Avaleigh September 19, 2017 Share September 19, 2017 Tyrion X Tyrion goes over his options and wonders how he should proceed. He considers simply denying everything or pinning the blame on Sansa and Ser Dontos. He thinks about just confessing and feels that life on the Wall might not be so bad especially since there's a brothel nearby. He also thinks about Oberyn's offer and wonders if he should risk taking such a gamble. He doesn't like the idea of confessing to something that he didn't do and almost wishes that he had committed the crime since it looks as though he's going to have to pay for it anyway. When Ser Addam and the gold cloaks arrive to collect Tyrion to escort him to the trial, Tyrion takes a moment to ask Podrick if he thinks that he's guilty. Pod can't bring himself to give Tyrion an answer and Tyrion thinks to himself that he's a doomed man. He thanks Pod for his service and tells him that he's been a good squire. As Tyrion is taken to the throne room, Addam gives the impression that he too thinks that Tyrion is guilty of kinslaying. When they arrive at the throne room, Tyrion is dismayed to see that Shae is the final witness who will speak against him. Shae tells the court that Sansa and Tyrion plotted together to murder Joffrey. She says that they began to plan the murder after Robb's death and claims that Tyrion wanted Joffrey dead so that he could have the throne for himself. According to Shae, Tyrion's long term plan was to murder Cersei and Tywin next so that he could become Tommen's Hand. Shae says that the next step would have been to kill Tommen before he came of age so that he could seize the crown for himself. Oberyn asks Shae how she could possibly know all of this and Shae says that in addition to overhearing Sansa and Tyrion conspire with each other that she was also Tyrion's mistress from the time she came to King's Landing. Shae claims that Tyrion forced her to become a prostitute and that she only became Tyrion's mistress after he arranged to have her fiance put in the front line of the van where he was killed in battle. She says that Tyrion then threatened to give her to Shagga and Timett if she didn't become is mistress. She says that Tyrion treated her cruelly and would force her to call him "my giant of Lannister." Nearly everyone in the throne room begins to laugh after Shae says this and Tyrion burns with resentment after he thinks about the fact that he helped save the people in the city during the Battle of the Blackwater. Tywin is the only one who isn't laughing and Tyrion soons shouts over the laughter that he's ready to confess. Tyrion asks them to get the lying Shae out of his sight and Shae looks nervous as the gold cloaks come to take her away. She briefly meets Tyrion's eyes but he's unable to read her expression. He wonders about what Cersei must have promised Shae and guesses that it will only be a matter of time before Shae is forced to entertain the gold cloaks in their barracks. Tyrion says that he's innocent of the crime of killing Joffrey but confesses that he is indeed guilty of being a dwarf. He says that he's been on trial for being a dwarf his entire life and Tywin asks him if he has anything to say in his defense. “Nothing but this: I did not do it. Yet now I wish I had.” He turned to face the hall, that sea of pale faces. “I wish I had enough poison for you all. You make me sorry that I am not the monster you would have me be, yet there it is. I am innocent, but I will get no justice here. You leave me no choice but to appeal to the gods. I demand trial by battle.” Cersei tells the court that Tyrion has the right to have a trial by battle and says that Gregor Clegane will fight to represent Joffrey. Mace Tyrell asks Tyrion if he has a champion to defend him and Oberyn takes this moment to get to his feet and say that he'll be Tyrion's champion. The throne room erupts with noise at this development and there's all sorts of shocked chatter before the gold cloaks restore order. Tyrion is pleased to see a hint of doubt creep into Cersei's expression and Tywin seems visibly angry before regaining his composure. Tywin says that the issue will be settled tomorrow and says that he washes his hands of the situation before exiting the throne room. Once he's back in his tower cell, Tyrion thinks about how much trouble he's caused for his father because either outcome of the trial will cause Tywin problems down the road. Tyrion wonders if Shae will miss him at all once he's dead. Tyrion sleeps surprisingly well that night and even has an appetite the next morning. After he finishes his breakfast he gets Ser Addam's permission to attend Oberyn before the battle. Oberyn is drinking wine and offers Tyrion a cup as he gets himself ready for the battle. Tyrion asks Oberyn if he should be drinking before the fight and Oberyn replies that he always drinks before a battle. Tyrion says that this is the sort of thing that could get them both killed but Oberyn says that Tyrion is innocent so they shouldn't have anything to worry about. They talk for a bit about what a tough prick the Mountain is but Oberyn doesn't seem impressed with the Mountain as a fighter and tells Tyrion that this isn't the first time he's had to fight a large man. Oberyn's confidence makes Tyrion feel better but he starts feeling nervous again once he sees that Oberyn plans on fighting the Mountain with a spear. He also notices that the point of the spear seems to be coated in some sort of substance. Tyrion thinks it might be poison but decides that he'd rather not know what it is. Oberyn tells Tyrion that he should come with him to Sunspear after the battle and also invites the Lady of Winterfell to come along. Tyrion agrees that it will be nice to visit Dorne and decides that he's not going to get into the fact that he doesn't know where the hell Sansa is. Oberyn says that Tyrion should plan on making a lengthy visit and says that Queen Myrcella will need the wise counsel of her uncle. If Varys had his little birds listening, Oberyn was giving them a ripe earful. “I believe I will have that cup of wine,” said Tyrion. Queen Myrcella? It would have been more tempting if only he did have Sansa tucked beneath his cloak. If she declared for Myrcella over Tommen, would the north follow? What the Red Viper was hinting at was treason. Could Tyrion truly take up arms against Tommen, against his own father? Cersei would spit blood. It might be worth it for that alone. Oberyn reminds Tyrion of the conversation they had about their first meeting and gets into the story of how his mother was looking to secure marriages for himself and Elia. They traveled to Starfall, the Shield Islands, the Arbor, Crakehall, and Oldtown before they finally made it to Casterly Rock. Oberyn says that he spent most of the trip mocking Elia's various suitors and felt that most of them were unsuitable. Baelor Hightower was the only suitor of Elia's that seemed like he had a chance of winning her over and Elia seemed like she was halfway to being in love with him. Baelor was rich and handsome but he ended up farting once in front of Elia and Oberyn. Oberyn promptly saddled Baelor with the nickname Baelor Breakwind and Elia could never take him seriously after that. These days Baelor is still handsome and rich and is known by the nickname Baelor Brightsmile. Tyrion can't help but wonder how many lives might have been spared if Baelor hadn't farted. The conversation turns to the friendship between Oberyn's mother and Joanna and how they wanted Cersei for Oberyn and Jaime for Elia. The Martell siblings were in Oldtown when they heard the news of Tyrion's birth and Joanna's death. The Martells decided to go on to Casterly Rock as planned but were greeted coldly by Tywin. Tywin rejected the offer of Oberyn for Cersei saying that Cersei was intended for Rhaegar. He also refused the idea of Jaime and Elia and offered Tyrion for Elia instead knowing that the Martells would be insulted. Oberyn feels that Elia treatment and death during the sack of King's Landing was payback for Elia ending up with Rhaegar instead of Cersei. Oberyn finishes getting ready and says that today is the day that Elia and her children will finally get the justice they deserve. Hundreds of people have shown up to see who will win the battle and Tyrion thinks to himself that they ought to have held the event in the dragonpit so that they could sell tickets and pay off the cost of Joffrey's wedding and funeral. Many people have brought their children to see the spectacle but Tyrion is relieved to see that Tommen isn't one of them. Ellaria seems nervous now that she's seeing the Mountain in the flesh but Oberyn still seems confident and nonchalant about everything. As Tyrion takes in the Mountain's appearance he suddenly wishes that he had Bronn or Jaime fighting for him. Oberyn barely has any armor on and his helm is basically the equivalent of a half helm. The High Septon says a prayer to the gods to give strength to the man whose cause is just and then the battle commences. Oberyn quickly advances on the Mountain and asks him if he knows who he is. Gregor replies that Oberyn is some dead man and Oberyn tells the Mountain that he's the brother of Princess Elia. Gregor seems like he can barely remember who Oberyn is talking about so Oberyn reminds him that he raped Elia before killing her and her children. The Mountain asks if Oberyn came to talk or fight and Oberyn admits that he wants to hear Gregor confess. Oberyn moves quickly and repeatedly tries to jab at the Mountain with his spear. He strikes him multiple times but isn't able to pierce through the Mountain's armor. The Mountain fights in silence but Oberyn continues to talk about the Mountain's crimes against Elia and her children. They go on this way for a long time and Ellaria comments that Oberyn is playing with his opponent. Tyrion replies that the Mountain is too big to be anyone's toy. As the men fight, members of the audience start getting closer to the fight so that they can get a better view. The knights of the Kingsguard try to keep the crowd back but there are hundreds of people so there's only so much that they can do. The Mountain begins to get frustrated with Oberyn's words and tells him to shut his mouth. He gets enraged when Oberyn won't stop and intensifies his attack so that Oberyn has to drop his spear and dive out of the way of Gregor's massive sword. People in the crowd start screaming and when Oberyn dives out of the way, the Mountain's sword ends up hacking off the arm of a stableboy. The boy ends up screaming and the noise irritates Gregor so much that he cuts the boy's head off to silence his screams. Most of the spectators begin to flee at this point and Oberyn gets a spear back in his hand so that they can continue fighting. He goes back to taunting Gregor with the truth about what he did to Elia and her children and the Mountain says that all of Oberyn's talking is making his head hurt. Oberyn says that he's going to make the Mountain say Elia's name. The sun comes out and Oberyn is able to gain an advantage and thrust his spear into Gregor's armpit. Gregor begins to stumble and it looks as though his knee is buckling. Tyrion prays for the Mountain to fall down and die. Oberyn thrusts his spear into the Mountain's knee this time until the Mountain falls face down onto the ground. Gregor's sword falls from his hands and he rolls over onto his back. The Mountain pushes himself onto his elbow and Oberyn takes a leap so that he can thrust his spear right into his opponent's belly. Cersei shrieks in fury at this point and Oberyn warns the Mountain that if he doesn't say Elia's name that he'll haunt him through all of the seven hells. Tyrion comments to Ellaria that he's feeling more innocent by the moment. Oberyn has Gregor's sword now and places a foot on Gregor's chest as he holds his sword. He again demands for the Mountain to say Elia's name and as he seems to be bringing the sword down on Gregor, the Mountain uses his hand to knock Oberyn off of his feet. Oberyn loses his grip on the sword and soon he and the Mountain are both down on the ground. The Mountain says Elia's name and admits that he killed her screaming baby. The Mountain gouges out Oberyn's eyes and tells Oberyn that he raped Elia. He tells Oberyn that he then smashed in Elia's head and proceeds to do the same thing to Oberyn. Ellaria screams as this happens and Tyrion pukes his breakfast up on the spot. He never heard his father speak the words that condemned him. Perhaps no words were necessary. I put my life in the Red Viper’s hands, and he dropped it. When he remembered, too late, that snakes had no hands, Tyrion began to laugh hysterically. Tyrion realizes that he's being escorted to one of the black cells rather than his tower cell and understands that he's a dead man. 3 Link to comment
YaddaYadda September 19, 2017 Share September 19, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Avaleigh said: I don't have much for this chapter. I was as surprised as Pyp and Grenn were when Jon left Pyp in charge. It also made me think about how Grenn bites it on the show. I hope Grenn and Pyp both end up living. I kind of side eyed Jon totally lifting Thorne off of his feet but like the suggestion that this is the Jon version of waking the dragon. When Janos came onto the scene at first I was like "Who is this pompous douchebag? Oh yeah!" I kind of forgot about his character. I'm looking forward to the "Edd, fetch a block." line more than ever now. Of course Thorne would quickly for a friendship with an asshole like that. I keep forgetting that book Tormund has sons. I wonder if they're all alive as of the fifth book. I can't recall. I like that Jon didn't like the idea of equating Ygritte with one of the women down in Mole's Town and how he owned up to the fact that he cared for her. Tormund also has a daughter. I think he loses two sons. One he loses to the cold and he is raised as a wight. And that's like the most emotional we see Tormund. And the other dies when Stannis's forces rush the wildling camp. And how can you forget Janos Slynt? 4 hours ago, Lady S. said: If you're thinking Targs have super human strength, I don't think that was an intentional hint. This is the same chapter where someone died from a wildling arrow on the ground. Not a giant bow-and-arrow like on the show, mind you, human wildling archers were somehow shooting targets (mostly scarecrow, but at least the one human brother) on top of a Wall 700 fucking feet high. GRRM has always had a hard time with the mundane limitations of the physical world. Wolf blood and blood of the dragon probably make for a dangerous combination, but I'd say Jon reminds me of his maternal family more than his bio father here. Rhaegar was never known for being hot-tempered or emotionally volatile but Lyanna isn't compared to Arya all those times just for their looks and horse-riding ability. The whole scene he feels very much like a Stark to me with his honesty and impatience for this bullshit. This is the only episode of questionable strength but I'd say we have seen Jon's inner dragon-direwolf be woken before like the previous time he tried to kill Thorne for calling Ned a traitor or in his earliest days at Castle Black when he jumped into a 4-on-1 fight because one of the other boys called his mother a whore. I don't necessarily mean waking the dragon is having super human strength. And I don't know that Viserys is a very good reference for it. But there is another instance where Jon basically blacks out and beats the tar out of Iron Emmett even though he yielded. He doesn't even realize what he did until it's done. And if I had to compare Jon in those instances to anyone in his family, it might be his uncle Brandon, not Lyanna. I stumbled upon something in a re-read of AGOT that sort of blew my mind a bit with regard to the whole waking the dragon. About the Tyrion chapter, Oberyn will forever be one of my favorite characters, so what a waste. In the end, he accomplished nothing and now we've got FrankenGregor which might be worst. I did love the side history we got about the trip Oberyn took with his mother and sister, but I thought the whole thing was weird. Why would she go on this grand tour if she and Joanna were "scheming" to have their children marry, and why would she bring the proposal to Tywin when his wife is barely cold in the ground. That sounds like such a diplomatic faux-pas. Like who would be receptive to a marriage proposal when they've just lost their spouse whom they allegedly loved deeply. Tywin is one of the very few people that we know of who actually married someone he loved, so I don't know what the Princess of Dorne was expecting out of this meeting. The whole thing is just bizarre. Edited September 19, 2017 by YaddaYadda 4 Link to comment
screamin September 19, 2017 Share September 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said: About the Tyrion chapter, Oberyn will forever be one of my favorite characters, so what a waste. In the end, he accomplished nothing and now we've got FrankenGregor which might be worst. I did love the side history we got about the trip Oberyn took with his mother and sister, but I thought the whole thing was weird. Why would she go on this grand tour if she and Joanna were "scheming" to have their children marry, and why would she bring the proposal to Tywin when his wife is barely cold in the ground. That sounds like such a diplomatic faux-pas. Like who would be receptive to a marriage proposal when they've just lost their spouse whom they allegedly loved deeply. Tywin is one of the very few people that we know of who actually married someone he loved, so I don't know what the Princess of Dorne was expecting out of this meeting. The whole thing is just bizarre. Given the limitations of pseudo-medieval communications and travel, the voyage had no doubt been arranged long before Joanna died. As for giving the children a view of possible matches, I'd say it's understandable that given the comparably gentle way the Dorne appear to raise children, the Princess would want to at least allow her children the feeling of having a choice of suitors...but that she was expecting the Lannister children to be the main attraction, and that one or the other child would settle for a Lannister. I have a feeling that Joanna overplayed the attractiveness of her children to the princess, because she had just discovered their incestuous attraction for each other and was desperate to get one or the other away from Casterly Rock and decorously married to someone NOT their sibling before Tywin realized the situation and gave them one of his 'sharp lessons.' No doubt Joanna was expecting to convince Tywin to agree, but she died giving birth, the Princess arrived as planned, and I don't think it was such a faux pas to broach what is essentially a political business inquiry to Tywin (possibly one that she'd expected Joanna to have laid the ground for already.) I don't think his answer to them would have been different in six months or a year...he wanted Rhaegar for Cersei, and Elia was known to be sickly, hence not the most desirable brood mare for a dynasty...not to mention Tywin's a control freak who would not want Jaime to be fostered at Dorne, as was apparently the plan. Besides, why should the princess have waited six months or a year of Elia's maidenhood waiting for Tywin to stop mourning while other desirable marriage prospects go by? She found someone more high ranking eventually (and if you believe Oberyn, Tywin never got over that.) Edited September 19, 2017 by screamin 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh September 20, 2017 Share September 20, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, YaddaYadda said: Tormund also has a daughter. I think he loses two sons. One he loses to the cold and he is raised as a wight. And that's like the most emotional we see Tormund. And the other dies when Stannis's forces rush the wildling camp. And how can you forget Janos Slynt? I don't necessarily mean waking the dragon is having super human strength. And I don't know that Viserys is a very good reference for it. But there is another instance where Jon basically blacks out and beats the tar out of Iron Emmett even though he yielded. He doesn't even realize what he did until it's done. And if I had to compare Jon in those instances to anyone in his family, it might be his uncle Brandon, not Lyanna. I stumbled upon something in a re-read of AGOT that sort of blew my mind a bit with regard to the whole waking the dragon. About the Tyrion chapter, Oberyn will forever be one of my favorite characters, so what a waste. In the end, he accomplished nothing and now we've got FrankenGregor which might be worst. I did love the side history we got about the trip Oberyn took with his mother and sister, but I thought the whole thing was weird. Why would she go on this grand tour if she and Joanna were "scheming" to have their children marry, and why would she bring the proposal to Tywin when his wife is barely cold in the ground. That sounds like such a diplomatic faux-pas. Like who would be receptive to a marriage proposal when they've just lost their spouse whom they allegedly loved deeply. Tywin is one of the very few people that we know of who actually married someone he loved, so I don't know what the Princess of Dorne was expecting out of this meeting. The whole thing is just bizarre. I meant that I forgot about Janos going to the Wall. I was like "Who is this dude who thinks he has all of this authority and then when he introduced himself I was like, 'Oh, duh.'" I think it's strange that we don't know the name of the mother of Doran, Oberyn, and Elia. What's the big deal on telling us? What was Tywin's issue about Elia being the eventual Lady of Casterly Rock? How is Lysa a better deal than Elia? Especially when Tywin knows that his wife would have approved? Would Jaime have for sure been fostered at Sunspear or was the cabin in the Martell's ship only prepared just in case Cersei ended up going with them? I thought Oberyn was carless and stupid in terms of his fight with the Mountain. The show makes it more apparent but this guy basically exercised next to no caution. I don't get why the Princess of Dorne was so insistent on approaching Tywin while he was still grieving. I wonder why Rhaegar felt compelled to marry Elia if his feelings for her were only lukewarm. Even if he had pressure from his father, surely there were other women who might have been considered. to be more or less on the same level. Ashara, Catelyn, one of the Hightower daughters, etc. I can see why Joanna was gung ho on Dorne because not only does she have a nice relationship with the Princess of Dorne but I think it would appeal to Tywin's ambitions to have his children marry a prince or princess. I also think Joanna might have had her own reasons for not being enthusiastic about having Cersei marry into the Targaryen family. IMO that's one of the intriguing questions. Why wasn't Joanna on the same page as Tywin when it comes to having Cersei marry Rhaegar. I think it's fairly certain that this wasn't her preference and more than once we get the impression that Tywin greatly valued his wife's opinion. Regarding the rest of the chapter, I remembered that the Mountain cut off the arm of a stable boy but I didn't remember the part about him cutting off the kid's head so that he'd stop crying. Jesus, this guy is awful. His reaction to being assaulted by truthful statements just shows what a meathead he is. I did like Cersei's scream of fury when she thought that Oberyn had killed the Lannister's most monstrous guard. I also thought that it was perfect to have Tyrion vomit at the moment of Oberyn's death only I think it would have made more sense to have Tyrion drinking more heavily than usual that morning. It definitely seems like Elia would have had a happier life with Baelor Hightower. Show!Gregor got off easy in comparison to his book counterpart. It seems like the Gregorstein on the show hasn't had to really suffer. What can those small folk have been thinking to get closer and closer to the fighting as it progressed? I didn't understand why the Kingsguard where the only people attempting to hold them back. The goldcloaks should have been helping with that too. Edited September 20, 2017 by Avaleigh Changing Casterly Rock to Sunspear 3 Link to comment
YaddaYadda September 20, 2017 Share September 20, 2017 44 minutes ago, Avaleigh said: I meant that I forgot about Janos going to the Wall. I was like "Who is this dude who thinks he has all of this authority and then when he introduced himself I was like, 'Oh, duh.'" ah! got ya! His death is one of the sweetest things in ADWD. 46 minutes ago, Avaleigh said: I think it's strange that we don't know the name of the mother of Doran, Oberyn, and Elia. What's the big deal on telling us? What was Tywin's issue about Elia being the eventual Lady of Casterly Rock? How is Lysa a better deal than Elia? Especially when Tywin knows that his wife would have approved? Would Jaime have for sure been fostered at Sunspear or was the cabin in the Martell's ship only prepared just in case Cersei ended up going with them? I don't know if her name matters all that much. I'd be more interested in knowing who her consort was to see what House married into the Martell House. I mean we do know the name of every single woman Walder Frey married, the names of every single one of his children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren and who those guys married. I'd like details like that for the other Houses. About Tywin and his would be Elia prejudice, she was a whole 9-10 years older than Jaime. When she met him at Casterly Rock, he was 8 years old at the most. Not for nothing, but the age difference for someone like Tywin might mean that he loses influence over his son depending on when they marry. I think we have a pretty good example going with Tommen and Margaery. If Jaime marries Elia very young (they'd have to wait for consummation), considering that he lost his mother, Elia might be able to wield a lot of influence and I don't see Tywin wanting that. That's at least my take on the situation, and maybe we'll find out more from Doran at some point. And Lysa was a very different person before her unrequited love with LF, the forced abortion, being forced into a marriage with someone who was much older than her father and some 5 pregnancies (I think) that resulted in stillbirths and miscarriages. She got kicked in the teeth a lot. (I'm also aware of what she did to LF when he was drugged up after his duel with Brandon) 54 minutes ago, Avaleigh said: I wonder why Rhaegar felt compelled to marry Elia if his feelings for her were only lukewarm. Even if he had pressure from his father, surely there were other women who might have been considered. to be more or less on the same level. Ashara, Catelyn, one of the Hightower daughters, etc. One of the things I always forget is that Elia is a descendant of the first Daenerys. So her drop of dragonblood might have been the biggest selling point there was for her mother. Aerys had sent Steffon Baratheon to find a bride of Valyrian blood for his son, so Rhaegar may not have had a say at all in who he was going to marry. Plus Rhaella and the Princess of Dorne were friends, so that may have factored in somehow, although I don't know how much Aerys listened to his wife. 1 hour ago, Avaleigh said: Why wasn't Joanna on the same page as Tywin when it comes to having Cersei marry Rhaegar. I think it's fairly certain that this wasn't her preference and more than once we get the impression that Tywin greatly valued his wife's opinion. Aerys had a fixation on Joanna though, so maybe she didn't want her very beautiful daughter anywhere near that situation until Aerys was dead and buried? It's also things like this that make me wonder if Tywin had a hand in the Defiance of Duskendale. His policies certainly did not help the situation any. At Duskendale, Tywin is already saying that Rhaegar would make a better king and he is ready to destroy the place with Aerys inside the walls. If Aerys dies, there's nothing stopping Tywin from going to Rhaegar with the Cersei marriage proposal. I don't know that we will ever find out though. 1 hour ago, Avaleigh said: Regarding the rest of the chapter, I remembered that the Mountain cut off the arm of a stable boy but I didn't remember the part about him cutting of the kid's head so that he'd stop crying. Jesus, this guy is awful. His reaction to being assaulted by truthful statements just shows what a meathead he is. I did like Cersei's scream of fury when she thought that Oberyn had killed the Lannister's most monstrous guard. Gregor Clegane and his men as well as Amory Lorch, (the Brave Companions that were brought from overseas) are what nightmares are made of. And these degenerates are (or were) ALL Tywin's men. What does that say about him as a person? 3 Link to comment
nodorothyparker September 20, 2017 Share September 20, 2017 I quite enjoy Tyrion's thoughts at the beginning here trying to talking himself into taking the black, that he probably wouldn't make much of a ranger but he might do okay as a clever man as Mormont once suggested. And at least he'd be permanently away from Cersei. Of course he has no idea of the chaos going on at the Wall at the moment that his shipment of Janos Slynt up there is having at least a hand in. As fun as it might be to speculate how Tyrion might have made out in the Nights Watch, this does seem like it would have been the far preferable option to the big public trial that ends with Shae so terribly humiliating Tyrion and Tyrion ranting about his lifetime of awful treatment at Tywin's hands and his wish to poison everyone present that makes the Lannisters as a ruling family look so completely unhinged. I still can't read any of these chapters without wondering what the hell Tywin was thinking ever letting it get to this point. The fact that they're so publicly devouring one of their own while Cersei gloats is on full display for any enemies that might be inclined to make something of it, like say the family that's already murdered one child king. Oberyn Martell is entertaining, but he may go down as one of literary fiction's greatest much ado about nothing characters in terms of achieving any real sort of vengeance or accomplishing anything he set out to do. I get that he was desperate for his Inigo Montoya moment and was holding out trying to land Tywin as the big fish in what happened to Elia and her babies, but it made him careless just minutes after insisting that he did know what he was doing. I wondered too about the princess of Dorne deciding to forge on ahead in her marry my kids tour to a home freshly in mourning. I don't know that we really know enough about how these things are normally handled in this society to be able to fairly judge if this was at all unusual though. High born marriage was essentially a business arrangement, after all, and had the Dornish princess been dealing with anyone who wasn't Tywin Lannister, it might have still come off okay. Knowing what the twins were up to even as children and that Joanna knew about it, we probably can speculate a little here that making at least one of those marriages might have nipped the twincest in the bud and saved the kingsdoms the entire succession crisis. But of course, Tywin couldn't know that and he was already spinning plans to marry Cersei to a Targaryen prince. He probably also wanted a brood mare for his golden child heir who wasn't already known to be frail or several years older than he was. I do love Tyrion's line in thinking about how he had placed his life in Oberyn's hands "When he remembered, too late, that snakes have no hands." 3 Link to comment
Lady S. September 20, 2017 Share September 20, 2017 1 hour ago, screamin said: Besides, why should the princess have waited six months or a year of Elia's maidenhood waiting for Tywin to stop mourning while other desirable marriage prospects go by? She found someone more high ranking eventually (and if you believe Oberyn, Tywin never got over that.) Jaime was 8 so Elia's maiden years would have involved waiting in any case, either with a long betrothal or an unconsummated marriage. We know Tywin's answer wouldn't change with time, but the Martells obviously thought he might be amenable. When he'd been that rude as a host so far, they could have realized Joanna's death really changed matters and decided to try their luck later. Not like betrothal negotiations couldn't be done by ravenmail, so while I can understand not wanting the whole visit to be a bust, it was hardly a now or never moment. Having the top marriage pick be a kid half the age of his intended bride really makes it seem that time was not of the essence for Elia's marriage. As it is, she and Rhaegar would have both been in their early 20s when they wed, so that further makes it look like her family was in no great rush. 1 minute ago, Avaleigh said: I think it's strange that we don't know the name of the mother of Doran, Oberyn, and Elia. What's the big deal on telling us? I wonder why Rhaegar felt compelled to marry Elia if his feelings for her were only lukewarm. Even if he had pressure from his father, surely there were other women who might have been considered. to be more or less on the same level. Ashara, Catelyn, one of the Hightower daughters, etc. I can see why Joanna was gung ho on Dorne because not only does she have a nice relationship with the Princess of Dorne but I think it would appeal to Tywin's ambitions to have his children marry a prince or princess. I also think Joanna might have had her own reasons for not being enthusiastic about having Cersei marry into the Targaryen family. IMO that's one of the intriguing questions. Why wasn't Joanna on the same page as Tywin when it comes to having Cersei marry Rhaegar. I think it's fairly certain that this wasn't her preference and more than once we get the impression that Tywin greatly valued his wife's opinion. The big deal is GRRM doesn't give a shit. Just like Ned Stark's mother remained unnamed until the World Book family trees and people came up with all kinds of theories attaching significance to this unknown fact. No significance, he just didn't bother. (We still don't know how/when she died or why she is never mentioned once in the main series concerning Stark backstory, because he just didn't bother.) With Oberyn's mother it's even more glaring because she was a ruler in her own right, like Tywin or Jon Arryn or Steffon Baratheon, etc. The only head of a Great House whose name we don't know from that pre-Rebellion generation is also the only female head of a Great House and most of those named male contemporaries have more of a backstory than she does too. GRRM plays the Dead Fantasy Mother trope straight far more often than he doesn't. I doubt Rhaegar would have loved Ashara or any other eligible lady better than Elia. It's only the Lannisters and JonConn who think he must have thought Elia wasn't good enough, and compared to such I'd actually consider Barristan an objective source. He thought Rhaegar may not have had it in him to be truly happy, but I think he would have been at least more content with Elia if she'd been capable of giving him 3 heads of the dragon and he believed they could fulfill the prophecy together. While there was probably genuine romance involved with Lyanna, I don't think he'd be intent on marrying for love without some feeling of prophetic destiny. See, I feel pretty certain Joanna would have wanted Jaime/Elia, not Cersei/Oberyn. Oberyn even says it could just have been her marriage and mentions only one cabin berth. I think it likely she did wanted Jaime in that cabin to separate the twins. No matter how much Tywin valued her opinion he still had final say and there's no way he would have given up his dream of a royal grandchild for a match with Oberyn. The Martells had princely status but I doubt Tywin saw that as more than a meaningless honorific, since if they were above the other lordly houses that would make them higher than the Lannisters. Oberyn was a landless second son closer to a third son thanks to equal primogeniture. Elia was an only daughter and older than Oberyn so her marriage would have been more important for her mother, as seen by the fact that Oberyn never even needed to take a wife. And while Tywin might be persuaded to let his son stay in Dorne, knowing he'd return with Elia to the Rock when he came of age, I don't think he'd want his only daughter living her entire adult life in a land known for sexual freedom. I know it's only a dream but seeing as asoiaf dreams often have more significance than real dreams and that Jaime's dream is the most we've ever seen of Joanna (because of the whole dead mothers thing) I do put some stock in her crying over Tywin's failed dreams for the twins and not mentioning any differing dreams of her own. Ignoring the dream, I still wouldn't expect someone who knew Tywin as well as Joanna must have to think Oberyn could compare to his dynastic ambitions for the Iron Throne, and if she really objected to those ambitions she could have done better than a plan no one else knew about while Cersei was raised to believe from an early age that she'd be Queen. I think the big age difference and Elia's frail health were both points against Jaime/Elia without Joanna alive to lobby for it, but the strength of Tywin's reaction was due to just not wanting to deal with the Martells at all with her dead. Age and health also deepen the insult of offering his dwarf son instead seeing as Tyrion was only a baby and they weren't even expecting him to survive infancy at that point. (Seriously, it's no wonder Tywin couldn't find a wife for Tyrion before he had one as a hostage because a son he hates and had no intention of allowing to inherit is hard to sell as a prize. Maybe a family might be willing to overlook the dwarfism if his wife would be Lady of Casterly Rock, but if the Lannister name is all he can offer, actual lords and heirs would be better options. If Tywin was really that interested in seeing Tyrion married, I doubt Walder Frey would turn him down.) 5 hours ago, Avaleigh said: Cersei shrieks in fury at this point and Oberyn warns the Mountain that if he doesn't say Elia's name that he'll haunt him through all of the seven hells. Tyrion comments to Ellaria that he's feeling more innocent by the moment. What a great moment, both Oberyn's last line and the image of Cersei screaming in fury. Re-reading this fight was more exciting than watching it for me, as the show scene just had a lot of fancy spear-spinning but neither actually came close to hurting the other until the end. That choreography was the one aspect of show Oberyn which couldn't live up to expectations. I'm glad Oberyn at least realized as an adult that he was being an ass with the Baelor Breakwind nonsense. 3 Link to comment
screamin September 20, 2017 Share September 20, 2017 (edited) I'm thinking maybe the Princess of Dorne made her proposal for a betrothal of one or both of their kids more out of a sense of obligation to her dead BFF's last expressed wishes rather than any genuine desire for the match, at that point. Joanna urgently invited her to bring her children to meet and match with her own kids. The Princess went in good faith, expecting a pleasant visit and a mutually advantageous arrangement for both families - Joanna no doubt sold it hard as a wonderful idea and a sure thing, because she REALLY wanted it to happen, given what she'd just found out the twins were up to. They came and found Joanna dead and Tywin ignoring them to palm them off on Kevan, even though the Princess was his peer; if Joanna had done anything to explain to Tywin the purpose of the visit (which she probably did), he had decided to disregard it. Oberyn noted he'd been housed in a windowless room (in opulent Casterly Rock). The Princess waited till the very end of their visit (a 'decent' amount of time, as per Oberyn) before finally bringing up the reason they'd come all that way, and Tywin answered in a deliberately insulting fashion. Oberyn had no doubt already expressed his distaste for Cersei, and betrothing a seventeen year old girl to an eight year old isn't the best thing for her fertility - she'll be in her twenties before they could marry. Rhaegar was a better match for her, age-wise. But the Princess asked Tywin anyway, though the cons of the match were already quite visible - the worst of them having Tywin himself as a prospective father in law. I'd guess she did it more so she could look up to her dead friend's shade and say, "Fuck it, Joanna, I tried," rather than hoping for success, or even, at that point, much desiring it. 12 hours ago, Avaleigh said: I wonder why Rhaegar felt compelled to marry Elia if his feelings for her were only lukewarm. Even if he had pressure from his father, surely there were other women who might have been considered. to be more or less on the same level. Ashara, Catelyn, one of the Hightower daughters, etc. Ashara and the Hightowers aren't daughters of Lords Paramount - only Catelyn could be considered to have the rank of Princess, like Elia. And maybe with his knack for alienating Tywin Aerys chose Elia especially because he'd figured it would piss Tywin off. As for Elia - she had her own charm, and we haven't heard that Rhaegar was ever strongly attracted to another woman till then that he'd had to give up for the sake of marrying Elia. At that time he was more into books than real life, and Elia no doubt seemed like a fair match by the low bar of an arranged marriage. Likely at the time he shrugged, "Why not?" and went back to reading the prophecies he thought proved that he was the Prince Who Was Promised. I can't see how a flat chest would make Elia not 'on the same level' as Rhaegar. Quote Why wasn't Joanna on the same page as Tywin when it comes to having Cersei marry Rhaegar. Rhaegar had two strong drawbacks; firstly, Aerys as father-in-law. Likely Joanna hated the idea of being forced to visit the king more often due to family ties, with more likelihood of him 'taking liberties' with her - or worse, deciding Cersei looks much like her mother and taking liberties with her. Worse, Aerys hadn't committed to betrothing Rhaegar to Cersei, and likely Joanna (not being as blinded by ego and stubbornness as Tywin was) realized the king was never going to agree to that betrothal. Cersei was getting older and the closer she got to puberty the more dangerous her games with Jaime would become. Joanna wanted to separate them ASAP, and a long open-ended wait for Aerys to make up his mind about Rhaegar wouldn't do that. Quote I think it's fairly certain that this wasn't her preference and more than once we get the impression that Tywin greatly valued his wife's opinion. You think? I'm not sure. He loved her, certainly. But I think the way she acted when she found out about the twins' incestuous play shows that she feared him, and didn't think he would take her guidance on what to do. She could have confided in him and got his cooperation in separating the twins so that they could get over this fixation. But she kept it secret, because she didn't trust him not to do something awful to the twins to teach them 'a sharp lesson' that would damage them for good. However nice Tywin was to her, it must still have been like being married to a mafia boss who's committed atrocities - you never forget what he's capable of. Edited September 20, 2017 by screamin 2 Link to comment
Lady S. September 20, 2017 Share September 20, 2017 Y'know I'm not sure I've ever realized that Tyrion just missed serving under Jon as lord commander if he had joined the NW, and maybe even witnessing Janos Slynt's death. upOf course I understand why his father forcing him to confess to a crime he didn't commit would be a dealbreaker. Better to risk your life on your own terms than give an abusive father what he's always wanted. The bit about being on trial for being a dwarf packs more of a punch coming moments after almost the entire room laughed at Shae's giant of Lannister remark (a nickname she actually came up with). Going to Dorne with Oberyn certainly sounds more attractive than an uncertain future at the Wall even without all that. And Oberyn could have won if he'd just stayed out of reach to get his confession. He didn't need to be close enough for the Mountain to kill him without getting up if he didn't want to finish him off. 2 Link to comment
benteen September 20, 2017 Share September 20, 2017 Quote People in the crowd start screaming and when Oberyn dives out of the way, the Mountain's sword ends up hacking off the arm of a stableboy. The boy ends up screaming and the noise irritates Gregor so much that he cuts the boy's head off to silence his screams. Most of the spectators begin to flee at this point and Oberyn gets a spear back in his hand so that they can continue fighting. It's ridiculous that the Crown let the spectators get that close to the events but if this doesn't show how bad it is for Lord's like Tywin to have unlimited power, I don't know what does. Gregor kills indiscriminately and you know he won't get punished for it. Oof on Shae revealing her nickname for Tyrion. That was the lowest blow she could have inflicted on him and did it out of spite. I'm glad though that Oberyn's poisoning of the Mountain caused him to suffer and that Gregor was finally subjected to the pain that he inflicted on so many of his victims. I'm not a sadist but I found that immensely satisfying and a time in this book that a villain got the punishment that they deserved. At least Oberyn's death led to Pedro Pascal being cast on Narcos so something good came out of this... 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh September 22, 2017 Share September 22, 2017 Daenerys VI In the Great Pyramid of Meereen, Dany is drinking wine and snacking on dog sausage as she watches her dragons chase each other around the pyramid's apex. She sometimes feels like a God who is living on top of the highest mountain in the world and wonders if all gods feel as lonely as she does. Missandei offers Dany more wine but Dany declines because she'll be holding court soon. Dany thinks about how fond she's become of Missandei and notes how wise and brave the girl is especially for her age. Dany hopes that she'll be able to visit Naath one day and tells Missandei that she promises to take her back to her homeland. Missandei says that she's content to remain with Daenerys and acknowledges that Dany has been good to her. Dany replies that Missandei has been good to her as well. Dany gets dressed and wears the three headed dragon crown that was given to her in Qarth by the Tourmaline Brotherhood. She thinks about how she was able to conquer Meereen in less than a day and wonders if people will start to call her Daenerys the Conqueror. Dany thinks about how she wanted to lead the charge herself but all of her captains advised against it, so she didn't enter the city until after the sack was finished. She remembers riding through the city as the slaves cheered for her and called her 'Mother'. The Meereenese nobles agree to give Dany one hundred and sixty three of their leaders to be sacrificed so that the rest of them will be allowed to live. Dany thinks that this is justice for the one hundred and sixty three children who were murdered at the hands of the Great Masters. At first Dany feels like her punishment is just but later, when she sees the men dying, she seems to have doubts. She reminds herself that she did this to avenge the children and tells herself that the punishment is just. The audience chamber in the Great Pyramid had an elaborate throne in the shape of a harpy but Dany decided that she didn't want to sit in the harpy's lap, so she demanded to have the throne destroyed and used for firewood. She sits upon an ebony bench even though she hears Meereenese people say that the bench is unsuitable for a queen. Her bloodriders were waiting for her. Silver bells tinkled in their oiled braids, and they wore the gold and jewels of dead men. Meereen had been rich beyond imagining. Even her sellswords seemed sated, at least for now. Across the room, Grey Worm wore the plain uniform of the Unsullied, his spiked bronze cap beneath one arm. These at least she could rely on, or so she hoped... and Brown Ben Plumm as well, solid Ben with his grey-white hair and weathered face, so beloved of her dragons. And Daario beside him, glittering in gold. Daario and Ben Plumm, Grey Worm, Irri, Jhiqui, Missandei... as she looked at them Dany found herself wondering which of them would betray her next. Dany goes back to her thoughts about how the dragon has three heads and thinks that there are two other men in the world that she'll be able to trust if she's lucky enough to ever find them. She thinks that she won't be alone then and that the trio will be just like Aegon and his sisters. In order to get the city under control after the sacking Dany orders that murderers are to be hanged, thieves are to lose a hand, and rapists are to lose their manhood. So far, eight murderers have been hanged and there's a big basket full of severed hands and cocks. Meereen seems to be calm for now but Dany wonders how long the peace will last. Dany agrees to have the bones of the one hundred and sixty three given back to their families but knows that widows of the dead men will still want to curse her. Daario has dyed his hair purple and Dany thinks that he looks like some long lost Valyrian. Daario tells her that two people seek an audience with her including an envoy from Astapor. The envoy tells Dany that the men she left in charge betrayed her trust so Cleon the Great decided to kill them. The people of Astapor have crowned Cleon as their king and Missandei asks if this is the same Cleon who was once owned by Grazdan mo Ullhor. Missandei whispers to Dany that Cleon was a butcher in Grazdan's kitchen and Dany feels sick that Astapor now has a butcher for a king. Dany tells the envoy that she hopes Cleon rules well and asks what it is Cleon wants from her. The envoy says that Cleon is on her side and suggests that they make an alliance against Yunkai. Dany tells the envoy that she already promised that no harm would come to Yunkai if they release their slaves, and the envoy says that the Yunkish people cannot be trusted and are plotting against her as they speak. The envoy says that Cleon would like to seal their alliance with marriage but Missandei spills the beans that Cleon is already married and is a polygamist at that. The envoy says that Cleon is fully prepared to put aside his wives even though two of them are pregnant. Dany tells the envoy that she'll consider everything he's said. Dany gets more news about the current state of Astapor. People are starving, rotting bodies litter the streets, each pyramid has been turned into an armed camp, and all of the highborn boys have been chosen to make new Unsullied. Dany is horrified but unsurprised. She thinks about how she tried to save Eroeh and feels like all she brings is death and horror no matter what she does. The Captain of the Indigo Star asks for permission to be allowed to start trading slaves again and Daario tells Dany that there's a long line of people who are begging for permission to be allowed to sell themselves back into slavery. The slaves who are coming forward are gently born and well spoken, and could become tutors, scribes, and even healers if they're allowed to go to the Free Cities. Dany agrees that anyone who wants to go back into slavery will be allowed to do so but makes the stipulation that no children are to be sold into slavery nor will a man be allowed to sell his wife. Dany also agrees to take a tenth of the sale for each slave. She insists that records be kept in order to cut down on the theft of her share. Dany asks Strong Belwas to bring her knights to see her and feels sick at the idea of seeing Jorah again. Barristan comes in holding his head high while Jorah stares at the ground looking sullen and guilty. Jorah tries to speak but Dany cuts him off and says that she'll tell him when he may speak. She admits to them that she hoped that they'd die in the sewers and says that her brother would have executed them both had it been up to him. Dany thinks to herself that this is what Viserys would have done; she feels she doesn't know what Rhaegar would have done. She labels them the informer and the turncloak but admits that they helped her win the city. Dany goes over some of the good things Barristan and Jorah did for her and acknowledges that they've both saved her life. She says that they've also lied to her, deceived her, and betrayed her. She turns her attention to Barristan so that she can get his side of the story. She asks him why he decided to support Robert over Viserys after he'd served her father faithfully for so long. Barristan tells Dany that she asked for the truth and says that Viserys seemed to take after his father in ways that Rhaegar never did. Barristan tells her that there was a reason that her father was called the Mad King. He says that the reason he didn't reveal himself at once was because he wanted to make sure that she wasn't mad in the same way as her father. Dany bristles at the idea that she might be mad or tainted and thinks the stories told about her father were all lies told by the Usurper. “I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land.” Dany is intrigued that Barristan knew her grandfather and thinks that he'll be able to tell her about her family and where she comes from. Barristan pledges to remain faithful to Dany for the rest of his days and Dany eventually asks Brown Ben Plumm to give Barristan a longsword. Barristan tells Dany that he hasn't touched a sword since the day he threw his at Joffrey's feet. He says that he won't pick another one up unless his queen gives it to him personally. Dany consents, hands Barristan the sword and asks him to kneel and pledge himself to her service. After Barristan pledges himself to Dany, she turns her attention to Jorah. Jorah is defiant when he tries to explain himself and Dany is angry over his lack of humility. She feels that he should be begging her forgiveness and is dismayed when she learns that Jorah was still spying on her when they were in Qarth. Dany becomes even more upset when she realizes that Jorah passed on the information that she was pregnant with Drogo's child. Barristan confirms the truth of this and says that he was there when Varys told the small council. Jorah finally starts begging for Dany's forgiveness but she feels that it's too little, too late. She thinks about how it was her intention all along to pardon Jorah but now feels that she can't do it anymore. Jorah reminds her that he's fought for her, protected her and killed for her. He admits that he's loved her and Dany thinks about what Quaithe told her. And there it was. Three treasons will you know once for blood and once for gold and once for love. “The gods do nothing without a purpose, they say. You did not die in battle, so it must be they still have some use for you. But I don’t. I will not have you near me. You are banished, ser. Go back to your masters in King’s Landing and collect your pardon, if you can. Or to Astapor. No doubt the butcher king needs knights.” Jorah reaches out to touch Dany and calls her by her name. She slaps his hand away and tells him never to touch her again or speak her name. She says that he has until dawn to leave Meereen. If he doesn't leave by dawn, she promises to have Strong Belwas twist his head off. She commands for Belwas to get Jorah out of her sight and tells herself not to cry. She thinks that if she gives into her tears that she'll end up forgiving him. After Jorah is taken away, Daario says that it's dangerous to have Jorah kept alive and offers to be the one to kill him. Dany tells Daario to leave Jorah alone and says that he should be allowed to go home. Dany tries reading one of her favorite books to take her mind off of everything but she keeps reading the same passage over and over. She thinks about how Jorah was the one who gave her the book on the day she married Khal Drogo. She considers telling Jorah to come back and then thinks about sending Daario to kill him. Dany goes outside to look at her dragons and finds Rhaegal sleeping by the pool. Drogon is perched on top of the pyramid and Viserion is off flying in the distance. Dany thinks about how anxious she feels when the dragons fly too far away and wonders if one day one of them will fail to return to her. Barristan goes to see Dany and asks her if she has any questions for him. Dany asks if her father was genuinely mad and Barristan tells her that the madness was always there and increased as her father aged. He says that Aerys's reign started out with great promise but says that the madness became more and more apparent as the years passed. Barristan trails off and Dany decides that she isn't ready to hear about her father just yet. Dany says that she wishes she could have known Rhaegar, and Barristan says that when she's ready he'll tell her everything she wants to know. Dany kisses Barristan on the cheek and sends him away. Dany takes Irri into bed with her and pretends that it's Drogo holding her. She finds that Drogo's face keeps turning into Daario's and thinks about how Daario's eyes almost looked purple with his new hair color. She has nightmares after she falls asleep and finally decides that she's too restless to sleep properly. She goes outside onto the terrace and thinks about how Jorah is likely leaving Meereen. Missandei joins Dany on the terrace and Dany warns Missandei to never betray her. Missandei says that she never will. Once morning arrives, Dany sends for her captains and commanders and tells them about how Aegon brought peace, prosperity, and justice to Westeros after he conquered it. She says that all she's brought is death and destruction and feels that she's been more of a khal than a queen so far. Ben Plumm tells her that there's no reason for her to stay and Daario says that the slavers brought their misery on themselves. Missandei points out that Dany has brought the people freedom but Dany doesn't see how this has been helpful to the people she's conquered. She asks if she's a dragon or a harpy and asks if she's mad. Barristan tells her that she is indeed a dragon but points out that Meereen isn't Westeros. Dany asks how she's expected to rule seven kingdoms if she's unable to rule a single city. Dany turned away from them, to gaze out over the city once again. “My children need time to heal and learn. My dragons need time to grow and test their wings. And I need the same. I will not let this city go the way of Astapor. I will not let the harpy of Yunkai chain up those I’ve freed all over again.” She turned back to look at their faces. “I will not march.” Rakharo asks her what she plans on doing and Dany replies that she's going to stay to rule and be queen. 3 Link to comment
benteen September 22, 2017 Share September 22, 2017 Quote Rakharo asks her what she plans on doing and Dany replies that she's going to stay to rule and be queen. And this is where you can pinpoint where exactly the books detoured into a world-building hell that they have yet to escape from... I really do like Barristan's humility here, willing to accept Dany's judgment and even adding some humor. I believe he mentions juggling in this one. This chapter reminds me that Book Jorah is a lot different than Show Jorah. Show Jorah is much more of a sleazebag and one not willing to accept responsibility for his actions. Earlier in the series, he says he did some thing's he's not proud of like dealing slaves but later, he curses Ned and his "blasted honor" for forcing him to flee. He talks a good game but won't accept responsibility for any of his actions. 1 Link to comment
YaddaYadda September 22, 2017 Share September 22, 2017 I love Barristan so much. I am really worried about his life during the Battle for Meereen in Winds. I find he makes the Dany chapters better because he's a character we've known since the first book. Every time we get introduced to a new character in Meereen I wanna start screaming "uncle". Like stop, let's end the Meereen arc now and send her home. I'm looking forward to her being allowed to interact with more people from Westeros and the Dothraki who followed her into the red waste. @benteen, I'm the opposite on Jorah. Show!Jorah has been cleaned up. Book!Jorah is so gross. I can't even reconcile how this guy was raised by Jeor whom we see as this father figure for Jon. I'm assuming that the lessons he imparted Jon are the same ones he tried to impart his own son, and yet. I was so damn happy when Barristan arrived on the scene. 1 Link to comment
Lady S. September 22, 2017 Share September 22, 2017 4 hours ago, benteen said: I really do like Barristan's humility here, willing to accept Dany's judgment and even adding some humor. I believe he mentions juggling in this one. This chapter reminds me that Book Jorah is a lot different than Show Jorah. Show Jorah is much more of a sleazebag and one not willing to accept responsibility for his actions. Earlier in the series, he says he did some thing's he's not proud of like dealing slaves but later, he curses Ned and his "blasted honor" for forcing him to flee. He talks a good game but won't accept responsibility for any of his actions. I'm not a big Barristan fan, but he is so, so much better than Jorah. (I'm assuming you actually meant Book Jorah is more of a sleazebag?) IIRC, Barry even cried when he confessed in the previous Dany chapter and said he had no excuses for serving House Baratheon as long as he did. I don't blame him at all for revealing Jorah's treachery when that skeevy hypocrite was still acting like Barristan's disguise was an unforgivable crime and he was the most loyal guy ever, and for all Barristan knew Jorah was still a spy (seeing as his last report would have reached the council after Barristan had already been dismissed) and therefore still an active danger to Dany's life. Not wanting to reveal himself until he'd gotten to know Dany sounds reasonable enough and shows he'd actually learned from his years with her father and wanted to avoid repeating past mistakes. (Though I wonder what he'd do if she actually had been more like Viserys. Having to start all over after traveling around the world would be a pretty big psychological blow for him.) Comparing that humility and willingness to die or serve as a jester, cook, or squire to Jorah, whose crimes were much worse imo, insisting he must be forgiven and it's a pretty stark contrast. Dany would've pardoned him in a heartbeat if he'd only shown an ounce of remorse, but he wasn't capable of that for her any more than he was for his original crime in Westeros. I can appreciate the show trying to give him an actual redemption but they really did Dany's character a disservice showing the whole discovery and judgment from Jorah's pov as if he was already more deserving sympathy than the teenage girl he'd tricked and endangered. Link to comment
nodorothyparker September 22, 2017 Share September 22, 2017 Annnd here's where we get completely bogged down in all the myriad differences between a conqueror and a ruler. Not coincidentally it's where my interest in the story of Dany and all the various dog-eating characters she surrounds herself with really starts to drop off. If the slaves you just set free are already lining up to sell themselves back into slavery, that might be your first clue that you're doing it wrong. Jorah is right that he just waded through a literal river of shit to take the city for her and that should probably count for something, but book Jorah doesn't have Iain Glen to do a certain amount of silky voiced smoothing over of everything he did before that. And he's certainly been with Dany long enough by now to know that she's looking for humility and groveling more than a lot of "yeah, I did it but...." If he'd led with that, it seems like stood at least a reasonable shot of talking Dany into letting him stick around. Ser Barry generally grates on my last nerve with his convenient ability to be out of the room whenever anything hard happens that might compromise his much vaunted honor and his "yes, I spent well over a decade serving your enemies but look how much better I am than everyone else who also made peace with those enemies" attitude but he's at least smart enough here to know to flatter Dany and tell her what she wants to hear. I will give him points for not shying away from attempting to set the record straight that he'd seen his share of batshit Targaryens during his time and wanted to check and make sure she wasn't another one to add to the pile before signing up. Also score one for Dany finally starting to buy a clue by the end of the chapter that maybe there really is a reason the Mad King was called that even if she doesn't want to hear all about it right now. Of course Daario is flitting around all purple haired for Dany to fawn over because of course he is. All the description of Naath is missing is unicorns and rainbow and puppies to be a little girl's idea of an island paradise, but I suppose that's fitting considering book Missandei is a little girl. 1 Link to comment
John Potts September 22, 2017 Share September 22, 2017 6 hours ago, benteen said: And this is where you can pinpoint where exactly the books detoured into a world-building hell that they have yet to escape from... ...which might be acceptable if we saw that Danny IS learning from her Essosian adventure, but while she can conquer, she is a pretty poor ruler. So far, all she has left in her wake is chaos. Aegon (and his sister wives) must have been remarkable people to conquer and establish their dynasty in the Seven (well, Six) Kingdoms. I guess she might come good in Book 6 (whenever that appears), but that will leave precious little time for winning the War for the Dawn. And all that discussion about her tax policies! 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh September 23, 2017 Share September 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Lady S. said: I'm not a big Barristan fan, but he is so, so much better than Jorah. (I'm assuming you actually meant Book Jorah is more of a sleazebag?) IIRC, Barry even cried when he confessed in the previous Dany chapter and said he had no excuses for serving House Baratheon as long as he did. I don't blame him at all for revealing Jorah's treachery when that skeevy hypocrite was still acting like Barristan's disguise was an unforgivable crime and he was the most loyal guy ever, and for all Barristan knew Jorah was still a spy (seeing as his last report would have reached the council after Barristan had already been dismissed) and therefore still an active danger to Dany's life. Not wanting to reveal himself until he'd gotten to know Dany sounds reasonable enough and shows he'd actually learned from his years with her father and wanted to avoid repeating past mistakes. (Though I wonder what he'd do if she actually had been more like Viserys. Having to start all over after traveling around the world would be a pretty big psychological blow for him.) Comparing that humility and willingness to die or serve as a jester, cook, or squire to Jorah, whose crimes were much worse imo, insisting he must be forgiven and it's a pretty stark contrast. Dany would've pardoned him in a heartbeat if he'd only shown an ounce of remorse, but he wasn't capable of that for her any more than he was for his original crime in Westeros. I can appreciate the show trying to give him an actual redemption but they really did Dany's character a disservice showing the whole discovery and judgment from Jorah's pov as if he was already more deserving sympathy than the teenage girl he'd tricked and endangered. This bit with Barristan warmed my heart. I love that he's willing to be of service to Dany in any capacity and how (to me at least) it doesn't come across as pathetic. It makes him seem like a man of strong character and someone who is willing to work hard to make up for past mistakes. He can admit that he's screwed up and he's also willing to (gently) share hard truths with Dany. (I really wish that she'd asked him more about her family and Westeros in the fifth book. That would have been more interesting to me that most of what we saw of her ruling Meereen. To me it's the height of stupidity that Cersei and Joffrey didn't see the value in this guy after having him around for so long. They threw away a guy who was worth more than any gold mine and even when Cersei recognizes her mistake she still doesn't fully appreciate Barristan's value. I don't give Joffrey a pass because of his age. I think of a kid having a favorite coach or whatever and feel like even a kid would speak up if he didn't want his favorite knight sent away. I feel like Bran would have spoken up if he'd been in a similar position and Bran is younger than Joffrey. Show!Jorah has his sleazy moments for sure, it's just easier for me to not be as annoyed about certain things because it's Iain Glen. Even now he still seems to think that he's the biggest victim when it comes to him selling multiple people into slavery. He's arrogant enough to think that he wasn't wrong because these people were on his land. He also seems to think that he's a victim because Dany prefers other men to him as opposed to accepting the fact that this is life and people don't always get what they want. He isn't that remorseful about the spying. He feels that his actions were understandable, necessary, unavoidable, etc. Book!Jorah going around looking for prostitutes who look like Dany definitely upped the sleaze factor for me. 57 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said: Of course Daario is flitting around all purple haired for Dany to fawn over because of course he is. All the description of Naath is missing is unicorns and rainbow and puppies to be a little girl's idea of an island paradise, but I suppose that's fitting considering book Missandei is a little girl. Yeah, Naath is the only place in Planetos/Earthos/whatever you want to call it where people don't die a violent death on the regular. They just get some unnamed disease and that's only reserved for foreigners. it makes me think of the smurfs singing fa la la la la la la la la la la. It's also strange to me that Missandei wouldn't take Dany up on her offer of sending her back if it was such a perfect place to be especially after all that she's seen and been through. Maybe she doesn't trust the idea that she wouldn't be enslaved again because of their inability to protect themselves or maybe she wants to stay close to her brothers. Or maybe she's just telling Dany that she's content to be with her because that's what Dany wants to hear. I'd love for their to be a twist with Missandei but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen if the show is anything to go by. I actually prefer book!Missandei to show!Missandei mainly because there's more of mystery with the book version. I don't have anything against show!Missandei, I'm just not particularly enthralled with her romance with Grey Worm. She's more interesting to me in scenes with Dany. Dany is having sexy time with Irri, she tries to imagine Drogo, but can only see Daario. Show Dany seemed a lot less like a teenage girl with an infatuation when it comes to the Daario situation. With Book Daario, I frequently wonder what the hell it is she sees in this guy. Show Daario isn't much better but at least he doesn't seem as ridiculous and OTT. 1 hour ago, John Potts said: ...which might be acceptable if we saw that Danny IS learning from her Essosian adventure, but while she can conquer, she is a pretty poor ruler. So far, all she has left in her wake is chaos. Aegon (and his sister wives) must have been remarkable people to conquer and establish their dynasty in the Seven (well, Six) Kingdoms. I guess she might come good in Book 6 (whenever that appears), but that will leave precious little time for winning the War for the Dawn. And all that discussion about her tax policies! I definitely didn't remember that Dany agreed to have the slave traders kick up a tenth to her for any slaves that they sell. That was super surprising to me and I don't think it happens on the show IIRC. She just tells that guy and others like him that they can basically enter a contract for a certain amount of time to continue to serve whichever person/family they were with before she stomped into town. 2 Link to comment
Lady S. September 23, 2017 Share September 23, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said: Jorah is right that he just waded through a literal river of shit to take the city for her and that should probably count for something, It did count for something, in that she spared his life and gave him the chance to go home. Actually doing his damn job doesn't negate entirely that most of his time with her did include hidden treachery at the same time he was outwardly serving her so loyally and doing his best to make her solely dependant on his protection. How can anyone still trust an adviser like that? I feel like the Dany/Jorah is talked about more as a "friendzoned" loser trying to win a possible love interest just because that's clearly how Jorah thinks of it (the kiss in this book and the presumption of thinking himself a possible husband show he does really think of her as his monarch), even though for all the affection she does have for him, she is foremost his liege, his boss. Every time he saved her life or fought for her he was doing the service he owed her all along, since the day they met and he swore his sword to House Targaryen (under false pretenses), no different than Barristan with Dany or her dead relatives, Arthur Dayne with Rhaegar, Davos with Stannis, the Greatjon with Robb, Brienne with her various lords and ladies etc. Seeking out two vulnerable exiles (it's not like he knew Viserys was undeserving of protection until they'd spent time together), one of whom was a 13yo girl, swearing them loyalty under false pretenses, building a friendship as intimately as he could, all the while serving another side and actively putting his supposed monarch(s) in danger is way above and beyond just bending the knee to Robert. I'm not sure how much gratitude should be owed for saving someone from a danger you chose to put them in (that smells like Littlefinger logic), and knowing that his shift of loyalties came because he fell in love with Dany and not because he decided what he'd done before was wrong further complicates matters when the object of his desires is never going to return those feelings which are the basis of his devotion. I can't imagine book Jorah happily serving Dany if she re-married, even if the husband was more worthy, or being fine with her having more Westorosi advisors and not relying on him so much, even if they were honest with her from the start. Dany's just lucky she didn't return his feelings, because just imagine how much worse it would be to somehow learn of his lies after they'd run away together and sold her dragon eggs post-Drogo's death or actually agreed to marry him at any point. Barristan's surprise that Dany doesn't get what he meant about Viserys being more like Aerys than Rhaegar shows another way that Jorah has failed her as an adviser. She's had a Westerosi who fought against the Mad King at her side for a while but still believes her father was an innocent victim of propaganda. Jorah was happy enough to be honest with her about the abusive brother she was trying to free herself from, but didn't want to reveal harder truths she wouldn't be happy to hear. She doesn't just deserve to know the whole truth about her family, she needed to know before ever landing in Westeros and expecting fealty as her father's heir, but of course putting Dany on the throne was never Jorah's top priority and it suited him just fine to have her hate the Starks when he hated Ned too. 37 minutes ago, Avaleigh said: Dany is having sexy time with Irri, she tries to imagine Drogo, but can only see Daario. Show Dany seemed a lot less like a teenage girl with an infatuation when it comes to the Daario situation. With Book Daario, I frequently wonder what the hell it is she sees in this guy. Show Daario isn't much better but at least he doesn't seem as ridiculous and OTT. I think I'd forgotten that the Dany/Irri sex happens multiple times. It's one of the skeeviest aspects of the books for me, because Dany isn't depicted as being bisexual but as using Irri as a human masturbation aid and Irri is acting out of desire either but because she thinks it's part of her job as if she's still a slave, or at best, an uncompensated prostitute. GRRM spared us from any attempt at ruining m/m sex because he says he wouldn't feel qualified to write it, yet he felt the need to have both Dany and Cersei, two straight characters, engaging in f/f sex of dubious consent. At least Cersei/Taena is used for an inner monologue about her history with Robert, while Dany/Irri is just used as a very unnecessary reminder that Dany is lonely and getting horny for Daario. As for Dany/Daario, I think that's a symptom of GRRM not really understanding why girls like "bad boys". He was somehow surprised by fan response to Darkstar, thinking he'd created another Oberyn. I think the same thing happened with Daario where we're supposed to see Dany's attraction to him as a mistake, but an understandable one for a hormonal teenage girl unexperienced save for her rapist warlord husband, but bookDaario is such an OTT douchebag as to ridiculous at any age. Edited September 23, 2017 by Lady S. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker September 23, 2017 Share September 23, 2017 1 hour ago, Lady S. said: Barristan's surprise that Dany doesn't get what he meant about Viserys being more like Aerys than Rhaegar shows another way that Jorah has failed her as an adviser. She's had a Westerosi who fought against the Mad King at her side for a while but still believes her father was an innocent victim of propaganda. Jorah was happy enough to be honest with her about the abusive brother she was trying to free herself from, but didn't want to reveal harder truths she wouldn't be happy to hear. She doesn't just deserve to know the whole truth about her family, she needed to know before ever landing in Westeros and expecting fealty as her father's heir, but of course putting Dany on the throne was never Jorah's top priority and it suited him just fine to have her hate the Starks when he hated Ned too. I hadn't really thought much about this but this is a great point. Jorah has a terrific little speech early on about how the average person in Westeros doesn't care who's on the throne as long as their crops and kids are doing well and the summer lasts to counter Illyrio's obviously false claims that the commoners are secretly sewing dragon banners and drinking to her health. That would certainly suggest at that point that he understood she really ought to know that before making any grandiose invasion plans no matter how unlikely such an invasion might have seemed at the time. But once he becomes enamored of her, he's all about trying to make himself so indispensable to her that it maybe could translate into something and seems to forget all about how he's supposed to be advising her to the reality of what she'd encounter if she ever actually does get around to invading. She clearly doesn't want to hear anything bad that would contradict the slanted history and half truths she learned from Viserys so he skips it entirely and lets her think what she wants so she won't be mad at him. That casts a couple of times where he didn't seem to have any realistic suggestions about what she should do to advance her grand plan when she seemed out of options in an entirely new light. It also actually changes how I'm perceiving Ser Barry here, who's clearly trying to figure out how lightly to tread on this subject. At least a little part of my frustration with Dany as a character is how she seems to be otherwise fairly clear-eyed about Viserys and his shortcomings but that she still seems to take his version of events to how they got here as absolute gospel. I know some of that is being a teenage girl who hears what she wants, but if I'm supposed to be rooting for her to be the eventual ruler of other characters I do like I kind of want to see her show at least some wisdom and understanding that there was probably more to the overthrow of a centuries-old dynasty than bad PR. 2 Link to comment
John Potts September 23, 2017 Share September 23, 2017 14 hours ago, nodorothyparker said: Jorah has a terrific little speech early on about how the average person in Westeros doesn't care who's on the throne as long as their crops and kids are doing well and the summer lasts to counter Illyrio's obviously false claims that the commoners are secretly sewing dragon banners and drinking to her health. Another great Jorah line was, "Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honourably - Rhaegar died." If he kept pointing out the problems Danny would face in Westeros , he'd be easier to like, for all his ex-slaving, spying ways. "Arstan" may not have revealed his identity straight off, but at least he was prepared to tell the truth to Danny even when it isn't what she wants to hear. Davos is Stannis' most trusted adviser because he never sugar coats his advice: if your advisers are only saying what you want to hear (like Jorah is increasingly doing) they're doing a poor job. 3 Link to comment
benteen September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 On 9/22/2017 at 5:06 PM, Lady S. said: I'm not a big Barristan fan, but he is so, so much better than Jorah. (I'm assuming you actually meant Book Jorah is more of a sleazebag?) IIRC, Barry even cried when he confessed in the previous Dany chapter and said he had no excuses for serving House Baratheon as long as he did. I don't blame him at all for revealing Jorah's treachery when that skeevy hypocrite was still acting like Barristan's disguise was an unforgivable crime and he was the most loyal guy ever, and for all Barristan knew Jorah was still a spy (seeing as his last report would have reached the council after Barristan had already been dismissed) and therefore still an active danger to Dany's life. Not wanting to reveal himself until he'd gotten to know Dany sounds reasonable enough and shows he'd actually learned from his years with her father and wanted to avoid repeating past mistakes. (Though I wonder what he'd do if she actually had been more like Viserys. Having to start all over after traveling around the world would be a pretty big psychological blow for him.) Comparing that humility and willingness to die or serve as a jester, cook, or squire to Jorah, whose crimes were much worse imo, insisting he must be forgiven and it's a pretty stark contrast. Dany would've pardoned him in a heartbeat if he'd only shown an ounce of remorse, but he wasn't capable of that for her any more than he was for his original crime in Westeros. I can appreciate the show trying to give him an actual redemption but they really did Dany's character a disservice showing the whole discovery and judgment from Jorah's pov as if he was already more deserving sympathy than the teenage girl he'd tricked and endangered. Yes, I did indeed mean that Book Jorah is a sleazeblag and not Show Jorah. My bad on that mistake. Show Jorah has his flaws and issues but at least he doesn't try to defend them and expect a medal to be pinned on his chest for them. In the book, isn't Jorah with a young (probably younger than Dany) prostitute who looks like Dany when he sees Tyrion? 1 Link to comment
YaddaYadda September 25, 2017 Share September 25, 2017 2 hours ago, benteen said: In the book, isn't Jorah with a young (probably younger than Dany) prostitute who looks like Dany when he sees Tyrion? Yes, he is. I also just got through re-reading that chapter and the sleaze factor is off the charts there. 1 Link to comment
Lady S. September 26, 2017 Share September 26, 2017 Seriously, if we'd never seen book Jorah again after this chapter, I sure wouldn't have complained about it as a dropped plotpoint. Thinking about it, I think the spying would be one thing if he really was just getting close to her as a diligent spy and he couldn't help any feelings conflicting with his primary duty (sort of like Jon spying among the wildlings) or if he'd really made a choice between loyalties once he couldn't deny his feelings and decided it was wrong to keep betraying her, but that's not really what happened. By the time he stopped Viserys from stealing the dragon eggs, if not sooner, it was clear his close friendship with Dany had nothing to do with intelligence-gathering, yet he still kept sending intelligence reports even after Viserys and Drogo were both dead and he was casting himself as her only true friend. From his reaction when Dany asked about his last report from frickin' Qarth I assume he did send final valuable info, not just told them he'd quit. (I'd guess he told Varys about the dragons, though no one else believed that report.) 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh September 27, 2017 Share September 27, 2017 Jaime IX Kevan Lannister gives Tommen a bunch of documents to sign. The first document strips Edmure Tully of Riverrun and all of the income it generates. A second document grants Riverrun to Genna Lannister and her husband Emmon Frey. Jaime feels bored as he sits and watches Tommen sign document after document. He's also sore from the sparring with did with Addam Marbrand the night before. He wanted to see how well he fights with his left hand and is pained to realize that he's no longer a competent swordsman. He knows that if they'd been fighting in earnest that Marbrand would have easily been able to kill him and hopes that this man he's known since childhood will be able to keep this news to himself. Tommen signs another document that legitimizes the bastard son of Roose Bolton and another that makes Roose Bolton the Warden in the North. Another document grants Ser Rolph Spicer the castle of Castamere and elevates him to the rank of lord. Jaime thinks about how he should have gone to Ser Ilyn Payne to test his skill with his left hand because Payne wouldn't be able to brag about it afterwards. Jaime thinks of Marbrand as a friend but he still doesn't trust what might happen if Addam gets drunk one day and lets something slip about how useless Jaime has become with a sword. Tommen pardons the Westerlings, Lord Jonos Bracken of Stone Hedge, Lord Vance, Lord Goodbrook, and Lord Mooton of Maidenpool. Jaime gets to his feet to leave and Kevan encourages Jaime to go and visit with Tywin. Jaime says that the breach between him and his father is Tywin's doing and says that the gift of the sword hasn't changed anything as far as Jaime is concerned. Kevan says that the gift of a sword was heartfelt and feels that Tywin hoped it would encourage Jaime to train with his left hand. Jaime cuts Kevan off before he can finish and sarcastically talks about the possibility of growing a new right hand. Jaime looks at Tommen and thinks about how different he is from Joffrey. They have the same golden hair and green eyes, but Tommen is chubby and he even likes to read. Jaime thinks about how Tommen won't be able to rule in his own right for another seven years or so and that the real ruling will be done by Tywin. As Jaime leaves, he gives Trant the order to escort Tommen back to Maegor's Holdfast once the King is finished putting the royal seal on all of the documents. Jaime worries about what will happen if Trant, Blount, or Kettleblack find out that he can no longer fight. Jaime runs into Steelshanks Walton as he prepares to leave King's Landing and Steelshanks says that Lord Bolton is already expecting him. A girl rides onto the scene to leave with Steelshanks and thanks Jaime for being kind enough to see her off. Jaime is surprised that this girl knows him and she mumbles to him that she's Arya Stark. Jaime didn't pay much attention to Arya the times he was around her but thinks that this girl looks older. 'Arya' confirms that she's to be married to Roose Bolton's son Ramsay and says that she's heard that Ramsay is very brave. She says that she's happy but Jaime thinks she looks sad, wary, and frightened. Jaime wishes her well and makes sure that Steelshanks received the money he was promised. Steelshanks thanks Jaime and comments about how the Lannisters always pay their debts. “Always,” said Jaime, with a last glance at the girl. He wondered if there was much resemblance. Not that it mattered. The real Arya Stark was buried in some unmarked grave in Flea Bottom in all likelihood. With her brothers dead, and both parents, who would dare name this one a fraud? “Good speed,” he told Steelshanks. Nage raised his peace banner, and the northmen formed a column as ragged as their fur cloaks and trotted out the castle gate. The thin girl on the grey mare looked small and forlorn in their midst. Jaime looks at the bloodstain on the ground from the stableboy that was killed during the duel between the Mountain and Oberyn Martell. Thinking about what happened to the stableboy makes Jaime angry all over again. He partially blames Blount for what happened because Blount became so focused on the fight that he stopped paying attention to his duty to keep the crowd back. Jaime acknowledges that Clegane shares most of the blame and thinks about how Gregor is currently paying for some of what he's done. Grand Maester Pycelle is tending to Gregor's wounds and Jaime thinks about how Gregor's screams from the maester's chambers are loud and constant. Pycelle says that he's done what he can but Gregor's veins are turning black and he doesn't really know what to do unless he finds out what sort of poison Oberyn put on the end of his spear. Tywin commands Pycelle to heal Gregor and says that it's important that Dorne knows that it was the King's Justice that ultimately brought about Gregor's death. When Jaime returns to his bedchamber in the White Tower he finds Cersei there waiting for him. Jaime thinks about how beautiful Cersei looks and is tempted to take her in his arms. Jaime asks her what she's doing there and she complains about how she's no longer wanted on the council. She asks Jaime to talk to their father for her and says that Tywin isn't asking that much from him. Jaime explains that Tywin wants him to quit the Kingsguard and go back to Casterly Rock, and Cersei says that this might not be so bad since she's being sent back to the Rock too. Cersei is frustrated that Tywin wants to get her out of the way so that he can better control Tommen. She's also upset that Tywin wants Tommen to be married to Margaery even though she's twice his age. Jaime tells Cersei that he doesn't see the harm in having Tommen and Margaery marry. He points out that Tommen has been lonely ever since Myrcella left and that Tommen seems to like having Margaery and her ladies around. Cersei talks about how Tommen is Jaime's son and Jaime reminds Cersei that Tommen doesn't think of him as a father and that she's always warned him to not show any extra interest in Joffrey, Myrcella, or Tommen. Cersei tells Jaime that she was only trying to keep their children safe from Robert and says that she wanted to keep Jaime safe too. Robert’s death still left a bitter taste in Jaime’s mouth. It should have been me who killed him, not Cersei. “I only wished he’d died at my hands.” When I still had two of them. “If I’d let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell...” Cersei berates Jaime for throwing Bran out of the window and says that if he'd gone hunting as she'd asked him too, the entire incident could have been avoided. Jaime says that he was tired of waiting and hated seeing Robert stumble into her bed every night. He kept wondering if Robert would try to assert his marital rights. Jaime mentions that Catelyn accused him of sending an assassin to kill Bran, and Cersei says that Tyrion mentioned something about the attack on Bran as well. Cersei denies having anything to do with the attack on Bran and mentions that Robert thought it would have been better for Bran to die. Jaime asks who was in the room when Robert made the comment about it being better for Bran to die and Cersei admits that Robert made the comment in front of her and the children. She mockingly asks Jaime if he thinks that Myrcella is the one who arranged to have an assassin try to kill Bran, and Jaime suggests that Joffrey is to blame. Jaime thinks about how Tyrion nearly lost his life over the business with the dagger and wonders if this could be the reason behind Joffrey's murder. Cersei talks about how she couldn't save Joffrey and how terrified he was before he died. She tells Jaime that Tommen is the only child she has left and begs him not to allow Tywin to take him from her. Jaime says that he can try to talk to Tywin but admits that it probably won't do any good. Cersei says that Tywin will fall in line if Jaime agrees to leave the Kingsguard but Jaime makes it clear that he isn't going to leave the Kingsguard. Cersei fights back tears and tells Jaime that he can't abandon her when she needs him most. She says that if Jaime doesn't do something that she'll lose Tommen, she'll be sent away, and she'll be forced to marry again. Jaime is upset when he learns that Cersei is going to be forced to marry again and asks who she's going to be married to. Cersei says she isn't sure and only knows that it'll be some lord that Tywin thinks he needs on his side. She tells Jaime that she only wants him in her bed and Jaime replies that she should tell Tywin that. Cersei says that it's crazy for him to talk that way and reminds him of how they were separated from each other by their mother the time that she caught them 'playing' playing as children. Cersei talks about all of the things that will be lost if their relationship is discovered and says that they'll never be able to live openly as a couple. Jaime uses the Targaryens as an example to justify their relationship but Cersei points out that they aren't Targaryens. Jaime tells Cersei to keep her voice down and Cersei tells Jaime again that he's the only man she's sexually interested in. She unlaces Jaime's pants and pulls out his cock but Jaime pulls away from her and makes it clear that he doesn't feel that White Tower is the place for them to have a sexual encounter. Cersei argues that this isn't any different than the time they had sex in the sept but Jaime continues to reject her. For an instant he could see confusion in her bright green eyes, and fear as well. Then rage replaced it. Cersei gathered herself together, got to her feet, straightened her skirts. “Was it your hand they hacked off in Harrenhal, or your manhood?” As she shook her head, her hair tumbled around her bare white shoulders. “I was a fool to come. You lacked the courage to avenge Joffrey, why would I think that you’d protect Tommen? Tell me, if the imp had killed all three of your children, would that have made you wroth?” Jaime says that Tyrion isn't going to harm Tommen or Myrcella and continues to question whether or not Tyrion killed Joffrey. Cersei asks Jaime how he can say that after all of Tyrion's threats and insists that Jaime is a fool. She says that Tyrion has lied to him thousands of times and admits that she has as well. She tells Jaime that he can hold onto Tyrion's severed head if he likes and Jaime tells Cersei to leave because she's making him angry. Cersei mocks the idea of being terrified of a cripple like Jaime and decides to make fun of the size of her brother's cock. When she was gone Jaime took her advice, fumbling one-handed at his laces. He felt a bonedeep ache in his phantom fingers. I’ve lost a hand, a father, a son, a sister, and a lover, and soon enough I will lose a brother. And yet they keep telling me House Lannister won this war. Jaime has Blount tell Loras to bring Brienne to him. Loras admits to Jaime that Brienne might be telling to truth about what happened with Renly and says that it might have been Stannis after all. Loras mentions that Ser Cortney Penrose's death was similarly mysterious and Brienne comments on what a good man Penrose was. Loras leaves the room and Jaime and Brienne spend some time complimenting each other in awkward fashion. Jaime admits to Brienne that there's a fake Arya Stark returning to the North and says that he wanted to let Brienne know this before she goes on a search for this fake Arya only to get herself killed. Brienne wonders why Jaime would share the secrets of House Lannister with her. The Hand’s secrets, he thought. I no longer have a father. “l pay my debts like every good little lion. I did promise Lady Stark her daughters... and one of them is still alive. My brother may know where she is, but if so he isn’t saying. Cersei is convinced that Sansa helped him murder Joffrey.” Brienne doesn't believe that Sansa would poison Joffrey and thinks that it must have been Tyrion but sees that Jaime doesn't believe that his brother did it. Jaime says that Brienne knows him too well and says that Tyrion would never do something like kinslaying. Jaime seems convinced that Sansa is the guilty party but Brienne refuses to believe it. Jaime gives Brienne the sword that his father gave him and says that he'd like her to give it the name Oathkeeper. Jaime explains about how Ice was melted down to make two swords and that Oathkeeper is one of the swords. Brienne assumes that Jaime wants her to harm Sansa and use the sword against her but Jaime clarifies that he is trying to find a way for them both to keep their vow to Catelyn Stark. Jaime suddenly wants Brienne to be out of his presence and Brienne apologizes for thinking badly of Jaime. Brienne understands that she's offended Jaime and tries to tell him that she owes him an apology. She also understands that Joffrey was Jaime's son but when she tries to speak to him about the matter, Jaime cuts her off and tells her to let it go. Brienne wonders why Jaime would want her to try to protect Sansa if he believes that Sansa is guilty of killing Joffrey. Because Joff was no more to me than a squirt of seed in Cersei’s cunt. And because he deserved to die. “I have made kings and unmade them. Sansa Stark is my last chance for honor.” Jaime smiled thinly. “Besides, kingslayers should band together. Are you ever going to go?” Her big hand wrapped tight around Oathkeeper. “I will. And I will find the girl and keep her safe. For her lady mother’s sake. And for yours.” She bowed stiffly, whirled, and went. After Brienne leaves, Jaime starts writing in the White Book with his left hand. He thinks that his handwriting looks like the handwriting of a six year old. Jaime writes about how he was defeated at the Whispering Wood and how he was held captive at Riverrun until he was freed and ransomed by a promise that was unfulfilled. He mentions how he was captured by the Brave Companions and how he lost his hand. He writes that he was returned to King's Landing by Brienne of Tarth. When he was done, more than three-quarters of his page still remained to be filled between the gold lion on the crimson shield on top and the blank white shield at the bottom. Ser Gerold Hightower had begun his history, and Ser Barristan Selmy had continued it, but the rest Jaime Lannister would need to write for himself. He could write whatever he chose, henceforth. Whatever he chose... 3 Link to comment
Avaleigh September 28, 2017 Share September 28, 2017 (edited) What I find interesting about the Jaime/Cersei stuff is how show!Cersei does exactly what Jaime wants her to do. She tells Tywin the truth about them and she's totally okay with them living openly as a couple. It's Jaime who's more reluctant to go there and kind of gets nervous when he realizes that she's told their father the truth about their relationship. It makes me wonder what book Jaime would have done if she'd made these choices in the books in terms of the letter burning moment. I also didn't remember that he first decided to try out his hand with Addam Marbrand. I wonder if Marbrand will ever spill the beans one day. I really like the moment that Brienne wants to say something to comfort Jaime about Joffrey. Poor Jeyne. She's already miserable and has no idea about the horror show that she's in for. She truly has one of the most horrible character experiences in the books. Lol at the moment where Tywin asks Pycelle if he lost his wits when he lost his beard. Tywin is the one who's being unreasonable here. He wants Pycelle to work a miracle in terms of saving Gregor's life and Pycelle doesn't even know what Gregor was poisoned with. If book Tywin is indeed suspicious of the Jaime/Cersei relationship then it's weird that he'd be cool with them both going back to the Rock. Maybe it's because he doesn't think that Cersei will be there that long if he succeeds in marrying her off. It's too bad that we never got Tywin's reaction to Jaime giving away one of their Valyrian swords. I feel like the freak out there would have been epic. Edited September 28, 2017 by Avaleigh 3 Link to comment
WearyTraveler September 28, 2017 Share September 28, 2017 (edited) On 9/23/2017 at 1:03 AM, Avaleigh said: Maybe she doesn't trust the idea that she wouldn't be enslaved again That's the exact reason she gives Dany in the chapter. She says that there is no guarantee that another slaver ship wouldn't go there and take them again. You'd think that since it seems to be such a recurring situation, the people in Naath would have found a way to defend themselves, somehow. ______________________ I'm like a week behind, so, I'll make it short, but I wanted to mention two things on previous chapters: 1) Snarky Jon with his "my Lord" and "Ser" after every sentence was fun. Especially when he told Janos he didn't know what Slynt's brain was made off, "my Lord". 2) Is the Tyrion chapter one of the longest chapters in the all the series? I felt that it went on forever. Even though it was riveting, it went on for so long that, eventually, I was as annoyed as The Mountain with "You raped her. You murdered her. You killed her children" and was ready for a resolution of that combat. I think Tyrion chapters start running very long in the last two books and I don't know if it is because Tyrion is clearly Martin's favourite (and his very own Mary Sue), or if it's because Tyrion is the only POV character, aside from Dany and Quentyn (later), in Essos, and so we have to cover a lot of story through him. Edited September 28, 2017 by WearyTraveler 2 Link to comment
John Potts September 28, 2017 Share September 28, 2017 1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said: Snarky Jon with his "my Lord" and "Ser" after every sentence was fun. Especially when he told Janos he didn't know what Slynt's brain was made off, "my Lord". Particularly since you're supposed to leave your title behind when you take the Black. But like noble daughters expecting to become Abbesses if entered a nunnery in Medieval Europe, you rather suspect that the Night Watch isn't nearly as egalitarian as it's made out to be. Link to comment
Lady S. September 30, 2017 Share September 30, 2017 (edited) On 9/27/2017 at 9:00 PM, Avaleigh said: If book Tywin is indeed suspicious of the Jaime/Cersei relationship then it's weird that he'd be cool with them both going back to the Rock. Maybe it's because he doesn't think that Cersei will be there that long if he succeeds in marrying her off. Well, there's only talk about Cersei going back to the Rock after Jaime refused to go there. Tywin originally wanted her married off to Willas Tyrell, but Olenna scuttled that idea, and the other name tossed around was Oberyn's but he was not interested for understandable reasons, and by this point Tywin has no husband nailed down yet, he just wants Cersei gone asap, separated from Tommen and the council. If Jaime had agreed to play along with Tywin, which ludicrously could have meant taking Tommen with him back to Casterly Rock, maybe Tywin could have let Cersei stay at court until he found her a new husband. Even if Tywin didn't believe there was any possibility of twincest, his stated reason for the remarriage was to somehow prove Stannis a liar, so I wouldn't think even he was delusional enough to think the twins living together with no supervision prior to her remarriage would really help clear Cersei's reputation. The thing is, Cersei says this like they can live at the Rock together, yet the whole time she's asking Jaime to help prevent her from leaving King's Landing. She thinks him leaving King's Landing (and presumably finally having to get married too) is a small price to pay if she can stay in King's Landing like she wants. No doubt even if he was married he'd have more freedom to visit King's Landing if she wished to continue the affair than she would have opportunity to visit Jaime whenever she wanted if she had a new husband in another region already aware of the rumors about his wife. Jaime would have more freedom to even avoid marriage if he so wished, even if he agreed to take his place as lord, but that's not even the argument Cersei's using. She keeps repeating that she only wants Jaime in her bed (true enough, but she wants proximity to the throne more than any man) but never acknowledges that they'd be separated either way and seems to be expecting him not to notice that. She acts like this is all concern for Tommen and accuses Jaime of not caring for their surviving children, ignoring the fact that his staying in the Kingsguard means serving and protecting their son, while admitting that she never wanted or expected him to be feel fatherly before, as if he should just turn it on and off like a switch only when she tells him to. (And of course she's not even asking him to help the children with anything they need, she's mad at him for not murdering Tyrion or jumping to with her newest request.) The only other time we know of Cersei initiating sex she was asking him to join the Kingsguard to "be near her always" and this time she's asking the exact opposite, for him to do what Tywin wants, what she'd prevented years ago, and give up on them living together. Probably easier for Jaime to refuse when he can't tell himself that future access to Cersei makes whatever she asks of him worth it. I do always side-eye his uneasiness at despoiling his kingsguard chambers being a deciding factor, because Cersei's right that shouldn't be a more sacred space than a church with their nephew-son's corpse in it. I do prefer Brienne's aimless wandering in the riverlands to the northern candle watch in s5, but I can't help reading this and wishing she had followed Jeyne and somehow rescued her from ever marrying Ramsay. I wonder what Jaime would have done if the girl sent north actually was Arya. Or I should say, if Jaime didn't know that she wasn't Arya, since I doubt Tywin would give away an actual Stark and I don't think Roose ever believed that he would. Of course it was useless Boros Blount that let the crowd get too close during the duel. (Though gods, why anyone want to get close to Gregor?) Edited September 30, 2017 by Lady S. 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 2, 2017 Share October 2, 2017 Kept meaning to get to this chapter this weekend and kept forgetting. Anyway ... The opening of this chapter is a great illustration of the problem with a child king and why a family like the Tyrells would prefer one. Tommen is just signing whatever's put in front of him without questioning any of it or offering any opinion of his own, as if an 8-year-old boy would even have an informed opinion on who should be holding what castle. The entire Jaime-Cersei scene is so wonderfully overwrought. I'm also realizing almost three full books in that it's one of the few lengthy conversations we've ever seen between the two of them that isn't just a memory and thus probably isn't as colored as being seen through that prism. For all her claims about only wanting Jaime, which we'll later see she at least believes to be true, most of her arguments here are about how he has to help her stay close to Tommen and the throne. She's willing to use his old jealousy about having to share her with Robert and play the fatherhood card for children she couldn't allow him to claim to try to get him to do her bidding and when that fails her goes the attempted seduction route after long refusing to come to him. I don't know that I really buy his not wanting to dishonor the Kingsguard chambers either. Maybe that is really all it is, but it seems more to be the first convenient easy out that came to mind after she's just rejected him again about how oh, she'd really love it if she could just openly be with him and be his wife like he wants but they aren't Targaryens and she needs to stay here right next to the throne and you'll do this for me anyway just like you always do, right Jaime? We haven't even gotten to the "and Moonboy too for all I know" reveal yet and the bloom is already starting to come off the rose. I love his line about how he pretty much lost all of his family through this but everyone keeps saying the Lannisters have won the war. Of course this is immediately followed by bringing back Brienne so he can mentally call her ugly even as they're dancing around complimenting each other and bickering and showing how well they do actually understand each other while he's giving away Lannister secrets and oh, a priceless sword. I kind of love that they basically made up a new quest between them since their last one didn't exactly turn out so well. I know Tywin doesn't have long to go but I too wish we'd at least gotten to see him learn that the Valyrian sword that he'd gone to such trouble to have made after all his previous efforts to acquire one had failed had been given away to a freak of a girl playing knight who was nonetheless the one woman aside from Cersei to whom Jaime's ever really paid any attention. It's fun to think about what he might have read into that, or given his tendency to wildly overreact, maybe not. I also love that Tywin is demanding that Pycelle pull off a miracle and heal future Frankengregor's life so he can be the one seen having him killed rather than Oberyn getting credit for it. But at the same time he doesn't want to risk pissing off the Dornish either since no one knows where Stannis has gone and they can't take the chance of him showing back up at Storm's End or points south to rally against them. Because he knows Stannis well enough to know Stannis didn't just give up and go away. So we do get the answer here that Steelshanks Walton got the gold he was promised since I wondered about that in an earlier chapter. Knowing what poor Jeyne as faux Arya is riding into is just depressing as hell to think about. 1 Link to comment
WearyTraveler October 2, 2017 Share October 2, 2017 7 hours ago, nodorothyparker said: We haven't even gotten to the "and Moonboy too for all I know" reveal yet and the bloom is already starting to come off the rose. This is also the chapter where she tells him she has lied to him in the past, so, even this early, Cersei is working against herself out of spite, planting the seed that will later give more credence to Tyrion's comments regarding the way she has been exchanging sex favors to get her way. 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh October 4, 2017 Share October 4, 2017 Jon X Jon has been locked in an ice cell for the past four days. The cell is too small for him to stand up without stooping or for him to stretch out his legs while he sleeps. He's been taken out of his cell so that he can be brought to Janos Slynt. He feels as though he's let his father down and wonders if he ought to have stayed with Ygritte after all. He also thinks about Robb and how Robb will be remembered as a good and heroic man. He fears that he'll only be remembered as a bastard turncloak and is grateful that Ned isn't around to hear about his shame. Slynt tells Jon that Maester Aemon is preventing him from hanging him and says that Cotter Pyke sent a letter saying that Jon is no turncloak. Alliser claims that Aemon is old and senile and Slynt want to know who the hell Aemon is to think that he can influence the situation. Aemon Targaryen, Jon thought, a king’s son and a king’s brother and a king who might have been. But he said nothing. Slynt tells Jon that he won't have it said that he hanged a man unjustly and says that he's going to give Jon a chance to prove his loyalty to the Night's Watch. Slynt says that Mance Rayder wants to speak with an envoy, so he and Thorne think that Jon is the perfect candidate. Slynt says that if Jon isn't willing to speak with Mance then he'll be returned to his ice cell only without the luxury of his furs. Jon can tell that the idea for him to be the one sent to speak with Mance is Thorne's idea and understands that Thorne is a smarter man than Slynt. Jon agrees to go but tells Slynt and Thorne that they're making a mistake. He explains that Mance is going to be angry with him for betraying the wildlings and says that they likely won't be able to reach terms if he ends up being the envoy. Thorne laughs at the idea of reaching terms with the wildlings and says that Jon is being sent to kill Mance. Tormund rides up to meet Jon and Jon explains that his brothers have sent him to speak with Mance. Tormund acknowledges that Mance probably isn't going to speak with Jon but admits that he wants to speak with a representative of the Night's Watch. Tormund and Jon talk about the fighting and Jon mentions that Donal Noye was responsible for killing Mag the Mighty. Tormund is impressed that a one armed blacksmith killed a giant and thinks that Mance will make a song about it one day. Tormund shares his wine with Jon as they head back to the wildling camp. Tormund asks Jon what happened to his leg and Jon explains that Ygritte hit him with an arrow. Tormund seems amused by this and Jon informs him that Ygritte is dead. Tormund is sorry to hear it and says that he would have "stolen" Ygritte himself if he'd been a younger man. They drink to Ygritte and Tormund asks Jon if he's the one who killed her. Jon says that one of his brothers was responsible but he doesn't know which one. Tormund mentions that his daughter Munda was stolen by Longspear. He talks about how Munda fought Longspear and bit half of his ear off in addition to two of her brothers fighting him before he successfully carried her off. Jon remembers that Ygritte was fond of Longspear hopes that he and Munda will be happy together. They make it back to the wildling camp and go to Mance's tent. Mance tells Jon that he's stupid to show up there wearing a black cloak and Jon replies that there's nothing else that man of the Night's Watch can wear. Harma Dogshead wants them to send Jon's headless body back to the Wall and Varamyr reminds Mance that he warned him that Jon wasn't to be trusted. Tormund tells Varamyr to back off and explains that Jon is there to listen. He threatens to take Varamyr's shadowskin cloak if he threatens Jon again. The skinchanger was grey-faced, round-shouldered, and bald, a mouse of a man with a wolfling’s eyes. “Once a horse is broken to the saddle, any man can mount him,” he said in a soft voice. “Once a beast’s been joined to a man, any skinchanger can slip inside and ride him. Orell was withering inside his feathers, so I took the eagle for my own. But the joining works both ways, warg. Orell lives inside me now, whispering how much he hates you. And I can soar above the Wall, and see with eagle eyes.” Mance invites Jon into his tent and commands the others to stay outside. Dalla is inside and is on the verge of going into labor. Val is attending her sister and Jon has a moment where he thinks about how pretty she is. He tells Val that he's sorry that Jarl is dead. Jon sees the huge horn that Mance has in his tent and Mance says that it's the legendary Horn of Winter. Jon asks Mance why he hasn't used the horn and Dalla replies that if they were to do so it would basically be like handling a sword without a hilt. Mance talks about all of the things that he could do to breach the Wall but explains that he feels that enough of his people have died. He also talks about what happened at the Fist of the First Men and makes it clear that he thinks the Others are the bigger enemy. Mance doesn't want to bring down the Wall because it seems like being on the other side of the Wall would be the best way to provide protection for his people. Mance tells Jon that if the Night's Watch allow he and his men to pass through the Wall that he'll surrender the Horn of Winter. Jon asks if Mance will be able to talk his people into obeying the laws of the land on the other side and Mance makes it plain that they're going to continue to live as they have. They won't kneel, they won't pay taxes, and they won't follow any of the other rules that are currently in place in the Seven Kingdoms. Mance says that if the Night's Watch refuse this offer then Tormund is going to blow the horn at dawn in exactly three days. He could carry the message back to Castle Black and tell them of the horn, but if he left Mance still alive Lord Janos and Ser Alliser would seize on that as proof that he was a turncloak. A thousand thoughts flickered through Jon’s head. If I can destroy the horn, smash it here and now... but before he could begin to think that through, he heard the low moan of some other horn, made faint by the tent’s hide walls. Mance heard it too. Frowning, he went to the door. Jon followed. Jon wonders if it could be the Others but Mance says that the Others don't come when the sun is still up. Mance is told that men in steel and in black are approaching, and Mance wonders if the Night's Watch sent Jon as a distraction so that they could catch him with his pants down. Jon says that if this is an attack from the Watch that he wasn't told anything about it. Mance tells Jon that if he's lying to him again then he isn't going to be allowed to leave their camp alive. When men begin surrounding the camp, Mance gets on his horse and commands Varamyr to watch over Dalla. He also orders Varamyr to kill Jon if he attempts to run. Varamyr starts to scream when the eagle that he's warged into is hit with fire. Varamyr screams repeatedly and Val comes outside to find out what's going on. Val is upset when she realizes that Mance has gone to fight and says that Dalla is about to have her baby. Jon is confused about where this cavalry is coming from and tells Val to get back into the tent. Val wants to find a midwife for Dalla but Jon tells her that she's going to have to be Dalla's midwife because of this unexpected attack. He agrees to stay with the two women until Mance returns. Varamyr ends up crawling away from the scene on his hands and knees. The fighting goes on for a bit before Mance's people begin to scatter and run. Harma's head ends up on a pole, the Thenns run for their lives, and Tormund's lines are completely broken. Jon wonders for a moment if King Robert is leading this charge of men, but then hears the knights shouting the name of Stannis as they charge. Once he hears this, Jon returns back to Mance's tent. 3 Link to comment
Lady S. October 4, 2017 Share October 4, 2017 (edited) Ok, so I've always been confused by the logistics of the beginning of this chapter, with Jon going down in the cage on the north side of the Wall because the gate is still blocked. In every other chapter the elevator is only on the Castle Black side of the wall, with the now-destroyed staircase. Is the book-lift just a crane connected to the cage so that you can go up the southern side and then the crane could carry it over the width of the Wall (which is supposed to be as wide as a road where a dozen knights could ride abreast or something iirc) to the other side if need be? I guess that means there's no tracks for the lift like on the show, just a cage on the end of a long-ass chain connected to a crane and pulley system. You couldn't pay me to go up or down 700ft in an apparatus like that. I'd be panicking every time the cage swayed too much or stopped and started suddenly, let alone going over the top of the Wall to go down the other side. 8 hours ago, Avaleigh said: Tormund tells Varamyr to back off and explains that Jon is there to listen. He threatens to take Varamyr's shadowskin cloak if he threatens Jon again. I interpreted that as Tormund saying he could kill Varamyr's shadowcat, like all the people saying they'd like a wolfskin cloak/rug referring to the Starklings' direwolves. So, Tormund later tells Jon in Dance that Mance's horn, which Mel had burned, was a fake. Jon wonders if Tormund is lying to him or if Mance had lied before, but Mance says in this scene that he's a liar like Jon. He certainly doesn't have more reason to trust Jon after his suspicions about Jon lying were proved right, and nothing to lose by trying to trick people with an imagined nuclear option. If his bluff is called and Tormund doesn't use the Horn to bring down the Wall, they'd just go on fighting and the wildlings could eventually win. Mance would have to know that however much they bled, bleeding his army until they broke through one of the tunnel-gates would always be less costly than bringing down the Wall he so wished to hide behind and letting the Others spread through Westeros. And if his hunt in the Frostfangs was never really about finding the real horn, it makes sense that he'd keep his horn a secret from the likes of Ygritte, and presumably the majority of his army, with only the inner circle like Tormund and Dalla knowing what he was up to, because Ygritte was incapable of understanding the real purpose of the Wall or why they were really migrating south, and I guess she represented the typical free folk perspective. Jon's question of whether Mance could truly rule his people south of the Wall is a good one, and should be a dealbreaker if the NW was in a real bargaining position. I wonder if Mance's unwillingness to be a kneeler is still a stubborn reaction to the restricted life he was forced to live in his years in the NW or an overcompensation for his freefolk cred because he was kept from his people, raised among the enemy and has to be afraid of his people turning on him if he, the former crow who fought his way to be king, was seen to betray their way of life. It's ironic that Tormund in many ways comes off as the ultimate wildling, yet in both book and show, he is the one to ultimately save his people and bring them past the Wall by making a deal with Jon, which explains why the show expanded his role in s3-s4. In this chapter Jon is again in a dilemma with the wildlings where all the choices are bad, an even more impossible situation than he was with Mance or Styr before, and Stannis's army plays the same role Bran/Summer did at Queenscrown. Once again he is saved just in the nick of time with the exact kind of help he needed. I don't think it's until his arc as lord commander that Jon has to make all the hard choices, sometimes morally compromising himself, with no escape from the possible consequences. Edited October 4, 2017 by Lady S. 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh October 4, 2017 Share October 4, 2017 Agreed that there's no way I'd be willing to ride in that rickety ass elevator. Thorne and Slynt continue to be the gruesome twosome. I admit that I laughed out loud when Slynt said that Mance is probably scared that he's going to hang him like Mance somehow knows who he is or would ever be afraid of him. Show Thorne seemed to value Maester Aemon more than book Thorne does. Book Thorne doesn't seem to respect him at all. He just thinks he's a senile old man whose opinion no longer matters. His hatred of Jon is just ridiculously OTT. Regarding Slynt's attitude towards Jon, you'd think that Tyrion Lannister was Jon's father in terms of the way Slynt treats him. Neither man seems to appreciate the seriousness of the situation or is acknowledging that they need every man that they have. When Mance talks about the wildlings digging their way through one of the blocked gates at one of the abandoned castles I thought, "Why didn't they just do that a long time ago?" It certainly would have saved lives and with all of the giants on their side it seems like a realistic possibility. It would have taken the Watch some time to even realize what was going on and by the time they did figure it out, the wildlings might have been able to break through. I don't understand what the big deal is about agreeing to obey the laws on the other side of the Wall especially if the choices are that or being on the side with the Others. The laws are pretty basic and who the hell will they have to kneel to anyway? Like these people would be interacting with the royal family or some great lords and ladies every day? Life would pretty much be the same way only there will be consequences if they go around trying to "steal" women and stuff like that. Speaking of stealing women, I cringed when Tormund was talking about how Longspear took his daughter and how she and two of her brothers tried to fight him off. Now of course they're all happily ever after. I can't with these people and how they think this shit is normal. That being said, Tormund is one of the wildlings I like most. I appreciate that he doesn't have hard feelings about Jon and was weirdly friendly considering everything that's happened and is currently going on. I kind of wish that Val had made it into the show. I also like that Mance greatly values Dalla's opinion. Interesting that Harma is all hot to trot wanting to cut Jon's head off so that she can use it as her standard or whatever it was that she wanted, only to end up being decapitated a few pages later. 2 Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 4, 2017 Share October 4, 2017 I don't know that Thorne's hatred for Jon is necessarily OTT. Thorne worked and lived in King's Landing before the rebellion and got sent to the Wall because he remained loyal to the Targs. Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion. I can see him transferring that bitterness and hatred of anything Stark onto Jon. It's too bad we never got to see how he interacted with Benjen. And he and Benjen would have come to the Wall at the same time or with a few months between them. Thorne doesn't really like anyone and there are people he straight up hates. Those ice cells sound extremely uncomfortable and if Jon is kept there while his body is dead, I wonder how that's going to look like. Maybe it won't be longer than 4 days. I always found Varamyr's experience inside Orell's eagle interesting and how nearly goes insane when the eagle dies while he's warging him. And I just wonder if this won't come back into play. This is one of those chapters where I enjoy the side characters like Cotter Pyke who is blunt and straight to the point even in his letters. I just hate thinking that he might have died at the end of Dance. 1 Link to comment
John Potts October 4, 2017 Share October 4, 2017 (edited) I expect the NW are happy to use the lift - it's not as if the steps are impeccably maintained, certainly not on the North side of the Wall. There's no H&SE inspectors (OSHA) checking they're safe - in fact, in all likelihood they're deliberately badly maintained to make it harder for the Wildings to use them to assault the Wall. It's all a question of what you're used to. Harma's head appearing on a pole confuses me a little, because it seems like the sort of thing you do when you some time to stop (in the Lord of the Rings - book and film - the orcs DO send decapitated heads over the walls of Minas Tirith, but that was a siege where Sauron's army had a lot of folk who were able to take the time to do non-combat terror tactics). It seems even less likely that an advancing army would take the time out to and dismember the dead. I have no trouble believing that it's the sort of thing that could happen (especially in Westeros), I just wonder when they found the time. 6 hours ago, Avaleigh said: I don't understand what the big deal is about agreeing to obey the laws on the other side of the Wall especially if the choices are that or being on the side with the Others. The laws are pretty basic and who the hell will they have to kneel to anyway? Isn't that GRRM's whole point though about what Jorah's said: "The common people dream of good harvests and a Summer that never ends while the nobles play their Game of Thrones - they just want to be left alone. They never are."? People will fight over things that really shouldn't matter when the world's going to (Seven) Hell(s) - for pride, flags, minor disagreements over religion - when they really should see the bigger picture. Edited October 4, 2017 by John Potts 3 Link to comment
Lady S. October 5, 2017 Share October 5, 2017 5 hours ago, John Potts said: I expect the NW are happy to use the lift - it's not as if the steps are impeccably maintained, certainly not on the North side of the Wall. There's no H&SE inspectors (OSHA) checking they're safe - in fact, in all likelihood they're deliberately badly maintained to make it harder for the Wildings to use them to assault the Wall. It's all a question of what you're used to. Why would there even be steps on the north side where the wildlings could use them? That would have come into play in the previous chapters' battles if they were there. The rangers use the tunnel to cross back and forth and we see here the crane-and-cage is an option if the tunnel is temporarily out of commission. 8 hours ago, YaddaYadda said: I don't know that Thorne's hatred for Jon is necessarily OTT. Thorne worked and lived in King's Landing before the rebellion and got sent to the Wall because he remained loyal to the Targs. Ned was one of the leaders of the rebellion. I can see him transferring that bitterness and hatred of anything Stark onto Jon. It's too bad we never got to see how he interacted with Benjen. And he and Benjen would have come to the Wall at the same time or with a few months between them. Thorne doesn't really like anyone and there are people he straight up hates. I doubt it has much to do with Targ loyalism when he's buddying up to a proud Lannister crony to carry out this vendetta. A Kingslander has more cause to hate the Lannisters than the Starks, especially as it was Tywin's orders in the Sack which sent him to the Wall. Thorne hates most everyone but his conflict with Jon escalated to murder in these circumstances for petty reasons. Something I don't think I wondered before is how Mance got word that he wanted to treat with someone. If he sent Tormund or someone waving a white flag I feel like Slynt would ignore that and give orders to fill him with arrows. If not, does the messenger shout to the top of the Wall? I guess Mance could have Varamyr direct his eagle over the Wall to drop a message, assuming Mance was taught to read and write when he was in the NW. To get back to something we wondered earlier, this bit is why I really don't think Jon knew about the Red Wedding yet: Quote An army. The king? Jon was as confused as the wildlings. Could Robb have returned? Had the boy on the Iron Throne finally bestirred himself? When he sees the Baratheon banners and thinks of Robert, he knows it to be to a mad thought, but there's no reminding himself that Robb will never return. Earlier when he thinks of how Robb had become a hero king, there's no thought of him being remembered posthumously that way, only of Jon's own possible post-death reputation. I don't think it's that weird that the news hasn't reached Castle Black yet. Maester Aemon had been sending out calls for aid to the northern bannermen for awhile with no response. It'd be worth noting if one of the lords wrote "can't come and btw, Robb Stark died in a massacre at a wedding". In the first book Jeor/Jon would have been getting their news about Ned straight from Winterfell and King's Landing. There's nobody left at Winterfell and as Robb's death was not exactly an official royal execution like Ned's, Pycelle wouldn't really need to make an announcement about it. Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 5, 2017 Share October 5, 2017 10 hours ago, Lady S. said: I doubt it has much to do with Targ loyalism when he's buddying up to a proud Lannister crony to carry out this vendetta. A Kingslander has more cause to hate the Lannisters than the Starks, especially as it was Tywin's orders in the Sack which sent him to the Wall. Thorne hates most everyone but his conflict with Jon escalated to murder in these circumstances for petty reasons. I'm not saying that it's because Throne was a Targ loyalist that he hated Jon. In any case, Throne supporting Janos Slynt meant that he could get what he wanted, and everyone knew he and his cronies were spoiling to have Jon executed. 10 hours ago, Lady S. said: Something I don't think I wondered before is how Mance got word that he wanted to treat with someone. If he sent Tormund or someone waving a white flag I feel like Slynt would ignore that and give orders to fill him with arrows. If not, does the messenger shout to the top of the Wall? I guess Mance could have Varamyr direct his eagle over the Wall to drop a message, assuming Mance was taught to read and write when he was in the NW. And how did he find out that Robert was coming north to Winterfell? That's another one. If we are putting this into a timeline, Mance had to have found out before the raven arrived at Winterfell, no? Mance has to make his way to the Wall, climb it, head down the kingsroad before Robert arrives at Winterfell, fall in with his party. Link to comment
Lady S. October 6, 2017 Share October 6, 2017 21 hours ago, YaddaYadda said: And how did he find out that Robert was coming north to Winterfell? That's another one. If we are putting this into a timeline, Mance had to have found out before the raven arrived at Winterfell, no? Mance has to make his way to the Wall, climb it, head down the kingsroad before Robert arrives at Winterfell, fall in with his party. Well, I think the travel time for Mance going over the Wall to Winterfell would still be less than Robert going from KL to Winterfell, so it's doable between the letter and the feast. But yeah, how that gossip trickled out to Mance is still a question mark. Link to comment
Avaleigh October 8, 2017 Share October 8, 2017 Arya XIII Arya and the Hound stop at an inn and Arya tries to talk the Hound out of going inside. She reminds him that he might be recognized but he doesn't seem to care. He wants to have a drink and feels confident that he'll be able to defend himself if necessary. Arya recognizes a couple of the soldiers after they step inside and one of them (Polliver) calls out to Sandor to ask him if he's looking for his brother. Polliver gives Arya a brief glance but doesn't seem to know her. The Tickler stares at Arya for a long time but doesn't say anything. A squire seated with the Tickler and Polliver begins to mock the Hound for leaving the Battle of the Blackwater and doesn't stop until the Tickler twists the kid's ear. Polliver tries to excuse the squire's behavior by giving the excuse that the boy is drunk. When the innkeeper brings Sandor his wine, Sandor encourages him to take the money that he's thrown at him and makes it clear that Polliver & co. have no intention of paying. He goes on to say that the Tickler will likely torture him so that they can find out where the innkeeper keeps his gold. The innkeeper suddenly realizes that he has something to do and the locals begin to leave as well. As Arya watches them leave, she thinks that she and the Hound should leave too. Polliver tells the Hound that if he's looking for Gregor, he's in King's Landing because Cersei sent for him. Polliver mentions that Joffrey was poisoned to death at his own wedding feast. Arya edged farther into the room. Joffrey’s dead. She could almost see him, with his blond curls and his mean smile and his fat soft lips. Jofftey’s dead! She knew it ought to make her happy, but somehow she still felt empty inside. Joffrey was dead, but if Robb was dead too, what did it matter? When the Hound asks who's responsible for Joffrey's death, Polliver says that Sansa and Tyrion are to blame. Polliver says that Sansa used some sort of spell to kill Joffrey and then turned herself into a wolf with wings afterward so that she could fly away. Polliver also mentions that Tyrion and Sansa got married. Arya doesn't believe any of it and thinks there's no way that her sister would marry Tyrion. Polliver continues to update the Hound on everything that's been going on and says that Gregor took Harrenhal away from Vargo Hoat. Polliver says that once Harrenhal was taken, they put everyone to the sword save a few women plus the cook who opened a gate for them in retaliation for Vargo cutting off his foot. The Hound and Arya learn that the Blackfish is under siege at Riverrun and that the Freys plan on hanging Edmure if the Blackfish doesn't give in. The only real fighting in the Riverlands is between the Brackens and the Blackwoods. Polliver says that the Brackens are currently on Team Lannister. Polliver also informs them that Sansa's sister has been found and is set to marry Roose Bolton's bastard. Arya is confused and thinks that these guys are under the impression that Sansa has two sisters. The Hound is amused when he hears about this. He also seems happy when he learns that Sansa finally managed to escape from King's Landing. The Hound asks the men they know if there are any ships in the Saltpans and the Tickler makes it clear that Gregor would want the Hound to return with them to Harrenhal or even to King's Landing. The Hound basically says that there's no fucking way and they all soon begin fighting. The Tickler throws a knife at the Hound but it only grazes his ribs. When Arya sees that the squire is about to join in the fight, she throws a cup of wine in his face and the squire falls down on his ass. She proceeds to try the same trick with the Tickler but the Tickler is able to duck out of the way. Arya feels herself beginning to panic and remembers how the Tickler would torture people at Harrenhal. The Hound isn't fighting as well as he normally would and Arya quickly realizes that it's because he's drunk. His moves are slow and clumsy and soon Polliver has sliced part of his ear off. The Tickler slashes at the back of the Hound's neck and Arya realizes that Polliver and the Tickler are winning the fight. She tries to throw a dagger at the Tickler but he's only hit with the hilt and doesn't even seem to notice. When she tries again to help the Hound, the squire intervenes and Arya responds by stabbing him in the belly. Polliver and the Tickler had driven the Hound into a corner behind a bench, and one of them had given him an ugly red gash on his upper thigh to go with his other wounds. Sandor was leaning against the wall, bleeding and breathing noisily. He looked as though he could barely stand, let alone fight. “Throw down the sword, and we’ll take you back to Harrenhal,” Polliver told him. The Hound makes it clear that he isn't going to let Gregor finish him off. He tells Polliver and the Tickler to come and get him. The Hound gains the advantage and is able to kill Polliver. Once Polliver is dead, the Tickler gets scared and proceeds to back away. Arya takes the opportunity to stab the Tickler in the back. She asks him if there's gold in the village and stabs him repeatedly. She asks him the same questions that he asked all of the people he tortured at Harrenhal. Sandor eventually has to drag her away from the Tickler's body and tells her that she's done enough. The Hound can see that the squire's wound is fatal. He basically tells Arya to put the squire out of his misery. The squire tells them that he only came to the inn for the girls and begs to be taken to a castle so that he can see a maester. He says that his father has gold, begs for mercy, and asks not to be killed. Arya retrieves Needle from Polliver's dead body and gives the squire the mercy of death. The Hound says that they'll make for the Saltpans and see if they can get a ship to take them to the Vale. It's clear that he's in pain and he even needs Arya's help to get back onto his horse. Arya tends to Sandor's wounds and he eventually passes out from the pain. Later that night she goes through her list of names. “Ser Gregor the Mountain,” she said softly. “Dunsen, Raff the Sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei.” It made her feel queer to leave out Polliver and the Tickler. And Joffrey too. She was glad he was dead, but she wished she could have been there to see him die, or maybe kill him herself. Polliver said that Sansa killed him, and the Imp. Could that be true? The Imp was a Lannister, and Sansa... I wish I could change into a wolf and grow wings and fly away. Arya thinks about how she's the only Stark left if it's true that Sansa is gone. She doesn't think that Jon counts because he's a Snow and thinks about how the relatives of hers who are left aren't wolves. She wonders why she's left the Hound's name off of her list and whispers his name before saying "valar morghulis" They try to travel the next day but the Hound is too weak to go on. When he tries to dismount his horse, he falls and crawls over to a tree. He's feverish and his ear wound continues to bleed. Arya brings him some water and starts wondering if she should head for the Saltpans on her own. She thinks about leaving the Hound to die and wonders if she should just kill him herself. She thinks about Mycah and tells herself that the Hound has probably killed hundreds of Mycahs. Arya takes Needle into her hand and the Hound opens his eyes and asks her if she remembers where the heart is. Arya attempts to deny what she was considering and the Hound tells her not to lie. “Don’t lie,” he growled. “I hate liars. I hate gutless frauds even worse. Go on, do it.” When Arya did not move, he said, “I killed your butcher’s boy. I cut him near in half, and laughed about it after.” He made a queer sound, and it took her a moment to realize he was sobbing. “And the little bird, your pretty sister, I stood there in my white cloak and let them beat her. I took the bloody song, she never gave it. I meant to take her too. I should have. I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out before leaving her for that dwarf.” A spasm of pain twisted his face. “Do you mean to make me beg, bitch? Do it! The gift of mercy... avenge your little Michael...” Arya reminds the Hound that her friend's name was Mycah and tells him that he doesn't deserve the gift of mercy. When Arya gets on her horse, the Hound tells her that a real wolf would kill a wounded animal. Arya thinks to herself that maybe the Hound will be found by real wolves. She tells him that he shouldn't have hit her in the back of the head with an axe and says that he should have tried to save her mother. She rides away and doesn't look back. Arya makes it to the Saltpans and sells her horse so that she can have some money for passage on a ship. Unfortunately, the woman she sells the horse to is convinced that the horse is stolen so only gives her a small bit of silver. When she gives the silver to the captain, she can tell by the look on his face that it won't be enough. She learns that the ship is headed for Braavos and when the captain tries to turn her away, Arya suddenly remembers the coin that Jaqen gave her. She presents the coin to the captain and he's obviously surprised by this development and wonders how she came by it. She adds the words "valar morghulis" and the captain replies by saying, "valar dohaeris". He tells her that she may have a cabin for the journey. 4 Link to comment
benteen October 13, 2017 Share October 13, 2017 I admit, I'm a fan of how both of these sequences turn out in the book and the show for various reasons. Arya is very hardcore in these scenes. I remember her putting the squire out of his misery and it's interesting that it wasn't on the show. 1 Link to comment
Avaleigh October 14, 2017 Share October 14, 2017 (edited) Samwell IV Gilly is nursing Mance Rayder's son as well as her own and Sam thinks about how neither boy has been given a name yet. Some of the wildlings refer to Mance's son as the "little prince" or "born in battle". Sam notices Jon smiling as he watches Gilly and the baby, and Sam feels reassured by this display because it's the first time he's seen Jon smile since his return. Sam thinks about how he and Gilly ran into Ser Denys Mallister, Bowen Marsh and others on the way back to Castle Black and how they all filled him in on everything that's been happening at the Wall and with the wildlings. Now that Stannis's army has captured Mance and defeated the wildling army, Stannis and his men are staying at Castle Black. Sam thinks about how this is the first time in living memory that a king has been at the King's Tower. Sam gets a warm reception from Pyp and Grenn and they give him more information about Stannis. Sam learns that Stannis left his wife and daughter back at Eastwatch but made sure to bring Melisandre of Asshai with him to Castle Black. Grenn says that Melisandre is the king's sorceress and mentions that she burned a man alive back at Dragonstone to make sure that Stannis would have favorable winds when he sailed north. Grenn also tells Sam about Lightbringer and seems impressed with the way it glows. Jon is happy to see Sam and is impressed that Sam made it back to the Wall with Gilly. He tells Sam that he's done well and Sam thinks that Jon's done well for himself too. He thinks about how Jon's achievements haven't been enough to satisfy men like Thorne and Slynt and how they still think of Jon as a turncloak. Sam can tell that Jon is still grieving for his wildling girlfriend and all of the brothers that they've lost. Jon comments on how strange it is that Gilly is feeding Mance's baby when her father and Mance had no love for each other. Val thinks that Mance should be allowed to see his son before he dies and Sam explains to her that only Maester Aemon is allowed to see Mance at present. Jon says that if it were up to him Mance would be allowed to see his son. He promises Val that he'll ask to see if it can be arranged but makes it clear that he can't guarantee it. When Jon and Sam are walking together, Jon comments about how fond Sam is of Gilly and Sam acknowledges that being with Gilly makes him feel braver than he did before. He also misses her now that he's back to sleeping alone in his cell. Jon warns Sam that he won't be able to "keep" Gilly just as he wasn't allowed to stay with Ygritte. Sam admits that Gilly said that she'd be a wife to him but he told her about his vows to the Watch. Sam asks if there can be honor in a lie if it's for a good purpose and Jon says that it depends on the lie and what the purpose is. He advises Sam against telling one and says that he isn't a good liar. Sam says that he's considering writing to his family to tell them that Gilly's baby is his child in the hope that his mother will be willing to take Gilly and the baby in. Jon thinks that it's possible that the kid could end up having a decent life and might even be able to become a knight one day but says that it'll depend on a variety of factors. He also questions whether or not Gilly will be able to lie convincingly. The conversation turns to whether or not most of the brothers of the Night's Watch believe that Jon is a turncloak. Sam says that only Thorne and his friends believe that Jon is a turncloak but this hasn't stopped the Watch from relieving Jon of his duties until further notice. Jon has been spending his time training even though his leg hasn't fully healed. They talk about how Janos Slynt is in the running to be Lord Commander and how Thorne dropped out of the race after the second day of voting. Jon talks about how the men think he's a warg and Jon wonders how they can think that when he no longer has a wolf. He doesn't even dream of Ghost anymore. Quote All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes I hear Robb’s voice, and my father’s, as if they were at a feast. But there’s a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.” Sam wants to tell Jon that Bran is still alive but remembers that he gave his word to Bran, Jojen, and Coldhands to stay silent. Sam tries to make Jon feel better by saying that there's no way that Janos Slynt will be Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, but Jon thinks that it looks like Slynt is going to win. Now that Ser Endrew is dead and Thorne is "disinterested" Jon has taken it upon himself to train the new recruits to the Watch. Sam thinks about the contenders for the position of Lord Commander and how Slynt has steadily been gaining votes. Denys Mallister, Bowen Marsh, and Cotter Pyke are all in the running and Sam feels that they all have a better chance than Slynt. When Sam goes to check the tally, Denys Mallister is in the lead followed by Cotter Pyke, Slynt, Othell Yarwyck, Bowen Marsh, Three Fingered Hobb, and Dolorous Edd. Edd only has one vote and Sam thinks that this was a little joke of Pyp's. Slynt is the only one of the candidates who is steadily gaining votes. While Sam is feeding the ravens, he thinks about how Stannis is the only king who answered the call of the Night's Watch. Sam knows that his father declared for Joffrey and now Tommen but notes how neither boy king has bothered to answer the Watch's cry for help. Sam wonders what good a king is if he doesn't bother to defend his realm. After the men have dinner, Maester Aemon asks if anyone has anything to say before the voting begins. Dolorous Edd admits that he'd be an awful Lord Commander but says that this is also true of the other nominees. Bowen Marsh speaks next to take his name out of the running. Marsh lends his support to Slynt and brings up the fact that Slynt commanded the gold cloaks down in King's Landing. When the count is done Mallister has two hundred and three votes, Pyke has one hundred and sixty nine, Slynt has one hundred and thirty seven, and Yarwyck has seventy two. When there is a discrepancy in the count, Maester Aemon reveals that Jon didn't bother to cast a vote. Later that night in Pyp's cell, Sam, Grenn and Pyp talk about what they can do to sway the vote so that Slynt doesn't win. Pyp thinks that because Sam killed an Other and is of noble birth, in addition to being the maester's steward, that Pyke or Mallister might be willing to listen to him to get one of the men to support the other so that Slynt doesn't win. Sam seems resistant to do this but is reluctantly considering the idea. Edited October 14, 2017 by Avaleigh 3 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 15, 2017 Share October 15, 2017 Playing a massive game of catch up. I had forgotten how much I enjoyed Jon's chapter for everything that's being said there. I won't dwell on it too much but Janos Slynt really is a tiresome idiot continually referring to himself in the third person and suggesting that Mance fucking Rayder would even have any idea who he is, let alone be intimidated by a disgraced political toady who doesn't seem to have done anything in the five minutes since he got to the Wall but be a right prick about the use of honorifics and lock up the one guy who was leading the effort to defend the place. I don't know how much it even matters whether the horn is the real deal as much as it matters that Mance can convince Jon or whoever might matter that it is. It's certainly true that without an unexpected army all but dropping in out of the sky as it does here, he's got the numbers to wage war of attrition against the dwindling Nights Watch, do an end run around either end, or dig their way through the tunnels, but if he can save himself and his people the trouble and bluff his way into getting them to open the gate and let them walk through, why not? Especially with the white walker threat adding a time element to it all. Of course we already know the whole idea's going to be a nonstarter with the tagteam duo of Slynt and Thorne but Jon gets yet another conveniently timed save before he has to try to figure out how to navigate that. With Mance basically announcing their intentions not to kneel or obey the laws, etc., I do wonder how exactly how he envisioned that playing out long term. In the short term with the bigger threat looming, no, it doesn't really matter. But are they thinking they're going to resettle in the North or elsewhere as an island unto themselves where they won't have to make any accommodations to keep peace with their neighbors like, oh, not stealing women? And they just expect there won't be any pushback on that? I know the narrative has been that pretty much everyone has forgotten that the original purpose of the Wall was not just to keep the evil wildlings out, but that's how it's been used and enforced for the last several thousand years now. That sentiment isn't likely to evaporate overnight, particularly if the wildings in question clearly have no intention of at least trying to assimilate. 1 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 15, 2017 Share October 15, 2017 Still playing catch up. I love how Arya's first thought at hearing that Sansa had married Tyrion and was accused of killing Joffers with magic and escaping by turning herself into a bat is that Sansa doesn't know magic. There's a lot of information being conveyed here rather quickly, including that faux Arya's being shipped North as a Bolton bride, which rightly deserves the Hound's laughter even if real Arya doesn't fully understand it. Arya is pretty hardcore in stabbing the squire and then the Tickler in what has to be a pretty cathartic moment for her after all the horror she's seen and barely escaped on this unending road trip. There's such a confused ambivalence though when it comes to the Hound. She's been with him for awhile now and is having trouble remembering Micah or that the Hound's supposed to be on her list to the point that even when he's clearly goading her to get her to put him out of his misery, she'd rather ride off and leave him to whatever happens than deliver that long promised killing stroke. The writing is so nice here, especially in the Hound's last big speech/confession that makes me wish we'd gotten more of his perspective along the way because even with the pain talking he's coming off just as full of mixed defiant bravado and regret as Jaime does in some of his own dark night of the soul moments. I laughed at the woman who buys the horse from Arya pegging her as not gentle born even if the horse is. I know accusing her of stealing the horse is probably an easy tactic to take to lowball a kid who's traveling alone with no protector, but it also says a little something about how long Arya's been running feral. I'm bored senseless by Arya's time in Braavos with a bunch interchangeable new characters not connected to anything else in the larger story and don't care at all about the Faceless Men, who always strike me as this series' version of a cheat code, so her boarding the ship is where my interest in Arya's part of story really plummets. 2 Link to comment
John Potts October 15, 2017 Share October 15, 2017 It's chapters like this that were such a beacon of light in the long slog of many Chapters - if there's one thing GRRM does well, it's the politicking, whether it's Tyrion as Hand in Kings Landing, the upcoming election for the new Night Watch Commander or (spoiler, I guess?) the Kingsmoot to select the next holder of the Seastone Chair. I just love the fact that even while face the Zompocalypse, people will engage in dick waving rather than actually doing something about it (a sadly accurate reflection of real life). Also, it's nice to see Jon smile for once (so to speak). I really feel that Stannis (the Mannis) got short shrift on the show, so it's nice that he gets some love here (if only from Sam). 1 Link to comment
benteen October 16, 2017 Share October 16, 2017 I love the chapter on the Night's Watch election. Marsh proved himself a poor judge of character (to say he least) but endorsing Slynt. Edd was quite funny as always. I like the actor who played Edd on the show but nothing beats Book Edd. I don't even want to think about how bad the Night's Watch would have been under Slynt's leadership. For the Watch? Sam does some Littlefinger-type maneuvering to get Jon into office here. 2 Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 16, 2017 Share October 16, 2017 I tend to enjoy Sam's POVs and I like how no one ever acknowledges that Sam is Selyse's cousin once removed. And maybe he's safer that way. That said, I wonder what game Mance is playing at when he is taken prisoner and what kind of discussion he and Maester Aemon might have had. 2 Link to comment
Avaleigh October 17, 2017 Share October 17, 2017 I love it when Edd gets up and says that he'd be a terrible LC of the Night's Watch but that the same is true of the other candidates. What is wrong with the people who think that Slynt is the best choice when he's done nothing to prove himself to the men who don't know him well? Thorne dropped out of the race because of all of the people he's pissed off over the years but these same guys have no problem endorsing his candidate? What the hell is wrong with most of these guys? Meanwhile we have Maester Aemon revealing that Jon didn't even bother to vote. This is a perfect example of how every single vote is important and he seems like he's not willing to do his part to keep Slynt from winning. Going back to the Arya chapter, for me, this is her last good chapter. The Mercy chapter didn't really do much for me, and I'm not as enamored with Braavos as GRRM is. I remember reading something where he felt like the Braavos stuff with Arya could be its own book and I'm just not that into it. The stuff with the Faceless Men barely makes any sense to me anyway in terms of how they operate. One thing that's striking to me is at no point in the last chapter does Arya come across as being worried for Sansa's well being. She wonders if Sansa could be dead but she pretty much takes it in stride in comparison to the way she feels about the other members of her family. Interesting too that she has no interest in seeking out Lysa. Since she doesn't know anything about the sort of woman that Lysa has become you'd think part of her would feel the pull of wanting to see how life might be with one of the few relatives she has left. I can't help but think that if Lysa were her father's sister that she'd be more interested. Arya seems prejudiced against all of the non wolves. 2 Link to comment
YaddaYadda October 18, 2017 Share October 18, 2017 The thing I find the most interesting about Arya's chapters is that she is collecting information, and that in The Blind Girl, she even hears about Jon and how he is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, she sort of connects those threads for the Jon POV with the whole Mother Mole business of taking the wildlings to Hardhome, only for them to end up being sold as slaves in Essos. Other than that, I'm not sure I get the whole Faceless Men business, and it makes me wary of what it is that they want from her exactly and I wonder if they know she's a skinchanger. 1 Link to comment
benteen October 18, 2017 Share October 18, 2017 Good God, yes about this being the last interesting Arya chapter. GRRM said he could write Arya in Braavos stuff all the time but that doesn't instill me with confidence. LOL, excellent point on how the Night's Watch election is a perfect example of how every vote counts. Jon seems to do dumb stuff like this in his efforts to be noble. Quote One thing that's striking to me is at no point in the last chapter does Arya come across as being worried for Sansa's well being. She wonders if Sansa could be dead but she pretty much takes it in stride in comparison to the way she feels about the other members of her family. Interesting too that she has no interest in seeking out Lysa. Since she doesn't know anything about the sort of woman that Lysa has become you'd think part of her would feel the pull of wanting to see how life might be with one of the few relatives she has left. I can't help but think that if Lysa were her father's sister that she'd be more interested. Arya seems prejudiced against all of the non wolves. Excellent point about Arya being prejudiced against the non wolves. I would have thought she'd be interested in meeting the Blackfish and I think those two would have gotten along wonderfully. I can understand though how much of a wild card she would consider Blackfish and Lysa though, having not met either of them and not even sure if they'd be able to recognize her (she doesn't look like Catelyn either). Slynt gaining this much support is silly....appointing him would have literally been appointing an outsider to lead the Watch. He hadn't proven anything at this point. If Ned had been sent to the Wall, I can see him rising to Lord Commander very quickly but Ned's a proven leader, a proven man of the North and a loyal supporter of the Watch. Slynt isn't any of those things. 2 Link to comment
nodorothyparker October 18, 2017 Share October 18, 2017 It's interesting that the Night's Watch elections don't have any criteria beyond requiring a two-thirds majority or safeguards in place to keep them from dragging on for years and years if consensus can't be reached. But I suppose if you're at the end of the world with little to do except freeze your ass off and look at the snow, possible months of continual voting break up the monotony. The only justification we get at all for why anyone would be supporting an outsider who's been there for all of five minutes like Slynt is Bowen Marsh's endorsement that he was commander of the gold cloaks. So? He obviously has little pull in Kings Landing or he wouldn't have been shipped to the Wall in the first place and it's not like anyone there has shown any interest whatsoever in aiding the Watch anyway. He also doesn't seem to have done anything since he's been there but preen about titles and lock up an experienced fighter during an attack. It makes no sense that he should be gaining support against men they know with actual experience unless he's maybe making a lot of promises as a self-styled lord from the south that the mostly unlettered men of the Watch can't realistically know he has no way of keeping. Sam and Jon's discussion about Gilly reminds once again why the Watch would probably have had better luck recruiting and keeping men if they didn't force them to swear off everything for little payoff. Sam's talking about shipping Gilly and her baby half a continent away to live a lie under the father who hates him because he's not allowed the option to marry her and raise the boy as a next generation watcher on the Wall. It would likely encourage more of an air of stability that might draw recruits from other parts of the kingdoms to man all those abandoned castles if it was less penal colony and more permanent settlements against the south side of the Wall where the men could have and support wives and children who would grow up as next generation recruits. 1 Link to comment
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