The Official Re-Read of Book 1: A Game Of Thrones

[Lady S.]

In some respects, Roose IS the best choice as Robb's deputy - you do want underlings who are prepared to put other viewpoints. Roose is clearly more of a strategist than Robb is (he's brave and great at leading his troops, but he's not so great at seeing the "Big Picture"). An the Boltons have been loyal lieutenants for ages, so it's not like Robb was necessarily stupid to trust him.

Loyal lieutenants, maybe, while the Starks are there to watch them. But in giving a man command of most of his troops and leaving him on the other side of a river for an indefinite period, I'd think he'd want someone he knew beyond any doubt was trustworthy and not a stranger who scared him. That seems more like a situation where keep your enemies close would apply. From the freedom of his position, Roose gained a base at Harrenhal which must have made his communications with Tywin and Walder that much easier, and ensured Jaime wasn't sent back to Riverrun when he was re-captured. And I don't see how he's a better war strategist, since his strategy is based around his own self-interest at the expense of the other Northerners, and his ill-gotten hold on Winterfell is unlikely to last. I don't really see why Catelyn thinks Robb needs the coldest cunning available for this command instead of just someone with a cooler head than the Greatjon. The previous Bran chapter had Rosse Bolton and Robett Glover both asking for commands, and think how much differently things could have gone if Glover had this command.

 

This chapter has our first mini-introduction of the baker of long pig pies, Lord Too Fat to Sit a Horse. I kinda like the description 

 

Roose is one of my consistent favorites of all the baddies and I like how the stage for him is already being set here.  He's creepy and scary as hell and he's already questioning the dumbassery that led to capturing and subsequently losing Tyrion, which is nice foreshadowing.

 

 

I think he's just questioning her losing Tyrion, there's not much reason to care about why she captured him when having him as hostage would actually be useful.

 

Looking at Lysa's parting words here in hindsight feels like another clue to her murderous nature. Trying to separate her from Sweetrobin was of her motives for killing Jon Arryn, and if she's said that to her sister, it's not very surprising she'd also turn on the sister's daughter. 

 

A little moment I found amusing was Theon getting kicked out after trying to stick around when everyone else left Catelyn alone with Robb. 

[Avaleigh]

I think this is a pretty important chapter as far as how it really gives us insight into the Lannister famiy dynamic. We also get some important Tywin info. All I could think about were the (two?) times when Tywin actually does smile.

Tywin's arrogance practically bleeds off of the page. I'm kind of glad that Robb is going to surprise him. He's basically already feeling as though he's King in all but name.

Tyrion is jealous of Jaime. It's understandable but I felt it. I also think Tyrion seems to look up to his father. He seemed to enjoy watching him in action.

I love Kevan here. He's nice to his nephew Tyrion, he isn't going to take any shit from these mountain people, he gives Tywin good advice that Tywin ignores. All in all he seems like a good, smart, brave, and (mostly) kind man.

Shagga is strong enough to break a sword in two over his knee like that?

I did laugh at the way he thinks anyone in that camp would give a shit about stealing his weak horse. He's looking around at the wealth of this group and he thinks these guys are going to jack him for his pony? I guess. Like giving a valet driver shit and threats so that he won't scratch your old chevy when the valet driver is routinely trusted with Bentleys and Lamborghinis.

I was surprised at Timmett's age. The Burned Men sound like an insane and blockheaded bunch.

Interesting though that women from the mountain clans have a say. Between that and the way they went d Tyrion around to make the moms laugh I feel like the average woman probably has it better in the Mountain clans than on the Iron Islands.

Chella and Conn both seem like decent people. Chella is certainly the smartest of the clan reps that Tyrion brought with him.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

I remember reading a discussion on the ASoIaF board about if Tyrion was misogynist or not. Some people said of course he is, while others argued he was only a classist, considering commoners to be worth less. But in this chapter he definitely put the clans women's ability to rule below the clans men. Though I guess most of the characters in the series would agree with him.

 

Also Tyrion is blaming the in keeper for letting him get captured? What did he expect her to do about it?

 

Those clans men were not very good at utilizing their reward. Last time we hear about them in the book they're just terrorizing farmers and travelers as they were before, but with better weapons.

[Avaleigh]

I thought Tyrion was pretty cold about the innkeeper too. What indeed did he expect her to do? Then he has that moment where he thinks about how the innkeeper made great ale and isn't that a pity, and it's like he's totally selfish when he comes around to thinking that it might have been better for her to have been kept alive after all.

The clans men don't seem too bright in general. Chella seems like an exception. I'm pretty sure that Shagga and Timmett have a handful of brain cells each and these are their leaders.Imagine how the average clan guy must be?

[benteen]

I thought Tyrion was pretty cold about the innkeeper too. What indeed did he expect her to do? Then he has that moment where he thinks about how the innkeeper made great ale and isn't that a pity, and it's like he's totally selfish when he comes around to thinking that it might have been better for her to have been kept alive after all.

The clans men don't seem too bright in general. Chella seems like an exception. I'm pretty sure that Shagga and Timmett have a handful of brain cells each and these are their leaders.Imagine how the average clan guy must be?

 

Agreed.  Understanding is in short supply in Westeros.

[Lady S.]

Aw, Tywin's introduction, I've been looking forward to this chapter. You get the essence of Tywin all at once, being an unreasonable dick to Tyrion about his capture, showing his Magnificent Bastard prowess by using reverse psychology to get the clansmen to fight for him, and grossly overestimating his own position and the easiness of crushing Robb. (If he actually thought there was a possibility of the Valemen coming too, then he really should have been more worried. Sweetrobin is definitely too young to go to war so they would have had a seasoned commander if Lysa had let them go.)

 

The mountain clansmen feel even more underdeveloped as a people than the Dothraki.

 

Tyrion is jealous of Jaime. It's understandable but I felt it. I also think Tyrion seems to look up to his father. He seemed to enjoy watching him in action.
 

Well, it'd be weirder if he wasn't jealous of Jaime, especially with Tywin trying to encourage conflict, it's just good they both love each other in spite of Tywin. Reminds me of Jon being jealous of Robb but them always having a great relationship.

 

Yeah, with that smile as Tywin recruits the clansmen, Tyrion definitely looks up to him. I also think his plan for war in the Vale isn't very far off from what Tywin's doing in the Riverlands. The clans attacking the Vale wouldn't really threaten the people Tyrion has a grudge against, Lysa and Sweetrobin would be pretty out of reach up in the Eyrie and likely wouldn't even care about chaos in their lands. Likewise, Tywin early war atrocities haven't personally threatened Catelyn, and only put her brother in danger because he was being gallantly foolhardy by trying to guard all the borders while going into battle against Jaime with only some of his bannermen instead of battening down the hatches at Riverrun. Maybe with sustained conflict the Vale lords would rebel and oust the Arryns or the clansmen would kill all the Vale lords who wanted to kill Tyrion, but that's some Tywin-style ruthless ambition and if Tyrion is really confident of victory there when he has only book knowledge of war, then he's also drawing on his father's hubris.

 

I remember reading a discussion on the ASoIaF board about if Tyrion was misogynist or not. Some people said of course he is, while others argued he was only a classist, considering commoners to be worth less. But in this chapter he definitely put the clans women's ability to rule below the clans men. Though I guess most of the characters in the series would agree with him.

 

Also Tyrion is blaming the in keeper for letting him get captured? What did he expect her to do about it?

 

For all that he likes to see himself as a champion of the underdog, it's fun to catch the moments where Tyrion thinks as only a noble would. His thoughts about the democratic nature of the mountain clans are a real modern values dissonance moment, but I doubt there's many noblemen who would understand and respect those ideals, though a proud Lannister probably has even less patience for them than most.

 

His callousness toward the innkeeper's death is really one of his worst moments for me in the early books. He seems more proud than anything of the destructive lengths Tywin has gone to as a reaction to his capture, and his only problem comes when he thinks it might have an adverse effect on the alcohol supply.

 

The other thing I like in this chapter is the confirmation of Beric Dondarrion's survival and early info on the Brotherhood without Banners.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

I actually don't have a problem with Tyrion dissing democracy. I think most people in such a society, including the common people, would be skeptical to everyone having a say in ruling. And the clansmen probably isn't the best advertisement for the benefits of such a system.

[John Potts]

I don't blame Tyrion for dissing democracy either - plenty of folks even in fairly modern times have claimed that the masses can't be trusted to vote responsibly, and they probably weren't all being purely self serving.

 

Lady S The clans attacking the Vale wouldn't really threaten the people Tyrion has a grudge against, Lysa and Sweetrobin would be pretty out of reach up in the Eyrie and likely wouldn't even care about chaos in their lands

 

 

Pretty much par for the course in Medieval warfare. If you could avoid it, you didn't attack your enemy's castle, you went after his lands and entice him out to fight (Robert describes how it would go if the Dothraki invaded - they wouldn't be able to take the castles but would devastate the countryside). Another reason why it sucked to be a peasant in Medieval times.

[Lady S.]

Right, but it's not like Tyrion could provoke Lysa and Sweetrobin to leave the Eyrie and fight, and I doubt the mountain clans would be the right people to "impregnate the bitch" as tv Bronn said. As Holmbo pointed out, the clans haven't really utilized their new armor and weapons to actually threaten the Vale power structure. Even if Tyrion was on hand to lead them instead of busy elsewhere, it would still be no mean feat since they're not an organized army.

[Avaleigh]

Sansa VI

Sansa is in the throne room attending Joffrey's first court session as King. The room looks different from the last time she was there, and apparently Joffrey or Cersei weren't fans of the hunting tapestries that Robert loved so much because they've been taken down and dumped over in a corner of the room.

There are about twenty lords in attendance and Sansa notes that when Robert was King there would have been closer to a hundred.

As a reward for being "good" Sansa has been permitted to go where she will within the Red Keep. It doesn't feel like much of a reward though since she now has guards following her wherever she goes. Cersei tries to dress the situation up by telling Sansa that it's an honor guard because she's Joffrey's betrothed, but Sansa doesn't feel honored in the slightest.

Sansa admits to herself that she isn't sure where she'd go if she were permitted to leave the castle anyway. She's been spending most of her time either praying in the sept or the godswood.

When Sansa goes to join the knights, lords, and ladies who are assembled, they all cold shoulder her and basically try to pretend she isn't there. Ser Dontos is a little slow on the uptake and starts to call out a greeting to Sansa so Ser Balon whispers something to Dontos to get him to turn away from her.

Sansa looks around the room and thinks about how many familiar faces are missing. She wonders where everyone has gone and with those present doing their best to ignore her, she thinks to herself that it's almost as though she's become a ghost.

Pycelle is dozing over at the table for the small council, and Varys and Littlefinger soon come in to join him. Littlefinger seems to be in a good mood and spends a few moments chatting happily with Ser Balon and Ser Dontos.

Sansa tells herself not to feel afraid and tries to take comfort in the idea that Joffrey and the Queen both love her.

A herald announces Joffrey and Cersei and, in addition to now being Queen Regent and Protector of the Realm, it seems that one of Cersei's titles is Light of the West.

Joffrey and Cersei are led in by Ser Barristan and all of the members of the Kingsguard are present save for Jaime Lannister.

Once Joffrey is seated he commands for Grand Maester Pycelle to read out his list of decrees.

Pycelle ends up reading of a list of names of the people the crown wants to come to King's Landing to swear fealty to Joffrey. Those who don't show will be stripped of their titles with their lands becoming property of the crown. All of the great houses are mentioned save the Greyjoys in addition to members of Houses Royce, Mallister, Blackwood, Bracken, and others.

The Starks are mentioned last including Bran, Arya, and Rickon. Sansa is shocked to hear Arya's name being included and thinks that this means her sister somehow made it safely back to Winterfell.

Pycelle then announces that the traitorous Eddard Stark is being replaced by Tywin Lannister as Hand. Also, the traitorous Stannis Baratheon will no longer have a seat on the small council, so the Light of the West is going to be taking over his spot. Pycelle adds that it is hoped that she will help Joffrey rule wisely.

There is some quiet muttering when it is announced that Cersei will be taking a seat on the small council but it quickly dies down.

The next announcement is that Janos Slynt has been given a lordship in addition to Harrenhal and all of the income it generates. Lord Slynt is even getting a seat on the small council.

This time the muttering isn't so quiet and the impression being given is that Slynt is jumped up commoner and there are other people in the room who feel they're more worthy of such honors than this frog faced man with the vulgar sigil.

The last matter of business Pycelle has to announce is regarding the safety of the King. Pycelle looks to Cersei now and she asks Ser Barristan to come forward.

Selmy goes to his Queen, bows, and tells her that he is hers to command.

Cersei tells Selmy to rise and remove his helm.

Selmy is confused but does as he's told. Cersei then delivers the news that Selmy's time in the Kingsguard is over.

At first Selmy doesn't quite get it so Janos put it to him bluntly that he's essentially been fired.

Selmy still seems like he can't quite believe it and brings up the fact that a Kingsguard's vows are for life and that only death is supposed to relieve one of his duty. Cersei asks Selmy if it's his death or the King's that would be needed?

Joffrey speaks up and tells Selmy that he let Robert die. He says that Selmy is too old to guard anyone anymore.

Sansa watched as the knight peered up at his new king. She had never seen him look his years before, yet now he did. "Your Grace," he said. "I was chosen for the White Swords in my twenty-third year. It was all I had ever dreamed, from the moment I first took sword in hand. I gave up all claim to my ancestral keep. The girl I was to wed married my cousin in my place, I had no need of land or sons, my life would be lived for the realm. Ser Gerold Hightower himself heard my vows . . . to ward the king with all my strength . . . to give my blood for his . . . I fought beside the White Bull and Prince Lewyn of Dorne . . . beside Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Before I served your father, I helped shield King Aerys, and his father Jaehaerys before him . . . three kings . .

Littlefinger points out that all of the kings that Selmy has been Kingsguard to have died.

Cersei tells Selmy that his time with the Kingsguard is over and that he's going to be replaced as Lord Commander by Jaime.

Once Selmy hears that he's being replaced by the Kingslayer of all people, he sounds angry and talks about how outrageous it is that the guy who is known for having once killed a king is being given the top job of protecting the King.

Cersei tells Selmy to watch his mouth regarding Jaime and reminds Selmy that Jaime is her blood as well as Joffrey's.

Varys tries to play nice and tells Selmy that he's going to get an awesome keep on Lannister lands by the sea where he'll have servants and everything to wait on him.

Selmy makes it clear that he's insulted by the offer and has no interest. He says he has every intention of dying a knight and as he says this, he takes off his cloak, and throws down his helm, and breastplate.

Littlefinger jokes about Selmy being a naked knight and everyone in the room starts to laugh with the exception of Sansa.

As Sansa is thinking about how she's feeling sorry for Selmy, he's so angry about everything that he ends up drawing his sword.

Sansa heard someone gasp. Ser Boros and Ser Meryn moved forward to confront him, but Ser Barristan froze them in place with a look that dripped contempt. "Have no fear, sers, your king is safe . . . no thanks to you. Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese. If you would serve under the Kingslayer, not a one of you is fit to wear the white." He flung his sword at the foot of the Iron Throne. "Here, boy. Melt it down and add it to the others, if you like. It will do you more good than the swords in the hands of these five. Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne."

After Selmy leaves, Joffrey starts going over everything that he said and is concerned about the way he mentions Stannis. He says he wants to have Selmy seized for question but at first no one moves. Joffrey repeats his order loudly the second time and finally Slynt speaks up and says that he and the gold cloaks will handle it.

Once Slynt leaves Littlefinger asks about who will fill the new position on the Kingsguard.

Joffrey is excited now and asks his mother to tell the council that the new opening will be filled by Sandor Clegane.

The Hound agrees to be on the Kingsguard but insists that he won't be swearing any knightly vows.

Even Ser Boros seems annoyed to hear this and points out that members of the Kingsguard have always been knights. The Hound is unmoved and basically says things change.

When she sees the herald come forward again, Sansa knows that it's time for her to do what she came to do. She takes a moment to think about how she really made an effort to look well dressed and beautiful.

The herald asks if anyone else has any business to be heard, so Sansa steps forward and calls out to Joffrey. Joffrey smiles at her and tells her to come forward.

Sansa feels stronger and encouraged from Joffrey's smile and thinks that she doesn't want them all to see how nervous she really is.

Cersei asks Sansa if she has business for them to discuss and Sansa takes the moment to bring herself to her knees and ask for mercy for her father.

Cersei tells Sansa that she's disappointed in her and says that they've already been over what a big deal it is to have traitor's blood. Pycelle also feels compelled to remind Sansa of her father's crimes. Varys seems more sympathetic than Pycelle and gives his opinion that Sansa probably doesn't realize what she's saying.

Joffrey wants to hear more of what Sansa has to say and asks the others to allow her to speak. Sansa smiles at Joffrey and continues to feel encouraged by his attitude towards her. She tells herself that Joffrey will listen.

Pycelle goes on some more about how terrible treason is and Littlefinger speaks up and asks Sansa if she's denying her father's crimes.

Sansa replies that she isn't trying to deny her father's crimes and says she's just there to plead for mercy. She tells them that she understands that Ned will need to be punished but also reminds the council that they all must know that Ned loved Robert if nothing else. She points out how her father didn't even want to be the Hand until Robert asked him and suggests that her father must have been lied to by Stannis or someone otherwise he wouldn't have done what he did.

Joffrey wants to know why Ned would dare to say that he isn't the King and Sansa blames it all on Ned's leg and Ned being high on the milk of the poppy that Pycelle had given him.

Varys comments again on Sansa's innocence and seems to think that mercy is warranted. Pycelle makes it clear that treason is too serious for him to be moved by Sansa's pleading. Littlefinger doesn't weigh in during this final phase in the conversation.

Joffrey asks his mother her opinion and Cersei thinks that they might be able to be willing to show mercy if Ned were to confess and show his repentance.

Joffrey gets to his feet and Sansa hopes to herself that Joffrey will be the good, kind, and wonderful king that she knows he is in her heart. He asks her if she has anything more to say and Sansa tells him that If he loves her that he'll do her this kindness. As she says this, she slips and calls Joffrey her 'prince' but the new King doesn't seem to mind. He favors Sansa with another smile and tells her that he's been moved by what she's had to say.

Joffrey tells Sansa that he'll do as she asks provided that her father confess and say that he, Joffrey, is the rightful King. Sansa feels relieved at hearing this and says that she knows her father will.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

Cersei is the Light of the West *snort*

 

I love how Selmy exits like a badass, in both the book and the show.  The show adds a great bit where Joffrey is startled in his seat on the Iron Throne when Selmy's sword hits the ground.  That's more of a visual thing.

[John Potts]

It's scenes like that that made me want to slap some sense into Sansa. You've seen what Joffrey is like up close; you've heard the screams so why are you so sure he'll "fix" everything? Yes, she's young and naïve but you'd hope she'd have learned something about people by now.

 

Also, one of the scenes that the show added that improved what was in the book: the death of Septa Mordane. For a woman who'd bitched at Arya and been bitched at by Sansa, she goes down like a hero, walking unflinchingly to her death to give her charges the chance of escaping (and a 50% success rate is better than none).

Edited August 15, 2015 by John Potts

[Holmbo]

Show Septa > book Septa though. I don't know if book septa would have done the same.

[SeanC]

It's scenes like that that made me want to slap some sense into Sansa. You've seen what Joffrey is like up close; you've heard the screams so why are you so sure he'll "fix" everything? Yes, she's young and naïve but you'd hope she'd have learned something about people by now.

She's so sure he'll fix everything because she's desperately clinging to the notion that things are under control and that she can work out.  This and the previous Sansa chapter are her in full rationalization mode; you can see the reality creeping in around the edges, which she's trying to push down.  Because there is, at this point, nothing much to be gained by "sense"; there's nothing she can do about her current situation.

 

Also, one of the scenes that the show added that improved what was in the book: the death of Septa Mordane. For a woman who'd bitched at Arya and been bitched at by Sansa, she goes down like a hero, walking unflinchingly to her death to give her charges the chance of escaping (and a 50% success rate is better than none).

The septa in the show was a totally different character.  Things like the scene where Sansa is rude to her are completely out of character for the book version.  Mordane in the books is a ninny.

Edited August 15, 2015 by SeanC

[Lady S.]

Huh, hello, Ser Dontos, forgot you showed up here.

 

Can we talk about the part at the beginning left out of the show? Where Pycelle reads off the long list of names summoned to swear fealty? There's some Cersei-brand stupidity which she thinks is strength for you. Some of these people haven't even done anything against Joffrey yet, and this does not seem like the best way to sway undecided nobles away from Robb or Renly. Others like the Brackens, Blackwoods, and Lady Whent have already had their castles captured or assaulted by Tywin's forces, and the Whents' castle is given to Janos Slynt moments after the list is read. Listing all of the Starks is a bit much since the last son is only 3/4, but moreover, shouldn't they be trying to keep Arya's escape under wraps? Why publicly announce that she needs to come to court when she's supposed to still be there? Challenging the Martells also feels pretty uncalled for and pointless, and the line about Doran and his sons with no mention of Oberyn or Arianne makes me wonder how much thought GRRM had put into that family tree yet.

Denial is a perfectly natural defense mechanism, but I don't think Sansa's even in denial too deeply by this point. Sure, Joffrey and Cersei don't actually care about her, but it is in their own interests to keep Ned alive. Sansa knows by now that Ned is in some peril, she wants to do everything she can to help him, so she acts and does the most she can. Which should have actually been helpful if Joffrey had stuck to the bargain. I see her taking action here as an improvement over the previous Sansa chapter where she was clueless and being pushed into writing the letters by Cersei. She's taking initiative to help Ned and her hopes about Joffrey's feelings making him listen are naive, but it was a worthwhile effort and I thought blaming the milk of poppy for Ned's betrayal was actually pretty clever.  

 

To continue a line of thought I brought up after Sansa I, this chapter has the line "I must be as strong as my lady mother", and I think it's the only such thought trying to channel Catelyn that I recall in Sansa's PoVs.

[benteen]

Cersei giving Janos Harenhal is a classic Dumb Cersei move.

[Avaleigh]

This is probably the least that Littlefinger has had to say at a small council meeting so far. He's so happy that Ned is locked up in a cell that he practically skipped into the throne room. 

Cersei is the Light of the West *snort*

 

I love how Selmy exits like a badass, in both the book and the show.  The show adds a great bit where Joffrey is startled in his seat on the Iron Throne when Selmy's sword hits the ground.  That's more of a visual thing.

I laughed out loud when I read Light of the West. For one wild second it seemed like a mistake, like one of Dany's titles used in Meereen. I actually checked to make sure.

 

Selmy is easily my favorite part about this chapter. He's so moving when he talks about everything that he gave up once he swore his vows. It's crazy to me that more people wouldn't be respectful enough to not laugh at his humiliation. 

 

What was classic dumb!Cersei for me is the way she has the most awesome knight in the realm kneeling at her feet, willing to do as she asks, and she doesn't see anything precious or sacred about it. Robert wasn't as *quite* as obnoxious about the contempt he has for the men of the Kingsguard but again, I'm getting the vibe of the royal family having little to no respect for the people who are guarding their lives. Selmy helped guard her and her children for over a decade and it means absolutely nothing to her. 

 

I thought blaming the milk of poppy for Ned's betrayal was actually pretty clever.

I thought it was too. It was reasonable and I was surprised that Pycelle didn't visibly bristle a bit at the implication that he might have been deliberately giving Ned a bit more than he should. 

[Lady S.]

Selmy is easily my favorite part about this chapter. He's so moving when he talks about everything that he gave up once he swore his vows. It's crazy to me that more people wouldn't be respectful enough to not laugh at his humiliation. 

 

What was classic dumb!Cersei for me is the way she has the most awesome knight in the realm kneeling at her feet, willing to do as she asks, and she doesn't see anything precious or sacred about it. Robert wasn't as *quite* as obnoxious about the contempt he has for the men of the Kingsguard but again, I'm getting the vibe of the royal family having little to no respect for the people who are guarding their lives. Selmy helped guard her and her children for over a decade and it means absolutely nothing to her. 

 

I thought it was too. It was reasonable and I was surprised that Pycelle didn't visibly bristle a bit at the implication that he might have been deliberately giving Ned a bit more than he should.

I like how Barry's parting words point out the inferiority of the men left in the Kingsguard. Cersei and Joffrey fire him and are left with the likes of Meryn Trant and Boros Blount to protect and defend them. They didn't deserve Barristan the Bold's service and they leave him free to go serve someone better. Every official decision made in Joffrey's first court is bad, and it's worse thinking about Cersei planning all of those decrees, thinking she's smart and not seeing any of the obvious problems with these ideas.

We just don't get to see everyone's reactions on the page, so let's just assume Pycelle was looking miffed off to the side.

[nodorothyparker]

You really see Cersei's cockiness shining through in this chapter, in giving herself that ridiculous title and in immediately making moves against people who haven't openly aligned against her and Joffrey yet.  She's like a little girl playing dressup with the crown, issuing one bad decree after another.  I love Barristan's handling of his firing but can also be a little sad for him at the same time when he's listing the entire life he gave up for the job of guarding mostly unworthy kings. 

 

This is another chapter where it's helpful to remind myself that Sansa is 11 years old and now completely alone in a court where all her protectors have been killed and her only family has been locked up and branded a traitor.  As someone else said, the reality of what's happening is creeping in around the edges for her as she notices all the changed details of the court, and you can see that on a base level she gets how truly bad the situation is for her father and for herself.  But she's clinging to Joffrey and his "love" for her like a life raft because she's really got nothing else left to draw on.  Her defense of Ned isn't terrible considering how little she has to work with.

Edited August 16, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Avaleigh]

Eddard XV

 

Ned is roughing it in one of the black cells beneath the Red Keep. The cell reeks of piss, there's no bed, and it doesn't even contain so much as a waste bucket. He's in complete darkness in the cell and Ned feels as though it's almost like being blind or even dead.

 

Ned thinks about Robert and remembers his friend mentioning the old saying about how the King eats and the Hand takes a shit. As he remembers Robert's laughter, Ned thinks how very wrong Robert turned out to be and feels that it's probably more accurate to say when the King dies, the Hand is essentially buried along with him. 

 

He damns a long list of people starting with Littlefinger and the other usual King's Landing suspects, but he also includes Barristan and Renly and seems particularly upset about the way Renly chose to flee. Ultimately though, Ned blames and curses himself for his situation and feels guilty over the idea that his men may have died because of his own foolish decisions.

 

He imagines Cersei's mocking smile and hears her whispering her line about what happens when you play the game of thrones.

 

When Ned thinks about Sansa and Arya he wants to cry but the tears don't come and he attributes this to the fact that he's a Stark of Winterfell.

 

Ned is still in pain because of the wound to his leg so he does his best to just sit and not move at all. He has no concept of how much time has passed and alternates between sleeping and having disturbing dreams, or being awake and thinking about how fucked his situation is. He thinks about his wife and wonders if he'll ever see her again.

 

Days seem to go by and Ned starts talking to himself in order to keep his sanity. He hopes that Catelyn will get his men to fight and tells himself that the men of the Riverlands and Vale would be likely to join them. He's also hopeful that the situation with the Mountain has already been dealt with.

 

Ned thinks about Robert a lot and remembers the man Robert was in his youth. He feels that he failed his friend by lying to him and hiding the truth from him. He even blames himself for Robert's death.

 

After having a strange dream where Robert's face turns into Littlefinger's, a gaoler opens the door to the cell so that Ned can have some water. Ned downs as much of the water as he can and then asks how long he's been locked up. The gaoler says there won't be any talking so when Ned begins to plead with the man for news of his daughters, the guy ends up slamming the door in his face.

 

He tries to go back to sleep and realizes that he's gone completely nose blind to the horrible smell.

 

Ned begins to have trouble differentiating between when he's asleep and when he's awake.

 

The memory came creeping upon him in the darkness, as vivid as a dream. It was the year of false spring, and he was eighteen again, down from the Eyrie to the tourney at Harrenhal. He could see the deep green of the grass, and smell the pollen on the wind. Warm days and cool nights and the sweet taste of wine. He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king’s pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.

 

The jousting portion of the tourney was all about Rhaegar and he apparently owned the day by defeating the likes of Brandon Stark, Bronze Yohn Royce, and Ser Arthur Dayne.

 

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

 

Ned then has flashes of the old dream of Lyanna lying in a bed of blood asking him to promise her something. He thinks of how much she loved the scent of winter roses.

 

Ned cries out to the gods to save him and thinks that he must be losing his mind.

 

The gaoler continues to bring Ned water but he isn't being fed at all and briefly wonders if the Lannisters intend to have him starve to death. He tells himself that if they wanted him dead then he would have been killed in the throne room along with his men. He also tells himself that they won't dare have him killed while Tyrion is still a prisoner of Catelyn's.

 

When the cell door opens, Ned again asks for food but is given wine instead. He sees that the gaoler is different this time and suddenly realizes that this new gaoler is Varys in disguise. For a moment Ned thinks that he might be dreaming and actually touches Varys's face just to make sure.

 

Ned wonders if the wine is poisoned so Varys drinks some just to put Ned's mind at ease. He says that Ned's 'hour has come'.

 

Ned first wants to have news of his daughters and learns that Arya fled Ser Meryn Trant and hasn't been seen since. He finds out that Sansa went to court to plead for his life and that she's still engaged to Joffrey. Varys adds that Ned would have been touched if he'd witnessed the scene of Sansa pleading.

 

Varys looks at Ned and asks him if he realizes that he's a dead man walking. Ned doesn't believe it and says that Cersei won't kill him while Catelyn holds Tyrion. Varys tells Ned that would probably be true if Catelyn held Jaime but it makes no matter anyway because somehow Catelyn lost having Tyrion as a prisoner. Varys speculates that Tyrion is dead somewhere in the Vale.

 

Varys tells Ned that he doesn't want him to die and Ned points out that Varys did nothing but watch as Ned's men were slaughtered in the throne room. Varys readily admits that he'd make that choice again if he had to and then has to walk Ned through why a successful master of whisperers sort of has to be slick and unscrupulous.

 

Ned asks if Varys will be able to help him escape from his cell and Varys replies that he can but he won't because it would likely mean his life and he isn't willing to risk it.

 

Ned wonders then if Varys would be willing to pass along a letter, and Varys tells him that it depends on what's in the letter; he would only pass it along if were to somehow suit his own purpose. Ned wants to know what it is Varys really wants and Varys replies that he wants peace for the realm. Varys admits that he tried hard to keep Robert alive because peace was something that Robert's reign was able to provide.

 

Varys wants to know what the hell made Ned confront Cersei about the incest and Ned admits that he was trying to be merciful.   

 

Varys comments that he sometimes forgets that Ned is an honorable man because he's met so few honorable men in life. Varys also can't help but point out to Ned where Ned's honor and honesty have landed him.

 

Varys goes on to say that it was Ned's mercy that killed Robert and this is exactly what Ned had been fearing. He asks for the forgiveness of the gods for his mistake. Varys says that if there are gods he's sure that Ned is the type they'd forgive.

 

Robert was living on borrowed time anyway, according to Varys, and he guesses that Cersei wanted to get rid of Robert so that she could focus her efforts on getting rid of Stannis and Renly as well.

 

Ned listens to Varys tell him how dumb it was for him to not go with Littlefinger's plan of Ned backing Joffrey and Ned wants to know how Varys even knows the details of that private conversation. Varys smiles at this and replies that it's only important that Ned knows that he knows. He also informs Ned that Cersei is likely going to pay him a visit tomorrow.

 

Ned wonders why she'd want to see him and Varys says that it's because Cersei is starting to worry about the river of shit that is headed her way in the form of the Baratheon brothers not to mention other people with grudges like the Martells and Lysa Arryn.

 

The king’s brothers are the ones giving Cersei sleepless nights . . . Lord Stannis in particular. His claim is the true one, he is known for his prowess as a battle commander, and he is utterly without mercy. There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man. No one knows what Stannis has been doing on Dragonstone, but I will wager you that he’s gathered more swords than seashells. So here is Cersei’s nightmare: while her father and brother spend their power battling Starks and Tullys, Lord Stannis will land, proclaim himself king, and lop off her son’s curly blond head . . . and her own in the bargain, though I truly believe she cares more about the boy.”

 

Since Stannis is the legitimate heir to Robert, Ned says that he'd be happy to see him take the throne. Varys is like um, hello, that's exactly the kind of thing Cersei isn't going to want to hear. He says that Ned is being given a chance to live and explains that Cersei isn't so stupid that she doesn't see it's better off for her side in the long run to keep Ned alive.

 

Ned asks Varys if he really expects him to play ball with Cersei after everything that she's done to the people he loves, but Varys doesn't want Ned to look at it that way. He tells Ned that he wants him to serve the realm. He says that if Ned confesses, gets Robb to lay down his sword, and tells everyone that Joffrey is the true heir, that Cersei will allow Ned to live out the rest of his days on the Wall where he'd be able to be with Benjen and Jon.

 

Just being reminded of Jon fills Ned with sadness and shame and he thinks to himself that he'd like to be able to see him again to finally talk with him.

 

Ned asks if this was an idea that Littlefinger and Varys cooked up together and Varys says there's no way that he's in league with Littlefinger. He claims that Littlefinger is the second most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms and basically says that he only feeds Littlefinger enough information to keep Littlefinger thinking that they're on the same side. He mentions that he does the same thing with Cersei.

 

Ned points out that Varys probably treats him the way he treats Littlefinger and Cersei and asks Varys who it is he truly serves. Varys smiles and again claims that he's working in the interests of the realm.

 

They finish drinking the wine and Varys wants to know if Ned is going to tell Cersei what she wants to hear when she comes to see him. Ned refuses and says that he doesn't love life so much that he's willing to turn the honor of his word into something that is ultimately hollow and meaningless.

 

When Varys asks Ned if his daughter's life is worth possibly reconsidering his thoughts on the importance of honor in the grand scheme of things, Ned's heart turns here and he pleads with Varys to leave Sansa out of his plotting.

 

“Rhaenys was a child too. Prince Rhaegar’s daughter. A precious little thing, younger than your girls. She had a small black kitten she called Balerion, did you know? I always wondered what happened to him. Rhaenys liked to pretend he was the true Balerion, the Black Dread of old, but I imagine the Lannisters taught her the difference between a kitten and a dragon quick enough, the day they broke down her door.” Varys gave a long weary sigh, the sigh of a man who carried all the sadness of the world in a sack upon his shoulders. “The High Septon once told me that as we sin, so do we suffer. If that’s true, Lord Eddard, tell me . . . why is it always the innocents who suffer most, when you high lords play your game of thrones? Ponder it, if you would, while you wait upon the queen. And spare a thought for this as well: The next visitor who calls on you could bring you bread and cheese and the milk of the poppy for your pain . . . or he could bring you Sansa’s head.

 

Varys leaves it to Ned and tells him that the choice is his.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Holmbo]

Ned's view in Stark crying seem to differ from people at this board :)

People are very prone to blame the good guys for causing all the mess. Excuse me Varys but was Ned the one fucking his twin?

[Avaleigh]

It's the last Ned chapter, guys. :(

Ned's view in Stark crying seem to differ from people at this board :)

Holmbo, you beat me to it. I think I stared for a solid thirty seconds at that part before laughing. And Ned is ultimately described as having "wept" so I'm guessing a few tears did eventually fall? 

 

The mixture of hope and despair with Ned here is heartbreaking. Each time I'd read about something that he'd hope for that I know isn't going to work out, I'd feel a pang. When he thought about the Vale helping or Catelyn having an advantage by holding Tyrion. I also felt bad knowing what might have been if he'd been allowed to go to the Wall. I wonder if he'd have been permitted to visit Winterfell if he'd been allowed to go to the Wall. Benjen was allowed to so you'd think Ned would have been able to as well. I can totally imagine Ned pulling his honorable card on Cat in this scenario by holding to his vow to never father another child. 

 

The idea of Cersei going to visit Ned in that cell given its description seems strange to me. Like she'd prefer to have him brought before her even if it was still in private. 

 

Ned needs to get real if he thinks Sansa is going to be left out of anybody's plotting. It seems like even though he was concerned about his daughters, it didn't occur to him just how vulnerable Sansa is until Varys spelled it out for him. 

 

I can't decide if Tyrion's sky cell or the black cell is worse in this book. I think Ned has a harder time in prison because he's injured and he's there longer. Plus he hasn't been given any food so far whereas Tyrion at least got a little even if was poor quality and nowhere near enough. The sky cells have fresh air and scenery but it's super cold and of course going to sleep can be dangerous because of the sloping. In the black cells at least it's warm and easy to sleep. 

 

Ned and Catelyn had similar reactions when they learned that Arya is missing. They're worried but it's almost like they don't want to consider the possibilities so they try not to think about it too much. 

 

There is a sort of irony in Robert being the man who was able to keep the realm in peace considering how much he enjoyed fighting and everything. 

 

Interesting that Varys too thinks that the smart option would have been for Ned to back Joffrey as opposed to Team Stannis or Renly. I think Varys probably was genuinely moved by Sansa's pleas. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

Poor Ned is a broken wreck at this point.  Having a broken leg in that era had to be a nightmare...add to that spending his days sitting on the floor of a pitch-black cell and having no idea what's happened to his daughters, even Ned isn't going to be able to take that.

 

Ned is exactly the kind of man the Night's Watch needs and he would have done great service on the Wall.  He was much better suited for that than Hand of the King.

[John Potts]

"When all you have left to decide is how you die, all that matters is that you die nobly" (I forget where that's from, though I'm pretty sure it's not GRRM - at least not originally). Poor Ned, faced with being denied even an honourable death to save his daughter. And while I did want to slap Sansa for being an idiot, I agree with Varys here: she may be naïve, but she gave the best possible spin on his actions (he was lied to, it was the Milk of the Poppy that made him believe it) to convince Joffrey/Cersei to spare him.

 

benteen Ned is exactly the kind of man the Night's Watch needs and he would have done great service on the Wall.

 

 

Absolutely. With the Stark bros at the Wall (OK, Benjen is already "Missing, presumed dead" at this point) the situation in the North would be considerably less precarious. I wonder if Ned wouldn't have become the next Lord Commander after Lord Mormont?

[Holmbo]

I wonder what the logistics would have been in taking Ned to the wall. Maybe they'd send him on a ship. In that case would Yoren and crew be allowed to go with them?

[benteen]

The only thing I wonder is what condition Ned would be by the time he ended up on the Wall.  That leg would have made traveling a nightmare.  Ned and Jaqen traveling together would have been intriguing.

 

Triggering a war with the North and depriving the Night's Watch of an experience commander...Joffrey manages to screw the Realm twice over!

[SeanC]

I wonder what the logistics would have been in taking Ned to the wall. Maybe they'd send him on a ship. In that case would Yoren and crew be allowed to go with them?

The reason Yoren was at Ned's execution was because he had been summoned to pick Ned up. Which means he was presumably planning to travel to the Wall in his little cart. No, it doesn't make any sense -- but nothing about Night's Watch recruiting does.

However, Ned would never have actually gone to the Wall had he been spared. After the utter disaster at Whispering Wood and the Camps, the Lannisters would have used Ned to negotiate at least a prisoner exchange and probably an end to the war.

Edited August 18, 2015 by SeanC

[nodorothyparker]

Interesting that Varys too thinks that the smart option would have been for Ned to back Joffrey as opposed to Team Stannis or Renly. I think Varys probably was genuinely moved by Sansa's pleas.

 

It would have been the smarter option for Ned to either follow Robert's dying words and let a Lannister-controlled Joffrey take the throne or take Renly up on his offer to wrest control of Joffrey away from Cersei and rule through him.  If he made keeping the short-term peace a priority and getting his girls the hell out of Dodge instead of stubbornly insisting on the right of succession and screw everything else.  At worst, either option would have likely resulted in a much smaller contained Lannister-Barathon war that maybe wouldn't have left so much of the Seven Kingdoms wrecked heading into winter. So Varys gets to actually be telling the truth that he's on the side of keeping the peace and gets more time to get his preferred candidate into position to invade.

 

Bonus that Ned lives on to rule on at Winterfell to keep the Boltons and the rest of the North in check and more ready to deal with whatever's eventually coming over the Wall.

Edited August 18, 2015 by nodorothyparker

[Lady S.]

Knowing what we do of Joffrey, I don't think letting him take the throne would have really done much for peace. I can't see him allowing Ned and Renly to manage him, seeing as the job of king-managing was too much for Ned even when the king was his best friend. I think the good part of Renly's plan was just taking Cersei's kids hostage, after that Ned could hand them over to Stannis or try to force Cersei to come to terms or whatever, but actually raising Joff per Bobby's will wouldn't have worked. If Ned couldn't keep Theon from growing up into a prick, I think a Ned-raised Joffrey would still be a lost cause. And the Lannisters only wanted peace in the sense of no one daring to question their power, Cersei still wanted Stannis and Renly dead and out of the way, and Varys even says it was only a matter of time before she'd need to get rid of Robert to kill his brothers.

 

I think Ned's best way to save himself would have meant not trying to deal with the succession himself, just get the girls and leave town, inform Stannis of the situation (which, of course, he already knew about, and it's another failure of Ned's that that never occurred to him), and tell him it's his problem, then let the Baratheon bros sort their own shit out, choosing a side only once it comes to war. Or if he just really wants justice for the father figure he believes was murdered by the Lannisters, he could confront them only after he knew the girls were safe, so that it'd be only his own welfare and life on the line. I don't really see anything wrong with Ned wanting to see Robert's true heir on the throne, and I think even a dishonorable scoundrel would not want to make peace with Cersei and let Joffers take the throne after all that the Lannisters had done, it's just that Ned went about it all wrong in trying to take down Cersei. 

 

However, Ned would never have actually gone to the Wall had he been spared. After the utter disaster at Whispering Wood and the Camps, the Lannisters would have used Ned to negotiate at least a prisoner exchange and probably an end to the war.

Yeah, in typical Cersei strategy, this is a plan which doesn't really allow for the possibility of Robb winning. Robb intended to bring Ned home, he wouldn't release Jaime just because Ned was headed to the Wall, that'd be rewarding the Lannisters for a deal done to benefit Cersei without really giving the Starks what they wanted. And with Ned in the NW and off the table for a trade, then the same problem comes with Sansa not being an equal trade for Jaime. So Tywin probably would have intercepted Ned going north and taken over negotiations from Cersei. If Cersei knew what she was doing, she could have at least waited to see how the fighting in the riverlands turned out. But her deal was more focused on forestalling the fighting so Jaime and Tywin could come protect her from Stannis. She had to know there was a chance one of them would fight Robb before Ned could call him off, so she was probably betting Robb would just be captured or killed and her options would really open up. As it happened, she needed Ned on hand to negotiate with his family, which means leaving him in the black cells to rot in such poor conditions was also probably not a great idea.

 

 

I also felt bad knowing what might have been if he'd been allowed to go to the Wall. I wonder if he'd have been permitted to visit Winterfell if he'd been allowed to go to the Wall. Benjen was allowed to so you'd think Ned would have been able to as well. I can totally imagine Ned pulling his honorable card on Cat in this scenario by holding to his vow to never father another child. 

 

Benjen didn't have a wife and kids at Winterfell, though. Ned's situation would be more like the Old Bear's, who I got the impression left Jorah in charge of Bear Island and never looked back, since he told Tyrion he hadn't met some of Maege's daughters. I mean, the NW couldn't really trust Ned to be the only member there putting his vows first, and I'm not sure he even would be. The guy's hung up on his own honor but he's not a monk, and Aemon interprets the vows as being more about love than sex anyway. Someone like Stannis would probably be great at giving up sex and familial love, but that's what sets him apart from more normal humans.

 

I love Varys as a character, but it's hard to take him seriously about suffering innocents when he has the tongues cut out of children and was plotting a Dothraki invasion. He has his own war-filled agenda just as Littlefinger does, it's just that his motives are less selfish. Robert's death would have been great for him if it had happened more in time with his plans.

 

The saddest parts of this chapter for me are Ned's nightmares of blood and broken promises and his wish to see and talk to Jon again. And of course, the Harrenhal tourney flashback means a lot more coming from Ned than Littlefinger.

Edited August 19, 2015 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn IX

 

As she's traveling to the Twins with Robb's army, Catelyn is worried about pretty much everyone in her family and finds her fear growing as the days go by. She worries for all of her children but she feels that Robb is the only one of them she can help at the moment. She does her best to push thoughts of the family members she can't help to the back of her mind so that she can focus her efforts on being of assistance to Robb.

 

Robb is showing how much he has learned from Ned and makes a point to have a different lord ride out in front with him so that they can discuss this and that. Robb is doing his best to listen to his men and to not show things like favoritism.

 

The Blackfish has ridden ahead of the party along with a hundred others for scouting purposes, and sends back information that Tywin's host is still days away. Meanwhile, about four thousand men are stationed at the Twins and Catelyn curses Lord Frey for this thinking about how these men should really be over at Riverrun helping out their liege lord.

 

Robb is confused about the four thousand men hanging out at the Twins and wonders if Frey means to join his forces to theirs. Catelyn advises Robb to not expect anything from Walder Frey. She says this way Robb won't ever be surprised by him.

 

Robb again brings up the fact that Lord Frey is one of Catelyn's father's bannermen but Catelyn reminds Robb that some men take things like vows more seriously than others. She also mentions that the Freys have always been too friendly with the Lannisters considering the fact that one of Lord Frey's sons is married to Tywin's sister.

 

Robett Glover asks Catelyn if she thinks the Freys will betray them to the Lannisters.

 

 

Catelyn sighed. “If truth be told, I doubt even Lord Frey knows what Lord Frey intends to do. He has an old man’s caution and a young man’s ambition, and has never lacked for cunning.”

 

 

Robb insists that they must have the Twins if his plan is going to work.

 

While they're camped out that evening, a smiling Theon brings back word that the Blackfish and his men ended up killing about a dozen of the Lannister scouts. Ser Adam Marbrand is retreating but he isn't going to be able to warn Tywin that the host is going to split. Catelyn points out that Lord Frey could always give Tywin a heads up so they should probably keep that in mind.

 

Catelyn instructs Theon to tell the Blackfish to place his best bowmen all along the Twins so that they can take down any ravens that are leaving the battlements. She wants to make sure that Tywin doesn't get word of what Robb is planning.

 

Theon seems amused and informs Catelyn that the Blackfish is already ahead of her on that one and adds that they've been taking down enough birds to make themselves a pie.

 

Catelyn asks Theon what the response from House Frey has been to having their lands burned and Theon says that the Freys are defending their lands to a point, so Catelyn determines that they might have a very different attitude when it comes to facing Tywin's host in open battle.

 

Robb gives the reasons for why it will be extremely difficult to cross the Green Fork and again repeats that they're going to need the Twins if his plan is going to be successful.

 

Theon tells Robb that they'll be able to have the Twins no matter what and have enough men to take it from Frey by force if they have to. Catelyn says they won't be able to take it easily and even if they do manage to do it, it'll take time and Tywin might end up attacking them if they attempt to lay siege to the Twins.

 

Robb asks about what his father would do here and Catelyn says that Ned would have tried to find away to cross no matter what it ended up taking.

 

The Blackfish returns to the camp in the morning and brings news that Jaime has destroyed Edmure's host. Catelyn nervously asks about the fate of her brother and learns that Edmure has been injured and his now a prisoner.

 

Lord Blackwood and others are surrounded by Jaime's forces and are now besieged at Riverrun.

 

Robb is all kinds of pissed and just wants to be able to cross and be done with it. He seems inclined to take the Twins by force but Catelyn sort of scolds him here and tells him that he's sounding childish. She tells him that there are times for swords and times for a more diplomatic approach.

 

Catelyn says that there's a reason House Frey has been able to hold the Twins for some six hundred years. The Freys always collect a toll of some kind so now the Starks need to figure out what their price is. If Robb doesn't want to pay whatever the toll is then he'll have no choice but to retreat back to Moat Cailin.

 

Catelyn wonders again if Robb has been taught everything that he'll need to know and wonders if Ned taught Robb the importance of knowing when to kneel. She then thinks about the long list of dead men who never quite learned that lesson.

 

As Catelyn is looking at the Twins she thinks that Robb isn't going to be able to take the castle by storming it. The Greatjon and Lord Rickard Karstark don't say anything, but it's clear they're dismayed when they see how well protected the Twins are. Roose Bolton looks at it and flat out says that the Twins cannot be stormed. Ser Helman Tallhart says that they probably wouldn't even be able to lay siege to the castle even if they did have the time, which of course they don't.

 

Four of Lord Frey's sons ride out to meet Robb's host and it seems that the Freys all look like weasels. Catelyn thinks that Ser Stevron Frey is a rather tired looking weasel but also acknowledges that he seems like a pleasant enough man.

 

After learning that Robb is leading the host, Ser Stevron says that his father would be honored if Robb would come in to eat, drink, and explain exactly what it is that he wants. Once the offer is made, Robb's lords immediately start grumbling and while they all have different things to say, they're all in agreement that Walder Frey cannot be trusted and that there are all kinds of things that could happen to Robb if he were to waltz in there on his own, none of them good.

 

Manderly asks why they can't all go in if Frey is so happy to share his food and drink and Ser Wylis suggests that Frey come to them.

 

Catelyn sees that Ser Stevron is starting to get annoyed and thinks that they're about to lose their opportunity of being able to talk to Lord Frey directly. Seeing that she needs to act quickly, Catelyn offers to go and speak with Lord Frey herself.

 

Robb seems concerned but Catelyn tries to downplay the danger and says that Walder Frey has known her since she was a little girl so she thinks that he'd be unlikely to hurt her. To herself she admits that Frey would hurt her if he thought there was anything to be gained from doing so.

 

As a token of good faith, one of the Frey brothers stays behind with Robb's host. Robb tells Ser Stevron that he expects his mother's return by nightfall.

 

Catelyn thinks back on how her father used to say that Frey was the only man in the Seven Kingdoms who would be able to form an entire army of nothing but his offspring. He has fifty seven sons and grandsons and that isn't counting the daughters or the bastards and all of their kids.

 

Lord Walder is ninety years old and his latest wife is a sixteen year old girl.

 

Catelyn tries to be polite and exchange some customary pleasantries but Old Walder isn't really interested and wants to know why Robb didn't come before him himself. Ser Stevron tells his father that Catelyn is there at his invitation but Walder doesn't want Stevron's opinions or to be told what to do. When one of Walder's bastards dares to speak his mind about how rude Walder is being in front of their guest, Walder humiliates the kid by crudely emphasizing his bastard status. 

 

Once Lord Frey is placed in the high seat of the hall, he kisses Catelyn's hand, and asks her what she wants of him. Catelyn is straightforward and tells him that she wants him to open the gates to allow Robb and his host to cross.

 

Lord Frey asks if they'll be heading to Riverrun and Catelyn admits this, and then tells Walder that she'd sort of expected him to already be there considering that the Freys are bannermen to House Tully.

 

Lord Frey weasels his way out of being labeled a traitor by saying that he did call in his men, he'd just been waiting for them to all get assembled and then they planned on marching to Riverrun. He has one of his sons confirm for Catelyn that this was indeed his intention.

 

Frey then goes extra on Catelyn by saying that it isn't his fault her foolish brother lost before they could make it down there. He asks Catelyn why his men should run over to Riverrun just so they can be killed by Jaime Lannister?

 

Catelyn briefly fantasizes about having Lord Frey roasted on a spit and then asks him if they might be able to talk somewhere with more privacy. Frey orders his huge family to get out so that he and Catelyn can be alone. He confides that all of his family members are waiting for him to die. Catelyn kisses Frey's ass for a bit and tells him that she hopes he'll live to be a hundred. Frey seems amused by the idea and thinks it would properly tick everyone off.

 

Frey asks Catelyn why he should let her son and his army make the crossing and she responds by telling Frey that he has some twenty thousand men outside of his walls so maybe he should think about that.

 

Old Walder breaks down Catelyn's situation and says that he isn't frightened by what she's telling him. He says that she has a husband who is in a black cell in King's Landing, her father is likely dying, her brother is a hostage of Jaime Lannister, and Tywin Lannister is on the march. He asks Cat why he should fear her or her son especially since he has a lot more sons to work with than she does.

 

Catelyn reminds Lord Frey that he swore an oath to her father and Lord Frey tells her that he might have gone through the motions but he also had to swear a vow to the Crown so who's to say he isn't doing what he's supposed to be doing. He adds that if he had any sense that he'd probably side with the Lannisters right now.

 

Catelyn asks Walder why he doesn't side with the Lannisters and be done with it then.

 

Lord Walder snorted with disdain. “Lord Tywin the proud and splendid, Warden of the West, Hand of the King, oh, what a great man that one is, him and his gold this and gold that and lions here and lions there. I’ll wager you, he eats too many beans, he breaks wind just like me, but you’ll never hear him admit it, oh, no. What’s hegot to be so puffed up about anyway? Only two sons, and one of them’s a twisted little monster. I’ll match himson for son, and I’ll still have nineteen and a half left when all of his are dead!” He cackled. “If Lord Tywin wants my help, he can bloody well ask for it.”

 

Catelyn attempts to ask Frey for help in a more humble way but he cuts her off and says that he isn't interested in seeing her play sweet with him. He says that he gets sweetness from his sixteen year old wife and thinks that she'll be pregnant with a child before long. Frey entertains himself for a bit thinking about how pissed off his family would be if he ended up making a son of his current wife his number one heir.

 

Catelyn flatters Frey a bit by saying that she thinks his new wife will give him many sons.

 

His head bobbed up and down. “Your lord father did not come to the wedding. An insult, as I see it. Even if he is dying. He never came to my last wedding either. He calls me the Late Lord Frey, you know. Does he think I’m dead? I’m not dead, and I promise you, I’ll outlive him as I outlived his father. Your family has always pissed on me, don’t deny it, don’t lie, you know it’s true. Years ago, I went to your father and suggested a match between his son and my daughter. Why not? I had a daughter in mind, sweet girl, only a few years older than Edmure, but if your brother didn’t warm to her, I had others he might have had, young ones, old ones, virgins, widows, whatever he wanted. No, Lord Hoster would not hear of it. Sweet words he gave me, excuses, but what I wanted was to get rid of a daughter.

 

Frey has words to say about Lysa too and as he's bitching about how Lysa objected to having her son Robert fostered over at the Twins, he reveals how he heard that the plan was for Robert Arryn to be fostered over at Dragonstone with Stannis Baratheon. Catelyn actually asks Frey if he's sure Robert wasn't supposed to have been fostered at Casterly Rock with Tywin and Frey again confirms that Robert was supposed to be fostered with Stannis; he's also a little grumpy that Catelyn thinks it's possible that he might be getting his facts confused and says that he's perfectly capable of telling Stannis and Tywin apart.

 

Frey has more criticism to hand out and kind of gives a reading of both Stannnis and Tywin and basically says that they're both assholes who think their shit doesn't stink.

 

Catelyn asks Old Walder once more to verify the story about the plan for Robert to be fostered at Dragonstone and Frey again confirms that this was the plan before Jon Arryn died.

 

Frey brings them back to the matter at hand and again asks why he should let Robb and his host cross the river. He smirks at her and says that the Starks and Tullys have never been friendly to his family and basically asks what she plans on doing to change that.

 

They haggle it out for awhile and Catelyn is eventually able to get Frey to agree to let them pass.

 

When she returns to Robb she tells them the news that they'll be able to pass and that they'll have Frey's men to add to their numbers save four hundred who are being left behind to hold the Twins. Catelyn suggests that Robb leave four hundred of his own men behind as well and to give command of the men to a man he really trusts since somebody is likely going to need to keep Frey from losing faith in Robb's cause.

 

Robb goes with his mother's suggestions and then appoints Ser Helman Tallhart to stay behind and command the men.

 

Robb then learns about the specifics of the deal. Two of Frey's grandsons are going to be fostered at Winterfell; one of Frey's sons will be Robb's squire; Arya will have to marry Frey's youngest son when they both come of age, and Robb is expected to marry the Frey daughter of his choice.

 

Robb wonders if he'll be able to refuse and Catelyn makes it clear that he can't refuse if he wants to bring his army across the river. Robb says that he agrees to the plan and he and part of his host make the crossing while Roose Bolton leads the larger part of the army to meet with Tywin.

 

Catelyn thinks to herself that for better or worse her son is taking a gamble.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

I find it interesting that a lot of these Northerners appear to be seeing the Twins for the first time. They all seem surprised as to how well it's defended. 

 

I don't think House Frey is going anywhere with those numbers. The blood of the weasel is strong. 

 

Poor Arya. If she'd made it back to her family at this point, she'd be in for a hell of a shock. 

 

She isn't mentioned by name but I think this is the first reference we get to Genna Lannister. 

 

Frey fails to appreciate the fact that people dislike him because he's crude, grumpy, and hard-hearted asshole. Not everyone in the realm is going to jump up and down and go out of their way to see some mean old man marrying some teenage girl who probably had no choice in the matter. He's also the kind of guy who delights in nothing more than finding ways to upset his large family. He has all of these kids but doesn't seem to particularly like any of them.  

 

I will give the guy credit for having a perfectly sharp mind at his age even though he's the type to always come to a horrible conclusion about any given topic. Catelyn doesn't want to believe that he's recalling the Robert Arryn thing right but it's pretty clear that he is and his story adds up with the version she heard from Maester Colemon.

[SeanC]

I find it interesting that a lot of these Northerners appear to be seeing the Twins for the first time. They all seem surprised as to how well it's defended. 

That always confused me.  If the Twins is the only place for an army to cross north of the Crossroads, where did Ned's army cross in Robert's Rebellion?  Because the crossroads area is full of royalist houses, not to mention that it's skirting rather close to King's Landing, etc.

[WearyTraveler]

That always confused me.  If the Twins is the only place for an army to cross north of the Crossroads, where did Ned's army cross in Robert's Rebellion?  Because the crossroads area is full of royalist houses, not to mention that it's skirting rather close to King's Landing, etc.

 

Not so close, the Crossroads is roughly halfway between The Twins and KIng's landing.  Here is a map from the books (which I consider the only official geography):

 

 

The Crossroads is where the River Road and the King's Road meet.  It's fairly close to Riverrun But not so much to KL.  Obviously is closer than The Twins, but not so close that it would screw up military strategy.  Also, when Robert started his war, he had the support of the Vale, so, his army was presumably larger than Rob's is at this point in the story.

 

I think that once Rob had the North, the Vale and the Riverlands with him, he marched south and met Rhaegar at the Trident, which is right there at the Crossroads.  Rhaegar presumably had all the houses supporting the Targs with him for that battle and defeating him there won Robert the war, even if there were more battles after that, because that's when he beat the largest force supporting the Targs.  So, after that, marching down to KL's should have been a breeze.

Edited August 20, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[SeanC]

But Ned's army had already crossed the Trident before that to link up with Hoster Tully and rendezvous with Robert at Stoney Sept for the Battle of the Bells.

[benteen]

While she makes some bad mistakes, this chapter showed me how much more savvy Catelyn is at reading a situation than her show counterpart.  D & D stripped that all away from Catelyn to reduce her to a generic mom figure, giving all her agency and later decisions to the men around her.  It's still disappointing.

 

Interesting that Walder is the first one to bring up the whole "foster Robert Arryn at Dragonstone" plan.  How'd he hear about that?  Probably had his sources in King's Landing, something Ned should have had even if he never wanted to go South.

Edited August 20, 2015 by benteen

[SeanC]

The lack of any delegates from the great lords in the capital is one of the bigger holes in GRRM's world building. The Starks, Tullys, Tyrells, Martells (maybe not then, post-rebellion), etc. would all want to have emissaries who would advocate for regional interests, act as conduits for the administration of the state, and keep their bosses apprised about what's going on.

In Ned's case, especially, it makes no sense that he didn't leave some supporter of his to represent the North on the small council (it makes sense for him not to take that role himself, at the end of the Rebellion).

[benteen]

I understand Ned not wanting to get involved in Southern matters but it seems that events in Westeros rarely give you that choice.

 

There was at least one Master of Laws and at least one Master of Coin before Renly and Littlefinger respectively on the Small Council.  Plus one member of the Kingsguard before Ser Arys who was killed in the Greyjoy Rebellion.  I wonder who they could have been.  I could see a man of the North as Master of Laws.

Edited August 20, 2015 by benteen

[Lady S.]

 

Poor Arya. If she'd made it back to her family at this point, she'd be in for a hell of a shock. 

 

She isn't mentioned by name but I think this is the first reference we get to Genna Lannister. 

 

Yeah, people always focus on Robb's betrothal, but Arya's is so much worse. It's not just that Robb gets to agree himself and choose his partner when the time comes, but the partner chosen for Arya is pretty bad. If Genna marrying Walder's 2nd son was an insult, then marrying his youngest is a huge step down. I do wonder how much Catelyn cared about holding Arya to this, since it'd be years in the future and it is an insulting match basically extorted from her. Pushing Arya into a marriage she didn't want would be a challenge in any case, but would they really be up for that challenge for the sake of a marriage that would only make Walder happy and doesn't benefit House Stark? (I definitely don't think Ned would care more about honoring this promise than about Arya's happiness.) And Arya's willfulness ruining a betrothal would probably be a lot less embarrassing if it was one that only Walder Frey actually wanted.  

 

A few lines stand out in hindsight, like the line about some men taking their vows more seriously than others. Walder never took his oaths very seriously, but gods forbid Robb breaks a promise to the Freys, one he should have never had to make if Walder had actually cared more about his vows to House Tully. It was also interesting that Roose Bolton was warning Robb not to put himself in Frey's power. "He can sell you to the Lannisters, throw you in a dungeon, or slit your throat, as he likes.", words that later come true, with Roose's help, at the Red Wedding. Foreshadowing or coincidence? The other bit I caught was that the son Walder asked to confirm his intentions, Jared Frey,

is the one Davos calls out as a liar at White Harbor, after he says Robb started the Red Wedding by turning into a wolf.

 

I admit I'm amused by a lot of Walder's lines, especially his habit of comparing other people's sons to the number he has.

[SeanC]

I understand Ned not wanting to get involved in Southern matters but it seems that events in Westeros rarely give you that choice.

It can't really be left to Ned's personal choices, since none of the other great lords not in the capital seem to have any formal representation there either.

 

Yeah, people always focus on Robb's betrothal, but Arya's is so much worse. It's not just that Robb gets to agree himself and choose his partner when the time comes, but the partner chosen for Arya is pretty bad. If Genna marrying Walder's 2nd son was an insult, then marrying his youngest is a huge step down. I do wonder how much Catelyn cared about holding Arya to this, since it'd be years in the future and it is an insulting match basically extorted from her. Pushing Arya into a marriage she didn't want would be a challenge in any case, but would they really be up for that challenge for the sake of a marriage that would only make Walder happy and doesn't benefit House Stark? (I definitely don't think Ned would care more about honoring this promise than about Arya's happiness.) And Arya's willfulness ruining a betrothal would probably be a lot less embarrassing if it was one that only Walder Frey actually wanted.  

Considering it was part of a deal to acquire thousands of soldiers for House Stark, I'm pretty sure Ned and Catelyn would feel bound by its terms.

[netlyon2]

I admit I'm amused by a lot of Walder's lines, especially his habit of comparing other people's sons to the number he has.

You know, until I read this comment I hadn't considered how much of a Niobe figure Walder Frey is. 

It makes me think of Stoneheart and BwB as Apollo and Artemis (the twins!) taking out all of the boasted-about children. It will be so satisfying to see Frey "childless and crownless, in [his] voiceless woe" (Lord Byron), hopefully just before an Other gets him or something.

[Avaleigh]

Jon VIII

The Old Bear asks Jon if he's feeling quite well, so Jon lies, says that he's fine, and then asks Mormont if he's okay.

Mormont admits that's he's pretty far from being okay considering the fact that a dead man just tried to kill him. He says Jon definitely doesn't look well and asks about Jon's hand which ended up getting burned during the wight attack. Jon says that the maester says there will be some scars but otherwise he's going to be fine.

Jon seems a little traumatized from his encounter with the wights and has been having nightmares about the incident. He also had to deal with some severe pain in the beginning because of his hand and the pain actually makes him writhe around in his bed and whimper; he's grateful that only Ghost has witnessed him in this state.

Mormont tells Jon that the rangers still haven't found Benjen.

The encounter with the wights is clearly weighing heavily on Mormont and he seems to think that they both might have been killed if there had been an extra wight involved in the attack. Mormont declares that summer is over and they might be close to being in the most intense winter the world has ever known. Jon thinks about how ominous the Stark words sound.

Jon is curious about the latest raven and wants to know if there is any news of his father. Mormont says that he'd tell Jon if there was any news of Ned and says that this letter contained the information that Ser Barristan Selmy has been removed from the Kingsuard and is now a wanted man. Selmy killed a couple of gold cloaks during his escape and it's apparent that Mormont thinks the people in King's Landing are fools for sending a couple of watchmen to go after one of the most skilled knights in the realm.

Jon asks about his sisters and Mormont tells him that the letter contained no information about them. He suggests that Pycelle chose not to reply and says that the people in King's Landing basically give the men at the Wall information on a need to know basis. Jon thinks to himself that Mormont is the same way with him.

It seems that Sam has told Jon about how Robb called the banners and is marching off to war. Jon is resentful that Mormont hasn't talked with him about this at all and can't help but feel cowardly that he isn't with Robb riding at his side.

Mormont wonders when Jon will have the use of his hand again and proceeds to give him a gift of a Valyrian sword.

The pommel was a hunk of pale stone weighted with lead to balance the long blade. It had been carved into the likeness of a snarling wolf’s head, with chips of garnet set into the eyes. The grip was virgin leather, soft and black, as yet unstained by sweat or blood. The blade itself was a good half foot longer than those Jon was used to, tapered to thrust as well as slash, with three fullers deeply incised in the metal. Where Ice was a true two-handed greatsword, this was a hand-and-a-halfer, sometimes named a “bastard sword.” Yet the wolf sword actually seemed lighter than the blades he had wielded before. When Jon turned it sideways, he could see the ripples in the dark steel where the metal had been folded back on itself again and again. “This is Valyrian steel, my lord,” he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel.

“It is,” the Old Bear told him. “It was my father’s sword, and his father’s before him. The Mormonts have carried it for five centuries. I wielded it in my day and passed it on to my son when I took the black.”

Jon can hardly believe that he's being given the ancestral blade of the Mormonts and immediately asks the Old Bear about his son. Mormont says that his son Jorah at least had the grace to leave the sword once he realized that he would have to go into exile. For Mormont, having the sword only reminds him of his son's disgrace so he'd rather see it in Jon's hands. He's even had a white wolf pommel made especially for it.

When Jon had been Bran’s age, he had dreamed of doing great deeds, as boys always did. The details of his feats changed with every dreaming, but quite often he imagined saving his father’s life. Afterward Lord Eddard would declare that Jon had proved himself a true Stark, and place Ice in his hand. Even then he had known it was only a child’s folly; no bastard could ever hope to wield a father’s sword. Even the memory shamed him. What kind of man stole his own brother’s birthright? I have no right to this, he thought, no more than to Ice.

Jon tells Mormont that he's honored and tries to refuse, but Mormont won't hear of it. He says that Jon and Ghost are the reason he is still alive. He compliments Jon for being so quick on his feet and curses that the men of the watch haven't remembered all of the lessons learned because of the Long Night that took place some eight thousand years ago.

Jon thinks about how he's been having nightmares about the wight attack and how in one dream the burning wight ended up having Ned's features. Jon can't understand why he would have a dream like that and feels frightened even though he doesn't know exactly what it means.

Mormont says that a sword is a small price to pay for being able to have his life and doesn't want any more arguments from Jon on whether or not he should accept the sword.

As Jon accepts the gift he thinks to himself that he won't forget that Eddard Stark is his father no matter how many swords the Night's Watch ends up giving him. Mormont instructs Jon to honor the sword through actions rather than words.

Jon wants to know if the blade has a name and Mormont tells him the sword was called Longclaw. Jon says that wolves have claws too so he's keeping the name and Mormont seems pleased to hear this.

Mormont says that Jon will have to carry Longclaw on his back until he's grown a bit more. He also advises Jon to start training with his new weapon in order to get better at two handed strokes. He says that Ser Endrew of Tarth should be able to help Jon practice.

It seems that Ser Endrew is coming to Castle Black to take over as master at arms because Thorne has been sent to King's Landing so that he can show King Joffrey the hand of the wight. Mormont is hopeful that the small council will be more receptive to hearing from a man like Thorne since Thorne is a highborn knight and he still somehow has a few friends.

Jon thinks that Mormont's raven sounds indignant as Mormont says this.

Mormont tells Jon that the other bonus to sending Thorne on a mission is that it keeps Thorne and Jon apart for awhile so that they can get over that business where Jon sort of tried to attack Thorne in the hall during dinner. Mormont makes it clear to Jon that he doesn't approve of what he did and reminds him that he can't act like a boy any longer now that he's a man of the Night's Watch.

After asking Jon if he's well enough to return to his duties, Mormont asks him to see about getting his dinner ready and then asks Jon to give him some privacy so that he can get some work done.

As Jon passes some guards, the men smile at him and tell him that he's earned his new sword. Jon is still in pain from his hand and he's starting to feel angry, but isn't sure why.

Jon's friends are waiting for him as he leaves Mormont's quarters and they're all excited to see the Valyrian steel.

As Jon shows off the blade to his friends, he's trying his best to sound proud and happy but isn't really feeling it. Pyp jokes that Jon is probably the first man of the Night's Watch to be honored after burning down the tower of the Lord Commander.

The other wight was taken out by a dozen swords but not before it had killed Ser Jeremy Rykker and four others. Ser Jeremy had actually decapitated the wight and still ended up dying because apparently he wasn't expecting the wight to be able to fight after that.

Thinking about Ser Jeremy puts Jon back in a dark mood and he ends up leaving abruptly by saying that he has to see to Mormont's supper.

Jon knows that his friends are well meaning but feels they can't understand everything he's currently dealing with. He's thinking about how scary it was to fight the wights and about all of the fighting that is going on in the Riverlands. He wonders how his friends could possibly comprehend how he's feeling.

When Jon returns to his cell, Ghost is there and he ends up showing the direwolf the pommel of the sword telling him that it's his likeness. Ghost licks the pommel and Jon thinks back to the day he found his direwolf and how he was separated from his brothers and sisters. Jon thinks that Ghost was driven out because he was different.

Sam comes to see Jon and Jon assumes that Sam wants to see the sword too, but Sam is really there to tell Jon that Maester Aemon wants to see him.

Sam tells Jon that his family has an ancestral Valyrian blade called Heartsbane and that his father let him hold it a few times, but Sam didn't like to because it scared him. He says that his brother Dickon will have it now.

Jon wants to know why Maester Aemon wants to see him and quickly deduces that Sam must have confessed that he spilled to Jon about Robb marching south. Sam admits it but protests that Maester Aemon basically already knew because the guy has a way of knowing and seeing and being observant as hell.

Jon is annoyed with Sam and basically says that he should have been able to do a better job at concealing his thoughts from a blind man. He tells Sam that he can find the way on his own and stalks away.

Jon finds Maester Aemon in the rookery and Maester Aemon ends up tasking Jon with helping him feed meat to the ravens. Jon says that Mormont's raven likes fruit and corn and Maester Aemon says that Mormont's raven is a rare bird indeed.

Master Aemon starts talking to Jon about ravens, pidgeons, doves, and Baelor the Blessed, and Jon is thinking to himself that he wishes Aemon would just get to the point already.

Maester Aemon tells Jon that the reason men of the Night's Watch are asked to not marry or have any kids is so that they won't have to deal with the conflict of love when it comes to doing their duty for the Watch.

Maester Aemon asks Jon what his father would do if he were forced to choose between love and honor. At first Jon wants to say that Ned would go with honor but then he thinks about his whole bastard status, not to mention the fact that Ned won't even speak Jon's mother's name. He tells Maester Aemon that Ned would ultimately do whatever is right. Maester Aemon says that most men are susceptible to love.

Maester Aemon says that at some point every man in the Night's Watch has to choose whether or not he's going to walk an honorable path, and Jon sees that Aemon is saying that Jon's choice is already upon him.

Maester Aemon says that he knows how much it hurts to choose, but Jon doesn't think Aemon or anyone understands where he's coming from.

Aemon basically tells Jon to wake up and lets him know that he isn't the first man of the Night's Watch to be in this position. Aemon mentions how he's personally had his vows tested three times and says with the last time he was too old for it to be much of a choice.

As Aemon gives details about his story Jon begins to realize that Aemon is a Targaryen. Jon asks Aemon to confirm his identity and Aemon explains who his father was in addition to mentioning a couple of other Targaryen relatives. Jon is kind of in disbelief that Aemon was born a prince.

Maester Aemon says that the choice is for Jon to make and that he isn't going to try to influence him. He tells Jon that he'll have to live with whatever choice he makes for the rest of his life just as Aemon has.

Edited August 22, 2015 by Avaleigh

[benteen]

Great chapter.  I remember the EW recap joking that it was "Reveal Your Secret Relative Day" on the Wall.  Aemon's reaction is different from the book and the show.  He has tears in his eyes when he talks about the death of the children in the book while on the show, he gets legit scary angry.  I liked the Aemon/Jon relationship a lot.

 

I do love the Old Bear fanboying a bit about Selmy mowing down those two City Watchmen.

 

Poor Ser Jeremy.

 

I remember someone on a GOT topic wondering what the big deal was about Jon receiving Longclaw when status doesn't really mean much on the Wall.  I couldn't figure out the argument.  Ignoring the fact that he had an awesome sword, Jon was given a weapon that can cut through anything and as long as it's well maintained, will literally last the rest of his life.  It's the best piece of steel on the Wall and along with the fact that it's a Valyrian steel sword of a noble house, it's a great thing to have. 

 

You know how awesome that sword was?  That despite his desperation to raise money, Jorah never sold it and left it behind when he fled Bear Island.  Tywin would probably have paid him a fortune for it.

[glowbug]

It seems like there's some possible heavy foreshadowing that Ned will become a wight. First Jon has a dream that Ned is a wight and then Martin is sure to tell us with Ser Jeremy's death that wights don't die from being decapitated which presumably means that a decapitated person can become a wight.

Edited August 22, 2015 by glowbug

[Holmbo]

Oh intriguing. But don't you have to be a wight before you get decapitated?

Perhaps if we knew the details of Robert Strong we would know.

[WearyTraveler]

Maybe because I came up with the theory of Jon actually walking all the way to the end of the WF crypts when he "dies" and finds Ned there to explain to him exactly who Jon is, I think Jon seeing Ned as a wight (which is nothing more than a dead person appearing to be "alive"), might be another little clue of what happens after Jon is stabbed.

 

Prophecies and dreams can't be taken to literally, after all: "The dragon has three heads" seems to point to three dragon riders, rather than a freakish dragon (even for ASOIAF's standards) with three actual heads.

[glowbug]

Oh intriguing. But don't you have to be a wight before you get decapitated?

Perhaps if we knew the details of Robert Strong we would know.

 

Maybe, but the conventional wisdom seems to be that in order to prevent the dead from rising you have to burn the bodies. No one has said decapitation also prevents them from rising. It might but it's not what we've been told. 

 

I just thought it was interesting that Martin went out of his way to give us an example of a wright surviving decapitation after Jon has the dream of Ned as a wight. Maybe it was a coincidence or a red herring, but it also might be foreshadowing what's to come. 

 

ETA: Thanks WearyTraveler. Totally missed that. :)

Edited August 22, 2015 by glowbug

[WearyTraveler]

I think your autocorrect is messing with you.

 

It's wight, not wright.  ;)

[Holmbo]

Or maybe se is just very into the Wright brothers.

[glowbug]

Thanks, WearyTraveler. Fixed the errors. I have insomnia and a one year old. I'm perpetually sleep deprived.  :)

[WearyTraveler]

I don't have children, but my grandparents on my mother's side had 12 (yes, twelve). So, as you can imagine, there have always been two or three babies (or more) in our family as I was growing up.  Just this year my cousin had a baby girl, and last year his brother had one, and two years before that, their sister had twins.

 

All this to say that I know what a handful they can be! :D

Edited August 22, 2015 by WearyTraveler