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Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

formerlyfreedom

By formerlyfreedom
in Legends Of Tomorrow

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FurryFury

FurryFury

Gina Torres will play the main character on some new show next season (The Deaths Of... I forgot the name of the character). So unfortunately, no chance of that, yeah.

I'm not a huge fan of Megalyn back from her The 4400 days, so I don't mind the new Vixen, plus I think the way they've made the substitution is cool and makes sense.

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Lokiberry
Lokiberry

I love Mick, he's a great character, but he tried to kill Sara and steal the time drive which would have stranded the team in whatever time period they were in. He did this because he was unhappy on t

Sakura12
Sakura12

Why do writers think fans want to see huge conflict? When has that ever turned out well for any show? Does he not watch Arrow, does he not see how that is hurting the show?  I liked Legends becau

Lokiberry
Lokiberry

Sara was treated horrifically on Arrow, but since she came to LoT, she's received the best treatment of any female character in the flarrowverse. She's been given plenty of screen time. She hasn't bee

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kismet

kismet

I love Gina Torres but I want her saved for a Flarrowverse Villain or Morally Grey character, I think it plays better to her strengths.

The mind your surrounding thread was rooting for Naya Rivera from Glee & Devious Maids. I do think she would be a good choice.

I'm ok with losing Megalyn, I don't think she was great or bad, she got the job done. I am glad though that they are not just recasting her. I do think that should her availability open up, it would be nice to see her reprise the role in a small capacity.from time to time.

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Lokiberry

Lokiberry

Man, I hated her in 4400, but that was probably because Baby Killabelle was such a tough act to follow. I would have been fine with her joining LoT. Well, except for being disappointed that we're not getting Lady Blackhawk.

Naya Rivera has been a favorite of mine since her Glee days, and I'd love to see her in the flarrowverse. She's a much better actress than CR, and she has fantastic comic timing.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

I only remember him from that Amanda Bynes/Jennie Garth show "What I Like About You". But another dude, if they are going to pick random unknown heroes why can't they choose a woman? 

I wonder if one of the crossovers they do can be MB playing Power Girl on whatever Earth this version of the JSA is from. They kind of have a couple members with a version of ATOM and a version of Black(White) Canary. 

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nksarmi

nksarmi

It says his grandfather was Commander Steel, a former member of the Justice Society of America. Does that confirm JSA is in the past? That doesn't make a lot of sense since not even Rip knows about them - which is why I assumed the Legends had changed things enough that JSA was knew (something they form as an alternate to Vandal to prevent the looming alien invasion perhaps?). I guess they could be from another Earth.

*Futuristic or Earth whatever number you want - I'd love to see MG play Power Girl for an episode.

Lokiberry

Lokiberry

3 hours ago, FurryFury said:

Never heard about that show. We'll see, I suppose. But I have this horrible suspicion that we'll get a sorta-Steve Rogers/Sharon Carter scenario with him and proto-Vixen because she was described as being in love with his grandfather (probably) in the casting call.

Oh, gag me if that's true. I don't think I could take it.

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Proteus

Proteus

10 hours ago, FurryFury said:

Never heard about that show. We'll see, I suppose. But I have this horrible suspicion that we'll get a sorta-Steve Rogers/Sharon Carter scenario with him and proto-Vixen because she was described as being in love with his grandfather (probably) in the casting call.

I don't think the Vixen description mentioned who she was in love with. 

Sakura12

Sakura12

8 hours ago, WildcardC said:

So?

Mari Mccabe is 100% black

And on Arrow the actress playing her is half black. The discussion was about Naya not being black, when technically she is. Are there plenty of %100 black actresses, sure. There are also lots of mixed races and our identities shouldn't be erased because we are we mixed. 

Because comics has less meaning on these shows since they have proven to not be following the comics verbatim.

I'd rather see Meagan Tandy or Nicole Beharie be past Vixen. If they cast Naya at least I've seen that she can act. I just don't want another Hawk people issue. 

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Kromm

Kromm

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

And on Arrow the actress playing her is half black. The discussion was about Naya not being black, when technically she is. Are there plenty of %100 black actresses, sure. There are also lots of mixed races and our identities shouldn't be erased because we are we mixed. 

Because comics has less meaning on these shows since they have proven to not be following the comics verbatim. 

Yeah, the comics version is indeed tougher to follow with an even more varied casting approach, because undeniably the comics version HAS to be 100% black (the origin being her coming from a small African village attacked by poachers). But the comics seem to be a starting point at most and not any kind of commitment. 

I don't know if we're supposed to take the "this new one is an ancestor" thing literally or not. Clearly the new character is going to be from Mari's family line, but the classic dodge for that (to have a "ancestor" who doesn't really resemble a character) would be to have someone be a sibling of the actual ancestor. That said, if you ditch the African village origin, you don't even need such a dodge. You do have to contend with historical realities a bit, but it can be done.  I mean outside of the past few generations, typically you only got people who'd be 1/4 black like Naya Rivera by a series of ugly events--master/slave rapes over two generations. So... no Africa origin. So sure you could use her for a previous Vixen. If they're willing to roll with a backstory that's in line with that. 

Kromm

Kromm

6 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

If you watch the origin on CW Seed (showcanon AFAIK), they didn't ditch the African village at all, so I think that Naya Rivera is far too not-African-looking to be able to take the role.  I'd love to see Naya on one of these shows, but I don't believe this is the spot for her.

I did see it, but figured they could retconn it somehow. 

I forget, did they even try and explain Mari's complexion in that via a parent who wasn't from the village?

Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)

Lots can happen to a family line in throughout history. A family line is connected through DNA not what race you are. I'm half Asian and half white, does that mean I'm not connected to my Asian ancestors? 

I'm not saying Naya's the perfect fit, she's not. I gave my other choices of actresses that are black. I'm just saying we can't discount people as being a race just because they don't look it. 

Edited by Sakura12
Kromm

Kromm

(edited)
10 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Lots can happen to a family line in throughout history. A family line is connected through DNA not what race you are. I'm half Asian and half white, does that mean I'm not connected to my Asian ancestors? 

I'm not saying Naya's the perfect fit, she's not. I gave my other choices of actresses that are black. I'm just saying we can't discount people as being a race just because they don't look it. 

Yes, but you are bringing a modern sensibility about mixing race to this. We don't lose anything from our modern enlightenment by acknowledging it wasn't always that way, do we?

The pre-20th century explanation of race mixing was virtually almost always rape--this is perhaps even moreso with black people than most, but to a certain extent it's likely even true for other races. So a character who's mixed race in a pre-20th century story often has to either be a fantasy character, or be a hard truth. Both can work, but the creators of the fantasy character have to be prepared for some criticism, whereas the creators of a hard truth character have to be prepared to do some tough accurate research to write it correctly. 

And if we're being honest, it's not always that enlightened even in the modern world. I'm taking from your username that your Asian part is Japanese. Most Westerners seem to be okay with that (although there's still going to be the occasional KKK wacko who isn't, I suppose), but in Japan you'd be labeled a "Hafu", and many people would be polite to you on the surface but strongly disapprove of you behind your back (and if asked if you represented Japan, like this lady, as they did with her many would complain that you don't). 

Edited by Kromm
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Proteus

Proteus

(edited)
1 hour ago, FurryFury said:

It wasn't in the Vixen description, but in the earlier casting call that wasn't yet revealed to be her.

I remember that casting call. It never alluded at all to the AA female being cast being connected to the Han Solo types character.

This is all it said:

"Also being cast for Legends Season 2 is the female member of an elite paramilitary team living in the 1940s. An African-American, she is scrutinized in her time for both her gender and race and thus has worked twice as hard to be a perfect soldier. That said, she blames herself for — and aims to avenge — the death of a team member for whom she had repressed feelings."

Edited by Proteus
Kromm

Kromm

6 minutes ago, Proteus said:

I remember that casting call. It never alluded at all to the AA female being cast being connected to the Han Solo types character.

This is all it said:

"Also being cast for Legends Season 2 is the female member of an elite paramilitary team living in the 1940s. An African-American, she is scrutinized in her time for both her gender and race and thus has worked twice as hard to be a perfect soldier. That said, she blames herself for — and aims to avenge — the death of a team member for whom she had repressed feelings."

Wow, the hoops they are going to have to jump through to have a female black elite paramilitary member from the 1940s. The Tuskegee Airmen started in 1940, so to have some secret even more elite force that also includes women is an even bigger hoop.

My fear is that working so hard to justify this, it winds up feeling silly and overly manipulated instead.

You know from the 1940s the natural character to have would have been Lady Blackhawk. A REALLY beloved character with an insane fanbase. I find myself wondering if that would have been a better way to do this. Lady Blackhawk is already a real fantasy character, so making her black would have been stepping only a little further along that ledge. And many fanboys & fangirls would have been overjoyed for ANY version of that character to exist. The name might have been a sticking point (it being a little too on the nose for a black character), but you could have played that as intentional.

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Starfish35

Starfish35

I still wish that had been Lady Blackhawk instead of another version of Vixen.  I know they love the character, but the whole mystical animal powers thing is just not my personal favorite thing.  And I'm just imagining a lot more terrible CGI next season (the Vixen episode of Arrow was pretty bad).   

I can see, though, them wanting another female character with powers.  But surely the DC universe is not so devoid of female characters with powers that they had to recreate a character that already existed. :( 

Sorry.  I'm just feeling grumpy this morning.  I had high hopes for the two new characters after the casting calls came out, but my enthusiasm has been rather deflated. 

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Sakura12

Sakura12

You're not alone in that I wish they would use Lady Blackhawk instead of another Vixen. Especially since the original actress isn't available. Choose a different character. I've never heard of Citizen Steel. Lady Blackhawk is a better known character than him.  The only female member of an elite paramilitary team is basically Zinda's story. I have no idea why they are making the character Vixen. 

And if we're being honest, it's not always that enlightened even in the modern world. I'm taking from your username that your Asian part is Japanese. Most Westerners seem to be okay with that (although there's still going to be the occasional KKK wacko who isn't, I suppose), but in Japan you'd be labeled a "Hafu", and many people would be polite to you on the surface but strongly disapprove of you behind your back (and if asked if you represented Japan, like this lady, as they did with her many would complain that you don't).

I'm Icelandic/Norwegian and Japanese, I'm a weird mixture so I know about that. I visited Japan 2 years ago with my family to visit family. Everyone can tell me and my siblings are half. White people consider me Asian, Asian people consider me White. I guess I don't get to belong anywhere.

Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)

I have to be honest.  A large part of my grumpiness is due to my disappointment about it not being Lady Blackhawk.  When the casting call came out I was pretty convinced that's who we were getting.  Not 100% convinced, but enough to get excited.  And it turning out to be (another version of) Vixen was quite a let down.  :(  Especially since Vixen is not a character I'm terribly fond of in the first place.  If we were getting Vixen AND Lady Blackhawk?  Great.  But getting her instead of Lady Blackhawk has made me rather grumpy. 

Edited by Starfish35
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squidprincess

squidprincess

(edited)
1 hour ago, Kromm said:

Wow, the hoops they are going to have to jump through to have a female black elite paramilitary member from the 1940s. The Tuskegee Airmen started in 1940, so to have some secret even more elite force that also includes women is an even bigger hoop.

My fear is that working so hard to justify this, it winds up feeling silly and overly manipulated 

It's an alternate Earth with Superheroes. I don't really think they need a lot of justification.  Proto-Vixen may just be a special case because she has powers.  Or the society developed a little differently.  (Like Marvel's Howling Commandos being integrated long before the real USA had integrated teams.)

I'm not sure how she'd be any more or less likely than a black Lady Blackhawk.  It sounds like the same role idea but with a different name.

Edited by squidprincess
Kromm

Kromm

23 minutes ago, squidprincess said:

It's an alternate Earth with Superheroes. I don't really think they need a lot of justification.  Proto-Vixen may just be a special case because she has powers.  Or the society developed a little differently.  (Like Marvel's Howling Commandos being integrated long before the real USA had integrated teams.)

I'm not sure how she'd be any more or less likely than a black Lady Blackhawk.  It sounds like the same role idea but with a different name.

She wouldn't be any more or less likely. My point was if you had to stretch anyway, better to go with the character people really want to see from that period.

tarotx

tarotx

I'm thinking that Parliamentary team where the new female character tried to be a perfect soldier will have been the JSA . The casting announcements went out before the season finale so the JSA was a secret. So some things about race relations will come into effect but others not so much since we are talking about superheroes. 

I think they want a character with a cool power and they already have the basis for the Vixen power down. 

FurryFury

FurryFury

2 hours ago, Proteus said:

I remember that casting call. It never alluded at all to the AA female being cast being connected to the Han Solo types character.

This is all it said:

"Also being cast for Legends Season 2 is the female member of an elite paramilitary team living in the 1940s. An African-American, she is scrutinized in her time for both her gender and race and thus has worked twice as hard to be a perfect soldier. That said, she blames herself for — and aims to avenge — the death of a team member for whom she had repressed feelings."

Um, I guess it was just speculation, but we were guessing she had an unrequited crush on the other dude's grandfather. It just feels like something MG could write, I dunno. Anyway, let's hope we won't get another Hawkmance disaster.

squidprincess

squidprincess

2 hours ago, tarotx said:

I'm thinking that Parliamentary team where the new female character tried to be a perfect soldier will have been the JSA . The casting announcements went out before the season finale so the JSA was a secret. So some things about race relations will come into effect but others not so much since we are talking about superheroes. 

I think they want a character with a cool power and they already have the basis for the Vixen power down. 

This character also has ties to an existing character who was well received by fans, which means a good chance we will take to her, and may even bring the possibilities of guest appearances and legacy/inheritance themes.  I can see why they went that way over Lady Blackhawk, who is great but only really known to comic book fans.

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Sakura12

Sakura12

(edited)
Quote

I can see why they went that way over Lady Blackhawk, who is great but only really known to comic book fans.

As was Vixen until they gave her an web series and had her appear on Arrow. Lady Blackhawk would be much cheaper too. She doesn't require any CGI and with the limited usage of their CGI characters last season it's seems pointless to add another. They had Sara do almost all the battle scenes by herself and then had the rest of the team come in and play laser tag.

Vixen is going to be another character not using their full powers in most of the episodes. I'd rather they get heroes without flashy powers. Super strength, mind control, telekinesis, those require less CGI. Having light up animals behind the hero requires lots of CGI and they don't have the budget for that. 

Edited by Sakura12
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MarkHB

MarkHB

TBH, I don't think the animation they used for Vixen's spirit animals was terribly expensive, especially since they already created several of the models (big cat, gorilla, maybe elephant?) for the Arrow episode.  It might be entertaining and expensive for her to try to channel an octopus, but I don't really see that happening :) .

I wonder if they were afraid that Lady Blackhawk would invite "Agent Carter ripoff" comparisons.

squidprincess

squidprincess

(edited)

They've laid a lot of groundwork for Vixen.  So even though she may have been comparatively unknown before, she isn't now.  It seems silly to let all that groundwork go to waste.

I'd suspect Vixen's powers are part of the draw.  They're versatile, fun, and fill a niche that the group doesn't.  Lady Blackhawk is a fun character, but she's another non-powered physical fighter.  We've got Sara (hand to hand), Rip (anachronistic looking firearms),  and the Rogues and Ray with fancier gizmos.  Firestorm is the only actual meta left now that the Hawks are gone.

Besides, they might be able to afford Vixen's powers since they don't have to deal with the Hawk wings any more.

Edited by squidprincess
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CabotCove

CabotCove

(edited)
Quote

And on Arrow the actress playing her is half black. The discussion was about Naya not being black, when technically she is. Are there plenty of %100 black actresses, sure. There are also lots of mixed races and our identities shouldn't be erased because we are we mixed. 

Because comics has less meaning on these shows since they have proven to not be following the comics verbatim.

Yeah Im aware the Berlanti crew & CW in general have a habit of casting mixed races actors for black roles. But at least Megalyn, had an african parent and name, that bit tied her closer to the character of Mari. It wasnt the idea casting but its far better than this rumor casting. To go from 1/2 black to 1/4, wow how blatant with racial discrimination can you get, this is a character who is supposed to have originated from a black nation. They are already a very few roles for prominently black or dark people. Mixed race people should be cast for mixed race roles, its 2016, there should be roles beyond just black,white,asian.

Except the comics do matter when it comes to casting white superheroes, otherwise who would have an Asian Oliver or Black Barry or mixed.  

Quote

I still wish that had been Lady Blackhawk instead of another version of Vixen.

Well if its another version of Vixen and not Mari, I can see how she might not be African or could be mixed race. Still not keen on Naya though, for this role. 

Quote

White people consider me Asian, Asian people consider me White. I guess I don't get to belong anywhere.

White people consider me Asian, Asian people consider me White. I guess I don't get to belong anywhere. You can choose to belong in both?, or maybe a 3rd option?, MR is its own identity too. Just my 2 cents.

Edited by WildcardC
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Starfish35

Starfish35

(edited)
Quote

Well if its another version of Vixen and not Mari, I can see how she might not be African or could be mixed race. Still not keen on Naya, though for this role.

It's not Mari.  It's, best I can tell, someone from an earlier time period who had the totem.  Perhaps an ancestor, although that would be risky.  If she dies on a mission, Mari gets wiped out of existence.  

Edited by Starfish35
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kismet

kismet

(edited)

Honestly my thoughts are that the LoT showrunners probably wanted Lady Blackhawk which is why they put out that casting notice. However, DC for whatever reason is not permitting them to use Lady Blackhawk, So they are improvising by making the character a Vixen ancestor. It's similar to when Arrow wanted to do Blue Beetle, but got declined so they did the ATOM instead. I'm not a comics reader but there are people on these forums that are and have said that Ray's characterization was less Atom and more Beetle. Mostly it was a amalgamation of whatever the writers created to fit their needs. I have no doubt that this new character will be similar, in which they pull a name from the comics and then do whatever they want with the characterization. From what I can see, the Berlanti universe is very comfortable with using a comic name and greatly altering the character almost to the point of non-recognition to suit their needs or limitations.

Edited by kismet
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squidprincess

squidprincess

Honestly, I've never seen anything to indicate that LoT were thinking about Lady Blackhawk at all.  All we'd ever seen was that they were planning an African-American woman from WWII.  There wasn't anything specific to the Blackhawks themselves in the casting call.  It was a logical assumption, based on the paramilitary team, but it was fan-side speculation that brought up Lady Blackhawk, not the creators.

From the press release about Vixen, and the comments on Megalyn EK's availability, it actually sounds like they were always planning to use Vixen, but with Megalyn EK being unavailable, they found another way to do it.  This seems more of a Sara-as-Black Canary sort of situation than a Ray Palmer/Atom situation.  They're creating an original character to fill a comic book inspired role because the actual character isn't ready/available.

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