S03.E08: Divestment

[SlackerInc]

Actually, Nina at first agreed to Stan's plan to frame Vasili and she flipped to the KGB's side when it became obvious Stan wasn't going to deliver and that Arkady might actually give her a chance. 

 

I interpreted Nina's flip quite differently: that when she took the oath to be true to her country, it aroused a deep level of patriotism and thus an associated feeling of intense guilt for being a traitor.  She then came clean purely out of conscience.

 

And the country she would be working for, is America's #1 enemy, and she would have been exposed to anti-Soviet sentiment from school and society in general.

 

I don't think this is all that big a factor in Paige's case.  The pastor she idolizes was arrested right in front of her for protesting against the American government's use of nuclear weapons, presumably aimed at the Soviet Union.

 

While the U.S. mainstream in the '80s was anti-USSR, there was a distinct minority that was not, who saw the Reagan administration as the real enemy.  My family was part of a church that was very much in that fervent minority (participating, for instance, in the sanctuary movement for Latin American leftists), and Paige's church looks very familiar to me.

[Milburn Stone]

I found it interesting that P&E argued for mercy for Young SA guy (and prevailed). The show needs to show them doing that every once in a while--needs to humanize them--or we would completely loathe them for the things they do, which are generally unspeakable. But it also makes sense within the universe of the show. It is only the fact that P&E have become human--have evolved beyond being Soviet automatons--that allows them to pass, in their primary disguise, as ordinary Americans. True unfeeling automatons would never be able to bring it off. So P&E are actually more useful to the Soviets as spies the way they are. And since that's true, their humanity works for the Greater Cause even at the same time it can be a fatal flaw in their work. A fascinating paradox.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Milburn Stone

[stillshimpy]

I thought Nina flipped because Yuri (that was her friend's name, wasn't it? Something like that) was murdered, Nina suspected it was Stan. Stan denied it (although it was, in fact, Stan) and Nina a) realized she couldn't or shouldn't fully trust Stan b) she wasn't up for working for the side that murdered an innocent kid as a pure act of revenge for someone else's misdeed. 

 

She's asking Paige to be a traitor in ways she herself never has been. - sistermapie

This is such a brilliant point.  Elizabeth is fighting and killing for the country she was born and raised in.  She is doing this for everyone she has ever known and loved.  If Paige starting working for the KGB, she will be fighting and betraying the only country she's ever known.- Red Head Zombie

 

That is an excellent point and beyond that, whether or not Elizabeth has tried to instill messages that capitalism is bad or keep them from becoming spoiled American children -- we saw her talking to Gabriel about how weird she found American parenting in a flashback -- the atmosphere Paige moves around and lives in was pretty patriotic.   Rather than use a particularly political example, when the USA beat the Soviet Union in the winter Olympics in hockey?  It was a BIG deal.  I was a kid (younger than Paige) at the time, but everyone watched that.  It was a very, very big deal.  

 

Since Philip and Elizabeth can't really risk instilling any obvious pro-communism messages in their kids, they have actually been exposed to a lot of information that would make up for the lack of rah-rah-rah USA going on in that household too.   Besides, Elizabeth is discounting something else and it makes sense given that she just wouldn't personally see it this way: but the societal view of many of the Soviet actions was quite simply that they were fairly inhumane.  That's something that is actually going to matter to Paige given her own interests.  Or it should if the show is doing all of this purposefully.  I think it is.  Elizabeth has trouble seeing the worth of individuals as individuals (which makes sense), but Paige clearly does.  

 

There's one other thing about how anyone seemed or acted, or answered in that questioning with Taffet:  Their answers aren't really going to be the most important thing.  I mean, if you drag a bunch of people into a room and ask them, "Are you a spy?  Have you colluded with spies?"  every stinking last one of them will say, "No.  Hell, no." with varying degrees of inflection, including and pretty much especially, the spy.  

 

Demeanor, not the answers matter, and should be what Taffet is trying to dig around to see if he can crack anyone, but they'd hardly expect the person who planted the bug to sit down and say, "Well, fair play to you! I'm busted.  You caught me fair and square."    

[shura]

Elizabeth is fighting and killing for the country she was born and raised in.  She is doing this for everyone she has ever known and loved.  If Paige starting working for the KGB, she will be fighting and betraying the only country she's ever known.  She's fighting against her way of life, and the lives of everyone she's ever cared about.

 

Elizabeth is fighting more for the ideology than for her country. If the Sandinistas fail in Nicaragua, or if apartheid keeps on going is South Africa, the USSR and its people won't really be in any danger. I suppose an argument can be made that advancing communism worldwide would eliminate all Soviet enemies and thus would benefit the country, but I don't think this was ever voiced in such terms. The dogmatic Soviet thinking was that everybody's life would eventually be better under communism and fighting for it was intended to bring better life to the (working) people of the world. If Elizabeth succeeds in making Paige believe this, then Paige will not see it as treason and fighting against her country and its people -- she'll actually think she is fighting for her country, for making it a better place for the people she knows.

 

I thought Nina flipped because Yuri (that was her friend's name, wasn't it? Something like that) was murdered

 

I think his name was Vlad. Vlad's death is actually another reason why I don't think Arkady is trying to go with Oleg's wishes (rather than his father's, here and now) out of any potential career considerations. Who is to say Oleg will even live long enough to return the favor? It is unlikely, of course, that another diplomat will be murdered, but spying is a dangerous business, anything can happen.

 

So, what kind of dog do you all think Snuffy is? I can see Aderholt with something small, shaggy and cuddly under his arm.

Edited March 23, 2015 by shura

[Boundary]

I interpreted Nina's flip quite differently: that when she took the oath to be true to her country, it aroused a deep level of patriotism and thus an associated feeling of intense guilt for being a traitor.  She then came clean purely out of conscience.

 

I thought Nina flipped because Yuri (that was her friend's name, wasn't it? Something like that) was murdered, Nina suspected it was Stan. Stan denied it (although it was, in fact, Stan) and Nina a) realized she couldn't or shouldn't fully trust Stan b) she wasn't up for working for the side that murdered an innocent kid as a pure act of revenge for someone else's misdeed. 

 

Both points are actually valid. Stan killing her friend was the first clue that Nina got that maybe she might be on the wrong side. Also, when she took the oath it deeply affected her and she became patriotic. Somewhere in between and around those two events she decided to trust Arkady (as she already mistrusted Stan). But even after those events, we still wondered for a while exactly whose side she's on (answer: Nina). So in hindsight, flipping to Arkady's side was a calculated move, she knew she had Stan around her finger (to an extent) and she could offer that to Arkady. Martha doesn't have something similar to offer Clark yet but if she proactively spied, she has access to pretty valuable intel.

[Morgan of Hed]

At this point I fail to understand why Martha is still breathing.

[sistermagpie]

It's a real good point, and it raises another in my mind.  Given who Elizabeth is, how could she raise children without at least subliminally planting the seeds of of communism into their fabric?  She wouldn't have to risk exposing herself in any way.  Just lead her kids (subtly if needed) down the path of her own beliefs.  Whether or not she is grooming them to become Soviet spies, she'd want them to know the 'truth' about the world -- i.e. the truth she so fervently believes in.

 

 

Well, they managed to raise a kid who was open to anti-Reagan feeling at least, so I think they possibly did instill some things in her. She hasn't gotten any hardcore stuff, but she may have picked up some things. She managed to pick up that her parents were anti-religion despite them not seeming to have ever lectured on the subject. We have seen Elizabeth reacting to anti-Soviet rhetoric when it comes up, even if she rarely gets to the point of being able to correct it.

 

And the country she would be working for, is America's #1 enemy, and she would have been exposed to anti-Soviet sentiment from school and society in general.

 

I don't think this is all that big a factor in Paige's case.  The pastor she idolizes was arrested right in front of her for protesting against the American government's use of nuclear weapons, presumably aimed at the Soviet Union.

 

 

 

I don't think Paige has any particular hatred of the Soviet Union and could definitely be on the side of people who choose Communism for themselves rather than trying to force them to be something else just because of the Cold War. But she might still have plenty of ideas about the Soviet Union not being a country she'd ever want to fight for. That's different than not wanting to attack them. It's more attacking US interference--so Elizabeth would probably have to lean on the idea (that she no doubt believes) that this is strictly a defensive war on the Soviet side.

 

I thought Nina flipped because Yuri (that was her friend's name, wasn't it? Something like that) was murdered, Nina suspected it was Stan. Stan denied it (although it was, in fact, Stan) and Nina a) realized she couldn't or shouldn't fully trust Stan b) she wasn't up for working for the side that murdered an innocent kid as a pure act of revenge for someone else's misdeed.

 

 

I think Vlad's death and the oath were both shown as moments that effected Nina. Which makes sense. Vlad gives her something personal to focus on and patriotism is more abstract. Which goes back to the Paige thing--abandoning your country, especially for one you've never even seen--is pretty lonely.

 

If Elizabeth succeeds in making Paige believe this, then Paige will not see it as treason and fighting against her country and its people -- she'll actually think she is fighting for her country, for making it a better place for the people she knows.

 

 

True, and many people did see it like that. We've met American traitors who very believably don't consider themselves as acting against their country when they try to keep the arms race equal, for instance.

 

But still, of course selling state secrets is treason--legally. And of course the Soviet Union is a country rather than just a idea of socialism, which Paige knows. And she's got access to plenty of information about the dark side of that country. While I'm sure Elizabeth does see her fight as international she's also a girl who grew up in Smolensk after the Great Patriotic War. And she herself described Gregory as betraying his country. The only Americans she likes are traitors, pretty much, so I imagine that if she was seeing Paige as not being a traitor to her country by spying for the USSR it would be because she considers Paige actually Soviet.

 

Paige has made a couple of casual statements that show a standard US view of the USSR, like writing a paper on how the Soviets cheat on arms treaties and identifying Poland as "part of Russia," both of which Elizabeth obviously objected to. Not speaking with any real authority here, but by the 1980s it seems like there was less overlooking of Soviet abuses than there had been in the past on the left. Elizabeth would actually have a lot of pop-culture anti-Soviet stuff to dismantle in Paige, some of which she actually seems to embody, making it a bit more difficult. 

Edited March 23, 2015 by sistermagpie

[Blakeston]

Not sure one exists. I jokingly mentioned Martha sending her parents "an 8x10 of the wedding photo" in an earlier post. Mostly just meant that Martha would want to get the largest size AND send one to her parents, even if they had to hide it from display, like in their bedroom or something. Maybe Philip found some way out of a photo being taken.

 

I suspect Martha's parents knew that the relationship between Martha and "Clark" was supposed to be secret, due to Clark's job. (Otherwise, I think the parents want to know why they didn't live together - and the tiny ceremony would probably seem strange to them, too, because you know Martha would have been dreaming of a fairy tale wedding since she was a little girl.)

 

I could see Philip (or Martha) explaining to them that no photos can be taken.

 

I've never taken a lie detector test, but there's a reason they're not allowed as evidence in court - they're notoriously unreliable, and I'm pretty sure that was known in the 80s.  It just measures changes in heartbeat, breathing, etc.  If Martha was a nervous wreck altogether about taking the polygraph, it would be very difficult for them to get anything other than an inconclusive result.  And although she has at times seemed cool under pressure, I've always thought she was really nervous and stressed about not just the spying but also about basically everything in her life.  She's just a nervous Nelly (apologies to any Nellys out there).  It's possible that her pulse, etc. would be all over the place even on the "What's your name?" questions, and so her lies wouldn't be noticeably different from her truths.  

 

Polygraphs are definitely unreliable (and they're not even scientific in nature, if you ask me). But the FBI is all about polygraphs - and probably was even more so back in the '80s.

 

I think their reasoning is that a) if someone is calm enough to "pass" a polygraph, they're probably innocent of the wrongdoing in question, so that can help eliminate the suspects who are most likely innocent, and b) rulebreaking will be discouraged if people know they could be subjected to a polygraph. This isn't to say I agree with that reasoning.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Blakeston

[Umbelina]

I think spies ARE ruthless, or at least covert deep cover spies at Philip and Elizabeth's level.  I honestly don't think it has anything to do with which country they are spying for.  It's just part of who they are trained to be, and life experiences that the rest of us can try to imagine, but not quite put ourselves into their heads.   They lie, they kill, they carry out orders, they use many people to carry things out, those "agents they run" and really can't allow themselves to care about too much, because if push comes to shove, any of them are expendable.

 

We've seen it a few times here.  The FBI coldly not giving a damn if Nina dies, and Stan's shock at facing the reality of the world he operate in finally got through to him. 

 

Elizabeth is still in that "true believer" stage that I don't think is uncommon to some spies, regardless of whom they spy for.  Philip is representing the more jaded spy, who is beginning to realize, if he hasn't from the beginning, that something is wrong with the ruthlessness required of him, to have doubts about his job, and ideology in general.  Anyone's.  That's why Gabe is reeling him in with the "you have a kid and he's in Afghanistan." stuff, trying to get him back to hating the USA, but I think that ship has sailed. 

 

I see Philip as a spy who gets that it's all bullshit, but the thing is, if Philip and Elizabeth were doing the same thing, FOR the USA, IN Russia?  I still think Philip would be the skeptic, the realist, and the one questioning the (in that case) good old USA having him seduce a 15 year old, etc.  Elizabeth would be the ride or die "Go USA!" spy, she's just built that way. 

 

In a way, Stan and Philip are (just a bit) on the same wavelength right now.  Both awakening fully to exactly what their countries are really about.  Both are questioning the whole "for the greater good" ruthlessness of their agencies/governments.  It's not about being traitors so much as it is about having the scales drop from their eyes and taking a hard look at exactly what they are doing, and why.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Umbelina

[crgirl412]

 

So, what kind of dog do you all think Snuffy is? I can see Aderholt with something small, shaggy and cuddly under his arm.

Maybe Snuffy the dog is the same color as Mr. Snuffleupagus!

[sistermagpie]

Maybe Snuffy the dog is the same color as Mr. Snuffleupagus!

 

 

When I saw the picture of Shuffleupagus I thought it was going to be a reference to Martha's mysterious husband. :-)

[SlackerInc]

Rather than use a particularly political example, when the USA beat the Soviet Union in the winter Olympics in hockey?  It was a BIG deal.  I was a kid (younger than Paige) at the time, but everyone watched that.  It was a very, very big deal.   

 

Not everyone!  It's funny you mention that: I started a thread last month on another board about how despite my distinctly remembering that Lake Placid Olympics (particularly speedskating star Eric Heiden and his sister Beth), and my dad being a hockey player, I was completely unaware of that "Miracle on Ice" until years later (I eventually saw the movie starring Kurt Russell).

[Roseanna]

On ‎23‎.‎3‎.‎2015 at 7:06 AM, RedheadZombie said:

This is such a brilliant point.  Elizabeth is fighting and killing for the country she was born and raised in.  She is doing this for everyone she has ever known and loved.  If Paige starting working for the KGB, she will be fighting and betraying the only country she's ever known.  She's fighting against her way of life, and the lives of everyone she's ever cared about.  And the country she would be working for, is America's #1 enemy, and she would have been exposed to anti-Soviet sentiment from school and society in general.

There is much truth in this, but not quite.

Paige isn't a person who thinks "right or wrong, my country" (as the British saying goes), still less "my country, never  wrong" (like Elizabeth). She is an idealist and she wants her country to do the right thing (even regardless of consequences as shown her demontrations). And because of Elizabeth's story about Gregory, now she has now discovered the crimes and mistakes her country has done in the past and she is shocked. 

On that basis, I think that Paige could become a Radical, f.ex. as a reaction to the police's violence. Ultimately, she could also be recruited f.ex. by Hans to help ANC (or earlier by Lucia to oppose contras). 

But KGB? I don't think so. Not because Russia is America's  #1 enemy, as it was that also after the WW2 and as we know there were Americans willing to give the atomic secrets to the Soviets, but because nobody could idealize the Soviet system in the 80ies.