The Official Re-Read of Book 1: A Game Of Thrones

[Avaleigh]

Cersei's ego was crazy huge even this early in the story. She can't stand Robert, she doesn't love him, but she still bristles at the idea that he's always preferred this dead woman to her because it wounds her pride. I feel like Jaime just by grabbing her hand was saying 'seven hells, Cersei, let it go, why the hell do you still care?'

That's interesting because it's quiet different from how i read it. I'm not sure exactly how to describe my view of it but at least i felt with jaime is was more like "I'm sorry no one listens to you". But now when i try to describe it I just start over thinking it.

I agree that the weelhouse sounds ridiculous.

I want to add my thought about how gross it really is to keep people's corpses around stored like that. Better to burn someone and throw the ashes over a field of flowers or something rather than storing their bones in the basement.

 

I actually think that your interpretation of Jaime and Cersei makes more sense here especially since Jaime is still fully in love with Cersei at this point. Obviously I think that the moment still indicates the issues with Cersei's ego and pride but as far as Jaime's reaction I think it would make more sense that he would be sympathetic since Robert is basically dissing her publicly again.

 

It didn't occur to me until reading this quote of yours but now I can see how this could come across as creepy in that Poltergeist way where the house stands over a bunch of corpses. (And now I'm amusing myself wondering if there's any sort of pet cemetery in Winterfell. Yes, I'll show myself out now.)

[InsertWordHere]

(And now I'm amusing myself wondering if there's any sort of pet cemetery in Winterfell. Yes, I'll show myself out now.)

Imagine a direwolf pet cemetery. 

 

And it's just occurred to me that the Targs basically had a pet cemetery for their dragons in the red keep. 

 

I hope the Others can't reanimate dragon bones. 

[Holmbo]

 

Obviously I think that the moment still indicates the issues with Cersei's ego and pride

I agree with that but I don't think it was about Lyanna per se. More that Cersei really, really wants power and will take any opportunity to try to assert it. I can imagine her doing this for everything. Like if they're going to have a dinner and Robert suggest a dish she'd be "no that dish is not appropriate for this occasion, we're going to serve this instead". Because she's a woman she has no real say in important matters so every tiny thing where she can have a say in she will. I'll have to pay attention to Cersei in the rest of the book to see if this interpretation fits.

[Maximum Taco]

Imagine a direwolf pet cemetery. 

 

And it's just occurred to me that the Targs basically had a pet cemetery for their dragons in the red keep. 

 

I hope the Others can't reanimate dragon bones. 

 

I assume they'd be able to. I mean they ride dead horses don't they?

 

Don't know if they'd be able to do it with just the skeletons though. If they manage to get to a dragon that is freshly dead though...

[InsertWordHere]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, that there would have to be some flesh left on the skeleton.

[Avaleigh]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking, that there would have to be some flesh left on the skeleton.

This comment is sort of television vs. show but since the comment that brought about this post started here hopefully it's okay that I post it here. 

 

In the scene where Bran, Jojen, Meera, and Hodor reach Bloodraven--aren't the skeletons that attack them all animated from the power of the Others? The Others don't necessarily need flesh to be on the dead, do they? I figure that a recently dead corpse would be more useful as far as something like the condition of the bones but I wasn't under the impression that flesh is necessarily needed in order to make wights. 

 

As far as whether or not the Others would be able to animate a dead dragon--

 

I would think that they would be able to and basically lean towards this being the case. There's only one thing that gives me pause and I'm spoiler tagging only because I think this info might come up in later books--

 

If the Others are capable of turning dragons into wights then why is there no mention of this when it comes to the tales of the Others? We've heard plenty about the spiders that are associated with them even though we haven't happened to see one appear in the story yet. I don't care if it happened 8,000 years ago. If people are going to remember the ice spiders from back then, then surely they'd remember the dragons.

 

I can't remember where it's said but I'm pretty sure that I remember reading that dragons were or had been in Westeros and elsewhere prior to the Targaryens coming into the picture. If that's the case then surely there were some dragons that the Others would have been able to work with if they'd had a mind to. Is it possible that the magic connected with dragons is something that makes it impossible for them to become wights when they die?

 

[Or is it possible that the ice dragons that are mentioned in TWOIAF are simply dead dragons that have been turned into wights? The main thing that makes me doubt that this is the case is that the ice dragons are said to be about three times the size of regular dragons. If that's the case then clearly these aren't dragons that have been turned into wights. OTOH what are we supposed to make of the fact that their eyes sound like what happens to human eyes after the humans have been turned into wights? Furthermore how can people say for sure that ice dragons are bigger if there are no surviving bones? I can see a scenario ages ago where a regular dragon was in the position where it ended up taking on an ice dragon but I wonder how any witnesses to that conflict would know that the regular dragon didn't just happen to be younger than the bigger (an presumably older) ice dragon?

 

Also, what about the Others and direwolves?

My speculation is that if there's some magic involved that keeps dragons from being wightified (again, I lean towards this not being an issue) then wouldn't the same logic apply to the seemingly magical direwolves?

[Holmbo]

This comment is sort of television vs. show but since the comment that brought about this post started here hopefully it's okay that I post it here.

In the scene where Bran, Jojen, Meera, and Hodor reach Bloodraven--aren't the skeletons that attack them all animated from the power of the Others?

I'm thinking the idea here was that the whights where just really old. Not necessarily that they had been turned as skeletons.

About whight dragons i don't think there where any dragons in westeros before the Targaryens came. So they would not have been any around for the last long winter.

[Constantinople]

Another quote I want to bring up

 

three acres of old forest untouched for ten thousand years as the gloomy castle rose around it.

 

And so starts the typical for high fantasy ridiculously long time spans of things not changing. Authors don't seem to realize how long ago that really is. In my country ten thousand years ago was the end of the ice age and people where just starting to populate the land again using their stone tools. Of course GRRM could be saved by having only pov characters to relay all his information so it might be them that have gotten the time wrong.

 

I think there are a few, interrelated issues at play

 

1. Unreliable narration

As you mentioned, the source of this information is the POV of the characters. They may be mistaken, having forgotten something, or conflated two stories, etc. Even if they accurately repeated what they once read or heard, their source or sources may be mistaken.

There are some indications that the characters themselves wonder about the factual accuracy of what they "know". "If the tales were true" is part of the Catelyn I chapter that Avaleigh quoted. Later in the first book, Ned's thoughts turn to Lann the Clever and compares Lann to Bran the Builder in a tone of mind that suggests that Ned doesn't believe that either existed.

2. The purpose of history

Not all societies feel a need for 100% factually accurate history.  For example, "Thousands of years" may just be a phrase used to indicate a long time. The exact numbers -- 5 thousand, 8 thousand, 10 thousand, etc -- may just indicate what is believed to be the relative age among that which is very old, not precise chronology.  I recall reading a book about the Trojan War where the author stated that the Trojan War didn't necessarily last 10 years; that the phrase "10 years" just meant that the war went on for a long time.

 

This may be true for people as well.  Bran the Builder may just be a way of Westeros's way, or The North's way, of remembering or telling itself that the Wall was built by humans.

[Avaleigh]

I'm thinking the idea here was that the whights where just really old. Not necessarily that they had been turned as skeletons.

About whight dragons i don't think there where any dragons in westeros before the Targaryens came. So they would not have been any around for the last long winter.

I'll post the next summary today in just a bit. (Work has been kicking my ass lately!)

I think you're right about the wights not being turned as skeletons.

As to the above quote--I'm going to have to look for the quotes later but I was under the impression that (wild/untamed) dragons were on Westeros, Essos, and Sothoryos way, way back in the day and that there are bones as evidence. I wonder if this was a quote of GRRM's or something from TWOIAF or maybe something I'm misremembering altogether.

I know that Nagga was a sea dragon but surely if there were sea dragons in Westeros then it wouldn't be out of the question that there were a few land dragons. When I think about mammoths, direwolves, and saber tooth cats still being found North of the Wall it makes me think that maybe ice dragons have been around for a similar amount of time? Maybe they didn't go through the same extinction period as their fiery counterparts?

l think the two main things I'm stuck on regarding the ice dragons are the way that they melt like the Others do when they're killed and the bright blue eyes. IIRC wights don't melt after they're killed so this seems like it goes against the idea that ice dragons are regular dragons that were turned.

Another thing--if there weren't any dragons in Westeros prior to the Targaryens then isn't it curious that this new species of dragon was able to develop so quickly? Even allowing for the fact that this is a fantasy series it seems odd to me that these new dragons would pop into the picture so quickly unless there was some sort of magical explanation.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

We'll have to look closely for more references and hints to dragons and ice dragons in our continued reread. Hopefully something will come up.

Constantinople has a point about the thousands of year remark in that it maybe shouldn't be taken literal. But in a later book it does seem that Sam at least takes the 997 lord commanders literally and is surprised that he can find records of so much fewer.

[Avaleigh]

SUMMARY 

 

JON I

Every once in a while Jon Snow is happy to be considered a bastard by society and today happens to be one of those days. He's drinking summerwine with the younger squires and is basically just having a nice low key time during the welcoming feast for the royal family. He's pleased that he gets to drink as much as he wants and knows that he isn't under a magnifying glass the way that his half brothers and sisters are. While his brothers and sisters have to be on their best behavior in front of the royal family, Jon is enjoying himself listening to the stories of the men and other guys are egging him on to drink more.

 

The story picks up four hours into the party and Jon is going over everything that has happened so far. Ned escorts Cersei into the Hall and Jon thinks that she's just as beautiful as the men said she would be; he also thinks that he can see through her smile. Robert escorts Catelyn into the hall and Jon thinks that the King is a great disappointment because he was expecting a warrior as opposed to an overweight man who seems well on his way to becoming intoxicated.

 

Robb takes Myrcella into the hall and there's a cute moment where she looks shyly at him and seems to have a bit of a crush. Twelve year old Crown Prince Joffrey takes Sansa and Jon thinks that Sansa looks radiant. Joffrey on the other hand looks bored and disdainful and doesn't seem particularly impressed with Winterfell. Arya and Tommen are paired together and Jon notes that Tommen's blonde hair is longer than Arya's.

Jon attention is taken with the arrival of the queen's brothers Jaime and Tyrion Lannister. Jon seems to be impressed with Jaime's appearance and actually thinks to himself that Jaime is "what a king should look like". It's said that Jaime is called the Lion of Lannister to his face and the "Kingslayer" behind his back.

While Jaime Lannister is tall and handsome, his brother Tyrion is anything but. Tyrion is an unattractive dwarf with a huge head and a waddle for a walk. His eyes are two different colors and he's described as having white blonde hair. Jon seems to be fascinated with both brothers and can't look away.

 

The last of the special mentions to come into the hall and take their seats are Theon Greyjoy and Benjen Stark. Benjen makes sure to acknowledge Jon and smile at him as he goes by but Theon pointedly ignores Jon and Jon seems to expect this sort of behavior from him. There's a small moment where Jon feeds his direwolf Ghost some chicken from the table and it seems that Ghost is about to get into a fight with a dog over it but the dog, while being three times the size of Ghost, thinks better of challenging the direwolf so the moment passes.

 

Benjen approaches Jon and sits down with him at the table. He asks Jon how many cups of wine he's had but is good natured about it saying that he was younger than Jon the first time he got properly drunk. Benjen comments that Ghost is a very quiet wolf. Jon admits that Ghost is not like the other direwolves and says that Ghost doesn't make a sound. Ghost is also the only direwolf who isn't grey or black. Benjen tells Jon that there are direwolves beyond the Wall and that they can hear them during rangings.

 

Benjen asks Jon if he usually sits at the high table with the rest of his family and Jon admits that he usually does but says that Catelyn thought it might be insulting to the royal family to force them to sit at the same table as a bastard. Benjen notices that Ned doesn't seem to be in a particularly festive mood and Jon has noticed too.

 

Ned seems tense, Robert is drunk, Cersei seems angry, and Jon brings up how Cersei didn't want Robert to go down to the crypts. Benjen gives Jon a "careful measured look" here and tells Jon that he's pretty quick and that the could use men like him on the Wall. Jon then suddenly asks Benjen to take him with him back to the Wall. Benjen cautions Jon that the Wall is a hard place for a boy and Jon says that he's almost fifteen so he's nearly grown.

 

Jon mentions Daeron Targaryen and how he was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne. Benjen replies that Boy King Daeron lost ten thousand men trying to take Dorne and lost another fifty trying to keep it. He reminds Jon that Daeron died when he was eighteen but Jon says that he hasn't forgotten. Jon thinks it is the wine that makes him so bold and tells Benjen that he wants to serve in the Night's Watch.

 

Jon has actually given this a fair amount of thought and reasons that Robb will inherit Winterfell and one day become the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon will be bannermen to Robb and rule holdfasts in his name. He imagines that his sisters will marry the heirs of other great houses and go south be ladies of their own castles. Since Jon is a bastard he doesn't see a place for himself and seems to think that he can find purpose and honor at the Wall.

 

Benjen tries to get Jon to understand that he's too young to make this sort of choice. He says that Jon doesn't understand what he'd be giving up and reminds Jon that men of the Night's Watch aren't allowed to marry and have children once they take their vows. Jon says he doesn't care about that and Benjen tells him that he at least needs to be with a woman before he can say for sure. Jon's starting to get upset and ends up shouting at Benjen that he'll never father a bastard and there's a moment where the party sort of stops and the guys around him look at him so Jon gets all emotional and has to leave before anyone sees him cry. As he's trying to leave he has a drunken stumble and ends up making some wine fall out of the hands of a serving girl onto the floor. There's no stopping the tears now and he runs out of the hall with Ghost trailing behind him.

 

Jon goes outside into the yard to be alone and soon finds himself in conversation with Tyrion Lannister. Jon wonders why Tyrion isn't at the feast and Tyrion tells him that he drank too much and had to excuse himself just in case he ended up vomiting. Tyrion wants a closer look a Jon's direwolf and there's an odd little acrobatic moment with Tyrion as he jumps down from where he'd been perched like a "gargoyle".

 

Ghost seems suspicious of Tyrion and initially backs away. When Tyrion tries to pet him Ghost snarls silently. It isn't until Jon talks to Ghost and soothes him that Tyrion is able to pet Ghost with his approval.

Tyrion introduces himself and asks Jon if he's Ned Stark's bastard. Jon bristles a bit and Tyrion apologizes for putting it so bluntly. Jon confirms that he is the son of Lord Eddard Stark. Tyrion comments that Jon looks more like a Northerner than his brothers and this comment pleases Jon but he keeps that fact to himself.

As the chapter comes to a close, Tyrion decides that he's going to give his new friend some advice and it leads to the following exchange:

“Let me give you some counsel, bastard,” Lannister said. “Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.”

Jon was in no mood for anyone’s counsel. “What do you know about being a bastard?”

“All dwarfs are bastards in their father’s eyes.”

“You are your mother’s trueborn son of Lannister.”

“Am I?” the dwarf replied, sardonic. “Do tell my lord father. My mother died birthing me, and he’s never been sure.”

“I don’t even know who my mother was,” Jon said.

“Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are.” He favored Jon with a rueful grin. “Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs.” And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

[Maximum Taco]

I know that Nagga was a sea dragon but surely if there were sea dragons in Westeros then it wouldn't be out of the question that there were a few land dragons. When I think about mammoths, direwolves, and saber tooth cats still being found North of the Wall it makes me think that maybe ice dragons have been around for a similar amount of time? Maybe they didn't go through the same extinction period as their fiery counterparts?

 

Do we have any confirmation that Sea Dragons are actual dragons of the sea? Isn't it possible that they are unrelated to the species of dragon the Dragonlords of Valyria are known for and simply creatures that look like dragons and live in the sea? I'm thinking something like a leviathan?

 

In regards to the most recent chapter we're discussing, I'm frequently of the opinion that GRRM is sneaking things into the books so upon rereads we just yell at the pages when an opportunity comes about to avert the upcoming disasters. The one I'm pointing to here is the ultimately meaningless moment between Robb and Myrcella. It seems like such a throwaway line and has still ended up sparking a few fanfictions from the "happy ending" fanbase, desperate to save

Sansa from her terrible fate.

[Holmbo]

Favorite: The exchange between Jon and Tyrion quoted in the summary. Specially the part about wearing what you are as an armor which might be my favorite line in the whole series. It sums up what I love about it, the theme of identity and how people asign it to themselves and others.

 

Prediction: Tyrion will hurt a Stark at some point. We see in this chapter that Ghost doesn't like Tyrion. IRC none of the wolfs like him which seems to hint at him being bad news for the Stark's. He still hasn't done anything outright bad to them even though his actions have indirectly helped people to hurt them.
Maybe the wolfs are just prejudice to dwarfs. I've heard about research that shows many dogs have a lot of prejudice. They often for example dislike people with another skin color than their owners.

 

What-if: I'm going with your what-if MT about Robb and Myrcella being betroth instead of Sansa and Joffrey. That's what you meant right about the fanfiction?
Actually I don't see how that would change much. Sansa and Arya would still be going to KL but not Bran because he'd still be thrown. Robb would stay in WF to be the main Stark and his betrothal to Myrcella would be considered broken when Joff killed Ned.

 

I wonder what age Benjen took the black and for what reason. I know that it's said Starks find the black to still be honorable but still, it's not like it's ever mentioned as a possibility that Bran or Rickon would take the black. Something must have happened to make Benjen do it. Does anyone know how old he was at the time of the rebellion?
Also there seems like there are so many other possibilities for Jon than going to the wall. I'm sure one of the lesser stark bannermen would take him on as a squire if Ned asked him.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Holmbo

[Constantinople]

In Ned's first chapter we're told that the North is as large as all of the rest of the 7 Kingdoms put together.  Even if this isn't the literal truth -- though you'd think that was something measure reasonably accurately -- there should somewhere in the North that Jon could go.

 

Of course, there are a number of reasons for Jon to join the NW:  Jon has family in the NW, his uncle Benjen; the sense of purpose from guarding the Wall; a place where being a 'Snow' theoretically doesn't matter.

 

Not sure why or when Benjen joined the Night's Watch.

 

If Benjen joined the Watch before Robert's Rebellion, then who would have been the Stark in Winterfell when Ned went south to fight?  On the other hand, when Winterfell's heir (Brandon) and spare (Ned) were both alive, Benjen would have been surplus to requirements.

 

Speaking of the North's size, on a day-to-day basis, Ned already is effectively the King's Hand of half of the Seven Kingdoms, the northern half.  Perhaps it would make more sense to appoint a Southerner as the King's Hand to mind the southern half and leave Ned where he is.

 

ETA: I think the only way a Robb-Myrcella betrothal changes things would be if Myrcella stayed in Winterfell (though I don't know why she would).

Edited April 1, 2015 by Constantinople

[Maximum Taco]

What-if: I'm going with your what-if MT about Robb and Myrcella being betroth instead of Sansa and Joffrey. That's what you meant right about the fanfiction?

Actually I don't see how that would change much. Sansa and Arya would still be going to KL but not Bran because he'd still be thrown. Robb would stay in WF to be the main Stark and his betrothal to Myrcella would be considered broken when Joff killed Ned.

 

Bran would definitely still get tossed, and thusly Arya and Sansa would still go to King's Landing. But other things could easily change.

 

I do think it's unlikely, but Myrcella could remain at Winterfell. If she does it would obviously give Robb a decent amount of leverage against the crown.

 

More likely is a change in Sansa's behavior. Since Sansa is not to be wed to Joffrey it's less likely he spends as much time with her, especially once they reach King's Landing. It's also less likely Cersei spends as much time with Sansa, and Sansa wouldn't trust her as much. Sansa is more likely to become more infatuated with Loras Tyrell and might forget about Joffrey entirely. This means she has much less of a reason (and possible less means) to betray Ned to Cersei (she only really warns Cersei because Ned wants to break off the engagement), and Ned can get the girls off to Winterfell much more easily. Ned probably still loses his head in this scenario, but it's because he refuses to recant his statement about Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen's bastardy, which is what he would do if he knew Sansa and Arya were safe.

 

Spoilers for ACOK/ASOS

If the girls are not in King's Landing, it's unlikely that Jaime ever escapes the Northern Army, and if Jaime is still in Robb's custody it's highly unlikely the Red Wedding happens. Tywin is not going to slaughter the Northerners until his son is safe.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

I didn't remember Jon crying in this chapter. I felt bad but it was also kind of funny.

Since I'm of the opinion that

Tyrion is Jon's half uncle

this chapter is particularly interesting to me. Jon mentioning the young Targaryen who conquered Dorne and Tyrion standing as "tall as a king"--if the story is going where I think it is I love these little inclusions .

Theon was always a douchebag. That much is pretty plain.

Why would Cersei be angry at this point? Or is she just annoyed that Robert is being an embarrassingdrunk for the uumpteenth time?

Lol at Joffrey snubbing beautiful Winterfell. I bet he'd have the same reaction to any castle save the Rock and maybe Harrenhaal, the latter because it would probably hold a kind of macabre fascination for him.

How is Jon not interested in sex at almost fifteen years of age? Bastard or not it's odd that he wouldn't want to first try his luck somewhere that wouldn't require celibacy. Like Robert said earlier it's not like the Wall is going anywhere. He could have always chosen to join later as Benjen suggested. Interesting that he was set on it before everything happened with Bran.

[Constantinople]

Since I'm of the opinion that

Tyrion is Jon's half uncle

this chapter is particularly interesting to me. Jon mentioning the young Targaryen who conquered Dorne and Tyrion standing as "tall as a king"--if the story is going where I think it is I love these little inclusions .

Technically, it was Tyrion's shadow that stood tall as a king. I'm not sure if there's any significance in that.

There may be more to Jon mentioning the Daeron Targaryen conquest of Dorne, but it also may just be a comment on the ignorance and folly of youth (Jon) and the stupidity and wastefulness of war.

[Avaleigh]

SUMMARY

CATELYN II

The castle of Winterfell has been built over a natural hot springs so the walls of the castle are always warm and the springs are one of the things that help the Starks survive the brutal northern winters.

Ned and Catelyn have just finished having sex and Catelyn hopes that she'll get pregnant and that she'll still be able to give her husband another son. Ned opens the windows to let in the cold air and Catelyn thinks about how Ned has said in the past that the Starks were made for the cold.

With his mindseemingly made up Ned tells Catelyn that he's going to refuse the position of Hand of the King. Catelyn sits up and emphatically tells him that he cannot refuse. Catelyn tells him that a refusal will put their family in danger because it will makeRobert think that Ned opposes him for some reason and that this is why he doesn't want to serve as Hand.

Ned comes to Robert's defense and says that Robert will never harm him because they are as close as brothers. He insists he still knows Robert and Catelyn cautions that while he knew Robert once this King is basically a stranger to him. Catelyn tries hard to get Ned to see that it would be a mistake to wound Robert's pride by throwing the offer back in his face after Robert has traveled all this way. Catelyn also thinks about the omen of the stag killing the direwolf.

When Ned points out that Catelyn truly does see the position of Hand of the King as an honor she begins to get upset with him and tells him that it is an honor. Catelyn wants to know what's so bad about their daughter getting to be Queen one day?

Ned brings up Sansa's age again and Catelyn points out that she was just twelve when she was betrothed to Ned's brother Brandon. Once Catelyn mentions Brandon, Ned starts to think about how Brandon was meant to be the Lord of Winterfell and feels that Brandon would know what to do. He thinks that this life wasn't meant for him. Catelyn says that this is the hand that he has been dealt (pun not originally intended) and that he has to accept it whether he likes it or not. Ned turns away from her after she says this.

Catelyn softened then, to see his pain.Eddard Stark had married her in Brandon's lace, as custom decreed but the shadow of his dead brother still lay in between them, as did the other, the shadow of the woman he would not name, the woman who had borne him his bastard son.

There's a knock at the door and Ned and Catelyn are told that Maester Luwin would like a private audience. Maester Luwin comes in and tells Ned that he's been left a message inside of a wooden box that contains a lens. It turns out that the message is intended for Catelyn's eyes only so Maester Luwin gives it to her. Ned tells Maester Luwin to remain. Catelyn is initially afraid to open the letter once she realizes that it's from Lysa; once she sees that it's been written in a private language that she and Lysa used to use as girls she's even more concerned. At this point Maester Luwin again offers to retreat owing to the sensitivity of the situation but it's clear that both Ned and Catelyn trust him implicitly. Catelyn also adds that they'll need his counsel.

Catelyn then gets out of bed naked to grab her dressing gown and kind of shocks both Ned and Maester Luwin in the process. Maester Luwin looks away from Cat and Ned asks her what she's doing. Catelyn thinks that they're both being silly and brings up the fact that Maester Luwin has delivered all of her children and that now isn't really the time for false modesty.

Ned pulls Catelyn to her feet and wants to know what was in the damned letter. Catelyn tells Ned that it was a warning and that Lysa says Jon Arryn was murdered. Ned wants to know who did it and Catelyn says that Lysa claims that it was the Lannisters specifically the Queen.

Ned doesn't believe it and thinks that Lysa could be saying things because she's sick with grief. Catelyn is sure that Lysa wouldn't risk sending a letter like that if she didn't know for sure.Catelyn is convinced now more than ever that Ned needs to accept the offer of Hand of the King and tells him how she feels.

Maester Luwin tells Ned that as Hand of the King he'll have the power to find out the truth about Jon Arryn's death not to mention that it should be easy to protect Lysa and Robert Arryn as the second most powerful man in the realm. Catelyn asks Ned if he's really willing to allow the King to continue to allow himself to be surrounded by Lannisters. Ned kind of feels like Catelyn and Luwin are ganging up so he mutters something about the Others taking them both.

Ned takes a moment to reflect before mentioning the fact that his own father once rode south to answer the summons from a king only never to return. Maester Luwin tries to make Ned feel better by pointing out that Ned's father was dealing with a very different sort of king back then but Ned still seems pretty downcast. He tells Catelyn that she'll have to remain at Winterfell.

Catelyn isn't expecting to not be allowed to go and immediately tries to argue thinking that Ned wants to punish her. It's clear that she'll miss him body and soul.

Ned tells Catelyn that she'll have to rule the North in his stead and that Robb too should remain and suggests that Robb be apart of her councils. Ned also tells Maester Luwin that he trusts him as he trusts his own family and asks him to advise both Catelyn and Robb.

Catelyn asks about the rest of their children and Ned says that all but Robb and Rickon will accompany him to King's Landing. Catelyn is upset at having to be separated from her children but is especially reluctant to part with Bran. She pleads with Ned to allow Bran to be left with her at Winterfell.

She thinks Sansa will shine at court and she admits that Arya could do with some refining, but she can't think of an upside to being parted from Bran. Ned tells Catelyn that that he thinks Bran could be a way of getting rid of the bad blood that is beginning to form between Joffrey and Robb. Bran is kind and friendly so Catelyn takes Ned's point and resigns herself to the fact that she's going to be separated from her children for the foreseeable future. She also tells Ned to keep Bran from climbing the walls at King's Landing.

Ned and Cat embrace and he tries to comfort her and literally kisses away her tears. As this is happening, Maester Luwin asks about Jon Snow which immediately makes Catelyn get tense causing Ned to pull away from her.

Catelyn thinks to herself that she could have dealt with Ned having a dozen bastard children with other women provided they remained out of her sight. She more or less admits to expecting that she'd have to do this at some point. What she wasn't expecting was for Ned to bring Jon and call him son for everyone to see. She remembers how she came to Winterfell for the first time and thinks about how painful it was for her to see Jon in residence even before she was. She goes back to when she one time gathered enough nerve to ask Ned about Jon's mother and the possibility that it was Ashara Dayne. She remembers this occasion as being the only time in their marriage where Ned actually frightened her. Ned tells Catelyn that Jon is his blood and that's all she needs to know. He also wants to know whereshe heard the name Ashara Dayne and makes sure that nobody in Winterfell ever mentions her again.

Catelyn concludes that whoever Jon's mother was that Ned must have loved her fiercely because no matter what she says or does it has been impossible for her to get Ned to send Jon away. Catelyn loves Ned but she simply cannot forgive him for Jon. She tells Ned that Jon has to leave. Ned seems stung and hoped that it would be fine for Jon to remain at Winterfell since he and Robb are so close. Catelyn doesn't care how close Jon is with Robb; she is adamant that he must go and reminds Ned that Jon is his son not hers. She makes it plain that she doesn't care that she's being hard.

Ned wants to know how Catelyn can be so cruel and tells her that she knows he won't be able to take Jon with him to King's Landing and that even the King's own bastard children aren't allowed at court. Catelyn still doesn't care however, and at this point Maester Luwin cuts in and tells them that Jon is interested in joining the Night's Watch. Catelyn for her part is thrilled with this news and thinks this means that Jon might be permanently removed as a threat from her life and the lives of her grandchildren.

Ned is shocked that Jon wants to join and seems to feel as Benjen does in that Jon is too young to make that sort of choice. Maester Luwin says that times are tough and basically says that life gets roughfor eeveryone. Catelyn seems to think that her suffering is greater than everyone else's in that room but to her credit at least she keeps this thought to herself. Ned resigns himself to the fact that it's probably best that Jon joins the Wall ans says that he's going to talk to Benjen about it.

Maester Luwin wants to know when Jon will be told and Ned says that he wants to let Jon enjoy a few more days now that summer and his childhood appear to be ending simultaneously.

[Holmbo]

It is so cold in my room right now so when I read about the hot springs at Winterfell it made me dream about a hot tub.

Favorite thing The hot spring baths. I wan't one!

Prediction I have nothing. All the stuff that is hinted at in this chapter has already happened in the books or the characters are dead. I read a pretty cool theory once at westeros.org about Ashara Dayne being the mother of Jojen and Meera. Since she is mentioned in this chapter I'm going with that one. If anyone would be interested in reading it I can find a link.

what if Bran didn't fall and went with them to court. Would he and Tommen have been friends? I find it hard to imagine, they seem so different. But maybe they would have sort of a younger and older brother relationship. I wonder how Bran would have been as a hostage at court. He would have had it better than Sansa at least but probably still pretty bad.

This chapter also gives us a look on how screwed up marriage is in this works even for a couple that love each other. When catelyn thinks that "she had pledged to obey" when Ned tells her to say who talked about Ashara Dayne.

In our time Catelyn would not be pledged to obey and she would have had the right to decide that she did not want to live in the same house as Ned's bastard.

Edited April 4, 2015 by Holmbo

[clady]

My what if is Ned turning down becoming Roberts Hand. His fate might have changed if he refused but really I doubt it.

[Holmbo]

That one is a bigger what-if. I'm thinking Robert would have died before Ned's slight would have become a problem. And even if he didn't what could he do? The north is too big to be invaded. I'm thinking Robert would pick some other hand (maybe jaime but I'm not sure, there are lots of other random men he could pick) and then Cersei would kill him at some point and Joffrey would be king. Ned would come down and swear fealty to him and even though he might suspect foul play there would be nothing he could do and the Lannister's would have no reason to pick a fight with him.

Stannis would know about the incest though so if he could convince Ned about that Ned would fight for his right to the throne. Tully would probably join them too. So it would be Lannister against Stark and baratheon. Not sure if Renly would still go for the crown. Probably not since there would be more opposition. So he'd probably join stannis too together with the Tyrells. This starts to turn into a happy ending fan fic. :)

[Constantinople]

SUMMARY

CATELYN II

The castle of Winterfell has been built over a natural hot springs so the walls of the castle are always warm and the springs are one of the things that help the Starks survive the brutal northern winters.

 

 

It is so cold in my room right now so when I read about the hot springs at Winterfell it made me dream about a hot tub.

That bit about the hot tub always makes me imagine Ned in the proverbial California redwood hot tub with a wine spritzer in his hand.

[InsertWordHere]

Maybe the hot springs are like Hot Tub Time Machine and

Bran

is going to go down there and travel back and change the past! That's why there must always be a Stark in Winterfell, for the time traveling escapades. 

 

I kid. Mostly. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Avaleigh]

It is so cold in my room right now so when I read about the hot springs at Winterfell it made me dream about a hot tub. Favorite thing The hot spring baths. I wan't one! Prediction I have nothing. All the stuff that is hinted at in this chapter has already happened in the books or the characters are dead. I read a pretty cool theory once at westeros.org about Ashara Dayne being the mother of Jojen and Meera. Since she is mentioned in this chapter I'm going with that one. If anyone would be interested in reading it I can find a link. what if Bran didn't fall and went with them to court. Would he and Tommen have been friends? I find it hard to imagine, they seem so different. But maybe they would have sort of a younger and older brother relationship. I wonder how Bran would have been as a hostage at court. He would have had it better than Sansa at least but probably still pretty bad.

This chapter also gives us a look on how screwed up marriage is in this works even for a couple that love each other. When catelyn thinks that "she had pledged to obey" when Ned tells her to say who talked about Ashara Dayne.

In our time Catelyn would not be pledged to obey and she would have had the right to decide that she did not want to live in the same house as Ned's bastard.

I remember reading that theory about Ashara being the mother of the Reed siblings and I think it makes sense. I guess my only question is why would that marriage have to be such a mystery? Why put out the word that she'd thrown herself into the sea?

I do know that I prefer the idea of Ashara being the mother of the Reeds as opposed to being Septa Lemore. IMO if Lemore is Ashara then why would Tyrion not have instantly commented on the color of her eyes?

As for Ned and Catelyn's marriage, I find it interesting that adultery doesn't bother Cat so much as what she feels is blatant disrespect. Whenever people say that Cat's treatment of Jon wasn't that bad I look at this scene, before the shock of what happened to Bran, her attitude towards Jon permeated the entire household in a negative way and it shows itself in each of the Starks. How much better and easier would it have been if she could have brought herself to love an innocent and motherless child.

My what if is what if Catelyn had gone to King's Landing? (This is assuming that Bran didn't fall.) Would she have been able to keep Ned from making certain mistakes? Would he have listened to her? How would she have got on with the royal family? What would she make of Joffrey's changed attitude towards Sansa? I wonder if she'd piece together the incest?

Going back to the idea of Robb and Myrcella for a minute--I don't see why Myrcella wouldn't have remained at Winterfell during the betrothal. If she can go down to Dorne why not the North? I can even see a situation where Sansa would remain to be a companion to the princess for a time while Arya is still taken on to KL and both Sansa and Arya getting upset about how unfair it all is since Sansa was the most interested in going to the South and Arya seemed more attached to Winterfell.

Arya I is coming up later today. Work has been insane for me lately plus Easter in the mix has meant next to no free time for me the past few weeks. (The only thing worse than a coworker unexpectedly taking ill is when that illness coincides with the three week vacation of another coworker. FML.) I can't believe we're at the new season already--for me it went by so fast!

[Maximum Taco]

I remember reading that theory about Ashara being the mother of the Reed siblings and I think it makes sense. I guess my only question is why would that marriage have to be such a mystery? Why put out the word that she'd thrown herself into the sea?

 

I don't think it makes very much sense.

 

The theory as I read it seemed full of a lot of holes. 

 

My big problems, in addition to your ones about why all the secrecy, are,

1) Why don't Meera and Jojen have any Dayne characteristics? By all accounts the Daynes traits are heavily hereditary with almost everyone having violet eyes, and many having silver hair. 

2) How is Howland passing off the tall, strikingly beautiful Ashara with her violet eyes, as being a crannogwoman?

 

It seems very convoluted, and also unnecessary to the story. Not that everything has to be necessary to the story. But if GRRM invented such a convoluted mystery, you'd think it would be more important to the story. I mean R + L = J has less work put into it than this and has much further reaching implications.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

Ashara doesn't have the silver hair, right?

I don't know that Howland would necessarily be trying to pass her off as a crannogwoman to his people. If the theory is true I'd think that the crannogmen would know that she's not one of them but since they're pretty secretive it seems to me that they'd be disinclined to spread the word.

That being said I agree with your point that it doesn't really add anything to the story.

Now I want to read the theory again because I can't recall specifically what sold me.

I think it has something to do with a quote from when Meera is talking about the KotLT buI'm not sure.

[Maximum Taco]

Ashara doesn't have the silver hair, right?

I don't know that Howland would necessarily be trying to pass her off as a crannogwoman to his people. If the theory is true I'd think that the crannogmen would know that she's not one of them but since they're pretty secretive it seems to me that they'd be disinclined to spread the word.

That being said I agree with your point that it doesn't really add anything to the story.

Now I want to read the theory again because I can't recall specifically what sold me.

I think it has something to do with a quote from when Meera is talking about the KotLT buI'm not sure.

 

Ashara doesn't, she has dark hair, and I'm not sure about Allyria either. I actually have thought that the pale hair may be a male only trait amongst the Daynes. Since all the male Daynes we know do have silver hair (Edric, Darkstar and Ser Arthur.) But all of the ones we know about have violet eyes.

 

In regards to Howland passing Ashara off as a crannogwoman, in the book appendix Howland's wife is listed as "Jyana, of the crannogmen" probably because Jyana is not of a noble house and has no last name, which would not be a large issue for the hermetic crannogmen who probably wouldn't have a problem with their lord marrying a commoner. So while he might not be trying to pass her off as a crannogwoman to his own people, he is saying outwardly to the rest of the public that he is married to a crannogwoman.

 

Here's the theory I read: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/

 

It's a ridiculously thin argument in my opinion, even though it is very lengthy. It tries to be another R + L = J, but in the end there's a lot of very compelling evidence for that theory, and this one has much much less.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[InsertWordHere]

Ashara doesn't have the silver hair, right?

 

Right. According to Barristan, she had dark hair and haunting violet eyes.

"Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter."

 

Edited April 7, 2015 by InsertWordHere

[Avaleigh]

SUMMARY

 

ARYA I

 

Arya and Sansa are working on needlepoint designs with a group of other girls. Arya's needlework sucks and she seems to be a bit jealous that Sansa is so good at it. Their instructor Septa Mordane has plenty of praise for Sansa but clearly doesn't have the same opinion of Arya. Arya also seems to think that she's being somewhat unfairly criticized when she notices that Myrcella's stitches are crooked too but Septa Mordane has nothing but good things to say about the princess's needlework.

 

Sansa is happily chatting with Jeyne Poole and Beth Cassel and seems to be the center of attention among the girls. When Jeyne goes to whisper something in Sansa's ear, Arya suddenly wants to know what they're talking about and it seems like she's feeling a bit left out. Sansa tells Arya that they were talking about "handsome" Prince Joffrey and the other girls make comments about how Joffrey likes Sansa and how they think Sansa will be queen one day. Sansa blushes a little and wants to know what Arya thinks of Joffrey. Arya comments that Jon thinks that Joffrey looks like a girl and Sansa says that Jon probably made the comment out of jealousy due to his status as a bastard. Arya seems annoyed by this remark and shoots back that Jon is their brother. At this point Septa Mordane interrupts and wants to know what they're talking about. Sansa corrects Arya by saying that Jon is their half brother and then smoothly lies to the Septa about what they were really talking about.

 

Septa Mordane wants to know why Arya has stopped working on her needlepoint and demands to see the stitches she's been struggling with. Arya gives the Septa what she's been working on and the Septa begins to criticize Arya in front of the entire room. Jeyne Poole smirks as Arya is being told how terrible her work is while Myrcella at least seems to feel sorry her. The criticism seems to be too much for Arya because she's reduced to tears and gets up to run from the room. Septa Mordane is even more disapproving at this and feels like Arya is embarrassing them all in front of their royal visitor. Arya is totally crying now but she gives a little bow to Myrcella and basically asks her if she can leave. Myrcella seems a little confused as to what she should do so Septa Mordane takes charge and decides to ask Arya where she thinks she's going. Arya's over Septa Mordane and "sweetly" tells the woman that she's going to go out and shoe a horse. The Septa is properly shocked and can think of no reply before Arya opens the door and runs away.

 

Arya is pretty resentful of her sister Sansa and thinks that Sansa has "everything". Arya thinks that Sansa is prettier and more talented in pretty much every way. Arya thinks that the only two things that she is better at than Sansa are riding and math and it just doesn't seem fair to her.

Arya goes to her direwolf Nymeria and it's clear that the two already have a deep and loving bond. We learn that Arya has named her direwolf after the warrior queen of the Rhoyne who led her people across the Narrow Sea to Dorne. Arya hugs Nymeria and the wolf licks her face and it's a pretty sweet moment.

 

Arya thinks that Septa Mordane has probably already told her mother about what happened so Arya wants to avoid being in trouble for awhile. Rather than returning to her room she decides to go and visit with her brothers who are training in the yard. When she and Nymeria get there they go and sit with Jon and Ghost to watch Bran and Prince Tommen practicing with wooden swords. Arya is a little disappointed that she only made it in time to see the younger boys fighting but she's happy to be there all the same telling Jon that sword fighting is a lot more fun than needlework.

 

Arya thinks about how close she and Jon have always been. They even look alike in a way with both of them having the typical Stark look whereas the other Stark children favor the Tullys in appearance. When Arya was younger she actually wondered if her looks meant that she too was a bastard and it was Jon she confided her fears to and Jon who comforted her and put her mind at ease.

 

Arya wonders why Jon wasn't fighting today with the others and it's because of his bastard status. Arya again reflects on how unfair life is and feels a little stupid that she didn't realize that Jon wouldn't be permitted to practice with the princes.

Watching the boys practice seems to make Arya wonder how she's fare as a sword fighter but Jon tells her that she's too skinny and that she probably wouldn't even be able to lift a longsword let alone actually swing one. Arya seems annoyed at Jon for pointing this out but he musses her hair again and the moment passes.

 

Jon comments on the pride of House Lannister because Joffrey represents both his mother and father's houses on his coat of arms. Arya doesn't see what's so wrong with Joffrey representing his mother's house as well and tells Jon that women are important too.

Over in the courtyard Prince Tommen is taking a beating by Bran and when he falls to the ground he can't get back up again because he has so much padding on. He kind of rolls around struggling for a little while like a turtle on its back until Ser Rodrik helps yank him to his feet. The men get a kick out of Bran's enthusiasm and the yard is filled with laughter.

 

Ser Rodrik wants to know if Robb and Joffrey want to have another go but Joffrey, who didn't get in too many hits with Robb last time, says that he doesn't want to fight unless they use sharp steel blades. Ser Rodrik tells Joffrey that it isn't going to happen and Sandor Clegane makes it seem like Ser Rodrik is being at training them. Clegane even tries to pull the royal card by saying that Ser Rodrik isn't anybody to tell the Crown Prince whether or not he can practice with live steel but Ser Rodrik doesn't give two fucks about Joffrey's royal status and firmly tells Clegane that they'll be able to practice with live steel when they are of proper age. Clegane says that he killed a man by the time he was twelve and that Robb at fourteen should be old enough to handle practicing with live steel. Joffrey tries to make it seem like Robb is a child who isn't old enough to fight him and gets some sycophantic laughter from the Lannister and Baratheon men who are with him. Robb is pissed that he isn't being allowed to fight Joffrey and seems confidant that he'd be able to kick his ass. Joffrey tells Tommen it's time to go and makes another jab about Robb and the rest being mere children. Robb is full on cursing at this point and actually needs to be held back by Theon.

 

The fighting is over for the day and Jon tells Arya that she'd better get back to her room before she gets in even more trouble.

“You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You’ll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.”

 

Arya isn't amused and talks again about how unfair life is. Jon replies that "nothing is fair" and messes up her hair again before he leaves with Ghost trailing behind him. Nymeria actually makes to follow Ghost but then stops and returns to Arya once she realizes that Arya isn't going with them.

 

When Arya gets back to her room she's in even more trouble than she'd anticipated and she knows this because not only is Septa Mordane waiting there for her, but so is her mother Catelyn.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

Seeing how much the Cassels and Pooles were a part of the Starks and knowing what's in store for those families is pretty tough. I wonder what became of Beth Cassel. If her fate is stated at some point during one of the books I have since forgotten.

 

Rodrik really is a badass. He and Cortenay Penrose are my two favorite "minor" badasses of the story. The roles of the two characters are small but damn are they both memorable for me. I love how Joffrey's princely status means absolutely nothing to him. I was honestly a little surprised at how Sandor Clegane comes across here. Killing a man at twelve sounds totally in line with his character but trying to use royal blood as an excuse for why this two kids should start hacking away at each other not to mention he probably knows what a little weakling Joffrey is--I mean, what, does this guy want to be out of a job or something? Imagine if Joffrey had lost a couple of fingers or something what Cersei would have to say about Clegane just standing by and watching it happen. 

 

I love the little detail of Arya being fearful that she too might be a bastard because she and Jon look so much alike. I felt bad about the Arya Horseface stuff too. Jeyne was a right little Mean Girl, wasn't she? She's basically a Gretchen/Regina hybrid. I still feel desperately sorry for her though when I think of what's going to come. I wonder what Arya would think about everything that Jeyne has been through

with Ramsay and the whole impersonation thing? My guess is that Arya's sympathy would be limited to nonexistent but I'd like to be wrong.

 

I wish that we could have seen some of Robb and Joffrey fighting just to get an idea of whether or not Joffrey could have eventually been a decent swordsman or not. Robb says Joffrey got in a few hits which frankly surprised me as I basically imagine Joffrey shrinking back in fear from any sort of attack even if it's only with a blunted tourney sword or hell, even a wooden one. Robb is clearly the better swordsman but he's also older than Joffrey so maybe Joffrey was capable enough and maybe could have even been a great fighter if he'd had the discipline, work ethic, and weren't so hampered by the idea that he's supposedly above everybody else. His royal status will always protect him in a way and keep him from feeling as though he has to do his own fighting. It's so odd to me that Joffrey wouldn't be more proactive in trying to be a strong warrior like Robert or Jaime. He has all of these examples of strong men around him, men who are strong in a variety of fields not just with physical fighting, yet it seems like Joffrey is a weak disappointment in every area of his life with the exception of his physical appearance. He's rich, good looking, and about as protected as they come so it's like he doesn't feel like he has to try or something.

 

It's funny that Cersei

remarks at one point that Joffrey was more of a fighter than Tommen (she doesn't mean physical fighter) because I see Tommen as the brother who has spirit and is willing to try hard and practice. Tommen dusting himself off and wanting to try again in ACoK--

I got a similar vibe in the above scene and am guessing that Bran knocked Tommen on his ass more than once that day.  

 

I bristled just as Arya did when Sansa made it seem like Jon is jealous of Joffrey when in reality Jon was probably just calling it as he sees it. 

 

Septa Mordane is kind of mean. I don't remember her being unlikeable on the show but the way that she was going off on Arya's stitches while saying nothing critical about Myrcella's just seemed unnecessary. I'm not suggesting that she should have criticized Myrcella but why criticize Arya at all that day? Why not just have her start over or maybe not even mention it at all? Why reduce the poor girl to tears? I remember on the show feeling all sad for Septa Mordane when Sansa began to turn on her and be snotty and I wonder if I'm going to feel the same way during the reread? 

 

Love the way Ghost affectionately nips at Nymeria's ear.

My controversial prediction? I think that Ghost and Nymeria will one day mate. I don't think that Jon/Arya will ever happen but Ghost/Nymeria? I can totally see GRRM going there.  

[Lady S.]

I bristled just as Arya did when Sansa made it seem like Jon is jealous of Joffrey when in reality Jon was probably just calling it as he sees it.

He was when he later told Arya Joffrey was truly a little shit, not so much by saying Joff looks like a girl. Arya doesn't even seem to know Joff is a shit at that point, if she hopes for his sake he has a good steward because Sansa's bad at math. Commenting on Joffrey's looks reminded me of his judgement that Myrcella was insipid and Robb was too stupid to notice. That Robb/Myrcella thought definitely spoke to envy and imo showed his enjoyment of being a bastard stuck at the back to be unreliable narration. All that said, the way Sansa dismissed his opinion and corrected Arya was certainly snotty. (Though I don't think she ever had anything against Jon the way Catelyn did, it's obvious where this attitude comes from. It's not a matter of loving a motherless child imo, what Cat needed to do was at least give him the same bare decency she showed Theon, whom she never had much regard for. A world of difference could have been made if she just ignored Jon's presence more instead of making it her business to be sure her children never forgot their superior station and deliberately letting Jon know how she felt.) I think Sansa's idealization of Joff and attitude toward Arya are really more at work here. I doubt Sansa would give any more weight to Robb's dislike of Joffrey at this stage, and I also doubt she makes it a point to correct Bran when he says brother instead of half-brother.

 

Yes, the book never paints a good picture of Septa Mordane. I hold her to blame for the Stark sisters' conflict more than anyone. It's not hard to see why Arya would think Sansa has everything or why Sansa would needlessly correct Arya about Jon when Septa Mordane favors Sansa and only has criticism for Arya. Here, Arya was trying to join in with Sansa and her friends until that quickly went nowhere. I also have to wonder if Septa Mordane is aware of Jeyne Poole's bullying and ignoring it as harmless teasing. Sansa certainly must be aware and ignoring it. Spolier alert: pretty sure Sansa turning her snottiness on Mordane was a show-only thing. ETA: Now I wonder if Arya running out of the sewing lesson crying was meant to parallel Jon running out of the feast crying with unfairness of life being at the heart of their strong bond. 

Edited April 8, 2015 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

SUMMARY

 

BRAN II

 

The royal hunt is on and even Joffrey and Robb get to go in addition to Theon, Tyrion, Rodrik, Jory, and of course Robert and Ned; Bran and the rest of his siblings including Jon have to stay behind.

 

Bran notices that Jon has been moody lately and feels that Jon seems to be angry at everything lately. The family now know about Jon's plan to join the Night's Watch and Bran thinks it's exciting that Jon is going to get to go to the Wall with their Uncle Benjen. Bran is also excited that he's going to get to go to King's Landing and live in the castle that was built by the Dragonlords.

 

We find out that Bran really wants to be a Knight of the Kingsguard someday and that historically men of the Kingsguard are among the finest swordsmen in all of the realm. Men of the Kingsguard do not marry or have children but the thought of this doesn't seem to trouble Bran.

Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another’s swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

 

Three members of the Kingsguard have come with the King to Winterfell but Robb has told Bran that Jaime Lannister shouldn't count due to the fact that he killed the Mad King Aerys years ago. Bran thinks that Jaime looks the most like the knights from stories that he's heard but is most looking forward to meeting the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard Ser Barristan Selmy who is said to be the best swordsman in the realm. (Selmy didn't go with the King to Winterfell so this is one of the things that Bran is looking forward to most when he gets to King's Landing.) Bran is so excited that he's been marking off the days on his calendar and in general seems ready to experience an adventure.

 

Now that the day for their departure is rapidly approaching Bran is feeling mixed emotions and is sad to leave the only home he's ever known. He wants to start saying goodbye to people but it feels like too much for him emotionally and he gets teary when he tries to say goodbye to his pony. He quickly leaves the stables so that Hodor and others can't see him cry and runs over to the godswood where he spends some time trying to teach his direwolf to fetch.

 

It turns out that Bran's direwolf is the only one that still doesn't have a name. Robb's wolf is named Grey Wind because of how fast he is, Sansa has named hers Lady, Arya's is Nymeria, Rickon's is Shaggydog (which Bran thinks sounds rather silly), and Jon's is named Ghost. Bran wishes that he'd thought of the name Ghost first even if it doesn't fit since his direwolf isn't white like Jon's is. For two weeks Bran has been trying to come up with a name but so far nothing sounds right to him.

 

After playing a little while longer with his direwolf, Bran decides that he's bored and decides to go climbing instead thinking that this will be his last chance to climb here for quite some time. Bran runs through the godswood and passes the heart tree and he momentarily thinks to himself that the heart tree has always made him feel uneasy; he thinks it's weird that the tree has eyes not to mention the leaves shaped like hands.

 

Bran tells his direwolf to stay put and begins to climb. The direwolf stays where he's told but he also begins to howl as Bran starts to climb. Bran tells his wolf to be quiet and continues to climb, but the direwolf doesn't stop howling until Bran climbs onto the roof of the armory and is out of sight. Bran briefly thinks that his direwolf is scolding him the way his mother might.

 

On the rooftops Bran can see all of Winterfell and he stands there for a moment to take it all in. He thinks to himself that being high up there makes him feel as though he's the lord of the castle in a way that "even Robb would never know." Bran also knows about secret passages in the castle that he thinks even Maester Luwin might not be aware of.

 

Catelyn has always been worried that Bran will one day fall from climbing and has repeatedly asked him not to do it. One time she even gets him to promise not to and he lasts about two weeks before cracking and breaking his word. His punishment is to go to the godswood for an entire day in order to "cleanse" himself. When Ned goes to find him hours later Bran is found fast asleep in the tallest sentinel he could find. Ned can't help but be amused by this and basically tells him that he can climb but that he should try to keep Catelyn from seeing him at it.

 

Bran's favorite place to climb up is the Broken Tower, the highest tower in Winterfell. Nobody ever goes there any more and Bran sort of thinks of it as one of his secret places. As Bran continues to climb and goes past gargoyle after gargoyle he suddenly hears voices. He's so startled that there are people where he hadn't been expecting any that he almost loses his grip.

 

A man and a woman are talking and the woman is telling the man that he should be the new Hand of the King. The man tells the woman that he isn't interested and says there would be too much work involved.

 

Bran keeps listening and isn't sure if he should continue to go where he was going because the people who are speaking might end up seeing him.

 

A woman tells a man that they're in danger and that Robert loves Ned like a brother. The man replies that Robert can't stand his brothers so that comment doesn't really mean all that much to him. The woman tells the man not to be stupid and insists that Robert will listen to Ned in a way that he doesn't listen to his two biological brothers. The woman is surprised that Ned didn't refuse the offer of Hand and thinks that she should have insisted on telling Robert to name the man she's talking to as the Hand rather than Ned. The man thinks they should be thankful that Robert didn't name somebody like Stannis or Littlfinger and it's at this point that Bran realizes that the people he's been listening to have been talking about Ned. Bran wants to hear more.

 

The woman says that they'll have to watch Ned carefully. The man responds that he'd rather watch the woman and asks her to come back to him. The woman continues to talk about the danger they're in and says that the only reason that Ned accepted the position as Hand is to move against them. The man thinks there are any number of reasons that aren't to do with them as far as why Ned accepted the position and is willing to leave his seat of power in the North.

 

Bran wants to get closer but seems to think that he won't be able to manage it without being seen.

 

The woman wonders why Lysa Arryn isn't at Winterfell and seems to know what sort of accusations Lysa would be willing to make about them. The man tells her that she worries too much and that Lysa Arryn is a "frightened cow" anyway. He says if she really knew anything then she'd have already told Robert. The woman thinks that now that Lysa and her son are safe at the Eyrie that she might be willing to say something to hurt them but the man still seems to think that the woman is fretting over nothing.

 

The man wonders if Lysa has some proof of something foul but the woman doesn't think Robert will need proof because he doesn't love her and would probably be happy to have a reason to believe any accusation of Lysa's. The man asks his "sweet sister" whose fault it is that Robert has no love for her and at this point it's pretty clear that the people that Bran is eavesdropping on are none other than Queen Cersei and her twin brother Ser Jaime Lannister, but Bran still doesn't know the identity of the voices.

 

Bran thinks to himself that this conversation is definitely not meant for his ears but still wants to listen.

 

Cersei wonders about what will happen when Robert dies and Joffrey takes the throne and thinks that they will all be safer once this happens. Cersei feels that with Ned at Robert's side he'll be even more inclined to set Cersei aside and find some woman who reminds him more of Lyanna Stark. She claims that Robert is still in love with the memory of the long dead sixteen year old Stark girl and Bran really starts to get freaked out when he hears this. He wants to turn around and go back but he also thinks it's important to figure out who's talking.

 

Jaime tells Cersei that she needs to stop worrying and enjoy herself a little. Cersei tells Jaime to stop doing what he's doing and he tells her he's bored with their conversation and wants her to come over to him and be quiet. Bran finally decides that he's going to look in the window and sees Jaime and Cersei having sex. At first he thinks that they're wrestling and that Jaime might even be hurting Cersei. Bran is confused and scared and instinctively knows that he shouldn't continue to watch but doesn't seem to know what the best thing is to do. He sees Cersei's face and recognizes her.

 

Once Bran recognizes her it seems that he makes some sort of noise because Cersei's eyes fly open and she screams and pushes Jaime away from her. Bran tries to lift himself up but ends up slipping and he's suddenly hanging on to the ledge with only one hand. When he looks up he sees Jaime and Cersei staring back down at him. He can't help but notices how much they look alike.

 

Cersei hisses at Jaime that Bran saw them and Jaime says that he knows. He tells Bran to take his hand before he falls. Bran grab on to Jaime's arm and Jaime lifts him onto the ledge. Cersei wants to know what the hell Jaime thinks he's doing but Jaime ignores her and asks Bran how old he is. Bran is relieved that Jaime has helped him to safety and lets go of Jaime's arm. He tells Jaime that he's seven.

 

Jaime looks over at Cersei and says, "The things I do for love" and with that shoves Bran out of the window. Bran screams and tries to grab on to something but it's impossible and he falls all the way down to the courtyard.

 

His direwolf begins to howl in the background.

[InsertWordHere]

Seeing how much the Cassels and Pooles were a part of the Starks and knowing what's in store for those families is pretty tough. I wonder what became of Beth Cassel. If her fate is stated at some point during one of the books I have since forgotten.

Her fate isn't stated exactly, but it's possible she was

taken to the Dreadfort along with Nan and the other Winterfell residents

[WearyTraveler]

This is the first chapter where the one of the direwolves demonstrates some special abilities, such as knowing when danger is near their Stark and knowing when something bad's happened to them, even if they can't see it.  It's the first hint that magic / supernatural influences are present in the story south of The Wall, too.  Later on in the series the other direwolves will show these traits more emphatically.  It can't be said enough, the Starks should never, ever, be away from their wolves.

 

When we got the first closer look at Sansa in the previous chapter I instantly disliked her for being naive almost to the point of stupidity and I immediately sided with Arya, but, later on, when Sansa loses her wolf, I thought that spelled disaster for her, and felt worried. It's a feeling I can't still shake.  I feel that of all the Stark children Sansa is the most vulnerable and the most in danger, because she doesn't have her wolf.  Arya doesn't lose Nymeria completely, they are just separated, so, I feel like as long as Nymeria is running around somewhere, there's hope for Arya.

 

That said, Bran seems to be the only Stark that understands and takes advantage of this connection to the direwolves.  Maybe Rickon does too but it's hard to tell because we have never got a chapter from his POV.  Summer is largely responsible for keeping Bran alive from this point forward.  So, I always feel like grabbing and shaking the Starks who voluntarily separate from their wolves.  Nothing good ever comes out of that.

 

This is the first mention of Barristan The Bold, too.  I love that Martin includes these little things about characters that will later figure more prominently in the story, it makes the re-reads very enjoyable.

 

It's interesting that Bran thinks of Nan's story about crows pecking a boy's eyes out just before his "accident", given the dreams he will have in his next chapters.  I think that we, as readers, need to pay more attention to Nan's stories.  In the first Bran chapter they seem far-fetched and more like cautionary fairy tales / urban legends; but we later see the kernels of truth in them

 

I also loved the little part about Ned and his philosophy when it comes to rearing the children.  At first he discourages dangerous activities, but, when he sees that the activity is a passion of that child, something he/she loves completely, he lets them be and explore it.  And it's not only because Bran is a boy, as we'll see him do it with Arya later in this book, when he discovers Needle.  This is just one of the reasons I so love Ned.

 

This chapter is where we discover the twincest and there's some clever misdirection from Martin here in the conversation we hear between the siblings.  It seems to support Lysa's message that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn, which, coupled with Jaimie's despicable actions "for love" puts us on a path to hate the Lannisters and be suspicious of all their actions.  Not that they are not terrible people, but we do later find out that it was 

Littlefinger who engineered the whole thing with Jon Arryn and manipulated Lysa into writing that message

 

In this chapter we also see how the sexual interaction works between Jaimie and Cersei, with her saying "no" but apparently not meaning it.  It seems to be how they operate on  a regular basis and makes their sex scene in 

The Sept of Baelor less "rapey"

.  Perhaps this kind of writing is what led to the clusterfuck that was that scene on the show.  I wonder.  I don't mind Martin's need for worldbuilding, or travel /food porn, but his writing choices here leave a bad taste in my mouth, I have to admit.

 

It's interesting that in this chapter we discover Jaimie's three biggest sins: killing Aerys, sleeping with Cersei, and throwing Bran out the window.  And it's this last sin the one we can't forgive.  Even this early on in the series, before we find out about how crazy Aerys was and exactly why Jaimie killed him, pushing Bran out of the window feels like such a horrible, despicable act that it takes a lot of work to redeem Jaimie, and I'm not sure all the character growth and the losses he's had have accomplished any of that.  Not even partially. We're only on Bran's second chapter and his fall has a great emotional impact.  I felt shocked, sad, sorry....  That is one the things that makes Martin such a good writer, I think.  The man has his faults, off course, but the emotional connections he builds between the readers and the characters are pretty powerful.

 

It's quite a feat to top the very big shock of the twincest, and only a few lines later, BOOM!, Bran is flying out the window.  I think this was the first warning to buckle our seat belts because this ride is bumpy.

Edited April 10, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Holmbo]

Naw I didn't have time to post my thoughts on the Arya chapter. I've been abroad during easter so I didn't have much internet access.

Ok so Bran.

Favorite thing The description of the construction of Winterfell. How it's all on different levels and with several layers of buildings. Sounds really cool.

Prediction Jaime will end up lord commander at the wall. It's clear already in this chapter that he doesn't care about the game and only participates because Cersei makes him. He just wants to be a warrior still I think.

what if Bran wasn't caught and made it down to the ground unharmed. He probably would have told Ned but I'm not sure what would have come of it. It's a pretty crazy accusations and it's Bran's word against Jaime and Cersei. If Ned even believes him in the first place.

I agree with you WT that a reread of this serie is really rewarding because you notice mentions of things that you weren't introduced to yet at the time.

Also that Jaime and Cersei's sex life is fucked up. Without knowing the tone of the dialogue is impossible to say what's consensual and not with them. I'm thinking for Cersei maybe sex is always an exchange of favors. That's not to say she can't enjoy it but maybe pleasure is not her motivation.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Holmbo

[Avaleigh]

Holmbo, I apologize if I moved on to the next chapter too quickly. I'd still like to know your thoughts on Arya I. 

 

Later in the series Cersei thinks to herself that sex has only ever been good with Jaime so I feel like this is just sort of a game that they play. She talks to Taena Merryweather about it a bit although Taena doesn't officially know that Cersei is thinking of Jaime when she makes her comments. 

 

My what if is what if Cersei and Jaime had indeed tried to frighten Bran into silence. What would they have said to him that would make them feel safe enough to trust that he won't go immediately to Ned with what he's seen? 

 

Another what if? What if Bran had died? Would Ned still have gone on to KL or would this have given him an out that Robert couldn't honorably get around? 

 

I'm curious as to why Robert wouldn't want Tywin as Hand to do all of the hard work? Even later when Robert thinks that if Ned doesn't want the job then he'll give it to Jaime instead--why isn't Tywin on his list of candidates considering what a good job he did in the past? 

 

Back to this chapter, I felt kind of bad to read that Jon has been in a bad mood lately and has apparently not been fun to be around. When Bran makes the comment about how he didn't look all that hard for Jon it almost sounds like Jon is taking out his frustrations on others and I don't remember getting that vibe before. 

 

I also wonder why it took Bran so long to come up with a name. 

 

Reading all of Bran's excitement about going to King's Landing made me sad knowing what was to come. He's so active and energetic and to know that he'll never be able to be that way again is heartbreaking. 

 

I hate that Jaime did it and don't think it should have happened but I understand that Jaime felt that he was saving five lives in making that gesture so for me I haven't had issues with a redemption arc for Jaime's character. 

 

I also don't see killing the Mad King as any sort of great "sin". He did the world a favor as far as I'm concerned. I hope Dany learns that one day.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Lady S.]

I think Jaime/Cersei do have something of a rape-fantasy vibe that D&D took to the next level. Not so much here where she's moaning while saying no, but the

altar-sex scene where she only consents after his dick is out and he's ripping her clothes off, and the wording of the convo with Taena is what I really found off-putting.

But that's getting ahead of ourselves, but GRRM's writing of Jaime passion as being something he can't control and Cersei always giving in because deep down she's always hot for him too is troubling and reminds me of a bad romance novel or that scene between Rhett and Scarlett in Gone with the Wind. How do we know it's possible for them to ever have negotiated consent where Jaime only goes forward because Cersei's agreed or else backs off when she's not in the mood? Cersei enjoys sex with Jaime but I don't think of her as being that sexual, so their always being in sync whenever Jaime's horny reads like some male nonsense from a writer who supposedly has a great understanding of women.

 

Jaime asking Cersei whose fault it is that Robert doesn't love her confirms to me that he has no clue of the abuse in the marriage. I see his first moment with Cersei after Robert asks to see Lyanna as saying "chill, babe, haven't we been waiting for that fat drunk to give us some alone time?"

 

I wonder why Jaime asks Bran's age, I don't think it was because he thought almost 8 years was a good, full life. Just stalling as he goes from kingslayer to attempted childslayer, I guess. I don't really think he had much choice here, the scare Bran into silence option was something Cersei only came up with after Bran refused to die. My problem is that is that even you're forced to kill an innocent, doing so should still bother you after the fact. Jaime seems to succeed in ignoring it and inside of wishing things had gone differently, he's prepared to kill countless people just so he and Cersei don't have to hide their love. He's not happy about what he did to Bran and has one line about being ashamed of the things he's had to do to hide the beautiful incest, but Goldenhand the Just isn't suffering any guilt pangs about either and dwells a lot more on the kingslaying which he claims to be proud of.

 

I also loved the little part about Ned and his philosophy when it comes to rearing the children.  At first he discourages dangerous activities, but, when he sees that the activity is a passion of that child, something he/she loves completely, he lets them be and explore it.  And it's not only because Bran is a boy, as we'll see him do it with Arya later in this book, when he discovers Needle.  This is just one of the reasons I so love Ned.

 

My reaction was "way to undermine your wife and make her have to be the Bad Cop parent, Ned". Isn't wanting your son or daughter not to climb buildings trying to be a monkey a common sense thing? Even if Bran was surefooted as a spider monkey, couldn't he still fall climbing a broken tower where no one tends to the masonry? It also burns me that as good as he is with Arya, he completely drops the ball with Sansa, but all of that is later.

I'm curious as to why Robert wouldn't want Tywin as Hand to do all of the hard work? Even later when Robert thinks that if Ned doesn't want the job then he'll give it to Jaime instead--why isn't Tywin on his list of candidates considering what a good job he did in the past? 

 

Back to this chapter, I felt kind of bad to read that Jon has been in a bad mood lately and has apparently not been fun to be around. When Bran makes the comment about how he didn't look all that hard for Jon it almost sounds like Jon is taking out his frustrations on others and I don't remember getting that vibe before. 

I always took the Jaime comment as a joke, and anyway I don't think even crazy-in-love with Cersei early Jaime would be that much more amenable to being Hand. Could be Robert just doesn't want close contact with his father-in-law, who is highly unpleasant, but wanting to give Sweetrobin to Tywin indicates some level of trust, right? And since I think the Jaime was just about all Ned's griping about Jaime, I think it likely Tywin did have a good shot at the job even before Robert died. Also, interesting in this scene that Cersei admits she was trying to essentially make Sweetrobin Tywin's hostage, I wonder if that happened before or after Jon Arryn was conveniently removed from her way.

 

Pun intended, book Jon is one moody bastard. Wait til Jon III or maybe Tyrion II.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Lady S.

[Constantinople]

My reaction was "way to undermine your wife and make her have to be the Bad Cop parent, Ned". Isn't wanting your son or daughter not to climb buildings trying to be a monkey a common sense thing? Even if Bran was surefooted as a spider monkey, couldn't he still fall climbing a broken tower where no one tends to the masonry?

You can't baby them forever. After all, winter is coming (life sucks).

Besides, Catelyn's helicopter parenting caused more problems than it solved.

[Lady S.]

I doubt that was Ned's reaction when they found Bran flat on the ground. 

[Holmbo]

Holmbo, I apologize if I moved on to the next chapter too quickly. I'd still like to know your thoughts on Arya I.

....

I'm curious as to why Robert wouldn't want Tywin as Hand to do all of the hard work? Even later when Robert thinks that if Ned doesn't want the job then he'll give it to Jaime instead--why isn't Tywin on his list of candidates considering what a good job he did in the past?

.

No worries the show must go on. I wouldn't expect everyone to adhere to my traveling schedule.

I didn't even think about Tywin as a possible hand when I did my what-if of Ned refusing Robert. No one mentions it though at all. Maybe it's because Tywin was hand to the mad king. But Robert kept his small council (at least part of it) and he married the hands daughter.

As for Jaime pushing Bran out the window I can see his reasoning but his actions is what put him and cersei in danger in the first place. At the very least he should be eaten up by guilt afterward and never take such a risk again. But seemingly he just goes on without being affected by it at all.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Holmbo

[Lady S.]

Oh, prediction: I think Bran's unique knowledge of Winterfell's passages will come into play at some point.

Maybe if he really starts to communicate through the Weirnet.

And yeah I think Robert would have to let Ned stay if Bran died, at least I'd hope so. A what-if I wonder about is what if Ned took his ward south with him. Cersei wasn't really on top on things during her coup, so I think it likely the supposed value of Balon's last son would slip her mind and Theon would die with the rest of Ned's men. Which seems like a real problem-fixer going forward since his attack on Winterfell set off so many things.

[Brn2bwild]

With all this discussion of wards, was it ever explained why none of the Stark children were fostered by other houses?  If not Robb, maybe Bran would have been sent somewhere.  

 

I could see a situation where if Bran died, Eddard wouldn't go south, but Sansa would still go south as the Lannisters' ward.  

Whether she would have eventually become a hostage under that scenario remains anyone's guess.

[Holmbo]

With all this discussion of wards, was it ever explained why none of the Stark children were fostered by other houses? If not Robb, maybe Bran would have been sent somewhere.

]

I was wondering about that too. It's really hard to find a explanation for that which works consistently. I was thinking maybe the oldest son wasn't traditionally fostered away and Bran would have been sent off when he was older. But we learn later that Jaime was sent to be a squire at lord krakenhall. Maybe it's because of what happened to Ned's family when he was away that made him want to keep all his family together.

[Constantinople]

Prediction Jaime will end up lord commander at the wall. It's clear already in this chapter that he doesn't care about the game and only participates because Cersei makes him. He just wants to be a warrior still I think.

To become Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, Jaime would have to join the Night's Watch.

Would he want to risk shoveling shit, or doing whatever role would be assigned to him when he first joined?

 

 

I was wondering about that too. It's really hard to find a explanation for that which works consistently. I was thinking maybe the oldest son wasn't traditionally fostered away and Bran would have been sent off when he was older. But we learn later that Jaime was sent to be a squire at lord krakenhall. Maybe it's because of what happened to Ned's family when he was away that made him want to keep all his family together.

Was Tywin serving as Hand when Jaime was sent to be a squire?

If so, perhaps Tywin felt he didn't have the time.

[Avaleigh]

SUMMARY 

 

TYRION I

 

A direwolf is howling and it gives Tyrion the creeps. He's been reading all night long at the library in Winterfell and even though he hasn't slept he decides to head down to breakfast and begin his day.

 

As Tyrion is heading down the stairs he can hear the men training down in the yard and hears Sandor Clegane complaining about how long it's taking for Bran to die. He wishes that Bran would just get on with it already. Joffrey is with Sandor and talks about how the howling of the direwolf has made it difficult for him to sleep. Clegane offers to silence the direwolf if it would please the prince and Joffrey for his part seems delighted at the notion thinking it would be appropriate to "send a dog to kill a dog". 

 

At this point Tyrion decides to interject and says that the Starks will sort of notice if they're missing a direwolf and then cracks that the Starks at least can count past six which is more than he can say for Joffrey. Joffrey seems slightly embarrassed and blushes but finds himself laughing at Tyrion moments later when Clegane begins to mock Tyrion by pretending that he can hear him but not see him. Tyrion isn't in the mood to be trifled with today and tells Joffrey that it's past time he sent Lord and and Lady Stark some words of comfort to show his respect for the situation regarding Bran. 

 

Joffrey wants to know what good his words will do the Starks and Tyrion admits that they won't do any good but things like this are expected of princes so Joffrey should make it right since his absence as far as paying his respects has already been commented on. Joffrey doesn't give a fuck though and makes it plain that he doesn't care about Bran and he doesn't really want to be around "wailing women". Tyrion is sick of Joffrey now so he slaps him in his face and tells him that he'll do it again if he says another word. Joffrey immediately says that he's going to tell his mother what Tyrion has done so Tyrion slaps him again and tells him that he can go ahead and tell his mother, but before he does that he's going to go and tell the Starks that he's sorry about Bran and see if there's anything that he can do to be of service. Seeming as though he's about to cry, Joffrey nods to Tyrion that he will and then runs out of the yard.

 

As they watch Joffrey run away, Clegane cautions Tyrion that Joffrey will remember this but Tyrion doesn't seem worried and admits that he hopes Joffrey will indeed remember. Tyrion then asks Clegane where he might find Jaime and Clegane tells Tyrion that Jaime is having breakfast with the Queen. 

 

Tyrion finds Jaime, Cersei, and the children having breakfast in the Guest House and goes to join them. Tyrion asks if Robert is still in bed and Cersei coldly replies that the King is with Lord Eddard at present and mentions that the King is upset about Bran's fall. Jaime sort of sarcastically makes a comment about Robert having a big heart but during this exchange Tyrion also makes it clear that Jaime was the only person who has been affectionate with him during his life and that he's basically willing to forgive this kind of insensitivity. Indeed he makes it seem as though he is willing to forgive Jaime for almost anything.

 

Tyrion orders his breakfast from a servant including burned bacon and notes how twin-like Jaime and Cersei are this morning down to their hair and their manner of dress. Prince Tommen wants to know if Tyrion has any news of Bran and Tyrion tells them all that there is no change. Tommen says that he doesn't want Bran to die and Tyrion thinks for a moment about what a sweet boy he is.

 

Jaime muses about how Ned had a brother named Brandon who was murdered by the Targaryens and wonders if Bran has an unlucky name. Tyrion doesn't think the name is all that unlucky and Cersei wants to know what Tyrion means by this. Tyrion tells her that Tommen may very well get his wish because he's heard that the maester says that Bran might live. Myrcella too is happy to hear this but Tyrion also catches the Look that is exchanged between Jaime and Cersei upon hearing this news and it's clear that he knows something is up. 

 

Cersei says that it's no mercy for the gods to allow a child to linger in pain the way Bran is and Jaime wants to know what the maester said exactly. Tyrion says that the maester thinks that if Bran were to die that it would have happened already. Myrcella asks if Bran will get better one day and Tyrion briefly reflects that Myrcella has all of Cersei's beauty without having her nature. 

 

Tyrion admits to the children that Bran's back is broken and that he'll never walk again. Cersei wants to know if it's likely for Bran to wake up again and Tyrion basically says that it's up to the gods. He also makes a comment about how he thinks that Bran is being kept alive because of his direwolf and Cersei says that she thinks direwolves are unnatural creatures and goes on to insist that she won't have any direwolves accompany them when they head back south. Jaime tells Cersei that she'll have a hard time stopping the direwolves since they follow the girls around everywhere. Cersei has no reply. 

 

Tyrion wants to know if they'll all be leaving soon and Cersei replies that they won't be leaving soon enough. She then wants to know what Tyrion's plans are and he tells her that he plans on visiting the famous Wall that everyone has heard so much about. Jaime seems amused and tells Tyrion that he hopes that he isn't going to take the black and Tyrion assures him that there's no way in hell that he could ever be celibate. He just wants to visit the Wall and have a chance to take a piss off of the edge of the world. Cersei bristles at Tyrion's vulgarity and takes her children away so that they don't have to hear Tyrion's filthy mouth. 

 

Jaime tells Tyrion that he doesn't think Ned will want to leave Winterfell now considering what has happened with Bran but Tyrion thinks that Robert will insist and that Ned will basically have to obey especially since there really isn't anything that Ned can do for Bran anyway. Jaime darkly says that Ned could end his son's torment if he wanted to and thinks that it would be a mercy. Tyrion tells Jaime that he'd better not tell Ned that and Jaime goes on to talk about how Bran will be nothing more than a cripple, a "grotesque" and that Jaime himself would prefer to have a good, clean death any day of the week. Tyrion begs to differ and points out that while death is final, life, even if one is a cripple, is full of possibilities. 

 

Jaime can't help but smile at Tyrion's take on Bran's situation and affectionately tells Tyrion that he's a perverse little Imp. Tyrion tells Jaime that he hopes Bran wakes up and says that he looks forward to hearing what Bran might have to say. Jaime's smile immediately vanishes and he tells Tyrion that there are times when he wonders whose side Tyrion is really on. 

 

Tyrion’s mouth was full of bread and fish. He took a swallow of strong black beer to wash it all down, and grinned up wolfishly at Jaime, “Why, Jaime, my sweet brother,” he said, “you wound me. You know how much I love my family.”

 

Edited April 12, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Constantinople]

SUMMARY 

 

TYRION I

 

A direwolf is howling and it gives Tyrion the creeps.

Proof that Sansa and Tyrion don't belong together.

 

He's been reading all night long at the library in Winterfell and even though he hasn't slept he decides to head down to breakfast and begin his day.

I always thought it was interesting that the very first thing mentioned in Tyrion's first POV was that he had been reading all night long.

 

As this chapter came after the Bran II chatper, it seems clear, particularly in retrospect, that Tyrion knows what's going on between Jaime and Cersei.

 

ETA: Avaleigh - Thank you for writing-up the chapter summaries and posting them.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Constantinople

[Lady S.]

I was wondering about that too. It's really hard to find a explanation for that which works consistently. I was thinking maybe the oldest son wasn't traditionally fostered away and Bran would have been sent off when he was older. But we learn later that Jaime was sent to be a squire at lord krakenhall. Maybe it's because of what happened to Ned's family when he was away that made him want to keep all his family together.

The late Brandon Stark

was fostered in Barrowton, according to Lady Dustin

. I think the answer here goes back to R+L=J, Ned felt he had to honor whatever promise by raising Jon personally, and he couldn't very well have Robb fostered while keeping Jon at Winterfell. I expect the same would go for Bran and Rickon, but they were still young enough to stay home anyway.

 

During all the terrible long years of his childhood, only Jaime had ever shown him the smallest measure of affection or respect, and for that Tyrion was willing to forgive him most anything.

 

Almost anything? I find this line so sad in retrospect. Tyrion had Jaime on such a high pedestal as the only source of unwavering familial warmth, that that hidden lie made it crash down hard. Without parents to love him, his big brother probably had to be enough for everyone in the immediate family.

 

I take it y'all are continuing this once s5 starts? It's so good to discuss a re-read without having to join w.org, so bravo, Avaleigh.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

So much of the dialogue from this chapter was used in the show so it's a bit jarring to read because I remember the show dialogue better so it's almost the same but not exactly.

 

The hound is such an ashole in the book

 

The boy is a long time dying. I wish he would be quicker about it.

Is it annoying for him to have to stay a few extra days in the north or what?
 

The late Brandon Stark was fostered in Barrowton, according to Lady Dustin. I think the answer here goes back to R+L=J, Ned felt he had to honor whatever promise by raising Jon personally, and he couldn't very well have Robb fostered while keeping Jon at Winterfell. I expect the same would go for Bran and Rickon, but they were still young enough to stay home anyway.

 

 

During all the terrible long years of his childhood, only Jaime had ever shown him the smallest measure of affection or respect, and for that Tyrion was willing to forgive him most anything.

 

Almost anything? I find this line so sad in retrospect. Tyrion had Jaime on such a high pedestal as the only source of unwavering familial warmth, that that hidden lie made it crash down hard. Without parents to love him, his big brother probably had to be enough for everyone in the immediate family.

 

Hmm yes the lack of fostering probably has something to do with the family history. Though it is weird that Stark hasn't taken in some bannermen sons to foster at Winterfell then to compensate in that way. I'm almost thinking it's maybe just decided by Martin to have all the Stark kids growing together.

 

I agree the Jaime quote is really sad. Specially since it's "smallest measure of affection or respect". Which implies that there where many times when he didn't but Tyrion forgave him for it.

Oh and my list:
Favorite thing: The line that Jaime says "Even if the boy lives, he will be a cripple. Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death." Good foreshadowing. I also like Tyrion's reply.

What if: Tyrion hadn't decided to go to the wall. He would head back with everyone and i presume take of for Casterly Rock. Cat wouldn't meet up with him at the inn so she'd get back to Winterfell without problems and I guess hide in the crypt with the other Starks ones Theon took the castle. Then she wouldn't let Bran or Rickon split up from her but would probably instead head for the home of the closest Stark bannerman. Also Jon wouldn't get Tyrion's advice at the wall but I think he would have figured it out eventually.

Prediction: I want to do some prediction on Tyrion's fate but I can't really decide on it. I'm torn between the two extremes of him either going mute and dying from Greyscale or him actually having a fairly ok ending where Sansa decides to stay married to him and fully commit to their marriage because she doesn't believe in marriage for love anymore and she's in a situation where it would be useful for her to be allied with him.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Holmbo

[ebevan91]

I plan to join you on this re-read once I get my books tomorrow. My old paperback AGoT lost like 75 pages so I ordered the big hardcovers of books 1-4 to match my hardcover ADwD. I swear if the cover for TWoW doesn't match the rest of them...

[Maximum Taco]

I plan to join you on this re-read once I get my books tomorrow. My old paperback AGoT lost like 75 pages so I ordered the big hardcovers of books 1-4 to match my hardcover ADwD. I swear if the cover for TWoW doesn't match the rest of them...

 

LOL, yeah that's why I'm getting all the paperbacks only for now.

 

I assume when ADOS comes out (if it ever does) they'll do a nice definitive boxset style release.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Maximum Taco