Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[skiddy]

I thought Tywin had given the short sword to Jaime actually..and kept the long one for himself. It would make sense: the long sword would be a two-hand sword..

On Tywin knowing about the twincest: I think that was pretty clear from last season's great scene with Diana Rigg.

I also look forward to LF/Lysa interaction. What will happen at the Eyrie (or on the way there?) is most difficult to predict; so are LF's intentions.

[skiddy]

Chris Ashe> I don't see Stannis and Danny coming head-to-head anytime soon, if ever:

- Stannis is on his way to the Wall and I suspect his storyline will end there. The character had his moment of glory, he is quickly becoming a prop in Melissandre's storyline, he is now going to fight a force that is so big it can't be defeated this season already..all signs point to Stannis being terminated by the end of this season.

- Danny's stroll in Essos is taking forever and she might not make it to Westeros before season 12 anyway.

[UnForgiven]

The following posts contains nothing that involves the show, and if I could figure out how to send a private message here this wouldn't even be here, but alas, I really can't.

Suggestion regarding safety of this thread, and how to keep unwanted spoilers out, which is unfortunately dependent on the forum software bendiness.

Essentially, does the forum allow for heavy moderation, aka, having moderators check each post before it is published? And would it be possible to allow some posters (those previously verified) to skip said moderation queue?

If you set the unsullied thread with such limitations it would allow few bookwalkers (additional moderators for this new subforum, I'm willing to do this, even if the time I can spend on it is bit limited) to check up on posts of 'new posters' to verify that they do not contain spoilers, yes, it would slow down things, but regular posters would experience no problems/slowness compared to the current system? And new posters could still join up, they'd just be screened for validity over their first few posts. (Won't make it impossible for someone to spoil you, but it'd take real effort after these measures, casual and ilinformed people would get snipped out before anyone sees anything)

[stillshimpy]

Thank you so much, David, that looks great and we're really grateful that you managed to find a solution for us that was workable for everyone  Sincerely, thank you and thanks to your staff here too.  Sorry we come with the screaming hordes and all that.  I'm sorry we're sometimes part of the screaming hordes. 

Now, I just assumed that the "Doom of  Valeria" was a plague, not a a volcanic eruption.  I thought the erupting Volcanoes actually signified what produced the actual Dragons.  I guess I also assumed that "the blood of old Valeria had something to do with her Genetic Teflon schtick.  That "Blood of Old Valeria" meant being tied to those who controlled and conquered with dragons. 

Great catch on Tile Face Lady painting that guy with symbols to protect him against "The Doom" . I still think it might have been a plague vs volcanic eruptions, although I admit neither actually makes a ton of sense, come to think of it.  It is was a volcanic eruption that destroyed Valeria, that would explain why there was no more Valerian steel (as someone who takes Valerian root to help me sleep, it always cracks me up when Valerian Steel is mentioned, it just seems so contradictory).  It wouldn't really explain the "sail too close to the doom" magical protection symbols though.  Unless they believe that's what keeps the Volcanoes from erupting when sailors pass.  What I mainly remember about that scene is she was getting that red paint/dye/ink out of a skull.  Really startling stuff. 

That was also one of the times the show went a little to "It's fantasy!" on my butt, because that scene was random and weird and seemed to serve no long-term purpose.  I guess Dany's story always interests me less, because she seems so safe and guaranteed to remain so.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, she's far less horrifying a character than many, but it does mean that most of the things that go on n that story seem a foregone conclusion to me.  "Yes, they'll conquer." "Yes, she'll free the slaves."  "Yes, she'll eventually actually start making her way to King's Landing.  

So it's harder for me to invest in that story.  I'm usually sort of impatient for it to get back to the other action.  

Anyone want to take bets on how many times Dany will talk about: "You don't want to lose to a girl" or start raving about her birthright and taking it by force, with blood, fire, the occasional mini-mart franchise? 

That was really my fear when I saw the gruesome Signposts up ahead for the Crucifixion Zone "Oh Shit, is it going to be the blue lip wizards in action again?" because that means a lot of shrieking about "My dragons!" 

[Snowblack]

The Fool and Sansa sequence, for me, felt like it put her on the path towards becoming something more than a victim. Perhaps we see her start playing the game now. Everyone would surely underestimate her to an extreme degree, leaving ample opportunity to strike one for the good guys.

I love the idea that her encounter with Ser Dontos empowers Sansa rather than boding ill for the future.  I guess it shows just how twisted this show is that it hadn't occurred to me that the necklace could symbolize something positive.

[DirewolfPup]

When was this volcano in Valeriya point mentioned? I don't seem to recall this at all.

[stillshimpy]

When was this volcano in Valeriya point mentioned? I don't seem to recall this at all.

It's on the sword thing, rotating wheel-of-death-and-carvings in the beginning of the credits, apparently.  I've never actually noticed it but that's also because I'm always looking for what animal is eating/killing/conquering/snuggling (hey I can dream) the other sigil animal. 

[ChocButterfly]

I didn't think the necklace meant anything, but you guys are insisting so much in it, that you may be right.

I thought Tywin had given the short sword to Jaime actually..and kept the long one for himself. It would make sense: the long sword would be a two-hand sword.

That's what I thought. No way Twyin is going to give a Valeryan Steel sword to Tyrion! By the way, if Twyin suddenly dies, Tyrion would be the de facto heir, wether Twyin likes it or not, cuz I don't think he has named any other heir. By law, everything will go to Tyrion, so if Twyin doesn't want that happening he'll better name an heir soon!

Stannis is on his way to the Wall and I suspect his storyline will end there. The character had his moment of glory, he is quickly becoming a prop in Melissandre's storyline, he is now going to fight a force that is so big it can't be defeated this season already..all signs point to Stannis being terminated by the end of this season.

 

Yeah, but I thought Stannis wouldn't survive the second season and he's still alive, and he seems to be "important". I quote important cuz I still have no idea what's his place in this story, he could die tomorrow and I wouldn't notice. And what the hell is he going to do at the Wall, will he be fighting with the WW or the Wildings?? Does he even know why he's going or is he just doing whatever Melissandre tells him? Maybe that's Stannis place in the story, he'll be the one to fight the WW? But I doubt it, I don't see any of "The Chosen" qualities in him. If anyone is gong to defeat the WW, it'll be Dany, because of Dragons!

Edited April 10, 2014 by ChocButterfly

[AlphaLine]

Yeah, but I thought Stannis wouldn't survive the second season and he's still alive, and he seems to be "important". I quote important cuz I still have no idea what's his place in this story, he could die tomorrow and I wouldn't notice. And what the hell is he going to do at the Wall, will he be fighting with the WW or the Wildings?? Does he even know why he's going or is he just doing whatever Melissandre tells him? Maybe that's Stannis place in the story, he'll be the one to fight the WW? But I doubt it, I don't see any of "The Chosen" qualities in him. If anyone is gong to defeat the WW, it'll be Dany, because of Dragons!

Yup exactly. I personally think Stannis' destiny is getting burned by Melisandre at some point. Possibly this season.

( Hello? She needs 'King's blood' to do her stuff. Who's the most convenient king? Just so obvious.. )

He had some good scenes in season 2 and with his daughter but at this point he just seems like a secondary character in Melisandre's storyline. His army is already fully converted to the Lord of Light ( seems like ) , and really Melisandre doesn't need him for anything other than being a figurehead 'King', which isn't a problem since he already follows her commands to the letter anyway. Now Sir Davos- I really like the guy, but he really needs to ditch team Lord of Light and do his own thing - this Stannis is not the same man he knew once, and obviously his son's future is not a concern any more . I wouldn't be surprised if he turns up in Dany-Land, much like how Sir Barristan did.

Edited April 10, 2014 by AlphaLine

[izabella]

Bran is a Warg, and both Daenerys and Bran have told someone that their dreams come true.

Constantinople, do you think Dany might be a Warg, or have some similar Warg-like powers?  I recall when she was chained up with her dragons in Qarth, that she somehow used her mind to get the dragons to break their chains.  Maybe she hasn't yet learned how to do that whenever she wants so as to control their actions a bit more. 

Bran is still learning how to do that with Summer, so maybe Dany still needs to understand her dragon-powers better.

Edited April 10, 2014 by izabella

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Admittedly dragons are unusual, but so is sitting in the middle of a bonfire all night untouched. But that part of the story never seems to be discussed by anyone. I'd think the story of Daenerys the Unburnt, even without the dragons would spread like...well like wildfire.

After the season 1 finale I was expecting her story to spread on a religious level, that she rose from the ashes, etc and have all sorts of people following her thinking she was a god. I suppose her being called "Mhysa" after liberating the slaves approaches that, but yeah, I would have thought there'd be more emphasis on SHE FREAKING DIDN'T BURN IN THE FIRE and that her Dothrakis would evangelize the crap out of that event.

One thing that caught my attention on rewatching the latest ep was that during the scene where Jaime, the other King's Guard and Joffrey are discussing security at the wedding, Jaime says something about so n so being stationed near the " ... primary entertainment". The way he says that seems slightly mysterious, almost like he didn't want to state specifically what the "primary entertainment" was. When he asks Joffrey if he's even listening (or something like that) Joffrey says yes yes, near "the thing" - again purposely vague. So I am intrigued as hell as to WHAT IS THE PRIMARY ENTERTAINMENT??? The fact that Joffrey was probably behind the planning of it has me really worried. I am picturing like, a pit with a lion in it, with captive Northmen being fed to it... eep.

[WhiteStumbler]

Ser Jaime has long known that Lannisters don't shit gold, he is now keen to determine if they can wipe with it.

Oh my! Brilliant! Thanks for that! Westeros: A Blood and Magic Odyssey with Maester Jamie Lannister would make a great spinoff.

Thanks for the comments from everyone re: Doom of Valeriya. The link to the volcanoes from the Flying Astrolabe in the opening credits makes some sense (volcanoes - fire, dragons - fire), but doesn't explain why magical / cartographic "protection" would be necessary when traveling past it. Probably not A Thing, but who can tell? No detail is actually unimportant (like the sulky jerk who ends up killing Ld. Comm. Mormont).

RE: Cersei's reluctance to marry Loras. Her cry of "father, don't do this to me again!" said it all for me. She was married off for political expediency once, and has no interest in playing that particular game again. That moment was another time where a character edged from 'despicable' to 'poor thing!' for me.

skiddy: I thought Tywin had given the short sword to Jaime actually..and kept the long one for himself. It would make sense: the long sword would be a two-hand sword.

I think a sword that is a bit shorter than a long, two-handed sword is referred to as a (wait for it...)

Bastard sword! Give it to ""King" Joffrey!!

Oh, and Stannis' story is not over, it is just getting started! He IS the Rightful King, is a total badass, and hates people I hate (Joffrey, Balon) with a deep, burning (ha!) passion. He is the chosen of the Lord of Light, and I will hear nothing contradictory on the subject.

Interestingly, when Mel met Rev. Dontos and Dondarrion in the Brotherhood Cave and she seemed so taken aback at the fact that Dondarrion had been resurrected so many times, and I thought 'what if Ser Berrick is the ACTUAL chosen of the LoL, and Mel got her wires crossed somehow?'

[abcfsk]

Stannis entertains me more than most characters, as does Melisandre, in her way, so I hope they keep their ship afloat. As to what they\ll do in the north, maybe just camp at the wall? I don't think there's much action there at this point since the 'crows' are more concerned with what to do with Jon Snow than fighting. Stannis certainly does not feel like the Chosen type of character who will ultimately deal a deciding blow in a fantasy story like this, though, but I admit to not having a clue where his and all other religion's end games are headed in this tale, so who knows. 

I like Dany, although the story is clearly stalling, because it lets us see a different setting entirely and sometimes gives us little hints about Westeros and clues about its players from a different perspective. But I do think, if she stays over there, she should soon be presented with some other challenge than 'can you crush these feeble foes' - because she clearly can at this point. A different sort of obstacle must present itself surely.

[RadiantAerynSun]

If Dany can warg her dragons, we haven't seen the usual signs of it that Bran and Orell did (eyes turning white)

 

Thanks for the comments from everyone re: Doom of Valeriya. The link to the volcanoes from the Flying Astrolabe in the opening credits makes some sense (volcanoes - fire, dragons - fire), but doesn't explain why magical / cartographic "protection" would be necessary when traveling past it. Probably not A Thing, but who can tell? No detail is actually unimportant (like the sulky jerk who ends up killing Ld. Comm. Mormont).

Might not actually do anything to protect them, I assumed it was more of a religious/superstitious thing, like if something disasterous happened there it might keep superstitious natives calm by having a charm to ward off the bad stuff.

[stillshimpy]

She didn't use her mind, at least as far as we know, she looked past Blue Lips Wizard from the House of UnDying to her black dragon (who was the size of smallish Calico cat at the time) and did the "Dracarus" thing which apparently means, "Burn this, yo."  and he did.  

 

 

Yup exactly. I personally think Stannis' destiny is getting burned by Melisandre at some point. Possibly this season.

( Hello? She needs 'King's blood' to do her stuff. Who's the most convenient king? Just so obvious.. )

He had some good scenes in season 2 and with his daughter but at this point he just seems like a secondary character in Melisandre's storyline.

He does seem to be a bit-player in his own quest for the Throne, doesn't he?  Plus, he's got nothing I can personally invest in, or any kind of emotional inner-world that they are able to convey in any compelling manner.  I think Jon Snow is unspeakably dull as a character, but I will give the actor playing him his due: He conveys that Jon Snow never has an emotionally comfortable moment.  This is a person in constant emotional turmoil and whereas the depth of his pain feels a bit "Welcome to Dawson's Creek" to me, I've no doubt it exists.  

Just outlining that because he may not be my favorite character, but he registers as a human being with all that makes up that emotional spectrum.  Stannis is just like an overly strict Detention Hall Monitor.  He seems sort of vaguely fond of his daughter, but my god, with friends like Stannis, you'd be blessed to have enemies instead, because Daavos is someone who was his right hand man and I can't even start to count the shit Stannis has done to him without even a flicker of emotional turmoil or hesitation.  

Yes, people like that exist.  People who are just sort of flatliners.  Typically they don't make for compelling centers for dramatic action.  We didn't see him chop off Daavos fingers, but I'm willing to hang my butt over the cliff and speculate: He probably didn't care when he did it.  When he learned Daavos was alive, despite his seeming death his "You're alive." had all the emotional resonance of a burned out Glade-Plug-in.  The ghost of whatever makes it worthwhile is just baked on and interchangeable with plastic.  

I get the whole "Lobster" deal.  He's a cold water fish and hard-shelled.  Well, bully for him.  Lord, he's uninteresting, but it's worse than that, I don't actually understand why he wants anything at all and that's a character-development-sin.  "Because it's in the rule book of life that he should be King."  So have him played by a textbook, it would be as gripping for this particular viewer.  

Tywin is the same kind of emotionally contained and inaccessible character, but I truly feel like I understand a lot about him.  I might not, but I feel like I do.  I feel as if there are things there to perceive.  That stuff about still waters, as the cliche goes, seems to hold true.  Stannis has the emotional depth of a puddle.  A puddle of bland and unfeeling, while we're at it.

However, I will shout with damned glee if we spend hours with Stannis and none at all with Ramsey, who needs a hobby other than carving away on humans. I would be pleased as punch if when we inevitably roll up to the Dreadfort -- since that damned thing is in the credits, we're going there this season, I guess -- and instead of seeing him, a Monty Python style cartoon dropped from the sky with a banner reading "And then Winter Came and they ate Ramsay and his minstrels."  

Oh hey, well, at least I have something for the Thenns to do in the story, after all. 

ETA: As for why Cersei objects to being married off to Loras, why wouldn't she object to that?  Even though it is common in that world for women to be treated as things and bartered away like they have no voice, will, or again, individual internal world, she does actually possess all of those things.  Gilded cages don't help with the entire concept of someone else arranging you in life like a settee.  I think it would be particularly painful when Cersei really wants her father to see her as "having something to contribute".  She didn't mean as livestock to be traded. 

Edited April 10, 2014 by stillshimpy

[WhiteStumbler]

I will concede that S3 Stannis wasn't very, well I was going to say 'dynamic', but he rarely is particularly dynamic, so... active?

Then again, S2 Dany sucked dragon eggs for me (until the very last episode), and Tyrion has had some long stretched of being uninteresting (Lady Olenna nailed him with 'you can imagine my disapointment at finding nothing but a browbeaten bookkeeper'). I think Stannis is compelling. I love watching him wrestle with expediency (magic Smoke Babys, blood leeches) and where his Jiminy Cricket conscience Ser Daavos would lead him. I went totally on-board Team Stannis at the Battle of Blackwater, loved his scene when he was choking the life out of Mel whispering 'where is your god now?', saw his physical discomfort in the presence of his wife and their "sons", all of it. I just think he is one of the most interesting of the sort of 'second-tier' characters on the show, but A Show has a way of having second-tier characters become vitally important, and what could be more consequential to the 7K than events at the Wall?

[abcfsk]

And Stannis has had several emotional moments - alone with Melisandre he's frequently lashed out at her, conflicted, and down in the basement with Davos there were tears in his eyes as they had their moment. That was a pretty intense scene for me. He's clearly not cold to all this, just principled, truly acting by the books, which is a pretty interesting contrast to many in this world - but he also cleary has to fight with himself to keep up this way of acting that he feels is right. Add to that Melisandre who did start out as a one-dimensional witch but has since stumbled and been confused , if still mostly 'mysterious', and we have, with Davos and all his obstacles, one of the more fascinating teams in the tale.

Edited April 10, 2014 by abcfsk

[RadiantAerynSun]

I like Stannis precisely because he is so "different" than most characters you see as protagonists. (Although I don't think he is "end game" either, but I do find him interesting for his different-ness).

[stillshimpy]

Fair enough, different people like different kinds of characters, obviously.  I'm with you on all of the characters having suffered through long stretches of "My God, this is sort of labored and feels a little pointless."  It might be purposeful to offset the action. 

Stannis just seems like one of those characters that needs the page vs. the screen to flesh him out.  It seems so much of this man is internal. I don't claim to like, understand or have any interest in him, but I also think that he's the story's born rule follower after Ned lost his Head.  I think he serves a function within the story.  This is not a story that rewards that sort of "by the guidebook" gameplay.  

I will grant you, he has shown anger, so he isn't completely without emotion.  

Yeah, sorry guys, but he pretty much puts me to sleep.  I'm glad he works for other people.  

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: The Iron Throne is his by right; all those who deny that are his foes. You will bend the knee or be destroyed! ;-)

Come on, he even likes dogs! And horses! Not as fond of cats, though.

[stillshimpy]

stillshimpy: The Iron Throne is his by right; all those who deny that are his foes. You will bend the knee or be destroyed! ;-)

Now about this, here's something that goes to the heart of why I just don't like the dude.  He has no loyalty that I can perceive.  The only reason that Stannis has all that "Mine by right!" belief in the Iron Throne, has to do with the fact that Ned Stark sent out letters as Robert lay dying, whacked out on "Milk of the Puppy" , dying oblivious to the fact that he had left no legitimate heir.  

Stannis only knows he has a claim to the Throne because of Ned.  All this, "Mine by right!" No, your brother won the Throne, Stannis and then was tricked out of leaving an heir to the throne by the Lannisters.  His "rights" are really related to their deception of Robert.  This was never something that seemed to bother Stannis or Renly.  Now I know Robert said he didn't love either of them, and frankly, I'm not sure I blame him.  Although apparently Stannis fought in the Rebellion so he helped his more charismatic brother win the Throne.  

It's just we've seen him have Renly murdered in a fairly cowardly manner.  Although there is little glory to be had in going to war with ones own brother, I'm sure, it really did seem like proof of why Robert was less than fond of the guy.  At least Renly was willing to listen to Catelyn (for all the good it did either of them) about the Starks and Baratheons having always been allies.  Stannis really, really doesn't care about that kind of -- I don't know how to put it -- warm and fuzzy? -- sort of connection.  He didn't have a moment's hesitation about dropping a leech onto the grill with the words "The Usurper, Robb Stark" ...dude, the only and I do mean only reason Stannis knows he has a claim to the Throne was because of Ned Stark and he was murdered for his trouble. 

But no olive branches to Robb, no "Let us join forces to stop the Lannisters once and for all.  They have wronged both of our families gravely." Nope.  Just "Die, you mutha throne stealer, die.  Magic rites and sneers.  Hope your head is all 'splodey.  Suck it." 

I think that's why Stannis's adherence to the rules just pisses me off.  There's no sense of right, or fairness, rules of decency, or nobility in his adherence to those rules, his adherence? Dude, he employed black magic to murder his own brother and the oldest legitimate son of the man he owes a debt to.   His definition of the rules and following them is highly flexible, whether or not he admits it to himself.  He only seems to give a convenient form of lip service to the concept of following the rules. 

Also, being willing to murder Gendry for still more magic?  Seriously, if Stannis isn't bewitched, he just sucks in my eyes. 

Edited April 10, 2014 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

Ha!! Maybe.  He'll tell them some of Nan's stories and put them all to sleep for good.  Although those stories were sort of hair raising, they'd be boring as hell to the White Walkers.  "Yes, yes, we know.  Pale spiders the size of dogs, we have them right here."  

Now here's one of the areas that i just can't figure out.  Did Stannis want Daavos to let Gendry go?  He knew all about Daavos's objections.  He knew Daavos was running around free and hates Melisandre.  So was he sort of hoping Daavos would let Gendry go?  That's what I wondered.  Until Stannis didn't hesitate in ordering Daavos killed.  In which case, he was willing to use Daavos pretty harshly. 

[abcfsk]

I think he was confliced about it and saw Davos' point of view, maybe not fully conciously letting him do his thing as long as he didn't have to take part in it. Guess we'll see what's done with Sir D now. 

[WhiteStumbler]

Now about this, here's something that goes to the heart of why I just don't like the dude.  He has no loyalty that I can perceive. 

His loyalty is to The Rules and The Law (and his Book of Grammar), not to any individuals or Houses. He has a ridiculously B&W view of this world, and he has a lawyers mind for what The Rules mean ('hmmm... I don't see anywhere that it is against The Rules to kill one's own brother if one uses a magic Smoke Baby: Gotcha, Renly!!) that clearly twist in the wind of expediency.

His "rights" are really related to (the Lannister) deception of Robert.

Absolutely true to the letter of the law. The Lannister's violated the rules with their deception, and need to be removed.

Although apparently Stannis fought in the Rebellion so he helped his more charismatic brother win the Throne.   

He held Storms End and was reduced to eating rats, but (apparently) never considered surrender, while the Tyrell leader 'laid siege to the banquet table in the command tent'. Stannis the Mannis!

But no olive branches to Robb, no "Let us join forces to stop the Lannisters once and for all.  They have wronged both of our families gravely." Nope.  Just "Die, you mutha throne stealer, die.  Magic rites and sneers.  Hope your head is all 'splodey.  Suck it."

I don't recall that any envoy from Robb was ever sent to Stanis, but his response would have been 'bend the knee to me (as your father did to Robert), help me destroy my enemies, and I won't destroy you. I will be having the tips of your fingers, though.'

 

I think that's why Stannis's adherence to the rules just pisses me off.  There's no sense of right, or fairness, rules of decency, or nobility in his adherence to those rules...

In a world with savagery and chaos at the doorstep, what is "right" or "fair" or "noble" are both hard to ascertain (see Jaime) and liable to get you and your family destroyed. It is far easier to look to The Rules and act accordingly, exploiting any loopholes you might find. I am certainly not on Team Stannis because he is perfect. Stannis is fearless, a charismatic war leader, and ruthless. Stannis is also pedantic, a bore, and under the influence of a Red Witch. BUT who else is going to rule Westeros? Stannis is the best of a bad lot. He also has the loyalty of the Onion Knight, who I just love to pieces (so Daavos is probably dead soon).

When the winds of chaos are savaging the kingdom, I will raise my banner with King Stannis, Rightful King of the Andals and the First Men.

 

Also, being willing to murder Gendry for still more magic?  Seriously, if Stannis isn't bewitched, he just sucks in my eyes.

Yeah, well, there is that. Pretty inexcusable. But hey, every potato has a spot or two! ;-)

If there is another contender for the Iron Throne with a legitimate claim who is better, I would love to hear who that is. Ultimately, I want Good King Hodor, but until then...

[stillshimpy]

If there is another contender for the Iron Throne with a legitimate claim who is better, I would love to hear who that is. Ultimately, I want Good King Hodor, but until then.

Dany? 

[90PercentGravity]

Well, Dany has a vagina, which I believe automatically makes her ineligible by birthright.

Maybe Jon Snow, if the spec about him being the child of whoever it was people were specing about is true (Rheagar?). Though, is anyone alive who would know? The old blind guy maybe? Maester Amon, I think. Maybe Benjen would know that if he ever showed back up.

[WhiteStumbler]

You know, I always assumed that Dany was eligible to rule as queen, but have we heard about any Targaryen queens in the past? Interesting...

I am more than half convinced that Dany is going to decide to stay east of the Narrow Sea and be content to rule an empire of Freed Slave Cities, or that Westeros will be overrun with WWs and everyone will hightail it over there (ETA "to Essos"), but who knows? In the meantime someone's ass has to keep that uncomfortable hunk of metal warm, and I vote for Stannis. Neener neener.

Edited April 10, 2014 by WhiteStumbler

[stillshimpy]

God, I forget about Benjen, but then so does the show.  Gods know they aren't averse to recasting a role, so it can't be solely about actor availability.  It's probably going to turn out that the damned Thenns ate him.  That was probably his arm on the fire.  

Anyway, I've never subscribed to the many and varied theories on who Jon Snow might be.  I think he's Ned's son, plain and simple.  However, since Ned assured him "You may not have my name, but you have my blood" (which is why I think Jon is his son, oddly enough) then the belief is that Jon is Lyanna Stark's son with Rhaegar Targaryen...who was married to the poor split-apart Martell so he'd be no more legitimate than Gendry would.  

Also, Jojen Reed, if we can believe anything out of his elfin face, said that he was able to see the battle his father and Ned fought together while in his dream world.  So presumably Bran and Jojen can time-travel in the Netherworld.  Not that that serves as proof of anything to anyone, but that may be how the story approaches it.  

 

 

I am more than half convinced that Dany is going to decide to stay east of the Narrow Sea and be content to rule an empire of Freed Slave Cities, or that Westeros will be overrun with WWs and everyone will hightail it over there (ETA "to Essos"), but who knows?

Hehe, but haven't you heard? She'll take what is hers with Blood and Fire and not be denied her birthright! She is Daenarys Targaryen and she is the MOTHER OF..." stop me if you've heard this one already....

Fine White Stumbler, but Stannis has abandoned his quest for the the Throne and is heading for the Wall to get it on with the White Walkers.  Then afterwards perhaps he can head back to King's Landing and be Good King Actuary with Occasional Blood Magic.  

Good King Dullard was a Dull Old Soul

and Pedantic soul was he, 

He called for his rule book

and he called for his hit list

and he called for his leeches three

every rule he could break 

The Iron Throne to Take 

Was his way of making merry

Neener back atcha ;-) 

Edited April 10, 2014 by stillshimpy

[hobbers]

It's been a while but I thought I'd throw my two pence in with regards to some topics mentioned:

RE: Getting Sansa out of KL. Someone suggested Brienne, Shae and NecklaceFool team up. What a rag-tag bunch of no hopers! We have Brienne who will be lucky to last the next episode because she is being noble and dutiful in King's Landing! A cardinal sin! Then we have Shae, who when smuggling Sansa out in the dead of night will probably spontaneously shout "I AM SHAE THE FUNNY WHORE!" and get them all caught. And then we have our bumbling drunk. A great team.

RE: Primary Entertainment. What sort of madness does Joffrey have in store for us? The worst thing I can imagine is that someone has found Gendry, knows him to be Robert's bastard and he is going to get a Clegane 'bisection' as somebody so beautifully put it above.

RE: Stannis. This is a difficult one for me. He was talked about a lot in season 1, resulting in me really looking forward to him. And he was a bit shit. I like the dynamic he and Davos (Daavos?) have together and enjoyed his scenes with his daughter and wife last season, but overall he just needs to get out more. They say no man is an island but for s03 two men and a red witch certainly were one. Stannis, Davos and Melisandre simply need to interact with different sets of characters from the show, which is why I pray (but do not expect) Stannis to get to the wall early. Some of his best stuff came when he crossed plots with Renly.

[ChocButterfly]

Ah, people keep saying how Stannis loves his daughter, and yet he lets his wife basically keep her like a prisoner and barely sees her. When it comes to Stannis, I have no patience, for all the reasons that Shimpy mentioned before. He's just a hypocrite, his "rules" only work when it fits him and he's an idiot for blindly doing what Melissandre tells him without even trying to find out anything. The only thing that could redeem him is if we find out that he's in some sort of spell induce by Mel.

[AlphaLine]

Ah, people keep saying how Stannis loves his daughter, and yet he lets his wife basically keep her like a prisoner and barely sees her. When it comes to Stannis, I have no patience, for all the reasons that Shimpy mentioned before. He's just a hypocrite, his "rules" only work when it fits him and he's an idiot for blindly doing what Melissandre tells him without even trying to find out anything. The only thing that could redeem him is if we find out that he's in some sort of spell induce by Mel.

Yes! Exactly.

Whenever Melisandre is in the room with him he is always 'Evil Stannis' ( with the evil music playing in background ). It would be like King Theoden and Grima Wormtongue.

Re: Sansa escaping. Okay let's suppose Brienne/Shae/Drunk get her out of KL. So what's she supposed to do or go to? Winterfell burned, dead family, crazy aunt at the Eyrie, imprisoned uncle. No good choices really, unless Brienne could take her to Tarth or something ( plausible but can't happen ). Let's be honest Sansa is the safest right where she is. She already has a good husband ( I would say near perfect, atleast miles ahead the previous choices gay-Loras, Littlefinger the pimp and Joffrey ), and her position is not good but nowhere as bad as Bran, Arya, etc.

Honestly the best thing for her at this point would be to send her to school. She needs to gain about 50 IQ points before even starting to realize what is going on the game of thrones ( just check out last seasons dialogues - 'Did your mother teach you?' 'Will my family come to my wedding' facepalm ) See I always thought part of the reason Starks are dumb and naive ( except Arya ) is because their parents coddled them and didn't send them to school. Homeschooling doesn't work, folks.

[MickleThePickle]

Was just watching the first season when Tyrion is visiting the wall. Benjen and The Lord Commander say there are less than 1,000 men of the Nights Watch. Not sure how many died north of the wall since then. Stannis is coming, but his army was torn up at the siege of KL. With 100,000 Wildlings and an army of wights and white walkers coming, it doesn't look good. Bran better hope he can warg in to an atomic bomb. Either that or man kind better forge an alliance and start chipping away on dragon glass. I'm desperately hoping to see some escalation of events here this season.

Someone also mentions that the days are growing shorter and that this will be a long winter. Since then, I don't recall seeing any signs that summer is changing to winter (other than some stray dire wolves). Maybe winter is still a ways away and the white walkers won't try to come down until Westeros is covered with snow?

Meanwhile, a bunch of fat cats are down south in KL preparing to drink cartloads of wedding wine and throwing priceless necklaces off balconies. What is it going to take to wake them up to the realities of the whole winter situation?

[DirewolfPup]

I don't recall seeing a single snow flake fall south of the Wall except when Daenerys was walking around the throne room in King's Landing as part of her House of the Undying dream sequence. -Constantinople

When Jon, Yggritte & Co climbed the wall and looked south, there was some snow on the ground. It thinned out to grass really quickly. Come to think of it, how is that possible? Does that make the wall tall enough to affect weather patterns? The south side of the wall would have a hard time staying icy if it got sunshine all day. The wall must be dozens if not hundreds of meters thick, so it might be a receding glacier situation where they have to rebuild in the winter.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Let's see how much Stannis's fire god loves him.

We'll light two raging bonfires, Daenerys walks into one and Stannis into the other.  Whoever's still alive the next day gets the Iron Throne.

OMG hey you may be on to something. We already saw a "trial by combat" for the the LoL, I wonder if something similar MIGHT really happen in the future tht dany wins by virtue of being fireproof. Hmm.

[stillshimpy]

I've always thought that the Wall must be a magical structure though.  Perhaps it's not, but it's not possible by anything we understand, or by what passes for technology that we've seen within the story.  There seem to be different forces at play in this particular world so the rules of our reality and theirs aren't exactly the same.  

So I accept that, but I've always wondered how the characters within the story think that wall got there.  I've heard the men of the Wall talking about how they built this 700 foot wall to keep the things of the North on the other side of it.  It was just sort of presented as a story fact though, "We built this 700 foot wall, however many hundreds or thousands of years ago..."  Huh.  Well, how?  How'd you do that?  World's weirdest bucket brigade? It's an engineering impossibility so who knows. 

As for their weather patterns, yeah, that's not technically possible either.  Nan talked about a winter that lasted 20 years and talked about King's freezing to death on their thrones, etc.  Well, no one survives that.  You could dry fruits and vegetables for twenty years leading up to that and ....you know skip all that.  It's one of the areas where it becomes kind of obvious "We're in the Fantasy genre, folks! Winters last for decades in the worst case scenario and recessive genes apparently don't really exist for Baratheons.  Sure, why not? Just go with it." 

That's just one of the battle cries of the genre, I think.  Does it make a ton of sense?  Well, no.  Neither do dead armies walking, or men coming back from the dead multiple times, to name a few.  Some of this is sort of "the gods decreed in that world, and I just go with it in this one" stuff. 

Edited April 11, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Pallas]

I agree, shimpy, that the Wall must be a magical structure.  Absolutely no social compact we've seen on Westeros seems cohesive enough, never mind skilled enough, to pull it off.  And the Wall also seems to maintain itself: I don't recall seeing or hearing about parties of Rangers, say, dispatched on a regular basis to maintain it, as one must with any wall or fence, anywhere else in the universe. What cowboys really do all day.

Speaking of cowboys: it depends on what the showrunners were going for, but the behavior of Dany's alpha dragon wasn't as alarming to me as it was to Jorah.  Food aggression is a given among many animals, including pet pups and pussy cats, and flight animals as well as predators.  Black Dragon gave Dany exactly the kind of reflexive, sharp but non-violent warning a horse among other horses will give even its owner, over a pile of hay.  The horse then usually has the grace to look abashed, especially if teased a bit...but the warning stands and the horse will simply move closer to the food and busy itself there, just as Black Dragon did with the sheep. Dany might do well to keep more of a distance during feeding squabbles, but that doesn't reflect much of anything about whether the dragons can be "backed."  I like too how in adolescence, Black Dragon has changed hue from Red, while Gold and Green remain more decorative.  

Of course if the showrunners want that moment to be foreshadowing of trouble to come, it is. But my guess is that "Dragon stuff" was on D.B. Weis's list of things he wanted to play with in his first crack at directing.  I was more amused by Dany's reaction when Black Dragon took wing from a foot away: she leaned back slightly, as if stirred by a more whim of a breeze. Given the size of Black Dragon now, I'd think that backdraft would have been enough to blow her halfway to Westeros.  

[ChocButterfly]

If the Wall is a magical structure, who built it? And if it's magical, then it can't be destroyed, can it? Maybe it's not really a structure but some sort of natural barrier that they took advantage of and made holes to pass through? The thing sure looks like a mountain rather than a wall. Maybe it has always been there. Another thing I don't get is how the Wildings got the short end of the stick in the land repartition. Poor guys ended up at the wrong side of the Wall with all the WW, giants and endless Winters! No wonder they hate "southerners".

I think in the end the Wildings and the rest of the Westeros folks will have to unite against the WW. That is, if they ever get to the other side of the Wall. Talk about slow! These guys have been walking South since season 1, they should be in Essos by now!

Pallas, I agree with what you said about the dragons. Dogs do that as well when you come near their food if you don't train them well. It doesn't mean they are turning wild. However, Dany might want to watch a couple of episodes of the Dog Whisperer so she can learn how to train her dragons and show them who's the leader of the pack. If she lets Black Dragon assume Alpha Male status, she will loose control of him. She needs to show him she's the leader. The other 2 are pretty submissive, but she has to start asserting herself with Blacky. Maybe she can use a clicker or something. I used to give biscuits to my dog, it worked. She can treat Blacky with little pieces of lamb. She already taught them "Dracarys", but we haven't seen her in training mode anymore; probably cuz she's busy with liberating slaves and all that. But if those dragons cannot find lambs around anymore, they'll probably start eating the ex-slaves.

[DirewolfPup]

Well, of course this is a fantasy series. But I'd like to think the laws of melting still follow earthly parameters. How it got built is fun to speculate about. I like ChocButterfly's theory that it was carved out of an existing mountain. Reminds me of the mountain range between Spain and France (the Pyrannies?).

Pallas, I thought they mentioned builders besides Bran (?) the Builder who built the wall initially. I'll have to re-watch the scene in Season 1 where Jon & team get assigned their jobs.

The dragon's aggression over food also reminded me a lot of those Animal Planet shows where they rehabilitate abused dogs. One of their tests is behavior when their food is taken away.

Edited April 11, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[izabella]

If the Wall is a magical structure, who built it? And if it's magical, then it can't be destroyed, can it?

We saw a part of the Wall break off when Jon, Ygritte and the Wildlings were climbing it.  So it seems that it can potentially be destroyed.  Or maybe the Wall IS magic and was trying to knock them off, heh heh.

I'm still not clear on the Wildlings' plan.  Are they trying to get a home base south of the Wall so the other Wildlings have a place to go to escape the WW?  Why do they think the Wall will keep the WW's at bay?

[90PercentGravity]

Perhaps the wall was forged by dragonfire.

[David T. Cole]

This topic has been moved into The Unsullied Habitat. I'm still adding info and stuff and things.

[WhiteStumbler]

Sean1991: Nope, sorry, not interested.

We are operating under the strictest interpretation of "Unspoiled"; Nothing but the show, from HBO static to closing credits. We want to see how well A Show can do what it does w/o relying on ANYTHING else. No websites, no "Next time on...", no DVD supplements, NOTHING else.

Please edit your post accordingly.

Thanks.

[Snowblack]

When Jon, Yggritte & Co climbed the wall and looked south, there was some snow on the ground. It thinned out to grass really quickly. Come to think of it, how is that possible? Does that make the wall tall enough to affect weather patterns? The south side of the wall would have a hard time staying icy if it got sunshine all day. The wall must be dozens if not hundreds of meters thick, so it might be a receding glacier situation where they have to rebuild in the winter.

I think the Wall has to create its own weather patterns.  It's a barrier to wind and moisture.  I live at the base of a not that big hill (a few hundred feet) with open spaces all around, and my wind, moisture, wildlife, everything is different from the areas on either side.  And the south side would definitely benefit (making assumptions about their sun and what hemisphere they're in).

I've always thought that the Wall must be a magical structure though.  Perhaps it's not, but it's not possible by anything we understand, or by what passes for technology that we've seen within the story.  There seem to be different forces at play in this particular world so the rules of our reality and theirs aren't exactly the same. 

That's just one of the battle cries of the genre, I think.  Does it make a ton of sense?  Well, no.  Neither do dead armies walking, or men coming back from the dead multiple times, to name a few.  Some of this is sort of "the gods decreed in that world, and I just go with it in this one" stuff. 

Yes!  This!  I tried to figure out the astronomical forces that would need to be at work, and gave up.  I thought out the genetic issues, and gave up.  It's fiction, and trying to make sense of it just makes my head hurt.  What's funny is that I had the hardest time with the zombies that don't follow the usual "zombie rules."  "What do you mean a head shot won't work?"  Then I decided that their bodies are animated by magic in ways that make their central nervous system irrelevant.

I agree, shimpy, that the Wall must be a magical structure.  Absolutely no social compact we've seen on Westeros seems cohesive enough, never mind skilled enough, to pull it off.  And the Wall also seems to maintain itself: I don't recall seeing or hearing about parties of Rangers, say, dispatched on a regular basis to maintain it, as one must with any wall or fence, anywhere else in the universe. What cowboys really do all day.

Jon said something about this when he was telling Tormund about the Night's Watch forces on the Wall.  He said that there are engineers and rangers who go up.  So my guess is that the engineers are checking for structural issues and making repairs.  How they would do that is beyond me.

[Snowblack]

Pallas and ChocButterfly, I loved the reality of the dragon scene too, and thought Jorah overreacted.  I loved that they incorporated such a natural, instinctual response into the scene.  It doesn't mean the dragons can't be ridden.  It just means that they aren't domesticated animals, and Dany needs to keep her guard up and work with them consistently.

[David T. Cole]

We are operating under the strictest interpretation of "Unspoiled"; Nothing but the show, from HBO static to closing credits. We want to see how well A Show can do what it does w/o relying on ANYTHING else. No websites, no "Next time on...", no DVD supplements, NOTHING else.

I stole this for the official Unsullied Habitat spoiler explanation in the pinned welcome topic.

[Pallas]

Thanks for notes about previous mentions of the Wall's being monitored. As for who built it...I lean toward some race that has since perished, or only returns to observe/intervene at key moments in the world's history, every eon or so.

Okay, the Primary Entertainment.  Yikers.  What band (of brigands) has Joffrey hired for this, his prom?  What wings will he pull off which flies? What crowning outrage will he perpetrate?  

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Today @ 10:47 am

I agree, shimpy, that the Wall must be a magical structure.  Absolutely no social compact we've seen on Westeros seems cohesive enough, never mind skilled enough, to pull it off.  And the Wall also seems to maintain itself: I don't recall seeing or hearing about parties of Rangers, say, dispatched on a regular basis to maintain it, as one must with any wall or fence, anywhere else in the universe. What cowboys really do all day.

I assume that is what "the Builders" do (as in, so n so is with the Rangers, Sam and Jon are with the Stewards, so n so is with the Builders...)

[Pallas]

This topic has been moved into The Unsullied Habitat. I'm still adding info and stuff and things. -- David T. Cole

David, thank you.  I love the image of our roaming companionably and cluelessly through our own Unsullied Habitat, beneath flights of watchful dragons, overhead.   

[WhiteStumbler]

RE: The seasons on GoT - I watched the Cosmos reboot a while ago and it went into the formation of the Earth, how the Moon was created shortly after, and the effect of the Moon on our axial tilt (and hence, our seasons). If you Google "if earth didn't have a moon" the top return leads to this...

But without our Moon, there would be nothing preventing catastrophic shifts in our rotational axis. It’s probable that sometimes, we’d be like the planet Mercury, orbiting in the same plane as our rotation, and having practically no seasons due to our axial tilt. At other times, we’d possibly be as extreme as Uranus, rotating on our side like a barrel, having the most extreme seasons imaginable!

Huh. "The most extreme seasons imaginable." Sounds like... winter is coming!

Has anyone seen a moon on the show? I remember there have been shots of the sky with a comet, and I remember that one of Dany's "It Is Known" girls said something about another moon that came too close to the Sun and cracked open, spilling dragons into the world, but I don't remember a shot of the moon in the sky off the top of my head. I can't actually remember that many outdoor night shots - The Red Woman and her Old Gods clambake on the beach, Robb marrying Talisa, Most of Blackwater (S2Ep9), the Stark boys & co. escaping Winterfell, Renly's camp at night, and I don't recall a moon in any of those shots. Yet there has to be a moon, right? The handmaiden told Dany about a second moon, and Drogo called Dany "moon of my life", so if there wasn't a "moon" in the sky, would the word even exist? Or maybe if there were two moons, the larger one is gone now and only a small one remains, unable to have much effect on axial tilt?

/geekout

[stillshimpy]

Has anyone seen a moon on the show?

We know there is a moon, WhiteStumbler.  I was just over in our original thread the other day, grabbing some stuff (she says vaguely, but you can probably guess what I was copying and then pasting for my own personal violate-no-laws use) and someone had actually quote the "It is known" chorus girls from the first episodes as having explained to Dany where Dragons came from in the beginning.  Apparently there were two moons, according to It Is Known Girl, one came too close to the sun and cracked open.  

So there are moon(s).  It is known. *nods* 

Huh. "The most extreme seasons imaginable." Sounds like... winter is coming!

Man, I hope not.  Where I live Winter has just barely consented to leave. 

Edited April 11, 2014 by stillshimpy