Completely Unspoiled Speculation Thread

[Snowblack]

I can't imagine a fair trial.  Tywin has his mind made up.  Why he would think Tyrion did it is beyond me, but that seems to be the case.  And Margaery's father has a limp noodle for a spine.  I can't conceive of him standing up to Tywin.  Maybe his cooperation will ensure that Margaery will get to marry Tommen. Who knows.  But it looks grim.

[stillshimpy]

I'm confident that Tyrion will get out of this mess somehow, maybe Sansa will actually figure out  way to help him?  

 

 

 

I've thought it through, and it's the only combination of conspirators that makes sense.

 

Agreed, but I have come to accept that A Show just doesn't really go for the "makes sense!" in the assassination department.   Apparently Olenna couldn't figure out a good way to off Joffrey, so she and Littlefinger got their silly on together for it.  

 

The only good thing about that is perhaps Olenna will actually try to figure out a way to help Tyrion? 

 

Annnnnnddddd....yeah, that's how Mace might end up voting against Tywin's wishes, right?  Olenna won't want Tyrion to die for this and Oberyn and Mace will actually out vote Tywin, perhaps?   

Edited April 28, 2014 by stillshimpy

[ChocButterfly]

The only good thing about that is perhaps Olenna will actually try to figure out a way to help Tyrion?

 

Annnnnnddddd....yeah, that's how Mace might end up voting against Tywin's wishes, right?  Olenna won't want Tyrion to die for this and Oberyn and Mace will actually out vote Tywin, perhaps?

 

Nah. Didn't you hear Olyna's stories from when she was young? I don't think Olynna gives a rat's ass about Tyrion, and even if she does, she wouldn't lift a finger to help him. The only one who could help Tyrion scape is Jaimie. That's the only way I see Tyrion getting saved from being executed and that's what I think will happen. Even though, I believe Jaimie is trying to catch Sansa for his sister. But Jaimie doesn't care about Sansa, he does care about Tyrion. So far he's being a terrible brother, but I hope he snaps out of it.

Edited April 28, 2014 by ChocButterfly

[90PercentGravity]

Apparently Olenna couldn't figure out a good way to off Joffrey, so she and Littlefinger got their silly on together for it.

 

Seriously. Dear Olenna, you could hide a 3-month-old in that hat, but you didn't think to pop a vial of nightshade in there. We know from when Cersei wanted to poison her and Tommen that a vial of nightshade with enough strength to poison TWO people is a lot smaller than a 3-month-old.

[Snowblack]

Annnnnnddddd....yeah, that's how Mace might end up voting against Tywin's wishes, right?  Olenna won't want Tyrion to die for this and Oberyn and Mace will actually out vote Tywin, perhaps?   

 

Oh please let that be true.  I don't have much hope that Olenna will do anything to fix the mess she created, but I can dream, can't I?  I think Tyrion will find a way out of this, but I thought that with Ned too. 

 

So when are we going to see Yara and her merry band of pirates?  I'm surprised that we're nearly halfway through the season, and the only Greyjoy we've seen is Theon/Reek. 

 

And I thought Stannis was interested in heading off the threat in the north, yet he has spent his screentime thus far concerned once again with becoming king rather than the larger threat.  The end of last season was really misleading if we're just going to have another season of Stannis brooding in his castle. 

[DirewolfPup]

While the WW reveal with the babies was interesting, I still don't really get why that's important. Okay. You have hoards of undead baby boys. What exactly can you do with zombabies?  Do they still grow up into big man zombies? That seems like a lot of travel and work only to get a 8 lb sack dead baby. Maybe baby boys are the best ammo for the new trebuchet they're building.

[stillshimpy]

Seriously. Dear Olenna, you could hide a 3-month-old in that hat, but you didn't think to pop a vial of nightshade in there. We know from when Cersei wanted to poison her and Tommen that a vial of nightshade with enough strength to poison TWO people is a lot smaller than a 3-month-old.

 

Plus, it's even better than that.  We know Jon Arryn "died of a fever" so not only was that whole thing just laughable, apparently there are poisons that won't make it Obvious From Space that a murder has occurred.  Why not just make him "die of a fever"?  Basically because it was a plot point already used, I'm guessing.  Ah well, the goofy constraints of fiction, I suppose.  

 

Also, a 3-month-old and his or her layette could hide in any of the various garments.  Possibly a cradle too.  Hell, a couple of Cersei's first season dresses could have concealed an entire nanny.    

Edited April 28, 2014 by stillshimpy

[stillshimpy]

While the WW reveal with the babies was interesting, I still don't really get why that's important. Okay. You have hoards of undead baby boys. What exactly can you do with zombabies?  Do they still grow up into big man zombies? That seems like a lot of travel and work only to get a 8 lb sack dead baby. Maybe baby boys are the best ammo for the new trebuchet they're building.

 

I think the babies actually grow into the White Walkers that we see wandering around (slowly, always slowly on horses that decompose and recompose apparently) and probably do so quite rapidly.  

 

But the hell of the "Okay, so all those freaking White Walkers are actually the sons of Craster.  Hey, I knew he sucked, but this is beyond the pale, really.  I'm assuming they don't take all that time to grow up though, they just resisted showing the Soap Opera Rapid Aging for fear that it would look goofy.  Goofier.  Goofier still, okay? 

 

So it does raise the question, at mini frozen Stonehenge do the Buffy Escapees who turn the babies into the future Bark-skinned commanders of the undead army are they the freaking White Walkers and the Undead Bark-skinned Commanders (The Sons of Craster, like a biker gang?) are...drill sergeants for the undead? 

 

Also, do they just stand around in a line like that, waiting for the Sons of Craster to bring a fresh son of Craster?  Or do they hang out in an ice palace, or what the fuck?  Also, who tailors their suits?  So were they what was sleeping beneath the ice?  

[90PercentGravity]

So... am I the only one who now thinks that Adalind's baby on GRIMM is a White Walker (White Crawler?).

[DirewolfPup]

Do these babies get to become WW because they're baby boys or because they're Craster's baby boys? WW exist now because of Craster and his baby gifts. Or they could have sprung out of the ice (like daisies!) and this transaction is just escalating how quickly they're populating.

 

A Show kept reminding us that these are Craster's babies. This is the last baby boy that was Crasters (I guess around 9 months has past since the mutiny... damn you timeline). I'm looking forward to the repercussions to the mutineers for ending this baby offering.

[stillshimpy]

Can I just randomly add that I wanted to leap off of something tall for a moment when freaking Locke ended up headed towards Bran Stark , basically just in time for Bran Stark to have declared "I am Brandon Stark of Winterfell."  

 

I don't blame poor freaking Bran.  At the end of the day, he's just a kid who took a really bad fall and who lost his entire family.  He's compassionate enough that he's trying to roll forward in the North towards extreme levels of Yuck and Scary to try and save everyone else.  Of course he'd spill his identity rather than watch anyone else hurt. 

 

Still....gggggaaaaaaaaaahhh and blech.  Great.  Marvelous.  Oh just frakking spiffy.  Here comes Locke to try and deadify poor Bran.  Also, Locke reminds me WAY too much of The Six Fingered Man from The Princess Bride.  I keep expecting someone to tell him about dead fathers and urging him to prepare to die.  

[ChocButterfly]

Seriously. Dear Olenna, you could hide a 3-month-old in that hat, but you didn't think to pop a vial of nightshade in there. We know from when Cersei wanted to poison her and Tommen that a vial of nightshade with enough strength to poison TWO people is a lot smaller than a 3-month-old.

 

I don't understand the baby thing. Is this something that happened in an earlier episode or is an old joke?

 

According to Ned or the master that died at Winterfell, I don't remember, WW were either a myth or some ancient race that disappeared thousands of years ago. Apparently only Wildings believed they existed at the beginning, now I assume at least the Night's Watch do  as well. So we know WW don't all come from Craster's babies. Maybe that's how they all came to be at the beginning, some weird snow demon stealing human babies and turning them into these beings? Maybe WW steal other Wildings babies, who knows. Does that mean there are no female WW? Don't they reproduce like humans? Do they have a city beyond that Stonehenge thing or do they live under the snow??

[90PercentGravity]

I don't understand the baby thing. Is this something that happened in an earlier episode or is an old joke?

I was just being hyperbolic.

[Glory]

Still....gggggaaaaaaaaaahhh and blech.  Great.  Marvelous.  Oh just frakking spiffy.  Here comes Locke to try and deadify poor Bran.  Also, Locke reminds me WAY too much of The Six Fingered Man from The Princess Bride.  I keep expecting someone to tell him about dead fathers and urging him to prepare to die.  

Haha! I thought I was the only one!

I didn't recognize him though, and my husband had to remind me of what he'd done.

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

Also, Locke reminds me WAY too much of The Six Fingered Man from The Princess Bride.

 

Glad it's not just me! but I looked and it's not actually the same guy...

 

OK I'm going to guess that ANY baby can be turned into a WW, not just Craster's, Craster was just handing them over to keep his Keep from being attacked. THey probably don't have to be males, either, but the males were expendable to Craster, whereas the females were not because they could cook/clean/produce more babies for sacrificing. The more daughters, the more males he can ultimately offer up, but if he gave away his daughters too he'd have no new "wives". *squick*

[90PercentGravity]

He reminds of that actor one... Gary something? He was in Office Space.

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, there's no question that it isn't the same actor as the Six Fingered Man...because Christopher Guest played that role and it was more then twenty-five years ago.  Although, for a long time, Chris Sarandon (Humperdink) didn't age at all (it was borderline creepy, I think he has a weathered portrait stuffed in a closet somewhere that does his aging for him), Guest has aged.  

 

I was just being silly.  It is my way.  

Edited April 28, 2014 by stillshimpy

[MrMicrophone]

As to why the "O God Poison!" instead of the "A Fever"

1) Joff's still capable of sex (and other horrors) while under the effects of a slow acting poison. Margaery had to be still viewable (publically) as a virgin, didn't she?

2) Structurally, the writers wanted this one to be blatant. It sets up a murder whodunnit (two weeks!), and we get to see Cercei AND Jaime near Joff.

3) Olenna undoubtedly meant the blame to fall on Sansa, who would be spirited away.

[stillshimpy]

) Joff's still capable of sex (and other horrors) while under the effects of a slow acting poison. Margaery had to be still viewable (publically) as a virgin, didn't she?

 

Right, but there's no reason on God's green and verdant Earth that it needed to be done at the wedding reception. 

 

I do agree, the writers wanted this one to be blatant and horrible, to set up Tyrion's story (and Sansa's and Jaime's and...pretty much the entire King's Landing arc, as far as I can tell), but that doesn't change that it is really a fairly obvious fictional construct in the world where Tears of Lys have been employed before.  Unless the Lannisters spent the last few years developing an immunity to Tears of Lys (Princess Bride on the brain!)

[MrMicrophone]

shimp,

Aha! that's what olenna gets out of it!

She gets to escape scot-free, by having someone convenient to blame!

 

A slower acting poison, or one not at the wedding reception, might lead

people to be more suspicious of the Tyrells.

 

Immunity to poisons is Cheating! (well, at least if you aren't a poisoner yourself.)

Edited April 28, 2014 by MrMicrophone

[DemosthenesKey]

Speaking of murder (murder? MURDER!) most foul, such as it is:

 

Margaery and Tommen. I aw-ed with all the rest of my Spitball Wall Brethren (and Sistren, of course) at his Ser Pounce (and am definitely naming my next cat that, God willing) but there was a little spitball niggle in the back of my mind that someday Tommen will not be at all who Cersei thought he would be because of this. That someday she'll give an order to hang this one or kill that one and Tommen will look at his Queen instead of her and tell her, "No, mother."

That's probably too good for Game of Thrones, though, but it gives me hope.

(And as my requisite dirty-minded remark - I'm betting Tommen was quite appreciative of that talk on the Birds and the Bees and Why You Need a Queen talk Tywin gave him last week. I have a thing for Margaery, okay?? Fictional characters, I tell you...)

[stillshimpy]

Speaking of murder (murder? MURDER!) most foul, such as it is:

 

Okay, so that made me laugh out loud.  For some reason it made me think of Murder by Death. 

 

Again, MrMicrophone, part of what makes it a goofier than hell plot is that there was no way on the aforementioned orbiting sphere that Olenna could have known that Joffrey would get his sadism on at that particular moment and force Tyrion to be his cup bearer.  

 

I was just telling a bunch of people this, but the plot only hangs together for those brief, gobsmacking, "HOLY SHIT, DID THEY JUST KILL JOFFREY???" moments.  So in the original completely out of left field moment of "The world's most horrid boy King has gotten married, joy.  I hope to God we don't have to witness his idea of a wedding night.  He'll probably club orphans to death as an aphrodisiac followed up by some infant punting to really get him in the mood.  Great, he's cleaving doves now and....what the....wha....OH MY GOD, tell me it is so! Tell me we are free!" 

 

But it shouldn't have gone down like that.  In fact, the entire, "Run away with me Sansa!" of Dontos appearance at her side shouldn't really have worked because Tyrion should have been sitting right there beside her, staring in equal "ZOMG, did he just perish? Revenge of the Doves! This is what sounds like when my heart cheers!"  

 

So she wasn't setting up Tryion, because no one could have called the entire "Bring me my wine" thing.  

[MrMicrophone]

shimp,

Might it be profitable to think about how this was supposed to go down, with Joff acting less like a jerky jerk jerk?

[stillshimpy]

I've been trying to do just that, MrMicrophone and it wouldn't have cleared Olenna of suspicion.  It would have most likely implicated a servant, but if Sansa hadn't decided to run with Dontos, it seems like Sansa would have been the one being thrown in a dungeon.  

 

So I have no idea why Olenna would want Sansa to look guilty as hell when there was no guarantee that she was going to actually get away.   I mean, clearly Olenna has some "might as well murder him" psychosis going on and she just sent her full grown woman granddaughter in to seduce a boy who has barely hit puberty (and he and Sansa must have been aging in different universes, because only about a year and a half has passed for her whereas Tommen went from being around Rickon's age to ....whatever age he is meant to be now....for the sake of my sanity I'll just say he's fourteen now , because, what the hell? Why not), but I can't see her trying to get Sansa actually killed...and whereas Cersei might have still gone nuts and accused Tyrion, he'd have been sitting there with no demonstrable access to the damned wine in the first place.  

Edited April 28, 2014 by stillshimpy

[Glory]

Ah! And if Sansa and Tyrion had left dinner when she asked the first time, there would have been no one for Dontos to abscond with!

[abelard]

Jumping in with this spec about Danerys's next moves:

 

 

What if Dany heads to Volantis next?  Others have specc'd that she will get to Volantis eventually, since we know from Talisa that Volantis is a major slave city.  I think Volantis is also the place that Shae boarded her boat for Westeros when she was 13 (or whatever her story was, that she was on the brink of telling Cersei during the Blackwater siege).  So...if Dany conquers Volantis next, then she could conceivably run into Talisa's family (one of the ruling houses maybe?  Talisa was for sure highborn) and potentially into Shae as well, maybe?

[90PercentGravity]

I think Shae is Pentos-bound. Though, I suppose it is possible that Pentos and Volantis are neighbors and Shae hops on over to there.

 

Dany has always been one of my favorite characters, but I'm bored with this chain breaker story. If she is to concur any more slave cities, could we just skip over it and throw out a bit of expository dialogue when necessary? I think this may be one of those cases where telling > showing.

[stillshimpy]

Dany has always been one of my favorite characters, but I'm bored with this chain breaker story. If she is to concur any more slave cities, could we just skip over it and throw out a bit of expository dialogue when necessary? I think this may be one of those cases where telling > showing.

 

I'd be down with that.  Also, I have to admit that his "Kill the Masters" graffiti scene came off as overly cinematic and kind of cheesy.  Half the city converges on this one dude (oh maybe he was the ...mayor...or whatever the position of authority might be called?)  and all make with the stabbing motions, which I know I have a dark sense of humor, but I did sort of crack up at the "Okay, y'all are just going to stab your fellow liberated slaves, you know."  

 

But yes, I think we've actually seen enough character development.  Got it.  Check.  Dany: Breaker of Chains.  Not going to be showing mercy.  Has her vengeance on.   I don't really need more "Mother!" scenes to pick up on where she's at with her character trajectory.   She did seem to approve of Grey Worm and the Great Translator (name escapes me, pretty girl that Grey Worm clearly likes) having a very sweet flirt session, which was Dany's most human moment in a long time. 

 

It's just I really could do without a travel log of all the places Dany frees.  

 

I completely forgot about Shae! Hooray, maybe that means she got the hell away?  She hasn't turned up yet.  She thankfully apparently isn't on LF's ship.  

 

Also, in yet another "Oh for god's sake, really?" moment involving this show.  Avoid Yahoo's homepage, guys.   

[Skywarpgold]

Just popping in to ask everyone to please review the new addition to our Questions and Proclamations thread. Thanks so much!

[abelard]

I agree, shimpy and 90%, that Dany's story is boring as pigs**t these days, and that is why I think she *has* to encounter some other characters soon.  I think Shae is the most likely one to be folded into Dany's entourage.  I also think it would be cool if we got to see Volantis, which we've heard so much about, but then again, I'd rather we get to see Braavos, home of the Iron Bank, First Swords, and face-changing badass assassins.  I agree that she cannot just keep going from one city to the next, winning, winning, winning.  Winning all the time is not what this show is about, obvs!!!

[WhiteStumbler]

abelard: Braavos is probably my first choice, with the Summer Isles a close second.

 

Varys: "In the Summer Isles, they worship the fertility goddess with sixteen teats."

[abelard]

Summer Isles a close second.

 

Varys: "In the Summer Isles, they worship the fertility goddess with sixteen teats."

 

Hmm...and we know that Grey Worm is from there...and wasn't Messandi (sp? too lazy to look at the character list, sorry) just telling him that he could/should go back there one day?  It sounds to me like Messandi's home (Narth?  close to Brienne's Tarth, perhaps?) is sort of...toast, but the Summer Isles are still a going concern.  I had forgotten Varys's line about the fertility goddess, it would be awesome if the props department had to build a giant statue of that!!!!  HBO has let a lot of things go on screen in this show but I dunno about sixteen teats!!!!!

 

Oh also I have been meaning to spec or do some interpretation about GoT's kingdoms' relation to real-world things:

 

-Lannisters = England

-Starks (and other Northern Houses: Umbers for example) = Scotland

-Tyrells = France (look at their signature blue!)

-Martells (from Dorne) = Spain (listen to the Inigo Montoya accent!!)

 

It's not a perfect match -- who the f**k are the Greyjoys supposed to represent? Also, who are the Irish? -- but I just feel like some of the cultural differences are shaping up this way.  Lannisters are aristocratic snobs who are more vicious, cruel, and immoral than anyone, but they look the part of royalty.  Starks are righteous, from the North, hold onto their ways and won't be assimilated into Southern culture/religion, brave warriors, viewed as barbaric as others, willing to openly rebel against Lannisters (England).  Tyrells are more elegant/refined than the Lannisters, know how to have a good time, appreciate beauty and aesthetics more, don't get all pearl-clutchy about sex and sexual matters, in fact use sex to get what they want along with a lot of other sneaky tricks, like the color blue.  Martells are from way more south than where Lannisters are from, have an even better time than the Tyrells, are darker in coloring, are hot-blooded in bed and in matters of violence (like when they want revenge -- this is an assumption since we haven't seen Prince Oberyn actually take revenge yet), have an even broader range of morality than the Tyrells.  

[ChocButterfly]

It's not a perfect match -- who the f**k are the Greyjoys supposed to represent?

Vikings? With their whole God of the sea and their boats and pillaging it fits them well.

 

Also, I have to admit that his "Kill the Masters" graffiti scene came off as overly cinematic and kind of cheesy.

In addition to that, how stupid is that the sign was in English or whatever language is that they're supposed to speak in Westeros. Mereen has another language (Valeryan too?), we have seen them speaking in that other tongue, so how come they wrote that shit in English and why would they even be able to read it? Heh.

 

 

I was thinking about Bran and Jon. I don't see how Bran can get out of his situation, unless Jon saves him, so maybe they'll finally run into each other? But with this show that seems so unlikely, so maybe Bran will warg into the wolves and attack the men. otherwise, how is he supposed to get out of that mess?

[Glory]

I was thinking about Bran and Jon. I don't see how Bran can get out of his situation, unless Jon saves him, so maybe they'll finally run into each other? But with this show that seems so unlikely, so maybe Bran will warg into the wolves and attack the men. otherwise, how is he supposed to get out of that mess?

Jon Snow said that Craster's was 60 miles away. How long would it take a group of the Night's Watch to get there? 

 

My spec is that Bran will somehow free himself and head north and Jon Snow will end up at Craster's right after he leaves. That would be in keeping with this show's "missed connections" type of themes. 

[stillshimpy]

I think that the sign was supposed to be in "The common tongue" , Choc Butterfly.  The scene at the start was -- I'm completely blanking on this character's name and am only coming up with "Menen" which seems really unlikely -- so Dany's off-manager former slave giving Grey Worm language lessons in "the common tongue".  We do know that "the common tongue" is represented as English.  

 

When Grey Worm brought the slaves a grab bag of weapons, he spoke to them in "the common tongue" so I guess that's what was spoken in Mereen.  

 

Although, since I distinctly remember Dany yelling in that made up language last episode before launching the cut collar bombs (no good word for that, really) it would seem that it is possible that "made up language" is the language of the "masters" and slaves speak "the common tongue" ?  Or is it the other way around?  Not sure, but that was one thing I didn't take issue with, mainly because I was laughing my butt off at the two armed guards practically vaporizing in the face of the slave mobs.  Those dudes could not boogey away fast enough. 

[abelard]

 

 

QUOTE

It's not a perfect match -- who the f**k are the Greyjoys supposed to represent?

Vikings? With their whole God of the sea and their boats and pillaging it fits them well.

 Oh yeah.  Maybe.  It's weird b/c I'm watching the show Vikings and they're so triumphant there, and the Greyjoys are way down on their heels (although still effectively owning much of the North, it seems -- not for long perhaps, once Bolton gets his troops out there, but still, not defeated yet).

 

Although, since I distinctly remember Dany yelling in that made up language last episode before launching the cut collar bombs (no good word for that, really) it would seem that it is possible that "made up language" is the language of the "masters" and slaves speak "the common tongue" ?  Or is it the other way around?  Not sure, but that was one thing I didn't take issue with, mainly because I was laughing my butt off at the two armed guards practically vaporizing in the face of the slave mobs.  Those dudes could not boogey away fast enough.

 

 

Now that we saw that the slaves in Mereen speak the common tongue, it's pretty dumb that Dany made that big long speech in Valeryian.  *sigh*  This show usually does so well on the language thing (I thought all the uses of Dothraki were perfect), but sometimes it really just is not logical.  

[ChocButterfly]

I just know Dany was speaking to them in that other language, which I think it's the same one she used to buy the Unsullied, so it must be Valeryan, cuz she said so. I thought Grey Worm also spoke it to the slaves. So it's silly they wrote in the "common tongue". Oh, thanx for the common tongue reminder, shimpy. I wish they had chosen a more creative name for it.

 

60miles is about 96km. I walk (not run) at a pace of 6k/hour. That'd be about 2 days, maybe 2.5 as much. Let's say cuz it's snowy it takes them more, although they're supposed to be rangers, so you'd think they'd have more resistance than me, a sedentary woman. But it's 3 days, 4 tops. That's enough to meet Bran and company.

[abelard]

I thought Grey Worm also spoke it to the slaves. So it's silly they wrote in the "common tongue".

 

Oh thanks for reminding me.  So only the wall graffiti was ridiculously in the common tongue, but at least all the dialogue in Mereen was in Valeryian.

[izabella]

The scene at the start was -- I'm completely blanking on this character's name and am only coming up with "Menen" which seems really unlikely -- so Dany's off-manager former slave giving Grey Worm language lessons in "the common tongue".

 

Her name is Missandei.  I always think it sounds kind of like "Miss Sandy" when they say her name, which isn't often. 

[ChocButterfly]

Oh thanks for reminding me.  So only the wall graffiti was ridiculously in the common tongue, but at least all the dialogue in Mereen was in Valeryian.

 

 

Don't take my word on it, abelard! I might be misremembering as well, so maybe they did speak the common tongue. I'll have to watch the episode again.

[Snowblack]

I was thinking about Bran and Jon. I don't see how Bran can get out of his situation, unless Jon saves him, so maybe they'll finally run into each other? But with this show that seems so unlikely, so maybe Bran will warg into the wolves and attack the men. otherwise, how is he supposed to get out of that mess?

I'm hoping Uncle Benjen comes to save the day.  Too much to ask for, I know.  I think Bran warging into the wolves (or Hodor) is likely.  Jojen has taught Bran all he can, and I have the distinct feeling that he might not make it through this.  So that's my spitball.        

[Pallas]

Bran will warg his way out of this, surely, but warg who to do what?  

 

He can't free the wolves or Hodor, but we've seen him direct the wolves to attack, and put Hodor to sleep; Jojen marveled that Bran could warg a human.  Casting a sleep spell on the mutineers would be Disney-in-the-days-of-Disney-time.  Warging the mutineers to turn on each other would be Star-Trek-Classic-time. But what if he warg-emboldens the Craster sisters to attack the mutineers?  

 

Dany-of-the-North-time. 

[gingerella]

Bran will warg his way out of this, surely, but warg who to do what?

He can't free the wolves or Hodor, but we've seen him direct the wolves to attack, and put Hodor to sleep; Jojen marveled that Bran could warg a human. Casting a sleep spell on the mutineers would be Disney-in-the-days-of-Disney-time. Warging the mutineers to turn on each other would be Star-Trek-Classic-time. But what if he warg-emboldens the Craster sisters to attack the mutineers?

Dany-of-the-North-time.

Uh, Pallas? Given that A Show gave us a smoke baby and WWs, zomponies, and devil horned WWs...any of your above hypotheses could easily come to fruition. Just sayin'...It's gettin' all Its A Small World After All, up in heah, yo...*insert eye roll here* Edited April 29, 2014 by gingerella

[MrMicrophone]

abe,

Lannisters = Lancaster

Stark = York

Clearly we're in A War of the Roses territory.

 

Martells don't seem religious enough to be Spanish. Maybe Italian?

[Pallas]

Speaking of planted ideas, and roses.  What we know about Littlefinger/Tyrell and Littlefinger/Olenna alliances. 

 

1. Littlefinger supported Renly in the War of 5 Kings.
2. Conjecture: Before that, I suspect, Baelish induced The Knight of the Flowers to plant in Renly's head the idea of being King.  Do we think Loras came up with that notion himself?  
3. Conjecture: Littlefinger brokered the details of the formal alliance between Renly and the Tyrells, including the marriage of Renly to Margaery, after Renly and Loras left the city upon Robert's death and Ned's subsequent arrest.
4. After Ned's death (and not before?), Littlefinger was in Renly's camp. 
5. Conjecture: After Renly's death, Littlefinger...what?  Positioned himself to the Tyrells as being THEIR (and not Renly's) stalwart, counseled them not to panic and offered to broker a separate peace with the Lannisters.
6. Littlefinger brokers a separate peace between  the Tyrells and the Lannisters.
7. As a result of this alliance, the Lannister/Tyrells repel Stannis's forces at King's Landing
8. As a result of this victory, the Lannisters remain in possession of the crown,
9. As a further result of the alliance and its success, Loras Tyrell is not executed for treason, and Margaery Tyrell is betrothed to the Lannister King.
10. Up to this point, Littlefinger could be said to have proven himself an extremely nimble and able ally of House Tyrell.  Or, a rotten snake. It is here that the Lannisters also claim him as their own, with title and properties.
11. Once Margaery supplants Sansa as Joffrey's fiancee, Olenna arrives in town
12. Olenna interrogates Sansa over tea, and also receives Varys
13. Margaery proposes the idea to Sansa that she marry Loras: did we see Olenna directly commission this plan?  Did the original idea come from Varys?  
14. Glad days: lovely or sagacious ladies promenade in gardens......Littlefinger asks Sansa to accompany him to the Eyrie, and she refuses...  
15. ...Ah, but Loras spills the beans to Littlefinger's spy.
16. Littlefinger rats out his erstwhile Tyrell allies' plans to Tywin:
17. Tywin preemptively shifts the pieces (at Littlefinger's suggestion, again?): Sansa to Tyrion, Loras to Cersei
18. His job done here, it seems, Littlefinger sails off to the Eyrie.  Or at least his ship does.  
19. Conjecture: did Littlefinger approach Olenna with a new proposition, and then perhaps stay in town secretly to help execute it?
20. Conjecture: did Olenna approach Littlefinger, suspecting him of scuttling the Loras/Sansa deal, and, wanting to create a fall guy if her plot went south?

 

However it happened, Olenna and Littlefinger ended up as co-conspirators.  When did Littlefinger see that Olenna was the true power in the family -- or at least, the one who wanted Joffrey dead, and (unlike Cersei and her threats), had the steel to get it done?

 

And still: Why did Olenna need Littlefinger at all?  Is "Strangler" such a specialty item that Olenna needed Littlefinger's help to find a source in the capital, or to obliterate all trace to her?  But how does such a conversation get started? 

[DirewolfPup]

abe,

Lannisters = Lancaster

Stark = York

Clearly we're in A War of the Roses territory.

 

Martells don't seem religious enough to be Spanish. Maybe Italian?

Italy is extremely religious, too. It's that whole Vatican situation.  Perhaps more like the Greeks?

 

I really like abelard's post about who all the houses represent:

Lannisters are aristocratic snobs who are more vicious, cruel, and immoral than anyone, but they look the part of royalty.  Starks are righteous, from the North, hold onto their ways and won't be assimilated into Southern culture/religion, brave warriors, viewed as barbaric as others, willing to openly rebel against Lannisters (England).  Tyrells are more elegant/refined than the Lannisters, know how to have a good time, appreciate beauty and aesthetics more, don't get all pearl-clutchy about sex and sexual matters, in fact use sex to get what they want along with a lot of other sneaky tricks, like the color blue.

 

My British friend approves this assimilation. I'd also point out that the Lannisters also have the most wealth and control, which the British certainly had for hundreds of years.

[arry the orphan]

 

Littlefinger supported Renly in the War of 5 Kings.

 

I'd say no to that. Renly was probably the only of the 5 kings who knew LF well enough to not trust him (and certainly didn't like him). Tyrion sent Littlefinger to Renly's camp as part of a deception. The real goal was to offer Catelyn freedom for Sansa and Arya in exchange for Jamie (as Robb would've never accepted those terms). I believe Littlefingers offer to open the gates of KL for Renly was a trap for Renlys army (by Tyrion). When Renly died so suddenly, LF seized an opportunity and forged the Tyrell/Lannister alliance.

Edited April 29, 2014 by arry the orphan

[Pallas]

But I think the rough analogy is not family-to-lands, but country-to-lands.  So that the North is Scotland, Highgarden is France, Dorne is Mediterranean Spain...And the creator displays much greater familiarity and kinship with the European-based cultures than any other in his saga.

 

Why not?  We all come from somewhere.  It does become a bit of an issue, though, the longer two points of his five-protagonist compass remain stuck in the Far North and the East. 

[Anothermi]

Littlefinger supported Renly in the War of 5 Kings.

I'd say no to that.

 

Now you've got me trying to remember back to S01. 

 

When the shit started to hit the fan we had Renly taking Ned aside to try to get Ned to support his bid to become the next King.  Then Ned (being Ned) sends a "rider in the night" to Stannis informing him there are no legitimate Heirs to the throne, so he's IT.  Waiting outside the Hand's chamber is Littlefinger (who I was sure was going to suss out what was going on and have the "rider-in-the-night" killed enroute, but he actually missed that one) who came in to try to get Ned to support?? ... I forget.  Does anyone remember who?  I thought it was Renly at this point (because he would be more reasonable than Joffrey/Cersei). 

 

Anywhoo, Ned went all 'Ned' on LF who promptly slime'd his way around Ned promising the (City) Guard would be in the Red Keep at the appointed time and that he could guarantee Ned that they would follow whomever paid them.  Ned read this phrase as guilelessly as he did everything LF said after Catelyn said LF was and old and trusted friend.

 

ETA:

OOh.  I almost forgot!  The WW/baby scene in the WW "Temple" made me think on Melisandre's scene with Stannis' daughter where she says "there are only 2 Gods.  The Lord of Light and the (?) of Darkness."  I wonder if the WW are the Lords of Darkness (or his minions) in her faith?

 

However, if that is the case I find it ironic because the Lord of Light gets power by destroying people with fire while (my speculative) Lord of Darkness gets HIS by giving 'people' a NEW 'life'.

Edited April 29, 2014 by Anothermi

[abelard]

abe,

Lannisters = Lancaster

Stark = York

Clearly we're in A War of the Roses territory.

 

Martells don't seem religious enough to be Spanish. Maybe Italian?

Yeah there's definitely a War of the Roses thing going on.  But I still think that culturally, the Starks are way more Scottish than Yorkian.

 

The thing about Italians vs. Spanish for the Martells is that Spain had a lot to do with English politics all throughout the War of the Roses and Tudor era.  Italy, not so much.  I agree culturally it could go either way.

But I think the rough analogy is not family-to-lands, but country-to-lands.  So that the North is Scotland, Highgarden is France, Dorne is Mediterranean Spain...And the creator displays much greater familiarity and kinship with the European-based cultures than any other in his saga.

Why not?  We all come from somewhere.  It does become a bit of an issue, though, the longer two points of his five-protagonist compass remain stuck in the Far North and the East.

 

 

I agree that it is definitely country-to-lands but I think there are tropes about fashion, sexual mores, worldviews, ways of handling power, attitudes, lifestyles, etc. that the author and show are also flagging.  Of course it is all pretty vague and based on broad stereotypes, but I think it does a good job of making all the power struggles seem convincing to a modern viewer who has at least a passing knowledge of European history, because it all is reminiscent of real places, real wars, real cultural conflicts.  It doesn't have to map exactly to have that "reality effect."  I quite like the stereotypes being invoked, it's funny to think of the Tyrells (as France) and Martells (as Spain) secretly despising the Lannisters' (England's) food and wine.

 

Speaking of planted ideas, and roses.  What we know about Littlefinger/Tyrell and Littlefinger/Olenna alliances.

 

This was really great spec Pallas but I agree with Arry the O's read on the LF situation.  LF went from Renley's camp (where he went on Tyrion's bidding) to Tywin's table at Harrenhal, and on Tywin's orders negotiated the Tyrell/Lannister deal against Stannis.  But where/when was the deal made between Olenna and LF?  And did Olenna know that Sansa would be part of LF's "reward"?  And as Pallas asks, why did Olenna need LF at all?  Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.  Why did Olenna trust LF?  As a possible fall guy (as Pallas theorizes)?  It's strange, though those two are both master manipulators so I think there must be legit reasons...

 

OOh.  I almost forgot!  The WW/baby scene in the WW "Temple" made me think on Melisandre's scene with Stannis' daughter where she says "there are only 2 Gods.  The Lord of Light and the (?) of Darkness."  I wonder if the WW are the Lords of Darkness (or his minions) in her faith?

However, if that is the case I find it ironic because the Lord of Light gets power by destroying people with fire while (my speculative) Lord of Darkness gets HIS by giving 'people' a NEW 'life'.

 

This is interesting spec.  I definitely was surprised the WW "Lords" were as sentient and...refined as they were.  They are not mindless zombies.  It seems actually the only mindless minions are the humans-turned-wights.  The military leaders (the ones who lead the zombonies on their zomponies) have some intelligence/awareness.  But it seemed there was this other class of beings, the Lord WWs, who are the bosses of the military leaders.  Are they gods though (as in Lord of Darkness)?  They are certainly magical. 

Edited April 29, 2014 by abelard