S05.E01: The Wars To Come

[Meredith Quill]

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Episode Synopsis:
Cersei and Jaime adjust to a world without Tywin. Varys reveals a conspiracy to Tyrion. Dany faces a new threat to her rule. Jon is caught between two kings.

[Tara Ariano]

Nick's post on the episode: Wildling Knees Can't Be Bent / All kinds of new alliances are on the table as Game Of Thrones returns, but if you think Mance Rayder is going to join any of them, you're going to be burned.

[stillshimpy]

Wow, so my husband lobbed  a spitball about Dany's missing dragon -- he thinks Black Dragon is off to find Bran, because Bran can apparently warg pretty much anything.   

 

Is Littlefinger sending Sansa off to Braavos or Dorne?  

 

Just when I was hoping I could join team Stannis, he had to go and prove why I have such difficulty believing he'd be a good ruler:  Burning the one "He comes from South of the Wall, former Crow" that all the people of the far North followed, alive even though Stannis needs the people of the North makes me question Stannis's ability to lead.  First of all, he needs a head of diplomatic relations like....whoa.  Secondly, that's not anyway to inspire loyalty in anyone.  Being without compassion doesn't make for a great leader, or even a particularly useful one.  Stannis's one-approach-fits-all "rules, rules, more rules, bend the or die!" approach just can't work as a ruler.  There's ground between being weak and mistaking inflexibility and narrow-vision for strength.  

 

I really think Missandei and Greyworm are the cutest little couple.  This, of course, means something completely hideous will happen to both of them.  

 

However, one vote for "with a bit of tempering of his views, Stannis may yet rock" because if he takes out Bolton, he's clearly got promise.  Problem is he doesn't understand the art of persuasion or compromise.  He just burned the man who did understand the people of the far North, so....that was a bit short-friggin'-sighted.  Hooray for Jon Snuh though, sparing Mance the indignity of burning alive.  

 

Loved the dark humor of Mance's face upon learning he'd burn.  That's why you hire Ciaran Hinds, folks.  When an expression conveys a volume of unspoken text.  

Edited April 13, 2015 by stillshimpy

[janjan]

Yes, Shimp, let us cry havoc and loose the dogs of war, and don our breeches (jodhpurs, actually) to go join Ginger's F-Troop, and pray to the Seven that we have a commander with a few more smarts than the Lobster. I almost liked him for a minute after Season 4, but then, but then ... he ... killed ...Mance. ..!?! How stupid was that. And how much of an army does Roose Bolton have anyway that Stannis needs the ragtag Wildling clans to supplement those wondrous CGI regiments that he somehow got onto his ships, with their horses, no less. Stannis, go pound sand. And if you punish Jon Snuh for his last-of-the-Mohicans act of kindness, we're gonna have words.

 

Ah, Dany. Like the witch told young Cersei, winning ain't all it's cracked up to be. Good luck dragon-hunting.

[90PercentGravity]

Phew. For a moment there I thought they re-cast Grey Worm and I had a major sad.

 

Varys's plan doesn't make sense. He was having Dany spied on and arrange for an assassination because he supported her claim to the throne? Eh? He's either a very good liar or a very stupid plotter.

 

Was that the same actor playing Lancel?

 

John Snow doesn't know how close he came to being penis leeched. I wonder if Mel knows something about his mother?

 

Sansa is being sent off. I don't know how Brienne will ever find her at this point.

Edited April 13, 2015 by 90PercentGravity

[WhiteStumbler]

Sansa driving past Brienne was just so sad. Beautiful, but sad. Robin will get a bit of toughening up at his new residence. I loved Cersei's mourning clothes and the actor's performance when she lit into Jaime. Brilliant.

 

Everything looked so good in this episode. The costumes, the sets, DRAGONS, castles, landscapes. Bummed to see the Bolton sigil on Winterfell, but glad to see it not smoking for the first time in two seasons. Didn't miss not checking in with the new Lords of Winterfell, but where were Bran, Arya, Jorah, Tommen + Margaery, Ser Pounce? I guess next week for some. I liked the flashback that Cersei had at the beginning. At first I thought it was Myrcella in Dorne.

 

There's ground between being weak and mistaking inflexibility and narrow-vision for strength. (re: Stannis)

-stillshimpy

 

I agree to an extent, shimpy, but I also think that Stannis believes it is his duty to rule, and will use any means at his disposal to attain that. Not power, not wealth, not personal glory, not painted whores nor noble virgins, but duty is what drives Lord Lobster. His interpretation of duty might be a narrow vision, but it is sincere, and it is all he has right now to drive him forward.

 

So sad to see Mance leave A Show, but it was yet more progress from Jon, who continues to become more and more interesting.

 

Dany has got a real mess on her hands -- call the Dragonling Abuse Hotline now. All calls are confidential.

 

ETA: I am pretty sure it was the same actor playing Lancel. A beefier version, but him. During my series re-watch, I confirmed that Lancel has not been seen, even in the background, since Blackwater.

Edited April 13, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, how dead is improved-for-your-viewing-pleasure Lancel?  Because I'm thinking he's pretty damned dead, seeing as he went out of his way to remind Cersei "Hey, remember that time we totally killed the King together? Oh the times we had! Good times.  Treasonous times.  Times punishable by death.   Did I mention I have discovered virtue?  Virtuous and pious times too."  

 

Dude might as well have jumped out a window in a shoe-less swan dive.  Get it over with, meet the Seven. 

 

 

 

Phew. For a moment there I thought they re-cast Grey Worm and I had a major sad.

 

You and everyone here, we were freaking out.  I think the show played with that intentionally though.  They do know they have a habit of recasting -- at least enough that there's almost always a "who is that supposed to be?" moment -- and they made sure to not show Greyworm until after poor White Rat was killed.  So I think the show really wanted people to be all up in "Nooooooooo! Damn you, Show! What is wrong with you?  Also, that headdress looks heavy.  But mostly?  What is wrong with you?!?"  

 

 

 

I agree to an extent, shimpy, but I also think that Stannis believes it is his duty to rule, and will use any means at his disposal to attain that. Not power, not wealth, not personal glory, not painted whores nor noble virgins, but duty is what drives Lord Lobster. His interpretation of duty might be a narrow vision, but it is sincere, and it is all he has right now to drive him forward.

 

I don't agree with that, Stumbler.  We have seen Stannis rather bitterly detail being sent to the back-of-beyond Dragonstone by Robert, despite all Stannis did during the rebellion.  He talked about it as an insult.  

 

So I don't think Stannis views being king as his duty, I think he views being King as a reward or his just due for doing his duty and that's not quite the same thing.  

 

 

 

Varys's plan doesn't make sense. He was having Dany spied on and arrange for an assassination because he supported her claim to the throne? Eh? He's either a very good liar or a very stupid plotter.

 

Or Varys only tells partial truths at any given time.  It's pretty clear he hadn't just been backing a restoration of any of the Targs to the Throne.  He was passing on accurate information to Robert, he did have Jorah spying on Viserys and Dany.   Maybe Varys felt that if Robert could defend the realm from a return of the Targs he'd be a worthy ruler, but mostly? I think Varys is just plain-old lying to Tyrion.  

Varys isn't the person who poisoned the psycho Joffrey and he didn't try to do anything about him before he reached the Throne either.  

I'm not sure what Varys game really is, but I don't think he's actually telling the unvarnished truth to Tyrion.  I think he says what he believes to be an expediently persuasive thing in constantly changing circumstances.   Dude's fluid and just course adjusts with ease.  That or there are six different Varys, they seldom talk and they all act independently, because what he told Tyrion doesn't actually make sense.  

Edited April 13, 2015 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

Hooray for Jon Snuh though, sparing Mance the indignity of burning alive.

Loved the dark humor of Mance's face upon learning he'd burn.  That's why you hire Ciaran Hinds, folks.  When an expression conveys a volume of unspoken text.

 

A hundred times "yes."  I loved how Jon made the best choice among nothing but bad choices.  When he turned away from the immolation, I thought (as we were meant to think) that he was sparing his own feelings and voting only with his feet.  Then the arrow.  As White Stumbler said: Jon is becoming interesting, as a subordinate taking initiative right up to the border of insubordination.  I suspect he and the new Watch Commander will be at odds but -- and this time, through Jon's maturity -- come to terms.  Jon is learning how to, as Cromwell put it in Wolf Hall, "exercise strength within his constraints."  

 

I liked the flashback that Cersei had at the beginning. At first I thought it was Myrcella in Dorne.

 

Me too!  Until she spoke about not fearing her father.  I wasn't impressed with the casting or maybe the costuming and make-up on the witch -- her very contemporary face kept blazoning through for me.  But her prophecy itself?  Gold.

 

During my series re-watch, I confirmed that Lancel has not been seen, even in the background, since Blackwater.

 

He was mentioned, only, last season: during the recess in Tyrion's trial, when Jaime falls into Tywin's trap of bartering for Tyrion's life, Jaime mentions Lancel (dismissively) as one of the few male Lannisters left to secure Tywin's legacy.  

 

Varys's plan doesn't make sense. He was having Dany spied on and arrange for an assassination because he supported her claim to the throne? Eh? He's either a very good liar or a very stupid plotter.

 

Varys might explain his having Dany spied on as his keeping watch on her (and Vicerys), having first placed them with his ally Illyrio for protection, then brokering Dany's marriage to Drogo to give Vicerys access to an army.  The assassination attempts? Will he perhaps spin that as having realized -- through Jorah's reports -- that Jorah was fully committed to Dany, and motivated and capable of fending off such amateurish efforts? A stretch, I know.  Was the poison in the wine perhaps not lethal, as a failsafe on Jorah's interference?  Or was Varys at that point prepared to sacrifice Dany and place all his bets on Vicerys and a Drogo committed to revenge?   As I recall from Varys and Illyrio's chat in the King's Landing crypts, Varys was concerned that the plan was moving too fast: time for a re-watch of that scene.

 

Even with all the Varys hints and machinations that suggested his Targaryn support -- or at least, his anyone-but-Robert-and-his-polluted-stepchildren dismay -- I  never imagined that Varys would be the envoy for Tyrion to Dany.  Or that this potential plot would be set in motion with such a quickness.  Then again, Varys had a lot of time on the boat to do something other than take Tyrion's shit.  I wonder what his plan was for Tyrion, if Varys hadn't realized, at the last, that he needed to accompany him? Have Illyrio serve as the match-maker (again)?  In fact, maybe that is still his plan. 

 

John Snow doesn't know how close he came to being penis leeched. I wonder if Mel knows something about his mother?

 

Or his father. As a Jon-is-son-of-Rhaegar advocate, I think Melisandre fee-fie-foe-fummed King's blood in him.

[AngelKitty]

I didn't realize that was a flashback until it was revealed. Do we know who the other girl was? And have we seen that witch in the present? Why did they even show us that flashback?

I'm very worried about Dany and the dragons.  I was quite sad when Dany locked them up last year.  I can't wait for Tyrion and Varys to get to her, she's really not a great leader and needs their help.

[stillshimpy]

I didn't realize that was a flashback until it was revealed. Do we know who the other girl was? And have we seen that witch in the present? Why did they even show us that flashback?

 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the other girl was someone Cersei did something very bad to, because what are the friggin' chances?  No clue who she is otherwise.  Probably one of those poor sods hung up to dry or rot at Castamere, by loving Papa.  So that we're all supposed to feel the irony of the "no need to fear my father" thing, because he'll have her gutted like a fish.   I'd say it was the serving girl that was beaten so badly in Cersei's stead that she lost an eye  ,but I think she was meant to be a peer. 

 

Maybe it was Lyanna Stark?   Hey, I actually like that one.  I'm sticking with that one.  

 

So who the hell was Cersei engaged to in the "Promised to the Prince" thing?  Rhaegar?  It can't have been, he'd been married long enough to produce children aplenty by the time of the Slaughter of Innocents (the folly of Tywin Lannister).  

 

Oh!  Maybe she was the poor thing that ended up married to Rhaegar? 

 

I agree with you on the casting for the witch, Pallas.  Witchypoo looked like she ought to be dealing from a Tarot deck, headscarf trailing metal medallions  and intoning things like "This is the Tower, it means....destruction....that will be twenty dollars, please." 

Edited April 13, 2015 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

I thought it was a bit slow for a premiere, or maybe I got used to the whole killing babies right on the first episode.

 

If Cersei hadn't said Lancel's name, I would have never recognized him!! I have no idea where that is going, but yeah, I smell trouble, since he was mentioning all the bad things him and Cersei had done.

 

I can't quote here, but I was also wondering if Cersei was engaged to the Prince, why did he ended up marrying that Dorne relative. Reaghar was the only Prince at the time, no?

 

Also, agree it was incredibly stupid of Stannis to kill Mance. I once thought he'd make a good king, but he's so freaking inflexible, he'd be terrible!!! Also, he's an idiot and whipped by Melissandre. He could have made a deal with Mance, they could've had an alliance, without having to force him to "bend the knee". Yeah, I know that meant a lot at those times, but at least he could've pretended to be partners and have Mance killed after he got the North back. And I'm becoming increasingly worried about Melissandre eyeing Jon Snow incessantly. What is she planning to do with him?

 

I'm glad Dany is getting some. I don't know what she can do about her dragons. It kills me that they're in that dungeon, but I understand why she did it. Although, it seems as if that was the first time in long that she had come down to visit them. Bad mommy!!

 

Add me to the list who don't understand what Vary is on. He could be lying, but we know for a fact he was helping Illyrio trying to get Viserys take the throne. But then he tries to have Dany killed? Was it maybe to get Drogo to support Viserys faster to try and avenge her?

 

-Edited because I'm not sure if the "previously on..."  of the episodes are ok. Just in case, it's gone now!

Edited April 13, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[Llywela]

Wasn't the attempt on Dany's life a direct order from Robert? Because he'd heard about her marriage and pregnancy and considered her (and the potential for another generation of Targaryens) a rising threat? I can't remember what order anything happened in back then - was it before or after Viserys was killed?

 

Mostly, I think Varys's plans are always flexible. He claims to work toward the best interests of the realm, so perhaps a plan he supports in one episode may not seem like such a good idea a few episodes later so he alters his approach accordingly.

[DirewolfPup]

I, too, thought the Cersei flashback was Mycella at first. I've been wanting to see Dorne since Season 2, A Show. Come on!

 

LF and Sansa were in a carriage moving West, right?  Dorne is south. Braavos is East. What is west besides Freys and Greyjoys?

 

Margaery and Tommen have upgraded to hand-holding in public. Soon, they'll be able to sit next to each other at lunchtime ;) Is it wrong that I find this "couple" adorable? For GoT, they're almost sweet, which means both are dead.

 

So what was the point of the Loras/Oliver/Margaery scene? Did Marge just hint that she was going to kill Cersei? Holy cow... speculation fairies are dancing in my head...

 

My big, huge gripe for this episode: timeline. 

1) Tywin's funeral is occurring within a week of his death. Brienne and Pod are in the same location. Brienne has cuts and bruises that are still apparent. These two plotlines would match time-wise. 

2) Now, at the wall, the commander guy is full health and walking around. How long does a stab wound take to heal? 2 weeks? 6 weeks?

3) Tyrion was in a box crossing the narrow sea by the super speedy boats. Yet he has a full (nicely manicured) beard. How long does that take to grow out? 2 weeks? a month?

4) Dany's dragons (who were named! yay!) are huuuuuge. They were twice as tall if you measure floor to shoulder. In S04E10, they were locked up. She had to bend down to get the chains around their necks. Now, when she goes to visit an unknown number of weeks later, they tower over her. 

[stillshimpy]

2) Now, at the wall, the commander guy is full health and walking around. How long does a stab wound take to heal? 2 weeks? 6 weeks?

 

Plus, way to stick with "Onward to Tedium!" as the battle cry for stories based at the Wall.  Oh goody, Jon will continue to have conflicts with authority figures.  The same one.  Again, some more.  The one I thought was charged with taking the Zomboni hand to Kings Landing.   Yet there he is, and we never heard "Holy living-dead crap!" about that again.  Also, I truly have no wish to be unkind, but if the actor is in possession of any dramatic range, he's keeping it locked up tighter than a banker's conscience. 

 

Another season of watching him glower at Jon and Jon look back in a challenging manner.  Hooray.  Everything old is new again, apparently.  *yawn*

 

 

 

4) Dany's dragons (who were named! yay!) are huuuuuge. They were twice as tall if you measure floor to shoulder. In S04E10, they were locked up. She had to bend down to get the chains around their necks. Now, when she goes to visit an unknown number of weeks later, they tower over her.

 

Yeah, that scene lacked oomph for me, although the CGI was fantastic! Seriously, they were so impressive.  Still, she's fireproof and whereas they might rip her to shreds, I knew they weren't going to.  Although, it at least would have been a full on "Whoa, did not see that coming!" 

The thing I really ended up wondering about in the aftermath of this episode is, what does Jaime think about the whole thing with Tyrion?  Or Tywin?   My husband was surprised that Cersei appeared to care that Tywin was dead, but she did always crave his approval.  Plus, he was the real power behind the family, so that made sense to me.  

 

Jaime I had a lot more trouble sorting out what I even think he might feel.  

 

Also, I am still a little bummed that Shae turned out to be so faithless and vindictive.  I thought she really cared about Tryion and I can't escape the feeling that A Show sort of cheated when it came to her.  Aside from looking like she was seething with jealousy (which would indicate that her feelings for Tyrion were real) , she never seemed that low.  Yes, I get she was a prostitute, but she also stayed with Tyrion when it involved being a maid.  I thought her feelings for him were genuine and so I can't quite process the "Okay, so Tyrion is just completely shattered from the Patricide he committed and finding out that Shae was....doing whatever Shae was doing, which I still don't fully grasp."  

Edited April 13, 2015 by stillshimpy

[DirewolfPup]

I've been thinking about Cersei and this prince she was promised to.  Would it be Rhegar? He ended up getting married to Oberyn's sister ("You raped her! You murdered her! You killed her children!").  I could definitely see that causing tension between the Martells and Lannisters. I wonder how that political firestorm would go down. Sticking with this theory, Rhegar/Targarians reject Cersei/Lannisters for whatever reason. Then Rhegar abandons his Dornish wife for Lyanna Stark. Cersei may have some lingering hatred of Martells and Starks because her betrothed chose both of them over her. After the war, Cersei is married off to Robert, who was in love with Lyanna. Very complex story if it turns out to be true.

[WhiteStumbler]

Could "the Prince" Cersei was supposed to marry be one of the Martells? Maybe that is why Oberyn (sniff) was at Casterly Rock shortly after Tyrion was born?

[stillshimpy]

Oh wow, how much happier (or perhaps, not) would Cersei's life have been if she had been married to Oberyn?  That would be sort of moving.  However, you'd think that would have come up and Oberyn was a second son, so it doesn't seem likely that Cersei would think that was such hot stuff.  

[janjan]

Shimpy: Also, I am still a little bummed that Shae turned out to be so faithless and vindictive.  I thought she really cared about Tryion and I can't escape the feeling that A Show sort of cheated when it came to her.

I believe she believed Tyrion when he pretended not to love her. He wanted her to get away for her own safety, but she wouldn't leave. So he called her a whore and insulted her every which way from Sunday. You could see from his pained face afterward that he didn't mean it, but you could see from her sobbing that she believed it. She took a swing at Bronn when he took hold of her to "escort" her to the ship, but actually took her to the tower, as we learned later. She might have thought that that, too, was Tyrion's idea.

 

Pallas: You have outdone yourself with "fee fi fo fumming" -- I laughed so hard I almost choked.

[WhiteStumbler]

janjan: Why do you think Bronn took Shae to a tower? Bronn took Shae to the ship, right? I always assumed that Tywin somehow snatched her off of that ship, and that it was not a double-cross from Bronn.

shimpy: Maybe the "Prince" was Oberyn's older brother, and they were all at The Rock together?

Edited April 13, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[janjan]

WS: Why do you think Bronn took Shae to a tower? Bronn took Shae to the ship, right? I always assumed that Tywin somehow snatched her off of that ship, and that it was not a double-cross from Bronn.

That possible, Stumbler, but I don't see how Tywin could have known about Shae's escape, and Bronn has always made no secret that he's for sale to the highest bidder. See Bronn, marriage of, courtesy of Cersei. Cersei knew from her handmaiden that something  Shae-related was afoot (I forget what exactly -- does anyone remember?), and she could have bribed Bronn to keep her informed. When she learned of the planned escape, she had Bronn take Shae to "the tower," which most likely means the Tower of the Hand. She expected that Tywin would make good on his threat to kill Tyrion's lover, but he engaged her services himself. In addition, when Tyrion pressed Bronn (before Joffrey's wedding) to confirm that Shae had escaped, Bronn was vague and dismissive.. My spidey senses went on alert right there.

[ChocButterfly]

I'm with you, Shimpy, I also thought the Shae betrayal didn't match the story and came from nowhere. Even if she did believe Tyrion when he insulted her to make her leave, I don't understand how she could be capable of working for Tywin, of all people!

 

Hey, KFH, you're right, Oberyn was also a prince! So maybe that was the Prince she was betrothed too. If that's the case, good riddance, Oberyn! Meaning, however he got out of that marriage, he was lucky!

 

I didn't understand the new commander thing. I think I missed it. They chose a new commander already? Who, that guy who hates Jon? I didn't understand that part. Also, I'm not really sold on Stannis practically running the whole place. It should be the NW commander making the decisions about the prisoners, even if Stannis rescued them from the battle. That's the NW castle. And how shitty of the rest of the kingdoms to not send troops to the Wall when they got the letters from the Maester. I know they're involved in their pitty little war, but you'd think they'd care more about a wildling invasion, or worst, WW!  But probably no one believed the letters.

Edited April 13, 2015 by ChocButterfly

[WhiteStumbler]

Yeah, if anyone watches anything other than A Show when it airs, please don't post here.

 

RE: the flashback prophecy. Something is wrong. The witch says that Cersei will have three children, but we know she had four, and one of them was Roberts child (black haired)! Joffrey (bleah), Tommen, Myrcella, and her black-haired first born...

 

Cersei: Handsome one, isn't he? I lost my first boy, a little black-haired beauty. He was a fighter too-- tried to beat the fever that took him. Forgive me. It's the last thing you need to hear right now.
Catelyn: I never knew.
Cersei: It was years ago. Robert was crazed, beat his hands bloody on the wall, all the things men do to show you how much they care. The boy looked just like him. Such a little thing A bird without feathers. They came to take his body away and Robert held me. I screamed and I battled, but he held me. That little bundle. They took him away and I never saw him again. Never have visited the crypt, never. I pray to the mother every morning and night that she return your child to you.

Edited April 13, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[Glory]

Well, I suppose if the child died it could be construed that she only had three living children. 

[WhiteStumbler]

Littlefinger is taking Sansa west where she will be safe from Cersei -- Harrenhall?

[DirewolfPup]

Whitestumbler, that's an excellent point about Cersei's lost boy. It makes the witch prediction seem just flat out wrong.

[Glory]

Whitestumbler, that's an excellent point about Cersei's lost boy. It makes the witch prediction seem just flat out wrong.

Unless Cersei just made up that story for whatever reason? 

 

Is it bad that I would believe a forest witch's ramblings over anything Cersei says any day of the week? 

[janjan]

Is it bad that I would believe a forest witch's ramblings over anything Cersei says any day of the week?

I'm with you, Glory. I didn't believe Cersei's baby story when she said it. Didn't she say somewhere that Robert was too drunk to consumate, and that she satisfied him "in other ways"? Or, oh wait, was that Gillian Darmody and the Commodore? They do have a lot in common.

Edited April 13, 2015 by janjan

[DirewolfPup]

I'm with you, Glory. I didn't believe Cersei's baby story when she said it. Didn't she say somewhere that Robert was too drunk to consumate, and that she satisfied him "in other ways"? Or, oh wait, was that Gillian Darmody and the Commodore? They do have a lot in common.

 

My impression was that she wanted a good, normal marriage with Robert initially. After all the "you're not Lyanna" baggage and dead son, she couldn't take it anymore. She said F-you to Robert and the realm.

[janjan]

You could be right, Puppy. We don't have clear evidence -- "ocular proof!" as the man said -- that she was lying.

[WhiteStumbler]

The scroll that LF received while watching Robin swing a sword like a palsied girl -- so it was news of Tywin Lannister's demise, right?

[ChocButterfly]

Hmmm, I didn't think too much about where Littlefinger and Sansa were going, but now you guys have me curious. Someone mentioned Harrenhal, Twyin was in control of Harrenhal, no? Now that Twyin is dead maybe LF is going there to seize the opportunity and take it? That would go well with our speculations of him slowly controlling more and more territory. 

 

And what about Brienne, where is she going? I don't see how she can get any clues of where to look for Sansa. It seems pointless. 

 

I don't know why they showed Winterfell if it didn't appeared in the episode. Although, I'm glad we didn't get to see anything about Ramsey. It'd be fine by me if they just ignore that story.

[90PercentGravity]

Hmmm, I didn't think too much about where Littlefinger and Sansa were going, but now you guys have me curious. Someone mentioned Harrenhal, Twyin was in control of Harrenhal, no? Now that Twyin is dead maybe LF is going there to seize the opportunity and take it? That would go well with our speculations of him slowly controlling more and more territory. 

 

And what about Brienne, where is she going? I don't see how she can get any clues of where to look for Sansa. It seems pointless. 

 

I don't know why they showed Winterfell if it didn't appeared in the episode. Although, I'm glad we didn't get to see anything about Ramsey. It'd be fine by me if they just ignore that story.

Joffrey gave Harrenhal to LF.

[ChocButterfly]

Ahh, siii. Sorry, I keep forgetting these things. Right then, I've got nothing!

[gingerella]

GHOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Who gives a shit about anything else in this episode other than GHOST!  We have a live direpup sighting people, yeah!!!

[Pallas]

Yeah, how dead is improved-for-your-viewing-pleasure Lancel?  Because I'm thinking he's pretty damned dead, seeing as he went out of his way to remind Cersei "Hey, remember that time we totally killed the King together? Oh the times we had! Good times.  Treasonous times.  Times punishable by death.   Did I mention I have discovered virtue?  Virtuous and pious times too."

 

Eek!  Tyrion and Jaime shooting the breeze in Tyrion's cell, just before Tyrion's Cousin Orson monologue.  They discuss the many words to depict murder within on'e family, and realize that there is no word for the murder of one's cousin.  

 

How interesting would it be if this actually foreshadowed Lancel's killing Cersei?  With poisoned wine, of course -- "a woman 's weapon."   

 

So who the hell was Cersei engaged to in the "Promised to the Prince" thing?  Rhaegar?  It can't have been, he'd been married long enough to produce children aplenty by the time of the Slaughter of Innocents (the folly of Tywin Lannister). Oh!  Maybe she was the poor thing that ended up married to Rhaegar?

 

It might still have been Rhaegar, shimpy, if he married shortly after the flashback scene, and his wife bore children in successive years.  As I recall, the children were said to have been all very young.  And young-Cersei, when told she won't marry the prince but instead, the King, quickly asks, "But I'll still be Queen?"  So that suggests the prince was heir to the throne.

 

I love your idea that the girl with Cersei is Oberyn's sister.  Though she had no "Dornish" accent -- and Oberyn told Tyrion he'd hated the accents heard at Casterly Rock -- that still doesn't rule her out.

  

He could have made a deal with Mance, they could've had an alliance, without having to force him to "bend the knee". Yeah, I know that meant a lot at those times, but at least he could've pretended to be partners and have Mance killed after he got the North back.

 

But Mance told Jon that even more than bending the knee, he objected to the Free People's fighting for Stannis.  That was what he refused to countenance.  He wanted to keep faith with his people, so that they would refuse Stannis's terms. That was what he felt his death could be worth.  Jon pointed out that the Free People's refusing Stannis's terms would doom everyone; Mance was unmoved.  Mance almost seemed to leave it to Jon to find a way to move Stannis, after Mance was gone.   

 

Mostly, I think Varys's plans are always flexible. He claims to work toward the best interests of the realm, so perhaps a plan he supports in one episode may not seem like such a good idea a few episodes later so he alters his approach accordingly.

 

I agree, Llywela.  For the moment, I do think Varys is sincere about working for the good of the Realm, though it's also true that his arguments to Tyrion were beautifully calibrated to what he would think Tyrion might want to hear.  It's a tribute to the character and the portrayal that this deep into the story, there's no way to be sure, and several contradictory possibilities are still in play.  

 

Also, I am still a little bummed that Shae turned out to be so faithless and vindictive.  I thought she really cared about Tryion and I can't escape the feeling that A Show sort of cheated when it came to her.

 

I agree, shimpy.  I could believe that Shae would have been broken by Tyrion's rejection of her, and by his proving her own worst feat of him and of herself: that he saw her only as a whore; that she was nothing but a whore.  Within the hour, she was then brought to Tywin by Bronn or the King's Guard.  Whenever Tywin got around to seeing her, Tywin saw that she was broken, and smashed her. Smashed her as Ramsay did Theon: smashed her into submission to his view of her, and her self-hatred.  Tyrion told the crowd at his trial, "I wish I were the monster that you think I am!"; Shae chose to become that creature.  And, she had no other option if she wanted to live a few more days.  No Wall for her; no trial by combat; no brother or secret friend to rescue her.  She could make herself useful to Tywin, or die. She could adore the winner, or die.  

 

What I don't buy is that Shae ever bought Tyrion's rejection.  Shae was insecure and Shae was jealous, but even so, Tyrion's big speech to Shae just wasn't good enough. It wasn't subtle, it wasn't grotesque, it wasn't piercing, it didn't contain enough truth to be a good con. So her immediate reaction -- her anguish, her tears -- didn't ring true. Everything that followed between Shae and Tyrion and Tywin hinged on that, and could have felt horribly true, if the writing of that speech had lived up to its consequences.  

[Anothermi]

Arg. I lost a longish post addressing the discussion to this point. Can't rewrite it right now, so will just add a tidbit I noticed in my continued re-watch of season 4. Episode 7, Littlefinger explaining to Robin why he has to leave the Aeyrie. Forshadowing... 

 

Robin says it's not safe outside and LF tells him him it's not safe inside either. His mother died inside. "People die at their dinner tables, they die in their beds, they die squatting over their chamber pots.,,,"  Um-hum. Like Tywin.  ;-)

 

(if this is better located in the speculation thread, Mods, feel free to move it there.)

Edited April 14, 2015 by Anothermi

[stillshimpy]

It might still have been Rhaegar, shimpy, if he married shortly after the flashback scene, and his wife bore children in successive years.

 

 

That's true, Pallas, plus I feel like the show might have changed the timeline we were originally given to understand.  Or it is possible I just misunderstood it back in season one.   I thought Cersei was only sixteen when she married Robert,  and I thought Jaime was sixteen when he killed the Aerys.   However, last season Joffrey taunted Jaime with being forty-years-old and having nothing on his page of note.  So it's possible she was older when she married Robert.  

 

By the way, incredibly sad echoes of Sansa's pride in being betrothed to a Prince , but without the starry-eyed romance of it all.  Even child Cersei had a terrifying practicality and power-seeking vibe that doesn't fit (pretty much at all) with what she told Ned in that garden (about how Robert was the hero of the Kingdoms and she was so proud to be marrying him).  More importantly, I'm not sure it even fits with that scene between Robert and Cersei when she asked if they ever had a chance to love one another.  Robert rather brutally answers no and asks how that makes Cersei feel.  

 

I love your idea that the girl with Cersei is Oberyn's sister.  Though she had no "Dornish" accent -- and Oberyn told Tyrion he'd hated the accents heard at Casterly Rock -- that still doesn't rule her out.

 

I don't think she was Oberyn's sister, by the way . I think she could have been Lyanna Stark.  Dark haired (check) , concerned with doing something naughty (check) and there would just be some serious bite to that whole setup if the very haughty young Cersei, so assured of her brilliant future, was standing there with the girl her currently intended would ruin a freaking Kingdom to have (whether or not it was a consensual thing and I just don't think it was, Aery's Targaryen burned Lyanna's father and brother alive...you leave the dude whose dad does that, if you have a chance).  It would make for an even sharper edged knife-to-the-heart if she was also the girl who was the reason Cersei's marriage to the King was doomed.  

 

This is Cersei's memory, I think.  We cut to her, I think sort of contemplating what a drive for power and control has done to her entire family.  

 

Yeah, I really like the idea that she was standing there with Lyanna Stark.  

 

Onward to Brienne's existential dilemma:  Wow.  That was  a frustrating scene.  I don't know what will become of Brienne, but her self-pitying "Arya didn't want my protection!" thing startled me slightly.  I get that if anyone has reason to feel like she's achieved advanced levels in personal failure, it is probably Brienne.  She adored Renly and that ended poorly (understatement alert) .  I think she genuinely admired Catelyn and feels like she failed her on every known level.  

 

Still.  Not the best scene because all it established was that Brienne is about ready to give the hell up and that's where the scene left us too.  My chief complaint being "sure, who could blame her but....maybe a hint of what they are actually going to do?"  because (incoming spitball) there's a Stark left out there in the world who could use her protection.   Rickon seems to have left the story, stage left, but he's hanging with the Umbers and she could find him.  I wish we'd been given some idea of what she was going to do, other than gaze at her armor-clad navel while berating Pod.  

 

Finally, I am likely the only person who believes this, but that's okay:  The story did finally let us know that Littlefinger had Jon Arryn killed (Lyssa, you really were a piece of work with tragic taste in....everything, really), which means that Cersei and Jaime didn't have him killed, despite knowing he knew about them (although, we still don't know how they knew that, do we?).  The only time Cersei has seemed genuinely troubled was when Joffrey had all of Robert's bastard sons murdered.  Then also, there has always existed that strange scene (that suffered from "huh? where'd that come from...?"  edting) was Cersei pushing Jaime and saying, "What were you thinking? He's a ten-year-old boy!"  about Bran.  

 

Cersei's only redeeming feature seems to be a fondness for children.  She views them as her saving grace (told Tyrion to knock up Sansa so she'd have a reason to live).   

I think she did have son with Robert and I don't believe she ever said it wasn't a consummated marriage.  She said "he did what he could do, which wasn't much"  which just as easily could mean the sex was just awful from her perspective.  

 

Also, I'm assuming that Margaery's hat-trick of King Slaying will play through and besotted Tommen is a dead King walking.  

 

[Pallas]

Even child Cersei had a terrifying practicality and power-seeking vibe that doesn't fit (pretty much at all) with what she told Ned in that garden (about how Robert was the hero of the Kingdoms and she was so proud to be marrying him

Is that so contradictory, though?  Cersei might always have wanted to be queen, and still, either retained or discovered some stray longings for romance. (Diana Spencer both set her cap for the Prince of Wales, and believed herself in love with Charles.) All Cersei would ever have heard from her only living parent was, the advantages to her and the her family, of her being Queen.  Tywin would not only have impressed on his daughter that her great marriage would elevate her above all other women in the land -- he would have made it clear that her great marriage was her only way to his heart.  Marrying for power was the one way for Cersei to express her love for her father.  And meanwhile, Cersei was a girl and not a young woman in the flashback scene: hormones hadn't yet done their job on her. As for her heart, the affair with Jaime -- an infinitely impractical and passionate undertaking -- was still to come, and last for decades.  

 

All in all, I see Cersei as exhibiting the extra bitterness and madness of a someone hating herself for her own dashed illusions. Illusions.  Illusions Tywin would have despised in a man, and told Cersei just proved that she was no more than a woman.

[WhiteStumbler]

Ned: You've always hated him.
Cersei: Hated him? I worshiped him. Every girl in the Seven Kingdoms dreamed of him, but he was mine by oath. And when I finally saw him on our wedding day in the Sept of Baelor, lean and fierce and black-bearded, it was the happiest moment of my life. Then that night he crawled on top of me, stinking of wine and did what he did-- what little he could do-- and whispered in my ear, "Lyanna." Your sister was a corpse and I was a living girl and he loved her more than me.

 

So they had sex, the little black-haired beauty was his, and so the witches' prophecy is wrong, unless I'm missing something.

 

And shimpy, I don't think Cersei is fond of children in the generic, but rather her children.

[stillshimpy]

And shimpy, I don't think Cersei is fond of children in the generic, but rather her children.

 

No, I didn't mean she likes the tykes as in "let's hang out and I'll read you a story" , I meant she actually seems to view children as primarily innocents in the world.  Non-combatants.  That her wishing Bran would recover for his mother's sake was sincere and that she wasn't lying about her feelings for that departed child.  That and she was disturbed by the slaughter of all of Robert's children (or so it seemed).  

[gingerella]

I think she could have been Lyanna Stark.  Dark haired (check) , concerned with doing something naughty (check) and there would just be some serious bite to that whole setup if the very haughty young Cersei, so assured of her brilliant future, was standing there with the girl her currently intended would ruin a freaking Kingdom to have (whether or not it was a consensual thing and I just don't think it was, Aery's Targaryen burned Lyanna's father and brother alive...you leave the dude whose dad does that, if you have a chance).  It would make for an even sharper edged knife-to-the-heart if she was also the girl who was the reason Cersei's marriage to the King was doomed.

I rather like the above possibility, though you all have way more insight than I do on watching as I had no clue who the dark haired girl was, but knew rather quickly that the blond was Cersei. I liked having a flashback to better understanding of the characters and events we already know about, though it didn't exactly lead to better understanding...yet, because you know how A Show is...cheeky bastard.

 

I gotta say though, overall I felt very 'meh' about this first season episode. It left me feeling like "what? is that all there is?" I just didn't feel any great 'Oh yeah, A Show is back!" other than when I saw Ghost gnawing on his après battle bone. I wonder if it was a human bone...hmmm.  But overall, the scene with Tyrion out of the Box was okaaay, realistic even given what he'd just endured, and yet I was like, 'whatever' about his scenes. Sansa and LF scenes were so so, wondered where he's spiriting her away to, probably across the sea somewhere so she'll intersect with the others perhaps, or maybe with Arya...

 

Oooo,Oooo, spitball!!! What is Sansa makes it to Braavos and actually meets up with Arya but Arya has face-shifted and Sansa doesnt' know it's her sister and Arya cannot tell her who she is? That might be interesting, but I don't want to lose the actress who plays Arya so I'm torn on that one...

 

Where was I? Oh yes, Cersei/Jaime scenes were flat for me. The only thing I can say about Cousin Fucker is that he's either going to get Cersei killed or she'll kill him what with his newfound piety and keen memory of events between them. Dany and the Dragoons was not very interesting and we all knew the kids would be mad a mom after locking them up in a dark dungeon, apparently without food. How are they even alive now? Oh, they're magical, nevermind.

 

And then there's Mel, I just cant with that witch. I loathe the character, her lines, her actions, I just hate her. She's tops on my Death List right now. She's so hokey pokey it's laughable, except it's not funny.

 

I just hope A Show gets better next week because this barely kept my attention. Is it me, or is it A Show?

Edited April 14, 2015 by gingerella

[janjan]

This is probably the wrong thread for this, but to close out a brief discussion above:

 

The noon news just reported that, indeed, the first four episodes of S5 were leaked online, most likely by one of the reviewers who received an advance CD. HBO is ripshit and actively seeking the perp. Expect an immolation.

[WhiteStumbler]

shimpy: I'm only half sure that Cersei had any actual sympathy for Bran, and less than half sure that Cersei didn't order the killing of Robert's bastard children herself. She semi-denied it to Tyrion, but still...

 

"Making honest feelings do dishonest work is one of her many gifts."

Edited April 14, 2015 by WhiteStumbler

[janjan]

I just hope A Show gets better next week because this barely kept my attention. Is it me, or is it A Show?

I'm with you, Gingerella. I thought the ep was kinda flat. It was like an establishing shot that tells the audience where things stand but doesn't advance them much. To anyone who has been paying attention, let alone obsessing like we do, it was kinda unnecessary.

[90PercentGravity]

I think it is typical for the first episode to be a bit dull. It's been off for a year and there is a lot of stuff that needs to be reestablished before we can really get into the story. The second episode is usually when things really get going. Didn't Joffs die in the second ep last year?

Edited April 14, 2015 by 90PercentGravity

[stillshimpy]

Stumbler, I'm pretty sure Cersei didn't order the slaughter of those children, but like most things, we don't know for sure.  However, here's my reasoning:  pretty much thus far when it has seemed clear as day that Cersei Lannister was behind something fully reprehensible, someone else turns out to be the guilty party.  Joffrey defied her and chopped off Ned's head.   It turns out they didn't kill Jon Arryn ( which was my real "okay, time to reevaluate" moment, because I would have SWORN that the only people who made sense for that were Jaime and Cersei) .  

 

Here's another thing, I don't for a single second buy that Cersei was unaware that Robert was paying money out to take care of his many and varied bastard children.  The Lannister purse strings held the Kingdom together.   It turned out that Joffrey tried to have Tyrion killed, not Cersei.   When Cersei thought she had a hold of Tyrion's paramour, she had Roz's eye blackened rather that bringing in a head on a plate.   A black eye , after all the "I hope it turns ashes in your mouth" threatening.  

 

So I am really not arguing for Cersei's good character over here, because she's sort of a vindictive shrew, but she doesn't seem to actually order people killed very often:  Witness Margaery's continued existence and life despite having now enthralled two of Cersei's children and the only one remaining in King's Landing.  

 

Cersei's pretty reprehensible and she did seem to order Robert....drugged actually.   I've never been super clear on how drugging Robert could have been a good plan to kill him, but it is the Seven Kingdoms and the assassination plots are usually pretty laughable.  But here's the thing, those bastards were allowed to live for kind of a while after Joffrey reached the Throne, until Joffrey heard the rumors of his parentage.  The other thing is, Cersei hated Tyrion.  Hated him.  

 

She still didn't have him killed outside of the trial.  So I'm never sure how much a killer Cersei really is or isn't, but the one I was just sure she was behind?  She wasn't  and she had a lot of reason to have Jon Arryn killed.  She has a lot of reason to have Margaery Tyrell killed too.  So I don't know.  I don't think she had those children killed, because I've seen nothing to actually support it.  

 

 

 

I gotta say though, overall I felt very 'meh' about this first season episode. It left me feeling like "what? is that all there is?" I just didn't feel any great 'Oh yeah, A Show is back!" other than when I saw Ghost gnawing on his après battle bone. I wonder if it was a human bone...hmmm.  But overall, the scene with Tyrion out of the Box was okaaay, realistic even given what he'd just endured, and yet I was like, 'whatever' about his scenes. Sansa and LF scenes were so so, wondered where he's spiriting her away to, probably across the sea somewhere so she'll intersect with the others perhaps, or maybe with Arya...

 

Yeah, I admit, I didn't find the episode enthralling.  It was a lot of setup and not a lot of action.  That normally wouldn't matter that much, but there are only ten episodes, so I don't like the "setting up the dominoes" eps much.  Plus, it felt like kind of a lot of time spent on moments that didn't have a lot of story impact.   I feel like we could have been spared the description of Tyrion's travels in the box and sort of condensed the scenes a bit more to reflect "Tyrion, determined to drink himself to death, but Varys is trying to persuade him otherwise" into one scene rather than watching Tyrion drink, throw-up, continue drinking THEN return for more updating on how much self-pity Tyrion was willing to keep wallowing in.

 

Between Tyrion and Brienne, there was sort of a lot of navel-gazing going on.  Then add in the scene of Margaery interrupting Loras fun times with a friend and honestly?  The flashback might have been my favorite scene next to watching Robyn be whacked with a wooden sword.  

Edited April 14, 2015 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

The dramatic build-up to Mance's roasting seemed to drag on a bit, bit that is my only nit to pick, as far as pacing goes.

 

She has a lot of reason to have Margaery Tyrell killed too.

-stillshimpy

Shocking, especially considering that Margaery has called Cersei "sister" TWICE since her threat in the Sept.

[Anothermi]

I don't think she was Oberyn's sister, by the way . I think she could have been Lyanna Stark.  Dark haired (check) , concerned with doing something naughty (check) and there would just be some serious bite to that whole setup if the very haughty young Cersei, so assured of her brilliant future, was standing there with the girl her currently intended would ruin a freaking Kingdom to have (whether or not it was a consensual thing and I just don't think it was, Aery's Targaryen burned Lyanna's father and brother alive...you leave the dude whose dad does that, if you have a chance).  It would make for an even sharper edged knife-to-the-heart if she was also the girl who was the reason Cersei's marriage to the King was doomed.  

 

This is Cersei's memory, I think.  We cut to her, I think sort of contemplating what a drive for power and control has done to her entire family.  

 

Yeah, I really like the idea that she was standing there with Lyanna Stark.  

...........

 

Also, I'm assuming that Margaery's hat-trick of King Slaying will play through and besotted Tommen is a dead King walking.

 

While I like the irony implicit in the dark-haired girl in the flashback being Lyanna Stark, I don't believe it's her - for a lot of reasons:

 

1 - The animosity between the Lannisters and the Starks seems to have had a loooong history. Like, way before the rebellion that overthrew the Targs. I just don't see the Starks sending her to stay with the Lannisters for ANY reason. (Cersei made a point of saying the witch was on HER land and she could have her eyes gouged out if the witch didn't tell her fortune.) 

 

2 - re: the bolded bit... I never got the impression that Lyanna was the least bit concerned about doing something naughty. I have a memory that someone said Arya reminded them of Lyanna which would also indicate that Lyanna was headstrong, not meek and obedient. Perhaps WhiteStumbler, who has done a recent series re-watch, could help me out here? I don't really trust my memory, but I know I didn't get any impression that Lyanna was an obedient girl concerned about being naughty. 

 

So, I'm of the other opinion, that the dark-haired girl in the flashback is likely Oberyn's sister. Here are my reasons for that opinion:

 

- Oberyn told Tyrion the story of when he 1st met him. (I just rewatched that horrible episode yesterday and my heart is still racing from the final scene!) :-/

It was shortly after Tyrion was born. He said he and his sister, Elia were excited about visiting Casterly Rock because they had heard about the "monster" that was just born to Tywin.  So, Elia (later to be Rhaegar's wife) was there and she & Cercei were just young girls. From what little I know of her, she would be more likely to be someone who would be concerned about doing something naughty, but of course that is mostly speculation. 

 

As far as who the "prince" that Cersei assumed she would be marrying could be? Both Martell boys would be Princes, no? At that time at least. The older one would become King of Dorne, but Oberyn might be a possible candidate as well. So might Rhaegar, but it makes a lot more political sense for him to be betrothed to Elia so as to cement alliances with Dorne. Tywin was already Hand of the King (he served as the Mad King's Hand for 20 years if we believe Tyrion) so no need to strengthen an alliance with him via marrying Rhaegar to Cercei.  Rhaegar was married to Elia long enough to produce 2 children, so (spitball lobbing) possibly, the Martell's upset Tywin's plans of marrying Cersei to Rhaegar (leading to bad blood and a possible motive for Tywin to order the killing of Elia and the children) or the "prince" the child-Cersei referred to was someone else. 

 

And on a bit of a tangent to the main point of this post, the witch stated that the "King" Cersei would marry would have 20 children and Cersei would have 3. Putting aside the lack of addressing the child they had together who didn't live, I found 20 an exceedingly low number!! I assumed there would be hundreds. Perhaps in his Kingly years his constant inebriation proved to be an effective contraceptive measure? 

 

That small scene now has me worrying for Mycella because the witch said Cersei's three children would have golden crowns and golden shrouds. I agree with Shimpy that Tommen has to now be dead child walking (that was my comment in the post I lost yesterday, so great minds thing alike - in some things - Shimpy!)

 

But Mycella? Noooo!

[DirewolfPup]

Anothermi
 

So, I'm of the other opinion, that the dark-haired girl in the flashback is likely Oberyn's sister. Here are my reasons for that opinion:

 

- Oberyn told Tyrion the story of when he 1st met him. (I just rewatched that horrible episode yesterday and my heart is still racing from the final scene!) :-/

It was shortly after Tyrion was born. He said he and his sister, Elia were excited about visiting Casterly Rock because they had heard about the "monster" that was just born to Tywin.  So, Elia (later to be Rhaegar's wife) was there and she & Cercei were just young girls. From what little I know of her, she would be more likely to be someone who would be concerned about doing something naughty, but of course that is mostly speculation.

 

Except the story Oberyn told was when Tyrion was a baby. In the flashback, Cersei looked to be anywhere from 11 to 14 years old. So that would mean Cersei (and Jamie) are 11 years older than Tyrion.  A Show has already revealed that the Lanni-twins are 40. So Tyrion is 29? Plus, that's a huge gap between children for momma Lanni.

 

I'm going to say that this mysterious brown-haired girl is neither Lyanna nor Oberyn's sister.

[janjan]

It turned out that Joffrey tried to have Tyrion killed, not Cersei.

I don't remember that, Shimpy. Can you remind me when we learned that? The only thing I remember is that when Tyrion and Varys had their tete-a-tete over the sorcerer in the box, Tyrion was convinced that Cersei had dunnit.

 

Also, I'm quite sure that Olenna, not My Little Margie [anyone who remembers that is older than F-Troop], killed Joff, with Petyr's assistance. Olenna admitted as much to Marg. Mrs. Peel is the ultimate badass, though she is selective in her prey -- only bad guys (as far as we know).