The Official Re-Read of Book 1: A Game Of Thrones

[Constantinople]

I think this my first really big "OH C'MON, NED!" (as Hand/very slow private investigator, I know I've already critiqued his parenting skills plenty) moment if he actually believes there were just harmless mummers wandering around the tunnels, especially so soon after learning Varys is both a master of disguise and knows secret ways to navigate the castle. We'll have to see in his own PoV chapters, but idr this warning from Arya ever coming up in his inner monologue. Then again, the Littlefinger/Renly exchange about Tyrion's betting habits in Ned's previous chapter, which Constantinople already pointed out, is also a pretty terrible miss. But really, mummers just happening to wander around in the castle's secret passageways? Sure, Ned.

I think that's how most read it, including myself, most of the time. However, given that this is an Ayra POV, not a Ned POV, it's possible that Ned is telling one of those "Don't worry, everything will be OK" lies that parents tell children when they don't want to worry the kids, don't know what else to say and don't want to tell the truth.

Of course, I can understand why people would disagree with that interpretation since I pretty much do myself and given that

 

• Neither the book nor the show did a good job of conveying the sense that Ned is lying to try to comfort his daughter, as opposed to just mindlessly dismissing her observations, and

   

• Ned so often behaves stupidly.

[Avaleigh]

I do sort of like how Arya kind of has the jump on Varys and Illyrio in this chapter without even knowing it. Imagine if Varys knew that Ned Stark's daughter had overheard a private conversation that he was having with Illyrio? I love that they have no idea that she was there because it shows that Varys doesn't know everything and that even that Master of Whisperers can be spied on without him picking up on it. 

 

I think what I'm coming to again and again with Ned is that he doesn't want to think too deeply about things. How helpful might it have been if he'd just asked Arya a few questions? 

 

Meanwhile Arya should have pointed out that one of the men looked familiar to her.

[Avaleigh]

Eddard VIII

 

During a meeting with the Small Council, Ned is trying to get Robert to understand that it wouldn't be right to kill Daenerys Targaryen and insists that she's still only a child.

 

Robert argues that Daenerys is pregnant and needs to be taken out once and for all. He adds that Viserys has to go as well. He repeats that he wants them dead.

 

The rest of the members of the Small Council are trying to pretend that they are anywhere but there and not one speaks up to support what Ned is saying. Ned feels totally alone but can't help himself from telling Robert that his name will be forever dishonored if he does something like this.

 

Robert is fine with having to bear the blame and simply wants it done and thinks it should have happened sooner. He sees the Targaryens as a threat hanging over his head and he wants that threat to finally be eliminated. Ned disagrees that they're a real threat so Varys finally speaks up and says that he hasn't been bringing lies to the Small Council and that Daenerys definitely is pregnant according to Jorah Mormont.

 

Ned gives sensible reasons for why this news might not mean anything to their side and says that even if Dany's child defies the odds, that they'd still have the Narrow Sea between them so unless the Dothraki change how they feel about the sea they shouldn't have reason to worry.

 

The King asks Ned if he's really counseling him to do nothing until the Targaryens actually land in Westeros and Ned comments that Aegon didn't exactly go around conquering when he was a baby. Even if Dany's child is a threat it would theoretically be a threat that wouldn't be an issue for them to deal with for roughly twenty years or so.

 

Robert finally decides to turn his attention to the other members of the Small Council and wants to know why nobody else has anything to say.

 

Varys says that he understands where Ned is coming from but says that they all have to sometimes do terrible things in order to ensure the safety of the realm. Renly thinks that they should have had Viserys and Dany killed years ago and then brings up the fact that Lord Arryn counseled Robert against killing the remaining Targaryens years ago. Ned tells Renly that Jon Arryn was right to make that call.

 

"Mercy is never a mistake, Lord Renly," Ned replied. "On the Trident, Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert's friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death, Roose Bolton urged us to cut his throat, but your brother said, ‘I will not kill a man for loyalty, nor for fighting well,' and sent his own maester to tend Ser Barristan's wounds." He gave the king a long cool look. "Would that man were here today."

 

Robert at least has the grace to look ashamed of himself after Ned says this but claims that the situations aren't the same.

 

Even though Ned knows he should probably stop talking he can't help himself. He points out that the situations are indeed different and that they're talking about murdering a fourteen year old girl this time. He then asks Robert what they fought in the Rebellion for if not to put an end to horrible shit like the murder of children.

 

Robert snaps that they fought to put an end to the Targaryens and Ned just lays it out there for Robert and tells him that the Robert he knew wasn't scared of Rhaegar Targaryen but this new Robert, this king, has no balls and is actually scared of a child that hasn't even been born yet.

 

Robert face flushes and he basically warns Ned to shut the fuck up and asks him if he's forgotten who the King is? Ned doesn't miss a beat and pointedly asks Robert if he isn't the one who has forgotten.

 

Robert doesn't want to hear anymore and pretty much asks everyone present to cast their votes. Renly is the first to speak up and insists that Daenerys must be killed. Varys says that it's sad and stuff but they don't really have a choice.

 

Ser Barristan Selmy has been quiet this entire time but when it's time to give his opinion he sides with Ned and says that there is no honor in killing an enemy when the enemy is in utero.

 

Grand Maester Pycelle sides with Robert but in doing so also points out that if they don't kill Daenerys now that thousands might very well die if she ever ends up invading. He asks if it won't be better in the long run if she's sacrificed so that thousands of people might live?

 

Littlefinger is the last to speak and he actually has to keep himself from yawning before giving his opinion that they just need to make it happen and get it over with. He compares the situation to being in bed with an unattractive woman and says that waiting won't somehow make the situation better or the woman more attractive. His language shocks Selmy.

 

Satisfied that most of the Small Council has sided with him, Robert now wants to know who they should use to kill Daenerys.

 

Renly suggests Mormont since he's there and already wants a royal pardon anyway.

 

Varys says that using Mormont is probably a bad idea and that he likely wouldn't get away with it anyway. Varys thinks poison is a more sensible option and suggests that if they use the right one like Tears of Lys that Khal Drogo might not even know that poison was used.

 

At the mention of Tears of Lys, Pycelle's closed eyes fly open and he kind of glares at Varys for a moment.

 

Robert whines about how cowardly it is to use poison and Ned is like bitch, please, with your talk about honor, we've already established that there is no honor in killing a fourteen year old girl.

 

Ned then dares to tell Robert that if Dany must be killed that Robert owes it to her to do the deed himself. He says that Robert should be able to look into her eyes, hear her words, see any tears she might shed, etc.

 

Robert is pissed when Ned says this especially since he realizes that Ned is perfectly serious. He goes to take a drink of wine only to find his flagon empty so he throws it across the room and it shatters against the wall. He doesn't want to hear any more arguments and just wants the matter settled.

 

Ned says that he isn't going to be a party to this murder and Robert finally understands that Ned is flat out defying him. The King angrily tells Ned that Ned will do as his King commands or he'll find himself a Hand who will.

 

Ned doesn't so much as blink and tells Robert that he wishes the next Hand luck with the job. He then takes off his badge, sets it in front of Robert, and tells him that he thought Robert was a better man than this.

 

Robert's face is still flushed and he sharply orders Ned to get out. He says Ned should run back to Winterfell and says that if he ever looks on his face again that he'll have his head on a spike. Ned bows to Robert and leaves the room.

 

As Ned is walking out he can hear that the discussion about who to send to kill Daenerys has resumed with Pycelle suggesting that they employ one of the Faceless Men from Braavos. Littlefinger says the Faceless Men are way too expensive and suggests that a Faceless Man would cost more than hiring an army of sellswords and that's what the rate would be for offing somebody like a merchant. Littlefinger shudders to think what price the Faceless Men would ask for killing a princess.

 

Back in the Tower of the Hand, Ned informs Vayon Poole that he is no longer the Hand and that they'll all be returning to Winterfell ASAP. Poole tells Ned that it'll take them a couple of weeks to ready themselves for a journey but Ned says they don't have that kind of time and mentions that Robert had said something about wanting to see his head on a spike, so they probably shouldn't linger.

 

At first Ned thinks that Robert's anger will cool down but then he starts thinking about how deeply Robert still hates Rhaegar Targaryen all these years later. Ned then remembers that Robert still doesn't know about the shitstorm matter that his wife is involved in wife Tyrion Lannister and thinks that Robert should be hearing about that eventually. He also wonders about what Cersei will do when she hears.

 

Ned thinks it'll be safer if he and his daughters go on ahead of most of the others and then tells Poole not to tell anyone other than Jory about their plans.

 

Ned thinks about how this is probably all for the best and is happy to be able to return to Winterfell, his sons, and Catelyn. He hopes that they'll be able to have another son and thinks to himself how he's been dreaming of snow and the wolfswood lately.

 

Even though Ned is happy to leave he's also feeling angry and frustrated. He thinks that Robert and his Small Council are going to beggar the realm if they haven't already and worse he thinks that the Lannisters are in the position where they might have the realm practically given to them on a platter. He also still wants to find out more about who killed Jon Arryn and why.

 

As he's considering his options, Ned wonders if he should travel to Winterfell by sea so that he might stop by Dragonstone and talk with Stannis Baratheon in person.

 

Ned feels like he wouldn't even necessarily know what to do if he were to discover the truth about what happened with Jon Arryn. He thinks to himself that some secrets are best hidden and how some are too dangerous to share even with those who are loved and trusted. Ned then takes the knife that Catelyn gave him and wonders again about the reason behind Bran's attempted murder.

 

Ned's opinion of Robert is so shaken at this point that he wonders if there's any way Robert might have been part of the plot.

 

Ned has Poole summoned to him again and has decided that he wants to be on the fastest ship so that he can leave as soon as he can. As Poole is leaving, Tomard goes to Ned and says that Littlefinger is outside and would like a word.

 

Littlefinger says he won't be there long as he has dinner plans with the Stokeworths and Ned tells Petyr that there's no one whose company he desires less than his.

 

Littlefinger tells Ned that he's sure Ned can come up with a few people that he dislikes even more than he dislikes Littlefinger such as Cersei and Varys. Littlefinger mentions that Robert thinks that Ned is totally ungrateful. Ned doesn't offer Littlefinger a seat so Petyr makes himself comfortable anyway and lets Ned know that he was able to successfully talk the Small Council into not seeking out the services of a Faceless Man.

 

It seems that the new plan will be to quietly put the word out that a lordship will be granted to whoever ends up killing Daenerys. Ned is pretty grossed out that they're going to hand out a title to an assassin but Littlefinger doesn't really see what the big deal is and makes it clear that if they'd hired a Faceless Man that Dany would for sure be dead so Littlefinger's counsel was actually helpful to her here.

 

No way is Ned believing that Littlefinger was just trying to help Daenerys and wants to know what sort of fool Littlefinger takes him for. Littlefinger responds that he does indeed think that Ned is a huge fool and actually laughs in his face. Ned is annoyed and wants to know if Littlefinger is always so amused at the thought of murder.

 

"It's not murder I find amusing, Lord Stark, it's you. You rule like a man dancing on rotten ice. I daresay you will make a noble splash. I believe I heard the first crack this morning."

 

Ned says that if it was the first crack, it was also the last and flatly lets Littlefinger know that he's over it. He's had enough and he's going home where he belongs.

 

Littlefinger wants to know when Ned is leaving and then says that if Ned is still there later that evening that they'll be able to go to the brothel that Jory has been searching for but hasn't been able to find.

[Lady S.]

I think that's how most read it, including myself, most of the time. However, given that this is an Ayra POV, not a Ned POV, it's possible that Ned is telling one of those "Don't worry, everything will be OK" lies that parents tell children when they don't want to worry the kids, don't know what else to say and don't want to tell the truth.

That's why I said we'd have to check Ned's own upcoming PoVs to be sure. ;) But yes, Avaleigh, a good detective would have at least questioned her more even without letting on just how serious this info really was. It feels more striking to me now when thinking about how this comes right after his own secret meeting with Varys. It seems like his main takeaway is how weird Varys is, but Varys being a master of disguise and able to sneak around the castle without being noticed by guards are both huge takeaways, even moreso imo than Tyrion being known to bet on Jaime, that a competent detective would have taken note of. Problem is, Westeros doesn't really have any trained detectives and an even greater shortage of objective investigators, so Ned's loyalty to Bobby is kinda a good quality here since most of the higher thinkers are more out for themselves first. In that sense, I can understand Maester Luwin endorsing the plan to have Ned look into Jon Arryn's death, but they were all painfully underestimating the webs of schemes down In KL.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Lady S.

[benteen]

I suspect the show didn't put Ser Barristan on the Small Council because they wanted Ned to stand alone in his objection to killing Dany.

[Avaleigh]

I love the detail of Littlefinger having some idea of how much it costs to hire a Faceless Man. I totally want to know at what stage in his career he made inquiries and who it was that he wanted to have killed. It does bring up confusing questions about the Faceless Men though given what we've seen of how it works on the show. It seems like they aren't charging people huge amounts of money it seems more like they're willing to kill people who've screwed other people over in addition to granting death to people who no longer want to live. On the show I don't think we've heard anything about rich men employing faceless men. If it were affordable within reason for a rich man you'd think that Tywin would have hired one to kill Aerys and that's just one of several examples. 

 

Another small detail I like is our first (I think) mention of Lady Tandy trying to marry off Lollys. 

 

I love what a boss Ned is in this scene. Robert so isn't expecting it and Ned basically said that if anybody was the eunuch in the room it's Robert! Lol, it's so awesome and startling I didn't remember feeling so "Hell yeah, Ned!" I don't think I felt that way on the show either but I'm tempted to look for that scene on youtube just to make a comparison.

 

I also love that Barristan was able to stand with Ned and against the king. Can anyone refresh my memory and tell me if book Barristan ever told Dany that Ned stood up for her here? I want to say he did but maybe it happened on the show? 

 

I like that Ned had the sense to want to travel by sea. I only wonder if his hasty exit would his men who are left behind in a dangerous position. 

 

I think I was experiencing some cognitive dissonance with Ned and Littlefinger towards the end. Maybe it's because of the way I responded to Ned in the Small Council scene or maybe it's because I know what's coming but I totally bristled at the way Littlefinger called Ned a fool to his face and laughed at him. I know I've called Ned a fool in the past for certain things but damn it if it doesn't irritate me reading someone like Littlefinger saying it even if it's true. It's like 'Hey, you're not allowed to go there, dude, only fans of the series are allowed to talk about what a fool Ned Stark is.' ;-p

 

I wish Ned could have at least punched Littlefinger in the face at some point before he died if nothing else. 

[Lady S.]

I also love that Barristan was able to stand with Ned and against the king. Can anyone refresh my memory and tell me if book Barristan ever told Dany that Ned stood up for her here? I want to say he did but maybe it happened on the show?

Yes, I remember that somewhere in Storm. It never came up on the show, as I recall, which makes some sense with tv Barry not being in this scene.

 

So, Ned VIII. Once again I think Ned has a point about killing Dany, as he did back in Ned II, but he's still going about this entirely the wrong way by focusing on honor and shame and appeals to Bob's ever-dwindling better nature, instead of the very valid logical arguments. 1. As no Dothraki khal has ever even attempted to lead an overseas conquest, the immediacy of this threat feels pretty exaggerated (exaggerated due to Bob's Targ-killing boner above all else). And even if Drogo did, Stannis could still defeat them at sea before they ever landed, because people afraid of sea water using hired ships should be no match for a guy who defeated

Vic and his

ironborn at sea. 2. Can this not wait until Dany's foal is actually born? As Ned points out, a girl child or a miscarriage or stillbirth or early childhood death would be enough to neutralize this particular potential threat. All of those possibilities are common enough in the 7k and I think the Westerosi would expect an even higher rate of failed pregnancies and infant deaths among these "savages". As we later see, trying and failing to kill pregnant Dany only enrages Drogo. 3. Jorah really isn't the most reliable source, he probably already has conflicted loyalties, and spying for a pardon reminds me of modern day jailhouse snitches squealing for a plea bargain. This proven by the fact that someone, either Jorah or Varys, is inflating Drogo's numbers in the reports to Bob. Checking Ned II, Bob says Drogo has 100,000 men, but we know from Dany's chapters that most of his khalasar are not warriors, and the number given there is 40,000 men. 4. I find it very unlikely that the big name Targ loyalists would think Viserys leading Dothraki raiders was a good cause to sign up for right from the start. The Tyrells are in bed both literally and figuratively with House Baratheon, and have a history of being loyal only to the winning side once they're in power. Doran Martell has been sitting quiet for decades and commands much less men than the Tyrells, men he's cautious about openly committing to a war. And people like the Darrys or

the folks at Crackclaw Point

are pretty negligible considerations on their own, and Raymun Darry's uneasy behavior in Ned III could indicate he's rightly afraid of openly crossing Bobby.

 

That said, I'd like to advance my theory to connect this scene to what we saw of Varys in the previous chapter. Varys needs the Stark-Lannister conflict simmered down for the time being and the twincest not to be spilled too soon, and needs Drogo to get a move on if he's ever going to invade. The former is accomplished by the obviously shifty wine seller failing to poison Dany, and the latter would have been if Ned had actually left and not been distracted by Littlefinger. I believe these two objectives were the real impetus for Varys riling up Bobby with this news right away. He has to know that the bloody murder of Rhaegar's kids caused a cooling in their bromance, and that there's already tension between Ned and Bob after the wolf and Mycah incident, so Ned's resignation here is a pretty predictable outcome.

 

Other observations:

• Of Bobby B's many unattractive qualities already on full display, I think referring to Dany as a whore is particularly unattractive to me.
• Renly's nonchalant shrugging is a bit too casual for me, but not nearly as tasteless as Bob's attitude so I don't really hold it against him. Nonchalance is his attitude to almost everything, but it's interesting to me that his line about how they should have been killed years ago is one of the few of his to make it from book 1 to s1 of the show. So I think even the more sensitive tv Renly would have killed Stan if and when it came to battle between them.
• This chapter marks our first mention of Roose Bolton, who wanted to kill Barry for the crime of fighting for Rhaegar and not being an oathbreaker. Showing the Boltons as fun guys right from the start.
• I can understand why Bob quibbling about the cowardice of poisoning is the last straw for Ned. That's a real oh, stfu line for me. 
• Also our first mention of the Faceless Men, but I wouldn't really consider Littlefinger's word here to mean much. In addition to being a pathological liar, it's possible he misunderstood the high cost of their assassinations, since Arya's time with them shows them as more concerned with figurative prices than monetary values.
• For my critique list of Ned's parenting, I'll just say I think he should have had Jory and Vayon Poole get the girls out even if he's sticking around. Even if there's not a ship available, having them ride out of the city should still be something. With the time warping wormhole evident in Cat V, maybe they could even make it to Riverrun or at least the Crossroads Inn before war fully broke out.

ETA:

I wish Ned could have at least punched Littlefinger in the face at some point before he died if nothing else.

That's why I treasure his almost killing Littlefinger outside his brothel, even if his smarminess and perceived wild goose chase and insult to Cat don't really warrant death. I hope book Petyr at least had a genuine moment of terror there, which I think is likely considering the outcome the last time a big Stark dude pointed a blade at him.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

I am again struck by how Renly and Littlefinger appear to be on the same page. The overall demeanor of both men seems very similar to me. I think initially had Renly pegged as a nice enough guy but he's kind of slimy and smarmy the more I think about it. I still haven't forgotten his Lancel moment where he's asking already drunk Robert if he wants any more wine. Renly wants the Targs dead because he likely already has thoughts of his own claim lingering in the back of his head. 

 

Interesting about the inflated numbers for the Dothraki. I have to think that's Varys deliberately giving incorrect numbers. For what purpose would Jorah give false info like that? 

 

Nice call, Lady S, about Varys knowing right well that this would be a huge trigger for Ned. 

 

Roose Bolton probably still thinks that it was a mistake to let Barristan live and considering how certain things turned out I suppose keeping him alive was ultimately something of a risk. 

 

Yeah, Robert made me roll my eyes with his concerns about poison being cowardly. And could it be any more obvious that this guy is always trying to drink his troubles away?

 

I liked the moment where it's observed that everyone on the Small Council sort of wishes that they could be somewhere else. I certainly know how it feels to want to be elsewhere during a meeting. 

 

The main reason I took Littlefinger's word for the price of a Faceless Man is that it was Pycelle's suggestion and Pycelle doesn't contradict Littlefinger when Littlefinger brings up the cost as being the main objection. Littlefinger is pretty specific too when saying that it costs more money the more prominent the person is. Tyrion also seems to think that Faceless Men are available for purchase. Then there's the whole business of whether or not Euron ever employed one. No way were Euron's aims all righteous and noble so he couldn't have swayed them based on cause; IMO if he hired one then to me it's likely that he paid a huge sum or was able to make some sort of trade.  

 

I too think that Sansa and Arya should have been put on a ship along with Jory, Jeyne, and Poole. Every time I see Vayon Poole's name I think about how little innocent time poor Jeyne has left. When I think of what a sobbing mess she was at the tourney I can only imagine how horrified she was when she was first turned out by Littlefinger. 

[Brn2bwild]

 

I also love that Barristan was able to stand with Ned and against the king. Can anyone refresh my memory and tell me if book Barristan ever told Dany that Ned stood up for her here? I want to say he did but maybe it happened on the show?

 

Book Barristan does tell Dany about Ned in ADWD.  Unlike in the show, Dany just doubled down on her hatred of the Starks.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Brn2bwild

[Lady S.]

The main reason I took Littlefinger's word for the price of a Faceless Man is that it was Pycelle's suggestion and Pycelle doesn't contradict Littlefinger when Littlefinger brings up the cost as being the main objection. Littlefinger is pretty specific too when saying that it costs more money the more prominent the person is. Tyrion also seems to think that Faceless Men are available for purchase. Then there's the whole business of whether or not Euron ever employed one. No way were Euron's aims all righteous and noble so he couldn't have swayed them based on cause; IMO if he hired one then to me it's likely that he paid a huge sum or was able to make some sort of trade.

Euron also claims to have once had a dragon egg

, which is a very valuable trade indeed. Has Tyrion mentioned the Faceless Men before this chapter? I have vague memories of his saying he wanted a Faceless Man to take out Cersei or Tywin, but he would have never seriously inquired after that before his break from them after being put on trial for regicide. I think it's possible he and Littlefinger are both going off secondhand info. Maybe young Petyr wanted to off Hoster Tully or one of Cat's Stark suitors but figured it was beyond his price range and resorted to this crazily elaborate scheming instead.

 

And I think book Pycelle really is half asleep in these meetings, and in any case is not that on the ball even at his best, he only looks more competent later because Cersei going off the deep end would make anyone look better. I don't understand why he actually gave Ned the big book of baby names if he knew Jon Arryn was investigating Cersei's kids. Maybe he assumed some meathead Northerner would be too thick to actually read through the Baratheon section and spot the pattern there, but still, why risk it? Easy enough just to say he misplaced the book or can't recall which it was or better yet, that it was never returned to him and Lysa stole it when she ran away. Anything other than actually giving him something Jon Arryn thought of as a clue. Even if Littlefinger or Varys could also provide the name of the book, seems like Pycelle is the only source of the actual hard copy.

[Hecate7]

My what if scenario for this is what if the direwolves had attacked Tyrion and he'd accidentally been killed? How would House Lannister have responded? Would Tywin be relieved? Would he want revenge? Would the Starks attempt to do anything to try to make it up? Would Ned still remain Hand after something like that? 

 

The Stark direwolves accidentally kill Tyrion in front of two Stark brothers and the Maester? Nobody would believe it. The war would still happen.

 

The story would be that the Starks are mad. Arya Stark set her wolves on Joffrey, and Robb set them on Tyrion and killed the Lannister heir apparent. A counter-story would circulate that the Lannisters tried to kill Bran Stark and that Tyrion was probably torn to pieces for his role in that. Robb would cling to the truth, but nobody would believe it--they'd either embrace the Lannister version or the Tully version, but not the true story.

 

Tywin would wipe out House Stark without a trace, even if he was secretly delighted at Tyrion's demise. The direwolves never attacked Theon, and so I don't think their attacking Tyrion was forshadowing of him being any threat to Robb or Bran. I think it was in response to his extreme physical peculiarity. Not only is he the only dwarf they've ever seen, but he's also a chimera--a Lannister with a Targaryen inside him, or vice versa. He's got two complete sets of DNA swirling around inside him. That's got to smell quite strange from a wolf's perspective. Mind you, almost every tortoise-shell cat in the world is a chimera, but I'm not sure how common the phenomenon is among wolves.

[DigitalCount]

Not only is he the only dwarf they've ever seen, but he's also a chimera--a Lannister with a Targaryen inside him, or vice versa. He's got two complete sets of DNA swirling around inside him. That's got to smell quite strange from a wolf's perspective. Mind you, almost every tortoise-shell cat in the world is a chimera, but I'm not sure how common the phenomenon is among wolves.

I don't personally agree with this, partially because I disagree with AJT (I've never seen Tyrion's lineage as a mystery that needs to be solved) and partially because, well, isn't that everyone

other than the Barannisters

? Robb, for example, has Stark and Tully in him. In fact, I'd say he probably "smelled" more consistent, not less, since both his parents were Lannisters pre-marriage.

Otherwise, I agree.

Edited June 30, 2015 by DigitalCount

[Avaleigh]

Catelyn VI

 

The party has reached the Bloody Gate and Ser Donnel Waynwood tells Catelyn that she ought to have let them know that she was coming as they would have sent an escort to see to the safety of her group. He says that the high road isn't as safe as it once was and Catelyn says that unfortunately they had to learn that the hard way.

 

As she mulls over the fact that six men have died so far in order to bring her here, Catelyn thinks to herself that she sometimes feels as though she has a heart of stone as she realizes that she can't find it in herself to cry for them and realizes that even their names are already fading from her memory.

 

Ser Donnel says that the mountain clans have grown more bold since the death of Jon Arryn and that if it were up to Ser Donnel he'd take a hundred men into the mountains to deal with these clansmen once and for all but Lysa Arryn has apparently forbidden it. She wouldn't even let any of the knights of the Vale participate in the recent tourney in honor of the Hand. She wants all of the soldiers at the Vale kept close but Ser Donnel doesn't understand why.

 

He suddenly remembers that he's talking to Lysa's sister and tells Catelyn that he isn't trying to offend. Catelyn puts him at ease and tells him that she isn't offended by people speaking frankly. She then thinks to herself that Lysa is keeping the soldiers of the Vale close because of her fear of the Lannisters.

 

Catelyn's thoughts turn to Tyrion and she sees that he and the sellsword Bronn are looking like pretty good friends these days. It seems that Tyrion has even scored the coveted shadowskin cloak after playing dice with Marillion.

 

Catelyn sees that Tyrion doesn't seem particularly fearful and again wonders to herself if she might be wrong and Tyrion really is innocent after all. She reflects again on how six men have already died to bring her this far so it really is too late to turn back.

 

Another concern for Catelyn is Ser Rodrik who seems to be feverish from the wounds he received in the fighting. Rodrik can barely stay on his horse and he has to be tied to it in order to make sure that he doesn't fall. Bronn actually tries to get Catelyn to leave Rodrik on the road to die but Catelyn flatly refuses and it is Marillion who is ultimately assigned to watch over Rodrik to make sure that he doesn't fall off of his horse. Catelyn tells Ser Donnel that she'll want their maester to tend to Rodrik's wounds but Ser Donnel informs Catelyn that Lysa has forbidden Maester Coleman from leaving the Eyrie. They have a septon who will be able to see to Ser Rodrik though.

 

At the Bloody Gate they are met by Catelyn's uncle Brynden Tully and both uncle and niece are happy see each other again.

 

Brynden asks if Lysa knows that she was coming and Catelyn says that she didn't have time to send word.

 

The party pass through the Bloody Gate and Catelyn takes in the breathtaking view of the Vale of Arryn.

 

When Brynden says that they won't make it to the Mountain until that evening and that the climb up to the Eyrie will take another day, Ser Rodrik tells Catelyn that he can't go on. Catelyn is completely understanding and grateful that he was able to escort her as far as he has and decides that he and most of the others should be able to rest and recover their strength at the Bloody Gate. Brynden will escort Catelyn and Tyrion the rest of the way.

 

Bronn and Marillion both insist on coming as well. Catelyn doesn't really want Bronn to come but knows that the party wouldn't have made it without him so she feels like it would be a little odd to tell him that he can't come after how he's helped them. At the same time she notes that he didn't really ask her permission to come anyway.

 

Once they begin traveling again, Bryden and Catelyn ride next to each other and she gives him the lowdown on everything that has been going on from Lysa's letter to Bran's fall to the attack with the knife.

 

Catelyn thinks about how her uncle has always been a good listener and that he is good at listening to anyone with the notable exception of his brother Hoster Tully. She also thinks about how her uncle earned his nickname 'The Blackfish'.

 

Catelyn remembers that the war didn't officially end until she and her sister were both married to Ned and Jon Arryn. It was during their double wedding that Brynden announced that he would leave Riverrrun to attend Lysa and her husband and it seems that he and Hoster have been estranged ever since.

 

It was to Brynden that Catelyn, Lysa, Edmure, and even Littlefinger would run in excitement or for comfort and Brynden who would listen to them and laugh and try to make them feel better.

 

After Catelyn finishes telling Brynden everything, he says that Hoster must be told because if the Lannisters do march, Riverrun is likely going to be the first to feel the brunt of it all.

 

Brynden tells his niece that the mood in the Vale is angry due to Jon Arryn's death and the suspicious manner of it. People won't say that he was murdered but it's definitely something that is presently on everyone's mind. They're also smarting over the fact that Robert Arryn was passed over for the title of Warden of the East since it's a title that the Arryns have held for nearly three hundred years.

 

There are other problems in the Vale too like the fact that the heir is a sickly six year old boy who cries if his dolls are taken away.

 

Also, now that Lysa is single, there are a bunch of suitors lined up and this has caused its own sort of drama. Brynden doesn't think that Lysa really wants to marry again and is mostly just jerking these guys around. Catelyn wants to give her sister the benefit of the doubt and says that she can't blame Lysa for wanting to have a choice in who her husband is this time.

 

Brynden seems concerned that Lysa will want to rule until her son comes of age and Catelyn doesn't see what is so wrong with this stating that a woman can rule just as well as a man. Brynden's issue doesn't seem to be with thinking that women are incapable of ruling. He tells Catelyn that she and Lysa are different and that Lysa probably isn't going to be as helpful as Catelyn hopes she will be. Catelyn asks her uncle what he means and he tells her that the Lysa who returned from King's Landing is a very different person than the young girl she'd been when she was first married.

 

While both Tully daughters were married off for political reasons, Catelyn's marriage turned out to be a lot happier than Lysa's and Lysa's struggles with having children seem to have done a real number on her overall.

 

Brynden knows that Lysa isn't going to appreciate having a Lannister brought to her doorstep and questions why Tyrion is armed with weapons. Catelyn is uncomfortable now and simply says that Tyrion is still her prisoner even if he's armed and doesn't happen to be tied up for the moment. She also says that she thinks Lysa will want Tyrion to answer for his crimes, and Brynden makes it clear that he thinks Catelyn is wrong with how Lysa is going to respond to this situation.

 

They finally reach the Gates of the Moon and get their first glimpse of the Eyrie high above. The decide to spend the night here and will make the ascent the next day when it's light.

 

Tyrion wants to know how they're going to get all the way up there and is told that there are steps that are carved into the mountain. They won't be able to take horses but they'll be able to use mules that will take them as far as the waycastle Sky. After that they'll be on foot the rest of the way unless Tyrion wants to take a ride in a basket with all of the food and other supplies. Tyrion says that if everyone else is going on foot then he feels he'll have to as well citing his pride.

 

Catelyn is annoyed to hear Tyrion speak of pride and rants for a moment about how the Lannisters are basically arrogance personified and are always lusting for power.

 

"My brother is undoubtedly arrogant," Tyrion Lannister replied. "My father is the soul of avarice, and my sweet sister Cersei lusts for power with every waking breath. I, however, am innocent as a little lamb. Shall I bleat for you?" He grinned.

 

Nestor Royce meets up with them and informs Catelyn that her sisters has requested that she make the ascent to the Eyrie that evening and says the others can come up the next day. Brynden thinks that a night climb is way too dangerous but an experienced guide named Mya Stone assures Brynden that she's made the ascent at night a bunch of times and that Catelyn will be safe traveling with her.

 

When Mya introduces herself, it's all Catelyn can do to not visibly react upon hearing that the girl is a bastard because it reminds her of Jon Snow and this makes her feel both guilty and angry. The moment passes though and Catelyn tells Mya that she's willing to put herself in Mya's hands.

 

Tyrion is escorted off to have dinner in a tower cell and Catelyn goes along with Mya to begin the ascent.

 

Catelyn soon realizes that Mya isn't even going to use so much as a torch saying that the moon and stars will provide all of the light that she needs. Mya suggests that Catelyn close her eyes if she gets too scared and Catelyn talks a bit about how she was born a Tully and married a Stark so that means she doesn't scare easily.

 

Catelyn asks Mya about this Mychel person she's been speaking of and Mya says that Mychel Redfort is her "love" and is a squire to Ser Lyn Corbray. Mya says that she and Mychel will get married in a year or so after Mychel becomes a knight. Catelyn thinks to herself that there's no way that a bastard like Mya will ever be able to marry a Redfort. When the girl starts talking about this Catelyn can't help but be reminded of dreamy and innocent Sansa.

 

They reach the first of the waycastles, Stone, and stop for a bit to eat. As they continue the ascent, Catelyn sees that the journey here is more dangerous, the wind is more powerful, and the trail is beginning to steepen. When they get to the waycastle of Snow, they're given fresh mules and are also offered refreshments but Mya thinks it's better if they keep going.

 

Once they're above the waycastle Snow, the wind really kicks into high gear and Catelyn finds herself trying not to look down. Even Mya admits that the wind can be scary here and they have to dismount in order to lead the mules across a narrow path with a sharp drop on either side.

 

Catelyn climbed stiffly from the shadows and looked at the path ahead; twenty feet long and close to three feet wide, but with a precipitous drop to either side. She could hear the wind shrieking. Mya stepped lightly out, her mule following as calmly as if they were crossing a bailey. It was her turn. Yet no sooner had she taken her first step than fear caught Catelyn in its jaws. She could feel the emptiness, the vast black gulfs of air that yawned around her. She stopped, trembling, afraid to move. The wind screamed at her and wrenched at her cloak, trying to pull her over the edge. Catelyn edged her foot backward, the most timid of steps, but the mule was behind her, and she could not retreat. I am going to die here, she thought. She could feel cold sweat trickling down her back.

 

 

Mya calls out to Catelyn but poor Cat is almost frozen in fear and can barely speak. She tells Mya that she can't cross. Mya assures her that she can and tells her to look at how wide the path is but Catelyn is way too freaked out at this point and says that she doesn't want to look. Mya tells her that she's coming back for her and she goes back so that she can lead Catelyn over to the other side.

 

They make it to the last of the waycastles, Sky, and finish the last leg of the ascent on foot. Mya says they should be there in an hour. Seeing what the rest of the climb will entail, Catelyn says that she'll opt for riding in a basket with the turnips saying that Tullys have more sense than Lannisters when it comes to stuff like this.

 

When Catelyn finally reaches the Eyrie she is greeted by Ser Vardis Egen, captain of Jon Arryn's household guard, and Maester Coleman.

 

Maester Coleman tells Catelyn that he was given orders to wake Lysa the moment Catelyn has arrived and Catelyn is a little annoyed that Lysa has been enjoying a luxurious sleep while Catelyn has been making a tiring and frightening journey on no sleep at the insistence of her sister.

 

Catelyn goes to see Lysa in her solar and Lysa gets up to hug her and tell her how good it is to see her again.

 

It's been five years since the sisters have last seen each other and Catelyn thinks to herself that the years haven't exactly been kind to Lysa. Even though Lysa is two years younger she looks like the eldest between the two of them these days and she's gained weight in her face and body. Cat lies and tells her that she looks well just a little tired even though Catelyn is the one who hasn't had any sleep.

 

Lysa looks around the room and asks the others to leave her to speak with her sister. As soon as they are alone, Lysa snaps at Catelyn for bringing Tyrion there without her permission and says that she doesn't want to be dragged into whatever quarrels Cat has with the Lannisters.

 

Catelyn is looking at Lysa like Lysa has lost her damned mind and reminds Lysa that she's the one who started this mess in the first place by sending her that letter full of accusations about the Lannisters.

 

Lysa claims that she was just trying to warn Cat to stay away from them and that she certainly didn't want any fighting started over it.

 

Little Robert Arryn comes in and interrupts their conversation and Lysa begins fussing over him and asks him if he remembers his Aunt Catelyn although Catelyn hasn't seen him since he was a baby. Lysa doesn't want to talk about the Lannister situation in front of Robert and tells Catelyn that she's scaring the boy.

 

Lysa goes and tells Robert that nothing will hurt him, that they're safe in the Eyrie, and then begins to breastfeed him in front of a shocked and disturbed Catelyn who suddenly understands why there is so much uneasiness in the Vale when this is what is going on with Jon's heir. She also notes that even though her nephew is three years older than her youngest son Rickon that Rickon is bigger, stronger, and easily more fierce.

 

Angry that Lysa seems content in doing nothing more than hiding in the Eyrie, she tells her that she's a fool if she thinks that the Lannisters are just going to forget about her.

 

Lysa says even if the Lannisters do bring their army that the Eyrie is impregnable, but Catelyn argues that no castle is 100% impregnable. Catelyn thinks to herself that Brynden was right to warn her about Lysa.

 

Lysa wonders what should be done with Tyrion Lannister and Robert Arryn tears himself away from his mother's breast for a moment to ask if Tyrion is a bad man. Lysa says that Tyrion is indeed a very bad man so Robert suggests that they "make him fly" and Lysa admits that they might very well do exactly that.

[Avaleigh]

I'm just picturing Cat's heavy clothing and a cloak whipping around and that's what makes this part so intense for me because I feel like I'd be terrified as well. I keep remembering that it's dark and that she could trip on something that she can't see. Lysa really has a lot of nerve. I wonder if she's ever made the climb at night? Frankly, the basket ride doesn't sound like a fun time either and I say this as somebody who has no problem going on any ride at six flags.

 

Lysa. I totally imagine some creepy music box type sound as Catelyn realizes that her sister is kind of batshit.

 

I wonder why Brynden wanted to go into Jon's service as opposed to maybe Ned's? He seems like he prefers being around Cat over Lysa in any case.

 

Tyrion and Bronn are already fast friends. They have no idea what they're in for. I'm kind of annoyed that Tyrion's next chapter isn't for awhile.

 

Whenever a discussion of 'which castle would you like to have?' comes up I'm always surprised when people choose the Eyrie because I always think of the climb up and down. As bad as the ascent is making the descent is even worse. Plus, even if you did somehow get used to it the way people like Mya do, who the hell is going to want to come visiting? I'd feel bad if I had to put guests through an ordeal like that every time they wanted to come to stay. Tyrion's comment about how the Arryns must not be all that enthusiastic about having visitors seems perfectly true to me. I get that it's a safety thing but that only works when the weather is in their favor. And of course it doesn't do anything to keep out dragons. The Eyrie might be pretty and "impregnable" but Highgarden, Casterly Rock, Raventree Hall, Starfall, and Hightower all sound like they'd be a lot nicer to have.

[Hecate7]

Which castle would I rather have in this day and age? The Red Keep. It's in town and it's very pretty and quite easy to visit. Which would I rather have, during the time the show is set?

 

The Eyrie would be my first choice for hiding from wights and walkers during winter. You can see for miles around if intruders are coming. The castle is practically impregnable, very hard for White Walkers to get to and fairly easy to push them out of if they do climb up. Falling through the moon door won't kill them, true, but it will certainly take them time to climb back up, during which time I can make rings of fire around the place which will kill the wights. I can even make obsidian-tipped arrows and Valyrian steel swinging blades to guard the place, which would keep it safe during the important decade of winter. I'd have to repurpose a few sky cells for food production, but other than that it should be a great castle. Once spring came and the wights and walkers were gone, I could move to Highgarden or the Red Keep, whichever is prettier and more comfortable.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Hecate7

[Holmbo]

I had already jutted down some comments on the Ned chapter so I'll post them even though I'm too late.

This chapter is difficult to read because Ned makes so many plans that will never happen. From personal wishes such as seeing his other children and Cat again to political ones like going to see Stannis. If he would have turned LF away he and Stan would have made a united front against the Lannisters.

Also L+R hint.

"Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust"

Then right after this thought his mind goes to Cat.

I think this is the first of many times one of the persons of this series uses consequentialism to justify actions. That an action should be judge on what consequences it has. Problem with this view is that it's impossible to predict the consequences for certain. Killing Dany might just as well infuriate the Khal. And if they kill him too they don't know that someone else won't take that as a slight and decide to invade because of it.

I love what a boss Ned is in this scene. Robert so isn't expecting it and Ned basically said that if anybody was the eunuch in the room it's Robert! Lol, it's so awesome and startling I didn't remember feeling so "Hell yeah, Ned!" I don't think I felt that way on the show either but I'm tempted to look for that scene on youtube just to make a comparison.

It's very different in the show. The adaption is what I remember the best so Ned's snarkiness really stood out for me here.

"Have you forgotten who is king here?"

"No, have you?"

Oh no he didn't!

About your reflections of FM Avaleigh. I think they have some weird system of pricing based both on the target and the requester.

[Avaleigh]

Lol, that Brynden didn't prepare her for the breastfeeding thing. It's like he wants to explain that Lysa is different these days but he also thinks that Cat should probably just see for herself. 

 

I like that Marillion lost the cloak gambling. You know he's still totally pouting over it. 

I had already jutted down some comments on the Ned chapter so I'll post them even though I'm too late.

This chapter is difficult to read because Ned makes so many plans that will never happen. From personal wishes such as seeing his other children and Cat again to political ones like going to see Stannis. If he would have turned LF away he and Stan would have made a united front against the Lannisters.

Also L+R hint.
"Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust"
Then right after this thought his mind goes to Cat.

I think this is the first of many times one of the persons of this series uses consequentialism to justify actions. That an action should be judge on what consequences it has. Problem with this view is that it's impossible to predict the consequences for certain. Killing Dany might just as well infuriate the Khal. And if they kill him too they don't know that someone else won't take that as a slight and decide to invade because of it.


It's very different in the show. The adaption is what I remember the best so Ned's snarkiness really stood out for me here.
"Have you forgotten who is king here?"
"No, have you?"
Oh no he didn't!

About your reflections of FM Avaleigh. I think they have some weird system of pricing based both on the target and the requester.

Haha, that was my reaction too to Ned's snarkiness. It was the "unmanned" comment that really got me though especially with Varys sitting in the room. If Robert had given himself a stroke right then and there over Ned's comments it wouldn't have surprised me a bit. 

 

Yeah, I agree about Ned's thoughts sort of turning to Catelyn after thinking about secrets and trust. It's clear that he both loves and trusts her but sees keeping the secret as a way of protecting her. 

 

Which castle would I rather have in this day and age? The Red Keep. It's in town and it's very pretty and quite easy to visit. Which would I rather have, during the time the show is set?

 

The Eyrie would be my first choice for hiding from wights and walkers during winter. You can see for miles around if intruders are coming. The castle is practically impregnable, very hard for White Walkers to get to and fairly easy to push them out of if they do climb up. Falling through the moon door won't kill them, true, but it will certainly take them time to climb back up, during which time I can make rings of fire around the place which will kill the wights. I can even make obsidian-tipped arrows and Valyrian steel swinging blades to guard the place, which would keep it safe during the important decade of winter. I'd have to repurpose a few sky cells for food production, but other than that it should be a great castle. Once spring came and the wights and walkers were gone, I could move to Highgarden or the Red Keep, whichever is prettier and more comfortable.

I was under the impression that it doesn't really work to live at the Eyrie during winter because there's no guarantee of how long winter will last so if people are stuck up there then they don't really have any options when the food runs out. That's why they all have to leave in AFFC and they almost wait until it's too late to travel. It seems like it would be an easy castle to lay siege to as well depending on the time of year.

 

I could see how the Eyrie would have appealed to one of the dragon riding Targaryens though.

 

Oldtown seems like a better city than King's Landing that's why I would find the Hightower more appealing than the Red Keep. 

[polyhymnia]

I think it's a little strange that Brynden is still at the Eyrie at this point, given Lysa's increasingly bizarre behavior.

I have to say that I never bought that Tyrion was in on Bran's assassination attempt, but I was truly shocked by the Lysa reveal.  It makes the Lannisters a little less sinister or a little less smart because of course I thought it was still a Lannister behind the knife (just not Tyrion), but also that they had poisoned Jon Arryn because he knew about Joffrey and sibs.  Even Varys seems to think the Lannisters are behind Jon's death.  Why would Littlefinger kill him because of his twincest discovery?  Doesn't it benefit him more to have the Baratheons and the Lannisters at each others throats?  I think I have a problem with this whole poisoning plot because it makes sense that Cersei needs Jon Arryn dead right away, before he reveals anything to Robert, but it really doesn't make sense for Petyr and Lysa to do this when they do it.  At least not to me.  I really feel like this was a solution Martin came up with well after he wrote GoT. 

 

The 3-foot path really is such a tense scene.  I like that Catelyn does have some doubts about Tyrion's guilt but is just driven to get to the Eyrie before the whole party dies.

[Lady S.]

I think it's a little strange that Brynden is still at the Eyrie at this point, given Lysa's increasingly bizarre behavior.

He's not though, his job is guarding the gate and he's been there while Lysa was in King's Landing all those years. Now she's suddenly lodged herself in the Vale but he's more of a Valeman than she or Sweetrobin at this point, and doesn't really have another job to go to until his family needs him in the war.

 

Doesn't it benefit him more to have the Baratheons and the Lannisters at each others throats? 

No, because there is no chaotic war if Bob knew the truth. Jaime and Cersei get beheaded, then Tywin's reprisal gets crushed by the original STAB alliance plus House Tyrell. And no way for LF to get any wartime spoils like Harrenhal, become regent of the Vale, or snatch Sansa. IIRC, there's subtle clues about Jon Arryn's true murderer in the following Eyrie chapters.

 

Lysa. I totally imagine some creepy music box type sound as Catelyn realizes that her sister is kind of batshit.

 

I wonder why Brynden wanted to go into Jon's service as opposed to maybe Ned's? He seems like he prefers being around Cat over Lysa in any case.

 

Lol about a Lysa musical score.

 

Maybe Jon just asked first and was the one with the job opening? I guess I didn't get the feeling it was Brynden's idea so much as everyone knew of his tension with Hoster and that he could still be a valuable knight elsewhere.

 

Okay, first of all, I think it's notable that they suffered another clansmen attack and would have likely been attacked again if they hadn't made it to the Bloody Gate in time. There really was no opportunity to turn back here. I think this is a very important bit for me:

 

Could I be wrong? Catelyn wondered, not for the first time. Could he be innocent after all, of Bran and Jon Arryn and all the rest? And if he was, what did that make her? Six men had died to bring him here. 

 

 

The part about men dying to bring her there feels most important. I don't think it's just pride that keeps her from voicing these doubts outside her own head. I also like that she's remembering to pass on Ned's commands once they get to some ravens. 

 

I like how Brynden clarifies that he knows the right woman can rule, but that just ain't Lysa. The tale of Lysa's unhappy marriage would make me feel pretty bad for her if I didn't know she was a murderer who would later threaten her own niece. But I still have some sympathy for pre-batshit Lysa. It feels like GRRM dips into the mother's madness well a bit too often, but I guess this stuff would be pretty destabilizing in a world without shrinks or antidepressants.

 

Now, the big thing for me in this chapter is Catelyn and Mya Stone. Firstly, unless I'm missing something, she doesn't appear to know whose bastard Mya is. Ned's told her some things about growing up at the Eyrie but I can see why he wouldn't mention Bobby fathering his first kid there since the raising of bastards was kinda a sore subject for them and it seems Ned just preferred to ignore that elephant in the room. Secondly, this is the only time in the entire series iirc that she experiences guilt for her mistreatment of Jon. I take that line as being angry at Ned and maybe herself too, and guilt for how out of control she was in her last encounter with Jon, though I think Martin could have specified that a little better instead of basically sweeping that incident under the rug in the text. Secondly, she very definitely has some class prejudices but I don't think believing in the all bastards are untrustworthy and prone to betrayal, since she readily enough gives her life into Mya's hands and feels genuine sympathy for her naivete about Mychal Redfort. (Which is later proved right since Mychal does marry someone else

and Mya is still suffering from that heartbreak in Alayne I TWoW

. Though I'd wager a royal bastard could still make a good match if her deadbeat dad had bothered to arrange her marriage and provide a dowry. Cersei's awful but she's only preventing his bastards from coming to court, even Ned knows Bob could be doing more for his non-Edric bastards.)

[benteen]

It’s probably better that Brynden spent those years fighting the Mountain clans in the Vale instead of serving in the North, where little happens.

[Holmbo]

I like how in this series it really feels like every character is living their own story. Minor characters like Mya and Blackfish doesn't just exist to serve the main characters. They have their own motivations.

I wonder what the chances are for blackfish and LF ever meeting again. Could be interesting.

By the way what makeshift families all these people have grown up in. So many people with no blood relations being siblings, parents and children to each other. Blood always seems to be thicker though. We never see anyone choosing the people they grew up with over their actual family. Except perhaps Robert with Ned.

This chapter also has the most out of place boob description of, possibly, the entire series.

"She remembered the slender, highbreasted girl who'd waited beside her that day in the sept at Riverrun."

That's not how a woman would describe her sister George.

[Avaleigh]

I really like the idea of LF and the Blackfish meeting again one day but don't think we'll be that lucky.

Poor Mya regarding getting her heart broken later on. It's kind of surprising to me that she'd be so naive.

I had a side eye moment too with that description of Lysa coming from Catelyn.

I totally forgot to comment on Cat thinking that she sometimes has a heart of stone. Even though I'm not wild about the character of Lady Stoneheart I do appreciate getting the foreshadowing so early on.

Regarding the re-read- -

I was going to post another recap tomorrow and then see if everyone was cool with having a break for the holiday and then start back on Monday. I have friends coming into town tomorrow and then a family thing Saturday so I thought starting up Monday would be easier.

I hope everyone enjoys the holiday or their weekend!

[WearyTraveler]

Enjoy your holiday, Avaleigh! The re-read can wait!

[Lady S.]

This chapter also has the most out of place boob description of, possibly, the entire series.

"She remembered the slender, highbreasted girl who'd waited beside her that day in the sept at Riverrun."

That's not how a woman would describe her sister George.

Well, maybe you don't, jk jk. I guess I'd grown too used to GRRM's weird romance novel descriptions of people that this didn't even stand out. I did notice, but forget to mention, that apparently Catelyn had last seen Lysa only five years ago which raises some questions for me. Did Lysa really lose her shit that fast over five years or was she putting on an act the way she managed to when first greeting Cat here? (Sidenote, when I think about it, Lysa is actually a super good liar/actress. When first watching s1, I thought she had falsely accused Tyrion just because he had the wrong family name but I didn't doubt that she genuinely believed the Lannisters murdered her husband or that she wanted to avenge his death.) And why was Cat meeting up with Lysa in KL when Ned hadn't even seen Bobby in nine years? I feel like this couldn't have been any family gathering at Riverrun, since Lysa hates her father and only sees Sweetrobin as family, so she'd be unlikely to attend.

 

Thinking more about how Brynden got to be the Knight of the Gate, maybe it was that he already knew Jon Arryn but had only just met Ned. Arryn was of the same generation as the Tully brothers and it seems just about everybody fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings.

 

Anyways, happy fourth to all my compatriots and see you all on Monday then. Hope you enjoy your break, Avaleigh!

[Holmbo]

That is an interesting question, where did Lysa and Cat meet five years ago? And why?

I do think that the best guess would be Riverrun though. When Jon Arryn was alive I don't think Lysa had much to say about where to go. Maybe there was some occasion at Riverrun where both Stark and Arryn attended because of their family connections.

I don't see Arryn's coming to Winterfell and clearly not Stark to Kingslanding. And we see from Cat pov she hasn't been to the Vale before.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Holmbo

[Hecate7]

I think Jaime/Cersei do have something of a rape-fantasy vibe that D&D took to the next level. Not so much here where she's moaning while saying no, but the

altar-sex scene where she only consents after his dick is out and he's ripping her clothes off, and the wording of the convo with Taena is what I really found off-putting.

But that's getting ahead of ourselves, but GRRM's writing of Jaime passion as being something he can't control and Cersei always giving in because deep down she's always hot for him too is troubling and reminds me of a bad romance novel or that scene between Rhett and Scarlett in Gone with the Wind. How do we know it's possible for them to ever have negotiated consent where Jaime only goes forward because Cersei's agreed or else backs off when she's not in the mood? Cersei enjoys sex with Jaime but I don't think of her as being that sexual, so their always being in sync whenever Jaime's horny reads like some male nonsense from a writer who supposedly has a great understanding of women.

 

Jaime asking Cersei whose fault it is that Robert doesn't love her confirms to me that he has no clue of the abuse in the marriage. I see his first moment with Cersei after Robert asks to see Lyanna as saying "chill, babe, haven't we been waiting for that fat drunk to give us some alone time?"

 

I wonder why Jaime asks Bran's age, I don't think it was because he thought almost 8 years was a good, full life. Just stalling as he goes from kingslayer to attempted childslayer, I guess. I don't really think he had much choice here, the scare Bran into silence option was something Cersei only came up with after Bran refused to die. My problem is that is that even you're forced to kill an innocent, doing so should still bother you after the fact. Jaime seems to succeed in ignoring it and inside of wishing things had gone differently, he's prepared to kill countless people just so he and Cersei don't have to hide their love. He's not happy about what he did to Bran and has one line about being ashamed of the things he's had to do to hide the beautiful incest, but Goldenhand the Just isn't suffering any guilt pangs about either and dwells a lot more on the kingslaying which he claims to be proud of.

 

I think he asked because if Bran had been young enough not to know what he had seen, he could have spared him. Seven is too old not to think something was strange. Five or six, and he might have been talked into thinking he saw a game or something, but seven, no way. It's still a terribly young age to die, though, and I think Jaime wants Cersei to take that in.

[Holmbo]

What a blast from the past ;)

It makes me want to give my take on the Jaime Cersei relationship. But we haven't really seen much of it so far now in the books.

[ambi76]

I think he asked because if Bran had been young enough not to know what he had seen, he could have spared him. Seven is too old not to think something was strange. Five or six, and he might have been talked into thinking he saw a game or something, but seven, no way. It's still a terribly young age to die, though, and I think Jaime wants Cersei to take that in.

 

Interesting. I always thought Jaime was just confirming what he was about to do with that question. With some luck that could be a growth stunted twelve year old and that would make him at least "squire-" and "war fit-" age, but 7/8? Yeah, I guess child-murdering it is. "The things I do for love."

Edited July 5, 2015 by ambi76

[turkturkelton]

First I want to say thanks to Avaleigh for the great chapter summaries! 

 

I am so excited to have found this forum, because while almost everyone I know watches Game of Thrones, no one else I know has read the books. I just started reading through the series for the second time, and it will be really nice to have people to discuss it all with. As of now I am all caught up here, and am excited to join in from here on out. I hope everyone had a nice holiday!

Edited July 5, 2015 by turkturkelton

[Avaleigh]

Eddard IX

Littlefinger is hanging out in the common room of the brothel he told Ned about. Ned is emerging from one of the rooms and sees Littlefinger making conversation with an elegant looking woman.

In the brothel, Heward is having fun playing a stripping game with one of the prostitutes while Jory is standing by, quietly amused by the scene particularly since Heward appears to be losing.

Ned is ready to leave so Heward doesn't get to finish his game. Jory goes to help Wyl bring their horses and Littlefinger seems to be taking his time in leaving. Littlefinger tries to joke with Ned but by now of course he knows that Ned has no taste for his sort of humor, so naturally Ned makes it clear that he is Not Amused and that Littlefinger presumes too much as usual. He adds though that he appreciates Lord Baelish's help and admits that it might well have taken him years to find the brothel on his own.

Ned goes on to say that Littlefinger might have helped him but that doesn't mean that Ned is going to put up with his mocking bullshit for a moment longer. He also points out that he isn't the King's Hand anymore anyway.

Littlefinger smirks over how "prickly" direwolves must be.

It's raining outside as they go to the stables to mount their horses, and it seems that young Wyl wasn't expecting to have to leave quite so soon because he's caught lacing up his trousers while the prostitute that he was just spending time with giggles as she watches him try to compose himself.

They all begin the ride back to the castle and Littlefinger begins to talk about how great Chatayaya's brothel is and thinks it'll be worth investing in. Littlefinger makes a joke about pirates and prostitutes and it's all Ned can do to keep from rolling his eyes at the way Littlefinger amuses himself with his vulgar brand of humor.

They ride for awhile in silence and the rain starts to get heavier. Ned begins to think about how Lyanna told him that Robert would never, ever be able to be faithful to one woman and tells Ned that she's already heard about a bastard girl of his that was born in the Vale. Ned didn't feel that he could lie to his sister and remembers that he even held this child in his arms at one point. He told Lyanna that Robert would be a good man to her and that Robert loves her very much. Ned remembers Lyanna smiling and saying that love wouldn't be enough to change Robert's nature.

Ned is now thinking about the prostitute that he's just visited and he sees that her dark haired baby daughter looks just like Robert. The child even reminds Ned of Robert's child from the Vale. The prostitute asks Ned if he'll tell Robert how beautiful the baby is. Ned tells her that he will and thinks about how he's cursed in the way that he feels he needs to honor any promise he makes. He thinks about all of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying.

The prostitute tells Ned that she hasn't been with any other men and is waiting for Robert, hopeful that he'll return to her. She says she doesn't want and jewels or money, she really only wants Robert and explains that he was always good to her.

Ned agrees that he'll tell Robert and promises her that she and her child will want for nothing. The woman's innocence and hopefulness seem to make Ned feel like shit and for some reason all of this starts to get Ned thinking about Jon Snow. He wonders a bit about bastards and why the gods fill men with lust. Ned asks Littlefinger what he knows about Robert's bastards

Littlefinger says that Robert has more of them than Ned does and it isn't any wonder considering how much time Robert spends whoring around. He also mentions a baby acknowledged by the King that Robert and a noblewoman from House Florent conceived the night Stannis Baratheon married the Lady Selyse Florent. Apparently, Robert and the Florent girl christened the marital bed of Stannis and Selyse before the bride and groom could get to it so, Stannis was pretty miffed by the experience and had the resulting child sent away to live under Renly's care at Storm's End.

Littlefinger also shares a story that he heard where Robert is said to have fathered a pair of twins with a serving girl living at Casterly Rock. There are whispers that Cersei ordered the twins to be killed and while these sorts of stories are told about many great lords in the realm, Ned thinks to himself that he can easily believe this tale about Cersei's response to Robert's twin bastards. At the same time he questions whether or not Robert would stand by and let some shit like that happen. The Robert that Ned grew up with would never have but this new king who has taken his place is pretty damn good at not seeing whatever it is that he doesn't want to see.

Ned asks why Jon Arryn would take interest in Robert's illegitimate offspring and Littlefinger shrugs and suggests since Jon was Hand maybe the King asked that the kids be provided for.

Ned says there has to be more to it though otherwise Jon Arryn would still be alive.

Ned randomly takes a moment to wonder if Rhaegar Targaryen ever frequented brothels and thinks to himself that it would have been unlikely.

The rain is really coming down now and Jory calls out to Ned in alarm because the streets are suddenly full of Lannister soldiers and their small party is completely surrounded.

Since the soldiers are blocking their path, Jory draws his sword and tells them to get out of the way or die. Littlefinger asks the leader of the men what the hell he thinks he's doing blocking the path of the Hand of the King and the leader, Jaime Lannister, immediately points out that Ned is no longer Hand.

Littlefinger again asks Jaime what it is he thinks he's doing and Ned responds that Jaime knows exactly what he's doing.

Jaime smiles at Ned here and tells him that he's looking for Tyrion. He says he's heard that Tyrion met up with some trouble on the road and adds that his father Tywin was pretty ticked about the news when he found out about it.

Ned tells Jaime that Tyrion was taken at his command in order to answer for his crimes. Littlefinger tries to interject at this point and appears to be dismayed by how rapidly the situation is escalating especially since Ned's words have now caused Jaime to draw out own sword.

Jaime then tells Ned to draw out his own blade and tells him that he'll kill him like he killed the Mad King if he has to but he would prefer to see Ned die with a sword in his hand as opposed to being unarmed.

Jaime also tells Littlefinger that now is the time to scamper away if he doesn't want to get blood all over his expensive clothes. Littlefinger doesn't need to be told twice and high tails it out of there but not before promising Ned that he'll bring the City Watch back with him.

Ned's men have their swords out now but they're completely outnumbered four to twenty. Ned is weighing their options and wonders if they should try to charge their way out since the Lannister men are all on foot save Jaime. Ned tries a different tactic and simply tells Jaime that Tyrion will be killed if Jaime kills Ned.

Jaime responds to this by poking Ned's chest with his sword and says that he doesn't believe the honorable Catelyn Tully would just murder a hostage. Still, he isn't going to risk Tyrion's life on a "woman's honor" so he tells Ned that he'll allow him to go running to Robert with his tale of woe about how mean and frightening Jaime Lannister is. Jaime wonders aloud whether or not Robert will even care considering the current state of his friendship with Ned.

Jaime tells one of his men to make sure that no harm comes to Lord Stark and then gives the order for Ned's men to be killed.

"No!" Ned Stark screamed, clawing for his sword. Jaime was already cantering off down the street as he heard Wyl shout. Men closed from both sides. Ned rode one down, cutting at phantoms in red cloaks who gave way before him. Jory Cassel put his heels into his mount and charged. A steel-shod hoof caught a Lannister guardsman in the face with a sickening crunch. A second man reeled away and for an instant Jory was free. Wyl cursed as they pulled him off his dying horse, swords slashing in the rain. Ned galloped to him, bringing his longsword down on Tregar's helm. The jolt of impact made him grit his teeth. Tregar stumbled to his knees, his lion crest sheared in half, blood running down his face. Heward was hacking at the hands that had seized his bridle when a spear caught him in the belly. Suddenly Jory was back among them, a red rain flying from his sword. "No!" Ned shouted. "Jory, away!" Ned's horse slipped under him and came crashing down in the mud. There was a moment of blinding pain and the taste of blood in his mouth.

Ned sees Jory being butchered by Jaime's men and struggles to rise from the ground but can't. Ned can see his broken bone poking through his leg and it's shortly after this that he passes out.

When Ned opens his eyes again he finds himself still on the street only the soldiers are gone and now he is alone with his dead men.

People are watching the scene from behind windows and some are even walking down the street but nobody lifts a finger to help Ned.

Ned drags himself through the mud even though he's feeling intense pain from his broken leg. Eventually, he makes it over to Jory's body and by the time Littlefinger returns with the City Watch they're there to see Ned holding Jory's body in his arms.

The Gold Cloaks take Ned back via litter but Ned barely remembers the journey because he's going in and out of consciousness.

He's brought back to the Red Keep where he's cared for by Grand Maester Pycelle who gives him milk of the poppy for his pain. Ned passes out again.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Avaleigh

[Avaleigh]

Thank you and welcome, Turkturkelton . :)

Did Littlefinger know they were coming?

Ned is embarrassed by the age of the girl Robert has had this latest kid with. Poor Ned having to clean up after ungrateful Robert as usual. Then having to take the blame for Catelyn's horrible decision to abduct Tyrion. Plus he had to listen to Littlefinger running his mouth at several points in the evening, probably one of his least favorite activities. And he still hasn't put together what it is Jon Arryn figured out. I'd say this qualifies as his Worst Day Ever Since Bran's Fall. Gah, and then to know that it's mainly downhill from here I feel so bad for him. He's totally broken up about losing his guys. No way would Tywin, Stannis, Roose, Robert, Balon, etc have that sort of reaction where they cradle the body of one of their men if they'd been in a similar position.

I know the cradling of Jory's body isn't the sort of detail that would likely reach the North but it is the sort of thing that does make me have a greater respect for the loyalty Ned's men show the Starks over the course of the series. He freaking deserves it. He loves his men and would die fighting by their side. He cares about his men as people and it reminds me of how at Winterfell he'd have a different man sit next to him for dinner so that he could stay in the loop with his people.

I can't help but be upset with Catelyn.

Also, what is the best course of action to take if a Westerosi noble family has had one of its members abducted by another noble family? On a human level, Jaime really shouldn't be giving Ned any shit after what he's done to his kid but Tywin is a different story.

I've noticed that when Ned does lie they're rarely lies to his benefit.

I really feel bad for Wyl being interrupted now, yikes how quickly things can change for someone in this world.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Avaleigh

[ulkis]

This thread and shrimpy's thread made me skim the first book again and oh man. I forgot that Arya showers Jon with kisses when they say goodbye. Robb promising Jon they'll see each other soon. Arya flashbacking to Jon and Robb scaring the younger kids in the crypts. I'm feeling some feelings here. 

 

ETA: Oh, and random, but this is how I picture the Stark kids pretty much

 

http://spoonybards.deviantart.com/art/asoiaf-starks-179323151?q=gallery%3Aspoonybards%2F26588899&qo=1

 

To be fair the show kids mostly look the same, although I pictured Jon much more angular and lean, like in the picture.

Edited July 7, 2015 by ulkis

[Lady S.]

Thank you and welcome, Turkturkelton . :)

Did Littlefinger know they were coming?

Ned is embarrassed by the age of the girl Robert has had this latest kid with. Poor Ned having to clean up after ungrateful Robert as usual. Then having to take the blame for Catelyn's horrible decision to abduct Tyrion. Plus he had to listen to Littlefinger running his mouth at several points in the evening, probably one of his least favorite activities. And he still hasn't put together what it is Jon Arryn figured out. I'd say this qualifies as his Worst Day Ever Since Bran's Fall. Gah, and then to know that it's mainly downhill from here I feel so bad for him. He's totally broken up about losing his guys. No way would Tywin, Stannis, Roose, Robert, Balon, etc have that sort of reaction where they cradle the body of one of their men if they'd been in a similar position.

I know the cradling of Jory's body isn't the sort of detail that would likely reach the North but it is the sort of thing that does make me have a greater respect for the loyalty Ned's men show the Starks over the course of the series. He freaking deserves it. He loves his men and would die fighting by their side. He cares about his men as people and it reminds me of how at Winterfell he'd have a different man sit next to him for dinner so that he could stay in the loop with his people.

I can't help but be upset with Catelyn.

Also, what is the best course of action to take if a Westerosi noble family has had one of its members abducted by another noble family? On a human level, Jaime really shouldn't be giving Ned any shit after what he's done to his kid but Tywin is a different story.

I've noticed that when Ned does lie they're rarely lies to his benefit.

I really feel bad for Wyl being interrupted now, yikes how quickly things can change for someone in this world.

Ok, fair warning for one of my very long posts now. Tyrion's capture is an argument I really have no wish to open up again, I'll just say the really suspect part is her not questioning Littlefinger's story more, but with the very misguided belief that Tyrion did try to have Bran killed or knows who did, and Ned's misguided belief that the Lannisters might already be planning open war, then her actions at the inn make a hell of a lot more sense to me than Jaime's here and are certainly more sympathetic. If you just mean putting Ned in this position, I think Littlefinger had more to do with that. His timing is indeed very suspicious here, and if he hadn't distracted Ned he'd be on his way home or at least not in the middle of the street. (I also wonder if Jaime would have attacked him in the middle of the Red Keep if he'd still been Hand.) My spec here is that Littlefinger helped arrange this meeting by relaying the news of Tyrion's capture and Ned's whereabouts to Jaime through a 3rd party, because I have some questions of his choices here. Why did he suddenly decide to lead Ned to the next Baratheon bastard? If he was just hoping to get him to stick around by getting Ned re-invested in the Jon Arryn mystery, he didn't really accomplish that since Ned is still confused by all of it, but if his goal was to detain Ned and escalate the Stark/Lannister conflict even further, then mission accomplished. And King's Landing is supposed to be a big city, was Jaime really just wandering around looking for Ned and happened to stumble upon him in the red light district (or close to it)? How did he know Ned would even be in the streets inside the city instead of leaving town after quitting his job? Baelish certainly got out of the way quickly enough, but it doesn't appear that the City Watch found their way to Ned all that quickly. I also wonder if the detail about him taking his time saying farewell to Chataya was about stalling for time, hoping that Jaime would take the bait from whoever and find them.

 

Cersei and Tywin should have made a formal request(/demand) to Bobby to have Tyrion's alleged crimes tried by the king in open court, since Ned's official story is that this was an arrest, not a hostage-taking. And Jaime should have gone straight to Casterly Rock (or even just shot off a raven) to know what Tywin's plans were, since he's not helping anybody by confronting Ned first and idek wtf he thinks he's accomplishing, so the obvious answer must be he just went straight to gotta kill first, plan later. Killing Ned would only put Tyrion's life in danger but giving the order to kill Ned's men just to hurt Ned is simply cold and cruel. It's not a battle where he's killing strangers on orders or for a set strategic objective, these men are losing their lives just to punish Ned for something Jaime has to suspect he's lying about ordering, and Jaime orders their death with a fricking grin on his face. And what's worse, he doesn't even stick around to kill them himself or take part in the fight at all, which is a Tywin-like way to have people killed. I guess Jaime only cares about doing his own killing when the victims are people who matter. Ned's worth killing personally, his men are props like those Theon had others murder during his reign at Winterfell. I really find this choice much more despicable than his earlier attempted murder of Bran, since at least he did that to forestall possible danger, here he's not helping Tyrion in any way and is only satisfying his own vengeful rage, onto targets that had only an indirect relation to Tyrion's plight. I guess my point here is that Jaime is more often than not, the least Tywin-like of the three siblings, but all three of them are vengeful and can be cruel when they feel like it. If Jaime was like Loras as a teenager, then he was never really the model of good-hearted chivalry, he couldn't be after being raised as Tywin's heir.

Sidenote, Jaime's line wondering if Catelyn would really murder a hostage in retribution is some great foreshadowing, though I doubt that was even intentional. The other interesting line there is that he'd prefer Ned to die with a weapon in hand but would butcher him like Aerys if he didn't, another way tv Jaime comes off as more honorable than book Jaime in this scene. Although that scene does bug me for making it seem like Ned was an even match for Jaime, it would have been better to have Jaime gradually wearing him down before Ned gets too close to one of the red cloaks and the guard spears to save time by ending the fight sooner.

 

Other thoughts:

• Heward was interrupted in his game of strip tiles, but at least poor Wyl got one last roll in the hay. I choose to interrupt it as only his tumble being over but Wyl not having gotten dressed again yet.
• I wonder if Ned really believed Bobby would never cheat on Lyanna or if he was just trying to reassure her and make himself believe it, as is his pattern.
• Ned's spec that this young girl had a high price as a virgin really grosses me out, but that's probably typical of Westerosi prostitution. 
• Ned dragging himself across the mud, with a broken leg, to cradle Jory's corpse is one of the saddest images in this book.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Lady S.

[Holmbo]

I agree about Ned not having a very good day and it's about to get worse.

I wonder about Jaime's actions here. Isn't he doing some heavy ass oathbreaking by carrying out personal vendettas against Ned? He's kingsguard. It's not his place to get into Stark Lannister feuds? Though maybe if Cersei ordered him to? I'm a bit confused about the rules specially since GRRM doesn't seem to have been entirely consistent with them.

[Constantinople]

Jaime consistently does whatever he wants whenever he wants regardless of whatever duties he has or oaths he's sworn.

[benteen]

Yeah, Jaime doesn't let a thing like oaths get in the way of what he wants to do here.  Because yeah, he seriously violated a ton of them when he ran off from the King and decided to threaten a ruling lord and former Hand of the King.  He wouldn't have been able to use Cersei as an excuse for that either.

[WearyTraveler]

I wonder if it's scenes like these that gave D&D the impression that Jamie is "a monster who loves killing".  Jamie probably knows Tyrion is innocent of the charges, so, his going off half cocked in defense of his brother is not unexpected, but giving the order to kill Ned's men is cruel.  It's hard to believe, upon re-reading, that this is the same Jamie we later see

bringing some sort of peace to the Riverlands

.

 

As for Ned, I started reading the series after I'd binged the first season, so, inevitably, the characters had the faces of their TV counterparts in my head.  Reading about Ned holding Jory's body with the image of Sean Bean's face.... It's moments like these that show what a great man Ned was, faults and all; and that make people love him so much that even after his death, 5 books later, readers still think about him, and care about the Starks' fate, I think.  I still want justice for his death, 

Joffrey's death, gruesome as it was,

was not enough.  I think that the only justice that would feel satisfactory, for me anyway, is for the Starks to rise again to all their glory.  Nothing else will suffice.  

 

I think the next Ned chapter is the one with the dream that I wanted to discuss in contrast to Jon's dream going down to the Winterfell crypts.  Very eager to get there.

 

On another note, how heavy are the anvils here for R+L=J?

Edited July 8, 2015 by WearyTraveler

[Holmbo]

I agree Jaime does what he wants. I'm just surprised that people don't seem to react more to it. I feel like Robert should be all "his loyalty is not with the king, of with his head". Or that Ned doesn't react to Jaime disregarding the king. It confirms what he's been telling Robert that Jaime is not loyal to him.

I don't know if I've misunderstood the role of the kingsguard. Maybe it's OK for them to take part in family business as long as it doesn't hurt the royal family.

[benteen]

Despite treating him like shit, Robert seemed to have a real obsession with Jaime.  Earlier in the story he appoints Jaime Warden of the West because of how weak and young little Robert Arryn was.  That decision is completely forgotten about right after it's said.  We'll also see in the next Ned chapter that

he tells Ned he'll appoint Jaime as Hand of the King if he quits.

.  I'm not sure why he favored Jaime so much when Jaime's loyalty clearly wasn't with him.

[Avaleigh]

Daenerys IV

 

Dany and the khalasar are entering the Horse Gate of Vaes Dothrak. Dany doesn't really see the purpose of the gate since the city has no walls or visible buildings but she appreciates the beauty of the structure all the same.

 

Viserys has been permitted to have a mount again but the other Dothraki still have zero respect for his stubborn ass and make fun of him openly in their language. The day he got out of line with Dany, Viserys was forced to walk back to the khalasar and was promptly given the nickname of The Sorefoot King. Drogo decides to be fake nice and allows Viserys to ride in one of the carts the next day and Viserys happily accepts without realizing that this is going to make the Dothraki think that he's even more of a weakling than they'd previously thought since the carts are typically for eunuchs, women who are about to give birth, and those who are physically disabled.

 

Viserys is actually dumb enough to think that the Khal is trying to apologize on Dany's behalf with the cart offering but all it does is earn Viserys yet another nickname: The Cart King. For whatever reason, Dany doesn't want Viserys to feel this shame and asks Jorah not to tell Viserys the truth of how he's really being mocked by everyone. Jorah thinks that it would probably be better for Viserys in the long run to learn some humility but Dany insists that she doesn't want him to be shamed in this way. She then has to fuck Drogo's brains out in order to get him to allow Viserys back to riding in the front of the khalasar with them.

 

They ride past a bunch of statues and idols stolen from various places. Some of the pieces are grand and beautiful and others are so strange and freaky looking that Dany can barely bring herself to look at them. Jorah says that these weird looking statues are probably from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai.

Viserys isn't impressed with what he sees and blows off the statues as being nothing more than the "trash of dead cities". He goes on to say that the Dothraki suck and are really only savages who go around stealing things that have been created by "better" men. He says that if the Dothraki weren't so good at killing people he wouldn't bother with them at all.

 

Most of the Dothraki only understand a few words of the Common Tongue so they don't know how insulting Viserys is being but Dany still looks around to check and almost seems nervous that they might catch on so she asks Viserys to check his behavior reminding him that the Dothraki are her people now. She doesn't want them being called savages.

 

Viserys tells her that he's a dragon so he can say whatever the hell he pleases and moves on to the topic of when Khal Drogo plans on finally giving him his army. He's tired of waiting, he wants his crown already, he's over eating horsemeat every day, and frankly, he doesn't even want to smell these people anymore but presumably he knows that he's going to have to suffer through this last issue if Khal Drogo ever gets around to fulfilling his promise.

 

Viserys might not like the smell of the other Dothraki but he's not smelling too hot himself and his expensive clothes from Pentos are all disgusting and rotted from sweat.

 

Jorah tries to make Viserys feel better and tells him that they'll be able to get better food from the Western Market. He also tells Viserys that the Khal will honor the promise that he made it's just going to take time. Viserys goes into haughty mode and says that Drogo had better fulfill his promise because Viserys is a dragon and stuff and refuses to be mocked. Before Viserys can say more or Jorah can respond, Viserys's head is turned by a statue of a woman with a ferret's head and six breasts so he rides off in order to get a better look.

 

Once Viserys is out of earshot Dany tells Jorah that she hopes Drogo won't keep Viserys waiting for too long. Jorah tells Dany that Viserys should have taken Illyrio up on his offer to hang out at the manse in Pentos because riding with the khalasar is clearly no place for him.

 

Jorah tries to explain that Viserys is confused in thinking that Dany was sold to Drogo in exchange for an army and that Drogo really sees it as Viserys having given him a gift. The idea is that Drogo will eventually give Viserys a gift in turn but that Viserys can't demand one because horse lords don't respond kindly to people who demand anything of them.

 

Dany tells Jorah that she doesn't think that it's right for Drogo to make Viserys wait and says Viserys claims that he'd be able to take back the Seven Kingdoms with ten thousand of the Dothraki. Jorah chuckles derisively and says that Viserys wouldn't be able to sweep up a stable with ten thousand brooms let alone take back Westeros with ten thousand Dothraki screamers.

 

Dany wonders if ten thousand Dothraki would be enough to conquer Westeros under a commander other than Viserys, and Jorah seems undecided but basically admits that in his opinion it wouldn't be impossible. He says that the Dothraki have some pretty impressive numbers and definitely have superior archers. At the same time, the Dothraki have no armor and they'd be unlikely to besiege a castle. In fact, Jorah doubts whether they'd even be able to take the weakest castle in Westeros. Men like Tywin Lannister, Stannis Baratheon, and Eddard Stark would likely make the smart call of staying safely behind their walls and waiting it out as opposed to engaging the Dothraki on an open battlefield.

 

Jorah opines that Robert Baratheon should have been born a Dothraki and that he would be one of the few prominent Westerosi who would probably be foolish enough to meet the Dothraki on an open field.

Dany picks up on Jorah's hatred of Lord Stark and Jorah takes a moment to bitch about how he feels that Lord Stark has taken everything that Jorah loves and has essentially ruined Jorah's life, all for the sake of a few poachers and the precious Stark honor.

 

They're in the part of the city where buildings and houses are now in view and Dany sees that the buildings are all different and this is because the structures are the work of captured slaves so the slaves were inclined to build in the style from wherever they'd come.

 

The city is mostly empty and only old women and their slaves and servants live there permanently. The city is large enough for every man from every khalasar to be housed and it is prophesied that one day this shall come to pass.

 

When the khalasar gets to the Eastern Market, they dismount and give up their weapons because no blood is supposed to be spilled in Vaes Dothrak. Even Khal Drogo cannot carry a blade here.

Dany is greeted by the bloodrider Cohollo and thinks for a bit about bloodriders within the Dothraki culture.

 

Every khal had his bloodriders. At first Dany had thought of them as a kind of Dothraki Kingsguard, sworn to protect their lord, but it went further than that. Jhiqui had taught her that a bloodrider was more than a guard; they were the khal's brothers, his shadows, his fiercest friends. "Blood of my blood," Drogo called them, and so it was; they shared a single life. The ancient traditions of the horselords demanded that when the khal died, his bloodriders died with him, to ride at his side in the night lands. If the khal died at the hands of some enemy, they lived only long enough to avenge him, and then followed him joyfully into the grave. In some khalasars, Jhiqui said, the bloodriders shared the khal's wine, his tent, and even his wives, though never his horses. A man's mount was his own.

 

 

Dany's pretty happy that Drogo hasn't made the decision to "share" her. She likes Cohollo well enough but is frightened by Haggo and Qotho. Qotho makes Irri cry when he has sex with her and leaves bruises all over Doreah when he takes her. Dany notes that even Qotho's horses seem to fear him.

 

Since they're bound to Drogo for life (and death), Dany feels like she just has to accept them and she even thinks to herself about what might have been if her father had been protected by these sorts of men. She thinks about how Aerys was murdered by one of his own Kingsguard and how Barristan the Bold ultimately went over to Team Robert.

 

Dany thinks that when her son is seated on the Iron Throne that she'll make sure that he has bloodriders who protect him against his Kingsguard.

 

Cohollo tells Dany that it's sacrifice time and that Drogo and his bloodriders have to go to the Mother of Mountains in order to ensure Drogo's safe return. Women aren't allowed to set foot on the Mother of Mountains for some reason so Dany tells Cohollo to tell Drogo that she's dreaming of him and anxiously awaiting his return. She then thinks to herself that she's actually glad that she'll have a night off of having sex with her husband because she's feeling pretty tired from the pregnancy and he's apparently been giving her more attention than usual.

 

Dany has a scalding hot bath and decides to have dinner with Viserys because she has some gifts for him. She wants Viserys to look like a king while he's in Vaes Dothrak and she asks Irri to go to the market to select food that Viserys might actually like, something other than horsemeat. Irri kind of side eyes Dany and tries to tell her that horsemeat is better because it supposedly makes men stronger but Dany insists that she get something else because Viserys hates horsemeat.

 

After Dany puts out the gift of clothes that she's had especially made for Viserys she thinks to herself that he's still her king and her brother and that they're both the blood of the dragon so she hopes that Viserys will find it in him to be able to forgive her for the day she shamed him.

 

Dany is in the process of arranging his gifts when Viserys angrily comes in dragging Doreah roughly by the arm. It's clear that he's hit Doreah and he starts to yell at Dany for daring to send Doreah over to give him commands. It seems that Doreah told Viserys that Dany was "commanding" him to attend supper and Dany tries to clarify saying that she'd only wanted Doreah to ask His Grace if he would like to attend.

 

Taking Viserys by the hand, Dany shows him the gifts that she's had made for him and she seems shy for a moment like she's really hoping that he's going to be touched.

 

Unfortunately, this is Viserys so he immediately sneers at her gifts calling them "Dothraki rags" and sarcastically says that the next thing he knows Dany will be trying to braid his hair. Without even thinking, Dany tells Viserys that actually, no, she isn't going to try to braid his hair because braids are for people who have won victories and have actually accomplished things.

 

Viserys pretty much sees red at this point but he knows better than to hit Dany while her handmaids are watching. Viserys picks up the cloak that is a part of his gift of clothes and tells Dany that it smells like shit and that maybe it would be a suitable horse blanket. Dany is hurt and tells her brother that these are garments that are fit for a Khal.

 

It seems that Viserys thinks that his sister has forgotten who he is so he reminds her that he's the Lord of the Seven Kingdoms, not some braided, bell-wearing savage and that Dany is basically out of her mind if she thinks that her pregnancy can protect her from "waking the dragon" within Viserys.

 

At first Dany feels like a chastened child again but as he digs his hand painfully into her arm, Dany reaches around for the first thing she can find, a heavy belt of bronze medallions, and thwacks Viserys in the face with it using all of her strength. She actually slices open a piece of his cheek and then tells Viserys that if either of them is forgetting who's who and what's what it's Viserys. Snap. 

 

Dany asks Viserys if he learned anything from the last time he put his hands on her and then tells him to get the fuck out before she has her khas drag him out for her. She then adds that Viserys had better pray that Drogo doesn't find out about this latest incident of assault because he'd likely gut Viserys and feed him his own entrails.

 

After he gets to his feet, Viserys tells Dany that when he comes into his kingdom that she's going to be sorry that she's treated him the way she has. He leaves, holding his cut up cheek, and doesn't take any of the gifts with him.

 

Jhiqui announces that dinner is ready but Dany is no longer hungry so she tells her handmaids to eat the food and to make sure to bring some to Jorah. She then says that she'd like to have one of the dragon eggs brought over to her.

 

Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her . . . as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood. "You are the dragon," Dany whispered to him, "the true dragon. I know it. I know it." And she smiled, and went to sleep dreaming of home.

[Constantinople]

I agree Jaime does what he wants. I'm just surprised that people don't seem to react more to it. I feel like Robert should be all "his loyalty is not with the king, of with his head". Or that Ned doesn't react to Jaime disregarding the king. It confirms what he's been telling Robert that Jaime is not loyal to him.

I don't know if I've misunderstood the role of the kingsguard. Maybe it's OK for them to take part in family business as long as it doesn't hurt the royal family.

It was my understanding that joining the Kingsguard was like joining the Night's Watch. In a nutshell, you give up everything and your sole duty is to King. So you don't get to go around acting on behalf of the family that you've forsworn to serve the King.

[Avaleigh]

I feel like I have a lot of comments for this one. Viserys was pretty funny here. Lol that he's all unimpressed with the statues only to be interested in the ferret faced woman with six breasts. 

 

Isn't it kind of wild that Jorah is talking about how Ned has taken away everything that Jorah ever loved but if it weren't for Ned's actions then Jorah wouldn't have met the current woman he's in love with/obsessed with. I wonder if he could go back would he rather try to find another way to hold on to Lynesse that didn't involve selling poachers to slavers or would he still want to take the exile road that leads to Dany only coming clean early on about his role as spy. I feel like Jorah certain now that Jorah's feelings of resentment towards Ned have to have been changed.

 

Omg, vomit over Dany telling that bloodrider how she'll be dreaming of Drogo and that she's all anxious for his return. Seriously, vomit. 

 

Interesting that Dany sees her son on the Iron Throne while she's still alive. I thought she'd be Queen with her son coming after but it seems that she wasn't planning on having him be the Crown Prince first. 

 

Ugh, the info about bloodriders and the khal sharing their wives but not their mounts. It's stuff like this where I just have no patience with Dothraki culture and hate the idea of them wreaking any sort of havoc in Westeros. It's sad too that even the Khaleesi's ladies aren't given any protection from the men like Qotho. 

 

I was surprised that there's a cart for those who are disabled. When Tyrion thinks about how the Dothraki leave deformed children out to be eaten by wild dogs I sort of thought that unless maybe a person was injured in battle and had a chance of recovering that they'd cart them around but otherwise these people seem so hardcore I can't imagine them just taking care of people who can't ride unless there's a very specific reason. I'm also surprised that they have any eunuchs traveling with them. What ever for? They don't sound like Unsullied eunuchs and I can't see any educated Varys types rolling with the khalasar. And why wouldn't a eunuch be able to have a mount anyway? 

 

I feel like it would have been in the nature of Viserys to stay with Illyrio. He seems lazy and like he expects things to happen easily so I have no problem imagining him wanting to wait for his army in public as opposed to following around a sister who now outranks him as he learned during her wedding feast. It seems like it's more about the plot needing him to go with her as opposed to it seeming like the choice Viserys would prefer to make.

 

I felt bad for Dany with Viserys rejecting her gift. She seems so lonely and it's clear to me that she would have worshipped him if she'd grown up with him treating her kindly. 

 

When Viserys makes the braid comment I immediately imagined Harry Lloyd saying 'Next thing I know you'll be trying to braid my hair like we're at some fucking slumber party' and then I imagined Harry Lloyd with cornrows. 

 

Re: bloodriders

I'm going to make the prediction that this is going to be a thing that Dany brings to Westeros and that she'll explain the concept to Jon so that he ends up with two or three bloodriders in addition to a Kingsguard. Either that or she'll just pick up a couple more of her own but I think this is going to come up again.

 

The other thing I noticed was the prediction about how all of the Dothraki would return to Vaes Dothrak one day. I think that we're at that point and that the khalasar Dany ran into at the end of the season is going to take her there. Everyone will be unarmed and they won't think Dany will be able to do anything and then Drogon will come and maybe Jorah and Daario too. Whatever happens I feel like blood is going to spill in Vaes Dothrak in the next season/book. 

[benteen]

 

They ride past a bunch of statues and idols stolen from various places. Some of the pieces are grand and beautiful and others are so strange and freaky looking that Dany can barely bring herself to look at them. Jorah says that these weird looking statues are probably from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai.

 

Another little detail from the book I would have liked to have seen on the show.  Everything beyond Asshai is a fascinating mystery.

 

Jorah might have been glad to end up with Dany and claims to her that he's not proud of his actions in selling slaves.  But I thought his bitching about Ned and his "precious honor" was a peek at the real Jorah and his refusal to take and accept responsibility for his own actions.  I often wondered, considering how remote Bear Island is, just how it was discovered that Jorah was selling slaves.  Was the slaver's ship caught (the North has no fleet) and the slaver gave up Jorah?  Did they find Jorah's signature on a bill of deeds?  Was he informed on by a servant of House Mormont, like the maester?  Whatever the case, I expect Ned in his typically stupid manner probably told Jorah that he was coming to Bear Island, giving Jorah time to escape.  Otherwise, how else would Jorah have gotten the information that Ned was coming to Bear Island to execute him.

 

Jorah is right though that Robert should have been born a Dothraki.  He would have been a very happy man that way.

 

Viserys's hissy fit on the show where he claimed the vest that Dany gave him smelled like manure made me laugh.

Edited July 8, 2015 by benteen

[Avaleigh]

Another little detail from the book I would have liked to have seen on the show.  Everything beyond Asshai is a fascinating mystery.

 

Jorah might have been glad to end up with Dany and claims to her that he's not proud of his actions in selling slaves.  But I thought his bitching about Ned and his "precious honor" was a peek at the real Jorah and his refusal to take and accept responsibility for his own actions.  I often wondered, considering how remote Bear Island is, just how it was discovered that Jorah was selling slaves.  Was the slaver's ship caught (the North has no fleet) and the slaver gave up Jorah?  Did they find Jorah's signature on a bill of deeds?  Whatever the case, I expect Ned in his typically stupid manner probably told Jorah that he was coming to Bear Island, giving Jorah time to escape.  Otherwise, how else would Jorah have gotten the information that Ned was coming to Bear Island to execute him.

 

Viserys's hissy fit on the show where he claimed the vest that Dany gave him smelled like manure made me laugh.

Lol, I totally think this happened. Jorah definitely seems like he was given a heads up. Maybe Ned thought he'd be too honorable to run. I do like the later detail of Jorah not taking Longclaw with him even though he could have. That was decent and seems like something Ned would respect. Leaving Longclaw was the one way he could show that he was still a gentleman so to speak IMO. 

 

The statues from Asshai...I'm imagining Medusa x1000 basically. 

 

I really do find Illyrio's decisions with Dany and Viserys in these early days to be puzzling all around given what's to come.

[benteen]

It's interesting that Jorah didn't sell Longclaw to finance his wife's lifestyle, especially considering Tywin would have paid a fortune for a Valyrian steel sword.  It shows how much reverence swords like that are viewed to their owners.

[Constantinople]

I often wondered, considering how remote Bear Island is, just how it was discovered that Jorah was selling slaves.  Was the slaver's ship caught (the North has no fleet) and the slaver gave up Jorah?  Did they find Jorah's signature on a bill of deeds?  Was he informed on by a servant of House Mormont, like the maester?  Whatever the case, I expect Ned in his typically stupid manner probably told Jorah that he was coming to Bear Island, giving Jorah time to escape.  Otherwise, how else would Jorah have gotten the information that Ned was coming to Bear Island to execute him.

I suspect a Lord of Winterfell / Warden of the North on the move is the kind of news that travels fast.

But even if Ned warned Jorah, it's not necessarily stupid since if the goal is to punish someone without resorting to killing him.

[Brn2bwild]

It's interesting that Jorah didn't sell Longclaw to finance his wife's lifestyle, especially considering Tywin would have paid a fortune for a Valyrian steel sword.  It shows how much reverence swords like that are viewed to their owners.

 

Didn't Jeor have Longclaw with him at the Wall?

[Hecate7]

 

Ok, fair warning for one of my very long posts now. Tyrion's capture is an argument I really have no wish to open up again, I'll just say the really suspect part is her not questioning Littlefinger's story more, but with the very misguided belief that Tyrion did try to have Bran killed or knows who did, and Ned's misguided belief that the Lannisters might already be planning open war, then her actions at the inn make a hell of a lot more sense to me than Jaime's here and are certainly more sympathetic. If you just mean putting Ned in this position, I think Littlefinger had more to do with that. His timing is indeed very suspicious here, and if he hadn't distracted Ned he'd be on his way home or at least not in the middle of the street. (I also wonder if Jaime would have attacked him in the middle of the Red Keep if he'd still been Hand.) My spec here is that Littlefinger helped arrange this meeting by relaying the news of Tyrion's capture and Ned's whereabouts to Jaime through a 3rd party, because I have some questions of his choices here. Why did he suddenly decide to lead Ned to the next Baratheon bastard? If he was just hoping to get him to stick around by getting Ned re-invested in the Jon Arryn mystery, he didn't really accomplish that since Ned is still confused by all of it, but if his goal was to detain Ned and escalate the Stark/Lannister conflict even further, then mission accomplished. And King's Landing is supposed to be a big city, was Jaime really just wandering around looking for Ned and happened to stumble upon him in the red light district (or close to it)? How did he know Ned would even be in the streets inside the city instead of leaving town after quitting his job? Baelish certainly got out of the way quickly enough, but it doesn't appear that the City Watch found their way to Ned all that quickly. I also wonder if the detail about him taking his time saying farewell to Chataya was about stalling for time, hoping that Jaime would take the bait from whoever and find them.

 

Cersei and Tywin should have made a formal request(/demand) to Bobby to have Tyrion's alleged crimes tried by the king in open court, since Ned's official story is that this was an arrest, not a hostage-taking. And Jaime should have gone straight to Casterly Rock (or even just shot off a raven) to know what Tywin's plans were, since he's not helping anybody by confronting Ned first and idek wtf he thinks he's accomplishing, so the obvious answer must be he just went straight to gotta kill first, plan later. Killing Ned would only put Tyrion's life in danger but giving the order to kill Ned's men just to hurt Ned is simply cold and cruel. It's not a battle where he's killing strangers on orders or for a set strategic objective, these men are losing their lives just to punish Ned for something Jaime has to suspect he's lying about ordering, and Jaime orders their death with a fricking grin on his face. And what's worse, he doesn't even stick around to kill them himself or take part in the fight at all, which is a Tywin-like way to have people killed. I guess Jaime only cares about doing his own killing when the victims are people who matter. Ned's worth killing personally, his men are props like those Theon had others murder during his reign at Winterfell. I really find this choice much more despicable than his earlier attempted murder of Bran, since at least he did that to forestall possible danger, here he's not helping Tyrion in any way and is only satisfying his own vengeful rage, onto targets that had only an indirect relation to Tyrion's plight. I guess my point here is that Jaime is more often than not, the least Tywin-like of the three siblings, but all three of them are vengeful and can be cruel when they feel like it. If Jaime was like Loras as a teenager, then he was never really the model of good-hearted chivalry, he couldn't be after being raised as Tywin's heir.

Sidenote, Jaime's line wondering if Catelyn would really murder a hostage in retribution is some great foreshadowing, though I doubt that was even intentional. The other interesting line there is that he'd prefer Ned to die with a weapon in hand but would butcher him like Aerys if he didn't, another way tv Jaime comes off as more honorable than book Jaime in this scene. Although that scene does bug me for making it seem like Ned was an even match for Jaime, it would have been better to have Jaime gradually wearing him down before Ned gets too close to one of the red cloaks and the guard spears to save time by ending the fight sooner.

 

Other thoughts:

• Heward was interrupted in his game of strip tiles, but at least poor Wyl got one last roll in the hay. I choose to interrupt it as only his tumble being over but Wyl not having gotten dressed again yet.
• I wonder if Ned really believed Bobby would never cheat on Lyanna or if he was just trying to reassure her and make himself believe it, as is his pattern.
• Ned's spec that this young girl had a high price as a virgin really grosses me out, but that's probably typical of Westerosi prostitution. 
• Ned dragging himself across the mud, with a broken leg, to cradle Jory's corpse is one of the saddest images in this book.

 

 

Good point The Red Light district is the last place I'd look for Ned Stark.

[benteen]

Didn't Jeor have Longclaw with him at the Wall?

 

Longclaw was sent to Jeor by Maege after Jorah left Bear Island.

[Holmbo]

I'm thinking Ned probably did the same thing to Jorah as he did to Gregor Clegane. Publicly denouncing him off his titles and sentencing him to die. Then he went of to bear island to carry out the punishment. And instead of facing his beheading as a honorable man Jorah ran away.

It's interesting to see people's different view on book vs show Viserys. Stillshimpy for example wrote that she thought show Viserys was much more sympathetic but I've heard other people who read the book after the show say that getting more backstory made them feel more sorry for him.