Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[KAOS Agent]

Emma doesn't care about magic, she's the person who forgets it's part of her. It's not really part of instinct, her mind doesn't instinctively go there like with Rumple, or Regina.

 

I liked that this fit with the way Emma's Dark One persona manifests. She's not at all out to display her power or claim a bunch of vengeance, she just ruthlessly goes about fixing things for the people she loves. She gave Henry a second chance with Violet and she did the same for Hook by removing his memories while she worked to get everything set to remove the Darkness permanently. She even removed the baby from Zelena so that it wasn't killed by her Darkness removal. I kind of want a Dark Emma shade throwing moment where she tells her parents that even as the Dark One, she wouldn't hurt an innocent baby.

Edited November 23, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[mjgchick]

Since its Thanks Giving all I can think of is wee Emma going to sleep hungry.

Thanks a lot Regina, Rumple and Gepetto.

[Mathius]

I rag on Emma for her bad choices because I don't want to give her any special treatment, but I must still express my pity and outrage concerning the fact that so FEW of the other characters have done much of ANYTHING to help her.  Hook's been about the only one consistently trying to save Emma.  Otherwise, we have Henry who tried to help a few times (5x02, 5x06, 5x08, 5x10) but wasn't helpful an equal amount of times (5x01, 5x04, 5x05, also 5x10), Snow and Charming who really only tried to help her just ONE time in 5x04 and it backfired when they got sanded as a result, Regina who only truly assisted her when she asked for it in 5x05, and Belle, Robin, Rumple, Zelena, Granny and the Dwarves who have never actually helped at all, most of them just treating Emma like a villain to defeat rather than someone who needs help.

 

It is also mind-boggling that everyone is ready to accept Rumple as a hero and trust him and be hunky-dory with him (as opposed to locking him in jail the moment they were able to get their hands on him) just because he did ONE decent thing, away from most of them, and only for Belle who he saved plenty of times even when he was a villain, but Emma is met with distrust, anger and revulsion for doing FAR less evil than Rumple has.  These people are all completely insane!

Edited November 30, 2015 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

And none of them other than Hook tried to approach her to help her once they were in Storybrooke. Regina approached her to get help with the fury situation, not to help Emma. At the time when the whole gang was condemning Emma for not asking for help, they didn't even remember what little they'd done to help in Camelot. So they were mad at her for not asking them for help while they were avoiding her like the plague and treating her like she was a lost cause. They'd have had a lot firmer ground for their high horse to stand on if they'd approached her and she'd driven them away. But it seems like they were expecting a person who's used to being utterly self-sufficient and who's usually the one other people are asking for help to come to them asking for help while they were staying away from her, while she was the Dark One and full of crazy power. Would they have been able to keep the secret about Hook if she'd brought them in on it? And would they have been able to work with her on a plan to save her and him without the Zelena option? Or would it have just made them feel good to be consulted?

[KAOS Agent]

 

Would they have been able to keep the secret about Hook if she'd brought them in on it?

 

That was my sticking point. The entire show is based on the idea that Snow White can't keep a secret, so why the hell would Emma share it with her? These people continually screwed up in Camelot. They have never been particularly supportive of Hook. In my opinion, Emma was not wrong in isolating herself and trying to keep everyone out of it for their own protection. 

[Camera One]

It's not the Dark One.  It's the Emo One.

[mjgchick]

I'm still upset that Emma trying to fix her own mess makes her worse than Rumple who just tried to Kill Killian and Emma 4 months ago their time.

Team Emma even if she screwed the pooch with Hook. The only person who gets to stay mad at Emma should be Hook even if he was a butt last night to her as well.

At least Snow defended Emma's decision for 5 minutes. These people seriously need to talk.

[Faemonic]

With all the kudos for "Birth", does everyone give top marks to the Writers for making the REAL reason why Emma was reluctant to let go of the Darkness was because of her fear of the future, since this was a deeper character motivation versus a plot or "surprise!" motivation?  Does this show they have a true understanding of Emma's character and a true desire to explore her psyche?

I like when they get motivations wrong and cleared up. For instance, there's a bit of, "haw haw 'I know her' she said" to Regina, but Elsa was sort of projecting her own anxieties onto Emma too, and Frozen Swan still worked well after that (platonic or romantic--True Love's Handshake!)

 

I give cookies and brownie points to the writers for portraying something realistic as far as that goes, that different people will have different psyches.

 

But I'm not sure it's a collective push to understand Emma's psychological depth. What I'm seeing is that Emma's continuing to live a life of saying Orange and everybody acts as though she said Blue. That's going to make her really lonely. Almost two years of in-show time, and it's as though her cupcake candle wish might as well have never been wished! Being surrounded by family, friends, and lovers who constantly misunderstand her is a sad situation.

 

Ingrid laid part of it out in the interrogation room, for instance, but that went nowhere quickly. Hook, much as I adore him, needs to see Archie about a lot of things, but hasn't and apparently snapped and has been a butt recently...buttt that wouldn't be such a terrible problem, really, if Emma had family and friends to complain to about how much of a butt Hook is being. (And something something Dark One goop something under the influence.)

[YaddaYadda]

Emma can crush someone's heart, and I'll still be in her corner. These people, and Henry in particular need to basically fuck off. I think it's worst that Henry mouths off at her because he really has the power to hurt her.

 

It's like isolating herself, trying to fix a situation that became out of control back in Camelot makes her the worst person EVER. 

 

STFU Henry! 

[mjgchick]

What's worse is they all proceeded to leave a woman who has abandonment issues because some 30 year old woman had a grudge on a 10 year old who then was forced to put her newborn daughter in a tree so she can come back and save them. JFC. Henry defending Regina I get because it's a lost cause but Rumple just tried to kill Hook and your mother 4 months ago. The reason why your mom is the Dark One is his fault. She did all this to save all their asses. They better 

owe her in the end with going to the underworld to get Hook if that's why they go.

No one deserves a happy ending more than Emma because all she does is worry about everyone else. The one time she is selfish they can't stand it.

[YaddaYadda]

Henry defending Regina I get because it's a lost cause but Rumple just tried to kill Hook and your mother 4 months ago.

 

He put everyone in a freakin' book not 8 weeks before.

 

Then he got the darkness sucked out of him to save his life, and Emma took it on to save the mother he was praising, and everyone else in town, including Rumple's.

 

She sacrificed herself for the greater good, and along the way, she decided that she was going to be selfish for once in her life, and keep the man she loves alive, and she's being judged by a 13 year old, and the people she calls family.

 

*golf claps*

 

They are so ungrateful. And I sort of wish this would serve as a lesson to Emma to learn to live her life without running to everyone's rescue, but it won't. She will forgive, and forget. These people are gross.

 

She's down, let's kick her some more. She's miserable, let's pile on some more. How dare she choose love? How dare she choose the person that's stood by her, and has been her rock?

[snarkybelle]

They are so ungrateful. And I sort of wish this would serve as a lesson to Emma to learn to live her life without running to everyone's rescue, but it won't. She will forgive, and forget. These people are gross.

She's down, let's kick her some more. She's miserable, let's pile on some more. How dare she choose love? How dare she choose the person that's stood by her, and has been her rock?

 

They really are self-centered jerks with short term memory.  Maybe all those memory wipes aren't good for the brain.  And they were ineffectual.  Charming never got the magic mushroom.  MM only wanted to prove she was right but then spilled the beans to Arthur who made things worse for them. All their failures led Killian to being nicked by the sword.  Trust Zelena?  Shakes head.  

 

Whenever Emma gets dumped on by her family, I think back to the scene from Lost when Sawyer tells Jack that he met his father at a bar, three sheets to the wind and his father almost called Jack to apologize and tell him he was wrong.  It was one of the most moving scenes from the show and I always get a tear from watching that.  Anyway, Sawyer says to Jack, "Kids are like dogs. Knock them around long enough and they'll believe they did something to deserve it."  I think Emma has been knocked around too many times that she feels like she deserves this.  She doesn't.  She realized she never was nothing, that she deserves her happiness.  She needs to tell these incompetent so called heroes they will never understand her until they walked a mile in her shoes and make them realize how wrong they are to treat her so shabbily.  

[KingOfHearts]

That SDCC promo of Dark Swan crushing a heart looks pretty ridiculous now, doesn't it? It's like it was for a completely different show.

Edited December 2, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Kinda pathetic they felt the need to "tease" in such a misleading way.

[RadioGirl27]

I'm pretty sure it wasn't misleading at that time, and A&E just changed their mind later about what they were going to do with Dark Emma. Colin knew he was going to be the DO when he got the screenplay for Birth.

[Camera One]

It's galling they decided to have Emma become the Dark One without even knowing what they wanted to do with her.  Seems to support again it's always plot before character.

[Rumsy4]

Maybe the original idea was to have Dark Swan as out of control as Dark Hook. But they chickened out and split the outcomes between Hook and Emma.

[YaddaYadda]

They really are self-centered jerks with short term memory.  Maybe all those memory wipes aren't good for the brain.  And they were ineffectual.  Charming never got the magic mushroom.  MM only wanted to prove she was right but then spilled the beans to Arthur who made things worse for them. All their failures led Killian to being nicked by the sword.  Trust Zelena?  Shakes head.  

 

Whenever Emma gets dumped on by her family, I think Emma has been knocked around too many times that she feels like she deserves this.  She doesn't.  She realized she never was nothing, that she deserves her happiness.  She needs to tell these incompetent so called heroes they will never understand her until they walked a mile in her shoes and make them realize how wrong they are to treat her so shabbily.  

 

I think that's one of the things that got to me. So Emma is there sitting on her couch, being judged after she told MM and Regina that she turned Hook into a Dark One. So, we don't know if she told them the whole story, or if she kept it to Hook was dying, that's the only way I could save him. Considering that MM made Emma tea, or whatever, that usually takes about 2 minutes.

 

And when she gave them their memories back, Regina looked shocked, Robin was clutching at the side where he was stabbed, Snowing were looking at her with this expression. Her parents didn't move to go hug her, they didn't even say anything to her. Fine, they could've just smiled sympathetically at her.

 

The most interesting thing happened in 5x08 though, when Regina called Hook naive for believing what Emma said to him about doing this for him.

 

Woegina, take a sit, and shut the hell up! You and the sanctimonious two completely underestimated the depth of the feelings that exit between Emma and Hook. I think MM saw it because of a couple of things that she's said, but she ignored it, and David was probably always waiting for Hook to slip, and for Emma to dump him.

 

But really, joke's on them at the end of the day.

[Rumsy4]

David was probably always waiting for Hook to slip, and for Emma to dump him.

Totally agree. His overprotective dad act always irked me when compared to his attitude to Neal. Either be against both men, or trust Emma to make her own decisions.

[pezgirl7]

The most interesting thing happened in 5x08 though, when Regina called Hook naive for believing what Emma said to him about doing this for him.

 

Woegina, take a sit, and shut the hell up! You and the sanctimonious two completely underestimated the depth of the feelings that exit between Emma and Hook.

 

Not to get into fandumb wank again, although I kind of am... I thought it was funny how Regina's comments probably echoed what the SQ fans think about CS, and potentially could have even solidified their feelings. Like, 'Hey, Regina sees it too! Emma doesn't love Hook enough to do all of this for him.' Although at this point, after all the I Love You's, and Emma's tears, and her talk about their happy ending together, I don't know how anyone could doubt that she loves Hook.

[Dianthus]

There are none so blind as those who will not see. We're talking about a group of people who seem to think "Fine, you're being stupid" is more romantic than all the ILYs in the world. Going back to the Authoritarian Personality for a mo', some people actually want to be someone else's bitch. Just sayin'.  

[Shanna Marie]

I think that part of the problem with Emma and her family is that the writers gave their heroine a very complicated family, but they seem to hate writing relationship scenes unless they're necessary for the plot. So we get absolutely nothing to establish the family relationship and dynamics, and then suddenly we're expected to see them as such a close family unit that Emma not asking them for help and bringing them into her plans counts as a betrayal. You need to see the normal before you can appreciate the abnormal.

 

And then we get to the big problem that Emma's family has actually never been all that useful to her. In season one, her parents get a pass because they didn't know who they were (and then Mary Margaret was a better friend to Emma than she has been as her mother), and Henry was useful in terms of helping Emma find herself. Then there was a team effort in 2A, with Snow serving as native guide for the Team Princess adventure and figuring out the squid ink, while David and Henry worked things from their end to communication. After that, though, they've been more liabilities than assets. In 3B, Snow was so guilt-stricken about Cora that she started taking Regina's side in everything and was willing for everyone to risk death rather than let something bad happen to Regina. Henry took the Team Neal side, and Emma's concerns about Tamara were dismissed as jealousy over Neal. In 3A, things might have gone better if Snow and David had stayed behind because they didn't really contribute anything other than distractions. Emma's main role in beating Pan/getting off the island was capturing the Shadow, and it seemed to be her worry about Hook that spurred her to be able to light the trap. Once they were back, her parents disregarded her worries about Henry as jealousy and were more focused on urging her to date Neal, which delayed them from figuring out about the Henry/Pan switch until it was too late to stop the curse reverse.

 

In 3B, they cast the curse to get help from Emma, not to help her, and they seem to have done so without any plan for reaching her once it happened. Even if they didn't know why they cast the curse, they don't seem to have considered finding a way to contact Emma in the time they were back in her world. It took Neal sending a message to Hook to bring Emma back to them. Snow trusted Zelena, which enabled Zelena to get ahead of them. About the only help her parents offered was Snow finding the storybook when Emma couldn't. In the finale, it may have been Emma's feelings about her family that saved the day, but that was all on her and had nothing to do with the way they behaved or how they supported her. It mostly came about because Hook's support gave her a safe place to lower those walls and consider her feelings for her family. In 4A, her parents did more to tear her down than lift her up, adding to her fears about her magic, being okay with her giving it up, and then barely ambling to stop her, with Elsa being the one to save the day. David did help resolve the ice wall problem with Elsa, and Henry was willing to approach Emma during her magic freak-out, but that was about it. In 4B, they really took the cake, with Henry spending all his time obsessed with Regina's happy ending, Emma learning that her parents had so little faith in her that they resorted to doing magic on her when she was a zygote, and then they acted like every little thing was going to turn her dark. Again, it was Hook, not her family, that got her through it with sanity intact. Snow chose Regina's happy ending over potential danger and darkness for Emma when they found the door page. Henry does get points for spearheading the AU rescue.

 

Meanwhile, we still don't know for sure what Emma's family thinks about her relationship with Hook, the one person who has always been there for her. Snow doesn't seem to have said anything much. David goes from occasionally showing mild acceptance to acting like he thinks Hook is going to turn evil at any second. Henry was house hunting with Hook, which suggests he's accepted him, but their entire relationship took place offscreen, with the only positive thing we've heard him say to or about Hook being that he was a good sailing teacher (before that, he told Emma he wasn't okay with her dating Hook). We've never seen her parents acknowledge that this relationship was good for her or accept Hook as a member of the extended family. They seem to expect him to help deal with Emma issues, but I've never had the sense that they're really welcomed him. So I guess they kind of treat him like they do Emma -- go play Emma whisperer because we can't get her to talk to us, but otherwise what if he turns evil again, so we'd rather he not be around.

 

So now it's really rich that they're all acting betrayed because she didn't ask them for help in dealing with the man they've never acted like they accepted, when they've never done much of anything to help her, have usually been liabilities in things she's needed to do, and are seldom there for her while always expecting her to solve their problems. I'm pretty sure the writers aren't planning to write them that way, but that's what happens when you're afraid to write domestic scenes. It means that when things get tough, there's no established foundation for what the relationships are like when there isn't a life-or-death problem.

[KAOS Agent]

I don't even think you need to lay out the crappy family dynamics of the previous seasons to understand why Emma was going it alone in Storybrooke. Just look at how helpful her family was in Camelot. All they need is Emma to say that she was looking for their help in Camelot and they manged to spill her secrets, get brainwashed and in danger of handing the dagger to Arthur, get kidnapped and held hostage, controlled Emma with the dagger and took all the Saviour accolades and pushed her to save Robin at great cost to herself. And their crappy help managed to get Hook killed. Good job, Team Storybrooke! 

[Dianthus]

It's weird though, because in White Out it definitely felt like Hook had been (unofficially at least) welcomed into the family. He was clearly frantic to save Emma from the ice cave, David had a front row seat for his freaking out, and he was more a part of the aftermath than Snow, who only came in at the end.

[KAOS Agent]

I'm kind of side eyeing this show's hope mantra too. Emma is consistently called out for not having hope or being willing to have faith in people. Yet the minute she takes that leap and does try to have faith, she's judged for it. Which is it show? Is it only when other characters have hope that it's okay? The woman can't win. I'm not willing to fully support her choice to save Hook (though I understand it), but I do find it ridiculous that a character who has been told over and over again that she's wrong not to have hope has it immediately proven that hope is a terrible horrible no good very bad thing when it comes to her choices. Seriously, after this why would she ever be willing to take a chance on things again? Although I guess she does now have an excellent come back the next time Snow tries to shove a hope speech at her.

Edited December 3, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[mjgchick]

Emma's parents didn't even save Emma from the darkness. They got sanded, kidnapped and Hook ended up hurt after saving them. I can't.

[Curio]

I find it amusing how Jennifer Morrison seems to take every opportunity possible to remind reporters about the real reason she became the Dark One at the end of Season 4. Here's a recent Entertainment Weekly quote from Jen that just came out talking about the finale (don't worry, this quote isn't spoilery):

 

Even when [Emma] chose to take on the Darkness in the first place at the end of season 4, her decision to give herself up was: “Yes, Regina’s in danger, everyone’s in danger, but my son’s in danger.” Every decision for Emma since she’s been reunited with Henry goes back to her concern for him and never wanting to have to be separated from him and never wanting to hurt him again.

 

So during Comic Con, it was "Yeah, sure...Regina was in danger. But Emma needed to save the entire town." Now it's "Yeah, sure...Regina was in danger. But what Emma was most focused on was Henry." Never change, Jen. Never change.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Curio

[october]

Bless her.

[mjgchick]

LMAO Jen keeps it 100 and consistent.

[KAOS Agent]

There's been a lot of discussion about Dark Hook in his thread and I was wondering how that same stuff applies to Dark Emma. While she's not all psycho destroy the world like Hook, she's done some pretty cold stuff in Storybrooke. She's used Merida's heart to force her to try to kill Belle, she kidnapped Rumpel, she was planning the cold blooded murder of Zelena. And yet everyone is treating her like she's the same old Emma who's doing bad things. It's like there is zero understanding of what the Dark One is. It's not like they needed their memories to understand that Darkness consumed Emma. Prior to giving into the Darkness, they saw Grey!Emma almost crush a heart. Doesn't that signal that Emma is not all there? Weren't they just thinking that the day before? I don't understand the mindset of these people towards the Dark One. Why do they think leaving Emma home alone is a good idea? If she's untrustworthy why on earth would you not keep her under watch in some way? Why wouldn't she just go off on her own and try some other evil plan? She's lost her anchor in Hook. She's under the influence of terrible evil. Why would anyone think bitching at her is going to make any real difference in her actions? Why is her family acting like she's just a brat who needs a lecture and a timeout instead of someone who is mentally/emotionally compromised and quite capable of murder?

[Camera One]

They had Merida watch her.  Since she's the greatest archery expert in all the realms.  It was just a dumb and clunky way to get the heart of the truest believer to "get through" to Emma, Operation Cobra Part II and all that.

[Mari]

If Emma truly were the Second Evilest Ever--because Hook, obviously, has to come first, now--they would be in serious trouble.

 

The arrows can't kill her.   All she has to do is take a few arrows and hit Merida in the head with something.  We've learned from Zelena that you can cut off your hand, remove the cuff, and replace your hand.

 

Poof!  Instamagicked Dark Swan that might hold a grudge or two because they're a horrible family that can't seem to treat Emma like she's part of it, while continually judging her because she has trouble connecting with them?

[YaddaYadda]

She's under the influence of terrible evil. Why would anyone think bitching at her is going to make any real difference in her actions? Why is her family acting like she's just a brat who needs a lecture and a timeout instead of someone who is mentally/emotionally compromised and quite capable of murder?

 

My conclusion?

 

Emma's family doesn't know her at all. It's like the stuff that happened with Lily and Cruella didn't register at all with them. I can totally hand wave what happened with Cruella because it was an accident, and she was threatening Henry. But what happened with Lily, especially when she threatened her family? This was Emma who was allegedly devoid of darkness, who held a woman at gun point, and would have pulled the trigger because her parents were being threatened. And Emma wasn't even on speaking terms with them.

 

I think what gets to me is that they decided that Emma was gone because of what they saw her trying to do to Merida, or her pulling out Violet's heart. They didn't try, and approach her, asked her for her reasons, or anything like that.

 

Regina went to Emma because she needed help, and Henry went to Emma because she needed to be distracted for when they broke into her place, and wrote her off the minute things got hard.

 

Snowing don't know their daughter. Henry acknowledges her only if she's a hero. Regina projects her own power bullshit onto Emma.

[mjgchick]

I wonder if the writers forgot that you can't take Emma's heart out or if they just used Nimue because hello lead character of the series. Hook didn't even want to do it which still makes me think he's a lying liar that lies when it comes to his feelings for her.

[KAOS Agent]

I was thinking about the stuff that happens in "The Price" with regards to Emma isolating herself. Henry summons her, but when she tries to reach out and hold his hand, he pulls away. Regina tells her to get away from her son. If Emma was showing positive signs towards Henry, why is she the one being yelled at for pulling away? She came when he called and reacted nicely towards him. Regina flat out told Emma to go the hell away. Snowing never even bothered to try to talk to Emma. Hook went to her, but walked away because he wasn't willing to take her up on her offer. What Emma was offering Hook did not involve her isolating herself. So even if Emma is acknowledging that she pulled away, there were several instances very early on where she was offering something and the other party was the one who left. It's not that you can necessarily blame them for their reaction, but I do have issues with them throwing all blame on Emma for pulling away when they didn't even give her a chance to try to connect.

[mjgchick]

Emma made this big grand thing about her parents needing to pay and that's all it took for them to not talk to her. I can't with those two. Both Henry and Regina went to Emma because they needed her. I think the only people Emma was willing to let in were Henry and hook anyways. Like she said she didn't have some one to give her hope (points to her mom) and who would call her stupid (points to Regina.) Which is I guess what she wanted all along. That being said the writers did a disservice by not having Snow or David come see her at least once. This was the time we needed meddeling Snow White.

No one even thought of going to see what Emma is up to until Hook assembled Regina, Robin and Belle to go see what she was hiding in her basement. Why was Emma's parents not apart of this team?

[Camera One]

The writers were trying to once again impose a 'very special message' without actually writing a matching plot.  Their message was "a group effort is more powerful than one", except this has almost never been the case.  Almost every climax was resolved by some random person alone while everyone stood around doing nothing.  They knew they needed to make Emma's motivation "deep", so they went to their default "WALLS" and inserted a Disney special into "Broken Heart" where Henry pierced those walls and Emma learned a very special lesson.  

 

I was reading a tease from September for 5A which I responded to in the All-Seasons thread.  Adam said specifically they were interested in the two people who Emma became closest to, and those would be Hook and Regina.  That's why Snow and Charming were not allotted any scenes with Emma.  They're completely off the writers' radar, except when it's necessary to highlight how much Hook trusted Emma (compared to the parents), or how much Regina can understand Emma (compared to the parents).  

Edited December 6, 2015 by Camera One

[mjgchick]

But Regina doesn't understand Emma. The writers basically lied about Regina getting Emma as well. Everything Regina has thought about when it comes to Emma has been wrong and the only people Emma really wanted to be close with while being Dark Emma was Hook and Henry. She acted like Regina did something to her and Regina didn't really do shit until Hook told them about her basement. 

 

 

I don't get these writers when it comes to some things.

[Camera One]

No, she doesn't.  But the writers think she does.  Remember what they had Emma say in "Breaking Glass"...

 

Emma: Living in Storybrooke, I've got my son and my parents, and I love them.  But they can't always understand me.  They don't know what it feels like to be rejected and misunderstood, not the way I do, not the way you do.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

That the episode-that-shall-not-be-mentioned!! It doesn't exist. Nope.

[mjgchick]

It just sounds like she's talking to Hook or Elsa not Regina honestly. I almost feel like the writers were trying to give a certain fandom crumbs but Regina just doesn't get Emma. 

 

How can Regina get Emma when Regina assumes Emma has a darkness in her when all we've known about Emma is that she might not be Snow White but she's definitely not Regina. Emma's never cared for power like Regina does. Emma's never cared to see the bad in people (other wise she'd never befriend Hook and Regina.) Emma is the type who actually wants to help others even if they've screwed her over. She has way to much love to give which Regina doesn't have. She's still a bully even if she's a so called "hero."

Edited December 6, 2015 by mjgchick

[Rumsy4]

It was just established in the Show that Elsa and Emma relate to each other. And at the end of the episode, Emma was opening up to Hook about her precious mementos from her childhood. It's like the middle part of the episode belongs in some bizzaro-world. 

 

"They don't know what it feels like to be rejected and misunderstood"

From all the backstories we have got so far, literally half of Storybrooke knows how that feels. Regina really is a black hole of suck. This is the one episode where I really do think the writers were queer-baiting. It was even promoted as a big SQ episode. This episode, and Emma's obsession with Operation Stupid, made me think less of her. Every time Emma says "Regina is right" I feel she loses a few IQ points. Then, I have to remind myself of the "I am not nothing" moment. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

The thing I found irksome about the way Emma's family reacted toward her was that it was Arthur who told them that Emma's plan with Excalibur was to snuff out light magic, and even after they learned that Arthur was a lying liar who lied and they caught him trying to sabotage their spell to communicate with Merlin, they still believed that Emma was planning to snuff out light magic. They didn't even question it or reevaluate once they learned that Arthur had been lying to them. They (especially Regina) clung to that explanation even after Hook told them that Emma told him it had something to do with him. So they believed a proven liar over Emma herself.

[Rumsy4]

So they believed a proven liar over Emma herself.

 

Even a liar may speak the truth sometimes. And to be fair, Emma was not behaving in a trust-worthy manner. Much as I love Emma, everything is not Snowing's fault. 

Edited December 6, 2015 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

The biggest issue is that Snowing didn't do anything. We weren't given one scene where they went to Emma's and knocked on her door. We never saw them actually brainstorming ways to talk to her. They weren't even a part of the house breaking. Regina murdered Snow's father, Snow saw an entire village that Regina had massacred, she knew all about Regina's evil and she still never really gave up on Regina. The Snow we saw in "Birth" had completely given up on Emma because she was hiding out in her house. As I pointed out above, Emma did show some positive reaction when people tried with her, which is why it's so frustrating that they never showed her parents try. Emma was lonely and in pain. She's high on Darkness and not making the best decisions. If they'd shown her interacting with her parents and screwing it up, then I could better understand how they could just give up, but that didn't happen. I hate the writers so much for what they've done to Emma & her parents relationship simply by ignoring it.

[Camera One]

There's no way to explain it except for writer bias.  It is very difficult, if not impossible, to explain their inaction.  

 

I don't think it's that they don't care per se.  Snow and Charming said they wished Emma would come to them in "The Broken Kingdom" or somewhere around there.  The only thing I can think of to understand their response is that they were afraid Emma wouldn't want to see them and they thought they would make it worse if they pushed instead of Emma wanting to see them.  Which makes no sense, but maybe that was the lesson they drew from making things worse in Season 4.  I can see how Snow not giving up on Regina would be different in her mind that what's happening with Emma.  I think Snow and Charming see the Darkness as very black-and-white, literally a black goo which has invaded their daughter and possessed her.  I think they see the darkness as an alien mass inside of Emma, so to them, it's not a matter of not believing in Emma, but it's a matter of getting rid of the mass which has invaded Emma.  So in a warped way, they see Dark Emma as not really Emma, even though we viewers know she is.  

 

Hook and Regina, on the other hand, can understand the Darkness better since they have felt it within themselves so they have a less black and white view of it.  They know that even when Dark, they are still themselves inside, and can be reached.  So therefore, they do try to do the same with Emma.

 

I don't think this explanation makes too much sense either but I refuse to believe that Snow and Charming don't care about Emma, so I have to make up some explanation to not hate the show completely, which is easy to do if you have been watching solely for Emma/parents scenes for 10 episodes, and have literally gotten nothing.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I was thinking of the Jolly Roger scene where Dark Emma tries to replicate her first date with Hook. She tells him that she is better as the Dark One--not afraid, whereas before she used to be judgemental and push people away. Thinking back, this seems to be a reaction to what happened in Camelot with Hook.

When Emma blames her walls for lying about Excalibur to Hook, he walks away saying that it still did not make it fair. But she gets rejected in the present at the Jolly Roger as well, with him telling her he liked her the way she was and being the one to bring her walls down. Later when Hook regains his Camelot memories, he lashes out at her about her habit of pushing people away.

Poor Emma--she must feel like she can never get it right.

[mjgchick]

Yeah now that I think about it, Emma was probably over compensating from her telling Hook that she pushes people away. She still can't win. :(

[Curio]

When Emma blames her walls for lying about Excalibur to Hook, he walks away saying that it still did not make it fair. But she gets rejected in the present at the Jolly Roger as well, with him telling her he liked her the way she was and being the one to bring her walls down.

 

I think there's a difference between having legitimate walls that need to be lovingly torn down and using those walls as an excuse for something bad you did. I can relate to Emma a lot because I have those similar walls I put up, but as much as I love her character, she can't blame her walls forever, and I think that's the point Hook was trying to make with his "it doesn't make it fair" comment. It's a tough situation because we weren't allowed to see how normal non-dark Emma would have reacted in this situation, but what we did get to see was Dark Emma reacting poorly and creating lie after lie. I'm guessing that normal Emma would have been able to trust Dark Hook with Excalibur, but the darkness inside Emma gave her that extra sense of doubt which forced her to make the wrong decision and lie to Hook's face.

 

I've seen a lot of people discuss how Dark Emma is just normal Emma with an outfit change and lower voice, but I have to strongly disagree. Much of what Dark Emma did in Camelot, especially from the moment she turned Hook into a Dark One, has been hypocritical and slightly selfish. Last season in 4x03, we had normal Emma being pissed off at Hook for not listening to her wishes about him staying away from the Snow Queen. "I'm sorry I didn't listen to you today. I know you feel like you've got the weight of the world on your shoulders. But at some point, even though we're quite different, you've got to trust me." "That's what you think this is about? That I don't trust you?" Compare that normal Emma scene with Dark Emma going against Hook's wishes and not trusting him. She's clearly not thinking the same way she was when she wasn't dark.

 

Another example is when Hook was keeping the Ursula secret from Emma. "I know there's something about your past with Ursula you're not telling me, and that's okay. What's not okay is you lying to me about it." Or how Emma felt like she was going crazy when her parents were keeping the egg baby secret from her. "Ever since they came to town, my superpower's been going haywire. Like everyone, including my own parents, is keeping something from me." Normal Emma was furious with her parents for keeping a secret from her and she also scolded Hook about lying to her, but Dark Emma immediately kept Excalibur a secret from Hook. That's not the same Emma.

 

Dark Emma obviously hasn't been going around mwahahaha-ing and crushing hearts left and right, but to me, she's definitely a lot different than normal Emma. But honestly, I'm glad the writers have been able to make her a bit hypocritical because unlike Regina, Emma lying and trying to cover her tracks is actually being seen as a bad thing and something normal Emma wouldn't do, which makes me want to root for Emma to get rid of the darkness even more and I'll cheer when she finally gets back to normal.

[Rumsy4]

I fully agree with you, Curio. I was just piecing together the previous conversations between Hook and Emma based on what we know now. I'm sure part of 5B's journey for Emma will be her learning to not put up her walls whenever she feels insecure.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Rumsy4