Spoilers & Speculation: Running Hot & Cold

[kismet]

Fair Enough :) Hopefully LoT will get a longer run. Maybe not 23, but 18-20 might be a good fit. I think these writers do better with a more compact season. I dread what s1 would have been like if we got more filler episodes of the Hawks & VS. SG only had 20 episodes and it seemed perfect, just enough filler episodes but still enough momentum on the main story & character development.

[Sakura12]

I think the LoT team needs to get Barry under check, he accomplished what Savage wanted to do. He's another person they should've kept an eye on. 

[nksarmi]

9 hours ago, kismet said:

Fair Enough :) Hopefully LoT will get a longer run. Maybe not 23, but 18-20 might be a good fit. I think these writers do better with a more compact season. I dread what s1 would have been like if we got more filler episodes of the Hawks & VS. SG only had 20 episodes and it seemed perfect, just enough filler episodes but still enough momentum on the main story & character development.

I want a shorter seas as well unless they spin off and do little mini-arcs with two regulars and a guest star. Like I wouldn't mind a longer season if we got a lot of cool sub stories. Sara and Mick work with Manhunter for a mission while Ray works with Red Beetle on a different episode and then the third episode ties both of those missions together into a bigger story - stuff like that. And no ship romance for Ray. He can flirt with a guest character for an episode or two - but that's it!

Regarding Barry - the team so needs to show up and put his ass in check. They might be "bad" time travelers but they aren't doing bad things intentionally!

[Sakura12]

I'm sure if Rip told Sara that saving Laurel would cause the world to collapse in on itself resetting the entire universe. She'd be like okay, that's a no to saving my sister. While Barry hears that information and attempts to go do just that. 

Barry needs to be watched, since his friends are all enablers that don't seem to care about anyone's life but Barry's. 

[kismet]

Out of all of the Flarrowverse personalities & characters who would have guessed Barry would be the troublemaker?

[Sakura12]

I just hope he faces some real consequences for his actions this time and not get celebrated as a hero. The rest of them all pay for their mistakes and have to work to correct/change or live with what they did. While the Flash gets to carry on being a happy puppy that will do the same thing again and again because he never hears anyone tell him no. 

[Maverick]

I'm going with the theory that whatever technology the Time Masters use to read and travel through time only applies to changes made through like technology.   Since Barry's time travel escapades are driven by the Speed Force the Time Masters can't read it (so if Barry wipes out Central City they'd that was the orginal history just like everyone else).   That would explain why the time wraiths only attack Speedster-induced changes and not Rip's meddling.  I'm sure this mega-crossover will contradict that though.  

[KirkB]

What might have been interesting, to me at least, would have been the reveal that the Time Masters actually came about (directly or indirectly) as a result of Vandal Savage. Since they were working with him in the future, their stated goals of watching and maintaining time would really be to benefit Savage. Rip could never do anything to stop him because they were constantly working against him. So without Savage the Time Masters no longer have a purpose or a presence and it will be up to Rip to actually try and keep the timeline from unraveling.

The thing is, Barry hasn't (yet) done anything to radically alter the timeline. He stopped a tsunami from taking out Central City the first time. He caused and then helped close a major temporal breach the second time. The Time Masters didn't get involved there, if they even noticed, because it didn't do anything to impede Savage in the future. Maybe they would have stepped in if Kendra had been endangered. Now, with Savage out of the picture and the Time Masters no longer an issue, it depends on what effect Barry's latest time travel shenanigans have on the timeline to determine if Rip gets involved. In which case it's good Snart isn't around, I'm not sure he'd enjoy blasting Barry as much anymore. Mick, on the other hand...

[Sakura12]

I wonder if LoT is going to a different Earth for Season 2. The JSA is from another Earth in some of the comics. 

This is from an interview with John Wesley Shipp. 

Quote

For me, personally, as an actor, Henry Allen was rather closed-ended, he was there for a purpose, he served his purpose, it was time for him to die. The fact that I’m now getting to morph into an entirely different character that is so important to the Justice Society of America, which also bleeds into Legends of Tomorrow, he’s such an important character to this whole world – it just opens up enormous possibilities for me as an actor going forward, and the challenge for me, having played Henry,  is that I now get to create an entirely different character going forward.

http://www.cinemablend.com/television/Major-Flash-Character-May-Become-An-Important-Part-Legends-Tomorrow-140827.html

Edited May 26, 2016 by Sakura12

[MarkHB]

Good to hear he's going to be sticking around as the real Jay. Hopefully the audience accepts him.

It just occurred to me that they had talked about a floating character back before the season started... and now it's apparently going to happen with Cold.

[Sakura12]

I still don't understand why they can't use Alan Scott's Green Lantern or even Batman and Superman. I keep being told that DC is better for keeping their tv and movie universes separate. But I'm not seeing much of a benefit from that if only one character can exist. Marvel's excuse at least make sense why there can only be one. DC needs to give a better reason why they keep taking away or making characters unusable for the tv shows. 

We're not idiots, if Superman shows up on Supergirl, I'll know he's not the same as the one in the movies. The biggest indicator of that would be he would be played by a different actor! In their not connected at all universes it shouldn't matter.

[squidprincess]

It may have to do with licensing and fees.  One imagines that Superman and Batman would be a lot more expensive to license than characters like Rip Hunter, Green Arrow, or even the Flash.  CW may not be willing/able to shell out that much money at this point in time.

[Sakura12]

They make them get rid of the characters the tv shows already have because they are putting them in the movies. 

[KirkB]

It's odd, because DC has been pretty vocal about the fact they want to keep the TV and movie verses separate.

Yet they don't want to have Superman actually show up on Supergirl, presumably with a different actor (I doubt the budget could support Cavill, and from what I heard SLJ only appeared on AoS as a favor to Whedon) because it would somehow be too confusing for the audience. They also made Arrow get rid of Amanda Waller and Deadshot because they're using them in Suicide Squad, even though again they are being played by two different actors. 

On the flip side, they had Flash in BvS, played by a different actor. So it doesn't work both ways, apparently.

I'm confused. I mean, if Iron Man or Bruce Banner ever DID show up on AoS they would be played by RDJ and Mark Ruffalo. Marvel clearly wants their TV and movie verses to be connected, even if it's only tangentially. 

[MarkHB]

My hunch is that the Batman characters, including the Harley who appeared as an Easter Egg, and possibly the Huntress since she's heavily Bat-connected, are locked up under the control of Gotham.  Supergirl likely has the rights to a good chunk of the Superman mythos,  but they don't want to use him because they want Kara to stand as an independent hero.  And Waller is in a weird place, because while they killed her off in the present, there she was in the flashback in the Arrow finale.  So with the GLC movie not showing up until 2020, and the first JL movie confirmed as not having a Lantern, who knows if they can use Alan Scott in LoT or not.

[squidprincess]

I remember one of the reasons that it was stated that Booster Gold wouldn't be in Legends last year was that there were "plans" for him.  And it does sound like a movie is a go.  But considering that Legends had a fairly involved plot for 16 episodes anyway, it's not really clear where he would have fit in.  It might be more of a matter of "we're not planning to use the character yet" rather than "we're not going to because of the movie."

[nksarmi]

I am not 100% sure they made Arrow get ride of Amanda Waller. She has appeared several times this season and I would not be surprised at all if Legends go to use her in the past. I think Arrow killed her in order to make Lyla the head of Argus and no other reason.

I do think that Arrow had to give up Deadshot because of Will Smith though. I really think that was less of a DC won't share character choice and more of a "this A-list actor doesn't want to hear about how someone else does it better on television" kind of thing.

There will be two Barry Allen Flashes and I think Supergirl's choice not to show Superman has as much to do with wanting to emphasize that it's her show as what DC allows. I guess one way to know if it's DC calling the shots or not is if the movies ever use Martian Manhunter and we lose Hank on SG - I hope not, he is easily one of the best things about that show.

But I think the more successful the television shows are (especially with critiques saying things like the Supergirl/Flash crossover is everything BvS should have been) - the more DC will probably loosen the reigns. However, we will probably continue to only get vague references to Batman because of Gotham on FOX. I think we could get one of the Robins in the future though because Titans was going to use both Batgirl and Nightwing I believe.

25 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

My hunch is that the Batman characters, including the Harley who appeared as an Easter Egg, and possibly the Huntress since she's heavily Bat-connected, are locked up under the control of Gotham.  Supergirl likely has the rights to a good chunk of the Superman mythos,  but they don't want to use him because they want Kara to stand as an independent hero.  And Waller is in a weird place, because while they killed her off in the present, there she was in the flashback in the Arrow finale.  So with the GLC movie not showing up until 2020, and the first JL movie confirmed as not having a Lantern, who knows if they can use Alan Scott in LoT or not.

I think Green Lantern is a budget thing - I really do. It's like if Arrow ever does show Hal Jordan as a nod to comic fans who know he and Oliver were best friends - it will probably be before he became Green Lantern.

[KirkB]

Oh I wouldn't be at all surprised if a pre-GL Hal Jordan showed up on any of the shows. He's one of the characters no one else seems anxious to use, so DC is probably a little more lenient with his rights. 

[kismet]

Arrow did show a Jordan in a flight jacket at the beginning of s4, I think that is the best Arrow is going to do for budget & contractual reasons.

I think Arrow killed off Amanda Waller in the present for two reasons 1. they wanted Lyla to have more to do & 2. the actress looks like she wanted to book another pilot. Even if it was partially considered because of the movie, I do think that Arrow keeping her alive in the flashbacks is the best compromise.

As for LOT, I'm not sure what their budget can handle, but I imagine they are going to keep the expensive characters to a minimum even if they do the JLA. Plus the more unknown the characters, the more freedom the writers have with them. Which is why I think they like to write for characters like SL and not the Hawks. Because the Hawks have too much history and canon. It became obvious that they were better at writing original stories

[Sakura12]

Bringing this over from Arrow's Mind Your Surroundings thread. That's not what I wanted to hear. They are terrible at planning romances, they need just wait and see the chemistry between the actors and let it go from there. 

Savage has been vanquished, but the team's legendary journeys shall continue, as steered by the season-ending arrival of Hourman (played by Suits' Patrick J. Adams). With the DC Comics hero presenting "a fork in the road" for the Waverider crew, Season 2 will boast both "new characters" (including a">powered Han Solo type and a female soldier from the 1940s) and "a new dramatic engine," says showrunner Marc Guggenheim. And whereas Season 1 only dabbled with an ill-fated Ray/Kendra fling and simmering Sara/Snart sparks, the EP says, "There are seeds that we're going to start planting in Season 2" for other romantic developments.

http://tvline.com/gallery/2016-fall-tv-spoilers-photos-ncis-grimm-jane-the-virgin/#!14/undefined/

[nksarmi]

Crossing fingers that they mean planting seeds with guest stars that the characters mind end the series with. :)

[Starfish35]

For some reason, maybe just unfounded paranoia, I get the feeling they really would like to do Rip/Sara.  And I am just not feeling it, at all. :(

[Sakura12]

If they do Rip/Sara they really need to convince me that Rip has properly mourned his wife. I don't want Sara to be anyone's rebound choice. 

[FurryFury]

I like and kinda want Rip/Sara... But knowing these writers, they will screw it up if they go for it too soon.

[nksarmi]

On 6/2/2016 at 3:37 PM, FurryFury said:

I like and kinda want Rip/Sara... But knowing these writers, they will screw it up if they go for it too soon.

Oh for sure. Ray and Kendra might have worked at some point if they had developed her character and abandoned the Hawkman part of the love triangle. But instead it almost reversed all the good they had achieved with Ray's character. The saving grace would be that I think the actors could sell Rip and Sara even if the show goes too quickly with them.

[FurryFury]

That's true. I think both actors are miles above BR and CR (at least in these roles), and they have better chemistry. Plus, the have clearly defined roles on the show which hopefully would help to establish their relationship better and give it more nuance. But Arrowverse has such a bad track record regarding romance, it makes me automatically wary :/ I think the only well-written couple is Diggle and Lyla, and I haven't even seen them after s2 of Arrow (mostly).

[nksarmi]

8 hours ago, FurryFury said:

That's true. I think both actors are miles above BR and CR (at least in these roles), and they have better chemistry. Plus, the have clearly defined roles on the show which hopefully would help to establish their relationship better and give it more nuance. But Arrowverse has such a bad track record regarding romance, it makes me automatically wary :/ I think the only well-written couple is Diggle and Lyla, and I haven't even seen them after s2 of Arrow (mostly).

Diggle and Lyla are definately the best romantic couple in the Flarrowverse. Roy and Thea have had some good moments as well. I actually think Oliver has been written well with some of his pairings - Shado and Sara were both fine even if they were temporary. But Oliver and Felicity are an example where the actors save some really bad writing in my opinion. Of course, I think that bad writing is because the show feels the need to put the characters through needless angst.

So for me, I think how good or bad Rip and Sara would be would depend entirely on how much needless angst the show wanted to put them through. They already took two actors who had less chemistry and two less interesting characters (Ray and Kendra) and poured heaping amounts of angst on them and it did NOT work. I would hope they learned something from that. But even if they didn't - I think Caity and Rory (?) could save Rip and Sara like Stephen and Emily save Oliver and Felicity. I would just prefer the writing be good and there be no need for actors having to spin crap into gold.

Edited June 5, 2016 by nksarmi

[Sakura12]

9 hours ago, nksarmi said:

I think Caity and Rory (?) could save Rip and Sara like Stephen and Emily save Oliver and Felicity. I would just prefer the writing be good and there be no need for actors having to spin crap into gold.

Arthur Darvill. Rory was the name of his character on Doctor Who. 

I have no doubt that CL and AD could sell a relationship if the writers go that way. CL did that when the writers suddenly made Oliver and Sara date. We all knew it wasn't going to last but I understood why they tried. It's funny that CL keeps saying at Cons including the most recent Phoenix Con yesterday, that she thinks Sara and Rip have a brother/sister relationship. That's how I see them too. The writers however will do whatever they want to do. I think CL really understand the character of Sara and if they say Sara's fallen for Rip she will play it that way.

For me I just hope the Sara and Mick friendship stays strong. Rogue Canary's down to two and I need those two to still hang out and drink or play cards to honor Leonard. 

[nksarmi]

7 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Arthur Darvill. Rory was the name of his character on Doctor Who. 

I have no doubt that CL and AD could sell a relationship if the writers go that way. CL did that when the writers suddenly made Oliver and Sara date. We all knew it wasn't going to last but I understood why they tried. It's funny that CL keeps saying at Cons including the most recent Phoenix Con yesterday, that she thinks Sara and Rip have a brother/sister relationship. That's how I see them too. The writers however will do whatever they want to do. I think CL really understand the character of Sara and if they say Sara's fallen for Rip she will play it that way.

For me I just hope the Sara and Mick friendship stays strong. Rogue Canary's down to two and I need those two to still hang out and drink or play cards to honor Leonard. 

I think it would take all of another season for me to believe Sara and Rip have fallen for each other. I think Cold was smitten with her right from the start and I think she warmed up to him pretty quickly. With the promise that we will see Cold next season, I don't think they can entirely kill that potential - especially since this is a time travel show and they can bring him back with any plot contrivance they want. I mean, I know death is supposed to count on this show, but Cold's death was odd to say the least - so there is wiggle room.

I think there is potential with Sara and Rip, but he needs time to really get over his wife and she needs time to really trust him. They could go that direction at some point because he does respect the hell out of her and she does a good job of calling him on his BS and I bet they'd make one hell of a working duo in general. But even if the writers rush it - they'd have to give it time to be accepted as anything other than a fling (ie "fallen for each other").

[Starfish35]

I guess I'll be the odd one out, and say I just don't see any chemistry there. *shrug*  That's just me.  It doesn't have anything to do with him being married or anything. And they're both fine actors.  I just don't feel it.  That episode where they went undercover together? Yeah I got nothing from that, and I felt like that episode was tailor-made to set up that ship.  Even the scene where he talks to her about Laurel - that's the kind of scene that would normally have me have all the shipping feelings.  But again, I got nothing.  I don't know why.  I can usually come up with a reason why I'm not shipping a ship, but honestly, in this case all I've got is the chemistry just doesn't work for me, at all.  It's not Lauriver levels of awful, but it just isn't there for me either. *shrug* 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Starfish35
Mixed up names

[Sakura12]

If Snart comes back then I think Sara would start something with him over Rip. Rip may respect her but she doesn't appear to respect him too much. It's Leonard she respects. I think even though Kendra and Ray dated, Sara and Leonard got the closest on the team. They were shown hanging out and getting to know each other better. I think Mick was surprised how much Snart told Sara. 

Rip only confided mission stuff to Sara and treated her like his second. He didn't really get to know her as a person and she didn't seem that interested in getting to know him. They kept things professional. Like CL has said I saw more bickering siblings than romantic pairing with Rip and Sara. The only thing I think is that if the writers choose the romantic path, CL and AD can sell it. I still don't think I'd enjoy them as much Sara/Snart but I'd buy them more than Ray/Kendra. They would however have to convince me that Rip was truly over his wife first. As I said before Sara is no ones rebound. 

Edited June 5, 2016 by Sakura12

[nksarmi]

Sara and Snart might rank right up with Diggle and Lyla as my favorite Flarrowverse couple and they never really got the chance to be a couple. But I might be the only Flarrowverse fan who really, really liked Oliver and Sara together. Of course, I was binge watching season two on Netflix so somehow it didn't feel like it came out of nowhere for me.

I just thought they worked really well together and I know I was suppose to be feeling bad Laurel in all of that - but I guess I was holding to my head canon that she was really hurting over Tommy and didn't harbor any true feelings for Oliver anymore so it wasn't that big of a deal. I almost must admit that I didn't know Black Canary's real name was Dinah Laurel Lance so I kind of thought that Sara/Oliver WAS the comic book BC/GA romance. Silly summer child I was. :)

Anyway, while I don't think I'd ever like Rip/Sara as much as Sara/Snart - I could buy into it. My standards are low though because I was totally ok with Kendra/Ray (I thought they were kind of cute at one point) until it became obvious that all the "I choose you!" crap was utter bullshit and she was going to end up with Carter after all. At least they are together off somewhere in Flarrowverse guest star land so I don't have to watch their canon love story anymore.

Most of my favorite Flarrowverse ships will never happen but I don't mind as long as what I do have to watch is fun. On that note, I wonder when we will start to hear more about the new characters or potential guest stars. I like romance on my show, but in the case of Legends - I think I prefer it be mostly non-ship romances so I'm hoping the show runners will let the guest stars do the heavy lifting in the flirty/romance department in season two.

[Sakura12]

What I didn't like about Sara/Oliver was I knew it was just a block relationship and wasn't going anywhere. I could've liked them if they explored them more. It also would've been better if they were together on the island and Shado was with Slade. Then Slade hating Oliver over Shado's death would've meant more because it would've looked like Oliver choose his girlfriend over Shado. 

I don't get invested in Ships anymore. I liked Sara/Snart but am not crying that they aren't together. If he comes back and they do, great. If he doesn't and she finds someone else, great. I don't get stuck on one pairing having to be together for me to enjoy the show. I'd rather just watch the characters interact and grow. That's more important to me than who they are sleeping with or in love with. 

As for finding out more info for next season the LoT writers started working on Season 2 last week. I think they start filming at the end of June. We'll probably get more info closer to SDCC which is on July 21st. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by Sakura12

[Starfish35]

Quote

My standards are low though because I was totally ok with Kendra/Ray (I thought they were kind of cute at one point) until it became obvious that all the "I choose you!" crap was utter bullshit and she was going to end up with Carter after all. 

Lol same here.  :) And I loved Barry/Patty and most of the Flash fandom was all "boo hiss". :)  Which is why I'm having a hard time figuring out why I'm balking at this.  I would say probably because Rip isn't my favorite character, and I imagine that's certainly a factor, but I don't think that's all of it, because there's other characters I can ship him with.  *shrug*  Don't know.  

[Starfish35]

Yeah, I could have gotten invested in Sara/Oliver, but it was very very obvious it was just a block relationship as Sakura12 says.  They gave it less attention than Ray/Kendra.  As far as Sara/Snart goes, I wasn't heavily invested either.  I preferred it to the other choices, but...it was never an OTP. 

[kismet]

I do see more a sibling vibe with Sara/Rip. I hope they keep it that way.

I never saw romance between Cold/Sara, but I liked them sharing a scene, so I won't balk at it.

I definitely saw a deep friendship between Sara/Oliver. I never saw romance, but them sleeping together was pretty expected for me. The lunge was a shock, but the hooking up was pretty routine as shows go.

I do like Patty & Barry. I wish they would just dropnCaitlin and kept Patty. But that would screw up their WestAllen plans. Oh well.

[FurryFury]

Patty felt like an artificial construction to me, an attempt to recreate Felicity and possibly even Olicity without any actual understanding as to why they got such a huge following, so it never worked for me. Of course, The Flash is generally terrible, romance-wise. Although I'd be down for Henry/Tina McGee if they didn't kill him off the same episode they've introduced the pairing. And I could even see Wells/Caitlyn down the line, DP is somehow not as horrible when acting against Tom Cavanaugh (although I generally dislike huge age gaps in romantic relationships).

I have negative memories of Sara/Oliver because of all the huge Sara hate that followed it immediately. The classic "die for our ship" from Olicity fans.

[Sakura12]

The Sara hate got pretty bad. Which made no sense being it was obvious she was a block and not a threat to Olicity. I guess anyone that comes between a popular ship going get to hate. I just liked the bond that Sara and Oliver had. I loved seeing that bond with Sara and old man Oliver. I'm still bitter we never got any scenes with after her resurrection. 

Patty was another block whom I also think was to show us that childlike Barry wasn't a virgin. If we look at it, Iris was living with her boyfriend than got engaged while Barry still needed his 500 father figures to tell him he was a good boy. They needed to show us that Barry was an adult like her. 

I really hope this new female hero receives better writing. Even though I'm not holding my breath since her storyline involves an unrequited crush. Don't care too much about yet another male character added to the other new male character with all the other male characters already on the show. 

Edited June 7, 2016 by Sakura12

[kismet]

I'm glad I wasn't around for the Sara hate. Although I must admit once SL became the LI was when I lost track of the show for a little bit. It got back on track when she left him. So it's probably best I just zoomed through those episodes. I didn't have to linger in the what is the show stupidly trying to do now.

[tarotx]

So a Vixen is coming?

http://www.tvinsider.com/article/90519/dcs-legends-of-tomorrow-recruits-vixen-with-a-twist/

[Starfish35]

My question is whether this is the same character that they had the casting call for, or a different one.  Because I liked the idea of Lady Blackhawk. :(

[Sakura12]

If they can't get the Vixen actress why not just use another character? I doubt anyone's going to use Lady Blackhawk in the movies. 

[nksarmi]

1 hour ago, Starfish35 said:

My question is whether this is the same character that they had the casting call for, or a different one.  Because I liked the idea of Lady Blackhawk. :(

I'm hoping it's another character so we get Lady Blackhawk as a regular and this older Vixen for just a two or three episode run.

[Sakura12]

If the Justice Society is from another Earth, they can just go with a different person took the title of Vixen.

[Proteus]

48 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

I'm hoping it's another character so we get Lady Blackhawk as a regular and this older Vixen for just a two or three episode run.

It says this new Vixen will be a series regular.

[nksarmi]

32 minutes ago, Proteus said:

It says this new Vixen will be a series regular.

Oh I missed that in the article. I do hope it's another character (because three women would be awesome!) but I guess she will probably be the WWII character then.

[benteen]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/06/07/dcs-legends-of-tomorrow-introducing-different-version-of-vixen

Megalyn EK won't be able to reprise the role due to her schedule so it will be another actress.  That's too bad.  EK was really good on Arrow and one of the highlights of that show's season.  If they can't get her for Legends, I think they'd be better off using another character instead.

[squidprincess]

Sounds like she'll be another character.  Same superhero name, but an ancestor, or older relative.  That could actually be pretty cool.  It would also open up the possibility of bringing Megalyn EK back for a team up should she become available.

[MarkHB]

Given that Vixen's powers stem from her ancestry and the totem, they have a wide range of possibilities they could choose from.  Although, I would have loved to see Megalyn continue as Mari.

[Maverick]

 I think it's a good idea.   The totem being passing from generation to generation is an established part of the character, it adds someone to the crew with a connection to the present with a direct relationship and since it's a time travel show they really should be pulling heroes from different eras.   I really want them to cast Gina Torres for this but I know there's about zero chancce of that.