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All Episodes Discussion: Use Your Words,Please

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Shudder.  If I had Lana on the brain I would be screaming too. 

I hated her character so much at one time.  Oh the terrible glee I got from watching her poor little pinkness get stomped on by that horse.  I stopped hating her I think around season 4.  Hate takes too much effort and the crazy possessed by a witch storyline was too stupid to take seriously.  I think that's when I sunk into long term apathy punctuated by a lot of eye rolling and sighing. 

Hmm, or maybe that was when I got someone new to take my frustration out on. 

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Smallville: Such potential. That was never realized.  The character of Clark Kent was rich with history from which good stories could be told.

I think I'm the only one that loved the first season--with the freaks of the week storylines.

Hated/Loathed Lana and her self-righteous, sanctimonious, butter-wouldn't-melt in her mouth attitude. But I really, was really squicked out that a 14 year old freshman was dating a senior when the show started, and it was implied that they had been dating for some time. Since when? Since she was 12? And Whitney 15? Yuck. Gross.

The Lana Lang of Superman: The Animated Series was eons and eons better than this pwincess, who could only whine about her dead parents. Oh, didn't you know? They were killed! By the meteor that brought Clark to Earth! Oops! Was I supposed to put that in spoilers?

Michael Rosenbaum kept me a faithful watcher for seven years. Him and the prettiness that was Tom Welling. And Allison Mack. And Bo Kent, also known as Jonathan Kent, played by John Schneider.

I detested and hated that I got Lois, who was NO Lois by any means, shoved down my throat. A more obnoxious, grating character I've never met. I think I hated Lana just a wee bit more.

It also didn't do the show any favors that JL/JLU were airing at the same time! I couldn't avoid comparisons! What I did love was hearing Rosenbaum as Wally West's Flash, while he was Lex here. And then there was "The Great Brain Robbery", where Rosenbaum got to voice Lex, and Clancy Brown, as Flash. Arrrrgh! I can't link text to the url, so here you go...

 

When I heard they were going to do Doomsday in Season 8, my rage knew no bounds. I hated the show by the time season 10 rolled around.

Edited by Lisin
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Oh the terrible glee I got from watching her poor little pinkness get stomped on by that horse.

Oh, what good memories you just brought back!

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When I heard they were going to do Doomsday in Season 8, my rage knew no bounds

 

I  know they emo'd Doomsday all up and that they whole point of Doomsday was just to have a virtually unstoppable monster come and pummel Superman into the ground, I get that but...

Until the final what, twenty minutes of Doomsday, I actually grew to love the Doomsday plot.  I loved Witwer, I loved the moral dilemma both Clark and Chloe faced, I loved that Davis was fighting so hard against his darkness, I loved that Brainiac was pulling all the strings (I still blame the Chimmy wedding on that) I loved how batshit crazy Tess was about making Clark fight Doomsday and I loved that in the end Clark figured out a way to save Davis. 

And then all the characterization done for the entire season was chucked out the stained glass window in favor of Davis embracing evil.  If they were going to mess with the Doomsday story, they should have had the guts to turn it on it's head and do something new and different.  Agh!! They could even have hinted that it was this act to save Davis that created the comic book Doomsday, set to arise at  a later date to beat the living tar out of Supes.  But oh, that might mean not following cannon.  RIP Henry. 

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When I heard they were going to do Doomsday in Season 8, my rage knew no bounds.

I wasn't enraged, but I do remember thinking the idea was silly, and they would never be able to pull off whatever it was they were trying to do. Then I ended up feeling like this. 

I actually grew to love the Doomsday plot.  I loved Witwer, I loved the moral dilemma both Clark and Chloe faced, I loved that Davis was fighting so hard against his darkness,

Really, considering it's Smallville, I'm amazed they took an idea that sounded so silly to me and completely managed to change my mind. And it didn't take long, either. I think by the end of Davis's first episode, I was thinking, "Hey, this storyline might actually work." 

Of course, part of that is because of Witwer. With another actor, I might not have been drawn in so fast. Still, I actually think the writing for that storyline was pretty good, especially for SV. They made me care about Davis, and what was going on with him, and what the other characters were going to do, and I was actually invested in how things would turn out.

And then this happened.

And then all the characterization done for the entire season was chucked out the stained glass window in favor of Davis embracing evil.

Really, until the last 15 minutes of that storyline, I thought SV was finally going to pull off a really decent, long story arc that was going to leave me feeling satisfied. Even with how it ultimately turned out, I think it was one of the best storylines SV ever did in terms of a) it mostly making sense from beginning to end, and b) me caring about it.

Edited by Bitterswete
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Sooo . . . Grant died. He died. Does NOBODY care besides Lionel???

 

 

It felt like somehow nobody knew he died, no not died, murdered.  He was the editor of one of the world's most well known and respected newspapers (still inexplicably located in Kansas but oh well) and somehow he didn't get so much as a short Obit?  I was never a fan of Grulian but the character served his purpose (hiring Lois?? Loving UFO's??  Orgasming over steak??  Making Lex look petty and evil?) and then he was discarded. 

 

I shouldn't have been surprised.  Dropping plot points was Smallville's special skill. 

Edited by BkWurm1
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I'm sure it's just because I'm totally into Supernatural after missing out for lo these many years,and have become only a little bit obsessed with Jensen Ackles, but I had kind of forgotten about his role as Jason Teague. So for the fun of it, I rewatched s4 and I'm disappointed that they couldn't give him a better ending or a better beginning that matched his ultimate demise.  Once he turned into evil Jason  and became frienemies with Lex and went on adventures with him, Jason became 1000% more interesting.  Too bad they didn't make him villainous from the start.  But I liked Jason Teague all in all and he somehow made Lana semi-tolerable too.

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But I liked Jason Teague all in all and he somehow made Lana semi-tolerable too.

 

I agree.  I think Lana was a much better character when she wasn't written as a direct part of Clark's story.  Less whispery, less secrets and lies, less manic darting, doe eyes.  They never should have IMO restarted the Lana and Clark fling at the end of season four and they most certainly should not have restarted it in season seven.  I was actually not hating Lana apart from the silly witch connected to the Kawatche caves thing until they made Lana look super terrible when she  pulled her  back up boyfriend thing on Jason.

 

My problem with Jason was that they went out of their way (the show) at  his introduction to make it clear that Jason was NOT evil or in some kind of cahoots with his mother and then suddenly he was???  If he was supposed to be evil, let him be evil.  If he was supposed to be good, let him be good.  If he was supposed to go from good to bad then don't try to retcon that he was always bad.  Very frustrating. 

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I'm sure it's just because I'm totally into Supernatural after missing out for lo these many years,and have become only a little bit obsessed with Jensen Ackles, but I had kind of forgotten about his role as Jason Teague.

 

I liked Jason. As a character in his own right, he was sweet, charming, and just likable. And being around him did make Lana more likable too. She seemed so normal and natural around him compared to how she was around Clark.

 

If he was supposed to go from good to bad then don't try to retcon that he was always bad. 

 

I would've been perfectly fine with Jason snapping under the pressure of everything that was going on and doing a lot of the same things he ended up doing. Or with his mother threatening him and somehow forcing him to do her bidding. Both storylines (or a combination of the two)  would've worked given the actual, pre-retcon stuff we saw with his character.

 

Instead, the writers decide that, despite everything we saw onscreen that said otherwise, he had been evil and working for his mom all along.

 

It just seemed so unnecessary. And it felt like the writers either a) didn't think the show's audience was bright enough to remember all of the "Jason isn't evil or working for his mother" stuff they did earlier in the season, or b) they were too lazy to write Jason turning to the dark side in a way that didn't contradict the earlier stuff. They knew viewers would notice the retconning, they just didn't care.

Edited by Bitterswete
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I'm about three eps into Season Eight, and no mention of Kara . . . and Clark's mom never checks in on her kid, I guess.  I am enjoying season eight a bit more than previous seasons so far.

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Not only did Clark not zip down to give his mom a hug, it comes off like he doesn't even call her! I swear the only person who remembered Martha Kent when she left the show was Lionel Luthor and then he did his swan dive so so long Ma Kent.

She does resurface in 9 but yeah, one of my big pet peeves on this show is the out of sight out of mind mentality they had toward characters. Does it hurt to throw in an offhand mention?

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I'm enjoying season eight so far. A lot of "Whaaa???" moments - like Chloe killing a guy! I like the focus on Lois/Clark, even if they are being really obvious about it, and Ma Kent sent Clark a care package! I like Tess and enjoy seeing more of Oliver. I could care less about Chloe/Jimmy - so boring to me. I also like the new ambulance dude, and interested to see what they do with him.

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I maintain it was Brainiac that killed the guy. He had a plan and a time line and Sebastian's revelation would have messed every thing up and sent Clark into hiding. Close looks visibly confused outside his hospital room and there where other hints in season eight that she was losing time.

It's never completely confirmed or completely denied but it doesn't fit Chloe and it doesn't fit how she and Clark had handled all the other meteor freaks that discovered Clark's secret. He was just another guy bound for Belreeve. There was no need to kill him... Unless you are a overreacting cybernetic life form.

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Finished season eight. Probably one of the seasons I enjoyed a bit more than others, except for the stretch in the middle with Lana. Why they chose to end the Clark/Lana relationship that way, I will never understand. I was disappointed in how Doomsday ended, I liked the Davis character. Stiletto was an incredibly ridiculous episode. I did enjoy the Chloe-becomes-Lois episode, for the laughs. Will continue on to season nine . . .

But one thing ... Jimmy Olsen wasn't Jimmy Olsen? He was Henry? Weird.

Edited by Moviesnob
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I was disappointed in how Doomsday ended, I liked the Davis character.

 

The feeling was shared by a good majority of viewers and is still often referred to as Failsday. I honestly thought the show couldn't mess the Davis Bloome storyline up.  It seemed so clear that the unexpected twist should have been saving the man from that monster but instead they gave me the most rage inducing ending ever.  Davis being pure evil is at odds even with the first 2/3rds of the episode.  Still not sure what the GA and his little turncoats had planned before Chloe split Davis (which was Clark's plan so how dare you get all judgmental suddenly) 

 

Yeah, Henry James Olsen was a huge cop out. 

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I honestly thought the show couldn't mess the Davis Bloome storyline up.  It seemed so clear that the unexpected twist should have been saving the man from that monster but instead they gave me the most rage inducing ending ever. 

 

What annoys me is that there's no way they didn't think of other ways to resolve Davis's storyline. (I did. I'm sure other viewers did too.) Yet they chose the worst option on the list. It was like they said, "We spent all season making this guy a three-dimensional character. But screw that! We're resolving his storyline by turning him into a two-dimensional psycho."

 

I can just imagine the writers when they decided this was the way to end it. "It'll be so shocking!" And it was, because it sucked, and I didn't think even the SV writers could screw up the resolution that badly.

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From the season 6 discussion thread

 

Yup...although that's actually not my favorite Chloe/Clark scene.  [in reference to the end of season five kiss]

 

 

Well there's an opening I'm happy to walk right in. 

 

So what IS your favorite Chloe/Clark scene?

 

Mine is probably forever shifting depending on the mood and moment but right now the thing stuck in my head is the end of Beast in season 8 with Chloe is attempting to trade her life to save Clark's and Clark going ape shit on Lana's pwetty pink file cabinets.  Such a moment of potential.

Edited by BkWurm1
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So what IS your favorite Chloe/Clark scene?

 

 

The almost kiss in Tempest back in s1. The whole ep, but especially that last dance, had Clark really begin to see Chloe in a different light. It was completely organic that they went for the kiss even with his Lana obsession that season. And right before the kiss, the long look as they leaned in (and Clark blushing when he broke it off, which was after 2 seconds of loud noise..different than the almost kiss he had with Lois in s8.)

Edited by wingster55
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So this is where we come to talk Smallville now!

From the season 6 discussion thread

 

 

Well there's an opening I'm happy to walk right in. 

 

So what IS your favorite Chloe/Clark scene?

 

Mine is probably forever shifting depending on the mood and moment but right now the thing stuck in my head is the end of Beast in season 8 with Chloe is attempting to trade her life to save Clark's and Clark going ape shit on Lana's pwetty pink file cabinets.  Such a moment of potential.

I agree, it is always changing, but for me right now it is the super-breath at the end of "Sneeze". A really happy Chlark moment, and one of the handful of times I can remember in which Clark got to have some silly fun with his powers (of course, that breath probably caused a hurricane over the Atlantic, but let's not dwell...).

In other news, I attended a barn wedding in a few weeks ago. No un-killable beasts appeared, other than some llamas and pygmy goats. Apparently this is now a thing:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/08/04/us/neighbors-say-barn-weddings-raise-a-rumpus.html?_r=0&referrer=

So I guess Chimmy were ahead of the curve, rather than just the victims of cheap show-runners. For that matter, Lana would be even further ahead, having dreamed of a barn wedding since the 90s at least.

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I'm re-watching the show. I actually don't mind Lana once she gets a backbone, fakes her death and goes all ninja. But I feel like they made Lana and Clark's "love" so epic that by the time he starts liking Lois, it pales in comparison.

 

I loved Erica Durance's Lois, but the way they super jumped her to reporter was ridiculous. I know Chloe was a big fan favorite, but I still think Lois' evolution should've begun when Chloe "died" at the end of Season 3. Lois could've have taken up the Chloe role and gone from there.

Edited by Writing Wrongs
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In terms of story commitment, (assuming going the traditional Lois Lane route was always the intention), then yes, it probably would have been better if Lois had come into the story after Chloe had really died.  I probably would have stopped watching but maybe the show could have won me back later.  I actually liked Lois in her first appearance on the show, it's just that then they kept writing her in such a way that I wanted to scream.  (Actually, looking back now after having been exposed to a far worse character on Arrow - Laurel, I'm looking at you - Lois only frustrated and irritated me, but I never hated her and I did like her when the show wasn't trying to convince me she was THE Lois Lane)

 

Still not convinced that some form of Chlois wasn't the original endgame. 

 

Even after Lois's arrival. 

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Actually, I hated Erica Durance's Lois. From the moment she barged into Clark's house, demanding to see him, obnoxiously grabbing for the coffee, walking around as if she owned the place. And then having her move into their home, etc., etc...

 

I know chemistry is subjective, and Welling had chemistry with everyfuckingbody, EXCEPT I didn't see it with Durance. They gave off a sibling vibe to me, actually.  Like when Lois stepped into dog poo, the way Clark laughed and walked away is something an older brother would do.

 

Don't get me started on how Lois became the Best Reporta Evah! over Chloe at the Daily Planet, where Chloe worked sweat and blood to earn her spot, and Lois didn't.

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The brother and sister vibe was very strong and yeah, even at the end of the show I still got the icks when they went In for a kiss. Shudder.

I should clarify what I wrote about never hating her. I thought I hated her at the time, it's just that I've reached such new levels of hate with Laurel Lance on Arrow I've come to realize what I felt about Lois can't compare. And the part where I said I did like her when the iconic-ness of Lois Lane wasn't being shoved down our throats, well she stayed absolutely in character in all of Elly and Apey's fan fiction and there she was just blustering comedic gold, though I guess that also means ED was a better actress when I was in charge of the imagining.

Edited by BkWurm1

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Heh. I gave up Arrow after two or three episodes, because the acting was so bad, and the voiceovers. OH.MY.GOD.

 

And the fact, at least to me, of the creators trying to make Ollie/Arrow into Bruce/Bats is just so obvious, and like I said in the other thread, usurping a good number of Bats' villains, like the Royal Flush Gang, Clock King, Harley, and now R'as?! Whatthefuckever.

 

And someone mentioned in the Arrow thread, that the scene with R'as is totally ripped from Batman Begins.  And if they had to use him, why not get Oded Fehr? Because if David Warner is still alive, he's too old.*

 

*Yeah, yeah, those are the actors that voice Dr. Fate (Fehr) R'as (Warner).

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Even on Smallville they at times tried to make GA Batman-lite so that aspect of the show doesn't bother me and the theft from Batman Begins has been blatant since the start of the series so I'm resigned to that as well. I roll my eyes still but then shrug my shoulders (bigger fish to fry).

About the acting - I remember thinking the same thing specifically the lead but in rewatch I've realized I did the actor a huge disservice. The wooden quality was the character's PTSD showing through. There is a lot of very subtle and meaningful stuff going on.

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Yes, I've watched the premiere (only for Barry, mind you), and the cross-over and Amell has improved...but it's the hard core Batsfangurrrl in me, that can't shrug off the stuff I'm bitching about upthread.  And you know I have MUCH bigger fish to fry, but I can't help it.

 

I guess I was still looking for elements of the GA from JLU and the GA shorts I've gotten in the direct to home dvd/bluray...and that GA has an irreverent/sarcastic sense of humor.  The one I just saw in the Batman Superman: Apocalypse I think it was, ended with him proposing to Dinah/Black Canary after she saved his ass. I mean, he was on his way to meet her to propose, but things happened and while trying to save the new very young queen of some country, delayed him. And he was on his knees when he proposed.

 

Sigh...I've got to STOP these hopes...since I never read the GA comics, so I can't tell if the 'toons are the same or different.

Edited by GHScorpiosRule

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A list of ten episodes that "got it right"

 

I stopped after the very first one they listed, Homecoming.  A twisted and messed up episode of the worst sort IMO .  So the only reason that Clark gets back together with Lois and eventually tells her his secret is because a supercomputer is sent back in time to tell Clark she won't reject you, so go ahead, it's a sure thing.  What is moving about that?  Plus this is the episode that convinces Clark that he has to turn his back on his Dad and the farm and yet in the final episode his mom is appalled at his choices to sell the farm and it's only by embracing his past that Clark learns how to fly and harness all his power and defeat Darkseide. 

 

Homecoming hits some comic beats that got people excited but it was a huge disservice to the romance between Lois and Clark and practically an F U to Jonathan Kent and the fact that they have to go back and have him embrace what Brainiac 5 is telling him he must put in his past makes EVERYTHING Brainiac says questionable.  The episode might work as a nostalgic look back but it cuts the heart out of anything epic about L&C and is a blatant misdirect about what Clark needs to do to become Superman, so no, I don't think they got it right.  I think they got if very wrong.  

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Edited to add:  I ran through the rest of the list and it's clear it was made by someone that didn't have much appreciation for anything that Smallville brought that was new or different from the comics.  All the episodes on that list were only chosen because he got a power or flew or something that happened in the comics happened or some AU version of Lois that doesn't exist acted like the Lois we'd see in the comics. Or just showed up.   I liked a lot of the episodes on the list but it's clearly skewed from a Because Comics view point.   Chloe doesn't rate one mention and they called the scene at Jonathan Kent's grave the show at it's soapiest.  So emotion is nothing but a soap opera?  

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So, since I am currently re-watching this show, and am up to the near end of Season 3, thought I'd post my thoughts here.

 

Clark continues to be charming and endearing for the entire first season, and I fucking loved that his first kiss was with Chloe. Even in the second season, he's not the BDA he ends up being.

 

Lana. Good Grief. What can I say that I haven't said already. That BkWurm1 didn't encapsulate so brilliantly and accurately in the Season 8 thread I think it was? I've learned, by paying attention--but it's hard, and I won't lie--I've been fastforwarding scenes with her, which has made the viewing zip by-that Lana is a person who is just not happy with the guy she's with. She's always wanting or pining after Clark; when she's not with Clark anymore, but still in lurve with him, she has transitory "relationships" with other guys, but pining for Clark; yet blames Clark for not "being honest" or telling her every.single.detail about his life, personality and secrets. She also can't think for herself or make decisions based on what facts she is presented with. No, because Whitney said Kyle ("Hug") attacked him, Clark should believe Whitney, who's a good guy and would never hurt anyone. And when Clark brings up except when Whitney kidnapped Clark and hung up like a Scarecrow, Her Precious and Sanctimonious Self is all affronted and accuses Clark of still not forgiving Whitney. I wanted to just slap her.  And that wasn't the last time that feeling came over me. Sure, the show had redeemed Whitney by season's end, but for Lana to expect Clark to believe him blindly? Whatever.  And then there's the whole I have to be with him because he needs me, even though I don't love him anymore and have feelings for Clark nonsense.

 

I'm not sure what it is, but there's something about Kristen's acting choices that bug me. I don't know if it's because her mouth almost always looks like it's in a pout--her voice or that her face has just one expression--fear/guilt (when she's not smiling or laughing) and the way her eyes are always moving up and down or left to right. Like a doll.

 

And that she is the only victim of the meteor shower. As if Lana was the only child to lose her parents.

 

I still remember what it was like being 14 and 15--but the way Lana kept going on about needing to find a purpose and not be the shallow person other teens her age were, just made me roll my eyes. And the constant mantra about needing to feel "safe" and "protected." From what? Like her life has been sooooo awful all these years. Don't get me started on how she was a royal fuckup the one day she worked at the beanery, but once she got Lex to be her silent partner(!) in re-opening the Talon and her being a manager and waitress at the same time, going to school? Boggles the mind. Considering she's a blank slate, unlike Chloe, who we know is a passionate journalist and how Chloe researches the stories she writes for The Smallville Torch. But no. Lana is an expert! And while she's in school, Nell manages. PUH-LEAZE.

 

There was still so much good in Season 2 as well. Though I can see Clark didn't want to just remain "good friends" after leaving Chloe as the Spring Formal, so jumped at the excuse she gave. Stupid fool, believing her lies.  Some really good stuff in Season 2, with Rachel Dunleavy appearing, claiming to be Clark's bio-mom, as a result of Chloe's snooping. And that carried over into the third season and I won't lie, I shed some tears at seeing Chloe's heartbreak, and at the scene where Chloe said to Clark she's apologized so many times and she can't do it anymore and walks away, after saying that she thought that Clark, of all people, would understand how Lionel got to her. Loved how she brought up his acting out in "Exile" and how she kept his secret.  Allison Mack is just so very, very good.

 

I don't think I need to say just how fantastic Michael Rosenbaum is here. His portrayal of Lex humanized him, and made me forget, that ultimately, Lex does become the villain. Lex and Clark's friendship is one of the things I love about this show.

 

And Tom Welling is not only purty, I mean, those eyes! Those everchanging blue-to-green-to blue (depending on what he's wearing), those chiseled cheekbones, that smile...ahem-he's a decent actor and has chemistry with everyfuckingbody.  My favorite scenes are those with Jonathan and Martha.  Welling says so much, at times, with just his eyes. And his reactions/facial expressions...so very natural. It's why I was peeved during the last two seasons, when his acting choice to have Clark be so...muted as to come off wooden, was frustrating and exasperating and disappointing.  He's adorable, charming and endearing and I swoon when I see him as Clark, the Kansas Farm Boy. But dayum, if he's downright fucking SEXY when he's on Red Kryptonite--especially in "Exile." I loved the wild, unkempt hair. And realized he had a haircut, a very bad one, toward the end of the season. Yuck.

 

And then when Clark was shot with the kryptonite bullet in "Extinction" and the way Martha is begging Clarke to hold on and that "Daddy" is getting the bullet out--even though I've seen this multiple times, I'm curled up in a fetal ball as I'm watching.

 

And "Fever" just proves how self-absorbed, self-centered Lana is. Chloe reading her letter to Clark, and to have him mumble Lana when she's done, is just so...heartbreaking.

 

I still think Clark should have been harsher with both Chloe and Lana at the end of "Dichotic" though I am glad he told both of them what was what and for once, I was so happy that he wasn't all mopey when the credits rolled. And I also realized, how MANY of the last scene were with fucking Lana. When I would have preferred a more balanced with either his parents, Pete, Chloe, Lex, or of just Clark.

 

Hoo. That's a lot. Will have more on my thoughts of Lionel later.

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Lana. Good Grief. What can I say that I haven't said already. That BkWurm1 didn't encapsulate so brilliantly and accurately in the Season 8 thread I think it was? I've learned, by paying attention--but it's hard, and I won't lie--I've been fastforwarding scenes with her, which has made the viewing zip by-that Lana is a person who is just not happy with the guy she's with. She's always wanting or pining after Clark; when she's not with Clark anymore, but still in lurve with him, she has transitory "relationships" with other guys, but pining for Clark; yet blames Clark for not "being honest" or telling her every.single.detail about his life, personality and secrets. She also can't think for herself or make decisions based on what facts she is presented with. No, because Whitney said Kyle ("Hug") attacked him, Clark should believe Whitney, who's a good guy and would never hurt anyone. And when Clark brings up except when Whitney kidnapped Clark and hung up like a Scarecrow, Her Precious and Sanctimonious Self is all affronted and accuses Clark of still not forgiving Whitney. I wanted to just slap her.  And that wasn't the last time that feeling came over me. Sure, the show had redeemed Whitney by season's end, but for Lana to expect Clark to believe him blindly? Whatever.  And then there's the whole I have to be with him because he needs me, even though I don't love him anymore and have feelings for Clark nonsense.

 

I'm not sure what it is, but there's something about Kristen's acting choices that bug me. I don't know if it's because her mouth almost always looks like it's in a pout--her voice or that her face has just one expression--fear/guilt (when she's not smiling or laughing) and the way her eyes are always moving up and down or left to right. Like a doll.

 

And that she is the only victim of the meteor shower. As if Lana was the only child to lose her parents.

 

I understand that Lana was a victim and that thing may annoy a lot of people. I really like Lana but I appreciate when people justify why they don't like her, instead of just saying they don't like her. That reminds me that, maybe, if I re-watched Smallville now, I woulnd't like her as much as I did the previous time. Yes, these things were annoying, but don't know why, I didn't like her because I felt bad for her, but for her progression. Her story with Clark -the soap opera- really interested me. I never felt she was a victim, but I really liked her when Clark constantly sends confusing signals towards her. In episode Red he is acting like a mad person, so she gets confused. I liked how she felt in love with him in different levels: first as a someone she finds attractive but also is a friend, then someone who has different "faces and moods" and is intriguing, then with the saviour, but at the same time feels she will be safer with other guys. It's not only until the very end she understands what real love is. I think that, as a whole, is what made me love them.

 

 

 

I don't think I need to say just how fantastic Michael Rosenbaum is here. His portrayal of Lex humanized him, and made me forget, that ultimately, Lex does become the villain. Lex and Clark's friendship is one of the things I love about this show.

 

Lex was superb in season 2 and 3. His dynamics with Clark and Lionel, but also with Chloe and Lana were a 10.

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Oh! Forgot to add earlier that I know that folks over at TWoP loooooved the new Sheriff that took over after Ethan was turned into a bad guy/murderer who framed Jonathan, but I loathed her. I'm not sure what it was; her face that had the one expression all the time, as if it were a frozen mask, her accent? I don't know. But for damned sure, I didn't agree with her remark about how she was going to tear down the "Good Ole Boys' Network" or whatever she said. Because the police department in Smallville, wasn't a good ole boys organization. If it had been, then Ethan wouldn't have arrested Clark and brought locked him up in the Season 2 premiere.  So I wasn't sad when she bit it in the fifth season.

 

Ethan. I'm upset that Al and Miles decided to turn him into a bad guy. I liked him. He was a good Sheriff, from the little we saw of him.

 

And before I begin on Lionel, let me add that I really loved how some of Clark's abilities were tied into his puberty! Especially his heat vision!

 

And now, Lionel. I know we've all called him, referred to him as the Magnificent Bastard, but I'd like to take away the Magnificent for the second and third seasons to start with.  His was a case of the bad guy always winning and almost turning into a caricature--except that Martha did get the key to the ship away from him; that Clark was able to get his Kryptonite version away with Pete's help and that for a little bit, the bastard was blind.  Because I was invested in Lex. And it seemed, just as Lex would accomplish something, something Lionel was clearly jealous of--Lionel had to do something to make Lex look like a failure, or that Lionel would just keep winning.  And don't get me started in trying to analyze his need for blackmailing a high school student, because he was so desperately trying to figure out Clark's secret and trying to find a cure for his cancer. Did love that he was foiled from that by getting the video of Lex telling Clark that he, Lex knew Clark's secret in "Asylum."  I get and got angry, even knowing that in about five episodes, Lionel will be trotted off to prison, where we get to see his long locks being shaved.  And there's "Transference" to look forward to! Tom Welling just shone in that episode, channeling John Glover.

 

Now, this is not to say that Glover isn't a good actor. He is. Hell, this show really gave us a great cast of actors.  It was the lack of balance in the early years that was so frustrating.

 

And I agree--that Smallville really is an underrated show, despite how godawful that last two/three seasons were.  And re-watching, in the DC-verse, it still has the best opening credits, and the songs that the show used are...awesome! I want the Talon Mix that Pete put together for Clark at the end of "Fever."

 

Then cue in me rolling my eyes that Eric Summers, the kid that managed to have Clark's powers for a short bit, and is now at Belle Rieve, wanting revenge against Clark for putting him in there, and wanting Clark's powers back, WHEN, toward the end of that episode, he went back to that bridge to try "and get rid of it" meaning, Clark's powers, because of his father calling the cops on him for abusing said powers. Yeah, yeah, plot point.

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It's why I was peeved during the last two seasons, when his acting choice to have Clark be so...muted as to come off wooden, was frustrating and exasperating and disappointing.

 

He's stuck with being all grr, cold, mad to Chloe in 9 and barely got to work with her in season 10.  I really don't think it was a coincidence. 

 

And now, Lionel. I know we've all called him, referred to him as the Magnificent Bastard, but I'd like to take away the Magnificent for the second and third seasons to start with.  His was a case of the bad guy always winning and almost turning into a caricature--except that Martha did get the key to the ship away from him; that Clark was able to get his Kryptonite version away with Pete's help and that for a little bit, the bastard was blind.  Because I was invested in Lex. And it seemed, just as Lex would accomplish something, something Lionel was clearly jealous of--Lionel had to do something to make Lex look like a failure, or that Lionel would just keep winning

 

He was soooo evil and such a horrid bastard that I just had to appreciate his nastiness.  I hated him but he was just so good at making me hate him.  He was rarely a brute in doing it.  His elegance and seeming sincerity as he destroyed anything good Lex built was just so wonderfully awful.   

 

Oh! Forgot to add earlier that I know that folks over at TWoP loooooved the new Sheriff that took over after Ethan was turned into a bad guy/murderer who framed Jonathan, but I loathed her. I'm not sure what it was; her face that had the one expression all the time, as if it were a frozen mask, her accent? I don't know. But for damned sure, I didn't agree with her remark about how she was going to tear down the "Good Ole Boys' Network" or whatever she said. Because the police department in Smallville, wasn't a good ole boys organization. If it had been, then Ethan wouldn't have arrested Clark and brought locked him up in the Season 2 premiere.  So I wasn't sad when she bit it in the fifth season.

 

If I recall, her nickname was Sheriff Cheshire.  The reason I liked her was two fold. Even though Sheriff Ethan had been on a lot of episodes, I have zero memory of him.  She was always memorable and what I loved about her was she wasn't stupid.  She noticed Clark, she knew he was helping.  She even suggested he should go into law enforcement.  She was IMO just a better character than Ethan who again for me was completely forgettable. 

 

Plus she got the best line after getting shot.  "Well ain't that a mother." 

 

After she died, all the cops until Manhunter were forgettable. 

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He's stuck with being all grr, cold, mad to Chloe in 9 and barely got to work with her in season 10.  I really don't think it was a coincidence. 

 

He was soooo evil and such a horrid bastard that I just had to appreciate his nastiness.  I hated him but he was just so good at making me hate him.  He was rarely a brute in doing it.  His elegance and seeming sincerity as he destroyed anything good Lex built was just so wonderfully awful.   

 

If I recall, her nickname was Sheriff Cheshire.  The reason I liked her was two fold. Even though Sheriff Ethan had been on a lot of episodes, I have zero memory of him.  She was always memorable and what I loved about her was she wasn't stupid.  She noticed Clark, she knew he was helping.  She even suggested he should go into law enforcement.  She was IMO just a better character than Ethan who again for me was completely forgettable. 

 

Plus she got the best line after getting shot.  "Well ain't that a mother." 

 

After she died, all the cops until Manhunter were forgettable. 

 

 

1. So, so true! I remember someone kept trying to convince me it was a deliberate acting choice by Welling to "show" how Clark was now all grown up and not a kid anymore, so of course he wasn't going to be all "emotional." 

 

Me: Whatever. Welling lit up whenever he was with Shelby and of course, the few times Allison was there.

 

2. Oh, I get it. I hated him too. Not in a Love to Hate Him, like I did with the original Magnificent Bastard, J.R. Ewing, but just hatehatehate. And yes, he did his evilry without Brute force, which just made it all the more enjoyable when he screamed: "Noooo!!!!" when Clark managed to retrieve the key in "Exodus."

 

3. I dunno. I liked the brief appearances of Ethan. And I see what you mean about Chesire, but still, she annoyed. Guess it's my Clark bias talking. Sigh...

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Guess it's my Clark bias talking. Sigh...

 

Ah, see, I always got the impression that she was a Clark Kent fan once she got to know him.  Maybe it's MY Clark Kent bias showing.  :)

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I rewatched some episodes and scenes from S01-S07 this past weekend, inspired by GHSR and other threads here. Here are some random observations that I remember and that you all know very well:

 

The Luthor Mansion Security issue: People walk into Lex's office all the time. The DVD commentary for S02 even noticed it, but it kept happening from beginning to end. It's funny at first, but then incredibly stupid after the first two seasons.

 

The Makeup: This was/is a general CW issue. They really plastered it on especially for the ladies, but even for Tom Welling. There's a hilarious scene in a Christopher Reeve episode where Welling's face is very overdone. Kristin Kreuk noticed it in the DVD commentary. Tom said they had to fly to NY for the scene so they had a new makeup woman.

 

Lex in S1-2: Lex frequently wore black the first couple of seasons and his trousers were often not hemmed well. It always made me think if Lex was slumming it against his money. Ha. MR's voice seemed higher pitched in the earlier seasons too. I think MR might have smoked which contributed to the change in tone.

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The Makeup: This was/is a general CW issue. They really plastered it on especially for the ladies, but even for Tom Welling. There's a hilarious scene in a Christopher Reeve episode where Welling's face is very overdone. Kristin Kreuk noticed it in the DVD commentary. Tom said they had to fly to NY for the scene so they had a new makeup woman.

Whuut? I admit, I don't really pay attention unless it's reallllyyyy bad, but I'm so easily distracted when I am watching Tom/Clark. Those chiseled cheekbones, those EYES...and just him.

 

Lex in S1-2: Lex frequently wore black the first couple of seasons and his trousers were often not hemmed well. It always made me think if Lex was slumming it against his money. Ha. MR's voice seemed higher pitched in the earlier seasons too. I think MR might have smoked which contributed to the change in tone.

I wonder if that was because he was doing double duty during those years? He also voiced The Flash/Wally West in Justice League/Justice League Unlimited and Wally's voice wasn't a deep. He was also a lot thinner in the early seasons. Not that he gained a lot of weight, but he did fill out toward the last two or three seasons he was on.

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Pre-Amble:
So Smallville is the show that caused me much joy, pain and suffering when it was live.  I originally started watching it in S6 and binged it.  Then I watch S7-S10 live.  And I learned a LOT about internet and social media and what to say and not say.  I have scar tissue.  So... for 6 years since it ended, I haven't really re-watched squat (except S4 Jensen Ackles scenes... for reasons).

Then I started watching This is Us and I thought -- was Justin Hartley as good of an actor on Smallville?  I didn't really remember. One thing led to another and I found myself binge-watching Smallville S7-S10 in the last week.  Just kinda randomly fell into it but obsessively watched 4 seasons in 3 days.  

Here's my 'Big-Picture' take-aways:

Viewing experience:
- The answer to my original question - was Justin Hartley that good on Smallville - is "there were definitely excellent moments".  Some of the writing did him no good but in the last three years there were definitely scenes I found impressive.
- That hurt a lot less than I thought it would.  Binge-watching is ALWAYS better for me.  I didn't get upset about things that upset me before. I was able to gloss over the bad junk as I quickly moved onto the next episode.
- I was a MASSIVE Chloe fan in the past but I could appreciate both Lana and Lois a LOT more this rewatch.  Especially Lois.  I really disliked her the first time around but I accepted her during this binge-watch. 
- You know, I was pretty happy with Chloe's ending.  Married to Green Arrow, still involved in the comics after the show ended.  Worked for me.

Show review:
- There were some excellent storylines and character moments.  The show became MUCH more of a TV live-action comic book as they approached S10.  Having read some comics, I could see the cuts from one scene to the next as similar transitions in a comic book.  A comic book "jumps" to various scenes with very little setup. But then the details of the scene are quite intricate.  As the seasons progressed, I saw more "jumps" and the slow-mo action sequences and camera angles looked like a comic.  That's NOT a criticism.  It just was a shift from the early years, which felt more like a TV show based on characters from the comics.  The CW has MULTIPLE shows that follow the live-action comic book format and Smallville would fit right in.  And honestly, the techniques and SFx was really good.
- There was almost a "Goosebumps" kind of aspect to the show.  Although not in every episode, there were MANY MANY times where it was clear to me the writers were encouraging different interpretations of a scene based on an individual viewer's likes/dislikes.  As the series wore on, EVERY character had flaws that detractors could really have a field-day with and every character had outstanding "hero" moments that fans would cherish.  No wonder there were so many internet fights.  The writing was set up to CREATE opinions.  
- I found Clark's POV to be less obscured than I seem to remember the first time.  There were still waaaaaaayyyyy too many 'stare into the distance' moments but the binge-watching allowed me to sort of skim over thinking about what he was thinking because it wasn't long before I could see the entire season's arcs and fill in the blanks myself.  
- I don't think I could have binge-watched all 10 years without throwing something at Clark.  In just watching the last 4 years, knowing what I was going to get, I still could feel the sense of 'stretch-out' in terms of Clark character growth. But they did an EXCELLENT job in the last couple of episodes showing that after Jonathon died, Clark REALLY became shackled by guilt.  The "fun Clark" in the "7 years in the future" version that we saw twice in S10 made sense knowing that the key to Clark becoming Superman was him dropping some of his emotional baggage.  
- Finally, the writer/producers ought to be strung up for playing to the shippers as BLATANTLY as they did.  This was the concentrated version of their "Goosebumps" approach but this time they really DID (IMO) show alternate POV's within the same season.  Many of the scenes, to me, look put in explicitly to ensure Shipper Group X was still happy or Shipper Group Y would not get too pissed off.  As an unambiguous Chlark fan the first time around, I found myself seeing scenes or specific lines that supported my favorite ship being 'tacked on'. And same was true for the other ships.  Even though I KNEW  what the outcome was going to be; the first time around those scenes seemed really important. This second time, knowing precisely how it was going to play out and binge-watching put those scenes a simultaneously less important and able to be recontextualized in a way that I was happy with.  THAT SURPRISED ME.

Would I recommend the series?
- As a binge-watch ONLY.  And tell them it's okay to skip some scenes and fast forward through arcs that don't matter to them.  Week by week was painful.  Even if it was daily, I think that's too stretched out.  DVR, Netflix, or BluRay.  And definitely HIGH Def as the action sequences were flat-out gorgeous IMO.

 

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  Hey, that was pretty good.  The show held up in terms of plot and SFx.  I wasn't nearly as pissed off the second time around and there were some interesting storylines.  An especially excellent show for fans of live-action TV comics. Not recommended for the uber-Superman geek who can't tolerate non-pre-existing-canon storytelling.

Edited by SueB · Reason: added the S4 note

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44 minutes ago, SueB said:

 Even though I KNEW  what the outcome was going to be; the first time around those scenes seemed really important. This second time, knowing precisely how it was going to play out and binge-watching put those scenes a simultaneously less important and able to be recontextualized in a way that I was happy with.  THAT SURPRISED ME.

I had the opposite reaction.  Even though I knew how the show ended, on rewatches I found myself getting just as sucked into thinking X or Y was really supposed to lead to something Chloe or Chlark positive and more pissed off this time knowing that it never would.  So much wasted potential.  

Edited by BkWurm1
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12 hours ago, SueB said:

- There was almost a "Goosebumps" kind of aspect to the show.

What do you mean by "Goosebumps"? I only know the "Goosebumps" horror novels for kids. I hear you about the Rashomon aspect of SV's storytelling (and agree), but I don't know how that relates to the "Goosebumps" series that I'm thinking of?

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The "Goosebumps" books used to let you pick what happens as you go along.  IMO "Smallville" doesn't literally do that as each episode has a beginning, middle, and end BUT many of the character-driven scenes are left open to interpretation.  Used to drive me nuts that I'd see a scene one way and someone else had a completely DIFFERENT interpretation.  I don't mind that once in a while.  I don't mind variation in interpretation, but these scenes often led to really disparate viewpoints on what the scene meant.

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Yeah, the show runners baited and played the different factions against each other IMO very purposely.  At times though, I don't think even they knew what direction the show would ultimately end up going.  

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3 hours ago, SueB said:

The "Goosebumps" books used to let you pick what happens as you go along.  IMO "Smallville" doesn't literally do that as each episode has a beginning, middle, and end BUT many of the character-driven scenes are left open to interpretation.  Used to drive me nuts that I'd see a scene one way and someone else had a completely DIFFERENT interpretation.  I don't mind that once in a while.  I don't mind variation in interpretation, but these scenes often led to really disparate viewpoints on what the scene meant.

Oooooh -- apparently, the choose-your-own-adventure version of "Goosebumps" was after my time. I had no idea that it even existed!

By the way, I hated choose-your-own-adventure books. So dissatisfying.

I'm not sure that I agree that the character-driven scenes are unusually open to interpretation, though. I mean, I agree that all the characters had strengths and weaknesses, and triumphs and failures. But isn't that the goal for all shows, to create multi-faceted characters like that?

I do think that if a character happens to have flaws that really get under your skin, it's easy to start hating them, and resenting that the show refuses to "hate" them, too. This show kind of forces you to see the good in obnoxious people and the bad in likeable people. Which is cool IMO. But yes, definitely frustrating at times!

I think in that sense, SV was actually pretty far ahead of its time. Later on, shows like Vampire Diaries started doing a similar thing, but even those shows weren't ultimately as uncompromising as SV was in its characterization IMO. I mean, Damon is now more or less the hero of Vampire Diaries (originally, he was the bad guy who was a tinge too admirable -- or at least romantic and loving -- for comfort). Whereas Lex was NEVER going to become the hero of SV.

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On 1/8/2017 at 8:22 PM, BkWurm1 said:

I think that Lana suffered from guys seeing her as perfect and projecting who they expected her to be and then she just kind of went with it at least for a while.  

She probably was really flattered and impressed when an older student like Whitney paid attention to her, so for a while she became the Homecoming Queen and Cheerleader to his Football Star.  I also wonder if what triggers her resentment and dissatisfaction is someone else seeing her in a different way which would trigger her then seeing herself in that different way.  

Maybe Lana's problem is that she takes on the traits of the guys around her.  Like when she became a crusader for a cause when she found out about her bio dad.  Or maybe it doesn't even take a guy.  She hung out briefly with Chloe and suddenly is all passionate about the student's right to publish and her out of nowhere passion got her the gig and it was only when she was challenged on basically stealing it from Chloe that she backed off.

I agree about the projection thing.

I think that Lana had the misfortune of being appealing-yet-nonthreatening (a pretty cipher), so she was exactly the kind of girl that people tended to project all their feelings and ideals onto. IMO men and boys would fall in love with this "embodiment" of their own feelings/ideals, and when they did, they believed that they were falling in love with "her." Really, IMO they were just falling in love with their own projection/reflection.

In a way, Lana wasn't even really in "her" relationships, because the relationships were ultimately between each man and his own reflection. She was just the mirror that the man got to see his reflection in. I think that's why she couldn't love any of them back; they weren't engaging with HER. They were engaging with themselves THROUGH her.

IMO the biggest offender in that sense was Clark, because practically his entire relationship with Lana was within his own head. Lana didn't even know about tons and tons of it.

However, I do think that Lexana was a bit different in that respect. IMO Lex "pulled a Lana" on Lana, by trying to make her see a reflection of herself in him. He kept reflecting her own interests, her own hopes, etc, back at her, as a way of getting HER to fall in love with HIM. If she became interested in self-defense, or the Talon, or being an artist in Paris, or astronomy, or some weird Kryptonite drug, or really ANYTHING, then Lex was right there, helping her and acting interested, too.

It's funny, I think that Lex was actually the only one out of Lana's boyfriends who was concerned about whether/how much she loved him. That's not even something that Whitney or Clark thought about, IMO. Jason maybe did somewhat, but I think that Jason was mostly worried about the fragility of the relationship itself, rather than about Lana's feelings (toward him) in particular.

Anyway, I think that, for Lex, mirroring her and involving himself as much as possible in HER life (rather than the other way around) was partly a way of shielding himself from her -- because he said more than once, and other characters also told him more than once, that if she really "saw" him, she would hate him. And I think it was partly just how he behaved with everyone he wanted to have a relationship with. IMO Lex involved himself so much in LuthorCorp/business and even with Veritas as a way of having a relationship with his father. Same thing for the way that Lex kept involving himself in pretty much every facet of Clark's life as a way to have a relationship with Clark. IMO Lex would try and make himself into whatever it was the other person liked or needed or hated/feared, in order to make them like or include him or at least interact with him.

IMO Lana had different reasons for reflecting people back on themselves, though. I think that maybe, whereas Lex always knew exactly who he really was and what he wanted, but was too afraid to be open about it, Lana had no idea who she really was and what she wanted, and so there was not really anything for her to even open up about. Lucas said earlier on that an orphan gets the chance to create his own identity entirely from scratch, and I guess Lana got that chance, too -- and had no idea what to do with it. Instead of creating an identity for herself, she just had an empty pit where her identity should be.

Anyway, I'm not sure what Lana's trigger for leaving a relationship was. IMO she was terminally lonely, and when her loneliness reached critical mass in each relationship, then she was out of there. But I don't know what exactly would cause her loneliness to reach critical mass.

On 1/9/2017 at 10:12 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I actually think it could've been interesting if Lana had a relationship with someone she was the pursuer and had to initially engage someone else who didn't already have feelings for her.

That would never have happened, though. She would never have done that. She's too risk-averse about love to be willing to do something like that.

I think the closest she got was with Chloe, in that she pursued a friendship with Chloe despite Chloe being pretty wary and jealous toward her (at least initially).

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1 hour ago, rue721 said:

I think the closest she got was with Chloe, in that she pursued a friendship with Chloe despite Chloe being pretty wary and jealous toward her (at least initially).

I think though that Lana figured out really quickly that all you had to do was ask for Chloe's help and she was ready to be your friend in anything.  I'm not sure that Lana's reasons for being friends with Chloe were anything but self-serving. I honestly felt that Lana kind of took advantage of Chloe's friendship and loyalty.  It was pretty one sided and it always stuck out to me when Lana overstepped privacy boundaries by clicking on Chloe's private pictures, Chloe is the one that apologized and went further and counted her as a sister - but Lana never reciprocated in calling or considering Chloe her family.  

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21 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said:

I honestly felt that Lana kind of took advantage of Chloe's friendship and loyalty.  It was pretty one sided and it always stuck out to me when Lana overstepped privacy boundaries by clicking on Chloe's private pictures, Chloe is the one that apologized and went further and counted her as a sister - but Lana never reciprocated in calling or considering Chloe her family.

Yep. And she overstepped again, by lying about wanting to stay in her apartment when she was being stalked--just so she could snoop in Chloe's laptop, again, to find out Clark's secret. I still remember the look on her face and the way she shut the laptop closed when it asked for a password.

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20 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

I think though that Lana figured out really quickly that all you had to do was ask for Chloe's help and she was ready to be your friend in anything.  I'm not sure that Lana's reasons for being friends with Chloe were anything but self-serving. I honestly felt that Lana kind of took advantage of Chloe's friendship and loyalty.  It was pretty one sided and it always stuck out to me when Lana overstepped privacy boundaries by clicking on Chloe's private pictures, Chloe is the one that apologized and went further and counted her as a sister - but Lana never reciprocated in calling or considering Chloe her family.  

I think that Lana's just a cold fish. I don't think that she was using Chloe or manipulating Chloe or anything. She snooped and overstepped (and shouldn't have), but I don't think that means she didn't care about or respect her. Chloe snooped on Clark all the time, and it didn't mean she didn't care about or respect him. Boundaries are just a huge issue on this show, and everyone crossed other people's sometimes, and everyone felt like theirs had been crossed sometimes, and there were plenty of heated discussions between all the characters about it. IMO Clark had WAY too many boundaries and Lex had WAY too few, and all the other characters always fell somewhere in between.

The reason that I think that Chloe and Lana's friendship was genuine, was because Chloe was really pretty difficult for Lana to befriend, because she was SO busy being needlessly possessive toward Clark and jealous of Lana that she was really pretty defensive and hard on her, and yet they managed to overcome that and grow close. Chloe's freakout over Lana becoming the puppet editor-in-chief of the school paper, and Lana's willingness to forgive and forget that freakout, would have convinced me that Lana genuinely wanted to be friends with Chloe (and wasn't just making nice with her) even if nothing else had. That freakout was coming purely from Chloe's own insecurities, and not anything Lana had actually done or really anything going on outside of Chloe's head at all, and it was unfair to Lana for Chloe to take her insecurities out on her like that. IMO Lana would have been within her rights at that point to basically be like, "fuck this, I'm out." But she didn't. 

I have to say, in Lana's position, I wouldn't have bothered. It's not Lana's problem that Chloe had an unrequited crush or that Lana pushed her buttons or whatever. In Lana's place, I would just have hung with Pete and Clark and iced Chloe out. Someone doesn't like you, then fine. They can go on not liking you -- and they can do it from as far away as possible. ;) But Lana persevered -- which to me, made it clear that she really liked Chloe, and wasn't there just for Clark.

Conversely, I don't think that Chloe would have been friends with Lana if Clark hadn't basically forced her to. IMO for Chloe, Clark was the linchpin of Chloe and Lana's friendship, and pretty much all they had in common, all through the show. I think that Chloe came to care about Lana, because Chloe's a caring, expressive person...but I think that their mutual love/friendship for Clark was always the linchpin and central to Chloe and Lana's friendship, for Chloe, and Chloe and Lana's friendship would have gone kaput without it. For Chloe, not for Lana.

Anyway, I don't really put any weight on Lana's reluctance to call Chloe's family her family. Lana not having a family was this enormous thing that weighed on her and that she seemed constantly fixated on. She was willing to die a bunch of times just to see her parents for a second when she was taking that meteor rock drug. She was always visiting her parents' graves. She couldn't accept her own aunt, who had raised her since she was three (!) as "her family." There is just no way that she was going to be able to say that yes, she had a family in the Sullivans.

I mean, even if Lana and Lex had had a happy marriage (fat chance, I know, but IF) and they actually had had a child together, I think that she would have had a hard time even calling THAT "her family." Not having a family was this giant void or wound for her, and until that void was filled or that wound healed, she was going to have a hard time saying she had a family, period. So there was just no way that she was suddenly going to be referring to the Sullivans or even just Chloe as family, and definitely not at that point in the show.

I think that Chloe was just saying that she loved Lana (as a sister) and had purely good, light-hearted intentions about it. But being part of a family was a complicated, wrought idea/ideal for Lana and not something that she was going to be OK just throwing around the way that Chloe was.

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2 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think that Lana's just a cold fish. I don't think that she was using Chloe or manipulating Chloe or anything. She snooped and overstepped (and shouldn't have), but I don't think that means she didn't care about or respect her. Chloe snooped on Clark all the time, and it didn't mean she didn't care about or respect him. Boundaries are just a huge issue on this show, and everyone crossed other people's sometimes, and everyone felt like theirs had been crossed sometimes, and there were plenty of heated discussions between all the characters about it. IMO Clark had WAY too many boundaries and Lex had WAY too few, and all the other characters always fell somewhere in between.

The reason that I think that Chloe and Lana's friendship was genuine, was because Chloe was really pretty difficult for Lana to befriend, because she was SO busy being needlessly possessive toward Clark and jealous of Lana that she was really pretty defensive and hard on her, and yet they managed to overcome that and grow close. Chloe's freakout over Lana becoming the puppet editor-in-chief of the school paper, and Lana's willingness to forgive and forget that freakout, would have convinced me that Lana genuinely wanted to be friends with Chloe (and wasn't just making nice with her) even if nothing else had. That freakout was coming purely from Chloe's own insecurities, and not anything Lana had actually done or really anything going on outside of Chloe's head at all, and it was unfair to Lana for Chloe to take her insecurities out on her like that. IMO Lana would have been within her rights at that point to basically be like, "fuck this, I'm out." But she didn't. 

I have to say, in Lana's position, I wouldn't have bothered. It's not Lana's problem that Chloe had an unrequited crush or that Lana pushed her buttons or whatever. In Lana's place, I would just have hung with Pete and Clark and iced Chloe out. Someone doesn't like you, then fine. They can go on not liking you -- and they can do it from as far away as possible. ;) But Lana persevered -- which to me, made it clear that she really liked Chloe, and wasn't there just for Clark.

Conversely, I don't think that Chloe would have been friends with Lana if Clark hadn't basically forced her to. IMO for Chloe, Clark was the linchpin of Chloe and Lana's friendship, and pretty much all they had in common, all through the show. I think that Chloe came to care about Lana, because Chloe's a caring, expressive person...but I think that their mutual love/friendship for Clark was always the linchpin and central to Chloe and Lana's friendship, for Chloe, and Chloe and Lana's friendship would have gone kaput without it. For Chloe, not for Lana.

Some of my memories of the first two seasons are fuzzy so I call on those that recently rewatched to back me up (or set me straight) but what I remember is that the first time Lana and Chloe ever really interacted, it was when Lana was looking for a copy of her mother's speech and I remember Chloe being very helpful and generous to her.  Clark was not an issue at all.  In fact when Clark was brought up, they kind of laughed at him for thinking Lana's visit was about him.  

I don't remember when Lana was briefly handed the Torch (it was season 1 or 2 - I think it was in season two)  but with or without Clark involved, I think Chloe would have freaked because Lana went in I believe after telling Chloe that she would speak in her behalf and instead came out in charge of the paper, what at first blush seemed like a really underhanded move.  I do believe the Lana just got caught up in the moment and didn't think about how Chloe would feel having to answer to Lana - even if Lana intended to be just a figurehead.  Still, it would have seemed like a betrayal. 

In season one I really don't remember Lana and Chloe having much of a relationship, but the one they had once they interacted was certainly friendly even if they were not hanging out.  

In season two I recall that Chloe seemed to get sidelined when it comes to screen time and that they tried to actually make Lana look better in comparison.  I remember it being really blatant that the writing seemed to say to the audience, no, you're supposed to  love Lana, not Chloe.  So I do know somethings I tended to roll my eyes over and forget.  But I do recall that Lana was faced with having to move away with Nell pretty early in the season (by episode three I know Nell was set to get married) and Chloe is the one that came to her rescue and offered her a place to live and I remember very clearly after Lana had moved in that Chloe went out of her way to make her feel welcome and not someone that had to be perfect in order to stay.  

So I really don't get the impression that Lana was the one that kept pursuing the relationship.  It was more from what I recall, Lana doing something that set off Chloe and then them working through it, though from what I remember, apart from the Torch thing, I remember it being Chloe that kept reaching out to Lana really up until after Lana went off with Lex with Lana letting her, but Lana not really doing anything nice for Chloe.  She really seemed just to be using her for room and board while going through the motions of friendship for most of season two and then not even pretending to be friendly after season two for a long time.  Then going back to pretending since she is secretly plotting to run off to Paris and didn't tell her because she didn't trust her.  

Which was particularly galling to me since it was Lana's behavior that I found untrustworthy.     

As for boundaries, I think while Lana snooping is not unexpected, clicking on someones files on a computer is a lot more personal than digging into public records like Chloe had been doing with Clark's adoption.  And Chloe wasn't digging for the sake of digging.  She thought she was helping.  She was doing something she'd want for herself if she'd be in his situation.  She was wrong to make that decision for him and for dismissing what he'd said before about it but of course his reasons had rung false to Chloe since he had been lying about his reasons.  She was still wrong, but I don't think it's the same kind of snooping that Lana did on Chloe's computer.

Of course the real reason for Chloe being upset was Lana found and was looking at really private pictures. If Lana had clicked on family vacation pictures, I think Chloe wouldn't have said anything but would have quickly password protected the sensitive pictures.  Of course she was upset that Lana saw something Chloe was doing her best to hide her feelings on.  

But again, I don't think the digging Chloe did was the same as what Lana did.  Lana was just idly looking.  Chloe dug into Clark really only three times.  For a homework assignment that Clark was ignoring her about (just answer the damn favorite vegetable question and she wouldn't have had to hit legal records) on her own cause she thought he'd want to know, and once under the Truth gas.  From what we were told in season three, what she gave Lionel wasn't anything she hadn't already dug up and wasn't anything Lionel didn't already know.  

I don't think Lana tried to manipulate Chloe into a friendship.  I just think that she was good at using it without giving much back.  

3 hours ago, rue721 said:

Anyway, I don't really put any weight on Lana's reluctance to call Chloe's family her family. Lana not having a family was this enormous thing that weighed on her and that she seemed constantly fixated on. She was willing to die a bunch of times just to see her parents for a second when she was taking that meteor rock drug. She was always visiting her parents' graves. She couldn't accept her own aunt, who had raised her since she was three (!) as "her family." There is just no way that she was going to be able to say that yes, she had a family in the Sullivans.

I mean, even if Lana and Lex had had a happy marriage (fat chance, I know, but IF) and they actually had had a child together, I think that she would have had a hard time even calling THAT "her family." Not having a family was this giant void or wound for her, and until that void was filled or that wound healed, she was going to have a hard time saying she had a family, period. So there was just no way that she was suddenly going to be referring to the Sullivans or even just Chloe as family, and definitely not at that point in the show.

I think that Chloe was just saying that she loved Lana (as a sister) and had purely good, light-hearted intentions about it. But being part of a family was a complicated, wrought idea/ideal for Lana and not something that she was going to be OK just throwing around the way that Chloe was.

I actually don't disagree with what you are saying about why Lana doesn't call Chloe family, I just hold it against Lana as one of her deeper faults.  And I don't think Chloe said it lightly.  Chloe understands loss of family too.  But she took a different lesson from her mother leaving.  She learned to value those that were there.  Lana never accepted anyone that could fill that void.  

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