Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[90PercentGravity]

Someone needs to lord over Casterly Rock. Since Jaime has already refused, maybe Tyrion will take her there.

[Snowblack]

I think Oberyn (?) does have some kind of honor. He didn't just kill those Lannister men, even though he clearly could have. Sure, he bated them a bit, but even then he did not kill them. I think Myracell is safe. Yes, she is a Lannister, but she had nothing to do with what happened to his sister. She is young enough that she can be turned against her family if treated well, also.

Oberyn's treatment of Tyrion points to an understanding that the people who did the evil deeds to his sister are solely responsible.  So to me that bodes well for Myrcella.  Even though Cersei having a fit about her daughter being sent to Dorne makes more sense now.  Of course, I could be wrong, and Oberyn just understands that murdering Tyrion will make it harder to get to Tywin.  Somehow I doubt that's the case.  He seems like a straight shooter.

I just realized, the Targaryans have actually married with other Houses, or at least the Martels. So I was wondering if maybe Dorne is on Dany's side.

Great thinking.  Maybe Dany's brother wasn't entirely delusional about having supporters in Westeros.

I posted something earlier on the episode thread that said it was spoiler free.  Looks like that's the wrong place.  I guess I'll repost it here.

I loved the season opener.  In the past, episodes with this much stuffed into them have seemed rushed and disorienting.  I didn't feel that way about this episode at all.  Ending with a series of Hound/Arya scenes was fantastic. 

I didn't catch on at first that Tywin was melting down Ned's sword.  I thought it was Robb's sword and Robb's wolf's pelt until Tywin mentions the sword having been large enough to make two.  I imagine Tywin had planned to give Jaime the two-handed sword, but changed plans once a one-handed Jaime returned.  Tywin sending Jaime off to Casterly Rock was a good idea.  It gets him away from Cersei and the King's Guard, and it forces him to take on his role as Tywin's heir.  Of course, Cersei will supposedly go be Loras' bride in High Garden soon enough (but I have my doubts about that ever happening).

I liked the new characters from Dorne.  I don't think Oberyn is attractive at all, and his hatred for the Lannisters makes me think that Myrcella might not be any better off in Dorne than Sansa is in King's Landing.  Having a vengeful prince running around in King's Landing might make for some fun scenes.  It would be nice to see Tywin uncomfortable for once.

I'm thrilled that Arya found Needle! Now she needs her wolf back.  :)  When I saw that inn, I wondered if she might be reunited with Hot Pie, even if just for a scene.  I was surprised Arya waited so long to jump into the fight.  I know she wants the Hound to die, but the consequences would have been horrific for her.  I like that she got her first taste of revenge.  It reminded me very much of the scene where Brienne kills that last Stark soldier who raped the tavern wench. 

The new Daario...I don't know how I feel about him.  If they had cast this actor originally, I'm sure it would be fine.  They should at least have put him in a long wig, so he doesn't look like every other male in the series.  He also doesn't have the same swagger as the S3 Daario.  He's acting like a lovesick puppy.  The flower scene was just lame.

Cersei's rejection of Jaime surprised me.  I guess it goes to show how wrapped up in herself she truly is.  All sorts of random rejection going on all of a sudden.  Tyrion not being in the mood struck me as wrong for his character.  He went from having unquenchable lust to disinterest because...he's stressed?  He's married?  Huh?  It makes no sense to me.

So my questions after this episode (that I don't want answered):

I'm wondering whether the necklace Ser Dontos gave Sansa was the same one the Queen of Thorns threw into the bushes, or if it really was a family heirloom.  The necklace obviously will have some significance. 

Did Tywin really disown Jaime?  That doesn't make sense, since (I assume) that truly does make Tyrion Tywin's heir.  I thought Tywin was pretty clear about his thoughts on that eventuality.

[WhiteStumbler]

RE: Dead Ned's sword - I could have sworn I heard it called "Ice" somewhere. If not, it should be called that!

Abelard: I don't think Granny Tyrell would take the necklace from Sansa and give it to Mags. Seems petty and cruel, neither of which she seems to be. Agree that the price would be high for anyone helping Sansa escape.

stillshimpy: I don't think Tyrion could send Shae away. I think he is truly in love with her, and Tyrion's Lannister pride convinces him that HE is the only one who is smart / rich / enough of a schemer to protect Shae. It is hubris. His fall will wound them both, but I think he lives. I am uncertain as to Shae, but Tyrion isn't capable of willingly parting ways from her. It might end in her death.

90PercentGravity: I heard it as Storms End.

[skiddy]

Hey guys, great job on finding this new place. TWOP going down was very bad news.. Can't wait to read what you've spitballed out of the season's premiere already :)

[stillshimpy]

I'm going to derail this very briefly, I've been trying to get messages out to the Unsullied group  Please check your messages at TWoP.  We need to have an off-board meetup at our closed board.  If you didn't get a PM from me but are part of the group, that just means your PM box was full, my PM box is full, or I wasn't able to get to you.  You can also email me at my yahoo addy or try PMing me at TWoP  for information on how to get there.  Thank you to all who are interested, but it is a meeting for members of some duration.  Thank you, back to the Snow! 

Winter is...yeah well, you know the rest.  

[ChocButterfly]

I don't think Tyrion could send Shae away. I think he is truly in love with her, and Tyrion's Lannister pride convinces him that HE is the only one who is smart / rich / enough of a schemer to protect Shae. It is hubris. His fall will wound them both, but I think he lives. I am uncertain as to Shae, but Tyrion isn't capable of willingly parting ways from her. It might end in her death.

Kentucky Fried Hound, if you really love someone you let them go :p. But yeah, I'm pretty sure Tyrion will survive till the end, Shae however, won't survive this season. As someone else named her "Dead Whore Walking", and please if anyone remembers who named her like that, let me know!

Hmm... I guess.  Though Targaryans married Baratheons (we know from season 1 and the geneology book), and that didn't help them any.

Huh? There are so many things I don't catch or remember! I didn't know the Targs had married Baratheons, I thought they only married their sisters. That's why I always come to the forums after each episode, I didn't even catch that was Ned's sword being melted. Too many little things. It actually took me a while to remember Dany's name, all I remember was Targaryan. One year is too long to wait for new seasons....

I really disliked Olyna throwing that necklace away. I'm sure that necklace could probably feed an entire family for a month. I know they don't care about servants or whatever, but I would have preferred if she had casually given it to a servant, or even throw it to a servant.

You know I was watching the episode again but translated in Spanish and we use Kilometers, instead of Miles. So when the crucified slave appeared and Dany asked how many more, Jorah said one for each Km, 262!!! In English they were 163 miles, so they increased the number of dead people just like that for a unit conversion! Hehe.

[DirewolfPup]

Haha! I bet those 99 fictitious slaves would prefer mile markers over kilometers.

[Snowblack]

I’m a bit worried about that necklace Sansa got from Ser Dontos. I suspect it means bad things for her, or most certainly for him. - ColoredFrancie

I'm intrigued by the necklace and someone else's idea (sorry, I couldn't find the post) that Ser Dontos is going to kill Joffrey.  It would be so poetic and a perfect end. But if things did unfold that way, the necklace could make Sansa look complicit.  She has every reason to kill Joffrey, and I don't know whether anyone who matters would give her the benefit of the doubt.

[stillshimpy]

I think Tyrion is already to the point that he wants her to go, when Shae kept pressing him about it, he pulled the "I am answering in affirmative, by refusing to answer in the negative" thing.  When she asked him if he wanted her to leave, there was no "No, stay with me, never leave me! Love! Love! Let me sing you a song and write you a sonnet!"  Hell, there wasn't even a "No, I don't want you to go."  

Tyrion does love Shae, but I think his physical passion for her has burned out, as happens both through and circumstance and now his love is more likely to make him think "I don't want you to be dismembered and strewn about my quarters" than he is to decide he can't bear to be apart from her.  Part of the reason she stormed out was that Tryion wasn't saying the "I want you to stay, I need you near me" stuff.  Instead he said that he didn't send her a bag of diamonds to leave (without saying he wanted her to stay) and saying in response to "Do you love her?" about Sansa, "She's a child!"  which actually was the one that made me wince because Sansa is a teenager, but the problem is that she's not a child, that's why she was married off.  By our standards, she is a child.  By the standards of that world, she's a gray zone.  

And Tyrion wasn't denying that he loved her.  Not, "No, of course not.  She's a child."  But rather an answer that implied that if he didn't view her as a child, he might feel differently.  I think in a lot of scenes what doesn't get said is as important as what does. 

Choc Butterfly, would you shoot me a PM on TWoP, please?  I can't dig you up from the member lists. 

I also don't think Granny Tyrell would try and take Sansa's necklace for Margaery's wedding ensemble.  Whereas it is pretty, it isn't spectacular.  It looked rather modest by the standards of royalty, and also I don't think some fallen family's forgotten Jewels are going to be particularly impressive to Granny Tyrell. 

I really disliked Olyna throwing that necklace away. I'm sure that necklace could probably feed an entire family for a month. I know they don't care about servants or whatever, but I would have preferred if she had casually given it to a servant, or even throw it to a servant.

But that was the point.  Casting it off as if it was garbage was the point she was trying to make.  Also, i wouldn't despair, because some enterprising servant will be all over that bauble in a red-hot King's Landings Opportunist Second.  Hell, one of Varys spiders probably caught the damned thing while listening in. 

Edited April 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[skiddy]

Not sure where the whole Fool/Sansa thing is going. If this is only about setting up an escape plan for Sansa, then what's the point of the necklace?

I'm also not sure about Dorne/Oberyn's plans. It does not sound very wise to come to town basically claiming you intend to kill the Hand. Dorne apparently did not enter any wars in recent years, so you'd think they have played it smart so far, hence why ruin it with such an introduction?

[stillshimpy]

Not sure where the whole Fool/Sansa thing is going. If this is only about setting up an escape plan for Sansa, then what's the point of the necklace?

To show us why he might help her?  I mean, they could have had him pop out of the bushes and say, "Thanks! *burp*" to establish that.  Giving her a prized family heirloom establishes that he's emotionally invested in her well-being and has taken his gratitude into admiration of her as a human being.  

[skiddy]

Yes, sorry, I forgot that she actually saved his life.. makes sense.

[stillshimpy]

Well, but Dontos is a bit of a misfit and although it hasn't always proven to be the case, misfits are ever-so-slightly less likely to die in this story than every other poor soul.  Witness the fact that he survived his first encounter with Joffrey.  Like I said, that's not a foolproof approach, but he looks like Sansa's version of Sam to my eyes and Sam has a way of surviving that is absolutely astounding.  

Also? A little unlikely considering a White Walker looked directly at him at the end of Season 2, but for all that?  Still, Sam has survived things in this story that no one else would have.  Dontos seems a little bit like that too.  Sort of the same deal with Tyrion.  Tryion was felled on the battlefield in an assassination attempt and he lives on.  Joffrey tried to get his Public Sadist on with Dontos and Sansa (of all people) managed to save him by her wits alone. 

Now that's an unlikely escape.  Sam could barely run five paces without falling on his face for several seasons and I'm being literal about that. He would flop face first to the ground.  He's survived an encounter with the Army of the Dead, he's the only person to have killed a White Walker.  Apparently there were cannibals looking for "marbled" crows (*hurl*) the entire time he was wandering around being amply fleshed North of the Wall.  This story is slightly easier on misfits. 

I am in no way seeking to be unkind when I say: Dontos has the air of Misfit about him.  He also handed out the Talisman of Possible Survival: something that belong to his mother.  Remember Sam's thimble? He gave it to ....oh god, what is her name??? Girl with baby named Sam ...and I would have sworn up and down he'd only ever seen that thing filled with her blood, if that.  Instead, he saved her while facing off against a true monster. 

Sound like anything Dontos just did? Because it did to me.  I think Dontos will save her from Joffrey, who is a TRUE monster. 

[WhiteStumbler]

stillshimpy: Gilly is the name of Craster's daughter/wife who got the thimble.

Does the Talisman of Possible Survival work even if the giver of the Talisman is dead? Thinking of the doll Dead Ned gave to Sansa.

Also, Dontos survived the Battle of Blackwater doing his Inept Juggler bit in the room where Cersei and Sansa were having their 'Bit of A Rape' drinking game. What possible significance could that necklace have? Are the stones in it some sort of @sshole kryptonite, and "King" Joffrey will fall to the ground paralyzed in its presence while Sansa suffocates him with a lemmoncake?

[90PercentGravity]

I didn't consider the necklace having any more significance than giving sansa a pick-me-up. I suppose it could, but I thought it was just a way too remind her that she could still do some good. She needs to quit moping around and embrace the power that being a Lannister gives her. Once they trust her she can bring them down from the inside.

Arya and Littlefinger are both headed toward The Vale. Wonder if they will cross paths on the way, or is Littlefinger already there?

[Pallas]

Catching up up up...

When Cersei was so adamant about not marrying Loras, I assumed that was because she was planning to have him killed. Which would be a stupid thing to do. Which makes me think that's EXACTLY what she's going to do. -- Colored Francie  

Ah: so maybe Cersei is working with the ex-Maester to poison Loras?  Which might explain her seeming satisfaction about reporting "no symptoms."Loras or, even, Tywin?  No Tywin, no marriage; the Tyrells sure aren't going to push it...If i believe Pycelle about anything, I believe him that in this story, under certain conditions, "poison is a woman's weapon," and we've been waiting for proof of that a very long time. All we have so far is Cersei's possible participation in the murder of Jon Arryn. 

"Oh please, please, please let Tywin lose EVERYTHING before he dies. EVERYTHING. " Then he threw the wolf pelt on the fire and I wanted him to have more things to lose, just so I could see it happen. -- stillshimpy

I know we disagree about whether Tywin knows about the twincest, shimpy, but as I wrote before -- Tywin's discovering just how fucked up is his legacy, just before he dies, would be enormously satisfying.  And we would know it matters to him, precisely because we would understand that all along, Tywin had to have been in rampant, nearly neurotic denial about it.  Like his former Hound, Tywin does have codes. Breeding with one's sibling would seem to him to be...cheating.  Like "pillow-biting" among men: possibly tempting, but to be resisted as unmanly. Procreation by the Lannisters is for Tywin, I think, an ill-devised but essential form of conquest.

Inigo Martell (TM White Stumbler) seems focused on The Mountain and Tywin, though contemptful of all Lannisters. I don't know that he would try to get at Joffrey. But everything is so incredibly public, it's a freakin' royal wedding - he can't challenge one of these people and get out of there alive, and he certainly doesn't seem to be keeping his intentions a secret. And why would he bring the wrath of the Lannisters down on his kingdom? He seems to have a pretty committed relationship (if not monogamous). Does he also have a death wish?  -- Colored Francie

Inigo Martell too has a code, I'm sure, and he was himself quick to point out that he is but the spare.  He might be willing to take one in his sister's name, if he can avenge her on the Mountain, at least.  But I agree that both he and A Show have been a little in our faces about his motive and mad skillz.  I can see Tyrion's taking precautions that prove to misdirected, and then being assigned the blame.  On this occasion I think we can consider Tyrion the wedding planner and Joffrey the bride  -- and Bridezilla, First of His Sex.  Hell, if anything should happen at his wedding, Joffrey will surely also indict Sansa, since it's she that he threw over in favor of Margaery... 

Jaime's missing hand and his family ostracizing him or alienating him in various ways:  I think that Jaime's de-handing "reads" like a castration to Cersei and to Joffrey.  In Cersei's mind, Jaime is now impotent. -- abelard

I agree.  No need to commission any statues in honor of Lannisters who founded the Westeros Special Olympics.  

[stillshimpy]

By the way, I'm loving the entire, "Hello, my name is Inigo Martell.  You bisected my sister, prepare to die."  thing. 

WhiteStumbler, maybe it's the power of the "this belong to my mother" deal?  I don't know, but that guy was reminding me a great deal of Sam before he actually was in full view and started talking.  "Hey, someone is...lumbering...about back there?  How clandestine.  Sam?"  

No, it's the heavyset misfit! Come to save the day! 

Pallas, we do indeed hold opposing views on the "Does the Pater know about the Twincest?" subject, but you're right, it would be even better if he found that out in the fifteen minutes or so before he died. 

What possible significance could that necklace have? Are the stones in it some sort of @sshole kryptonite, and "King" Joffrey will fall to the ground paralyzed in its presence while Sansa suffocates him with a lemmoncake?

i wasn't being literal, but boy would it ever rock if Joffrey turned out to have a powerful citrus allergy and was done in by trying to kiss Sansa after she finally got her appetite back ;-)  No seriously, I don't think there is a literal significance.  I was just thinking that it was symbolic.  Also, Sam gave his thimble to someone he was besotted by, but someone he'll actually never be able to marry, or love openly.  That's kind of the same deal with Dontos.  I don't think he would have been trailing around after Bertha the Toothless but Hefty, vs. Sansa the Tall and Graceful, you know?  

Plus, there's a neat bit of reversal in a knight giving a lady his (figurative) favor.  It's usually the other way around "I'll wear this scarf, hanky, hair ribbon proudly and try not to bleed all over it in the heat of the joust!" being the way it is normally done.  Besides, at least Dontos the Stout knows how to fight, so there's some hope. 

Edited April 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[RadiantAerynSun]

Funny, when Sam gave Gilly that thimble I considered it Plot Armor as there was no way they wouldn't later be reunited, thus giving the thimble meaning. Wow, did I really not know this show back then. But in that case I was right!

[Snowblack]

Arya and Littlefinger are both headed toward The Vale. Wonder if they will cross paths on the way, or is Littlefinger already there?

I would love to see LF and Arya mix it up.  I'm betting LF will be at the Vale if/when Arya gets there. 

I'm not sure whether LF is going to the Vale to court Crazy Aunt Lysa or whether a marriage has already been arranged.  I wouldn't think it would be within Tywin's power (or Joffrey's) to marry her off to anyone.  Her father died last season, and even if he hadn't, I don't know what a father's rights are to make decisions on behalf of his widowed daughter.  I think LF thinks he can walk into the Vale and sweep her off her feet.  And I think he has underestimated the nuthouse he's entering.  I'm curious what you all think about it.

[Pallas]

 

Well, but Dontos is a bit of a misfit and although it hasn't always proven to be the case, misfits are ever-so-slightly less likely to die in this story than every other poor soul.  Witness the fact that he survived his first encounter with Joffrey.  Like I said, that's not a foolproof approach, but he looks like Sansa's version of Sam to my eyes and Sam has a way of surviving that is absolutely astounding.  -- stillshimpy

And more of that you wrote, shimpy, about the Perverse Power of Cripples, Misfits and Broken Things (TM Tyrion of Casterly Rock, Master of Coining Phrases.)  Beautifully put.

If I may add, it seems that in this vision, for the most part, the Unfortunate needs to have been misbegotten -- innately unfortunate -- or like the Hound or Bran, thwarted very young.  Both of these have also survived adventures and vendettas that should have ended worse, even, than they did.

Given how fast he travels, he's probably waiting there with a nice little slave army he picked up someplace in Essos... -- Conan Troutman

 

Laughing...And, also: Littlefinger, The Liberator.  ("I just told them, 'Don't trust me.' They threw gold and opened their gates.")

[DirewolfPup]

All this speculation about Sansa, Sir Dantos, and the necklace has me humming a particular song from Wicked (No good deed goes unpunished. No act of charity goes unresented...)

This has to mean more than a wake up call for Sansa. Something good or very very bad is going to result from this exchange. A Show would not waste time on A Necklace. Cannibals do prefer well-marbled meals...

[janjan]

Ya gotta, er, hand it to Jaime. He's the only one who has effectively stood up to Tywin, by refusing to go be Lord of Castleyrock. And Tywin can't make him do it, unlike Cersei+Loras, which Cersei can't get out of except by pulling off something sneaky. There's gotta be a role for Maester Goldenarm there.

I don't think Tywin disowned Jaime. When he said "A man with one hand and no family," he probably meant no wife and children.

I'm getting increasingly bothered by domestic arrangements at KL -- specifically, who's responsible for who else's upkeep. Like, who paid for Sansa's food and snazzy dresses after Joffers dumped her? And who's harboring Brienne? Or is KL a kind of homeless-aristocrat shelter where anyone can just come in, commandeer a room (and servants?), and be provided for at taxpayers' expense?

They'd better be careful about that. When Philip II arrived in England with his Spanish entourage to marry Queen Mary, the hosting expenses caused a big tax increase and much grumbling. And so, too, in GoT. Remember Cat in S1 fretting about how much the royal family's stay at Winterfell was costing them? And Tyrion holding up Olenna for $ for the big wedding?

A Show probably doesn't want to digress into explaining such mundame matters, but they're becoming a distraction. I'm also worried about how Dany is feeding her ever-growing horde.

OK, I bet I'm the only one who's worried. I also don't like Jaime's new haircut -- didn't even recognize him in his first scene.

ETA: Tywin has clearly heard about the twincest, but -- as he told Olenna -- he simply refuses to believe it. Practically speaking, that makes it not true, unless someone could come up with actual proof. But what would proof be in the days before DNA?

Edited April 9, 2014 by janjan

[DirewolfPup]

I'm not sure whether LF is going to the Vale to court Crazy Aunt Lysa or whether a marriage has already been arranged.  I wouldn't think it would be within Tywin's power (or Joffrey's) to marry her off to anyone.  Her father died last season, and even if he hadn't, I don't know what a father's rights are to make decisions on behalf of his widowed daughter.  I think LF thinks he can walk into the Vale and sweep her off her feet.  And I think he has underestimated the nuthouse he's entering.  I'm curious what you all think about it.

I guess Edamure is Lysa's guardian now. Can Edamure force her to marry? Cause last time I checked, dumb uncle Eddy was locked in a Frey prison without much room for negotiation.

Edited April 9, 2014 by DirewolfPup

[Snowblack]

A Show probably doesn't want to digress into explaining such mundame matters, but they're becoming a distraction. I'm also worried about how Dany is feeding her ever-growing horde.

I've been pondering the logistics of that too.  It's a nightmare to imagine the amount of livestock, grain, etc they're hauling around to feed presumably tens of thousands of people.  Did they drag the entire larders of the cities they conquered along with them?  Yeah, I know.  It's a tv show... 

I guess Edamure is Lysa's guardian now. Can Edamure force her to marry? Cause last time I checked, dumb uncle Eddy was locked in a Frey prison without much room for negotiation.

True that.  I was thinking it was Blackfish, as her uncle, but Edmure is the new Lord, so I guess it would be him, if anyone.  I'm looking forward to seeing where that storyline goes.  Hopefully Sunday!

[Pallas]

A Show would not waste time on A Necklace. Cannibals do prefer well-marbled meals... -- Direwolf Pup

Page 143, We Know What We Know: An Unsullied Guide to the Game of Thrones

Her father died last season, and even if he hadn't, I don't know what a father's rights are to make decisions on behalf of his widowed daughter. -- Snowblack

My guess would be that Lysa, as a wife of longstanding in the House of Arryn, would now be subject to their titular male head. So far as we know, I think, there isn't one.  She would then probably be under the protection of the Crown (lucky lady!), since she is Lady Regent of the Vale?

[North Star]

Page 143, We Know What We Know: An Unsullied Guide to the Game of Thrones

My guess would be that Lysa, as a wife of longstanding in the House of Arryn, would now be subject to their titular male head. So far as we know, I think, there isn't one.  She would then probably be under the protection of the Crown (lucky lady!), since she is Lady Regent of the Vale?

The titular male head of House Arryn would be Lysa's son Robin, who is Lord of the Vale.  So if that were the person who could order Lysa to remarry, she in a sense totally controls him.

However, just going on the basis of general Medieval history (which Westeros borrows a lot from), typically at law there was nobody who could compel a widow's remarriage.  Widowhood was the most common vehicle for women to become totally independent of male supervision, as they had passed outside their birth family's jurisdiction with marriage, and on the decease of their husband, the guy who had assumed her father's place (hence the "giving away of the bride" handoff that we still see in contemporary marriage ceremonies), there was nobody else who had authority over them.  Hence, for instance, the Wife of Bath in Chaucer's Canterbury Tales.  If that holds true (and I think it seems to be the case, since the Council talks about Littlefinger wooing her, not showing up with a royal command), there's nobody who could make Lysa do anything at this point, at least in theory.

I expect there are many practical circumstances where a widow wouldn't have any choice in the matter.  An extreme case would be Sansa; if Tyrion drank himself to death tomorrow, she'd be forced at swordpoint to marry whoever else Tywin ordered.  But more mundanely, that also seems to be the case with Tywin and Cersei; Tywin controls the purse strings and basically runs the government, so it doesn't matter that he no longer has any actual authority over Cersei at this point, she feels compelled to, at least on the surface, comply with whatever he ordains.

Like I said, this is just English Medieval history, which Westeros draws inspiration from, but doesn't always emulate by any means, so it may be that their law works differently.  But I'd question whether anybody would really want a system where a bride's birth family could start meddling in the affairs of her family-by-marriage just because her husband died, which would be the case if Lysa still needed the permission of her father or brother to remarry.  That would mean that House Tully could effectively take management of House Arryn until Robin grows up.

Edited April 9, 2014 by North Star

[stillshimpy]

Or maybe Brienne was the recipient of hospitality for delivering Jaime back to King's Landing?  

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

They'd better be careful about that. When Philip II arrived in England with his Spanish entourage to marry Queen Mary, the hosting expenses caused a big tax increase and much grumbling. And so, too, in GoT. Remember Cat in S1 fretting about how much the royal family's stay at Winterfell was costing them? And Tyrion holding up Olenna for $ for the big wedding?

They also talked alot in previous seasons about the Crown being in debt, not only to the Lannisters but to the Bank of Braavos, IIRC. What of that?

 

Page 143, We Know What We Know: An Unsullied Guide to the Game of Thrones

Oh, would be nice if someone wrote such a book, that perhaps had an episode-by-episode breakdown of WHAT WE KNOW NOW with all new factoids gleaned from each episode.

 

Brienne looked as if she were dressed in what I call Tyrell Blue, so perhaps Margaery did her a solid and footed her bills.  Or perhaps Brienne's dad sent a RavenMoneyGram.

Aren't sapphires blue? LOL

[Pallas]

Do we know how Brienne came to be serving Renly -- is the Tarth ruling house bannermen to the Tyrells?  Brienne only came to be in Renly's King's Guard, yes, and never Robert's?  

Edited April 9, 2014 by Pallas

[stillshimpy]

Well, apparently she was in love with Renly and fought to be placed in his King's Guard.  As to how she came to be in love with Renly.  Beats me, but she was over-the-moon for the guy and we saw her "knock [Loras] in the dirt" in front of Renly.  That's when she was named to the King's Guard.  

Presumably she wasn't in Robert's because a) in love with Renly b) a woman c) taunted as a freak at every turn. 

[North Star]

I'm getting increasingly bothered by domestic arrangements at KL -- specifically, who's responsible for who else's upkeep. Like, who paid for Sansa's food and snazzy dresses after Joffers dumped her? And who's harboring Brienne?

Between being dumped by Joffrey and being married to Tyrion she was "Crown property" (as Littlefinger put it), presumably some combination of royal ward (akin to Maid Marian in many tellings of Robin Hood) and hostage. Either way it would have been the Iron Throne footing the bills. After being married to Tyrion, House Lannister would presumably be paying her keep directly.

For Brienne, could be her dad's credit, could be Jaime's gratitude.

[Pallas]

Ah, thanks shimpy.  I guess how Brienne came to be in Renly's camp/in love with him is...something we are destined not to know.  I'll fanwank that Renly was once dispatched to Tarth on a Crown PR sortee, was a guest of Brienne's family, and treated her kindly.  Perhaps even allowed her to participate in a tournament held in his honor, and was impressed with her skills.  She, for her part, has just met the first man who didn't revile her or her skills.  As virginal as Sansa and not much older, she had long loved the same stories that beguiled Sansa, though she had always focused more on the parts with the knights and not the ladies.  Nonetheless she was fully versed in what passes in Westeros for chivalry, and suffered pangs of devotion for Renly as both her liege and her fantasy beloved.  When she heard he had rebelled against both Joffrey and Stannis and declared himself King, she seized her chance and set sail from Tarth to pledge her sword to him.  

It still puzzles me a little that Brienne would side with an acknowledged usurper. I would not call her a free spirit, or especially open-minded about anything other than her passion for soldiery. Many outliers such as she are deeply conventional in other ways, especially when it comes to other "red zones" such as sex or religion or politics.  Brienne strikes me as that sort of misfit: a highly disciplined, highly ethical, but also somewhat rules-bound sergeant or junior officer.

On the other hand, though, Brienne's largest actions speak loud and clear. She not only gave her loyalty to Renly, she then immediately pledged herself to Catelyn -- to Lady Stark alone, rather than Robb.  She assisted Catelyn in Cat's defiance of Robb, Cat's own Lord, by taking on the mission to return Jaime.  So I guess perhaps Brienne does have the heart of a rebel.  Or at least, a heart that serves any true, just kindness that she receives. 

[abelard]

I'm getting increasingly bothered by domestic arrangements at KL -- specifically, who's responsible for who else's upkeep. Like, who paid for Sansa's food and snazzy dresses after Joffers dumped her? And who's harboring Brienne? Or is KL a kind of homeless-aristocrat shelter where anyone can just come in, commandeer a room (and servants?), and be provided for at taxpayers' expense? -- janjan

 

Between being dumped by Joffrey and being married to Tyrion she was "Crown property" (as Littlefinger put it), presumably some combination of royal ward (akin to Maid Marian in many tellings of Robin Hood) and hostage. Either way it would have been the Iron Throne footing the bills. After being married to Tyrion, House Lannister would presumably be paying her keep directly.

For Brienne, could be her dad's credit, could be Jaime's gratitude. -- North Star

 

I agree with North Star: Sansa and Brienne were likely both fed/clothed on the Lannisters' bill.  The Lannisters are one of the only families that have money these days (the Tyrells being another, and House Martell also looks pretty swanky).  So it wouldn't be too much of a drain on them to feed and house Sansa (post-broken engagement, pre-marriage to Tyrion) and Brienne.  

I decided that Brienne is wearing Tyrell Blue (TM Constantinople) out of a sense of loyalty to dead King Renley, not b/c she's part of the Tyrell retinue now.  Olenna seemed extremely surprised to see her, so I don't think that Tyrells had contact with her before she showed up at their tea or whatever.  But Brienne loved Renley, so she's wearing colors that align her with his widow's family.  That's my take anyway.  If she "serves" anyone in  KL right now, I think it's Margery (as Renley's widow).  And of course, Sansa - well Brienne doesn't serve Sansa, but she feels obliged to help Sansa (since she -- Brienne -- gave her word to Cat) and she also feels that Jaime should feel obliged (since Jaime give his world to her -- Brienne).  

It drives me CRAZY that Jaime isn't leaping at the chance to help Sansa and fulfill the vow he made to Brienne.  I guess technically he thinks that if "their mother" is dead, his vow to "return the girls to their mother" is unfulfillable, but that's such nitpicking and clearly not in the spirit of the vow.  JAIME HAS NO HONOR, he doesn't even have a sense of what it might be to be honorable.  LANNISTERS SUCK (Tyrion exempted).  

[stillshimpy]

I think Jaime is just cynical as hell, more than anything.  He joined the Kingsguard and apparently it wasn't in order to be close to Cersei, because he served Aerys.  So that might have been a fit of "I will serve honorably and well in the thing I am best at...and where no one is likely to badger me to read constantly.  Suck it, Pater!" but with honor playing a part in that decision.  Or who knows, maybe he just want to stick it to his dad in the "won't ever have sons to pass your precious rock to and carry on your name" , but he served Aerys.  

So that had to be like a heaping side dish of disillusionment.  No matter what fine ideals a person might hold, you serve a raving madman and then find yourself faced with a situation where you think, "I have to break this sacred Oath, it's for the good of all!" and then everyone...everyone...reviles you for it.  You're infamous not as the guy who delivered everyone from Ser Burns A Bunch McGee and ended a war in doing so, thereby saving countless innocents.  

Then, oh joy, any remaining noble feelings about duty and honor would get ground to paste when your (wholly unnaturally) beloved sister is married off to the next King and he treats her like crap.  She's heartbroken and disillusioned alongside of him.  Apparently she even thought of Robert as the hero of the rebellion (that's what she told Ned).  I mean, consider that one for a moment and the giant heart owie that would result for Jaime.  Robert: The Hero of the Seven Kingdoms.  Jaime: The Kingslayer, Oath Breaker. *

So by the time we meet Jaime, he's infamously without honor in a "damned if he did and damned if he didn't" scenario.  People whisper about him wherever he goes and it doesn't matter that he's still the freaking best warrior, they still sneer.  

I think Jaime really just got to the "Fuck it.  What's the point of honor? It's all a lie anyway and there is no 'right' answer."  Oh and on top of that, Brienne was hitting up to honor his word to a dead woman -- who he knows best from her "bash me in the face with a rock" moments -- right after his sister, the person who (as twisted as it is) is supposed to have been THE love of his strange, thwarted, judged life ...dumps him for the most ridiculous reasons imaginable.  

Plus, what he said was telling, "I murdered people to get back here" (or something very like, I'm positive he used the word 'murdered') and the fact that Jaime made the distinction between people he'd killed in what might have been battle or justifiable grounds and that cousin who he choked to death with a chain for the sake of a expediency in yet another sacrifice of honor that apparently meant enough to him that he marked the difference. Cersei practically shrugged at that and if anyone knows Jaime well, it's got to be her.  It bugged him enough to bring it up and she, the person he thinks of as his mate in life (*hurl*) just discounted that with a "So what?" shrug.  

So timing wasn't Brienne's strong point in that moment when she appealed to "You gave your word" stuff, because I don't like Jaime, although he's been clopping along what passes for Redemption Highway for a season now, but she probably couldn't have picked a worse time to get all "Honor is at stake!"  in terms of where Jaime's head would be. 

*Geez, you'd think if anything would get you booted the hell out of the King's Guard, killing the King while still serving him would freaking do it.  

Edited April 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[abelard]

So timing wasn't Brienne's strong point in that moment when she appealed to "You gave your word" stuff, because I don't like Jaime, although he's been clopping along what passes for Redemption Highway for a season now, but she probably couldn't have picked a worse time to get all "Honor is at stake!"  in terms of where Jaime's head would be. 

*Geez, you'd think if anything would get you booted the hell out of the King's Guard, killing the King while still serving him would freaking do it.  

Good point about the timing of Brienne's urging of Jaime to fulfill the deal they struck (re: Sansa).  Maybe when Jaime can see that all that's left to him is to get fully on board the Redemption Train, he'll rethink Brienne's request.  And IA that Jaime totally gave up on the honor bit when it was really clear that no one thought he had any, anyway.  He turned to preemptively trying to hurt everyone else (except Tyrion and Cersei), before they could wound him.  But still...COME ON JAIME LANNISTER!!  That train sure does move slooooooowwwwllly.  

IA that it's weird that Jaime "got" to continue to serve on the Kingsguard post-Aerys but I think Tywin Lannister may have had something to do with that (Tywin may have wanted Jaime to stay close to King Robert for some reason, just intel at the very least).

[stillshimpy]

(Tywin may have wanted Jaime to stay close to King Robert for some reason, just intel at the very least).

You'd think he'd have wanted to free up his best bet at producing an heir, both by likelihood and actual preference (which is another reason I think Tywin knows that Cersei's children are her children with Jaime).  Admittedly, you're likely right about the invaluable intelligence from serving on the Kingsguard.  After all, if Jaime had been booted, Tywin would have had a hard time providing another "Take this meritorious Lannister instead!" if Jaime was kicked out for a spot of King Killing. 

Okay, so Dany's never ending trek through the Slave Hotspots of the Desert isn't the most riveting story to me, so it finally just occurred to me: Wait, who nailed those poor slaves to the road posts, pointing the way?  The city she's heading towards, right?  Why in the name of old gods and the new, would they want to make sure a) that she arrives there b) she arrives there as pissed off as humanly possible? 

It's just the entire "Wow, the street signs here are of the Grim variety" suggests they know all about her, which also suggests that they know she has gigantic a Unsullied Army.  What the hell do they have that makes them treat that that nonchalantly? 

Edited April 9, 2014 by stillshimpy

[North Star]

I got the impression it was the sending a message.  If they're looking to piss her off, perhaps they feel they've got a good plan for how to deal with her.

Or they're just really dumb.  None of the slavers we've seen to date in this region have two brain cells to rub together.  The cunning villains all seem to live in Westeros.

Edited April 9, 2014 by North Star

[WhiteStumbler]

I think Jaime really just got to the "Fuck it.  What's the point of honor? It's all a lie anyway and there is no 'right' answer."

Jaime: So many vows. They make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Obey your father. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. What if your father despises the king? What if the king massacres the innocent? (S2 Ep7)

Am I really sympathizing, hell, rooting, for the man who pushed Bran out of a window for "love"? This show, I just... its... wow.

After Pallas' breakdown of the S4 cold opening, I have also been mulling over the Sword Birthing scene and Jaime's reaction to it, and Jaime said something about a "Doom". So I went back and found this...

Jaime: No one has made a Valyrian steel sword since the Doom of Valyria. (S4 Ep1)

Scrabble Face Woman in Qarth: (While painting on a man's back) This man must sail past Old Valyria; all who travel too close to the Doom must have protection. (S2 Ep7)

Maybe this was discussed before, but, The Doom; place, event, or both? I guess in our world it might be like someone saying "since Pearl Harbor" as shorthand for the entry of the US into WW2 in 1941, even though it is also a place? If it was an event, could it have been the reason the dragons started to get smaller and smaller? Maybe the reason "magic" retreated from this world? Like Valyria was somehow the source of magic, and something destroyed it? But it is still somehow threatening to humans (physically, mentally, spiritually, or...); otherwise why would Facedown Dude need calligraphy on his back? So many questions...

[Pallas]

Wow, White Stumbler, great catch on the Doom of Valyria!  I didn't make out what Jaime said, and didn't pay much heed to Scrabble Face, being too much amused by her preposterous...everything.  Airs, as well as couture.  She had the tongue-in-cheek gravitas of a Star Trek guest star Villager, in some backwater where Jim will be plumping for Progress!, and Spock will be humming, "The Prime Directive..."  

But maybe The Doom explains what possessed the Targeryns -- some of them, anyway -- to saddle up their dragons and head for Westeros?  A kind of radiation sickness that over centuries, continued to be passed along in the surviving, Westerosi dragons, and eventually doomed them?  Or your more poetic idea: that after the Targeryns conquered Westeros, The Doom in Illyria sent off a resonance that doomed the Westerosi dragons -- was part of a global recession of magic that worked its way into King's Landing from the Poles, vanquishing the dragons last of all the magical, "mythical"  creatures.  After the White Walkers, after the giants, after the direwolves were gone. 

[ChocButterfly]

Oh, I'm pretty sure Twyin knows about the twincest, he has heard the rumor several times. In fact, he has acknowledged hearing said rumors. He just prefers to ignore it or pretend it's not true. But deep down he knows it's true. I also get this strange vibe from Twyin...like there must be something else about this incest thing. Maybe it's just that i really dislike the guy, but that time when he saw Arya and made her work for him, I was sure something pervy would happen. Turns out I was wrong, but I still don't trust the guy. Cersei is just too afraid of him...

​Janjan​, I also believe Twyin didn't disown Jaimie. Plus, someone else mentioned that it wouldn't really matter if he had disowned him, cuz Jaime is in the Kingsguard, so he cannot inherit anyway. And I'm sure he gets a nice salary or stipend in his position, and Jaimie is not someone like Tyrion who spends fortunes on booze and hookers; so he's doing fine with what he has. No need for daddy's money. 

I understand the crown or the Lannisters paying for Sansa, it's no big deal, the girl is not a spender anyway. I am, however, extremely curious in how Dany is feeding her people. Yes, she liberated those cities, so they could have taken all the gold and supplies they wanted, but they are traveling through a dessert. I'm sure their provisions would have run out by now. Plus, she effectively destroyed the economic systems of entire cities, what are those former slaves living of? I hope they address this soon and Dany gets a mutiny from her adoring fans when they realize she can't feed them all. 

Edited to add:  Regarding Crazy Liza, I don't think the King, Edmure or anyone can tell her what to do. This is the woman who was willing to execute a Lannister with no proof whatsoever against him. She knows that as far as she can remain in her "impregnable" fortress, no one can mess with her. That's why I'm wondering what is Littlefinger' s plan? Does he actually think he could win her over? I don't see Liza going for someone like Littlefinger. He may have money, but he's not really from one of the important families. Plus the guy runs brothels for heaven's sake! I think he's in for a surprise when he gets there and finds out how crazy she really is.

Edited April 10, 2014 by ChocButterfly

[AlphaLine]

Thanks for those screenshots of the white book!

It confirms what I had suspected for some time: The Brotherhood without banners predates the current conflict in Westeros by quite a while, only then it was known as the 'Kingswood brotherhood'. They are looked upon as scum by the high lords and probably rightly so- Rather than being Robin-hood esque outlaws, the brotherhood is more like what outlaws were typically like- they steal money from anyone they can, sell people, and so on. All in the name of serving the common folk of course.

Interesting thing about the Hound. Arya asks him why he has no money, and that is because the brotherhood stole it. But she should have known about that.. she was there when it happened. Also if you go really far back ( season 2 ), the brotherhood also stole gold from the mountain, that was why he was torturing them.

I'm also wondering why Brienne isn't at least talking to Sansa. I mean really, why not?

Edited April 10, 2014 by AlphaLine

[Snowblack]

ChocButterfly, I think Tywin is well-aware of the likelihood that the twincest rumors are true.  And if they're true, Stannis is the rightful king.  Because of that and his obsession with legacy, he would never acknowledge those rumors.

As for Little Finger, he grew up with Catelyn and Lysa, but I'm sure not even he knows what he's walking into.  It'll be fun to watch him try to pander to her nuttiness and not set himself up for the long fall.  I'm assuming that episode two will cover the characters that were skipped in episode one, and I can't wait!  Any predictions?   

[North Star]

 

It confirms what I had suspected for some time: The Brotherhood without banners predates the current conflict in Westeros by quite a while, only then it was known as the 'Kingswood brotherhood'.

I'm unclear if that's meant to be the same organization. The BWB consists, from what we saw of them, of the remnants of the guys Ned sent out, plus miscellaneous "Stark deserters, Lannister deserters, Baratheon deserters" (from the Hound's dialogue).  They're wholly led by Lord Dondarrion and the fire priest, who were part of Ned's group.  It's possible they conducted a 'hostile takeover' of an existing organization, I suppose.

 

As for Little Finger, he grew up with Catelyn and Lysa, but I'm sure not even he knows what he's walking into.

Lysa lived in King's Landing with her husband prior to his being murdered, so Littlefinger would presumably have some recent experience with her, though I don't know how much of her present condition is a result of her husband's death.  Tyrion was baffled by her when he first saw her, so he clearly wasn't expecting that, which might be a clue -- though actually, was Tyrion living in King's Landing prior to the pilot episode?  He came north with the royal party, which might imply he did (I doubt he had much incentive to hang around with Tywin back at Casterly Rock).

[Pallas]

I'm not sure I understand why Cersei is so opposed to marrying Loras.  I suppose it's being sent away from the capital, where she...thinks she thrives? (But contemplates suicide.) Where she thinks she influences the game? (But know her father rules: her, and everyone else.) Where she can be near Joffrey? (Who she now fears and whose degeneration must pain her.) And, where she is afraid to leave the Keep, knows the populace has a new favorite in the despised Margaery...

On the other hand, High Garden: supposedly an Eden, where she could venture out, where all who see her would treat and acclaim her as The Lady, where she might actually start life again with babies to own and children to rule, and surely all the dalliances she could care to discretely maintain...

So is it (was it) Jaime, or simply her refusal to cede a position of barely feigned respect and no power, in the kingdom's capital?  Is Cersei so sunstruck by the mere proximity to power, that she can't bear to be out of its glare? Is she so in love with her own misery that she will accept no alternative?  

[abelard]

Just quickly on the Doom of Valeriya (sp?), I am pretty sure that that refers to the volcanoes erupting all over the place in Old Valeryia, which is depicted in the very first shot of the title credits (on the sword).  The volcanoes are erupting like crazy and the Valeryians (or maybe just the royal family or maybe just whoever could get to the Dragon Stable) are riding their dragons on out of there.  I presume, westward to Westeros.  (I did not notice that bit of sword history for a long time, someone else pointed it out on the TwoP boards).  Anyway, "since the Doom of Valeriya" and "passing the Doom of Valeryia" to me is about a specific event in a specific place - the apocalyptic (volcano-caused) end of Old Valeryia. 

[izabella]

I'm imagining that Lyssa has gotten even nuttier over time, since crazy doesn't usually get better - see Joffrey and Bolton's torturing bastard.  And Walder Frey.

I think Littlefinger might be up for the job, though.  He's plenty crazy himself in his own way - he really wants to win this whole thing.  His ambition knows no bounds.  And he had no qualms about selling Roz to Joffrey for target practice. 

[gingerella]

Not sure where the whole Fool/Sansa thing is going. If this is only about setting up an escape plan for Sansa, then what's the point of the necklace?

I'm also not sure about Dorne/Oberyn's plans. It does not sound very wise to come to town basically claiming you intend to kill the Hand. Dorne apparently did not enter any wars in recent years, so you'd think they have played it smart so far, hence why ruin it with such an introduction?

Yeah, these two new stories are intriguing to me. I wold normally foresee the Fool dying an ugly death, yet given his reappearance now, I can foresee his death being preceded by some really heroic act like someone else said, killing Joffrey. Perhaps Joffs goes off on Sansa publically for the millionth time in front of the Fool OR the Fool walks in on Joffs trying to do something heinous to Sansa and he kills that little fucker once and for all, before getting killed himself..though I wonder if the Kingsguard gives a shit about Joffs. It seems like nobody truly likes that little bugger so maybe the Fool would become a knight. Hey, stranger things have happened in the 7K.

Now about Oberyn's plans...hmmmmm...that is a bit baffling. It IS indeed perplexing in the social norms of Westeros, that someone from another kingdom would ride into town and slap his dick on the table and start swilling ale whilst insulting his hosts. I dont get that attitude at all, and yet I am very intrigued by Oberyn. I cannot imagine him turning a blind eye to Joffs debauched masochistic BS towards women. I am looking forward to whatever makes this dude snap.

Edited April 10, 2014 by gingerella

[David T. Cole]

Hi, sorry to bust in again...I have another heads up.

I just wanted to let you know, with the very kind help of StillShimpy, we figured out how to keep the Unsullied going in way that helps both the mod team and the Unsullied. Part of that is moving the Unsullied area before S04.E02, but it's not going far.

We will move The Unsullied to a Game Of Thrones subforum. So if at some point you suddenly can't find this topic, look for a subforum link inside the Game Of Thrones forum, above the topic list.

Nothing material is changing and I think it's going to be kind of cool. It will help clear up the Bookwalker / Showwatcher / Unsullied spoiler policy confusion and reduce the reports.

http://i.imgur.com/7DzDe8f.png

[MickleThePickle]

I hope the smaller of the two new swords is for Tyrion. With Jamie sticking with the Kings Guard, Tywin needs an heir to Casterly Rock, right? Whoever it goes to, I want both swords reunited with the Starks one day.

The Doom of Valyria... Sounds bad. Is Dany is anywhere around Valyria? Besides making great steel and some Doom-y event, do we know anything else about this place? It comes up frequently enough that it probably ties in somehow. Perhaps Dany and Co. will swing through on their "attack every city on the continent tour". I'm a little restless with this storyline, apparently, but this next city, Mereen (?) might be a notch up on the evil meter. Could be fun.

The Fool and Sansa sequence, for me, felt like it put her on the path towards becoming something more than a victim. Perhaps we see her start playing the game now. Everyone would surely underestimate her to an extreme degree, leaving ample opportunity to strike one for the good guys.

Lastly, I wonder if the Wildlings and Nights Watch can form an alliance with the white walkers coming. Jon's Dances with Wolves experience might have given him the insight to question why, exactly, they are about to slaughter each other. They seem like two feuding siblings who have been fighting so long they may have forgotten why they even started. I guess cannibals are kinda bad but Ygritte and the gang seem like decent folks.

Edited April 10, 2014 by MickleThePickle

[Chris Ashe]

My thoughts on Dany's long journey in the east and when she will return to the seven kingdoms...thinking back to the last episode of season two and her visions in the House of the Undying remember that she comes so close to the throne but doesn't get to touch it which I think is almost literal in it's meaning. Both her and Stannis are not political players but strong commanders who act with force and overwhelm their enemies and I almost get the feeling that by the time either of them arrive to the throne that politics will be the last thought on anyone's mind, it will be pure survival in the long night.

So building on that premise, I predict Dany will not return to Westeros until the long night is either upon the seven kingdoms or threatening it.

And where Dany moves from her prime motivation to free slaves because she was essentially one to her brother, I feel that Stannis too is so stern and uncompromising because of the way he was treated in the past. To see them come head to head would be interesting in the least. And furthermore they are shown as major players at this point in time but I suspect it's really Jon and Bran who will play the end game so to speak.