The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

[benteen]

Damn, that was an epic chapter.

I had forgotten about the Hound crying at the end of the duel.

Still not a fan of the idea of duels determining guilt or innocence.  But it does make for great scenes.

[Avaleigh]

I didn't remember the Hound's wound being so severe and I didn't remember him crying, so I was pretty moved by that. He must have been terrified. It also made me wonder if Lysa would have permitted Bronn to be cared for at the Vale if he'd been injured. I'm guessing not so I say that's a point in favor of the brotherhood that they didn't hesitate to help him. I liked too how Beric removed his armor so that it would be fair. 

I can understand why Arya thinks that the gods don't seem to have given a shit about what happened to Mycah. Her frustration with everything in this chapter is so understandable. She knows for a fact that this guy has murdered an innocent person, she's reminded of Sansa's lie, and she has to listen to him remind her about how he was one of many who stood by and watched as her father's head was cut off. Plus, in general she's constantly being manhandled by people so I'm sure that doesn't help in terms of her frustration level. 

Not sure what to make of how Beric made the sword light up after cutting himself. 

[Lady S.]

25 minutes ago, Avaleigh said:

Not sure what to make of how Beric made the sword light up after cutting himself. 

I really want Jon to learn to do that now that he's had a Red God resurrection. A flaming Valyrian steel sword would be the only weapon to destroy both wights and White Walkers. I'm also intrigued by all the weirwood roots in Beric's cave, just like Bloodraven's, and I'm anticipating Bran having visions of his undead mother at some point. 

No way Lysa would have provided medical care for Bronn. She was basically trying to kill him and Tyrion in a different way by sending them off on the High Road on their own. Sending them to the harbor at Gulltown would have been a more efficient journey as well as a safer one. 

You can really see the seeds of what the BwB becomes under Stoneheart here with the way they're willing to blame Sandor for all the Lannister war crimes and for being Gregor's brother. I think they would have made him fight a duel even if Arya hadn't provided a crime he was actually guilty of. We don't know what crimes you're guilty of, Red Rahloo knows, let the LoL decide what to do with you seems to be their thinking here. Thoros bringing up Rhaegar's children stands out since a) living at court he would have known the Cleganes hated each other and he, Beric, and Anguy likely witnessed their tourney fight and b) if Thoros was there when the kids' corpses were presented to Robert then he was also witness to Robert's "dragonspawn' reaction yet that didn't stop him from becoming Bobby's drinking buddy and staying loyal to his name even after his death. The others lost some relative, neighbor, or comrade-in-arms, want someone to answer for it and assume all these evil enemies are the same, but Thoros knows better. The big difference is that the common people are the driving force here of the BwB, not Beric's mission against Gregor and his Lannister master. The men of the BwB must bring their families to live in the Hollow Hill for Arya to see women and children there. I don't remember that being true in Brienne's time there. They brag about fighting Lannister knights, Bolton men, Karstark men, and the Bloody Mummers, men whose only relevant commonality is their crimes against the Riverlanders. Under UnCat, their mission is based around her vengeance and it just so happens that the people left in charge to terrorize the riverlands are UnCat's personal enemies. Given that Brienne doesn't hear about them directing food to people, the non-Frey/Lannister things they've done, like Gendry running the orphanage at the Crossroads Inn and the BwB hanging those thought to be guilty of the Saltpans atrocities, were probably byproducts of their loyalty to UnCat/search for Arya rather than done purely for the sake of the common people. (The orphanage could have been started so that Gendry could find a specific orphaned Stark girl and Saltpans happened to be where Arya's trail in Westeros ended.)

OTOH, while Sandor makes a lot of good points about the hypocrisy and dishonesty of knights in general and the knights of the hollow hill in particular, he's not exactly as innocent as Podrick Payne. We know he did kill Mycah, and he told Sansa that he'd killed other children and women. He's not a rapist or torturer like his brother but he probably racked up quite the body count of non-battle casualties in his 15 years as a loyal Lannister dog. And I think he should have stopped his defense at saying he was under orders and it wasn't his place to question his master. Even if he genuinely believed Sansa supported Joffrey's account--which she didn't, but he wasn't there to witness it--that had nothing to do with him killing Mycah since he was off on his hunt days before that interrogation and Mycah was dead that very night. I doubt he would have ever actually believed Joffrey was the victim no matter what anyone said as he should have known the little shit too well for that. (Sidenote, someone wondered why there wasn't a QoLaB at the Hand's tourney and I think Sandor's thoughts on knighthood provide an answer. He was the champion there but he wouldn't have much interest in the frilly aspects, he was just there to fight people. And as he won by saving Loras and having Loras declare him the winner instead of the two of them jousting, there probably wasn't any pressure on him to name a QoLaB when everyone was caught up in the excitement and just had their thoughts on the unusual circumstances.)

[WearyTraveler]

I'm the worst!  During this re-read I finished the book way before time.  Then, a few chapters ago, I decided to start at the chapter that @Avaleigh had posted last, and I did it again (read all the way through the end)!

So, I went back to this chapter and started from there (again) before reading Avaleigh's summary.  I also downloaded a bunch of books to resist the temptation of reading ahead a third time (by the time we end this re-read, I'll know the book by heart, LOL!).  One more time, kudos on a great summary!

I highlighted the same Thoros phrase quoted in the summary, perhaps because I have recently read a bunch of theories about the origin of the Walkers that either sprouted because of what was on the show or existed before and their proponents felt the show had unofficially confirmed them.  I've made the argument that, while possible, I don't get the feeling from the books that it will play that way, but it's difficult during the discussions to remember everything that the books say to support that.  Partly because it's peppered throughout with small comments like the one Thoros made here.  I know my read is that these forces are primal, ancient and that they have been at war way before the CotF were around (maybe the story in the books will not be that the Children made the Walkers, but perhaps that they accelerated/helped their awakening that one time; sort of like making a deal with the devil), but I can't pinpoint to all the specific events/passages that make me see it that way.

The Hound crying is shocking, because his character has never given any hints of expressing emotions through tears; so, it's very effective to see him broken down to that point.  Fire does terrify him more than anything in the world.

I remember feeling Arya's anger and frustration upon first read, and now that I think about it, the way the sisters are written, perhaps Arya has the best narrative structure, and that's why so many prefer her to Sansa.  She's accepted the reality around her way sooner than Sansa did.  I get the feeling that, had it been Sansa witnessing this duel, a part of her would still be hoping that the true knight would be victorious.  Meanwhile, as soon as she heard "trial by combat", Arya lost all hope (her inner monolog is: "The Hound is deadly with a sword").  She has no illusions that it will go her way, and this is even before the Red Wedding shatters her even more.

The way the story is told, Arya is not even partly responsible for the shit that happens to her.  She tries to escape and is caught, she spots the liars and the lies quite quickly, and is always overpowered because she's small. Meanwhile, up until LF tells Sansa that it was Olenna who poisoned Joeffrey, she was being played left and right (even her rescuer was playing her), and it could be argued that because she blabbed to Cersei about Ned's plans, she contributed to her current circumstances.  Sansa is written as a victim who wants a saviour, while Arya is written as a victim trying to save herself.

Edited September 12, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[nodorothyparker]

This is such a terrific chapter.  I love Beric reintroducing himself by referring to the man that he was setting out on Ned's orders to bring justice to the Mountain as "a fool in a starry cloak."  They say they're still Robert's men, but the king they served is dead and a king spawned from their declared enemy sits in his place.  So what now?  You can really see how everything has become so twisted and corrupted for them, how the Brotherhood as it will exist under Stoneheart is being born from their own "the man breaks" moment.

There's a lot of great dialogue here about the names of the dead who don't really mean anything except to the people who lost them and the pretty veneer of knighthood that again makes me wish we'd gotten at least one conversation on the subject somewhere in the series that included both the Hound and Jaime.  The Brotherhood is willing to paint with a fairly broad brush in that oh you're a member of a house that is sworn to a larger house whose soldiers did these terrible things in war so you're personally responsible for all them even if you weren't actually involved.  Thoros has been to court under Robert and to war before in the Greyjoy rebellion.  He's drank and feasted with many of the players.  He knows how this all works.  He knows that the Hound and the Mountain are not the same person and not on good terms.

Arya clinging so hard to the ideal that the truth actually matters to these people or even in the larger context could be seen as childish naivety, since she is still in fact a child, or just another example of her utter Starkness that's at turns gotten the rest of her family in trouble.  Yeah, she's better at seeing through the crap than Sansa may ever be, but she's not getting that none of Brotherhood seem to truly care whether the Hound actually killed Mycah or anyone else.  They're just looking for an excuse that has at least a shred of credibility.

I didn't remember the Hound being so badly injured either, but his original burn injuries in the book seem to be worse than they are in the show too.  We know he rightly has a lot of issues where fire is concerned.

I'm interested in what intersection may exist between the weirwood roots and magic of the red god since we see both in this chapter.  

Edited September 12, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Constantinople]

On 9/12/2016 at 3:55 AM, Lady S. said:

Thoros bringing up Rhaegar's children stands out since a) living at court he would have known the Cleganes hated each other and he, Beric, and Anguy likely witnessed their tourney fight and b) if Thoros was there when the kids' corpses were presented to Robert then he was also witness to Robert's "dragonspawn' reaction yet that didn't stop him from becoming Bobby's drinking buddy and staying loyal to his name even after his death.

That'a good point.

They get around it in the show by suggesting that Thoros didn't appear in Westeros until after Robert became King.

From The Climb, Season 3 Episode 6, in a scene which does not take place in the books, when Thoros and Melisandre are chatting away in Valyrian

Quote

 

Melisandre: Valar morghulis

Thoros: Valar dohaeris

Thoros: I don't see many priestesses of R'hollor in the Riverlands.

Melisandre: You are Thoros of Myr.

Thoros (nods acknowledgement)

Melisandre: The High Priest gave you a mission.  Turn King Robert away from his idols and towards the Lord of Light.  What happened?

Thoros: I failed

 

So TVThoros, unlike BookThoros, may not have heard Robert's comments after being presented with the corpses of Rhaegar's children.

Of course, that raises the question why the TV High Priest would have thought TVRobert would be susceptible to conversion given that he won the throne without the LoL's help.  IIRC, BookThoros was sent to convert fire obsessed Aerys to a fire god.  It sounds as if he just stuck around to make the best of a bad situation.

[Lady S.]

12 hours ago, Constantinople said:

That'a good point.

They get around it in the show by suggesting that Thoros didn't appear in Westeros until after Robert became King.

From The Climb, Season 3 Episode 6, in a scene which does not take place in the books, when Thoros and Melisandre are chatting away in Valyrian

So TVThoros, unlike BookThoros, may not have heard Robert's comments after being presented with the corpses of Rhaegar's children.

Of course, that raises the question why the TV High Priest would have thought TVRobert would be susceptible to conversion given that he won the throne without the LoL's help.  IIRC, BookThoros was sent to convert fire obsessed Aerys to a fire god.  It sounds as if he just stuck around to make the best of a bad situation.

Actually the show did had that line when Melly met Thoros in 3.06, but the line about being there to see the corpses of Rhaegar's children was included when Sandor reached the cave in 3.04. It's possible Mel was mistaken about which king he was first sent to convert and Thoros didn't bother to correct her. And in that event, it's plausible that TV Thoros was sent to convert Aerys but by the time he got there the Rebellion was already going on and, being a bad priest, Thoros decided he'd rather hang out with Robert and fight for the rebels. But the show does nothing to reconcile all that so I assume it was just a slip-up by the writers, or as the 3.06 scene was in HV it could have been that using Robert's name in the subtitles was a slip-up in the English-to HV-to English subtitles process. 

Edited September 14, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn IV

Hoster Tully has died and seven men are chosen to push his funeral boat out into the water including Robb, the Lords Bracken, Blackwood, Vance, and Mallister plus, Ser Marq Piper and Lame Lothar Frey. Edmure is all angry that Lord Frey has sent his bastard Walder Rivers and Lothar to treat with them and thinks that it's insulting that Lord Frey has deliberately sent a cripple and a bastard. Catelyn agrees that Lord Frey is being petty but reminds her brother to remember who they're dealing with and mentions that their father used call old Walder the Late Lord Frey. Catelyn is grateful that Robb has treated the Freys with every courtesy and even asked Ser Gresmond Dell to stand aside so that Lothar could participate in sending Hoster off. Catelyn thinks about how Robb is wise beyond his years and thinks that he's smart to placate the most powerful of Riverrun's bannermen. 

As the men push Hoster off, Catelyn thinks about how Bran and Rickon will be waiting for him. Edmure tries three times but fails to hit the boat with a fire arrow, so the Blackfish has to step in and just manages to hit the target in time. Catelyn tries to grab her brother's hand but he moves away to stand alone, so the Blackfish ends up taking her hand instead. 

The Blackfish says that isn't a disgrace to miss a shot and points out that Hoster once missed when he had to do the same when their father died. Catelyn is familiar with the story and brings up the fact that her father still managed to hit the target on his second try. She thinks that Edmure isn't as strong as he seems and knows that he's taking the death of their father hard. The night before, Edmure got drunk and cried about what a mistake it was for him to ride off and fight his battle at the fords. He regrets not staying by his father's side and thinks that he should have behaved as Catelyn did. Edmure asks Catelyn if their father spoke about him at all before he died and Catelyn lies to her brother by telling him that their father whispered his name. Catelyn thinks about how her father's last word was 'Tansy' and how Lysa never replied to her letter. 

There hasn't been any word from King's Landing but Catelyn is still hopeful that Brienne might have reached it by now and prays that she might even be on the way back with both Sansa and Arya. 

Robb agrees to give Lothar a private audience later and Lothar seems to be doing his best to be courteous. Lothar is polite to Jeyne and claims that his father knows well what it's like to lose his heart to a beautiful woman. Catelyn has her doubts about old Walder knowing anything about that but keeps her thoughts to herself. 

Catelyn thinks about how Robb only seems to be truly comfortable around the Westerlings these days and notices that it's only with them that he smiles. She observes that his squire Rollam is a kind of stand in for Bran while his standard bearer Ser Raynald is part Theon part Jon Snow. 

Robb and Catelyn go to the godswood and he seems hopeful that they'll be able to get the Freys back. Catelyn thinks about how the weight of the crown is crushing Robb and how he tries to be good and honorable but continues to encounter setback after setback. The battle of Duskendale is the latest bit of bad news and Robb doesn't understand why he's lost a third of his foot for something as minor as Duskendale.

Robb agrees to offer Martyn Lannister in exchange for Robett Glover. He also admits that he should have agreed to exchange Sansa for Jaime and thinks that he should have secured the Tyrells to their side by proposing a marriage between Loras and Sansa. Catelyn says that it's understandable that his mind was on battles at the time and tells him he can't be expected to think of everything. Robb comments that he's won every battle but still seems to be losing the war. Catelyn says that all kings have made mistakes before and tells her son that Ned would have been proud of him. 

Robb informs Catelyn that Sansa has been married to Tyrion and she wonders how Tyrion could do that after he swore in court that Sansa would be returned to them if Jaime made it to King's Landing. Robb isn't surprised and says that oathbreaking runs in Tyrion's blood. Catelyn thinks that she should have let Tyrion be pushed out of the Moon Door. Robb recognizes that Sansa has been married for her claim to Winterfell and knows that she's next in line should anything happen to him. Catelyn tells her son that nothing is going to happen to him and says that she'd go mad if anything did because he's all she has left. 

Catelyn brings up the fact that Robb wouldn't be the first king or Stark to bend the knee and mentions Torrhen Stark kneeling for Aegon the conqueror. Robb says the difference is that Aegon didn't kill Torrhen's father and refuses the idea of peace with the Lannisters. Robb asks his mother if she freed Jaime to make peace with the Lannisters and then asks if she forgot that they murdered Ned. Catelyn has to refrain from slapping Robb at this point and reminds herself that he must feel frightened and alone. 

Later that night during dinner, Lothar Frey tells them about Big Walder Frey writing a letter from the Dreadfort saying that Theon was responsible for burning Winterfell. They learn about the death of Ser Rodrik and all of this is blamed on the ironmen according Big Walder. Robb doesn't say anything and turns away, but Catelyn can see the tears in his eyes after he's told this latest bit of news. They also learn that the survivors who lived at Winterfell were taken to the Dreadfort by Ramsay Snow. Robb says that he thought Roose's bastard son had been killed and was told that he'd been a monster and a murderer prior to his death. Lothar says that Big Walder writes that Ramsay is responsible for saving the women and children of Winterfell. Robb asks about Theon but Lothar says that there is no official word. 

Lothar says that Lord Frey will agree to the new marriage alliance between their houses if Robb comes to him and apologizes in person. Robb says that he's pleased and that it was never his intention to upset Lord Frey. Lothar tells them that the offer is sixteen year old Roslin Frey, and Edmure starts to get shifty and says that he wants to meet Roslin before he marries her. Walder Rivers says that Edmure has to agree now or the offer will be withdrawn and Edmure makes it clear that he's unhappy about this. Walder Rivers insists that the marriage has to happen right away and cites his grandfather's advanced age as one of the reasons. Catelyn feels uncomfortable with these arrangements and tries to stall by mentioning that Edmure is still grieving over their father's death. Lothar replies that Roslin will be just the person to help Edmure through his grief.

Robb, Edmure, and Catelyn talk privately and Edmure thinks that he should be allowed to wed whichever daughter or granddaughter he likes just as Robb was initially offered. He says that he's their liege lord and they should be happy that he's willing to wed any of them. Edmure wants to send Lothar back with another offer but the Blackfish convinces his nephew that this is what he can do to make up for the Battle of the Fords. Edmure says that he had a different sort of amends in mind, but ultimately agrees to marry Roslin. 

[benteen]

I always liked Catelyn's post a lot.  She may be more of a witness but I like the story that's being told.

Having the Blackfish get angry at Edmure for missing and shoving him out of the way began his characterization on the show off on the wrong foot and the character never really recovered from it.  I like how understanding Blackfish is here.  However...

Quote

Catelyn is familiar with the story and brings up the fact that her father still managed to hit the target on his second try.

This reminded me that Catelyn can really be an asshole sometimes and judgmental as hell.  Jon Snow be like, tell me something I don't know!

Quote

Lothar says that Big Walder writes that Ramsay is responsible for saving the women and children of Winterfell. Robb asks about Theon but Lothar says that there is no official word. 

You would have thought D&D wrote this about Ramsay. ;)

[nodorothyparker]

Still working my way through the chapter but I can't help but contemplate, knowing that all the arrangements for the Red Wedding have already been made, how it all would have played out if Robb had bitten at Catelyn's suggestion that he bend the knee and offer surrender terms.  Tywin has already married Sansa off to Tyrion in hopes of getting a grandchild on the high seat of Winterfell.  It seems unlikely that he would have said never mind and let Robb return home as anything resembling lord paramount, but at the same time there is something of a precedent with the Tyrells who have been able to keep the Reach and Highgarden despite backing the Targaryens and then Renly.   Do the Lannisters publicly make peace and then let the Red Wedding still happen?   Sansa probably stays a Lannister wife/hostage either way.

[John Potts]

I can't imagine Tywin would allow the Red Wedding to happen if he'd publicly made peace with the Starks. Hell, he never (publicly) admits any responsibility for it even when the Starks are a traitorous House that are openly defying the Iron Throne. If Robb had bent the knee, he would have had to exact vengeance on Lord Frey for murdering one of his vassals had he gone through with the Red Wedding (which he wouldn't, probably, without Tywin's support). He might have exacted some form of vengeance on the Starks (a Faceless Man, perhaps) but he couldn't accept such a flagrant defiance of the King.

[Scarlett45]

Knowing everything that's coming, the clues for the Red Wedding are as plain as the nose on your face. Robb has to come personally mid war? The wedding has to happen right away?

 

Why was Ramsey stupid enough to BURN Winterfell. It's not like castles pop up in thin air? Although a sadistic monster he generally isn't stupid so this perplexed me. 

[benteen]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 7:49 AM, John Potts said:

I can't imagine Tywin would allow the Red Wedding to happen if he'd publicly made peace with the Starks. Hell, he never (publicly) admits any responsibility for it even when the Starks are a traitorous House that are openly defying the Iron Throne. If Robb had bent the knee, he would have had to exact vengeance on Lord Frey for murdering one of his vassals had he gone through with the Red Wedding (which he wouldn't, probably, without Tywin's support). He might have exacted some form of vengeance on the Starks (a Faceless Man, perhaps) but he couldn't accept such a flagrant defiance of the King.

I agree with this.  Tywin later mentions how after your enemy bends the knee, it's important to help them get back up again.  As over the top as Tywin was with his actions, he also was practical enough to recognize this fact.

Ramsay is a clever, long-term planner with an ability to react on the fly but he's also a sadistic monster who doesn't consider the consequences of his actions.  His castrating of Theon was stupid, because he destroyed his value as a hostage in heir-obsessed Westeros.

If Theon had been smart, he would have put Winterfell to the torch and escaped with Stark, Reed and Frey hostages.  That would have put the Iron Islands in a much better place in this war.

Edited September 17, 2016 by benteen

[nodorothyparker]

Ramsay burning Winterfell does make you wonder, in a chapter full of letters being exchanged and in the case of the apparent news blackout on Jaime and Brienne's whereabouts not being exchanged, how much he and Roose have been communicating.  If he knows the Red Wedding is about to happen and the Boltons will be named wardens of the North as a reward, torching Winterfell does seem counterproductive.  As it is, it makes the Starks look so weak and ineffective as rulers that they can't even defend their own castle.  Maybe that's the extent of his reasoning and since Theon is so conveniently there to pin it on, he figured why not.  Psychopaths gotta psychopath.

I can only conclude that Roose is controlling the news coming out of Harrenhal pretty tightly while he's positioning himself.  He can't reveal that Jaime Lannister is there without also showing his hand on whose side he's actually on because if he's still loyal to Robb, he'd be returning him to Riverrun or at least alerting Robb and asking what he wants him to do with him.  

It's interesting that Robb is apparently aware of Ramsay's reputation when it seems that so many other people in the North earlier hadn't heard of him at all and Theon obviously didn't recognize him.

 Robb as a character often veers into being doggedly honorable to the point of just being tedious for me, but you can't help but really feel for him here.  Every single thing is going wrong for him and the losses just keep piling up.  As he says, he's won every battle but he's losing the war.  Maybe because he's all of 16 and doesn't really have any head for political strategy off the battlefield while so many of his allies turned out to be self-serving assholes who were quick to turn on him when following a teenager to war didn't get them the instant victory they wanted.  I understand why he doesn't want to take Catelyn's suggestion to bend the knee but it's yet another example of him not seeing the bigger picture at all.

Considering the evident disdain that nearly everyone from the great houses rarely bother to hide from the Freys and Robb breaking the marriage pact, you can sort of see why they're pushing so hard to make sure a Tully-Frey marriage actually happens this time.  And Edmure isn't being at all helpful about it.  But yeah, it's not at all suspicious that the wedding has to happen RIGHT NOW in the middle of a war and that Robb has to attend personally to apologize.  Catelyn's picking up that something is off about it but she just can't put the pieces together. 

[Lady S.]

12 hours ago, benteen said:

I agree with this.  Tywin later mentions how after your enemy bends the knee, it's important to help them get back up again.  As over the top as Tywin was with his actions, he also was practical enough to recognize this face.

Tywin is practical but is not merciful. Catelyn is right that the Lannisters can afford to give up plans to claim the North through Sansa, but there are plenty of other RW factors that she has no clue about. What practical benefit is there to restore Robb to Lord of Winterfell after Tywin's already stolen Ice and made an alliance with Roose Bolton? He can turn on Walder any time he likes but he can't turn on Roose while Jaime is in Roose's custody, and Tywin already knows from Roose that Jaime was loosed, and presumably Roose already offered to return Jaime if he found him. Robb is no longer any threat to the Lannisters, with their Tyrell alliance and his loss of the Karstarks and Freys and betrayal by the Boltons, therefore he has no leverage to negotiate amnesty. Robb's not wrong not to beg Tywin for mercy, though his stated reasoning isn't great and I fully understand Cat's desire to slap him when he doubted her love for Ned. (I wish someone, anyone, would have actually slapped show Robb post-Talisa.)

Furthermore, when Robb says he was wrong not to trade Sansa for Jaime he has to bring up the Tyrells because he'd need a way to sell the trade to his bannermen. (After the loss of Winterfell and his brothers, Sansa being his heir should have been a good reason, but by that time Catelyn had already ruined any chance of a real Jaime trade.) But the Tyrell marriage for Sansa would have never happened either. Not even with Willas instead of Loras. What the Tyrells care about is a kingly grandchild. No way they'd give their army to Robb for a Stark girl who wasn't an heiress and watch Robb marry a Frey, or even worse, jilt the Freys to marry a Lannister vassal from a much lesser house. Not mention that it's the Iron Throne they're after, so I think they'd only look elsewhere if the Lannisters lost the throne. So I wouldn't say he was wrong not to listen to Catelyn originally there either. Though if he had refused even after the loss of Bran and Rickon if Cat had argued for a trade again instead of just releasing Jaime, then he'd be pretty stupid and pretty shitty.

On 9/15/2016 at 8:42 PM, benteen said:

This reminded me that Catelyn can really be an asshole sometimes and judgmental as hell.  Jon Snow be like, tell me something I don't know!

I'd agree if she said this to Edmure's face, but she said it to Brynden, probably meaning that Edmure knew the story too and it was no consolation because he still didn't measure up. 

I thought Edmure's complaint about Walder's insulting choice of envoys was both petty and tactless. Catelyn is obviously not bastard-friendly, but one of her beloved murdered sons was a cripple. Even worse if he said it in front of Robb, who loved both Bran and Jon. 

As to the Sack of Winterfell, the burning was probably a Ramsay wildcard play, but I do think the murder of Rodrik and the others was Roose approved. Roose tells Theon that most of Ramsay's men report to him, which if true, makes it unlikely they'd follow a returned from the dead bastard to betray Stark bannermen if they believed Roose was still loyal to House Stark, despite Roose leaving Rams as castellan at the Dreadfort. I also doubt Ramsay would remember to spare the Freys without Roose giving orders regarding them.

12 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It's interesting that Robb is apparently aware of Ramsay's reputation when it seems that so many other people in the North earlier hadn't heard of him at all and Theon obviously didn't recognize him.

He isn't more informed than anyone else. He knows that Ramsay Snow was up to murder and rape on the Hornwood lands because Rodrik told them he killed Ramsay. Back in Clash, Ramsay's faked death came up in Catelyn's PoV when she mentions a weird letter from Roose about how he didn't mind his son's execution if he was indeed a criminal. That's why they're so confused and Robb asks if Roose had more than one bastard son. The Freys never actually answer that question nor do they name Ramsay. It's just said that a bastard son of Roose Bolton's saved the women and children left at Winterfell post-Sack. (Once again, I really do not want to think about what Ramsay really did to the women and children of Winterfell. Bad enough we know what happened to Kyra. Maybe some of the others at least had clean deaths.)

Edited September 17, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Davos IV

Stannis has sent for Davos and Ser Axell has been ordered to escort him. Alester Florent tries again to tell Axell that he isn't a traitor and asks to be allowed to speak to Stannis, but is refused. Axell orders one of his men to take the only torch that's in the cell so that Alester will be forced to be in total darkness. Alester begs for the gods to have mercy and Axell reminds his brother that the only gods are R'hllor and the Other. 

Axell tells Davos that if it were up to him, he'd have Davos burned along with Alester and says that he thinks they're both traitors. Davos insists that he's never betrayed Stannis but Axell says that he can see the treachery in his face and claims that he's seen Davos's betrayal in the flames. He says that R'hllor has blessed him with the gift of being able to see the future in the flames. He claims that he's seen Stannis sitting on the Iron Throne and says that Stannis will make him his Hand in place of his brother. Axell wants Davos to tell Stannis that Axell should be Hand and mentions that Selyse and Salladhor are already both supportive of him getting the job. Axell promises that Davos will have a ship if he is supportive of the move to make Axell Hand. He also threatens to find a way to make sure that Davos is killed if Davos moves against him. 

Stannis is standing in front of the Painted Table and Davos is shocked when he takes in Stannis's appearance. He's lost a lot of weight and Davos thinks that he looks about ten years older than he did the last time he saw him. Stannis gives a small smile when he sees Davos and tells him that he missed him and his good counsel. Stannis asks Davos what the penalty is for treason and Davos admits that the penalty is death. 

Stannis says that he isn't a cruel man but insists that the law is the law. Davos tells Stannis that Alester didn't mean to commit treason but Stannis doesn't see how it can be anything else and brings up the fact that Alester would have married Shireen to a product of incest. 

Stannis reflects on how easy it was for his brother Robert to inspire loyalty and wonders why he only seems to be able to inspire betrayal from people even in his own family.

Stannis wants to know what Davos thinks of Axell's plan to attack Claw Isle and Davos says that he thinks it would be a cowardly folly. Axell is angry when Davos explains to them why he thinks it would be wrong to attack the weakly held Claw Isle. He says that one of the reasons that Claw Isle is weakly defended is because a bunch of the men who lived there died fighting for Stannis. He disagrees with Axell about the smallfolk of Claw Isle being guilty of treason and thinks that it would be wrong to punish them simply because Lord Celtigar made the decision to bend the knee. Stannis says that men are duty bound to be loyal to their kings no matter what, so Davos decides to bring up the fact that Stannis didn't remain loyal to King Aerys. 

Axell thinks this comment is proof that Davos is a traitor, but Stannis ends up telling Axell to leave room and asks him to send him Melisandre. Stannis reminds Davos that he could have his tongue cut out if he wanted and Davos seems to agree that his tongue belongs to Stannis. 

“It is,” he said, calmer. “And I would have it speak the truth. Though the truth is a bitter draught at times. Aerys, If you only knew... that was a hard choosing. My blood or my liege. My brother or my king.” He grimaced. “Have you ever seen the Iron Throne? The barbs along the back, the ribbons of twisted steel, the jagged ends of swords and knives all tangled up and melted? It is not a comfortable seat, ser. Aerys cut himself so often men took to calling him King Scab, and Maegor the Cruel was murdered in that chair. By that chair, to hear some tell it. It is not a seat where a man can rest at ease. Ofttimes I wonder why my brothers wanted it so desperately.”

 

Davos asks Stannis why he wants the Iron Throne and Stannis replies that it isn't a question of him wanting the throne. He feels that the throne belongs to him because he's Robert's heir. He says that Shireen is next in line unless Selyse should give birth to a son and says that he has a duty to both his daughter and the realm. He also admits to feeling a duty to Robert even though Robert didn't love him all that much. He thinks about how Cersei made a fool of Robert and probably had him murdered along with Jon Arryn and Ned Stark. 

Stannis thinks that it was a mistake for Robert to allow certain people like Varys to live and mentions that Ser Barristan once told him that Aerys's reign turned bad once the eunuch rolled onto the scene. He also thinks that it was a mistake for Robert to allow Jaime to serve on the Kingsguard and thinks that he ought to have been sent to the Wall as Ned suggested at the time. It was Jon Arryn who thought that Jaime should be pardoned. Stannis seems annoyed that he wasn't consulted about any of this at the time because he was still stuck holding Storm's End. 

Stannis asks Davos to tell him the truth and asks him why he wants to have Melisandre killed. Davos admits that he blames her for the deaths of his four sons on the Blackwater, but Stannis defends Melisandre and says that she isn't to blame. He says that there are any number of people that Davos can blame for the deaths of his sons including Tyrion, the pyromancers, and Stannis himself, but insists that Melisandre is innocent and remains his most faithful servant. Davos says that Maester Cressen was once Stannis's most faithful servant and Melisandre was responsible for his death along with the deaths of Ser Cortnay and Renly. 

Stannis claims that neither he nor Melisandre was responsible for Renly's death and says that it was at Melisandre's urging that he gave Renly one last chance to come to his side. He also admits that it's Melisandre who has urged Stannis not to give Davos to the flames even though Axell is encouraging him to do so. Davos admits to being surprised that Melisandre spoke up for him and Stannis says that it's because Melisandre recognizes that Davos is a true friend to him. 

Stannis starts talking about Edric Storm and says that the boy has been sick. Maester Pylos has been leeching Edric and Davos mentions that he saw Edric down in Aegon's Garden. Stannis says that Melisandre wanted this little encounter between Davos and Edric to happen and says she saw it in the flames. Stannis asks if Edric managed to charm Davos and says that Edric has the same ability to charm that his father did. He seems upset that Edric doesn't seem to care that he's a bastard and seems more focused on the fact that he's a king's son. He talks about how Edric worships Robert and how it was actually Varys who was responsible for sending Edric a series of expensive gifts over the years. He says that Renly wasn't much better with Edric and says that he mainly left him in the care of maesters and castellans. He thinks about how Ser Cortnay chose to die rather than give Edric up and seems angry that Cortnay didn't trust that he wouldn't harm the boy. 

Davos notices that Stannis refuses to use Edric's name and this makes him feel uneasy. Stannis mentions that Edric himself isn't all that important but it is a big deal that he has Robert's blood because there is power in king's blood according to Melisandre. 

Stannis says that he wants to bring justice to Westeros and says that Axell doesn't seem to understand justice or war. Stannis agrees with Davos that Axell's plan for Claw Isle would be evil and thinks that Lord Celtigar himself should be made to pay. He promises that he's going to pay back everyone he considers to be a traitor the day he takes the Iron Throne. 

Stannis asks Davos to kneel and tells him that he wants to make him a lord. Davos says that he wouldn't know how to be a lord and Stannis replies that this is a good thing. Davos has a chance to see Lightbringer and notices that the steel has a bright glow to it. 

Davos is now the Lord of the Rainwood, Admiral of the Sea, and Hand of the King. Davos is shocked and doesn't think that he's fit to be Hand but Stannis doesn't think that there's anyone better for the job. Davos doesn't think that Stannis's lords would ever agree to obey him and Stannis says that if this is the case then they'll make new lords. 

Davos asks if there isn't some other lord who would be right for the job but Stannis doesn't think that any of his lords would be right. Bar Emmon and Velaryon are too young, Celtigar has switched sides, and the new Lord Sunglass fled to Volantis in response to Stannis having his brother burned. There are some good men who are still with Stannis but he admits that he doesn't trust them the way that he trusts Davos. It's Davos that he wants to be beside him for the battle. 

Davos tells Stannis that they don't have the strength for another battle against the Lannisters, and this is when Melisandre comes in and says that it's the great battle that Stannis is speaking of. She says that He Who Must Not Be Named the great other is marshaling his forces and says that the cold will be coming along with a night that never ends unless men with courage stand together and fight. Stannis tells Davos that Melisandre has shown him all this in the flames. Davos confirms that Stannis saw this with his own eyes and feels that he wouldn't lie about it.

“With mine own eyes. After the battle, when I was lost to despair, the Lady Melisandre bid me gaze into the hearthfire. The chimney was drawing strongly, and bits of ash were rising from the fire. I stared at them, feeling half a fool, but she bid me look deeper, and... the ashes were white, rising in the updraft, yet all at once it seemed as if they were falling. Snow, I thought. Then the sparks in the air seemed to circle, to become a ring of torches, and I was looking through the fire down on some high hill in a forest. The cinders had become men in black behind the torches, and there were shapes moving through the snow. For all the heat of the fire, I felt a cold so terrible I shivered, and when I did the sight was gone, the fire but a fire once again. But what I saw was real, I’d stake my kingdom on it.”

Davos is frightened at the strength of the conviction in Stannis's voice but doesn't seem entirely convinced about what he's just heard. Melisandre insists that the battle has already begun and says that Westeros will need to stand together under one king in order to fight. 

Stannis doesn't understand why R'hllor chose him and wonders why one of his brothers wasn't chosen instead. He thinks about Renly and his peach and admits that he dreams about Renly's death. He thinks about how if they'd only stood together they could have smashed the Lannister army once and for all and that even Robert would have been proud of them. He thinks about how Robert was always better than him at everything and wonders why R'hllor didn't choose him instead. Melisandre says it's because Stannis is a righteous man. 

They turn their attention to the leeches. Melisandre tells him that this isn't the way and basically says that using the leeches aren't a guarantee. She says they both will and won't work and says that it isn't always easy to see the truth in the flames. She says that the better way would be to use the boy and says with him, she'll be able to 'wake the stone dragon'. Stannis tells Melisandre that he already told her no, but she argues with him and says that it's one child versus all of the other children and future children of Westeros. Stannis says that Edric is innocent and Melisandre claims that Edric defiled Stannis's marital bed and says that this is the reason that he doesn't have any sons of his own. Stannis says that Robert is to blame for defiling his marriage bed and mentions that Shireen is fond of Edric. 

Stannis doesn't want to hear any more talk of waking the stone dragon and says that every time the Targaryens tried to bring dragons back it either ended in death or the Targaryens looking like fools. He commands Melisandre to do what she can with the leeches. 

The leeches are full of Edric's blood and Melisandre instructs Stannis to take each leech and cast it into the fire while saying the names of the three usurpers: Joffrey, Balon, and Robb. 

[benteen]

Interesting that Stannis says that it was Jon Arryn who convinced Robert to pardon Jaime.  I didn't realize this.

As I recall, Robert would laugh when Edric sent him letters thanking him for his gifts and ask Varys what he got him this year.  Ah, that Robert...father of the year.

Very good and interesting Stannis chapter. 

[John Potts]

I find it interesting that Melissandre argued against burning Davos: she may be (according to some) evil, but she isn't callous, so if Lord Davos serves Stannis dutifully, she's happy for him to continue serving (even to denounce her!). Also, I wasn't entirely sure what she meant by saying Edric "defiled Stannis' bed" - he's not Stannis' (or Selyse's) bastard, he's Robert's - was Edric screwing serving girls in Stannis' bed? Clearly he IS his father's son, if that's the case!

Also, funny in the light of later revelations that Stannis thinks it was after Varys' arrival that things started to go bad (even attributing the comment to that other "totally honourable dude" Barristan Selmy). If it had been Littlefinger saying it, you'd just dismiss that, but he's not entirely wrong there about his probable loyalties. Of course, it might be pure anti eunuch - or anti-merman! - prejudice.

Interesting that Ser Axell says he has seen Stannis on the Iron Throne. With Melissandre, I'm pretty sure she's telling the truth abut what she sees - she may misinterpret what she's seeing, but I'm pretty sure she's telling the truth (and hell, in the Crapsack world that is Westeros, she may actually be a "Good" person!). Axell seems more self serving in his statements though, so maybe he was just buttering Stannis up by saying he saw him on the Throne (totally misjudging his audience there, if that's the case).

Spoiler

From what I recall of The Winds of Winter Chapters, Book!Stannis does succeed in capturing Winterfell, but I can't see him taking the Iron Throne, unless he decides to ally with Danny. So I guess Ser Axell was just full of crap.

Edited September 20, 2016 by John Potts

[Scarlett45]

@John Potts Edric was conceived in Stannis & Selyse's bed during their wedding feast as Robert seduced a Flourent noble virgin and deflowered her on his brother's bed as a big FUCK YOU. The reason Edric is fostered at Stormsend (thanks @nodorothyparker ) is because of his Mother's high birth and position. That's what Meladandre meant when she said that. Edric is only 10-11yrs old, a little young for those antics.  

Edited September 21, 2016 by Scarlett45
Stormsend isn't Dragonstone

[nodorothyparker]

Edric was fostered at Storm's End.  That's what the whole episode with Cortnay Penrose that Stannis is grousing about here was about.  Mel killed Penrose with her second shadow demon baby after Ser Cortnay wouldn't just hand Edric over to Stannis and Mel almost immediately following Renly's suspicious death.

This is such a great chapter that really gets to the heart of who both Davos and Stannis are.  Davos is such an unerringly decent man that he immediately calls out Axell's plan as taking revenge on all the wrong people that won't even gain Stannis anything although Davos would more than have reason at this point to keep his mouth shut and wait to see how things play out.  I like Stannis's speech about how unforgiving the Iron Throne is and how it's not meant to be comfortable.  Regardless of what I might otherwise think of his logic or suspect that at least a little part of him wants the crown to finally satisfy his raging middle child syndrome, I do totally buy his reasoning that he is the rightful king because that's what the rules say and that's the way it's supposed to be done.  And while I'm sure that the lack of good candidates for the job does figure into the decision, I also really like that Stannis is one of the few highborns in the series to truly appreciate Davos's worth in naming him hand.  Davos is right that doing so won't make Stannis any more credible to other highborns, but he's not very credible to any of them as a king candidate at this point in the story anyway.

I caught too that of course Stannis takes the honorable Barristan Selmy's word for it that Varys was the source of what went wrong with Targaryen rule and not, say, a seriously inbred family tree resulting in a mad king who liked to burn people alive.  As far as I can recall, Stannis was never anywhere near the court before Robert's reign so that's entirely hearsay.  It's also not terribly surprising that Ned and Stannis, both of whom can only be described as black and white thinkers, wanted Jaime sent to the Wall or that Jon Arryn, who was trying to finance a new dynasty on the backs of the richest family in the kingdoms, would have argued against it.

The leeches and the vision of the Nights Watch in the cold are nice bits of foreshadowing. 

[WearyTraveler]

On ‎20‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 8:28 PM, John Potts said:

I find it interesting that Melissandre argued against burning Davos: she may be (according to some) evil, but she isn't callous, so if Lord Davos serves Stannis dutifully, she's happy for him to continue serving (even to denounce her!). Also, I wasn't entirely sure what she meant by saying Edric "defiled Stannis' bed" - he's not Stannis' (or Selyse's) bastard, he's Robert's - was Edric screwing serving girls in Stannis' bed? Clearly he IS his father's son, if that's the case!

Edric was conceived in Stannis' marriage bed, during Stannis' wedding to Selyse.  It happened after the wedding, but before the bedding, which is why Selyse thinks that Robert's act somehow cursed her marriage to Stannis and it's the reason why she hasn't given Stannis any sons.

[WearyTraveler]

17 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

As far as I can recall, Stannis was never anywhere near the court before Robert's reign so that's entirely hearsay.

I forget what chapter or book it is, but there's one instance when Stannis is telling the story of the first time he and Robert saw the Iron throne and how impressed they were with the King as they watched him hold court only to find out later that Aerys was not the one holding court that day, but Tywin, standing in for Aerys because he was Hand of the King at the time.

 

17 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

I caught too that of course Stannis takes the honorable Barristan Selmy's word for it that Varys was the source of what went wrong with Targaryen rule and not, say, a seriously inbred family tree resulting in a mad king who liked to burn people alive.

I wondered about the truth of that statement.  Later on, when Selmy tells Dany about Aerys, he doesn't sugarcoat it, and even tells her that story about the baby Targs having a 50-50 chance to go down the crazy route.  So, Barristan is not blind to his former King's flaws.  I think he might have been right on the money with Varys.  Later, when we learn the game that Varys and Mopatis have been playing, we learn that Varys has been involved in training (f)Aegon not only on the kingly arts but also on the plight of the common people, so he could be a better ruler.  Varys repeatedly says he serves "the realm" and we tend to dismiss it because he's so often portrayed as a player with an agenda, who is devious and grossly underestimated; but I think there might actually be a lot of truth on that.  Varys was a common boy, who was mutilated because he was disposable, like so many other peasants and small folk are.

If his plan was to really change the system from within through (f)Aegon, I could see him trying to destabilize Aerys' monarchy to create enough chaos to do exactly that.  Maybe the original plan had been to get rid of Aerys so Rhaegar, who is well regarded by everyone except Robert, could rule.  Or to kidnap Viserys and hide him away while they moulded him into the King they wanted to have.  Then Robert killed Rhaegar, Viserys was sprinted away by someone else, and the Mountain smashed baby Aegon's head, forcing Varys and Mopatis to change plans.  Whatever the plan was, I think it is possible that Varys fanned the flames, so to speak, of Aery's madness, and Barristan instinctively knew that Varys wasn't really working for Aerys.

_____________________________

One minor detail that I found interesting in this chapter is that after Stannis names Davos his hand, he starts going through the names of the Lords that are still loyal to him and he mentions "my cousin Andrew".  He doesn't mention a last name, but he does talk about the Florents together, and then starts naming other houses.  So, I wonder if we'll ever hear about this cousin again.  If I'm not mistaken, according to the laws of succession, this cousin would be the heir of the IT if something were to happen to Stannis and Shireen.

[Scarlett45]

@WearyTraveler perhaps that cousin is on his Mother's side, not his Father's as they claim the throne through 1. Conquest, 2. A targaryen grandmother on their father's side. 

[Lady S.]

On 9/20/2016 at 9:58 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I caught too that of course Stannis takes the honorable Barristan Selmy's word for it that Varys was the source of what went wrong with Targaryen rule and not, say, a seriously inbred family tree resulting in a mad king who liked to burn people alive.  As far as I can recall, Stannis was never anywhere near the court before Robert's reign so that's entirely hearsay.  It's also not terribly surprising that Ned and Stannis, both of whom can only be described as black and white thinkers, wanted Jaime sent to the Wall or that Jon Arryn, who was trying to finance a new dynasty on the backs of the richest family in the kingdoms, would have argued against it.

Steffon was the king's first cousin and we know they had visited court at least once, though, no, Stannis wouldn't have been privy to the inner workings when he was still a kid. However, Barry's opinion of Varys matches up with Jaime's, who says that Varys telling Aerys not to open the gates to Tywin was the only good advice he ever gave and that otherwise he did everything he could to inflame the Mad King's paranoia. They're not saying Aerys wasn't crazy or that Varys somehow drove him crazy, just that Varys made things worse. As @WearyTraveler says, he did have his own agenda which did not coincide with actually helping Aerys.

On 9/21/2016 at 10:47 PM, Scarlett45 said:

@WearyTraveler perhaps that cousin is on his Mother's side, not his Father's as they claim the throne through 1. Conquest, 2. A targaryen grandmother on their father's side. 

Yes, that would be Andrew Estermont, Cassana's nephew. The Estermonts would only come into play if Steffon Baratheon's blood had entirely died out. In addition to Bob's bastards, there could well be female-line Baratheons out there. We know from the World Book that Steffon's father had at least one sister, the one originally meant for a Targ marriage until Prince Duncan jilted her to marry Jenny of Oldstones. If that sister married someone else, she could have surviving descendents somewhere. There's also the uncle from Stan's Proudwing story, whose last name was never given. For all we know, that uncle could have been Steffon's brother or a brother of Steffon's father or even an older cousin born to a female Baratheon. He could likely just be another Estermont, but if he was living at Storm's End that could indicate Baratheon blood.

This chapter is easily the most sympathetic Stannis has been so far, with his dismissal of Axell and choosing to elevate Davos above Axell and all his other supporters. Sure, he doesn't really have much choice as far as loyalists go, but he could also just free Davos without naming anyone the new Hand. He didn't have a Hand all through Clash so I got the feeling Alester having the title was Selyse's doing and Stannis just went along with it in his post-Blackwater funk. Stannis is also showing growth by brooding on his vision of the Fist of the First Men instead of continuing to mope about his own defeat. I do think he cares so much about being Robert's heir moreso because of the raging Middle Child Syndrome than the law itself, but I also think he genuinely does feel the burden of saving all the world and wishes Red Rahloo would have preferred one of his brothers the way most everyone else did. OTOH, his raging MCS pops up in a new way when he acts jealous of his 12yo nephew's ability to charm. He still complains about Penrose not handing over Edric while already using the boy's blood for this black magic blood ritual. Yeah, he's refusing to kill Edric yet and doesn't blame him for his own conception, but I don't think saying the kid's only value is as a bloodbank and leeching him when he's not truly sick really qualifies as doing no harm. (I also think he's kidding himself regarding Mel's guilt in Renly's death, but that's nothing new.)

On 9/20/2016 at 2:28 PM, John Potts said:

I find it interesting that Melissandre argued against burning Davos: she may be (according to some) evil, but she isn't callous, so if Lord Davos serves Stannis dutifully, she's happy for him to continue serving (even to denounce her!). Also, I wasn't entirely sure what she meant by saying Edric "defiled Stannis' bed" - he's not Stannis' (or Selyse's) bastard, he's Robert's - was Edric screwing serving girls in Stannis' bed? Clearly he IS his father's son, if that's the case!

Interesting that Ser Axell says he has seen Stannis on the Iron Throne. With Melissandre, I'm pretty sure she's telling the truth abut what she sees - she may misinterpret what she's seeing, but I'm pretty sure she's telling the truth (and hell, in the Crapsack world that is Westeros, she may actually be a "Good" person!). Axell seems more self serving in his statements though, so maybe he was just buttering Stannis up by saying he saw him on the Throne (totally misjudging his audience there, if that's the case).

  Hide contents

From what I recall of The Winds of Winter Chapters, Book!Stannis does succeed in capturing Winterfell, but I can't see him taking the Iron Throne, unless he decides to ally with Danny. So I guess Ser Axell was just full of crap.

I find it way more intriguing that she wanted Davos to meet Edric, considering that Davos ends up rescuing Edric from Mel. Did she assume this meeting showed up in the flames because Davos would actually end up supporting the kingsblood sacrifice, or did she just not give that much thought to it?

Axell Florent is a vile opportunist who also claims to have seen a vision of Davos betraying Stannis. I very much doubt he actually had any visions. Notice that Stannis only had his vision of the Fist because Melly showed it to him yet Axell is claiming to have visions on his own without any help from Mel. So he's basically claiming to have better flame-reading ability than his own messiah-king. And he has no particular reason that I can see for taking the torch away from Alester so I can only assume he's a sadist too.

Spoiler

Do you mean it looks like Stannis will take Winterfell in Winds? Because he's still stuck in the snow in Theon I.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Lady S.

[John Potts]

Regarding Winds of Winter:

Spoiler

I think I was misremembering one of the preview Chapters where Stannis was waiting in a tower - I couldn't find it for a while but I've since heard it again and it seems he in a tower outside Winterfell, not actually inside it. My bad, I guess

[Avaleigh]

Jaime V

Jaime and Brienne are in Harrenhal's bathhouse getting cleaned up before they have to see Roose for dinner. Jaime asks Brienne to help him out of the tub if he ends up fainting and she replies by asking him why she should care how he dies. He reminds her of the vow she swore and asks if the sight of his stump distresses her. He thrusts his wounded arm in her face and tells her it's no wonder Renly died if she was the one who was protecting him. 

Brienne gets out of the tub and Jaime apologizes for the comment. He asks her forgiveness and says that she did a better job than most would have. Brienne is suspicious of Jaime's apology and the conversation turns to Jaime's status as a kingslayer. Jaime wonders why people don't think of Robert as an oathbreaker the way that they see him as a kingslayer, and Brienne says it's because Robert did everything he did for love. Jaime doesn't think this is true and believes that pride and a pretty face were Robert's primary motivations. 

Jaime starts telling Brienne about Aerys and says that Aerys grew more frightened of Robert after the Battle of the Bells. He felt that Robert was the biggest threat to House Targaryen since Daemon Blackfyre and became even more unnerved with the state of affairs in the realm after receiving nothing but silence from Casterly Rock. Aerys would see traitors everywhere he looked and Varys would point out any that he happened to miss. Aerys commanded his alchemists to place caches of wildfire all over the city including the Red Keep. When Aerys's latest Hand Lord Chelsted quit over the wildfire issue, Aerys had Lord Chelsted burned alive. The plans for the wildfire continued and the pyromancer Rossart was made Hand after Chelsted was killed. Once Rhaegar was defeated at the Trident and word reached the court, Aerys sent Rhaella and Viserys away but prevented Elia from joining them because he felt her presence would keep Dorne loyal. 

Aerys tells Rossart that he's going to make sure that the traitors who want his city get nothing but ashes, and Jaime thinks that Aerys intended to have the 'biggest funeral pyre of all'. Jaime doesn't think that Aerys believed that he would truly die and believes that Aerys thought he would be transformed into a dragon so that he could roast all of his enemies. 

When Tywin's men arrive in King's Landing, Pycelle is the one who convinces Aerys that his Warden of the West is there to help him and gets him to open the gates. Varys advises Aerys against opening the gates to Tywin and Jaime notes that the one time Aerys should have followed Varys's advice Aerys ignored him. 

Jaime says that it fell to him to hold the Red Keep and when all was lost, he asked for Aerys's permission to make terms. Aerys sent back a message telling Jaime to bring him Tywin's head to prove that he isn't a traitor. Jaime kills Rossart and then kills Aerys before Aerys can send somebody else to give the order to the pyromancers. He also hunts down the other pyromancers and has them killed.

When Jaime opened his eyes, he found himself staring at the stump of his sword hand. The hand that made me Kingslayer. The goat had robbed him of his glory and his shame, both at once. Leaving what? Who am I now?

Brienne asks why no one knows about this story if it's true and Jaime says that Ned Stark wasn't interested in hearing any explanation he might have. He says that Ned judged him guilty from the moment he looked at him and asks by what right the wolf is permitted to judge the lion. Brienne catches Jaime as he faints and calls to the guards for help. Jaime feels how strong Brienne is and thinks to himself that she's gentler than Cersei.

Brienne helps Jaime get cleaned and dressed so that they can dine with Roose Bolton. Brienne is forced to wear an ill fitting, stained pink dress and when Jaime takes in her appearance, he has to force himself to keep from making an unkind joke at her expense. 

Roose tells Jaime that Edmure Tully has offered a thousand golden dragons if Jaime is returned to Riverrun. Jaime says that Cersei will pay ten times that amount and Roose says that ten thousand is a lot of money and asks if Cersei will really pay that much. 

Roose mentions Robb's marriage to Jeyne Westerling and Brienne doesn't believe that Robb would break his word. Roose is annoyed that Brienne is questioning his word on the subject and tells her that he doesn't appreciate it. Jaime tries to recall Jeyne Westerling but doesn't seem to remember if he's met her or not. Jaime feels sorry for Robb and thinks that he just lost the war off of the battlefield. 

Roose says that Arya Stark has been found and that he intends to see that she's safely returned to the north. Brienne tells Roose that Sansa and Arya have both been promised in exchange for Jaime's return. Roose informs Brienne that Lannisters lie and Jaime responds by threatening to stab Roose in the eye with his cheese knife. Roose tells Jaime that he's being bold for a man who can barely feed himself and wonders if he should hand him over to Edmure after all. Jaime reminds Roose that Casterly Rock has a long memory and says that friendship between their houses could be a good thing. Roose questions whether the Lannisters are the sort of friends that a wise man would want. 

Brienne asks for leave to bring Jaime to King's Landing so that she can exchange him for the Stark girls and Roose tells Brienne that the raven from Riverrun said that Jaime escaped and didn't mention anything about a prisoner exchange. He tells Brienne that she's guilty of treason if she aided Jaime in his escape. Brienne says that she serves Catelyn Stark and Roose responds by saying that he serves the King in the North and the King of the North never wanted to return Jaime back to the Lannisters. 

Roose admits that he hopes to send Jaime onto King's Landing and tells Jaime that the only problem is Vargo Hoat. He says since Hoat is in his employ, he's concerned that Tywin will hold him responsible for what happened to Jaime. Jaime agrees to absolve Roose of any blame regarding the loss of his hand and asks how soon they'll be able to leave. Roose says that Jaime will be allowed to leave when Qyburn says he's strong enough and gives a few details on the men who will be escorting him back. 

Brienne says that the protection that Lord Bolton is providing is welcome but reminds him that Lady Stark's daughters will be under her charge. Roose tells Brienne that Lady Stark's daughters are no longer her concern. He informs them that Sansa has been married to Tyrion, and Brienne can't believe that Tyrion would marry Sansa after swearing in open court that he would send her back. Jaime is also surprised to learn that Tyrion is married but he thinks that this union should put a smile on his brother's face. He remembers Tyrion's brief period of happiness when he was married to the crofter's daughter. 

Roose tells Brienne that Jaime will go on to King's Landing but says he wouldn't feel right about depriving Vargo Hoat of both of his prizes. He tells Brienne that she should start worrying less about the Starks and more about sapphires. 

[Avaleigh]

I really like the line about Roose saying he's not sure that a wise man would want to be friends with the Lannisters. 

I also wonder if he wishes that he hadn't married Walda. His line about telling Jaime that he's lucky he's already married makes it seem like he might think Alys would have been a more preferable match.

Is Roose talking about Arya or Jeyne/a nameless pretender? Could news about Arya being with the BWB have spread that fast? 

I like that Jaime also assumed that Brienne would be coming with him to King's Landing based on the way that he asked about when they would be allowed to leave as opposed to only asking about himself.

I like Jaime noticing that Brienne is a more gentle person than Cersei. That might seem like a given but since Jaime sees Cersei in a different light, that thought about the contrast with Brienne seemed particularly meaningful.

[nodorothyparker]

I think Roose is pretty satisfied with the alliance he's made because he's about to take wardenship of the North and remove anyone who would really be able to make much of a fuss about it.  Without Lannister backing and Frey cooperation he likely never would have been able to pull that off and if he somehow had, he'd still be looking down the barrel of trying to make nice with the ruling regime after a bloody civil war.  That doesn't mean he doesn't fully realize he's got a tiger by the tail in his dealings with Tywin.  I read most of what he's saying to Jaime as just fucking with him because he can and when is ever likely to have such an opportunity of having a Lannister completely at his mercy again?  There's a meme out there somewhere of season 3/book 3 Roose being an epic master level troll that I think was pretty spot on.

I've always assumed Roose is talking about Jeyne as Arya, probably having gotten a raven sealing that deal as part of the bigger you kill the Starks you get all the gifts in this lovely showcase package.  There hasn't been any real sense in the previous chapters that the BWB is inclined to be making deals with what they would consider any of the petty lords at this point and the Boltons certainly don't have the reputation for being the kind of fair or just they'd want to try.   While there's always a little part of me that wants to be skeptical that no one among the Northern or Bolton contingent seems to recognize that Jeyne most definitely isn't Arya, I also don't find it wholly implausible that they didn't.  Jeyne would have been one of the girls hanging around wherever the Stark girls were so she probably looks at least vaguely familiar and Arya especially wouldn't have been marriageable age when any of them would have last seen her to even take much notice of her.

I just love this chapter and this storyline so much.  I like the show's physical staging of the bath scenes more but prefer the book's dialogue, if that makes sense.   In addition to filling in and upending so much of his backstory, Jaime's doing a lot of comparing and contrasting between Cersei and Brienne.  Which again makes sense if he's never given any woman outside of Cersei any serious thought up until now.  Sure, some of it is the "you're so ugly" superficial stuff he's already done but he's also noticing the ways that Brienne comes off better, like her innate gentleness.   It's clear that he sees them both on the same side at this point and I kind of wish we'd gotten some reaction to the news that she wouldn't be traveling on with him.

Edited September 29, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[John Potts]

18 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Aerys would see traitors everywhere he looked and Varys would point out any that he happened to miss.

It was Varys' JOB to do exactly that, but telling a paranoid psychopath that there are plots against him probably didn't help. Not saying that Varys couldn't be planning on having FAegon replace Aerys, but just informing the King of the plots against him probably wasn't very good for his mental health.

I assume Roose (at least) is aware that "Arya" is in fact Jeyne. I'm still unsure how much the other Lords know that too and aren't just going, "Oh yes, that's DEFINITELY Arya Stark and not somebody else entirely!" (it would all depend on how much the Lords visit each other and how much Arya was around if/when they did).

[Lady S.]

On 9/28/2016 at 11:47 AM, nodorothyparker said:

I've always assumed Roose is talking about Jeyne as Arya, probably having gotten a raven sealing that deal as part of the bigger you kill the Starks you get all the gifts in this lovely showcase package.  There hasn't been any real sense in the previous chapters that the BWB is inclined to be making deals with what they would consider any of the petty lords at this point and the Boltons certainly don't have the reputation for being the kind of fair or just they'd want to try.   While there's always a little part of me that wants to be skeptical that no one among the Northern or Bolton contingent seems to recognize that Jeyne most definitely isn't Arya, I also don't find it wholly implausible that they didn't.  Jeyne would have been one of the girls hanging around wherever the Stark girls were so she probably looks at least vaguely familiar and Arya especially wouldn't have been marriageable age when any of them would have last seen her to even take much notice of her.

Yeah, it's definitely Jeyne, the ambiguity is just there to be a red herring for first time readers. The BwB deal in secrecy to the point of not even always knowing where their leader is at any one time. They wouldn't advertise their hostages to their enemies. If Roose or Tywin were trying to get Arya from the BwB, it would have come up later when that obviously didn't happen. 

Roose knew he wasn't given the real Arya, that much was clear in Dance. The Lannisters had no reason to lie to him when Roose didn't care. One vaguely Starkish northern girl is as good as another. And Jaime knows by the time he's in KL, telling Brienne not to follow the girl being sent north as Arya Stark. What's interesting about the reveal here is it confirms what I already suspected about Tywin not really counting on Tyrion being Lord of Winterfell. Why go to the trouble of impersonating Arya if it wasn't for her claim to Winterfell? A claim which should only matter if Sansa's was off the table. Either Tywin wanted a contingency in case Sansa died without producing a surviving son, in case Tyrion got himself killed or otherwise failed or else he just never planned to send Tyrion north. I only wonder if Tywin would have given an actual Stark girl to Roose if he'd had both of them. He's greedy enough that I could see him not wanting to give away someone he actually considered valuable. 

Jaime's not really committed to fulfilling his oath yet if he doesn't care that Sansa is married. Kind of weird that he'd think Tyrion would be happy with Sansa when she has plenty of reason to dislike him. 

On 9/28/2016 at 9:52 AM, Avaleigh said:

I also wonder if he wishes that he hadn't married Walda. His line about telling Jaime that he's lucky he's already married makes it seem like he might think Alys would have been a more preferable match.

Not having Alys and her claim to Karhold isn't just about Walda. Rickard is dead and his family aren't really bound by his bloodthirsty bounty offers. As we see in Dance, they're very intent on keeping Karhold in the family. I doubt Roose would expect them to just hand her over. Walda's dowry has already been paid and a bird in the hand in worth two in the bush. The more valuable bride is the imposter being offered for his son, a wife probably would have been offered to Roose himself if he were still single. Ditching Tywin's "friendship" for the unsure chance of Karhold would mean losing a lot more than he'd gain, though he's smart enough to know Tywin's not really his friend.

What I took away from the Karstark talk was that if Robb had kept Rickard alive as a hostage, he'd be doing it for nothing, because Roose had already gotten rid of Harrion by sending him to Duskendale. So there was no Karstark left at Harrenhal to be outraged by Rickard's death and take his infantry away.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Lady S.

[nodorothyparker]

I think you can tell by the way Tywin words the offer to Tyrion about ruling Winterfell and the North "though your son by Sansa" that he knows damn good and well that Tyrion will never be lord there and doesn't much care.  Between being a dwarf and sentiment against the Lannisters being what it is in the North over Ned's beheading even before the Red Wedding, Tyrion clearly can't go to Winterfell and rule with Sansa by his side without very likely getting killed before he can father a Lannister on her.  It's all about the dynasty for Tywin, so he's probably just fine with the idea that it will have to be a Lannister grandson on that high seat.  In the meantime, though, somebody has to hold the place and not run it completely into the ground.  It might as well be someone who has good reason to be as loyal as the Boltons are capable of being loyal over clandestine Lannister support and legitimization through a marriage to "Arya."  I've never gotten the sense that Tywin considers Roose anything more than a placeholder, just like it's pretty obvious that Roose realizes it's not wise to trust Tywin too much if he comes up with another plan he likes better down the line.

I don't think Jaime's given much thought to any oaths he might have made at all since he lost his hand and spiraled into full-blown identity crisis.  Knowing how much Tyrion craves respect and equity from their father, it's not really that much of a stretch to think he'd be happy to have been given a pretty young bride with a very respectable claim to a great house.  Given that Jaime has been absent from court since before Ned died and Cersei and Joffers turned torturing Sansa into a sport, he has no way of knowing how bad things have really been there or how much she would have come to despise them.  Highborn marriages don't seem to have a lot to do with how the individual participants feel about it anyway.

Edited September 29, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

9 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Knowing how much Tyrion craves respect and equity from their father, it's not really that much of a stretch to think he'd be happy to have been given a pretty young bride with a very respectable claim to a great house.  

No, but happiness in a marriage still has to do with people's feelings, even if they're at most platonic. Jaime thinks of Tyrion's first marriage, not Tywin's respect and favor, but he doesn't understand that it's affection Tyrion craves more than anything, and that was why the marriage to Tysha meant so much to him. She was only a peasant and Tyrion never describes her as any great beauty. Jaime is a romantic uninterested in any arranged marriage, so it's not like he totally shares the standard mindset here either. Tyrion marrying the first girl he had sex with should be a clue that he and his brother have something in common there. I mainly bring this up because some people seem to think the Tyrion/Sansa marriage is proof that Tyrion is worse than Jaime, who'd see how wrong it was, and that Jaime has a modern feminist understanding of consent and marital rape because he disapproved of Rhaella's violent sexual assaults, claims which I find wholly ridiculous. (It's a good point that Jaime is still pretty out of the loop though. He wouldn't even know that Ned had a surprise beheading after Joffrey promised mercy and blindsided everyone. When Ned's death came up with Cat, they both seemed to think Cersei was behind it.)

Anyway, I love the Roose Trollton moment of mentioning how sacred guest right is in the north. I'm sure he's having a private joke in his head even though Jaime has no way of knowing what the joke is. Yeah, yeah, the Freys were the hosts actually violating guest right, but I don't think someone who actually held guest right sacred would help someone else violate it either. 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Lady S.

[benteen]

Really fantastic chapter with three compelling characters.  Deplorable as he is, Book Roose is a fascinating character to read about.  Book Jaime is still my favorite character.

[John Potts]

On ‎29‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 2:10 PM, nodorothyparker said:

I think you can tell by the way Tywin words the offer to Tyrion about ruling Winterfell and the North "though your son by Sansa" that he knows damn good and well that Tyrion will never be lord there and doesn't much care.

Tyrion wouldn't be Lord anyway, any more than Prince Albert was King when Queen Victoria was Queen. This was a problem for Queens in the Medieval period, because wives were expected to be subservient to their husbands but Queens (Regnant) were supposed to be in charge. It's probably why Queen Elizabeth I never married - so long a she was single, SHE was indisputably in charge. Tyrion would never be the Lord in the North, his power would derive from the fact that he was married to the Lady of the North (and in time, father of the next Lord). Tywin probably reckons that Tyrion is canny enough to "advise" Sansa (and her potential sons) into doing the Lannisters' will.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion V

Tyrion and a few other noblemen are there to greet the three hundred Dornishmen who have come to King's Landing for Joffrey's wedding. Nine of the most important houses in Dorne are part of the Martell entourage and Tyrion is surprised when he realizes that Prince Oberyn has come in place of Prince Doran.

Tyrion tells Oberyn that Joffrey will be happy to receive his counsel, but privately thinks that the Dornishman's presence will lead to blood in the streets. 

Oberyn introduces the Dornishmen and women who have accompanied him including his paramour Ellaria Sand. Tyrion thinks about how Cersei and the other highborn ladies will likely take offense if Ellaria is permitted to have a seat at the high table. At the same time, he knows that they won't be able to get away with placing Ellaria at an insignificsnt table somewhere since this would only anger Oberyn. 

Oberyn comments to his entourage about how well they must be loved by Joffrey since Joffrey has sent his uncle the Imp to bring them to court. Bronn laughs out loud at this and Tyrion pretends to be amused the prince's comment.

Tyrion introduces the members of his party to the Dornishmen and they all then head towards the city. Tyrion thinks about Oberyn's reputation as they're riding. Oberyn is rumored to fight with poisoned weapons, he's been to the Free Cities, learned to be a poisoner, studied for awhile at the Citadel, and even rode with the Second Sons before forming his own company. Oberyn is said to be bisexual and has bastard daughters all over Dorne that people refer to as the Sand Snakes. As far as Tyrion knows, Oberyn has never fathered a son. 

Oberyn is also responsible for crippling the heir to Highgarden, and Tyrion thinks that there's no man in Westeros who would be less welcome at a Tyrell wedding.

Oberyn tells Tyrion that they met once before when Tyrion was a baby and Jaime and Cersei were about eight or nine. Oberyn and his sister Elia were visiting Casterly Rock and Tywin's wife had just died. Oberyn says that Tywin ignored them for the most part during their stay and left their entertainment up to Kevan. Tyrion remembers how his uncle Gerion once said that the best part of Tywin died when Joanna did and that he was never the same man again. Tyion thinks about how his birth was responsible for putting his mother in her grave.

Oberyn talks about how bored and unsatisfied he was with Casterly Rock and says that Tyrion was the biggest disappointment of all because he'd been expecting to see a monster rather than a baby. Oberyn remembers Cersei and Jaime taking him and Elia to see Tyrion in his nursery. When Oberyn comments to the twins that Tyrion doesn't look like much of a monster, Cersei replies that Tyrion killed her mother and proceeds to make her baby brother shriek in pain as she twists his cock. Jaime tells her to stop and Cersei's reply is that everyone says that Tyrion is going to die soon anyway, so it doesn't matter. Tyrion feels chilled by Oberyn's story and wonders why he told it to him. 

Oberyn asks Tyrion when justice will be served for Elia and her children and talks about how close he and Elia were growing up. Oberyn admits that he's a bloodthirsty man and says that he'll trample any Tyrells who get in his way. Tyrion takes a moment to remind Oberyn of the thousands of soldiers that are in King's Landing on Team Lannister/Tyrell versus the three hundred Dornishmen that Oberyn has brought with him. 

Oberyn tells Tyrion that he and Willas still correspond and says that Willas has never felt ill will towards Oberyn for what happened. Oberyn says that if anyone should be blamed for Willas's accident it should be Mace Tyrell who pushed his young son onto the tourney scene when he was too young.

The conversation turns to Loras Tyrell and Oberyn seems unimpressed with the tales of Loras's skill as a knight. Oberyn doesn't think tourney wins count for much and when he's told of Loras's valor during the Battle of the Blackwater, he gives the impression that he thinks Loras's feats are exaggerated. 

Before they part, Tyrion tells Oberyn about Chataya's and advises him to keep two of the girls by his side at all times. When Oberyn asks why, Tyrion reminds him that he said he wants to die with a breast in hand.

[Lady S.]

On 10/5/2016 at 10:25 AM, Avaleigh said:

Tyrion feels chilled by Oberyn's story and wonders why he told it to him. 

I'm still wondering that myself tbh. The only thing I can figure is that he's pointing out how much nicer his sister was than Tyrion's own (acting amused that Elia cooed over baby Tyrion) so Tyrion shouldn't let family loyalty get in the way of delivering justice for Elia. But mainly I just think Oberyn comes off as an asshole not really accomplishing anything to get his goal of justice for Elia.

Anyway, Willas keeping up a correspondence with Oberyn is the best proof that he's probably as good as his family says. Unlike Marg, Olenna, and Garlan, Oberyn has no reason to flatter him and should be biased against the Tyrells. He doesn't show any positive regard for Loras or any of the rest of them and we know Mace and Olenna do have Dornish prejudice and blame him for Willas's injury. (Interesting that Olenna blames Oberyn when it sounds like Mace bears some responsibility, which kinda disproves that image of a wise matriarch seeing clearly all the foolishness of men, especially her son that fandom likes to have of her.)

[Avaleigh]

What I found interesting in this chapter is the vague feeling of contempt Oberyn seems to have for Loras Tyrell. I get making the distinction between being a tourney fighter and someone who is seasoned in real battles, but the way he's dismissive of Loras proving his worth in an actual battle makes Oberyn come across as arrogant to me. 

I also wonder how old Willas was when he had his accident. I think of ten year old Selmy and thirteen/fourteen (?) year old Jaime riding in tourneys and it makes me wonder what the average age is to enter one. 

Is it odd that Myrcella isn't attending her brother's wedding if the Martells and Lannisters are trying to play ball with each other for sake of their alliance?

I can't recall if we get to know Ellaria at all in this book or if it's in the next two. 

I loved Bronn not troubling to hide his laughter even though the comment was at Tyrion's expense because it shows that he's still completely natural with Tyrion even though he's starting to move up in the world. 

Really looking forward to the weddings.

[Lady S.]

16 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Is it odd that Myrcella isn't attending her brother's wedding if the Martells and Lannisters are trying to play ball with each other for sake of their alliance?

I've wondered about that too. Plenty of historical royals got married or moved away to get married and then didn't have much to do with their homeland, but here they're all in the same country and distance isn't treated as an issue with Oberyn's travel to KL (especially considering they originally expected his crippled brother to make the journey). However, none of the Lannisters ever think it odd, including Tyrion, who made the alliance. It actually makes Cersei's anger over the betrothal almost understandable if she expected that Myrcella would totally belong to the Martells.

I don't recall Ellaria even having lines in this book, but she may have a little dialogue in the wedding chapters.

For some reason I thought Willas's age when he was injured was given in Sansa I, but looking back, it wasn't. If he was only 12 or so, it's even worse that Olenna only blames Oberyn (actually, looking back, she blames Oberyn and his maester, as if Oberyn sent his maester to poison Willas instead of provide medical care or something) after making a big deal out of not caring about Loras's tourney prowess and not sharing Mace's vain goals. I got the feeling Jaime was supposed on the young side winning a melee at 14 or whatever he said, just as he was the youngest Kingsguard ever, so I'd guess that 15/16 is normally the bare minimum for beginning a tourney career.

I took Bronn's chuckling as more showing that however much he likes Tyrion, they're not really friends, or else if Bronn considers them such then he's not a great friend because he's always a scummy rogue at heart. It's one thing for Jaime or Bronn himself to call Tyrion the Imp, but pretty much every other adult who does so means it to be derogatory with all the anti-dwarf prejudice that implies. Oberyn's speaking contemptuously of all those outside his own party, with the exception of Willas, and especially hates the Lannisters, so I don't think his mockery was just light-hearted teasing. I know I may tease my friends with insults because we both know it's not genuine, but I wouldn't find it funny if someone else deliberately insulted them and meant it as an insult. (Which isn't to say that Bronn owes his employer true friendship any more than Shae owes him unfeigned love, but Bronn is often assumed to care for him more than Shae did, and he does kinda owe his employer loyalty when on the job.)

ETA: Isn't it weird that Oberyn says my mother and her consort when telling the story of their visit to Casterly Rock? Why not my mother and father or simply my parents? No one with a ruling father would refer to their parents as my father and his consort instead of using the word mother. Was her consort actually his stepfather as in her first husband died or that she had her children with paramours and he was only their legal father? Did Oberyn just not care for his father, or what? Why do we not even know these people's names when we know all the other Great Lords and Ladies in their generation?

Edited October 7, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

I think the mention of his mother's consort was just an awkward way of mentioning how Dorne is different than the other kingdoms when it comes to women being allowed rule. I agree though that it was an odd choice of words. 

I think I was also responding to Oberyn's dig about Loras being Renly's little rose. I can't help but think that if some arrogant Lannister spoke about Daemon Sand that way that Oberyn would be all hot to trot and bristling. 

I also find it surprising that Jaime was the only one to have an appropriate reaction to Cersei's abuse of Tyrion. I feel like if I'd been a witness like Elia or Oberyn that I would have been unable to keep myself from saying something especially since the Martells were older. At least some sort of cry of shock or disgust especially since Elia thought Tyrion was cute. 

Agreed that Bronn and Tyrion aren't real friends, but I like that Bronn is always upfront about who he is because it's such a rare thing in King's Landing. Show Bronn seems like he's a little nicer than book Bronn and I feel like there was something of a genuine friendship there even though he was on Tyrion's payroll. I think part of the reason the Bronn/Jaime dynamic works so well for me is because they both cared for Tyrion. I may have hated their lame ass adventures in Dorne but I like that they were paired up and think Bronn is a great substitute for Ilyn Payne here.

[Lady S.]

6 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I think the mention of his mother's consort was just an awkward way of mentioning how Dorne is different than the other kingdoms when it comes to women being allowed rule. I agree though that it was an odd choice of words. 

I agree that's the most likely explanation. I feel like GRRM has done that plenty of other times, wording things awkwardly in a way no one would really phrase it. It just bugs me whenever I catch it, and there's also no good reason these people don't have names. 

Isn't it just that Jaime was the only one she would listen to? Oberyn doesn't give his own and Elia's reactions. I guess I pictured Elia being shocked, Oberyn being uncomfortable, Cersei not caring, and Jaime physically pulling her off and telling her to stop.

I liked Tyrion trying to build up Pod's confidence and offering him a (presumably non-sexual) gift. Most of the time he just gives the kid a hard time for his shyness.

[nodorothyparker]

I never took the consort phrasing to be more than one of Martin's unnecessarily formally awkward ways of titling something.   Pretty much everything we've gotten about Dorne up to this point has been second and third hand, so here's one of several tipoffs that they're very very different from the rest of the kingdoms.  

It makes a certain amount of sense to me that Myrcella and Trystan as her intended wouldn't be attending the wedding if Oberyn seriously believes he's there to enact some vengeance because the whole question of who's holding who as hostage could get really messy as I don't doubt that Cersei would look for any pretext to try to enact some plot to snatch her back.  It is curious though that none of the Lannisters never at least raise the question.

Oberyn is easily my favorite red herring of the entire series.  He's got a wicked reputation, he's a fun mix of witty and cocky, and he's finally someone showing up promising to knock the Lannisters down a peg who isn't named Stark or Baratheon or who seems likely to accidentally trip on his own sword in the attempt.  Of course, because this is a reread we know it mostly comes to a whole lot of nothing except for poisoning the Mountain but at this point in the story we can hope he's going to pull off something really interesting if we don't think too hard about the fact that he's spent the last 16 years pursuing the Westeros version of the rich kid backpacking through Europe lifestyle instead of vigorously pursuing the justice he claims he's so hungry for.  But the Dornish in general are apparently proponents of some of the slowest acting vengeance I've ever seen despite all of their claims of being so hot blooded.

I'm not sure why Oberyn tells that story to Tyrion either unless he's trying to just weird him out.  I admit I liked the show's placement of the telling better.  Here, it just comes off as incredibly odd on their initial meeting.  The show's version was incredibly chilling as it drove home how awful Cersei had been even so young and how Tyrion had never ever had a chance in her eyes at a time he looked likely to end up being killed for an accusation she had made and a show trial she had orchestrated.

[Avaleigh]

13 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

It makes a certain amount of sense to me that Myrcella and Trystan as her intended wouldn't be attending the wedding if Oberyn seriously believes he's there to enact some vengeance because the whole question of who's holding who as hostage could get really messy as I don't doubt that Cersei would look for any pretext to try to enact some plot to snatch her back.  It is curious though that none of the Lannisters never at least raise the question.

Oberyn is easily my favorite red herring of the entire series.  He's got a wicked reputation, he's a fun mix of witty and cocky, and he's finally someone showing up promising to knock the Lannisters down a peg who isn't named Stark or Baratheon or who seems likely to accidentally trip on his own sword in the attempt. Of course, because this is a reread we know it mostly comes to a whole lot of nothing except for poisoning the Mountain but at this point in the story we can hope he's going to pull off something really interesting if we don't think too hard about the fact that he's spent the last 16 years pursuing the Westeros version of the rich kid backpacking through Europe lifestyle instead of vigorously pursuing the justice he claims he's so hungry for.  But the Dornish in general are apparently proponents of some of the slowest acting vengeance I've ever seen despite all of their claims of being so hot blooded.

Yeah, it's the Lannisters who seem like they would jump on the opportunity to see for themselves that Myrcella is happy and not being mistreated. 

I think it might have even worked if Oberyn had said something about how it wasn't too much of a hardship for Myrcella to be told that she would be missing Joffrey's wedding. Maybe say something about how her only regret would be in not being able to see Tommen. 

If I had any disappointment with Oberyn on the show it was them choosing to not hint at the possibility that Oberyn poisoned Tywin. That was a favorite theory when I first read it because it felt so right to me. I wasn't expecting the show to flat out confirm it but I was hoping that we'd see them sharing wine together before the trial. Oh well.

[nodorothyparker]

Tywin died a pretty unambiguous death from a crossbow bolt to the gut so I guess that's one I've never really spent too much time thinking about, although I get why people would want it to be true.  Oberyn is such an entertaining character and he has a very legitimate grievance against Tywin and his underlings so you hope he's going to come away from Kings Landing having gotten at least some vengeance on the right people in a story where that so rarely seems to happen.  That fact that Tywin's corpse quickly becomes a rotting horror stinking up the place does lend some credence to the idea, but then I remember the story about the corpse of Henry VIII also quickly dissolving into a putrid mess and then I start to wonder about the Silent Sisters' preservation methods and yeah, just gonna stop there.

I loved show Oberyn.  He's one of a handful characters I never really had any issue with in their translation to screen.  My husband never made it as far as this book and has never understood my fondness for him when he was more of a catalyst than a character who really accomplished much in terms of the larger story.

[John Potts]

The "Oberyn poisoned Tywin" Theory is one I have no time for, because it makes no sense. Yes, Oberyn has a grudge against Tywin, but if all he wanted to do was kill Tywin, why risk his life fighting the Mountain? He'd probably be happy to see Tyrion executed and he only dies because he wants a public confession, not just a win. As for Tywin, I can't remember if it was Henry VIII or King John whose corpse exploded and his corpse wasn't left for hours with a gut wound. Sometimes (to paraphrase Freud) a stink is just a stink

[Avaleigh]

11 minutes ago, John Potts said:

The "Oberyn poisoned Tywin" Theory is one I have no time for, because it makes no sense. Yes, Oberyn has a grudge against Tywin, but if all he wanted to do was kill Tywin, why risk his life fighting the Mountain? He'd probably be happy to see Tyrion executed and he only dies because he wants a public confession, not just a win. As for Tywin, I can't remember if it was Henry VIII or King John whose corpse exploded and his corpse wasn't left for hours with a gut wound. Sometimes (to paraphrase Freud) a stink is just a stink

I think he risked his life fighting the Mountain because the Mountain assaulted Elia and killed at least one of her children. I also think that he was arrogant enough to think that it wasn't a huge risk for him to take the Mountain on. 

It isn't that I have such faith in the methods of the silent sisters. It's that everyone makes it seem like the strength of the smell is unusual, so I wonder why this occasion was different. Robert was wounded too and it did have a bad smell but it wasn't something that seemed like it caused as much comment. Joffrey's body didn't have that happen either.  

If Oberyn had won and Tyrion had been kept alive, it would have caused more chaos for Oberyn's enemies. From Oberyn's perspective it must look like they don't want Tyrion to be kept alive, so I can see why he didn't prefer to stand by and watch Tyrion being executed. 

All this being said, I don't actually think that the theory that Oberyn poisoned Tywin is true in the books. For one thing, how would this info even be conveyed? I can't see Ellaria ever saying anything. I also think that the show not hinting at it is more proof that it isn't a thing. I just thought it fit well and would be some decent payback, and think that Oberyn was shown to have the opportunity.

[Lady S.]

On 10/8/2016 at 7:14 PM, nodorothyparker said:

we can hope he's going to pull off something really interesting if we don't think too hard about the fact that he's spent the last 16 years pursuing the Westeros version of the rich kid backpacking through Europe lifestyle instead of vigorously pursuing the justice he claims he's so hungry for.  But the Dornish in general are apparently proponents of some of the slowest acting vengeance I've ever seen despite all of their claims of being so hot blooded.

Lol, that's an accurate take on it. It occurs to me that the actual Inigo Montoya was a child when his father died so of course he failed to avenge him at first. Oberyn was a grown man when Elia and her kids were killed, yet he still needed to wait around for 16 years. I guess he and Doran were waiting til a Targ invasion seemed likely because they weren't strong enough to start a war on their own. Yet beyond beyond a secret betrothal that Viserys didn't even know about, they did nothing to support the Targ siblings and had no back-up for the very real chance that Viserys and Dany both died. 

[nodorothyparker]

It's probably a discussion for the next book and while I do enjoy the world building that goes into what makes Dorne different from the rest of the seven kingdoms, it's always a bit of a head scratcher for me that the extent of Dorne's big revenge plan is to wait on the Targaryen siblings to grow up and do ... something without any guaranteed means of financing or support.  Both Dany and Viserys could have easily died among the Dothraki, for instance, and then what?  Wait around for an invitation to a royal wedding sometime in the unspecified future and hope to insert yourself in a trial by combat if the ruling family you have a murder grudge against turns out to be completely batshit with infighting?  

As much as I love Oberyn as a character, this is yet another case where he likely wouldn't have even gotten the relatively small amount of payback against the Mountain and the Lannisters that he did had the Lannisters not been consumed with fighting among themselves and been stupid enough to show everyone that with a very public show trial of one of their own.

[benteen]

Good chapter and good introduction to Oberyn.  It's strange but I always visualized Oberyn as looking like Rutger Hauer in Blade Runner when I read the book.

I think Willas was 13 when he was jousting but I'm probably wrong on that.  It speaks well of Willas that he never had any ill-will toward Oberyn for what happened and is big enough to avoid the stupid, petty feuds that fester around Westeros.

[Avaleigh]

Arya VII

Arya watches as the Brotherhood attack a sept that is being held by the Mummers. She notices Ned Dayne fighting and thinks that since he's only a little older than she is that she ought to have been allowed to fight as well. A bunch of the Mummers end up hanging for their crimes after the fighting is done. Arya feels angry that the Brotherhood didn't hang Sandor Clegane too and think about how they allowed him to go after taking away his gold. 

Arya notices that Lord Beric doesn't seem to sleep or eat apart from having the occasional cup of wine. Beric confirms that Thoros has brought him back from the dead six times, and Thoros says that each time has been more difficult and thinks that bringing Beric back a seventh time might be the end of both of them. Beric goes over the wounds he received each time he was killed and this prompts Arya to ask Thoros if he would be able to bring back a man without a head. 

Quote

“I have no magic, child. Only prayers. That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god’s own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord’s servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open. It was not me who raised him, my lady. It was the Lord. R’hllor is not done with him yet. Life is warmth, and warmth is fire, and fire is God’s and God’s alone.”

Arya felt tears well in her eyes. Thoros used a lot of words, but all they meant was no, that much she understood.

The subject turns to Arya's ransom and Arya is concerned that Robb won't want to pay ransom money for her. Arya starts going over all of the flaws she perceives in herself and thinks about how different she is from Sansa. She mentions that Septa Mordane used to say that she had the hands of a blacksmith. Thoros assures Arya that Robb will pay to get her back. When Arya asks for specifics on what will happen if Robb doesn't pay up, Beric swears on his honor as a knight that he'll either send her to his castle Blackhaven or back to Lady Smallwood. 

Gendry tells Beric that he wants to be of use as a blacksmith for the outlaws, but Beric says that he doesn't have the money to pay for a smith and tells Gendry that he'd do better to work for Lord Tully at Riverrun. Gendry says that he's never been paid for his work and simply asks to be able to have a place to eat and sleep in addition to doing his job. Beric asks Gendry why he would choose to stay with them and Gendry admits that he liked what Beric said about them being King Robert's men. Lem warns Gendry that he'll end up in a noose like the rest of them one day. 

The Hound intrudes on the scene after Gendry is knighted by Beric, and Anguy draws his bow and tells Sandor that he must either be mad or drunk to have followed them. Sandor says that they didn't leave him enough money to get any wine and tells them that he's there to get his gold back. Beric promises to pay him back once the war is over and admits that the gold has already been spent. 

Arya and the Hound exchange a few words and she tells him that she'll kill him and his brother too the next time she gets the chance. The Hound's eyes darken and he tells her that this isn't going to happen. 

The Hound tells the men of the Brotherhood that they're no better than common thieves and Lem says that they're no different than the lions or wolves who rob villages and call it foraging. The Hound glares at all of the men for a moment before leaving and the discussion turns to how he ended up acquiring so much gold. Anguy says that he won most of the gold in the tourney at King's Landing and Thoros guesses that without the Lannisters, the gold was likely all that Sandor had. 

Before she goes to sleep, Arya takes out the coin that Jaqen gave her and remembers how strong she felt when she was the ghost in Harrenhal who could kill with a whisper. She goes over the names she has on her list and realizes that she can't remember the faces of everyone on it. 

The next morning Gendry apologizes to Arya and she thinks to herself how Gendry could have made swords for Robb at Riverrun. She asks him why she should care if he wants to be some stupid outlaw who ends up getting himself hanged and tells him that she's going to go to Riverrun to be with her brother. 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Avaleigh

[nodorothyparker]

Man, Arya asking if Thoros can resurrect a body without a head just kills me every time.  The practicalities of that would almost certainly be awful beyond imagining as we'll see with Lady Stoneheart, but at that moment she's just a little girl wishing her father back alive.

It doesn't sound like the BWB is any more worried about the specifics of charges as pretext to execute the Mummers here than they were in the previous chapter when people were just throwing stuff out there to try to pin on the Hound.  They obviously do do some good as with their using the Hound's gold to buy foodstuffs for the peasants and giving silver to brothers of the burned sept but the Hound isn't wrong that they're still basically thieves stealing whatever they can and leaving IOUs that no one will ever be able to collect upon.  I am curious what the Hound really thought was going to happen showing back up to an armed camp and demanding his money back, and Beric comparing him to a dog without a master or kennel now that he has no one to serve feels like it could be foreshadowing for the Hound to go all broken man or worse.

I can sort of see how to Gendry serving one outfit is as good as another and that at least by signing on the BWB he can think he's serving someone doing good.  He does come off as awfully naive though being so quick to believe the Hound is guilty of anything anyone is accusing him of even though he just saw the trial and knows this is how these things are judged.  I know Tom Sevenstrings singing "The Rains of Castamere" is probably a setup to make sure we're familiar with it well before the Red Wedding, but it's still amusing in light of how much bitching some of these guys have been doing about Lannister army

Arya not being able to remember half the faces of the names on her list feels like a commentary that her list is getting too long and that she's seen too much and becoming too callous about wishing death on everyone.  That doesn't make me cheer for her as a badass as much as it makes me sad for what is still a fairly young girl.