All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Bastet]

I was going to only watch the arc with Carter and his mom, but wound up watching all the ones in between, too.  I despise Benton and Jackie during the storyline with Roger; his visitation request was completely reasonable, and close to what the judge wound up ordering anyway, yet the two Bentons acted like he was dirt under their shoes and once Carla died he should just disappear from Reese's life.  Best interests of the child, assholes.

But I will always love Benton's final scene with Carter.  It's so perfectly them.

I will also always love Carter getting such a big turning point with his mom, and wish they'd made a few references to Eleanor over the years so we knew that renewed relationship continued.  Seeing them each realize what the other has been carrying ever since Bobby's death is great, and then the two of them helping that boy through his treatment gets me choked up.

I had completely forgotten about Gamma's hit and run.  We see where Carter gets his callous attitude towards pets from -- she didn't know she hit a person, but she knew she hit a dog and didn't stop, or care.

Speaking of pets, I love that Kerry takes Stinky home with her.

I've complained - again - quite recently about Chen returning with a snotty attitude like she did nothing wrong, so I won't do it again, but I will say in that same episode I am 100% on Kerry's side when she gets upset at Sandy for kissing her at work.  Kerry has the right to decide not to be out at work.  Sandy has the right to decide she doesn't want to date someone like that.  She does not have the right to out a person!

I know this is a repeat, too, but it has been a while -- I just adore that in the episode where Ella OD's on Rachel's ecstasy, Alex Kingston is made up to look like someone who has the stomach flu and spent the entire previous night on the toilet.  Most sick TV characters have artfully messy hair and pink cheeks.  She looks sick, and then positively wretched in the PICU.  (On a more substantive note, I also love how very angry she is at Mark for his continued refusal to deal with Rachel's behavior in any meaningful way.)

Edited January 15 by Bastet

[txhorns79]

3 hours ago, Bastet said:

I despise Benton and Jackie during the storyline with Roger (his visitation request was completely reasonable, and close to what the judge wound up ordering anyway, yet the two Bentons acted like he was dirt under their shoes and once Carla died he should just disappear from Reese's life.  Best interests of the child, assholes.

I was surprised by how callous Jackie was written during that storyline.  However, I do kind of get how awkward it is for everyone.  After all, Carla didn't consider Peter at all before she brought Roger into Reese's life.  Peter only found out about him by accident.  They also didn't give any real consideration to Peter before Carla announced she and Roger were moving to Germany for his job.  Roger is in a grey zone where he has played a parental role, but isn't a parent.  It's hard to tell what his role should be, whether it should be permanent or whether he should be around but slowly eased out.      

[Cloud9Shopper]

@Bastet I think repeat opinions/posts are fine. It’s a show that ended nearly 15 years ago with no reboot (for the best IMO), so may as well repeat and recycle! :) 

I watched the premiere of S9 last night, and it made me think of what a good plot Romano’s amputation could have been in the long term if they hadn’t turned it into a cartoon in S10 where his prosthetic got stolen and the helicopter crushed him to death. His reaction when he realized he was being treated at County made me giggle a little bit.

I also kind of laughed that the lab at the beginning was in Hamburg because I had a throwback to Carla’s “Germany Hamburg” line. But I remember seeing the opening with the monkey being tranquilized on my first watch and thinking “oh this show really is going to change now that Mark is gone, and probably not for the better.”

I found myself wondering if shutting down the whole hospital but making the quarantined people stay behind was in any way realistic. I guess it could be but it also seemed like plot fodder…at the same time…what do I really know? 

Poor Elizabeth. My heart broke for her seeing how she was treated in England and how empty she felt with Mark gone. 

I always roll my eyes at Abby’s “I’m not broken” line. It sounds like something a 14-year-old girl would say. I never thought Carter was trying to imply that he needed to “fix” her or that he wanted to control her, but I do think she could be a lot more pleasant with some changes to her attitude and if she stopped the snooty teenage girl stuff. I mean, yeah, she has to want to change but I never thought Carter had malice behind what he was saying or wanted to hurt her either. 

 

[Heathen]

On 1/11/2024 at 6:02 PM, Bastet said:

I had completely forgotten about Gamma's hit and run.  We see where Carter gets his callous attitude towards pets from -- she didn't know she hit a person, but she knew she hit a dog and didn't stop, or care.

 

When did Carter display a callous attitude toward pets? As for Gamma, she was older, confused, driving at night, and she thought she hit a dog. I'm not sure she even knew where she was. 

[Bastet]

19 hours ago, Heathen said:

When did Carter display a callous attitude toward pets?

I looked up the title: "Partly Cloudy, Chance of Rain".  The dog owner who Gamma also hit found out her dog died as a result and broke down; Susan consoled her and Carter - outside the trauma room, at least, not in front of the patient - laughed at the reaction, and kept on even once it was clear Susan empathized, like the very idea of being upset by the death of a pet, never mind unexpectedly, traumatically, and right in front of you, was silly.

19 hours ago, Heathen said:

and she thought she hit a dog.

You're right, checking the script she thought she did, not knew she did.  Still a shit-ass move not to stop and see if she had and if the animal could be helped.  She didn't seem, in the recounting, to be didn't know what I was doing confused at the time she continued on home (which she states is what she thought best); she didn't care about the damage she inflicted until Carter told her it wasn't "just" a dog, as she'd told him she thought happened, it was also a young woman; only then, with a person involved, did she regret that she drove away without checking to see.  (She shortly after offered a generous settlement, rather than arguing the degree of her liability, to the owner, which would inevitably include a piddly amount under the law for the dog since they're considered property, but there's no indication she ever properly cared she killed an animal, only that she injured a person.)

Edited January 14 by Bastet

[Ceindreadh]

I had liked Carter's grandmother on her previous appearances, but I had no sympathy for her this episode.  Not only did she know she shouldn't be driving, but she had the means to avoid driving.   It would have been one thing if she'd needed to get somewhere and couldn't afford a taxi, but dammit, she probably had a car and chauffeur on staff.  There was no excuse for her to be behind the wheel. 

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

she probably had a car and chauffeur on staff.

Yes, Alger, who was in on it with Carter, trying to keep her from driving.  She said having a driver was her late husband's idea, so now that he's gone, it seems an unnecessary expense, but she apparently hadn't fired the poor guy, as he was the one who found her when she came home after the accident and slipped in the driveway.  So, yep, she had a driver right there at home, but drove herself despite having been told she could not drive because she was a danger to herself and others.

(Carter wasn't going to notify the DMV, as he was supposed to, but Susan made him do it [after she offered to do it herself since Gamma already doesn't like her], but I think the time frame is short enough they wouldn't have had a chance to revoke her license yet, and I doubt that would have stopped her, either.)

[txhorns79]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

[after she offered to do it herself since Gamma already doesn't like her],

I remember.  Gamma had come to the hospital to see Carter, and Susan gave her a bit of a hard time as she didn't know who she was.  Once she realized, she apologized, and Gamma made a cutting remark like: "Well, I guess you're only rude to strangers..." 

[Kel Varnsen]

On 1/11/2024 at 11:01 AM, GiandujaPie said:

I always wondered why they made Neela a Brit, like Parminder Nagra. It would have made more sense for her to be an American as there are a lot of American doctors of Indian descent

I can't remember, did they ever give much backstory as to why Neela didn't study medicine in the UK? From what I remember her parents weren't super rich, so I have to imagine that UK med school tuition would have to be cheaper than tuition for an international student in Chicago. Plus they never really explained the whole immigration status thing. Like med school I guess she had a student visa? Then work visa to be a resident. But my understanding is that work visas are typically tied to a specific job, so when she left her residency wouldn't she have to go home, rather than being able to work at a convenience store?

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I can't remember, did they ever give much backstory as to why Neela didn't study medicine in the UK? From what I remember her parents weren't super rich, so I have to imagine that UK med school tuition would have to be cheaper than tuition for an international student in Chicago. Plus they never really explained the whole immigration status thing. Like med school I guess she had a student visa? Then work visa to be a resident. But my understanding is that work visas are typically tied to a specific job, so when she left her residency wouldn't she have to go home, rather than being able to work at a convenience store?

In general, medical school is free in Great Britain.  The government subsidizes it as part of the provision of universal health care.  If med students accrued the hundreds of thousands in debt ($300,000+ is typical in the US), in England that they do in the US, no one could afford to pay off their loans on an NHS salary.  There are some foreign governments who pay to place students in US med schools, but not Britain, and those are limited seats, mainly from nations that don't have extensive higher educational systems.

In reality, no US med school will accept non US citizens as students.  They want people who are going to practice in the US.  I had a friend in undergrad who was born in Canada, to Canadian parents who moved to the US when he was 10.  He never naturalized, it just wasn't anything his parents thought about.  Then, when he hit his 3rd year in undergrad, he realized the problem and had to scramble to get citizenship in order to get into med school.  He did it, but it was not simple, even with a green card and longstanding residency.

Neela seemingly came to the US for undergrad; I seem to vaguely recall her mentioning Princeton or Yale at some point, but no one in her family lived in the US and there would be no reason for her to incur the kind of debt she would've been able to avoid by attending a British university.  I guess TPTB had to account for Parminder Nagra's British accent, but it was dumb.

BTW, in real life, Elizabeth could've come to the US and done a specialty fellowship as she did; but she was not qualified for a regular US medical license and would not have been able to practice in the US.  The British and US systems are very different and there is no reciprocity.  Someone graduating from a foreign medical school would have to do an entire residency, not just an internship, like Elizabeth did.  Doesn't matter what prior training she had or how much experience; it's an iron-clad rule.  Canadian medical schools/residencies are the only ones with full reciprocity with the US.  Many foreign medical graduates go to Canada for training or even to practice for a bit as a means of entering the US to practice medicine.

Edited January 14 by Notabug

[Kel Varnsen]

2 hours ago, Notabug said:

Neela seemingly came to the US for undergrad; I seem to vaguely recall her mentioning Princeton or Yale at some point, but no one in her family lived in the US and there would be no reason for her to incur the kind of debt she would've been able to avoid by attending a British university.  I guess TPTB had to account for Parminder Nagra's British accent, but it was dumb.

Most of my knowledge of US immigration laws comes from TV (either fiction or nonfiction shows) but my understanding is that if you are on a work visa it's tied to your job. So even if somehow UK citizen Neela could get a residency spot and a work visa it would be tied to her being a doctor I think. So she couldn't quit being a doctor like she did and just live on Abby's couch without getting deported could she? Is that why they had her marry Gallant to get around those issues? 

[Notabug]

5 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Most of my knowledge of US immigration laws comes from TV (either fiction or nonfiction shows) but my understanding is that if you are on a work visa it's tied to your job. So even if somehow UK citizen Neela could get a residency spot and a work visa it would be tied to her being a doctor I think. So she couldn't quit being a doctor like she did and just live on Abby's couch without getting deported could she? Is that why they had her marry Gallant to get around those issues? 

This is true.  She would also have to have the hospital's assistance in obtaining a visa and it would be difficult for County to claim that Neela had a unique skill that was not widely available amongst Americans.  There are plenty of US medical graduates looking for slots in residencies.

[txhorns79]

4 hours ago, Notabug said:

BTW, in real life, Elizabeth could've come to the US and done a specialty fellowship as she did; but she was not qualified for a regular US medical license and would not have been able to practice in the US. 

I'm pretty sure that was a plot point on the show.  When Romano refused to renew her fellowship, she did her intern year over again to get a license.  I don't know if that is how it would really have worked for her, but that was how they addressed it. 

[Bastet]

18 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I remember.  Gamma had come to the hospital to see Carter, and Susan gave her a bit of a hard time as she didn't know who she was.  Once she realized, she apologized, and Gamma made a cutting remark like: "Well, I guess you're only rude to strangers..." 

Which was all so stupid, because if the driver had said, "This is John Carter's grandmother, we need to see him" instead of just repeating they need to see Dr. Carter when Susan tried to explain how check-in works, there wouldn't have been any issue (or if Millicent had bothered to chime in at any point, but she was busy arguing with Alger that she didn't need to be there in the first place).  Which, of course, is why they wrote it the way they did instead.

Edited January 14 by Bastet

[Heathen]

7 hours ago, Notabug said:

In general, medical school is free in Great Britain.  The government subsidizes it as part of the provision of universal health care.  If med students accrued the hundreds of thousands in debt ($300,000+ is typical in the US), in England that they do in the US, no one could afford to pay off their loans on an NHS salary.  There are some foreign governments who pay to place students in US med schools, but not Britain, and those are limited seats, mainly from nations that don't have extensive higher educational systems.

In reality, no US med school will accept non US citizens as students.  They want people who are going to practice in the US.  I had a friend in undergrad who was born in Canada, to Canadian parents who moved to the US when he was 10.  He never naturalized, it just wasn't anything his parents thought about.  Then, when he hit his 3rd year in undergrad, he realized the problem and had to scramble to get citizenship in order to get into med school.  He did it, but it was not simple, even with a green card and longstanding residency.

Neela seemingly came to the US for undergrad; I seem to vaguely recall her mentioning Princeton or Yale at some point, but no one in her family lived in the US and there would be no reason for her to incur the kind of debt she would've been able to avoid by attending a British university.  I guess TPTB had to account for Parminder Nagra's British accent, but it was dumb.

BTW, in real life, Elizabeth could've come to the US and done a specialty fellowship as she did; but she was not qualified for a regular US medical license and would not have been able to practice in the US.  The British and US systems are very different and there is no reciprocity.  Someone graduating from a foreign medical school would have to do an entire residency, not just an internship, like Elizabeth did.  Doesn't matter what prior training she had or how much experience; it's an iron-clad rule.  Canadian medical schools/residencies are the only ones with full reciprocity with the US.  Many foreign medical graduates go to Canada for training or even to practice for a bit as a means of entering the US to practice medicine.

Yale, either biochemistry or microbiology. I remember that because somebody -- maybe Gallant or Pratt -- made a comment about how she must feel out of place. That was in her first episodes. 

Let's be real -- at the time Neela started in the ER, the show writers had already started up the train that soon went off the tracks. 

[Notabug]

6 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I'm pretty sure that was a plot point on the show.  When Romano refused to renew her fellowship, she did her intern year over again to get a license.  I don't know if that is how it would really have worked for her, but that was how they addressed it. 

Yes, I remember.  However, she only had to do a single year of internship.  In real life, she'd have had to complete an entire general surgery residency which is 5 years.  Not to mention all the fellowships she would've needed in trauma surgery, vascular surgery and transplant surgery in order to do all the varied things she did on the show.

[txhorns79]

So there is a lot I like about Season 15, and there is some dodgy stuff.  Archie's cop girlfriend of a couple of months gets shot.  They work on her in the ER, and she needs surgery.  Neela tells Archie that the surgery is such that she might even need a hysterectomy to stop the bleeding.  Archie says okay and they take her off for surgery, where she is fine.  My question was: How in the world can Archie give consent?  He's not her next of kin, and we already saw she has a big family living in the area.  (Though none of them are seen at the hospital)  It's also unlikely he has POA for her.  It just seemed silly.

On the positive side, I did love Courtney B. Vance slapping the guy at the adoption center upside the head for suggesting he would feel bad for whatever kid Banfield adopted. 

I also really liked Old Times.  Nice to see Doug and Carol are happily married (and enjoyed hearing their old theme from the show).  Also nice to see Benton back to help Carter.   

[Cloud9Shopper]

I love Archie and Claudia’s relationship and the Banfields’ marriage. It was nice to see some solid, loving relationships after the over-the-top drama of Abby and Luka and Sam and Gates in S14.

Side note: I just started watching 9-1-1 last week and am looking forward to seeing more of Angela Bassett’s character and her family dynamic there. 

[Notabug]

5 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

So there is a lot I like about Season 15, and there is some dodgy stuff.  Archie's cop girlfriend of a couple of months gets shot.  They work on her in the ER, and she needs surgery.  Neela tells Archie that the surgery is such that she might even need a hysterectomy to stop the bleeding.  Archie says okay and they take her off for surgery, where she is fine.  My question was: How in the world can Archie give consent?  He's not her next of kin, and we already saw she has a big family living in the area.  (Though none of them are seen at the hospital)  It's also unlikely he has POA for her.  It just seemed silly.

On the positive side, I did love Courtney B. Vance slapping the guy at the adoption center upside the head for suggesting he would feel bad for whatever kid Banfield adopted. 

I also really liked Old Times.  Nice to see Doug and Carol are happily married (and enjoyed hearing their old theme from the show).  Also nice to see Benton back to help Carter.   

Technically, since it was a life-threatening emergency, formal consent wasn't necessary.  ER docs and surgeons frequently deal with medical crises where the patient is not able to give consent and no next of kin are present.  The rule is that they are permitted to do what any reasonable person would want in that situation.  So, if her life was at stake, it would be reasonable to remove the uterus without specific permission.  Her uterus isn't going to do her much good if she doesn't survive.  I presume Neela spoke about it mainly to up the drama factor for the viewers, but also because Archie was her friend ad she knew them both.  In real life, the uterus is deep in the pelvis and pretty small and unlikely to be hit by a bullet in the first place, but there's no drama in that.  If it was hit by high powered ammo, it would probably be destroyed anyway and there'd be nothing to save.

Edited January 16 by Notabug

[Mrsmaul2021]

10 hours ago, Notabug said:

Technically, since it was a life-threatening emergency, formal consent wasn't necessary.  ER docs and surgeons frequently deal with medical crises where the patient is not able to give consent and no next of kin are present.  The rule is that they are permitted to do what any reasonable person would want in that situation.  So, if her life was at stake, it would be reasonable to remove the uterus without specific permission.  Her uterus isn't going to do her much good if she doesn't survive.  I presume Neela spoke about it mainly to up the drama factor for the viewers, but also because Archie was her friend ad she knew them both.  In real life, the uterus is deep in the pelvis and pretty small and unlikely to be hit by a bullet in the first place, but there's no drama in that.  If it was hit by high powered ammo, it would probably be destroyed anyway and there'd be nothing to save.

Like I mentioned, I have lurked for a long time and you and I are on opposite ends when it comes to certain characters but man, do I love the knowledge and wisdom you bring to this chat. 

[Dr.OO7]

On 1/14/2024 at 10:24 PM, Notabug said:

Yes, I remember.  However, she only had to do a single year of internship.  In real life, she'd have had to complete an entire general surgery residency which is 5 years.  Not to mention all the fellowships she would've needed in trauma surgery, vascular surgery and transplant surgery in order to do all the varied things she did on the show.

Ah, yes.

The "Surgeons Can Do Autopsies If They Want" trope. No matter what someone was specializing in and how long they've been doing it, they can switch to another one in the blink of eye rather than starting all over again in another residency the way you'd have to in real life.

Ironically, they actually addressed that when Carter and Neela had to do that when they decided to switch.

Edited January 16 by Dr.OO7

[Notabug]

2 hours ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Ah, yes.

The "Surgeons Can Do Autopsies If They Want" trope. No matter what someone was specializing in and how long they've been doing it, they can switch to another one in the blink of eye rather than starting all over again in another residency the way you'd have to in real life.

Ironically, they actually addressed that when Carter and Neela had to do that when they decided to switch.

Well, think of all the endoscopies, cardiac procedures, orthopedic procedures, etc we saw the ER docs do.  Remember when Carol was on the verge of delivering her first twin and Kerry actually insisted she be placed in an ER room and deliver there rather than take her directly to OB?  Yeah, sure, ER docs love to deliver high risk pregnancies all by themselves; especially if the patient is a coworker/friend.  Won't even get into Love's Labors Lost which was totally fictional in every way.  I recall an ER doc calling me to tell me that the squad was bringing in a pregnant woman who'd had a seizure.  He wanted to confirm the dose of magnesium sulfate and also to tell me that he was personally going to push her gurney through the ER and onto the elevator ASAP on arrival.  And he did.

I recall the time Mark had the patient who'd swallowed a bunch of medical instruments and Kerry swooped in and did an endoscopy to remove them from the patient's stomach.  In real life, no ER doc would want to touch that with a 10 foot pole.  One slip and an instrument perforates the patient's esophagus and the lawsuit is inevitable.  First question from the plaintiff's attorney:  'Doctor why did you do this procedure when the teaching hospital where you work has dozens of gastroenterologists on staff and a fully outfitted endoscopy suite?  The patient was stable, this was a challenging case, why didn't you call in an expert?'  

[Cloud9Shopper]

My mom worked in an ER before ER was actually on, and she said she always got a kick of how the show’s doctors were also OBs, cardiologists, and everything else. 

She was also watching the episode with me where Sam’s kid was in the car accident and she asked oh is that her kid? She’d never be allowed to work on him. 

[Dr.OO7]

22 hours ago, Notabug said:

Mark had the patient who'd swallowed a bunch of medical instruments and Kerry swooped in and did an endoscopy to remove them from the patient's stomach.  In real life, no ER doc would want to touch that with a 10 foot pole. 

Speaking of Mark, didn't he essentially do brain surgery once?

And speaking of Kerry, that would be example #876 of her hypocrisy, as I'm sure she swooped in and tried to STOP Susan from doing an endoscopy (though that was more about her being controlling and nitpicking than worrying about a lawsuit).

 

[Heathen]

43 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Speaking of Mark, didn't he essentially do brain surgery once?

And speaking of Kerry, that would be example #876 of her hypocrisy, as I'm sure she swooped in and tried to STOP Susan from doing an endoscopy (though that was more about her being controlling and nitpicking than worrying about a lawsuit).

 

He did indeed. 

ER's treatment of seizure patients always bugged me (I have epilepsy). Not every person who has a seizure gets or should get Ativan, stat! Not every seizure is a medical emergency. I think the show's unrealistic portrayal of a common medical condition did a tremendous disservice to people who actually have it. 

Anybody remember the season 2 episode in which the sprinklers in OB went crazy and six laboring women (including a thirteen-year-old who would presumably be classified as higher risk) were sent to the ER? That was another big ol' storyline of crap. Why send them to the ER instead of a regular med-surg ward? Were the doctors and nurses who would have treated them in OB now fixing the sprinklers instead? 

[Dr.OO7]

23 minutes ago, Heathen said:

Anybody remember the season 2 episode in which the sprinklers in OB went crazy and six laboring women (including a thirteen-year-old who would presumably be classified as higher risk) were sent to the ER? That was another big ol' storyline of crap. Why send them to the ER instead of a regular med-surg ward? Were the doctors and nurses who would have treated them in OB now fixing the sprinklers instead? 

I completely forgot about that episode. I actually liked that one very much, although you've now pointed out the implausibility of it. 

[Mrsmaul2021]

45 minutes ago, Heathen said:

 

Anybody remember the season 2 episode in which the sprinklers in OB went crazy and six laboring women (including a thirteen-year-old who would presumably be classified as higher risk) were sent to the ER? That was another big ol' storyline of crap. Why send them to the ER instead of a regular med-surg ward? Were the doctors and nurses who would have treated them in OB now fixing the sprinklers instead? 

 

 

very first ER episode I watched back in 1996.  I honestly  never thought anything about this but yeah, this was absurd. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

44 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I completely forgot about that episode. I actually liked that one very much, although you've now pointed out the implausibility of it. 

That’s one of my favorite and more underrated episodes of the series. 

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I completely forgot about that episode. I actually liked that one very much, although you've now pointed out the implausibility of it. 

I liked the episode too ("I swear, if you don't have a vasectomy, you're having the next one!"), but it was entertaining implausibility. 

The thirteen-year-old having a baby, who swore her mother would help her, just broke my heart. I knew girls like that growing up. They didn't get any help from their mothers and most of them were doomed to a lifetime of poverty. 

[Notabug]

6 hours ago, Heathen said:

I liked the episode too ("I swear, if you don't have a vasectomy, you're having the next one!"), but it was entertaining implausibility. 

The thirteen-year-old having a baby, who swore her mother would help her, just broke my heart. I knew girls like that growing up. They didn't get any help from their mothers and most of them were doomed to a lifetime of poverty. 

Many 13 year olds who get pregnant haven't had very good mothering in the first place; which makes it even more ironic that they often count on their less than adequate moms to help them raise their new baby.  And, yeah, every single one of them is absolutely certain that she and the baby are going to have terrific lives; she'll have a great well-paying job, they'll have a beautiful home, the kid will attend great schools and life will be perfect  It's even sadder in real life.

And, yes, in real life, there are far better options for labor and delivery patients than to transfer them to the ER to deliver.  Those in early labor would probably be transferred to other hospitals and the rest transferred either to an antepartum unit or maybe the holding area of the OR.  Tremendous risk for infection in the ER would put it low on the list.  And, of course, the nurses, aides, and practitioners scheduled to work that day would be providing care to those patients no matter where they landed.  ER docs cannot read fetal monitors, nor can nurses.  I would expect that virtually none of them would feel comfortable doing a vaginal exam to assess the cervix of a laboring women anymore than an OB would want to run a code on a trauma patient.

The eppy was called Baby Shower if anyone wants to find it.

[Mrsmaul2021]

12 hours ago, Notabug said:

Many 13 year olds who get pregnant haven't had very good mothering in the first place; which makes it even more ironic that they often count on their less than adequate moms to help them raise their new baby.  And, yeah, every single one of them is absolutely certain that she and the baby are going to have terrific lives; she'll have a great well-paying job, they'll have a beautiful home, the kid will attend great schools and life will be perfect  It's even sadder in real life.

And, yes, in real life, there are far better options for labor and delivery patients than to transfer them to the ER to deliver.  Those in early labor would probably be transferred to other hospitals and the rest transferred either to an antepartum unit or maybe the holding area of the OR.  Tremendous risk for infection in the ER would put it low on the list.  And, of course, the nurses, aides, and practitioners scheduled to work that day would be providing care to those patients no matter where they landed.  ER docs cannot read fetal monitors, nor can nurses.  I would expect that virtually none of them would feel comfortable doing a vaginal exam to assess the cervix of a laboring women anymore than an OB would want to run a code on a trauma patient.

The eppy was called Baby Shower if anyone wants to find it.

 

 

@Heathen and @Notabug  OMG do you two  remember the 13 year old's mother in the episode? A complete dingbat who looked like she does more drinking and partying than mothering. Just no shame, guilt or regret that her 13 year old child had to endure a labor without her. 

Edited January 18 by Mrsmaul2021

[Kel Varnsen]

21 hours ago, Heathen said:

Anybody remember the season 2 episode in which the sprinklers in OB went crazy and six laboring women (including a thirteen-year-old who would presumably be classified as higher risk) were sent to the ER? That was another big ol' storyline of crap. Why send them to the ER instead of a regular med-surg ward? Were the doctors and nurses who would have treated them in OB now fixing the sprinklers instead? 

I am not a doctor but I am an engineer who has done some sprinkler system design, and sprinklers "going crazy" always annoys me. If you look at a fire sprinkler there will actually be some little device that sets it off, usually when it gets too hot (like if there is a fire directly below it). And from what I can remember the piping for sprinkler systems is usually designed based on like 10-15 going off at once. So if a huge area of sprinklers were activated at once there wouldn't be enough of a water supply for all of them to spray like they do on tv.

[Dr.OO7]

On 1/18/2024 at 10:37 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

I am not a doctor but I am an engineer who has done some sprinkler system design, and sprinklers "going crazy" always annoys me. If you look at a fire sprinkler there will actually be some little device that sets it off, usually when it gets too hot (like if there is a fire directly below it). And from what I can remember the piping for sprinkler systems is usually designed based on like 10-15 going off at once. So if a huge area of sprinklers were activated at once there wouldn't be enough of a water supply for all of them to spray like they do on tv.

And here I was thinking it was just us doctors who rolled their eyes at TV/movies ridiculously unrealistic depiction of their profession.

(Yes, I know there are plenty others--cops, anyone?--but I didn't know engineers did too! 😄)

Speaking of that "Baby Shower" episode, I suddenly recall something else that pissed me off--Coburn being made out to be a bitch because she's clearly leery of Mark's inability to handle a delivery--like, duh. Then when it's revealed that the baby is breech, she instantly declares that SHE will take over, and Mark basically ignores her and refuses to move!

Um. . .NO.

[Cloud9Shopper]

43 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Speaking of that "Baby Shower" episode, I suddenly recall something else that pissed me off--Coburn being made out to be a bitch because she's clearly leery of Mark's inability to handle a delivery--like, duh. Then when it's revealed that the baby is breech, she instantly declares that SHE will take over, and Mark basically ignores her and refuses to move!

Um. . .NO.

I was always curious what the conflict was between the ER and OB pre-Love’s Labor Lost since Susan called Coburn a bitch onscreen in that episode for telling Mark to induce Jodi’s labor if he could handle it. Of course, since whatever was wrong before that episode aired happened offscreen we’ll never know, but it’s interesting to explore the possibilities. My guess is either some other botched delivery occurred in the ER prior to canon or even within S1 prior to LLL, or just a plain old personality conflict. 

Like I said, I love Baby Shower and Mark is one of my favorite characters but even I had a laugh when Coburn shoved him out of the way in that episode. 

There was also a scene in S8 where Kerry did a C-section in an ambulance in the rain storm and when she got to the hospital, Romano said Coburn had been on the phone screaming her head off. Then in S10, Abby argues with Coburn on a case and is reminded that she’s a medical student, not to mention Abby basically attempts to take over her own labor and argue about everything in S13.

It just seemed like the ER staff did not respect OB’s opinion at all, ever. 

Edited January 19 by Cloud9Shopper

[Dr.OO7]

32 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

was always curious what the conflict was between the ER and OB pre-Love’s Labor Lost since Susan called Coburn a bitch onscreen in that episode

I think it was just to setup the "ER is right, the other department is wrong" scenario.

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, Dr.OO7 said:

I think it was just to setup the "ER is right, the other department is wrong" scenario.

That was a common scenario.  Remember second year ER resident Susan arguing with Kayson over the appropriate management of a cardiac patient?  In real life, not only would a second year resident (even one in internal medicine) never argue with an attending; he or she would never, ever consider themselves qualified to overrule an attending who not only completed 3 years of internal medicine residency, but 2 years of cardiology fellowship as well as decades of cardiology practice.  There is no way Susan could've possible known more about the management of that case than Kayson.  She asked him about the options, he told her what he thought; she would've learned something about cardiology and that would've been that.

Considering the umpteen mistakes Mark made in managing Jody including ignoring her hypertension and proteinuria and failing to make the diagnosis of severe pre eclampsia, heading to eclampsia within minutes;  I don't blame Coburn for wondering if Mark was able to handle the case.  His actions proved over and over again that he wasn't.

As for Mark getting his panties in a twist because Coburn wondered if he knew how to manage induction of labor or thought he maybe needed help delivering a vaginal breech; that was pure fiction.  In real life, no ER doc knows anything about that stuff and would be more than happy to hand the case over.  As a resident, doing obstetrics, I delivered maybe 3 vaginal breeches in 4 years, and would've been screaming for someone to help.  Even today, experienced OB's are thrilled to have experienced help for difficult cases. ER docs would be no different.  As for Mark claiming to have already delivered 200 kids at that point, when did that happen?  We saw Susan, Carter, Archie, Chen and a bunch of others doing ER residencies and, yet, none of them did that many deliveries.  200 deliveries in a 3 year residency is more than one baby a week.  Say what?  Most ER docs onlly do deliveries that are in progress and inevitable at the moment the patient arrives.  Playing 'catch' to a kid that is falling out is not the same as doing a delivery.  And if an ER resident did 10 of those during their training, that would be a lot.  They stand by and wait for the OB resident to come downstairs and do the honors.  I recall at least half a dozen times when I waa called to the ER as a resident and arrived to find an ER doc standing with his gloved hand on the kid's head playing human stop sign; only to immediately step away and let me catch bare-handed in my street clothes.

Edited January 19 by Notabug

[Bastet]

Speaking of Kayson, I've been watching a bit of season one lately, including an episode where he confronts Susan over the death of a patient, and the actor was so over the top in his delivery of the accusation I half expected him to suddenly sprout a mustache so he could twirl it.  Dial it back, dude.

As an aside, "Dial it back, dude" is also what I always think about Kathleen Wilhoite, so Chloe is absolutely unbearable.

Edited January 19 by Bastet

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

As an aside, "Dial it back, dude" is also what I always think about Kathleen Wilhoite, so Chloe is absolutely unbearable.

Susan had the patience of a saint with Chloe.  I don't know how she could possibly maintain a relationship with that human dumpster fire.  I would have cut her off entirely when she stole Susan's tv and left the apartment in shambles.  And that doesn't even get into that she abandoned her newborn and expected Susan to clean up after her path of destruction.   

[CrazyInAlabama]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

Susan had the patience of a saint with Chloe.  I don't know how she could possibly maintain a relationship with that human dumpster fire.  I would have cut her off entirely when she stole Susan's tv and left the apartment in shambles.  And that doesn't even get into that she abandoned her newborn and expected Susan to clean up after her path of destruction.   

I loathed Chloe, and how Susan's mother kept objecting to baby Suzie being adopted out, but then did nothing to help.  What was Susan supposed to do, quit her residency to become full time Mommy to her flaky sister's kid?   

The episode seasons later where Suzie was missing in NYC, and Chloe was back on drugs, and then took Suzie and disappeared was bizarre.   That was nothing but a meaningless cross over episode to help save the other show.  

[Cloud9Shopper]

I always appreciated that Susan never let her family drama spill over into her job and generally was an adult even in the face of everything she had to deal with. It was part of why the earlier seasons of ER were so much better. Everyone had their issues but could still largely be professional at work and no one’s problems took up too much screentime or dragged the show down. 

The crossover episode was pointless. I skipped it this time around. I can’t imagine what the writers were thinking that they thought we needed more of Chloe.

[Bastet]

Still watching season one, and I like the fun stuff they used to get up to, like putting a sleeping Carter's leg in a cast and then paging him and the caper stealing the crash carts back from Cardiology, rather than the later shit with tanks and helicopters.

Edited January 20 by Bastet

[Cloud9Shopper]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

Still watching season one, and I like the fun stuff they used to get up to, like putting a sleeping Carter's leg in a cast and then paging him and the caper with re-stealing the stolen crash carts from Cardiology, rather than the later shit with tanks and helicopters.

And chimps, and people who let their relatives fall into open graves, and interns who make crude and inappropriate sex jokes at work while no one reins it in. I feel like the later seasons were like a satire of themselves.

I was just thinking that I may simply go to S15 rather than dig through episode summaries of S9-14 and find the episodes that are tolerable enough for me to watch. On the Beach really feels like a good stopping point, and I don’t know that many of my opinions are going to change with the show being over nearly 15 years. I figured if I do change my mind, then I can pick up DVDs if worst comes to worse and it disappears from streaming. 

[Bastet]

I'm ready to go back to the other things I'm watching, but I enjoyed revisiting season one (finished up this morning with Carol's non-wedding*).  When Pop premiered it in syndication, I had all three episodes on each day, but only watched one of them; the other two were background noise.  So a lot of stuff was effectively new to me.

Like the fact we learn three things about Carter's background: He has a sister who lives in Switzerland, his dad's name is Roland, and he had a brother Bobby who died of leukemia as a kid.  Of course, by the time we meet his family, only one of those things is true.

*Tag was right to leave her, but he was also an idiot to propose to her (instead of dump her after she confessed she'd cheated on him with Doug) in the first place, and then to let things drag on until the minute she was supposed to walk down the aisle.  So I love that when she says she's sure this will all hit her tomorrow, and Malik says just wait until she gets the bar bill, she responds:  No, that's going to Tag.

Speaking of Malik, it was sad watching these old episodes and remembering both Deezer D. and Vanessa Marquez (who played Wendy) died too young.  Especially the tragic way Marquez died (shot by cops during a welfare check [she suffered from numerous mental illnesses] gone every kind of wrong [which is why it shouldn't be cops doing them, but that's a discussion for another place]). 

Edited January 21 by Bastet

[Notabug]

13 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I'm ready to go back to the other things I'm watching, but I enjoyed revisiting season one (finished up this morning with Carol's non-wedding*).  When Pop premiered it in syndication, I had all three episodes on each day, but only watched one of them; the other two were background noise.  So a lot of stuff was effectively new to me.

Like the fact we learn three things about Carter's background: He has a sister who lives in Switzerland, his dad's name is Roland, and he had a brother Bobby who died of leukemia as a kid.  Of course, by the time we meet his family, only two of those things are true.

*Tag was right to leave her, but he was also an idiot to propose to her (instead of dump her after she confessed she'd cheated on him with Doug) in the first place, and then to let things drag on until the minute she was supposed to walk down the aisle.  So I love that when she says she's sure this will all hit her tomorrow, and Malik says just wait until she gets the bar bill, she responds:  No, that's going to Tag.

Speaking of Malik, it was sad watching these old episodes and remembering both Deezer D. and Vanessa Marquez (who played Wendy) died too young.  Especially the tragic way Marquez died (shot by cops during a welfare check [she suffered from numerous mental illnesses] gone every kind of wrong [which is why it shouldn't be cops doing them, but that's a discussion for another place]). 

Actually, only one of those things is true.  Carter's sister is never heard from again after the mention in Season 1.  Carter's father, called Roland in the first season, morphs into John 'Jack' Carter, Jr by the time we see Michael Gross in 2001.  Carter's brother Bobby, who died of leukemia is the only story that is consistent through the show's run.

[Bastet]

Just now, Notabug said:

Actually, only one of those things is true.

Which is what I meant, so I have no idea why I typed two (I guess thinking two were no longer true?).  I'll fix it.

[GiandujaPie]

I'm getting to the end of my Season 15 watch and just watched the episodes where Carter comes back and gets his kidney transplant and Doug and Carol were the organ facilitators. I find it funny that Doug asked about a few of the doctors who were there when he was, and he never asked about Carter who was getting the kidney. I enjoyed seeing Benton visit Carter and finding out that his life has moved on. That was the thing I always appreciated about ER, they never acted like once characters left the show that their lives got worse or that they remained stagnant. ER always showed that life continued to move on for the characters, even after they left County. 

As for Neela's exit, how boring and dull. Her relationship with Brenner was never compelling, and we are expected to believe she just suddenly decided to turn down Duke University to go to Baton Rouge to be with Ray? That's another relationship i never understood - when were they supposed to have fallen in love? What was so special about Neela anyway? She said Brenner never talked to her about anything meaningful, but did she tell him anything? She hasn't mentioned Gallant in years. And then I don't believe for one second that Frank would throw her an embarrassing good bye party when he never even liked her. 

Another thing I hate, only on tv do people work a shift right before they literally get on a plane to move! Who does that???? 

[Cloud9Shopper]

I always hated that Neela got a better farewell than Elizabeth did. I think if not for Neela leaving so close to the end of the series she probably would have just gotten a more “ok well bye” type of exit or just leaving only to never be mentioned again like Chen was.

I never saw anything special with her and Ray either. They should have just had Gallant live and let that relationship be. 

And I don’t see why they had to bring Abby back one more time. Just so we could hear her complain that she hates babysitting? 

[Bastet]

4 hours ago, GiandujaPie said:

Another thing I hate, only on tv do people work a shift right before they literally get on a plane to move! Who does that????

Similarly, Carter being late for his first day of the surgical sub-internship because his plane was delayed several hours by a storm.  That's why you fly back the day before, especially if you're due at work at 8:00! 

I wound up watching some season two, and at this point Carter's dad is still named Roland.  And the flowers from his grandparents (when he matched at County) were signed Nana and Poopie.  That one I can write off as being his maternal grandparents, but it's funny to watch the old episodes where they're just tossing out a few random tidbits about Carter's life after having seen the actual storylines with his family that came later.  Like that when he matched, he called his parents (who were out of town; at least them frequently being somewhere else is consistent).  They sent flowers, and so did his grandparents and I think someone else, which means his parents immediately got on the horn and spread the good news.  That's certainly not how they wound up writing John II and Eleanor.

Edited January 23 by Bastet

[Cloud9Shopper]

Also forgot to mention Carol hopping on a flight to Seattle immediately after quitting on a moment’s notice. The thing with the plane is the most 2000 thing ever. And Abby worked one attending shift before quitting basically on the spot and then drove right to Boston. 

 

[GiandujaPie]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Also forgot to mention Carol hopping on a flight to Seattle immediately after quitting on a moment’s notice. The thing with the plane is the most 2000 thing ever. And Abby worked one attending shift before quitting basically on the spot and then drove right to Boston. 

 

To be fair, I think Carol impulsively quit the day she did and then hopped on a plane. My issue is people knowing that they are leaving or moving and then working one last shift on their way to the airport. If I were moving, I'd put in my notice at work, then plan to move a few days after my last day. I wouldn't work my last shift and then just go straight to the airport like they made it seem Neela did. They do this on other shows too and it's stupid. Nobody does this in real life unless they have no other choice, and I don't believe for a second that Neela had to work right up to the minute of her departure. She could have worked her last shift, then gone home and spent the next week packing up her apartment and making arrangements for the move. Instead, she goes from the hospital directly to the airport so that Simon can run after her and declare how much he loves her. 🙄