The Official Re-Read Project - Book 3: A Storm Of Swords

[nodorothyparker]

The only real difference between what the Lannisters are doing here and what the Tyrells planned to do in marrying Sansa to Willas or even Ned in marrying her to Joffrey is that they're not bothering with the subterfuge of acting like it matters what Sansa thinks or letting her continue her fantasies of it being a case of true love or marrying her handsome prince.  It's still at the heart of it an arranged marriage probably not that terribly different than what countless Westerosi girls have had before her.    Sure, we can certainly argue that Ned was ready to cut his losses on the whole thing and try to arrange another when the twincest paternity mess came out before he literally lost his own head, but before that he was fine with it from the moment Robert suggested it.

Catelyn's chapters tell us that her original marriage arrangement was for Brandon, not Ned, and that she describes Ned as a "solemn stranger" when she wed and consummated that marriage.  Stannis's snark about it aside, we're never told how the wedding night went but we know the Tyrells were perfectly happy to marry Margaery to a man at least select members of that family knew to be gay to advance their fortunes.  And just how enthusiastic do we think Roslin Frey was if she truly understood that her family would be murdering her groom's family while she was in her bridal chamber?  As a ward of the crown, the crown had the right to make an appropriate marriage for Sansa.  The real difference in this chapter is that we're not just hearing about these things and thinking, well, that's how it is in this society.  We're seeing it through Sansa's POV and getting a firsthand look at how distasteful the idea of arranged marriages could really be.

[Jazzy24]

57 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

The only real difference between what the Lannisters are doing here and what the Tyrells planned to do in marrying Sansa to Willas or even Ned in marrying her to Joffrey is that they're not bothering with the subterfuge of acting like it matters what Sansa thinks or letting her continue her fantasies of it being a case of true love or marrying her handsome prince.  It's still at the heart of it an arranged marriage probably not that terribly different than what countless Westerosi girls have had before her.    Sure, we can certainly argue that Ned was ready to cut his losses on the whole thing and try to arrange another when the twincest paternity mess came out before he literally lost his own head, but before that he was fine with it from the moment Robert suggested it.

Catelyn's chapters tell us that her original marriage arrangement was for Brandon, not Ned, and that she describes Ned as a "solemn stranger" when she wed and consummated that marriage.  Stannis's snark about it aside, we're never told how the wedding night went but we know the Tyrells were perfectly happy to marry Margaery to a man at least select members of that family knew to be gay to advance their fortunes.  And just how enthusiastic do we think Roslin Frey was if she truly understood that her family would be murdering her groom's family while she was in her bridal chamber?  As a ward of the crown, the crown had the right to make an appropriate marriage for Sansa.  The real difference in this chapter is that we're not just hearing about these things and thinking, well, that's how it is in this society.  We're seeing it through Sansa's POV and getting a firsthand look at how distasteful the idea of arranged marriages could really be.

It's gross because these people do not care about her wellbeing at all. They have done nothing but abuse and humiliate her(mostly Joffery)and now they take an experience that she should be sharing with her family and turn it into another traumatic experience. 

Plus Sansa is a 12yr old girl here being forced to marry whereas I'm sure Ned and probably the Tyrells would have waited till she was about 16 years old the age girls in Westeros commonly wait to marry. 

These are the people who murdered her father and fellow Northernmen plus they're fighting a war against her family. This is not a marriage for Sansa, she's a hostage and is facing rape whenever Tyrion feels like taking his husbandry rights. 

Again the Lannisters are monsters and should be exterminated in the worst possible way. 

[Lady S.]

While book Tyrion is missing a nose and lacking PD's handsomeness, I feel like Sansa's disgust is heightened by her growing hatred of his awful family. I can't believe any noseless dwarf could really be more terrible face-wise than the Hound, because the way Sandor's burns are described in the books is just nasty. Sansa couldn't even bear to look at straight-on in any of their scenes so she's clearly got some rose-colored glasses on once he's gone. That's a recurring element of her memory of Sandor trying to deal with his very weird last scene with her, but in this instance with comparing him with Tyrion I think the fact that he deserted the Lannisters while Tyrion, her other former protector, is now part of the Lannister abuse was also a factor. I think the shock of the surprise wedding day also made her feel a lot worse than if she'd been warned by Tyrion as she was on the show, and the way Cersei revealed the nuptial news certainly didn't help.

The other line which jumps out to me on re-reads is Sansa thinking Tyrion was as frightened as she was. That really says a lot considering Sansa seems fucking terrified and for good reason as she was the one in the more vulnerable position here. It's on Tyrion for going as far as he did before he stopped but I don't think he was driven by his own sexual attraction for her and I don't think he could have gotten any real pleasure from consummation, especially with the Tysha triggering. I'll give some credit for preventing the bedding as threatening Joffrey was pretty dangerous and I don't think he could be 100% confident about Tywin backing him up.

[benteen]

Yeah, this really is a rough chapter for Sansa to say the least.

Joffrey again shows what kind of a degenerate he is.  His threat to rape her wasn't on the show as Joffrey didn't seem interested in rape or sex on the show and only seemed to get excited when he was torturing people (like Aerys).

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Garlan Tyrell asks Sansa to dance and ends up telling her how his brother Willas gave him the nickname Garlan the Gallant. Sansa thinks that the story is so silly and sweet that it makes her feel hopeful again. Garlan tells Sansa that he's seen the way she looks at Loras and says that Tyrion will make a better husband for her than Loras would. 

The Tyrells are slimy even though they like to act like they aren't but I really do like Garlan.

I think Maegarey did feel bad about what happened to Sansa but to her, it was just business.  Her family and their business is what is most important to her.

[nodorothyparker]

The Tyrells are about to murder a king to further their own aims and plant the murder weapon on the lovely Sansa they supposedly care about so much.  The're not exactly the white hats here, as their complete brush off to Sansa the moment she's off the table for them shows.  I also find it highly doubtful that they would have been just fine with Sansa going thanks guys, but no had she balked at all in marrying Willas if they had been successful in spiriting her away to Highgarden.  They would have wanted to hold her and get that marriage consummated as quickly as possible to remove her and her claim to the North as an option for the Lannisters.  I find myself curiously liking Garlan too with his remark that Tyrion is at least better husband material than Loras.

I don't begrudge Sansa her feelings here at all.   After everything that's happened to her, all of her pretty dreams of a happy ending are turning to ash all at once.  My heart always breaks a little for her in that scene of her refusing to kneel to make it easier for Tyrion, thinking "Why should I spare his feelings, when no one cares about mine?"  While I get from a purely strategic view why the Lannisters played the whole thing so close to the vest, Cersei did handle this about as badly as, well, Cersei, could had she been interested at all in not making it as awful as it was for Sansa.  It also makes me curious how they arranged an entire wedding and feast afterward without any noticeable activity or arousing any gossip in the Red Keep that Sansa might have at least caught wind of, but maybe I'm underestimating just how much goes on in a large castle on any given day.  

I also noticed that as vulnerable and terrified as she is, she's seeing that Tyrion is terrified too.  He's certainly got a lot more agency here throughout than Sansa does, but he's clearly not having a very good time of things either.  

The Lannisters continue to show off publicly that they can't get along with each other or treat each other civilly even at a wedding, while Joffrey never misses an opportunity to be vile.  You make it really hard to not root for your murder, kid.

Edited August 11, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

The Tyrells are really disappointing here. At least Margaery seems like she has a heart. The cousins ignoring her since she won't be part of their clan--they can still try to be friendly, jeez. They just don't care and it's like she isn't worth their time. 

Everyone is awful here and the only reason poor Sansa is spared the bedding is because Tywin doesn't want to be any more embarrassed than he already is. (Tyrion's very presence and existence seem to embarrass him.) 

For all of the flack that Sansa gets for not kneeling, I don't really understand giving her grief over it because she does ultimately kneel for the kiss. Not only that but she feels a pang over her stubbornness--it's not like she got some joy out of humiliating Tyrion or anything. The people who enjoyed humiliating him were the people like Joffrey and Cersei who went out of their way to be insensitive by laughing so loudly and joyously like it was the most amusing thing they'd ever seen. 

I love Garlan Tyrell. As far as marriages in this series it seems like Garlan and Leonette are among the happiest couples in the series. Not only happy but lucky. They seem to love each other and even though Garlan is a younger son he ends up becoming lord of one of the most important castles in the Reach. (Although I'm not sure if ever actually goes to Brightwater.) 

Regarding Joffrey--

In terms of sexuality, I find book Joffrey and show Joffrey to be very different. Book Joffrey is still sadistic and evil of course, but there are also times when he seems like a horny teenager who is desperate to see a pair of tits. Show Joffrey seemed more complicated and it seemed like there was some inner self loathing going on there that book Joffrey doesn't possess. If he'd lived, I feel like book Joffrey would probably have been a little bit more like Viserys in terms of sex although maybe a bit more cruel since he's allowed to get away with more. In general I don't think book Joffrey is all that complicated. He's an evil, bratty monster who would have grown worse and even more cruel over time, but somehow I feel like show Joffrey seemed even more evil if that's possible. Not only is he incredibly sadistic but I think he was a misanthropist in general and didn't really enjoy anything out of life apart from inflicting pain. The only thing book Joffrey has over show Joffrey in terms of cruelty is his treatment of Tommen. I don't recall him mistreating Tommen in the show (maybe he did and I'm just blanking) but book Joffrey was just awful to Tommen and AFFC hints that it might have been even worse than previously thought.  

[John Potts]

I'm slightly surprised that (given how she reacts to Tyrion's appearance) that Sansa DIDN'T choose Lancel instead - she would've been worse off really, s I can't see Lancel standing up to King Joff like Tyrion does. She probably wouldn't be caught up in Joffrey's assassination either, though whether that's a good or a bad thing being at Littlefinger's mercy rather than Joffrey's is a matter of opinion.
 

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benteen  His threat to rape her wasn't on the show as Joffrey didn't seem interested in rape or sex on the show and only seemed to get excited when he was torturing people (like Aerys).

 

He does say something along the lines of "Maybe I'll pay you a visit myself one of these nights", but I agree, he is more interested in sadism than sex (though rape would be a way to inflict both at once).
 

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Lady S  I can't believe any noseless dwarf could really be more terrible face-wise than the Hound, because the way Sandor's burns are described in the books is just nasty.

 

 

Isn't the Hound practically Two-Face in the books? Understandable that he's not so scarred in the show (just like Tyrion's nose), but I'm fairly sure Sandor's burns make his face horrific rather than just ugly.

[Lady S.]

On 8/11/2016 at 7:44 AM, benteen said:

Yeah, this really is a rough chapter for Sansa to say the least.

Joffrey again shows what kind of a degenerate he is.  His threat to rape her wasn't on the show as Joffrey didn't seem interested in rape or sex on the show and only seemed to get excited when he was torturing people (like Aerys).

It was on the show actually. They just toned it down by omitting him kissing her and copping a feel.

As to the Tyrells, IA that they would have wanted to get Sansa's claim locked down quickly. Maybe Willas would be decent enough to do as Tyrion did, forgoing the bedding and delaying consummation, but they certainly couldn't afford a protracted betrothal when the whole idea was to take her to Highgarden ostensibly only as a visitor and then make her Willas's wife before the Lannisters could stop them.  I think Garlan/Leonette and Marg did genuinely feel bad for her here, though. I don't see any ulterior motive Garlan could have for trying to cheer her up, nor for Marg to offer up a sad smile while Olenna and the cousins pretended she was invisible. I suspect Marg probably was bothered by the regicide/frame-up but people are loyal to their families and she'd been a piece in their political machinations since Renly was plotting to hook her up with Robert. Sansa does seem to recognize that there some truth in Dontos's warning about the Tyrells using her with the thought about trying to make Willas love her so he'd forget about Winterfell. She doesn't want anyone to steal Robb's kingdom, but the Lannisters are worse to her because they're the ones who have been holding her prisoner as a forced ward of the crown, abusing her both physically and emotionally the whole time, they're the reason she doesn't have a father and they're the ones who have been actively fighting against her family and working toward Robb's death. Anyway, no matter which Lannister she married, so long as she attended the royal wedding, she'd still be caught in the assassination by wearing the poisoned hairnet, being spirited away by Dontos and delivered to Baelish. She wouldn't be condemned as Tyrion's accomplice but Littlefinger wouldn't let go of his Cat replacement just because of that one change. 

 

14 hours ago, John Potts said:

I'm slightly surprised that (given how she reacts to Tyrion's appearance) that Sansa DIDN'T choose Lancel instead - she would've been worse off really, s I can't see Lancel standing up to King Joff like Tyrion does.

Isn't the Hound practically Two-Face in the books? Understandable that he's not so scarred in the show (just like Tyrion's nose), but I'm fairly sure Sandor's burns make his face horrific rather than just ugly.

Finding Tyrion unattractive doesn't mean she's shallow enough to think physical beauty is all that matters. She still thinks Loras is dreamy but Cersei and Joffrey have given her a distrust of beautiful Lannisters. While she felt empathy for Lancel when Cersei attacked him, she probably hasn't forgotten that he was the one reading out the treason charges when Joff had her beaten until Tyrion stopped it. It's also possible to personally like someone and still find them unattractive even if you wish you didn't. She remembers multiple times that Tyrion helped her and tries to get past his looks but she just can't force an attraction. I don't think Tywin would have ever allowed a groom change at the last minute, but I guess I'll give Tyrion credit for trying to give Sansa a choice knowing he'd be pissing off Tywin if he tried to back out of the wedding on the day of.

Can't injuries be ugly and horrific? Tyrion's battle scarring is supposed to have made him uglier, and book Sandor's burns include exposed bone. Someone might find Tyrion as ugly as the Hound but probably not more so.

18 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

The only thing book Joffrey has over show Joffrey in terms of cruelty is his treatment of Tommen. I don't recall him mistreating Tommen in the show (maybe he did and I'm just blanking) but book Joffrey was just awful to Tommen and AFFC hints that it might have been even worse than previously thought.  

Tommen 2.0 detailed Joff's bullying of him when Marg snuck into his bedroom in s4. There was a story about Joffrey threatening to kill Ser Pounce and sneak his innards in Tommen's food. There was also the minor bit in s2 where he told Tommen 1.0 to stop crying as they watched Myrcella's boat leave.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Lady S.

[benteen]

As I recall, the Hound's burns were so bad in the book that you could see the bone in at least one spot.

[Avaleigh]

Arya V

Harwin tells Arya about the Battle of the Bells and says that King Robert always gave Ned credit for the victory they won there. The men speculate on where Jaime might be headed, and Arya learns that her grandfather Hoster is either dying or already dead. 

Arya is horrified when she sees northmen being imprisoned in crow cages where they're starved and tortured. She asks what the men did and is told that they committed acts of rape and murder while searching for the Kingslayer. The prisoners call out to her for water.

She looked at their filthy hair and scraggly beards and reddened eyes, at their dry, cracked, bleeding lips. Wolves, she thought again. Like me. Was this her pack? How could they be Robb’s men? She wanted to hit them. She wanted to hurt them. She wanted to cry. They all seemed to be looking at her, the living and the dead alike. The old man had squeezed three fingers out between the bars. “Water,” he said, “water.”

Arya gives the prisoners water in spite of the objections from one of the men of the town, and Anguy decides to end the men's misery by hitting each of them with an arrow. 

They spend the night at an inn called The Peach and Tom is teased by the innkeeper about one of his bastards. Everyone is forced to take a bath including Arya, and they make her put on a dress that makes her feel as though she's one of Sansa's dolls. She eventually realizes that the inn is a brothel and mentions this to Gendry. Gendry doesn't think that Arya knows what a brothel is and when she shows him that she does, he asks her what she's doing there and says that a brothel isn't a place for a highborn lady. One of the women joins their conversation and tells them that she might very well be a daughter of Robert Baratheon. Arya sees that the woman's hair does look like the king's but doesn't think that means anything because lots of people have hair that color including Gendry. The woman flirts with Gendry a bit but he isn't interested, and ends up leaving the table abruptly.

Arya drinks some wine and overhears a little of Lem and Harwin talking to the innkeeper about Catelyn freeing Jaime. Arya still thinks it isn't true and is sure her mother would never do that. 

Later in the evening, a creepy old man starts telling Arya how pretty she is, so Gendry steps in and tells the man that Arya is his sister. For a split second the guy thinks about fighting Gendry but he backs down when he sees how big Gendry is. Before the man creeps away, he asks Gendry what sort of brother takes his little sister to a brothel. Arya asks Gendry why he lied about being her brother and he makes an angry comment about how lowborn he is in comparison to her. Arya tells him that she didn't mean for him to take what she said the wrong way, but he's still upset and tells her to go away. He says that he wants to drink his wine in peace and maybe have sex with the girl they were talking with earlier. Arya stalks away and thinks about what a stupid, bullheaded bastard she thinks Gendry is. 

Arya has a wolf dream where she's hunting with a pack and they run down a horse together. She wakes up to the sound of barking dogs and soon learns that the Mad Huntsman has come back with another prisoner for one of the crow cages. Arya looks at the prisoner and thinks that the gods have answered her prayers. 

[nodorothyparker]

Ugh.  Any time I come across execution via crow cage in books or movies, I just shudder.  I know the point was to make a public example and serve as a deterrent, but it always strikes me as a particularly heinous way to die.

This chapter is interesting to me for its showing of the continued domino effect of the war so far.  The men in the crow cages are Northerners who earned their death sentence raping and murdering and it sounds like wreaking general havoc while hunting Jaime after Catelyn set him free.  The Mad Huntsman is a creation of Lannister troops committing those same atrocities against his family.   The capture of the unnamed Hound in the chapter ender probably has every bit as much to do with the carnage the Mountain has left throughout the Riverlands and being a Lannister bannerman, seeing as how he rates a mention, as it does anything specific to the Hound.  And all this is occurring in the same town quasi known for a battle years before in Robert's Rebellion.

It's a chapter like this one that make me think Maggy the Frog might have been aiming a little low when she prophesied 16 kids for Robert.  He certainly got around and certainly was fertile, despite not managing to ever father or notice that he'd failed to father any legitimate offspring.  I'm mildly amused as I think I'm supposed to be by Gendry being hit on by his likely biological half sister and Arya calling him a bastard and being dismissive of any physical similarity to Robert the girl shares since Gendry also shares that similarity.

It shows how small this world is and how nothing is ever really secret that Catelyn and Brienne going to Jaime's cell in the middle of the night is common brothel gossip.  Love Arya arguing against needing another bath since she just had one not even a whole fortnight ago.

[Lady S.]

It's a good thing Gendry didn't inherit his father's taste for prostitutes, else he and his half-sister would be two Baratheons accidentally pulling a Lannister/Targaryen. (I'm assuming the girl really was one of Bobby's bastards since Arya comparing her hair to Gendry's feels like a pretty obvious ironic hint from GRRM.)

I'm amused by Tansy's description of Jaime's escape from the dungeon, making it sound like Jaime seduced Catelyn and Brienne. I trust that a smutty ot3 fic to that effect exists somewhere in fandom.

Love Arya using the Tully trout fountain to give water to dying prisoners. This chapter and Arya IV show the nuances of the BwB's outlawry. They rob paying travelers and innocent children with IOUs and sometimes sadistic executions happen, but they also work to feed the smallfolk who bear the brunt of the war with little relief from anyone else, they're the only ones opposing shitbags under any banner, and the Mad Huntsman's methods are not condoned by the main leadership. And none of this would be happening if the feudal system wasn't breaking down so much for the common people. We know Robb mistakenly listened to Edmure about releasing the riverlords after Riverrun was saved, so if the knights of Stoney Sept ended up with Robb in the westerlands then they must have expressly chosen to stay with him instead of returning home.

So, the previous chapter had 12yo Sansa groped and threatened with rape by Joffrey then nakedl;y groped by Tyrion, now this one has her 10yo sister getting hit on by a drunk pedo. Yet people act like the show invented all the rapey atmosphere out of whole cloth.  

Edited August 19, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Jon IV

Ghost is gone and Jon hopes that he understood his instructions to return to Castle Black. 

Jon goes over his options and worries that if he abandons Ygritte and returns to the Night's Watch that the Magnar will end up cutting her throat. He thinks about taking her with him but knows that he won't be able to bring her back to Castle Black. He considers what life would be like for the two of them in the Seven Kingdoms and knows that a wildling and a deserter aren't going to be welcome.

Jarl and his men don't seem intimidated by the Wall the way that the Magnar and the others are. Jon thinks about how young Jarl's men are and how they've all done this before. They're divided into teams and Jarl tells them that Mance promises swords to the first person from each team to reach the top. Mance also promises to incorporate the names of these men into a song about their feat.

Jarl and his men use a tree as a short cut and Jon is surprised when he sees that the guys on this team are already about three hundred feet high. The Magnar complains about how long it's taking for them to reach the top and seems concerned about what the members of the Night's Watch will do once they're spotted. Jon thinks about how difficult and scary it was to climb the Skirling Pass and knows that this will be much more treacherous. He finds himself wishing that some men of the Watch would spot Jarl and the other men and make short work of them, but there's no sign of any of the Wall's defenders. 

Six hours into the climb, Jarl and his men hit a patch of bad ice that breaks and they all end up falling to their deaths. One man actually survives the fall but is so broken, he asks to be put out of his misery. One of the Thenns smashes the survivor's head in and Magnar then gives orders for the bodies to be burned. 

Once another of the teams ends up making it to the top, they lower ropes and ladders so that the others can begin making the climb. Jon is dreading the idea of climbing the Wall and Ygritte comments on how much she hates it. She asks Jon if he feels how cold the Wall is and Jon points out that it's made of ice. Ygritte tells him he knows nothing and says that the Wall is made of blood.

Two more men end up falling to their deaths during the climb, but the others manage to make it. By the time Jon reaches the top it's close to midnight. Ygritte has tears in her eyes and tells Jon that she nearly fell two or three times. She says it was as though the Wall was trying to shake her off. Jon tries to comfort her and tells her not to be frightened because the worst is behind them. Ygritte smacks Jon's chest and tells him that she wasn't frightened. Jon asks why she's crying and she insists it's wasn't from fear. 

 “I’m crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!”

[Lady S.]

I don't think it hit me until this re-read that Ygritte's last line is supposed to be a big revelation for Jon because getting confirmation on what Mance was up to in the Frostfangs was the whole basis for Qhorin's mission. Aside from the fact that it would have never occurred to me that the Wall could come down halfway through the saga no matter what the wildlings did or didn't find (I wonder if any original book readers considered this a real possibility), it's not like there were other possibilities suggested for what Macguffin the wildlings could have wanted. There was vague and general talk about how Mance must have been resorting to some magical power, but the Horn was the only specific hypothesis I recall ever being offered. Jon was concerned about only the Horn all along but here is where he actually knows Mance was indeed searching for it and is told it was never found so they don't have to worry about it being used. It's at this point where he's done all he could with his spying and needs to break his cover and escape to Castle Black, and it's just the considerable matter of abandoning his lover still standing in his way. 

Ygritte really, really doesn't seem keyed into the Others if she thinks the Wall exists as a barrier just to her people and actually wants it to be destroyed. That's the biggest difference between book Mance and show Mance. Show Mance claimed he united 100 clans by convincing them that they were all going to die unless they went South, while most of the book wildlings are first shown to be just as blinded to the bigger picture as most of the NWmen by their entrenched wildling vs crow opposition. This short chapter feels like a good place to recommend this tumblr essay about Mance Rayder, which helped answer some questions for me. Excerpted:

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It’s enough work just following the Horn of Joramun as it goes from myth to rumor to still missing to found to flaming to fake, so it’s easy to miss what’s happening here at a character level. The reality, of course, is that Mance never had the Horn of Joramun. He pretends to Jon that he does, yet never to the majority of his followers, as we see in Ygritte’s outburst. Tormund knew Mance had a horn and that it was fake, but he may have been the only one among the wildlings who did.

The big question is this: did Mance ever actually want the Horn of Joramun?

Not only would blowing the Horn bring down the Wall Mance is counting on to defend his people from the Others, it would guarantee that should humanity survive the second apocalypse, the wildlings will be universally reviled. Mance knows that it would therefore doom the Free Folk in the short and long term to use the Horn. But he also knows that the search for the Horn would be the most effective organizing principle possible for a King looking to gather his subjects together. So he does what he does best: he puts on a show, calling everybody to the Frostfangs for an ersatz horn-hunt. Once the search “fails,” he’s got his army together, he’s demonstrated that he believes in and cares about wildling traditions and legends (thus proving his Free Folk bona fides beyond a doubt), and his followers are primed to try less supernatural methods of crossing the Wall.

That’s the first verse of Mance’s song: giving the wildlings a staged version, a performance, of their most irrational and destructive desires. After all, isn’t that one of the reasons we have art? To work through our darkest impulses, achieving in fiction a catharsis that would have devastating consequences if acted out in real life? Indeed, we meet Mance as he finishes singing “The Dornishman’s Wife,” a fantasy about pure recklessness, about being able to abandon fear of death (as represented by the Dornishman’s blade) in order to seize the best in life. But it would be mayhem if everybody behaved that way! That’s the big blind spot of Free Folk ideology, that they don’t see the aggregate problems resulting from thousands of individuals doing whatever they want, whenever they want. (That’s without even getting into how Craster’s freedom means slavery for his daughters.) Mance manages to get them to act together in their collective interest…by lying, by singing a song that they (like the ghost of High Heart) never tire of hearing.

....So then why the pretense of bringing down the Wall? Why bother negotiating with Jon at all [using a fake horn]? Because Mance knows his people cannot survive south of the Wall through conquest alone. At some point, they’re going to have to make a deal with the “kneelers,” and Mance needs something to put on the table. So he uses the Horn of Joramun as a bluff, for the second time. The Horn is both a tangible, physical object (a pointedly underwhelming one, like the true Holy Grail in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade) and an abstract, symbolic vessel containing the wildlings’ craziest hopes and the Watch’s deepest fears. Mance uses the idea of the Horn to manipulate both audiences (and a third audience: us), as a good bard-king does

....Indeed, Mance’s character makes more sense as Bael the Bard than as an institutionalist policy-maker. Mance is the king-as-romantic. When first he entered Mance’s tent, Jon assumed that an obvious warrior like Tormund was a more likely candidate for king than the singer…and given that it’s Tormund who saves the Free Folk by making peace, Jon might’ve been right after all. That’s what Jon’s getting at when asks Mance if he’s a “true king.” Is Mance willing to do the grinding, uncertain, frequently unsatisfying work of making his kingdom a reality?

We still don’t know the answer to that question.

Lastly, I know nothing about mountain climbing but is a bunch of ladders tied together over hundreds of feet any more feasible than the 700ft ice wall itself?

[nodorothyparker]

Climbing spikes made of bone, tools made of antlers, and your reward if you make it to the top is a sword and a mention in a song?  I suppose castle-forged steel would be a big deal to people who don't seem to have much metal working prowess of their own, but that's still not a huge incentive for such a dangerous undertaking and no wonder they lost nearly half of their force on the way up.  I do like the mention that the Thenns are afraid of the Wall, having never seen it before, and as Jon realizes it's pretty much the end of the known world on both sides.  Extremely few of the series' major characters have ever seen the Wall either or have even given it any real thought for all its importance.

As implausible as the whole 700-foot Wall thing is, I do like some of the details we're getting here about it actually being built of huge sometimes uneven blocks of ice upon stone and how it's not just a smooth sheet of ice all the way up.  There's also nice details about how the long neglect of groundskeeping duties has made such a climb possible in the first place.

I know I wasn't thinking all that much in terms of the wildlings actually having the horn either at this point of my initial read.  

[John Potts]

Like the thought of The Wall being "The Ends of the Earth" for both sides - but unlike Mance, both sides have also forgotten its original purpose (keeping out the Others). Hadn't considered that Mance might be using the myth of the Horn of Winter as the equivalent of a rogue nuke - you've got to let us through or I will f your shit up! And you can't deny he is prepared to die for his people

(I know that he was actually replaced by an enchanted Rattleshirt in the books, but I never got the impression he wasn't PREPARED to die).

On ‎20‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 10:12 AM, Lady S. said:

I know nothing about mountain climbing but is a bunch of ladders tied together over hundreds of feet any more feasible than the 700ft ice wall itself?

You couldn't rig a ladder that long - you send a few up first and then relay ropes/ladders up to each successive level and take it one bit at a time. Luckily (for the Wildings), the fewer Watch there are, the less the Wall is repaired so the more uneven the surface is. 

Also, I was thinking that Ygritte isn't entirely wrong in saying the Wall is "Made of Blood" - although we have no direct confirmation, magic was involved in building the Wall (which seems to be true, given how The Others haven't got through it) and magic in TWoIaF is blood magic. Probably lots of people died to build it. On top of the huge numbers of casualties such a major building project probably involved.

Edited August 22, 2016 by John Potts

[Lady S.]

I think it's an accurate take to say the Wall is made of blood, but it feels like Ygritte is only concerned with the blood of her people. To actually think the Wall shouldn't exist a person can really be giving much thought to how/why it was built because enough real thought there would lead to the obvious fact that no one goes to that much trouble just to keep out other humans meaning there's a much more dangerous true threat out there.

[WearyTraveler]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I think it's an accurate take to say the Wall is made of blood, but it feels like Ygritte is only concerned with the blood of her people. To actually think the Wall shouldn't exist a person can really be giving much thought to how/why it was built because enough real thought there would lead to the obvious fact that no one goes to that much trouble just to keep out other humans meaning there's a much more dangerous true threat out there.

Not to get ahead of the book, but in the next Sam chapter (3 chapters away, I think).  Mormont discusses that very thing: the purpose of the Wall and the current perceptions of its job

[benteen]

Wow, I'd forgotten about that with the Horn but it's true.  Bringing down the Wall would guarantee the White Walkers would overrun Westeros.  This is a case where the show makes Mance and the Wildlings seem smarter because they just want to escape the White Walkers and put the Wall between them.

[Avaleigh]

On 8/21/2016 at 4:53 AM, John Potts said:

Also, I was thinking that Ygritte isn't entirely wrong in saying the Wall is "Made of Blood" - although we have no direct confirmation, magic was involved in building the Wall (which seems to be true, given how The Others haven't got through it) and magic in TWoIaF is blood magic. Probably lots of people died to build it. On top of the huge numbers of casualties such a major building project probably involved.

This was the main thing that jumped out at me in this chapter. I agree that Ygritte is right that there's blood in the Wall and that some kind of blood magic has been used in its building in addition to everything else. I'm guessing that Storm's End and Winterfell have something similar going on in terms of blood magic protection. 

I've always found it interesting that Mel's magic grows stronger when she's at the Wall so my guess is that the blood magic has something to do with it. 

I'll have the next Jaime chapter up later today. I'm really enjoying reading it.

[Avaleigh]

Jaime IV

Jaime has an infection from his injury and feels feverish. The pain is the worst he's ever known and he finds himself remembering the prayers that he and Cersei would have to say together at the sept in Casterly Rock. He even cries until the men begin to make fun of him. He thinks that he finally understands now how Tyrion would feel all of the times people would laugh at him. 

Brienne and Jaime are made to ride a horse together and are bound face to face. Jaime's severed hand hangs around his neck and is pressed in between them. At one point Jaime grabs a sword and attempts to fight with his left hand. He hopes that he'll be killed and takes consolation that he'll at least die with a blade in his hand. The Mummers laugh at how pathetic Jaime's attempts are at fighting and he eventually has the sword kicked out of his hands. Vargo Hoat tells him if he tries to pull any shit like that again that he'll either cut off a foot or his other hand. 

Brienne asks Jaime what he's doing and he tells her that he's dying. She urges him to live and asks him if he's a craven.

The word shocked him. He was Jaime Lannister, a knight of the Kingsguard, he was the Kingslayer. No man had ever called him craven. Other things they called him, yes; oathbreaker, liar, murderer. They said he was cruel, treacherous, reckless. But never craven. “What else can I do, but die?” “Live,” she said, “live, and fight, and take revenge.”

Rorge doesn't hear what Brienne is saying but her voice is loud enough that she captures his attention. He kicks her around and tells her to be quiet if she doesn't want to lose her tongue. 

Jaime is still going over Brienne's suggestion that he's a craven and wonders if all he has ever been is a sword hand. He decides that Brienne is right and that he must fight to live. 

The wench had the right of it. He could not die. Cersei was waiting for him. She would have need of him. And Tyrion, his little brother, who loved him for a lie. And his enemies were waiting too; the Young Wolf who had beaten him in the Whispering Wood and killed his men around him, Edmure Tully who had kept him in darkness and chains, these Brave Companions.

The next day Jaime makes it a point to force himself to eat. He tells himself to eat for Cersei, Tyrion, and revenge. He thinks about how Lannisters always pay their debts and decides that he's going to have a golden hand forged once he makes it back to King's Landing. He thinks he'll use his new hand to rip out Vargo's throat. 

When Jaime remembers that their destination is Harrenhal, he laughs out loud and this ends up earning him a lash in the face. Brienne asks Jaime why he laughed and he explains that Harrenhal is where he became a knight of the Kingsguard. He reminisces about Whent's tourney and says that no one could have beaten him that day. He says that Aerys never let him joust and sent him away. He thinks about how he's coming back, laughs again, and is consequently hit with punches and kicks from the Mummers.

Three of the Mummers decide that they're ready to start raping Brienne and Jaime thinks about how they're going to leave Brienne a cripple as well only it will be on the inside where it doesn't show. Jaime advises Brienne to mentally 'go far away' and tells her it'll be over faster if she doesn't fight because they won't enjoy it as much. Brienne insists that they won't get any pleasure from what she'll give them. Jaime thinks that Brienne is going to get herself killed and wonders why he even cares. He thinks that if it weren't for her that he'd still have two hands.

Jaime again advises Brienne about going away inside and thinks about how he had to do that the day he was forced to watch Aerys kill Rickard and Brandon Stark. He tells her to think of Renly and of Tarth and of other things that remind her of home. Rorge interrupts what Jaime is telling Brienne to promise to her that he's going to do a bunch of sick and twisted stuff to her before the night is over. He promises that she'll be extra ugly when all is said and done. 

Jaime saves Brienne by shouting the word sapphires. Rorge kicks him in his wound and Jaime passes out from the pain, but when he's conscious again he hears Vargo telling Rorge that Brienne isn't to be touched. Brienne eventually asks Jaime why he bothered to shout for her benefit and Jaime gives a couple of sarcastic responses before saying that Lannisters pay their debts and admitting that he's thankful to her for saving him from Robin Ryger on the river. Jaime points out it's a good thing for her that he's such a good liar. He says that an honorable man would have told the truth about Sapphire Isle. Brienne thanks him for helping her. 

Vargo makes a show of having Jaime dragged into Harrenhal on foot. Each step feels like agony for Jaime and he takes comfort in the idea that he's still a Lannister and he's still a member of the Kingsguard. He vows to live and pay his debts back with interest. 

Brienne squeezes Jaime's arm and mentions that the Boltons hold Harrenhal. Jaime says that House Bolton like to skin their enemies and thinks about how Tyrion would know all about the Lords of the Dreadfort. Jaime tells himself that he can't die while Cersei lives and thinks that they'll die together just as they were born together. 

When they're just outside of Harrenhal and are at the site of where Lord Whent's tourney was held, Jaime sees that the spot where he knelt before Aerys to take his vows to become a member of the Kingsguard is now a privy trench. He thinks about how Aerys honored him and then spit on him. 

Vargo presents Jaime to Roose Bolton and Jaime recognizes three sons of Walder Frey. He addresses them by name and tells them about what happened to Cleos.

Brienne asks the Freys to hear her out and says that she's sworn to House Stark just like they are. Aenys Frey brings Brienne and Jaime up to speed on how Robb betrayed House Frey and Jaime watches to see how Brienne takes this news. Brienne tells them about how Catelyn wants her to take Jaime to King's Landing and one of the Mummers interjects to mentions that Brienne was actually trying to drown Jaime when they came upon them. Brienne admits that she forgot herself in that moment but says she never would have killed Jaime if it had come down to it. 

Jaime and Brienne learn that Joffrey will be wedding a daughter of Highgarden as opposed to Sansa Stark and Jaime asks if Roose has had any word about Cersei. Roose says that Cersei and Joffrey are well and mentions that Tyrion was wounded in the battle.

Roose gives orders for Jaime to be taken to Qyburn and he orders them to cut Brienne's ropes. Brienne tells Roose that Vargo's men tried to rape her and Roose says that he's displeased by that and by Jaime's hand. Brienne tries to get her sword and armor back but Roose tells her that she won't need them because she is under his protection. 

Qyburn looks at Jaime's wound and thinks that it'll be best if Jaime loses the entire arm. Jaime insists that he's going to keep his arm so Qyburn agrees to only cut away the flesh that's rotten. He tries again to get Jaime to allow him to cut the arm at least to the elbow but Jaime refuses. He also refuses to take milk of the poppy and fears that if he passes out that Qyburn will end up taking his arm anyway. Jaime screams in pain throughout most of the procedure and eventually loses consciousness. When Jamie wakes up, Qyburn is sewing up his arm and Jaime gets confirmation that Qyburn has dealt with many stumps before due to being in service with Vargo Hoat. Jaime asks how a maester would end up riding with men like the Brave Companions and Qyburn admits that the Citadel took his chain. 

Qyburn takes care of the wound over Jaime's eye as well and asks him how he received it. Jaime says that his eye wound came from a woman and tells Qyburn to see to this woman's wounds as well since she appeared to be limping. Qyburn agrees to see to Brienne and asks Jaime what she is to him. Jaime laughs and says that she's his protector. 

Edited August 24, 2016 by Avaleigh
The quote feature went wonktastic.

[WearyTraveler]

8 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Jaime is still going over Brienne's suggestion that he's a craven and wonders if all he has ever been is a sword hand. He decides that Brienne is right and that he must fight to live. 

I think this is the chapter where I started to feel a little compassion for Jaimie.  It was difficult for me because he did push a little, innocent boy out of a window, and in my head, unless the boy is a devil spawn with supernatural powers, hell-bent on your destruction, there's absolutely no reason that would justify such a vile act.  In this chapter, though, Jaimie displays a lot of introspection and self awareness.  We see glimpses of the man he could be, and he even recognizes that Brienne, whom he had seen with so much disdain, is right.  That's a big step for the character thus far.

8 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Jaime again advises Brienne about going away inside and thinks about how he had to do that the day he was forced to watch Aerys kill Rickard and Brandon Stark

Again, a great peek into Jaimie's brain, which shows us he's not some heartless monster. He was rightfully horrified, and I'd dare say even traumatized by Aerys act, although he didn't even know Brandon and Rickard personally, and was at the most indifferent toward the Starks at the time.

8 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

Vargo presents Jaime to Roose Bolton and Jaime recognizes three sons of Walder Frey.

And here's the anvil of Roose's eventual betrayal.  Upon re-read I see anvils everywhere; some I had seen on my first read, but they just kind of made me doubt Rooses's allegiance.  Never did I think his betrayal would be as complete, brutal and devastating as it was. 

Edited August 24, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Lady S.]

How the fuck is Jaime still alive? It sounds like there was at least a week between his behanding and reaching Qyburn's magic touch, which feels about right looking at the distance between Maidenpool (the area where Cleos was killed and the Bloody Mummers found them) and Harrenhal. Of course it's fiction and infection and blood loss could work differently in their world than in ours, but we wouldn't even have to fanwank that if Jaime was maimed close to Harrenhal. GRRM made a choice to draw out Jaime's agony for days over almost an entire chapter, and in that sense it's easy to see the start of the torture porn which would become so pervasive in Feast/Dance, especially with a certain other maiming victim PoV who should have died several times over.

I love Jaime's thought process as he helps Brienne with the sapphire lie, as if he doesn't understand why he should want to save her life and seems surprised by his own surviving better nature. It reminds me of Tyrion helping Cat with the mountain clansmen. His first thought when he heard her scream was something about letting them kill the bitch but then he turned around and ran to help her anyway.

Once again, I feel offended on the poor Floppy Fish Lord's behalf that he and Robb are on Jaime's revenge debt list along with the Bloody Mummers. Robb captured Jaime in fair combat and treated him well in a tower cell despite his own hatred of Jaime and Jaime's defenestration of Bran and attack on Ned and Jory, and Edmure only chained him up in the dungeons because Jaime had tried to escape and killed some guards. Not to mention that at the time of Jaime's battle with Robb, Riverrun was under siege and Edmure was Jaime's prisoner, paying for something Catelyn did. I'd say it's a sign of how arrogant and how unwilling to take responsibility for his own actions Jaime still is at this point that he's lumping together every enemy he came into conflict with on a grudge-kill list and ignoring the ways he started the conflicts with some of them. 

In hindsight, it's a big red flag that the Freys are still with Roose at Harrenhal when the rest of their forces returned to the Twins in protest, especially considering how antsy they already were about Robb's cause in Arya's last Clash chapter even before learning about Robb's marriage. I did wonder at their comments about sending Jaime back to Riverrun or cutting off his head. The easy assumption is that they were just having fun trying to intimidate him, but with people who thought they could get away with a cover story about Robb being a werewolf who killed his own men at the Red Wedding it can't be ruled out that they would genuinely threaten someone who should now be their ally. (And with Dreadfort and the Twins men outnumbering the Bloody Mummers, why oh why, didn't Roose send his own men to hunt Jaime while say sending the Bloody Mummers after the BwB or some other mission away from the route from Riverrun to KL? He managed to dispose of Northern loyalists by sending them into an ambush at Duskendale but gives free rein to people who have just betrayed the Lannisters to join him. I really don't think Jaime being maimed by a crazy foreign mercenary makes more sense than Locke doing it because he hated highborn vanity.) Interesting that Roose's cold eyes remind Jaime of Ned (not unlike Tywin's Lord Face weirdly reminding Arya of Ned's Lord Face), which helps to explain why he didn't explain his kingslaying when Ned found him on the throne, although he really should have told someone in charge about all the wildfire left under the city.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, I wondered too how Jaime was still alive. That wound sounds really nasty and it seems like he really is dying when he tells Brienne that he is. The way that he reflects on how beautiful the night sky is and how the stars are more apparent than usual like he's feeling oddly at peace with things. Brienne senses it and he must've looked like he was on the way out, so I'm guessing she feels that he was spared by the gods for a reason and that's another reason she's starting to soften on him a little. 

I knew Rorge and Shagwell were among the worst but wow, they can't die fast enough for me.

Jaime's resolve to live reminds me of Davos being on the rock and choosing to signal to the ship. 

I can't help but appreciate having Jaime point out that there are times when people can do good things by being dishonest and that the world isn't as black and white as someone like Brienne would have it. 

I also like the moment that Urswyck brings up how Brienne was trying to drown Jaime when she's trying to explain that she's escorting him to King's Landing. She's so embarrassed and it brings to mind Jaime's thought about how for her it was as though they'd been caught having sex. 

Knowing what we know, isn't it funny to read Roose Bolton saying 'Escort Ser Jaime to Qyburn' and know that nothing sinister will come of it? 

Speaking of Qyburn, just the fact that he put in time serving Vargo Hoat should have been a huge red flag for me that this guy was into some bad shit but I don't think I wondered at all at this point about any of his extracurricular activities. I don't remember how it ends up working out that Qyburn gets to go with Jaime to King's Landing. 

[Lady S.]

Seriously, it's a miracle Jaime even had the strength to steal a sword and try to fight to his death. Not only was his stump lacking proper medical. care and hygiene, these scumbags kept attacking his wound every day. I think Qyburn came along later because he still needed medical treatment.

Brienne was lying back at the inn with the outlaws so it's not like she was that rigid about honesty, though it was probably a good point that Jaime could lie for good reasons as well as bad. 

[nodorothyparker]

Doesn't Roose send Qyburn on with Steelshanks Walton (a minor character whose name I love) and the entourage to tend to Jaime on the final journey to Kings Landing?

Despite all the nastiness here, this is one of my favorite chapters and favorite arcs of the entire series.  I love Jaime and Brienne trading off saving each other after that hellacious fight, when under their current circumstances they really don't have much reason to and much bigger problems to each be focused on.  Jaime's thoughts when he's looking at the stars do sound like he's pretty much resigned himself to try to drift away and I get the sense that she senses that enough to shame/will him to fight it and just not let go.  He is in really awful shape here and by now has been banged up by these asshats enough that he had to know there was a fair to good chance he would take another hit for speaking up but still does the braver thing anyway.  Which of course being Jaime he immediately jokes away afterward as how fortunate she is to be in the company of such a liar.  In a few lines, we learn that he's dealt with some of the really awful things he's been witness to by disassociating to the point of going away in his mind and becomes one of the very few male characters in this entire series to demonstrate any conscious thought about the effects of sexual violence in his saying how they'll leave Brienne a cripple too inside.

I've read enough history to know people used to survive amputations and some really horrible wounds under pretty horrible circumstances, but I guess I've always thought about it very dry clinical terms.  This is really awful and he is in awful shape.

I do remember on my initial read wondering how the Freys were still with Roose when Robb couldn't get them to stay.  I don't remember now for certain, but I think that I probably assumed they hadn't heard about Robb marrying Jeyne yet, but Roose does show here that he's up on all the news so that seems unlikely.  It is darkly amusing that Roose, the same man who likes his leeches and comes from a house famous for flaying the flesh off people to the point of having it on their sigil, is clearly disgusted by Vargo Hoat.

Edited August 24, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

I assume Roose's disgust for Vargo is similar to his feelings about Ramsay in that he doesn't disapprove of their cruelty, just the blunt and vulgar ways they choose to wield it. He would probably say the Bloody Mummers could use a good leeching to rid themselves of bad blood and be more cold-blooded like him.

I liked the little Jaime/Brienne moments with her giving his arm a reassuring squeeze as they walked into Harrenhal and him turning to look back at her as he was led away to Qyburn.

[Avaleigh]

I liked those moments between Brienne and Jaime too.

Oh and how about the fact that the spot where Jaime once knelt before Aerys is now a privy trench? I thought it was a perfect little detail. 

[nodorothyparker]

Very likely.  Roose is every bit as capable of the awful as Vargo or Ramsay but he's much more finessed and less openly crude about it.  If he hadn't been so good at maintaining outward respectability and trustworthiness, he probably wouldn't have ever been in the positions to do as much damage to Robb and his campaign as he does.

I like those little moments as well.  They establish the growing intimacy and trust between these two after coming through all the terrible they've survived.  I did appreciate that Jaime was able to appreciate the full circle metaphor of the privy trench.

[Avaleigh]

Tyrion IV

Tyrion is in a bad mood and has been tasked with rebuilding the city. He doesn't seem to know where he's going to get the money for everything and thinks about how Littlefinger has essentially left him with a mess to clean up. Tywin has to rely on Tyrion more than he usually would because Kevan is grieving for his son Willem in addition to being worried for Martyn and Lancel. Tyrion is happy that Tywin is relying on him more but is still bitter about how his father won't name him heir to Casterly Rock. Tyrion is also embarrassed that everyone seems to know that his marriage to Sansa hasn't been consummated. 

Tyrion thinks about how miserable Sansa is and wishes that he could comfort her. He acknowledges that he desires her sexually and wishes that she would come to him willingly. He thinks about Shae and about how she'd already heard that he was going to marry Sansa prior to him telling her. Shae doesn't seem to mind about the marriage and Tyrion seems disappointed that Shae isn't behaving as though she's jealous. 

Tyrion meets with Symon Silver Tongue and offers him a bribe to head for the Free Cities. Symon responds by threatening to tell Cersei or Tywin about Shae and tells Tyrion that he wants to be one of the seven singers to perform at Joffrey's wedding. Symon doesn't care that seven singers have already been chosen and suggests that one of them might have some sort of 'mishap' so that he can take the person's place. Symon threatens Tyrion again and Tyrion agrees that Bronn will call upon Symon soon. Tyrion later instructs Bronn to make sure that Symon's body is never found. Bronn indicates that Symon's body is going to end up in a stew to be sold to the people of Flea Bottom. 

Tyrion is summoned to the Tower of the Hand and Tywin shows off the new Valyrian steel sword that he got for Joffrey as a wedding gift. 

Quote

 

Valyrian steel blades were scarce and costly, yet thousands remained in the world, perhaps two hundred in the Seven Kingdoms alone. It had always irked his father that none belonged to House Lannister. The old Kings of the Rock had owned such a weapon, but the greatsword Brightroar had been lost when the second King Tommen carried it back to Valyria on his fool’s quest. He had never returned; nor had Uncle Gery, the youngest and most reckless of his father’s brothers, who had gone seeking after the lost sword some eight years past.

On at least three separate occasions Tywin tried to buy a Valyrian sword from some family that was hard up, but his offers were always rejected. Tyrion comments on the strangeness of the colors in the blade, and the armorer mentions that he tried multiple times to brighten the red and says that Valyrian steel has a way of remembering and doesn't change easily.

The armorer shows Tyrion a second, larger Valyrian sword and Tyrion learns that this one will go to Jaime. Tyrion brings up the fact that his father isn't gifting him with a weapon of any kind and Tywin replies that if Tyrion has need of dagger he may take one from the armory. 

Tyrion and Tywin have a discussion about how in debt the crown is and how they owe money all over King's Landing. Tyrion mentions the extravagance of the wedding and Tywin thinks that now is the time to demonstrate the wealth and might of Casterly Rock. Tyrion suggests compromising with seven courses and fewer guests, but Tywin doesn't want the Tyrells thinking that they're cheap. Tywin tells Tyrion to find the money or he'll find a Master of Coin who can. 

Tywin lectures Tyrion about how he hasn't consummated his marriage and Tyrion changes the subject by asking about Cersei's marriage to Willas Tyrell. Tywin says that Mace Tyrell was fine with the idea of the marriage until he talked about it over with his mother. Tywin says that Olenna told Mace that Cersei is too old to marry Willas and tells Tyrion that they'd all do better to pretend as though the marriage offer was never made. Tyrion suspects that the Tyrells are going to regret rejecting Tywin's offer of Cersei. 

Pycelle comes in with word from the Wall that Jeor Mormont and his party have likely been killed. Tywin realizes that they're going to need a new Lord Commander and thinks that Janos Slynt will be just the right guy for the job. Tyrion speaks against Janos and suggests either the commander of the Shadow Tower or Eastwatch-by-the-sea, but Tywin makes it clear that neither man would work because one is a Mallister and one is ironborn. 

Tywin commands Pycelle to write to the Wall that they can't spare any men presently but should be able to once Joffrey's throne is secure. He says that once the crown has confidence in the leadership of the Night's Watch that they'll then be able to see about sending up some men. He asks that the letter close with Joffrey sending his fondest regards to Janos Slynt. 

Tyrion thinks about how he should have had both Slynt and Pycelle killed back when he had the chance. He thinks about how he didn't make the same mistake with Symon Silver Tongue and wishes that he could tell his father how quickly he's learning his lessons these days. 

Edited August 29, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

Is Soylent Silvertongue the first instance of cannibalism in these books? That's something else which will greatly increase in Feast/Dance. The Symon episode is probably the best example of Tyrion being an enjoyably morally ambiguous anti-hero. On paper, ordering someone murdered by a killer who suggests disposing of his body by making it into stew-meat sounds horrible, but reading the whole thing in context makes it hard not to want Symon dead or care what else happens to him. (Mostly, I feel bad for the Flea Bottomers unwittingly eating singer stew, but if this is a common method of corpse disposal then even that doesn't seem like a big deal.) I mean, it seems like a lot of blackmailers fail to consider whether a person desperate to conceal a secret might be willing to kill to do so, but Symon actually suggested Tyrion kill someone else to create a job opening for the royal wedding. So, not only did he think Tyrion could be extorted for any reward he asked, no matter how inconvenient, he thought Tyrion could get rid of a completely innocent third party but would shy away from doing so to the guy blackmailing him. Symon is just selfish, greedy, and a dumb blackmailer, to the point that he can't resist threatening Tyrion one last time after Tyrion pretends to be giving in to his demands, even though there would be no gain for Symon in exposing Tyrion in a bar and he might have suffered for it along with Tyrion. Being a private informant is risky enough, but publicly starting gossip about the Lannisters sounds like a good way to get on Tywin's shitlist, another danger Symon is stupidly oblivious to. All in all, it feels like this guy was just asking to get murdered and really left Tyrion little choice about how to deal with him. (But then I also think Tyrion should have just killed Janos Slynt and Allar Deem together. Disagree with his regrets about sparing Pycelle, though. That geezer was slimy and annoying but relatively harmless on his own. He only became a real problem at Tyrion's trial, which Tyrion couldn't have foreseen. The enemy he really should have done more about was the one he knew had already framed him for murder once.)

[Jazzy24]

Tywin is gross in many ways throughout the series but this is one of the times where he stands out at his most. 

Hes so tacky defacing the Stark sword Ice. He has such an important view of the Lannisters, it's ridiculous. I never understood people's argument that Tywin is good for the realm, everything he's done has been for his house, he likes the titles and power and people looking in awe of him, that's it, the monster has never been good for the realm.  

[nodorothyparker]

Tyrion is told in the last book after the Kings Landing riot that the starving crowd roasted a baker and is left to fill in the rest for himself.  He's as generally indifferent to it as he is to Silvertongue's eventual fate or to the riverfront people whose homes and businesses were torched on his orders before the battle and are now crawling back with seemingly nowhere else to go.  It's all just one more annoyance for him to deal with, like the people in the market who can't afford the inflated food prices or the kids climbing on the catapults.  But yeah, Silvertongue is coming off really stupid here.  If part of your master plan involves suggesting murdering someone for a relatively innocuous reason, how do you not see at all that that the person you're suggesting it to may decide that if they're committing murder anyway, it might as well be you for causing the actual problem in the first place?

Getting shades of endlessly self-pitying DWD Tyrion here with his internal moping that Shae won't at least pretend to be brokenhearted at his marrying or that everyone is seemingly laughing at him for his hostage child bride still having the audacity to not have fallen in love with him or at least wanted him.

Tywin seems to be getting ahead of himself a bit repurposing Ice when the Starks haven't been officially defeated yet and Stark heirs remain until you realize that all the ravens have already flown arranging the Red Wedding and that he's actually making kind of a big statement here that there won't ever be a peace with them.  Of course, Tyrion is too busy seeing it as yet another slight against him to consider that.  Which, yeah, it definitely is but there's also a certain logic to it from Tywin's point of view beyond his tiresome pettiness toward Tyrion.  Jaime is the swordsman and in Tywin's mind still the heir and Joffrey is king.  From a purely prestige point of finally having Valyrian steel in the family, it makes sense to make them proper swords rather than shortchanging them for a ceremonial dagger for the least favored child.

In the continuing how the hell is the crown so in debt mystery, we get confirmation that Littlefinger borrowed heavily from everyone and everywhere to keep the ship of state afloat but still get no specifics on how it got that way.  Interesting that Tywin isn't willing to forgo the rather substantial debt to him now that he's achieved his goal of having the throne firmly in his family's clutches.

[benteen]

Another really good chapter with interesting stuff.

Quote

On at least three separate occasions Tywin tried to buy a Valyrian sword from some family that was hard up, but his offers were always rejected. Tyrion comments on the strangeness of the colors in the blade, and the armorer mentions that he tried multiple times to brighten the red and says that Valyrian steel has a way of remembering and doesn't change easily.

I would think one of these families was House Mormont.  As desperate as things got for Jorah, selling Longclaw was never an option, as proven when he left the sword behind before going into exile.  That seemed to be the one thing he wouldn't do, going so far as to sell men into slavery for money.  I also imagine if wouldn't look good for any House to sell their family's sword for money.

Tyrion has a creepy internal thought in this chapter from what I remember when he thinks about Sansa and declares "Woman or child, he wanted her."

The show wants Tyrion to be a saint so what he did to Symon was never going to be shown or even hinted at in the books.  Although Symon is another one of those characters too stupid to live.

Interesting at how over the top Tywin wanted to be at the wedding when it came to cost.  Image is everything with him.

Quote

Tyrion thinks about how he should have had both Slynt and Pycelle killed back when he had the chance. He thinks about how he didn't make the same mistake with Symon Silver Tongue and wishes that he could tell his father how quickly he's learning his lessons these days. 

Even with how much he hates his father, Tyrion still wants to impress him and show him he's worthy.  The Lannister family dynamics are seriously messed up but never not fascinating.

[Constantinople]

16 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

On at least three separate occasions Tywin tried to buy a Valyrian sword from some family that was hard up, but his offers were always rejected.

I vaguely recall there was a line to the effect that the impoverished nobles would have been happy to fork over a daughter but a Valyrian steel sword was too precious to give up.

Tell me again why we care if these people get wiped out by White Walkers?

[Lady S.]

Did anyone else wonder why Tyrion thought Sansa must have told her handmaids about their non-sex life? It's not like they'd have much privacy in any case with all those servants. The lack of sexual activity should have been evident from their sheets. 

GRRM has answered questions about Sansa's marital status more than once and said only Tyrion or Sansa could arrange an annulment or report the non-consummation. So it's not like someone could snitch to the High Septon and he'd automatically call off the marriage, even aside from the current High Septon being a "trained seal" who owes his job to Tyrion. Sansa's in no position to arrange an annulment herself and it's not like Tywin is anticipating a time when Sansa wouldn't be in their power or when the High Septon would no longer be friendly to the Lannister regime. He's pretty clearly planning on Lannister supremacy from here on out, so he's basically just being a controlling dick about consummating this marriage simply because he's a control freak way overly invested in Tyrion's sex life.

Shae must feel pretty secure in Tyrion's neediness. Even without taking romantic interest into account, he is her employer whom she's built her life around. Under other circumstances a woman might worry about her patron losing interest or having to change his bachelor lifestyle to pay attention to the woman meant to have his children. Shae takes it for granted that Tyrion will come back to her no matter what happens. She's right about him not finding any satisfaction in his marriage to an enemy hostage and about his attachment to her, but she's already shown herself to be unrealistic about their relationship in other ways and there are good reasons not to depend on being the hidden mistress of Tywin Lannister's hated son.

Sansa definitely has the mind of a 12yo in her PoV, but even without being a giantess like Sophie, I tend to assume she was one of those girls who looked at least 15/16 almost as soon as they entered puberty (the girls I was so jealous of as a late bloomer myself). If she has a woman's body, I don't think it's disturbing in itself for men to be attracted to her. What matters is what they do with it. Tyrion does not want to act on it, told Sansa on their wedding night that he was scared by his desire, and doesn't seem happy to realize here how much he wants her despite thinking of her as a child. What matters is that he still thinks of her as a child and that's one of the reasons he hasn't forced himself on her, which is less creepy imo than Sandor commenting on her body even before she got her period or Theon wishing she were back at Winterfell so he could make her his wife. (Also, you may have noticed that Uncle Kevan must have a much younger wife to have a 3yo daughter in the appendix. According to the World Book, Dorna was herself a child hostage bride, given up by Ser Harys because he was in debt to the Lannisters. Though this was years and years before Lancel was born, which suggests that Kevan may have held off on consummation as well.)

Edited August 29, 2016 by Lady S.

[nodorothyparker]

I assumed Tyrion was just grasping for straws when he thought that.  Excepting the one case of telling the Tyrell women the truth about Joffrey and telling Dontos about her hopes of being spirited away to Highgarden, Sansa has been so burned by the Lannisters that she's pretty much shut down on talking to anyone.  The servants who change her sheets and keep track of her bed clothes are much more likely to have an idea of what's going on and also more likely to be on Cersei's payroll reporting it.

Sansa is described in the chapter about the making of her new dress as having developed enough to be near bursting out of her clothes and drawing those sorts of looks.  Older men have been at least borderline inappropriate with her since before Ned's head barely stopped rolling.  Under their current circumstances, Tyrion is her legal husband in a system that allows for marriage to very young girls facing both pressure from his father and public ridicule.  While I most certainly don't think he deserves a trophy for not pressing his legal rights by forcing himself on her, I can't completely condemn him as the most horrible human being to ever live for idly desiring her.  Because he's clear that she is in fact still a child and not acting on it.

I've never gotten the sense that Tywin or really anyone is truly all that worried about the marriage being set aside.  At this point in the story, the Lannisters are winning the war and presumably going nowhere.  Nor is Sansa.  The Red Wedding is about to happen, and the High Septon is safely in the Lannisters' pocket.  There's really no discernible reason for it other than Tywin wanting to clamp down on any defiance on Tyrion's part.  This is his master plan to get control of Winterfell and the North as well and he expects Tyrion to follow orders and do his duty as a cog in the Lannister machine but Tyrion's not cooperating.

[Lady S.]

On 8/29/2016 at 6:55 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Tywin seems to be getting ahead of himself a bit repurposing Ice when the Starks haven't been officially defeated yet and Stark heirs remain until you realize that all the ravens have already flown arranging the Red Wedding and that he's actually making kind of a big statement here that there won't ever be a peace with them.  

Also of note is that Tyrion still thinks Jaime is in Robb's custody while Tywin is obviously expecting his return soon. That's another thing about the Red Wedding planning that Tywin's holding back. I'm guessing Roose informed him of Jaime's escape as soon as he got Edmure's letter, which would mean there was never really much question of what Roose would do with Jaime. Where I think Tywin is getting ahead of himself is thinking Jaime is ready to take his place as heir now. The loss of his swordhand at least gives an excuse for Jaime to leave the Kingsguard but Tywin doesn't know about that yet, and if Jaime were still able-bodied why should he feel any differently about Casterly Rock than he has for the past 18 years.

[nodorothyparker]

I never really got any sense that Roose seriously thought about doing anything with Jaime other than send him on back to Kings Landing despite how much he seems to enjoy fucking with him during the upcoming dinner at Harrenhal by talking about all the different possibilities.   As he says, he's aware that the betrothal pact between Robb and the Freys has been broken and he's about to head to the Twins for the substitute wedding, so I think it's a fair bet to assume that Roose and Tywin have already exchanged all the necessary letters and are both clear about what's about to happen.

If Tywin actually gave a damn about what any of his children actually think or even acknowledged the possibility that they aren't eventually going to knuckle under to his will, then yes, he's getting ahead of himself on the Jaime front.  But despite the vows to serve for life he's always treated the Kingsguard stint as a temporary thing that will sooner or later blow over, like a teenage tantrum.  Everything at this point seems to be going his way with only a few minor hiccups that will surely resolve soon.  So what reason would he have to change course on his thinking now to acknowledge Jaime as an adult with a will of his own, even before he learns that Jaime will have the ready made excuse of his crippling to finally leave the guard?  

[Avaleigh]

Samwell II

Sam and the other survivors are at Craster's Keep and Craster is only allowing them to have the bare minimum when it comes to food. Gilly is in the loft giving birth, and Craster threatens to beat her if she doesn't stop shrieking from the pain. Sam thinks back to how Gilly told Jon that Craster gives his sons over to the gods and prays that she gives birth to a daughter. 

Sam goes outside and eventually meets up with Grenn. He explains to Grenn that having the nickname of Slayer is just another way for the men to call him a coward but Grenn argues that Slayer is a better nickname than Ser Piggy. Sam just wants to be known by his name and insists that it was the dragonglass that killed the Other. Most of the men seem to not believe Sam's story, but Dywen and Edd listen and make sure that Sam and Grenn tell Mormont everything that happened. Mormont asks Sam for all of the dragonglass that he has in his pack, and Sam feels like he wants to cry when he thinks back to all of the dragonglass that Jon found back at the Fist. Sam wonders if dragonglass will work on wights the way that it does on the Others. 

Sam thinks about Jon and how he wishes he could talk to him. He thinks that Jon would never call him Slayer and wonders if Jon is still alive. 

Mormont says that Craster has made it plain that they need to be on their way and starts talking with Sam about the dragonglass. He thinks that every man in the Watch needs to be armed with it and tells Sam that the Night's Watch has forgotten its true purpose.

You don’t build a wall seven hundred feet high to keep savages in skins from stealing women. The Wall was made to guard the realms of men... and not against other men, which is all the wildlings are when you come right down to it. Too many years, Tarly, too many hundreds and thousands of years. We lost sight of the true enemy. And now he’s here, but we don’t know how to fight him.

Mormont wants to know where they're going to get a large supply of obsidian and Sam says that the children of the forest would know where to find it. Mormont says that the children of the forest are all dead. 

Craster announces that he has a son and again tells Mormont that it's past time he and his men left. Craster complains about having yet another mouth to feed with his newborn son, so Sam speaks up and suggests that the Night's Watch take the boy. Craster seems outraged that Sam would put the idea out there and Mormont tells Sam to be quiet and go back inside of the hall. Mormont tells Sam that the baby would be dead before they even reached the Wall since they can barely feed themselves. He asks Sam if he planned on bringing the baby's mother along too, and Sam admits that the mother wants to go as well. Mormont reminds Sam that he was told to stay away from Craster's wives and Sam replies that Gilly is Craster's daughter. 

Bannen dies from his wounds and when they burn his body, Sam is horrified when his mouth begins to water from the smell. It makes him vomit and Edd jokes with Sam a bit about how he might have succumbed to the temptation to carve a slice off of Bannen if they'd happened to have some applesauce. 

The men are to leave at dawn the next morning and Craster decides that he's going to send the men off with his idea of a feast. Trouble starts when the women only bring out two loaves of bread for the forty plus men. Mormont tells the men to take what they're given and to be thankful for it, but Clubfoot Karl refuses to back down and tells Mormont that he'd much rather eat what Craster has hidden away in his larder. Craster tells them that he has to worry about feeding his women and Dirk takes this to mean that Craster does indeed have a secret larder. 

Craster claims that he's a godly man and Karl responds by telling him that he's a cheap liar. Mormont commands Karl not to say another word and Sam thinks that Karl looks like he's finally going to back down, but Craster stands up with his axe in his hand and says that Karl isn't allowed to sleep or eat beneath his roof. Craster orders a bunch of men to get out and tells them that they can all go to sleep hungry. One of the men calls Craster a bastard, Craster charges at one of them, and Dirk ends up being the one to cut Craster's throat. 

Craster's wives start screaming and Mormont starts raging about how the gods are going to curse them because they've broken the laws of hospitality. Dirk threatens to kill one of Craster's wives if she doesn't tell him where the food is and Mormont steps in and tells him to unhand her. Mormont tells Dirk that he'll have his head for this and another man steps in at this point and stabs Mormont in the belly. The scene becomes completely chaotic after this and Sam eventually finds himself sitting on the ground with Mormont's head in his lap. 

Mormont urges Sam to make for the Wall and says that he has to tell the others everything that's happened. He also tells Sam that his dying wish is that his son Jorah take the black. He tells Sam, "Tell Jorah. Forgive him. My son."

Three of Craster's wives talk to Sam and urge him to leave while still can since the brothers with murder on their mind are busy either raping one of the women or gorging on the hidden food. Gilly reminds Sam that he said he'd help her and Sam protests that he said that Jon was the one who would be able to help her. The women tell Sam to take Mormont's sword, cloak, and horse and tell him to take Gilly someplace warm. Gilly cries and pleads with Sam and tells him that she'll be his wife. She explains that she wants to come with him to protect her son and says that her baby will be taken away if she doesn't leave. Sam wants to know who she thinks is going to take the baby away.

“The boy’s brothers,” said the old woman on the left. “Craster’s sons. The white cold’s rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don’t lie. They’ll be here soon, the sons.”

[Lady S.]

I really liked Sam and Grenn's talk about nicknames and bravery, two major running themes in the series.

I love how Sam doesn't even acknowledge that it was he who said they should take Gilly with them, just thinking someone squeaked the suggestion.

Gotta admit there is some hypocrisy in saying Craster can do whatever he wants because there are no laws beyond the Wall but the laws of hospitality are still binding in his home. Pretty sure the cold gods Craster worshipped wouldn't care for such human concerns. Dirk and Clubfoot Karl are of course vile though, if not as OTT evil as their amalgamated show counterpart. Both were part of Chett's original mutiny conspiracy, along with Ollo Lophand, so maybe things would have gone differently if they'd been caught and made examples of back on the Fist, but I don't think what Jon overheard in Clash was conclusive evidence against them. And it's even possible that hunger and wight-related PTSD would have led to some catastrophe anyway.

ETA: I also liked the bit of backstory with Ulmer bragging about his exploits in the Kingswood Brotherhood, stealing jewels and a kiss from Princess Elia. Not that it would ever come up, but I wonder if Jaime remembers this guy and could fact check his boasts.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Lady S.

[nodorothyparker]

Gods, Craster's Keep just sounds heinously filthy and vile and Gilly being yelled at to birth quietly in that mess or take a beating mid labor just gives me a whole body shudder.  The previous chapters have certainly set the scene for how nasty it all is and I know historically that common people did live sort of like this throughout most of recorded history (hopefully minus all the incest), but this one just dials it up to 11 before we even get to the talk of cannibalism or all the killing and raping.   One of the women at the end urging Sam to take Gilly and the baby and go says she's Gilly mother, which of course leaves me wondering just how long Craster has had this particular setup and whether Gilly's mother is also her older sister, which approaches Targaryen levels of incest and inbreeding when you start contemplating that Gilly's son is also her brother and I should probably stop now.

More mention of guest right in the run up to the Red Wedding and how it can be violated from both sides.  It's interesting to me too how they can say that the usual laws don't really apply to a place like Craster's beyond the Wall but apparently this is the one they still think should be universal.  I've generally liked Mormont for being pretty practical and no nonsense so it's a little surprising to me how badly he misread the entire room in those final moments before everything went full on mutiny.  I also wonder how he thinks Sam would ever be in the position to run into Jorah, let alone convince him to take the black when as a Northerner he already would have been fully aware of it as a option and chose instead to nope on out of there.  I know they knew in Kings Landing that Jorah was far across the Narrow Sea with Dany, but I can't remember if we ever got any indication that Mormont had any idea.

I thought it was funny too that Sam wouldn't just come out and say he was offering to take Gilly and her baby.  I kind of love how he basically made these promises to her that Jon would do it and now that he's stuck doing it himself he's suddenly aware of the responsibility he was so blithely committing Jon to and not so sure about it. 

We get it, George.  Sam is still clumsy and a natural coward.  Still laying it on rather thick.

Edited September 3, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[WearyTraveler]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Gods, Craster's Keep just sounds heinously filthy and vile and Gilly being yelled at to birth quietly in that mess or take a beating mid labor just gives me a whole body shudder.  The previous chapters have certainly set the scene for how nasty it all is and I know historically that common people did live sort of like this throughout most of recorded history (hopefully minus all the incest), but this one just dials it up to 11 before we even get to the talk of cannibalism or all the killing and raping.   One of the women at the end urging Sam to take Gilly and the baby and go says she's Gilly mother, which of course leaves me wondering just how long Craster has had this particular setup and whether Gilly's mother is also her older sister, which approaches Targaryen levels of incest and inbreeding when you start contemplating that Gilly's son is also her brother and I should probably stop now.

Yes, it sounds like an awful, awful place.  It's horrifying and dismal, and sad, because you just know that these women don't know that there's something different out there in the world.  The question you raised about how long Craster has been doing this is interesting.  Not only because of the levels of interbreeding and the genetic mess that it is, but also because of the boys that Craster has been sacrificing to his gods (i.e. The White Walkers).   We are told that the WW had not been seen for centuries, so when exactly did they wake up, come back, regenerate or whatever it was that caused their return?

The women say that Craster gives the boys to the gods.  Let's say Gilly is 15/16 years old (same age as Jon/Sam), what happened to the boys born at that time (Gilly's brothers)?  Were they given to the "gods"?  If so, that means the WW have been back for at least that long.  So, Rhaegar's fears about the Long Night were on the money, even if they weren't based on cold, hard facts.  More importantly, is Craster unknowingly responsible for the Walker's resurgence?  What if after Azor Ahai defeated the Other one who must not be named only one Walker was left standing (I hesitate to say alive)?  What if this lone Walker had been searching for the way to create others like him and what if the only way was to use new born babies?

This Walker-wight business doesn't seem to be such a straight up, repeatable process.  The book's story on the Night King has him as the 13th Lord Commander who loved a woman that seemed to be a WW (white, cold skin, blue eyes, no black hands).  If so, that is the only female WW we have in the books.  Could it be she was the only one left? Or was she a WW experiment gone sideways? What about the wights? We know that 99% of the time, the Walkers can turn any living thing who die into wights, but how come we have Coldhands?

Edited September 3, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[nodorothyparker]

That's a really good point and one I've idly wondered about but I haven't given it nearly as much thought.  We don't know how old Craster is except being told that he's an old man, which in these books could really mean anything.  He has 19 wives and I think we're supposed to assume Gilly is one of the younger ones.  This implies at least a full generation of inbreeding, maybe multiple generations of it, and giving the inbred sons to the "gods."  Excellent question as to what is the effect of that on the resurgence White Walkers, which judging by how everyone reacts and everything we're told, is a pretty recent thing after several millennia?

I never know how seriously we're supposed to take some of the origin stories.  So much in these books feels like a game of telephone. 

Edited September 3, 2016 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

One of the women at the end urging Sam to take Gilly and the baby and go says she's Gilly mother, which of course leaves me wondering just how long Craster has had this particular setup and whether Gilly's mother is also her older sister, which approaches Targaryen levels of incest and inbreeding when you start contemplating that Gilly's son is also her brother and I should probably stop now.

Yeah, I assume Gilly is both daughter and granddaughter to Craster, maybe even great-granddaughter too depending on how old he is and when all this incest started. All of which is actually worse than the Targs who preferred their own family but married outside of it pretty regularly. The Targs also didn't have any parent-child or grandparent-grandchild unions, though Daemon/Rhaenyra's uncle-niece union sounded pretty skeevy.

ETA: Yes, there are also a lot of chicken and egg questions about Craster's sacrifices to the WWs and when exactly they returned. This ties into something else I've wondered about, how the wildlings ended up on the wrong side of the Wall in the first place. Ygritte made it sound like they never wanted to be stuck in the far North, but you can't accidentally miss a gigantic wall going up and just mistakenly fail to get out of its way. I hold to the theory that if humans were forcibly settled on the north side of the Wall, then they were being punished for dealing with the WWs the way Craster did. If the first Long Night lasted for many years, it makes sense that people would be desperate enough to sacrifice newborns they couldn't care for to protect the rest of their family from the WWs. Of course this would mean that the NW/other early northern authorities lost sight of their true purpose from the start by putting any humans on the same side as the sleeping enemy, where they and their descendents would be in a position to collaborate again if the WWs made a comeback or at the very least would be the first corpses in any new wight army. But I think this darker explanation fits with the patterns of human behavior displayed in the series. By the time of our story I think all of this history was muddled and largely forgotten so Craster probably didn't mean to start anything with the WWs and originally did just mean to expose his infant sons to the elements. Whether the first son he did this with was the first to be turned into an Other, whether the WW who started taking his sons was the last remaining or just one of a few, and whether his abandonment of his sons triggered the awakening of the WWs are all likely mysteries which will forever remain unclear.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Aww, I got kind of emotional for Jeor's death. I love that his last thoughts are of Jorah. He is saying that he forgives him, right? I wasn't sure if he was saying that he forgives him or if he was saying that the Night's Watch would forgive him. Either way, I'm hoping that Jorah somehow ends up making it to the Wall one day as unlikely as that possibility is especially on the show. At least show Tyrion got to tell Jorah that his father is dead but only Sam knows about Jeor's final words. (Or maybe Sam also tells Jon. I can't recall.)

I like Sam thinking about how he misses Jon and that while he likes Grenn very much, there are some things that he can't talk to Grenn about because they basically go over Grenn's head. Sam knows that Jon would instinctively understand why he'd be uncomfortable with the nickname slayer. 

The men at the Wall with their nicknames remind me of the nicknames goodfellas and wise guys end up getting. 

It seems like Karl and Dirk were going to back down until Craster decided that he was going to take them on. The idea of two loaves of bread being adequate for forty something men is too ridiculous and since these are armed men, it's crazy that Craster didn't attempt to do a better job at placating them since Mormont made it clear that they were going to leave.

Sam's observation that all of the women at Craster's look alike is a reminder of how creepy it must be to be there.

The show really wasn't OTT when it came to the Craster's Keep stuff IMO. The women start being raped right away here in the book. The situation is totally awful and a lot of these guys are total slime balls, so to me it made sense to portray them as such.  

Quote

This Walker-wight business doesn't seem to be such a straight up, repeatable process.  The book's story on the Night King has him as the 13th Lord Commander who loved a woman that seemed to be a WW (white, cold skin, blue eyes, no black hands).  If so, that is the only female WW we have in the books.  Could it be she was the only one left? Or was she a WW experiment gone sideways? What about the wights? We know that 99% of the time, the Walkers can turn any living thing who die into wights, but how come we have Coldhands?

I've long wondered if we're going to get a mention of this female White Walker on the show and am assuming that it isn't going to come up. 

I wonder if Coldhands is in a situation that's kind of like where Dumbledore was severely wounded and Snape just bought him time so that he could get a few things squared away. Maybe the children of the forest were able to partially heal Coldhands. 

[Lady S.]

I was touched by the Old Bear's death and his thoughts of Jorah too. Of course Sam was in no position to deliver any message, but one can't expect a dying man to be thinking that clearly. It's especially touching that among actual practical concerns about the NW and the Long Night 2.0 he can't help bringing up his only child as his time is running out. I think there's a good chance Jorah and Sam could meet on the show if he goes to the maesters for greyscale help but Sam wouldn't have any message to give him as that part wasn't in the show.

I thought the s4 Craster's Keep scenes got a bit tasteless with Karl screaming about raping them to death and the shot of porno boobs jiggling while one of the women was being raped, but I agree that it was odd to have people saying this was all purely a show invention. Being a ruthless bitch when it comes to these supporting cast scumbags, I was glad to know that one of the Sisterton guys fell and broke his neck trying to rape someone.

[benteen]

The mutineers are scum although I can't blame them for what they did to Craster.  Craster was scum who got what he deserved.

Interesting point about wondering if Craster's sacrifices have made the WW stronger.  I like that the show picked up that storyline.

I wonder if Sam will ever be able to give Jorah his father's dying message.  They are so far apart and things often don't go as planned or expected in the books.  The show left out Jeor telling Sam about his dying wish, despite the fact that Sam was at Craster's Keep just like in the book.  There seems to be even less of a chance on the show that Sam and Jorah will ever cross paths.

[John Potts]

I assumed Craster is at least father, and possibly also grandfather, to Gilly. I was wondering if it might be a generational thing in his family, but that would be hard unless the White Walkers allow him to keep the occasional son. Sadly, such an arrangement happens IRL (usually not multi generational, fortunately) often enough to make it entirely possible in the lawless lands beyond the wall. I also assumed this is the way the only way the WW reproduce (lacking the ability to do so on their own), though how many men have made this arrangement (and how?) is something we'll probably never know.

Sam's self loathing gets a little trying (at least make it, "Hey, I killed a White Walker! Not bad for Sam the Coward!") but he does manage to pull off one of my most hated real world tropes: volunteering somebody else for a job and then getting annoyed when they don't do it - at least he does step up and actually save Gilly himself. I also assume he WILL somehow get a message to Jorah, because GRRM is in many ways a traditionalist when it comes to setting up scenarios like that. Spoilers for the end of Book 5/Season 6:

Since they are both still alive in both book and show - and the story is likely to turn inexorably Northwards - their odds of a rendez vous are pretty good.

Edited September 4, 2016 by John Potts

[Avaleigh]

Arya VI

The brotherhood force Arya and Gendry to wear hoods until they're inside of a cave that Lem says is secret from both the Starks and Lannisters. Arya thinks about the latest wolf dream that she's had and remembers that she could taste the blood when she tore the man's arm away. 

The Mad Huntsmen brings in the Hound and Thoros of Myr asks the Huntsman for details about how Clegane was captured. Arya is surprised when she sees how different Thoros looks compared to the last time she saw him. 

The Hound remembers Thoros by name and makes note of the fact that Thoros no longer shaves his head. Thoros tells the Hound that he's no longer a false priest.

The Lord of Light has woken in my heart. Many powers long asleep are waking, and there are forces moving in the land. I have seen them in my flames.”

Sandor isn't interested in what Thoros has seen in the flames and comments that Thoros keeps odd company for somebody who is supposed to be a holy man. He thinks that the members of the brotherhood look more like swineherds than soldiers and one of the men points out that some of them were swineherds prior to the start of the war. 

Beric talks about how he and his men were sent to bring the king's justice to Gregor Clegane and says that they're all still fighting to defend Robert's realm. Arya notices the difference in Beric's appearance and remembers how handsome Jeyne Poole used to think he was. Beric tells Sandor that he's personally knighted all of the men present and refers to the group as the forgotten fellowship. 

Sandor tells Beric to either let him go or kill him, but to get on with it either way because he's tired of listening to Beric's pious talk. Thoros promises Sandor that he'll die soon enough and says that his death will be justice rather than murder. The Mad Huntsmen brings up the atrocities dealt by the Lannisters at Sherrer and the Mummer's Ford, and Sandor points out that he wasn't present for either incident. Thoros says that House Clegane was built on the bodies of dead children and mentions the murders of Princess Rhaenys and Prince Aegon. Sandor says that he isn't his brother and asks if it's a crime to be born a Clegane. 

Sandor is accused of murder and numerous names are given. Sandor says that the names that are being given mean nothing to him and says that it wasn't his sword that was responsible for killing these people. He says that any man who claims that he is responsible is a liar. Thoros says that Sandor served the Lannisters but Sandor argues that he isn't responsible for the crimes of every Lannister soldier. Sandor goes on to say that the men in the brotherhood lie like knights and supposes that they probably murder like knights. Beric asks the Hound to explain himself.

“A knight’s a sword with a horse. The rest, the vows and the sacred oils and the lady’s favors, they’re silk ribbons tied round the sword. Maybe the sword’s prettier with ribbons hanging off it, but it will kill you just as dead. Well, bugger your ribbons, and shove your swords up your arses. I’m the same as you. The only difference is, I don’t lie about what I am. So, kill me, but don’t call me a murderer while you stand there telling each other that your shit don’t stink. You hear me?”

Arya screams at the Hound that he is a murderer and reminds him about how he killed her friend Mycah. It takes Sandor a few moments to recognize Arya but once he does, he laughs in memory of the incident of her throwing Joffrey's sword into the river and asks her if she's aware that people think she's dead. Arya tells him that he's the one who's dead and Sandor defends himself by saying that he was Joffrey's sworn shield and Mycah made the mistake of attacking Joffrey. Arya says that it's a lie that Mycah ever attacked Joffrey and says that all Mycah did was run away. Sandor says that it wasn't his place to question the prince and points out that Arya's sister confirmed Joffrey's story when asked about it. Arya tells him that Sansa lied and feels angry all over again with her sister over the incident. 

Beric and Thoros have a brief, private discussion before Beric tells the Hound that he's sentenced to trial by combat. Sandor asks Beric if he's stupid or crazy and Beric replies that he's just a lord. He tells the Hound that if he can prove his innocence in battle then he's free to leave. Arya worries about how good the Hound is with a sword and shouts at Beric not to do it.

Beric informs the Hound that he'll be the one to fight him and denies his request to use armor saying that his innocence will have to be armor enough. Sandor doesn't like the idea of Beric being allowed to wear a breastplate if he can't use any armor, so Beric removes his breastplate and reveals what terrible condition his body is in. Beric is helped out of his breastplate by a squire named Ned and Arya gets goosebumps when she hears her father's name being spoken. 

Arya wonders if the Hound is scared at all and hopes that he'll be as scared as Mycah must have been before he was killed.

Thoros leads a prayer to the Lord of Light and then the men start fighting. Beric is fighting with a flaming sword and Arya silently hopes that he'll be victorious. Arya asks Gendry if Beric is using wildfire but Gendry thinks it's something else. Arya wonders if it could be magic. 

The fighting goes on for awhile and at one point Arya thinks that she can see the fear in the Hound's eyes. She thinks that the Hound is close to losing especially once his shield catches fire. The Hound's arm is soon on fire and all of the spectators begin shouting for Beric to finish him off. The Hound screams as he brings down his sword and just as it seems like he's about to lose, Beric's sword ends up snapping in two and the Hound ends up slicing him from his neck to his breastbone. 

Sandor is able to put out the flames on his arm and Arya can hear him whimpering. She wonders why the gods would spare the Hound's life since she knows for a fact that he's guilty. 

The Hound is crying and asks for someone to help him with his burned arm. Arya is shocked and thinks that he's crying like a baby. Thoros asks someone to see to Sandor's burns and then asks others to help him with Beric's body.

Arya grabs a dagger from one of the men and runs over to where the Hound is being helped to his feet. Arya is shocked by how badly burned the Hound's arm is and when he sees the dagger in her hand, he tells her to kill him if she really wants to do it so desperately. She brings up Mycah again and wants Sandor to admit that he killed him. The Hound admits it and mentions how he also watched as Sansa was beaten bloody and when Ned's head was cut off. Lem manages to get the dagger away from Arya and she begins shrieking at the Hound to go to hell. A voice behind her says that he has gone to hell and when Arya turns around, she sees that Beric is alive.