Emma Swan: 1000% done with your infuriating optimism

[YaddaYadda]

So here's what I don't get—Emma supposedly had all the "darkness" sucked out of her and it went into Lily. But then they go and show a very young Emma stealing a candy bar from someone's pocket. Like, what the hell was the point of that entire egg baby plot if it didn't even affect Emma's character?

 

The Apprentice said that even though the darkness was sucked out of her, Emma would still need guidance in her life or all of this will have been for nothing.

 

She was a foster kid, bounced from home to home and apparently from state to state too (WTF!) and had no guidance whatsoever. There was never anyone who cared enough about her or loved her enough. 

 

Emma was a completely normal person and has done well for herself. She's grey, period.

 

I don't even get why they did that eggnapping with Snowing. If Lily had found Storybrooke and decided to fuck things up, then yeah, I'd get it. And maybe instead of going the direction of the QoD, that's what they should have done. Have Rumple find Lily, and bring her to SB. Nobody knows who she really is, she could've been boobie trapping the loft and the car and creating shit for everyone because she was on a vengeance streak and then Emma would've found out who she was and what her parents did. And they could've taken things from there.

[Curio]

The Apprentice said that even though the darkness was sucked out of her, Emma would still need guidance in her life or all of this will have been for nothing.

 

No, no, I get that. It's more like...why? As in, why god why?? Why did they bother doing the entire plot in the first place if it didn't even affect Emma in the end? Especially since it seems like they've completely dropped the Lily plot for the time being since she didn't go to Camelot with the rest of the gang. It all just seems like a waste of time and an excuse to make the Charmings look bad.

[Mari]

Because it wasn't about Emma. It was their attempt to make Snow and David more gray and complicated, surprise everyone, and provide motivation and doubt for the Maleficent story and at the same time drive a wedge between Emma and the Charmings, so that Regina could step up.

[mjgchick]

Honestly the only person I feel sorry for on this show at this point is Emma. Dark Swan can get as selfish as she want for all I care. I will be rooting for her to get whatever she wants.

You know what's sad? The writers could've made the eggnapping, making her the savior, having Neal/August make decisions for her life could be a great storyline for Emma because finding out that all these people were controlling her destiny or whatever this whole time must be frustrating to someone like Emma who is all about choices. Maybe that's why they like to have Hook talk about his relationship with Emma being about choices.

Nah I'm giving them to much credit. lol

[YaddaYadda]

Honestly the only person I feel sorry for on this show at this point is Emma. Dark Swan can get as selfish as she want for all I care. I will be rooting for her to get whatever she wants.

 

For sure. Emma has suffered much in her life and it's like the moment she's starting to find stability, love, her place in the world, this bullshit happens.

 

Emma can spit in someone's face, I wouldn't blink an eye. If she wants to be selfish, then so be it. She wants to be a bitch? Fine! She wants to snark at inappropriate moments? What's one more person, really?

[Camera One]

So Emma was a better/less nervous thief at 6 than she was at 13.  

 

She was a foster kid, bounced from home to home and apparently from state to state too (WTF!) and had no guidance whatsoever. There was never anyone who cared enough about her or loved her enough.

 

Yet she still developed a pretty strong moral code. Young Emma's attitude in the flashbacks from "Bleeding Through" and "Lily" indicates someone who wants to do the right thing, unless she was forced to.  So where did this underlying goodness come from in her life with no guidance? Before this reveal of the movie theatre, Emma stealing from the grocery store in "Breaking Glass" seemed to be her reluctantly stealing out of need, after running away.  But apparently, she was the serial Popcorn Thief prior to this.  Can't wait for the Season 7 episode when we realize Emma was Zorro between the age of 9 and 10 terrorizing the citizens of Gotham City.

[Curio]

Young Emma's attitude in the flashbacks from "Bleeding Through" and "Lily" indicates someone who wants to do the right thing, unless she was forced to. So where did this underlying goodness come from in her life with no guidance?

 

Why, she can thank her lovely parents and the egg-napping plot for that! (Ugh.)

[mjgchick]

Emma stole from people but she did always seemed to want to help others no matter what. It's one of the reasons why she's one of my all time favorite characters I guess. She didn't steal because it was something she craved or thought the rich didn't deserve the finer things. She stole because it was a way of living unlike Robin Hood who I still don't know why he stile things if I'm being honest.

[Mari]

True.

For both of our young Emma scenes, what she was stealing was food.  

[Camera One]

Popcorn is food but desperate hunger was not the vibe the scene left me with.

 

And with Robin remember his old adage... if you steal for yourself, it's thievery, and if you steal for others, you're a hero LOL.

[KAOS Agent]

A six year old who is often hungry and probably very rarely gets treats like chocolate would totally take advantage of the opportunity to take a candy bar if she thought she could get away with it. I don't think it signifies that a young Emma was a frequent shoplifter. Hence, her really, really crappy ability to do so as a teenager.

[mjgchick]

Praying to the tv gods these writers don't completely ruin our Ugly Duckling.

[YaddaYadda]

I think that's the whole reason they have Rumple there in scenes with her, whispering to her to do things that are contrary to what Emma would ever do. There are 2 people living inside of her. I thought the scene where she's sitting alone, with the dagger in front of her was interesting.

 

I don't think anyone realized that there's something that goes beyond embracing the darkness. She was surprised when Rumple came back. She has Excalibur, but it didn't look like she intended to do anything with it, until the voice started whispering in her ear...again.

 

I think that's the reason they're showing Rumple in those scenes. 

 

Motivation -- The darkness said so. The darkness controls actions. She's not strong enough to keep it at bay. Darkness manipulates her and she manipulates people. It's almost like a trickle down effect.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm a little frustrated that Emma finally gets to embrace her powerful magic effectively, and she can't because it'll turn her evil. I'm hoping after she gets saved she'll be more confident with it and start using it more regularly. We saw a little bit of it I'm S4, but I'd like to see more.

[mjgchick]

I bet once the darkness is gone her angst will not only be about how to get her loved ones to trust her again, trust herself and trust that her magic wont make her lose her damn mind. I hope even though she has all these powerful magic she doesn't lose her gun or yellow bug though.

[Camera One]

They never fully explored Emma being comfortable with magic before they abruptly interrupted with the darkness crap in 4B.  And now she's the Dark One and it's all about trying to keep from going all-out evil.  Just like they never had her process the potential consequences of the Curse being real before jumping right to everyone "waking up" at the end of Season 1, they never had her work out her relationship with her parents when their memories returned in Season 2 before throwing in potential love interests for her, they never had her deal with the situation with Neal and instead threw in the Tamara distractor, and they never had her truly consider the pros and cons of staying in Storybrooke vs. returning to NYC.  They always skip out before they get to the meaty parts.  So I'm assuming they'll jump to another contrived thing to deal with at the end of this arc... maybe she too will drink an infertility potion by accident and she will deal with potentially not having a child with Hook.  Who knows, but that's how these writers work.  I don't see much hope in them addressing all the actual interesting character conflicts that Emma still has to work out.  Clearly, they thought creating the new character of Dark Swan was more interesting than Emma herself.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Camera One

[mjgchick]

I don't know, Emma and Snow had that nice scene where she's crying because she sees what her parents wanted for her. She realized she did have people who loved her. She said she wasn't use to people putting her first. Snow told her get use to it. That's one of my favorite scenes of the series and it annoys me how we don't get stuff like that between Emma and her parents anymore. They give them angst but it's some of the most shallowest types of angst instead of actually working even further on her relationship with them. No wonder why half the fandom things Snow and David doesn't care about Emma. The writers would rather have them fret over Regina when it's Emma who is suffering. These writers are so weird.

[Camera One]

Unfortunately, that was just one scene.  The writers allot way more than that to Emma/Hook and Emma/Regina.  Heck, the emotional turmoil the writers brought up to the surface in "The Snow Queen" in terms of Emma's magic and Snow's fear of it was thrown aside with a phone call in "Smash the Mirror".  In 4A, 4B and probably now in 5A, writers use Snowing as a way to get Emma to a bad place emotionally but the emotional damage is "fixed" by Hook or Regina (eg. Hook gets Emma to not kill Merida in the 5A premiere, Regina gets Emma to not kill Lily in 4B... and what does Snowing get to do?  *crickets*  Oh yeah, make things worse.).  By using the parents as the ones causing the problems and not letting them help to remedy it, they are destroying the relationship at the altar of true love with Hook and true "friendship" with Regina.

Edited October 10, 2015 by Camera One

[regularlyleaded]

Here's a part of an interivew Jennifer did with Entertainment Weekly yesterday at NYCC. There's no spoilers, but she does talk some about how she's approached Emma's struggle with darkness and her take on the psychology of fairy-tales and how some of that research informs how she's playing Emma. I put the link here instead of the media thread because it's fairly Emma specific.
 
I always find it a pleasure to listen to Jen's interview because she's very eloquent and the fact that she puts a lot of time and research into playing every aspect of Emma comes through, and I truly appreciate Jennifer's portrayal of Emma all the more.

 

Nowadays, this show drives me up a wall, down the other side and to unleashing crazy, angry rants. But despite that, Jennifer as Emma remains as practically the only part of the show I still love. (Hehe, though maybe that's not a good thing? Because, really, the writing for this show has become consistently terrible, the morality is totally warped and, my god, I just want to be free from the crazy! ;)

Edited October 10, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[KAOS Agent]

I love that Jen puts so much effort into researching things for her character and was so excited to be at the New York Public Library reading the rare book collection. It's nice that five seasons in, she still loves her job playing Emma Swan. I do kind of want to pull her aside though and ask if she recognizes that the show resolved the entire 4A plot by having a woman trip over a bottle and having a glove fall off a shelf. Some people appear to be putting more thought into things than others. I'm just saying.

[FierceAfroChick]

Nowadays, this show drives me up a wall, down the other side and to unleashing crazy, angry rants. But despite that, Jennifer as Emma remains as practically the only part of the show I still love.

 

 

Emma is it for me too.  I adore Hook, but identify more with Emma's struggle and her story.  That's why it frustrates me to no end that she's still only had a handful of centrics compared to the other main characters.  I find her more compelling and complex than the villains the writers want us to fall in love with.

 

 

Because, really, the writing for this show has become consistently terrible, the morality is totally warped and, my god, I just want to be free from the crazy! ;)

 

 

I still can't believe they reread that script and thought "I loved you" was a good idea.  Especially when by their own words, Emma is still Emma.  If you have to defend/explain shit on Twitter than maybe you need to pay closer attention to those sort of details.

[Camera One]

Dark Emma is still Emma except when she isn't.  They need to keep it ambiguous as hell until their ultimate "reveal" probably in the second last episode of the arc.  This means there will likely be little to no coherence in Dark Emma's characterization until then.  She will be torn in one episode, and then completely not in another.  Heck, within the same episode, she was torn in one scene and completely not in the rest.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

I think the issue is really in the present. I mean in Camelot, we see the the voices in her head and how she is trying to cope with it.  It's in Storybrooke that we don't really know. She's having whole conversations with the voice in her head, then she's on the ship and she has an agenda, and she looks regretful here and there, but is she herself because the voice isn't there? Or is she being both?

 

I'm not confused about what's going on, but it also leaves a lot open to interpretation. 

[OnceUponAJen]

^So do all of you out there think that A&E are actually giving us little clues as to Emma's true nature while she's been dark-oned, unlike when they completely pulled Zelena as Marian out of a hat? No clues there at all! I mean, could Emma still be faking it, or at least just trying to keep damage to a minimum? Maybe she is more present than we think due to her savior status. She may be having to keep things from Arthur, or Arthur may have commanded her to silence about what happened in Camelot.

[YaddaYadda]

I don't know that Arthur asked her to keep anything secret just based on the way he reacted to the magic shroom when he saw it. He told David that it wasn't in the trunk, so it must've been put there afterwards. I think it confirms that he doesn't remember what happened the last 6 weeks.

 

I'm getting the impression that Emma is working a couple of different angles.

 

Hook can say however many times that he knows Emma, but Emma knows him really well too. When he asked her about the door in her house, she did nothing to quench his curiosity, or dissuade him trying to find out what she's hiding. He's a pirate for cripes sake, shit like this is in his blood. She knows he will try and find out what she's hiding. She had no reason to invite him in her house and leave him the hallway. She could have taken him into the kitchen, the living room, anywhere he wouldn't have seen that door, but she didn't.

 

So, yeah, she went on the ship to find something she could use to wake Rumple. I think she was genuine in her plea to him to trust her, and I get his reaction not to. It's a bit of a tug of war at this point between them and it's normal. Hook is not Belle. Belle lost herself in Rumple, in trying to be everything he needed, in trying to be his conscience, she enabled him and he betrayed her. I think this is all still very fresh in Hook's mind. 

 

I think she was really heartbroken, but it's fair game until she decides that she trusts him enough to wanna confide in him. His memory and everyone else's have been wiped. He doesn't know what happened and I think that makes him very wary.

[Camera One]

If in doubt, check Twitter.

[mjgchick]

Emma being so cocky about being able to hide things from Killian and her trying to get him on her side by distracting him with a great memory for them was so weird to see. She really does sound delusional thinking they can still work out like belle and Rumple leaving out that oh yeah Rumple was still a douche.

 

Him saying "Loved" crushed her though. You can tell when she tried to hide back those tears. On another show that would haunt her but on this show you just know once Emma is back to herself she'll be back to savior duty and wont have time to even breathe. We'll have her feel guilty once in a blue moon but this show doesn't allow these people to be human for a hot minute.

[KAOS Agent]

Emma can't talk about what happened. I'm fairly certain that someone used the dagger on her, so it's really twisting the knife (pun not intended) to have everyone yell at/blame her for not talking about things if she can't.

This is where the problems come in because we don't know what happened to Emma in the past. It puts the other characters in a position to blame Emma for things she didn't or can't do and sets her deeper into isolation & darkness. The problem of course is that Emma is acting badly, so there's no way to trust her. But betrayal/rejection are Emma's hot buttons, so the lack of faith in her should really, really negatively affect her post-darkness. This includes Hook and his "I loved you". Let's remove Hook from the equation and say that Snow told Emma that. Does it change how you would perceive Emma's feelings on the subject? Would Emma be justified in feeling rejected later? Does Emma, someone who has been repeatedly been rejected throughout her life, just forget it and move on or would she worry & obsess over every little action that her loved one disapproved of thinking they'll stop loving her if she screws up? It's not the genuinely good reason for Hook's action that's the issue here. It's understanding how this would affect Emma and expecting the reasonable consequences that should result given her character's background.

[Mari]

Emma did tell the Dwarves that she's learned that if your name is on something, you should make sure you have control of it. It made me wonder what directions she was given--as annoying as Regina's "fun" with the dagger has been, it doesn't seem like enough to do more than annoy Emma. At some point, she had to have been told to do something that she strongly objected to. She wouldn't be that bitter about it, otherwise.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Mari

[YaddaYadda]

It's understanding how this would affect Emma and expecting the reasonable consequences that should result given her character's background.

 

I agree if this were any other show. For the record, I do think Emma has been commanded not to speak of what happened in Camelot. That's why she's not answering questions about the door, or about what happened to Camelot.

 

After this is all said and done, we won't be looking into any of the emotional ramifications of what's just happened to her, especially if she has been turned into someone's puppet. Look at what happened with Rumple and Zelena. None of this was ever addressed.

 

"If something is on your name, hold on to it." That's a huge red flag. Emma entrusted Regina with the dagger. Making abstraction of episode 2, it sounds like the dagger has changed hands. I mean yeah, there are questions, but I think the main one really is what happened to Emma.

[Camera One]

Let's remove Hook from the equation and say that Snow told Emma that.

Wow, that would have changed everything.  Everyone would have brought out their ready-made "kill Snow now" placards.  

 

Maybe it's different since this is romantic love vs. family love.  Nothing should change the way a parent feels towards their child, but it is within Hook's right as a romantic partner to say that since Dark Emma is not Emma.

[Mari]

Wow, that would have changed everything.  Everyone would have brought out their ready-made "kill Snow now" placards.  

 

Maybe it's different since this is romantic love vs. family love.  Nothing should change the way a parent feels towards their child, but it is within Hook's right as a romantic partner to say that since Dark Emma is not Emma.

I'm going to respond in the relationship thread.

[mjgchick]

I probably would've been sympathetic towards Snow had she said that but yeah I don't think a parent who loves their child as much as Snow loves Emma would say that. The writers would have to actually work on Snow and Emma for once if she ever said that.

[regularlyleaded]

Just because I thought it was worth noting here:

That moment after Hook tells Emma “I loved you” (ignoring whatever overarching narrative issues or ramifications it should have) - It’s not just that you can see how crushed, and I'd go so far as to say devastated, Emma is by Hook’s rejection -- to Emma there is no Light Emma or Dark Emma, there’s just Emma. So in Emma’s mind she believes Hook’s rejecting her. But, there’s a moment before she looks back up at him, she looks like she’s going to fall part right then and there, but then an almost literal mask slides down over her face. It was like watching curtains come down. Emma looks back up at Hook, and I could almost see in her eyes Emma retreating further into herself, almost becoming smaller and smaller and more lost in that insane struggle between her better half and the darkness. It was heart wrenching for me to watch, but dayum....Jen is hitting it out of the park in these scenes!

I'm admittedly not a big fan of the Dark Swan storyline because I'm not one of those people that wants to see their favorite character turned evil so that they can be dragged through the mud for slights that are overlooked in others. I don't have a particular need to have that trope played out and their scenes turned into just this side of torture porn. But, with that said, Jen is just owning this turn of events. That inner struggle that Emma’s experiencing between good and dark is palpable in scenes like the one from last night and it's really a joy to watch the performance. So hey, a silver lining I suppose. Now, if only the writers had given the actors this type of material last season....

[FierceAfroChick]

I

 

 

Just because I thought it was worth noting here:

That moment after Hook tells Emma “I loved you” (ignoring whatever overarching narrative issues or ramifications it should have) - It’s not just that you can see how crushed, and I'd go so far as to say devastated, Emma is by Hook’s rejection -- to Emma there is no Light Emma or Dark Emma, there’s just Emma. So in Emma’s mind she believes Hook’s rejecting her. But, there’s a moment before she looks back up at him, she looks like she’s going to fall part right then and there, but then an almost literal mask slides down over her face. It was like watching curtains come down. Emma looks back up at Hook, and I could almost see in her eyes Emma retreating further into herself, almost becoming smaller and smaller and more lost in that insane struggle between her better half and the darkness. It was heart wrenching for me to watch, but dayum....Jen is hitting it out of the park in these scenes!

I'm admittedly not a big fan of the Dark Swan storyline because I'm not one of those people that wants to see their favorite character turned evil so that they can be dragged through the mud for slights that are overlooked in others. I don't have a particular need to have that trope played out and their scenes turned into just this side of torture porn. But, with that said, Jen is just owning this turn of events. That inner struggle that Emma’s experiencing between good and dark is palpable in scenes like the one from last night and it's really a joy to watch the performance. So hey, a silver lining I suppose. Now, if only the writers had given the actors this type of material last season....

 

She was simply amazing.  I never knew Jen had that much range; it was evident in the scene where she gave birth to Henry and a couple of others, but this season her chops are really shining through.

 

I was initially intrigued by the Dark Swan storyline, but I'm concerned she's become just some thing for Regina and Hook to react to.  This story seems to be more about them than Emma.  Granted, we're only three episodes in, but I'm not liking that she's being responded to as if she massacred a village and crushed an innocent bride groom's heart.  She's being treated like a foe to conquer rather than a loved one who needs help.   Yeah, Dark One and all that, but she's not terrorizing the town...chick is just chilling in her new house and working on her own agenda.   And yes, the memory wipe isn't cool, but compared to what she could do and taking into account her sacrifice, I don't think she deserves the kind of vehemence she's received...yet.  At least her parents are kinda sorta still in her corner. 

 

To be honest, I wasn't so thrilled with S4 Emma.  She seems to have lost a lot of the edginess she had back in S1 and parts of S2.  I know she's mellowed a bit because she found love (familial and romantic), but I kind of miss chainsaw-wielding, fuck-you-Regina Emma.  There was a scene last season where she was talking to Hook and she goes, "I like when people show me their good hearts" and I cringed.  Because it was kind of a corny, Belle-like thing to say and I thought she was being a bit too hard on her parents given that Hook was a few months removed from villainy himself and Regina had tried to kill her family on several occasions. 

 

Anyhoo, if girlfriend throws up deuces and decides to take a nice long vacation away from Storybrooke after she's de-Darked, I'm here for it.  And if she regains some of her S1 ovaries back because of all the shit she's been through, I'd be really happy. 

[YaddaYadda]

That moment after Hook tells Emma “I loved you” (ignoring whatever overarching narrative issues or ramifications it should have) - It’s not just that you can see how crushed, and I'd go so far as to say devastated, Emma is by Hook’s rejection -- to Emma there is no Light Emma or Dark Emma, there’s just Emma.

 

But that's the thing though. Hook has always seen Emma as just Emma. He didn't fall in love with her because she's the Savior, or because she has magic. He fell in love with her because of who she is with her walls and without her walls.

 

I think that he did manage to reach her behind the Dark One, but with all the head games she was playing with him as the Dark One, I thought it was a difficult scene all around. 

 

As far as Emma being the Dark One, she's been pretty mellow thus far, plus she's been the Dark One for like a total of 3 days maybe?

 

I can totally understand Hook's reaction to the Dark One. 

 

But Snowing have gone to the Dark One for deals back in the day. They've gone to him for assistance. Is that changed because it's Emma? This is what I don't get. (I'm not saying go and make a deal with her, that's not what I'm saying btw)

[PixiePaws1]

I agree if this were any other show. For the record, I do think Emma has been commanded not to speak of what happened in Camelot. That's why she's not answering questions about the door, or about what happened to Camelot.

"If something is on your name, hold on to it." That's a huge red flag. Emma entrusted Regina with the dagger. Making abstraction of episode 2, it sounds like the dagger has changed hands. I mean yeah, there are questions, but I think the main one really is what happened to Emma.

Wow...she has the dagger now ...does that mean that a command given by a previous owner stays in effect until specifically countermanded by current owner...or was following that command part of the curse? ???

[YaddaYadda]

Wow...she has the dagger now ...does that mean that a command given by a previous owner stays in effect until specifically countermanded by current owner...or was following that command part of the curse? ???

Based on 4x04, when Anna commanded Rumple not to hurt her and her sister before dropping the dagger when she gets poofed, I think the command holds.

[Mari]

In Snow, David, And Hook's defense, the last time they remember regular flavor Emma, she was begging them to find a way to save her from being the Dark One. After that, they remember her briefly from finding her, where she was clearly troubled and traumatized, but still their Emma, and still desperate to not be the Dark One forever.

The current Emma may not be killing people for entertainment while forcing the rest to build her a giant bower made of bones, but she's definitely not their usual Emma. Logically, it would make sense to evaluate the new Emma, but they are too emotionally tied to the situation to do that. I can understand their panic to "fix" her before she can't be fixed, or before she does something that she'd have to live with for the rest of her (hopefully not Dark Swan) life.

[Rumsy4]

One thing we need to remember is that Emma asked Hook if he loved her. She put him in an impossible situation. She was keeping him in the dark, and practically goading him by comparing herself to Rumple several times. What did she think he was going to say after seeing her playing mind games with him? It makes it look as though she almost wanted Hook to push her away. I know someone else made this point as well (sorry--can't remember who that was).

Her main, if not only, goal in that encounter was to figure out if Hook had anything with him that had touched pre-Dark One Rumple. Every word and gesture was directed towards that. In the scene at her basement cave afterwards, she tells Not!Rumple that she worked hard to get that sword. She looks cold and focussed on her goal. I'm not sure even those tears at the Jolly Roger were real or not. Maybe she didn't expect it would hurt. I think there are several layers and nuances to that scene.

[Camera One]

In Snow, David, And Hook's defense, the last time they remember regular flavor Emma, she was begging them to find a way to save her from being the Dark One. After that, they remember her briefly from finding her, where she was clearly troubled and traumatized, but still their Emma, and still desperate to not be the Dark One forever.

The current Emma may not be killing people for entertainment while forcing the rest to build her a giant bower made of bones, but she's definitely not their usual Emma. Logically, it would make sense to evaluate the new Emma, but they are too emotionally tied to the situation to do that. I can understand their panic to "fix" her before she can't be fixed, or before she does something that she'd have to live with for the rest of her (hopefully not Dark Swan) life.

Yes.  I find it interesting that Charming said that he wished Dark Emma would come to talk to them, and Snow said she wished so as well.  The only thing I can think of is, that Snow and Charming don't think it will help if they talk to Dark Emma, and they are afraid of making Dark Emma angrier, and making the situation even worse.  Maybe after the Snow Baby incident, they feel like they don't have Emma's trust anymore, so they are less confident than Henry or Hook about summoning or seeking Emma out.  They are hoping for Emma to seek them out when she is ready and able to accept them.  Since this is so passive, it makes it seem like Snowing is doing nothing (as usual).  But that's the only explanation I can think of which makes some sense.  The real reason is of course the writers just don't care about this relationship.  They had the chance to address it in a freak'in Charming centric, but they chose not to.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

One thing we need to remember is that Emma asked Hook if he loved her. She put him in an impossible situation. She was keeping him in the dark, and practically goading him by comparing herself to Rumple several times. What did she think he was going to say after seeing her playing mind games with him? It makes it look as though she almost wanted Hook to push her away. I know someone else made this point as well (sorry--can't remember who that was).

I said something along those lines in the Relationships thread. Also, it wasn't in the context of an honest conversation about their relationship. She had kidnapped him and offered him his freedom if he said he didn't love her, which seems like she was practically asking him to say that, so I don't think in that situation his answer says anything about his real feelings. Not to mention the fact that she wasn't being aboveboard with him when talking about her own feelings and their relationship, since she was there with a definite agenda and was using him, manipulating him to get him to give her the information she needed. But I did get the sense from all the subtle things going over her face and the way she acted in the aftermath that while she was stung by what he said, that was also kind of what she was hoping he'd say or needed him to say. She was testing him, and he passed the test, but it still hurt. Right now, her big-picture agenda, whatever it is, has to be more important than anyone's personal feelings, whether Hook's or hers, and I still do believe that her big-picture agenda is good rather than evil. If it were evil, would Head Rumple have popped up again? That only seems to happen when she's going against the Dark One's wishes.

[regularlyleaded]

That moment after Hook tells Emma “I loved you” (ignoring whatever overarching narrative issues or ramifications it should have) - It’s not just that you can see how crushed, and I'd go so far as to say devastated, Emma is by Hook’s rejection -- to Emma there is no Light Emma or Dark Emma, there’s just Emma. So in Emma’s mind she believes Hook’s rejecting her.

I said the above and in response there's been some "in defense of Hook" posts. I wasn't trying to assess blame to Hook. The man is just reacting with the well of emotions that he has in him, and all the hurt and confusion he's feeling, and no one is blaming him for feeling that way. He also can't enable Dark Emma because that will lead to nothing good, so, I get it. Hook is hurt, he feels like he's lost his love and I feel for the guy. Really, I do. Here's another blanket to wrap him in *throws blanket at screen*. But with that said, I think a lot of time has been spent looking at things only from Hook’s POV and evaluating the situation from his POV, and so I think Emma’s/Dark Emma’s POV has gotten somewhat lost. And, because this is the Emma thread, not the Hook thread, I want to talk about Emma ;)

 

The point I was trying to make with the quoted text above is that, IMO and based on the info at hand, in Dark Emma’s mind right now, she sees herself as this new being. In her mind she’s Emma 2.0 and she thinks that Emma 2.0 is better. Yes, we all know that being The Dark One isn’t being better (the total opposite of being better, in fact), but the point is that she doesn’t see it that way. (And BTW, how broken must regular Emma feel deep down inside for the darkness to make her feel like she’s now a better and healthier person? That’s so very sad.) Dark Emma doesn’t see being Dark Emma as a disadvantage or as bad, she sees it as an improvement, and so she really does think that it’s possible to have her relationship with Hook continue as it was, that’s why she brings up Rumbelle. She’s not goading Hook. She's trying to seduce him to her way of seeing her new self, and she’s been trying to seduce Hook since back in 5x02 when she had no ulterior reason other than she wanted to be with him. Dark Emma really believes herself to be better and that she can have a relationship with Hook. And I think that’s the point that’s being lost.

 

Yes, Hook loved Emma as Emma. He didn’t care about her as The Savior, or Fairytale Princess, or whatever. He saw beyond that and loved Emma for herself. But that’s no longer the case. From Dark Emma’s POV, Emma’s simply got a new alter ego to add to her many others, and so she asks Hook if he still loves her because she hopes that just as he saw past The Savior and Fairytale Princess and loved her he can still do that now. But unfortunately for Dark Emma, Hook doesn’t see her as Emma anymore. He doesn’t see her as new, improved Emma (which she isn’t improved, but again, I’m speaking from Dark Emma’s point of view), he sees The Dark One. Hook is practically repulsed by the mere notion of being with Emma 2.0/Dark One Emma. He can’t stand to be touched by her, and so he pushes back - hard (and he has every right to do so). And that’s the problem with Hook’s response of “I loved you” (past tense) to her asking him if he loves her because from Emma’s POV his love for her has now become conditional and also a thing of the past.

 

From Dark Emma’s POV, all the times he didn’t care who or what she was because he loved just Emma, that’s now gone. She wasn't trying to push him away, she legitimately thought he could care for her as Dark Emma. And that’s what Emma was responding to when she looked so crushed and devastated by his response. We’ve been told by the actress and the writers that she wasn’t faking it, so I think at this point it’s silly to argue otherwise. Emma was hurt by Hook’s response, period. And that’s what’s heartbreaking for me with regards to Emma. And as KAOS Agent pointed out upthread, realistically, Hook's "I loved you" should have ramifications to their relationship forever, because even once Emma is undarkened, she will have been changed by that experience and she will never be regular old Emma again. But yes, TS;TW;Calvinball rules. The chances of any of this actually having consequences past the 5A arc are zero to none. 

As to Dark Emma returning to her house and carrying on with her plans, I don’t see how that shows that she was faking her feelings of hurt. Regular Emma (without the Dark One curse) has an immense capacity for shoving her feelings deep down inside and carrying on with her mission as if nothing has happened. We’ve seen her do it for the last four seasons. Emma has always been great at masking hurt, so I don’t see how Dark Emma is any different in that regard. I don’t think it’s an indicator she’s become heartless because she went about her plan afterwards. Being the Dark One doesn’t mean she doesn’t have feelings. Heck, even with DO Rumpel I never questioned the mans capacity to feel and have emotional responses. Dark Emma is not any less capable of feeling.

 

 

She had kidnapped him and offered him his freedom if he said he didn't love her, which seems like she was practically asking him to say that, so I don't think in that situation his answer says anything about his real feelings.

This is better discussed in the Hook thread or the relationship thread, but quickly I will say: I think Hook was being absolutely truthful in his response. His "I loved you" is the raw, God's honest truth, and as painful as it was for Emma to hear (and for some of us in the audience) I love how honest he's being with her. I think he was feeling too emotional to be anything but honest with her. And I don't think Hook considered himself a prisoner or felt that he was truly in danger of being locked into a dungeon somewhere. I think he was just plain hurt and had had absolutely enough of Dark Emma and wanted to leave but knew that they were underway, so his options for leaving the conversation was either jumping overboard or getting her to leave. He got her to leave. As much as Dark Emma got the object she wanted to awaken Rumpel, in the emotional context, Hook ended that conversation on his terms.

Edited October 13, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Rumsy4]

Yeah--I can't really buy into the idea that Emma was keeping Hook her prisoner. She did want to be in control of the situation, and was doing her best to manipulate Hook, but she wasn't going to hurt him if she had not got what she wanted. 

[YaddaYadda]

Two questions:

 

1. Would his answer have been different if she hadn't been so blatantly trying to manipulate him 2 seconds before? I have no doubt that Emma left the ship brokenhearted. I wonder if some part of her wasn't expecting this too on some level. She even dredge up the whole story book mess, and she was showing him how to sword fight which is the thing that made him snap.

 

2. What if he comes out and says "yeah, I love her" which we know he does, "but I refuse to be manipulated."

 

Yeah--I can't really buy into the idea that Emma was keeping Hook her prisoner. She did want to be in control of the situation, and was doing her best to manipulate Hook, but she wasn't going to hurt him if she had not got what she wanted.

Yeah, she was no danger to him. I think the ship was a in lot more danger of getting crushed to dust than Hook ever was. She loves him. If she didn't, she wouldn't have cared what his reply to her was.

 

If Emma can look like herself, why is she choosing to look the way she does? She can walk around in her normal clothes, with her face scrubbed clean, her hair looking normal. Why is she choosing to look part zombie?

 

Also, about the "date" look. The show really needs to drop the fake eye lashes for JMo. She doesn't need them, especially not the dollar store variety they keep putting on her.

[Shanna Marie]

Yeah--I can't really buy into the idea that Emma was keeping Hook her prisoner. She did want to be in control of the situation, and was doing her best to manipulate Hook, but she wasn't going to hurt him if she had not got what she wanted.

I don't think she would have hurt him, and I don't think he thought she would hurt him, and she let him go awfully easily, so he was never in any actual danger, but he was totally at her mercy and under her power, and she set up the situation to be that way. That's why I'm a little less sympathetic about her hurt feelings. She may have been honest about a lot of the things she was saying to him about feeling like she was better and stronger and wanting him to love her the way she is now because that's who she is, but she was having this conversation in a context in which the only power he had was whatever emotional impact he might still have on her, where she was totally in control of the situation and was using every emotional trick in the book to manipulate him and keep him off balance, and where his only escape path was to dive overboard (if she'd let him do so). I'd have more sympathy if this scene had taken place while the ship was at the dock, or if she'd walked up to him to talk in a place where he had at least a sense that he might be able to walk away if he'd wanted to, and if she hadn't set up the situation in the first place to get something she needed from him. It would have been totally different even if she hadn't had another agenda, even if she'd done all these things and it really was just about her wanting to talk to him and make him see that this is who she is now. Then I'd have been a lot more sympathetic to her hurt from rejection. But she has less room to feel hurt when she was the one who did all this in large part to get something from him.

[FierceAfroChick]

I said the above and in response there's been some "in defense of Hook" posts. I wasn't trying to asses blame to Hook. The man is just reacting with the well of emotions that he has in him, and all the hurt and confusion he's feeling, and no one is blaming him for feeling that way. So, I get it. Hook is hurt because he feels like he's lost his love and I feel for the guy. Really, I do. Here's another blanket to wrap him in *throws blanket at screen*. But with that said, I think a lot of time has been spent looking at things only from Hook’s POV and evaluating the situation from his POV, and so I think understanding from Emma’s/Dark Emma’s POV have gotten lost. And, because this is the Emma thread, not the Hook thread, I want to talk about Emma ;)

 

*nods head vigourously*  I want to be able to stan for/talk about Emma in the Emma thread, not read 101 in-defense-of-Hook posts, but I didn’t want to come off the wrong way so I kept mum.  Thank you for saying it.

 

The point I was trying to make with the quoted text above is that, IMO, in Dark Emma’s mind right now, she sees herself as this new being. In her mind she’s Emma 2.0 and she thinks that Emma 2.0 is better. Yes, we all know that being The Dark One isn’t being better, but the point is that she doesn’t see it that way. (And BTW, how broken up must regular Emma feel deep down inside for the darkness to make her feel like she’s now a better and healthier person? That’s so very sad.) Dark Emma doesn’t see being Dark Emma as a disadvantage or as bad, she sees it as an improvement, and so she really does think that it’s possible to have her relationship with Hook continue as it was, that’s why she brings up Rumbelle. She’s not goading Hook. She’s been trying to seduce Hook since back in 5x02, when she had no ulterior reason other than she wanted to be with him. Dark Emma really believes herself to be better and that she can have a relationship with Hook. And I think that’s the point that’s being lost.

 

Exactly.  It’s why I think he didn’t really fail her in Camelot.  Everything she’s done says, agenda aside, she’s still in love with him and wants to be with him.  I guess this is part of the selfishness Jen was talking about…she feels like she’s in a better place so she’s no longer going to deny herself the things she wants and man…she really wants (wanted) Hook.

 

He doesn’t see her as new improved Emma (which she isn’t improved, but again, I’m speaking from Dark Emma’s point of view now), he sees The Dark One. Hook is practically repulsed by the mere notion of being with Dark One Emma. He can’t stand to be touched by her, and so he pushes back - hard . And that’s the problem with Hook’s response of “I loved you” (past tense) to her asking him if he loves her. From Emma’s POV his love for her has now become conditional and also a thing of the past.

 

And this is why I was so pissed about that “I loved you”.  I also think it’s significant that she’s reaching out to Hook and not her parents…she needs a lifeline to keep her from further slipping into darkness and he was it.  I don’t care who else he tells about his true feelings, I care what he says to Emma.  I would love to see her call him on this once she’s no longer dark, but they always gloss over significant emotional moments like this.

 

As to Dark Emma returning to her house and carrying on with her plans, I don’t see how that shows that she was faking her feelings of hurt. Regular Emma (without the Dark One curse) has an immense capacity for shoving her feelings deep down inside and carrying on with her mission as if nothing has happened. We’ve seen her do it for the last four seasons. Emma has always been great at masking hurt, so I don’t see how Dark Emma is any different in that regard. I don’t think it’s an indicator she’s become heartless because she went about her plan afterwards. Being the Dark One doesn’t mean she doesn’t have feelings. Heck, even with DO Rumpel I never questioned the mans capacity to feel and have emotional responses. Dark Emma is not any less capable of feeling.

 

Yes, yes, yes. 100 percent in love with your whole post.  Feel free to drop the mike.

Edited October 13, 2015 by FierceAfroChick

[regularlyleaded]

I don't think she would have hurt him, and I don't think he thought she would hurt him, and she let him go awfully easily, so he was never in any actual danger, but he was totally at her mercy and under her power, and she set up the situation to be that way.

[...]

Then I'd have been a lot more sympathetic to her hurt from rejection. But she has less room to feel hurt when she was the one who did all this in large part to get something from him.

But it was a situation that Hook willingly walked into. Hook didn't have to show up, but he did. She wasn't holding anything over his head to force him to come. Hook went because he had just as much of an agenda as she did. Hook wanted to talk to her, he wanted to figure out what she was up to, and he wanted to know what's behind the door. When he asks her about what's behind the door Hook adds "You know I want to trust you, Emma, so why don't you help me out". He's trying to manipulate her as much as she was trying to manipulate him. I don't lack sympathy for Hook even though he clearly went to the meeting of his own free will with an agenda, so I'm not gonna feel any less sympathy for Emma being hurt even though she had an agenda as well. It sucks for them both. (ETA: I really should've taken this to the relationship thread, but too late now!)

 

Dark Emma set it up as a date on his ship because she thought it would be romantic and she's trying to seduce him to accepting her as she is now. Again, from Dark Emma's POV she doesn't see why they can't pick up where they left off. She thinks she's just a better person, so what's the big deal. Ya, it's really, really messed up thinking that she thinks she's a-okay like this, but that's why she was trying to replicate the date. It wasn't so she could hold him prisoner and I don't think Hook believed she would try to hold him prisoner either.

Edited October 13, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[Mari]

The thing is, I don't think it has to be an either/or situation.

Emma loves him, and she is not behaving in a way that indicates he did anything terrible to her in Camelot. It makes total sense that she would want to be alone with him and hopefully reconnect.

It's also makes a lot of sense that she wanted something he had, or suspected he had and wanted to be in control of the situation.

I think it was a case of two birds/one stone. She made herself a date with Hook, pushed for the information she wanted, anyway, and in the meantime made sure they were alone--and being alone serves a dual purpose. If her intention to reconnect works out, it's romantic alone time. At the same time, if for some reason he rejects her, it keeps her in control of the situation and him off balance, which makes it easier to get the information and item she needs.

But, I think while it had occurred to her she might get rejected--he wasn't enthusiastic the episode before--I don't think she truly thought it would happen. She was too sure of his affection, so when she pushed the relationship talk, she got answers she didn't really expect, and was a lot more hurt than she'd thought Hook would ever inflict.

It's the kind of behavior that makes perfect sense if you have altered perceptions; you think you are behaving and planning perfectly normlly, or often better than you were before, and really your plans have giant W. E. Coyote holes in them you can't see, and the people paying attention to you start to notice behavior twitches and glitches that weren't there before.

I've wondered if Dark Emma thought embracing the Dark One thing would numb emotional pain, which obviously didn't happen completely, and the people around her are reinforcing her worst fear--she's being rejected and she's not loved.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Mari

[KAOS Agent]

Personally, I think Emma is riding the edge of sanity at this moment. My biggest problem is that we and her parents and Hook don't know what it was that caused her to go fully dark. We also aren't sure whether she can speak about what happened or if she's under a compulsion from the dagger or something like that. So while appreciate the show allowing Hook to yell at Emma to just bloody tell him what happened and to quit playing games, there's this whole thing boiling under the surface that upsets me about it because if Emma truly can't talk all of this is hurting her in ways that no one can see.

It's not any character's fault for reacting badly to Emma being a bitch and desecrating sacred relationship moments while playing games (what a mind fuck to have someone who looks like the person you love with you, while they act so horribly and destroy the memories you hold dear), but all I know is that Emma was being driven insane by having evil in her head 24/7 (something she has actual conversations with) and now she thinks she's better and sees clearly. How long did she fight the insanity? How much more pressure was put on her in Camelot to fix other things that led her down a darker path. If her final fall into the darkness was another sacrifice to save Hook's life, how much harder would it be to see that she's lost him anyway? Is this the point where she just gives up? All of her interactions are missing context and it bothers me. There's a hell of a lot of emotions and motivations on Emma's side that we're missing because no one knows what happened.