All Episodes Talk: What's Up Doc?

[Cloud9Shopper]

Only had time for one episode tonight (8x7):

Awww, it’s Gallant’s first day! I love Gallant and think the show needed a character like him, especially as the series went further and further into misery. Him being ignored/brushed over reminded me of how Lucy was constantly dismissed on her first day.

I don’t get why Roger would have to sue for custody of Reece. Wouldn’t he already have some sort of default right as Carla’s husband? And if I remember correctly, neither Peter or Roger is the biological father anyway. (On a side note, if neither of them was the birth father as far as DNA goes, then who WAS Carla sleeping with and how busy was she? I guess we’ll never know.)

Susan is so childish about Carter being stabbed and his addiction. I don’t think the Susan of S1-3 would be making offhand, tone deaf jokes about wanting to see his scars and saying he got the Fentanyl addiction “out of his system.” Why is the writing for her so bad on her second time around? 

Abby continues to annoy with the Nicole situation. It’s kind of ironic that she’s bitching about Luka letting Nicole be in a trauma and yet she didn’t speak up or say she shouldn’t be doing things when Luka let her do things like run a trauma for the baby who was kidnapped (when the kidnapping was her fault to begin with), or allowed her to do some procedure (a chest tube, maybe; I don’t remember) that only doctors should do after she quit med school and went back to nursing.

I was actually surprised that JD/MD programs are a real-life thing. I work around the legal field but not in healthcare but I didn’t get how Carter’s patient could be doing both until I looked it up for myself. She does need to pick a path, because JD/MD sounds insane to me.

Elizabeth’s plot with Babcock. I don’t really care. 

Hey Mark? I think you’re a little late with parenting Rachel. Should’ve had rules before she got suspended. Whoops. Better luck next time. 

[Heathen]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I don’t get why Roger would have to sue for custody of Reece. Wouldn’t he already have some sort of default right as Carla’s husband? And if I remember correctly, neither Peter or Roger is the biological father anyway. (On a side note, if neither of them was the birth father as far as DNA goes, then who WAS Carla sleeping with and how busy was she? I guess we’ll never know.)

Susan is so childish about Carter being stabbed and his addiction. I don’t think the Susan of S1-3 would be making offhand, tone deaf jokes about wanting to see his scars and saying he got the Fentanyl addiction “out of his system.” Why is the writing for her so bad on her second time around?  

Carla didn't meet Roger until after Reece had been born. He was not named on Reece's birth certificate, and as Carla's husband and Reece's stepfather, had absolutely no default right to Reece. 

As Peter's lawyer explained at one point, since Carla named Peter as Reece's father, she could not have contested his parenthood if she had lived. Roger could and did because neither he nor Peter was Reece's biological father, and thus they were on equal ground as far as custody was concerned. 

I hated and still hate that storyline. I know the writers needed a way to get rid of the troublesome Lisa Nicole Carson, but did they really have to engage in such nasty tropes about Black people, and Black women in particular? And why did the storyline have to have such a ludicrous ending, with Peter telling a big fat lie in court and miraculously getting sole custody of Reece? It's so bad, it rivals most of Abby's idiotic storylines for stupidity. 

As far as your question about why Susan's storylines were so bad the second time around, I'd like to know. I can only guess that it was because the writers just sucked by then, or because the writers needed to fill in the gap before St. Abby came along and ruined saved the day. 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Heathen
Added a few words

[WendyCR72]

5 minutes ago, Heathen said:

As far as your question about why Susan's storylines were so bad the second time around, I'd like to know. I can only guess that it was because the writers just sucked by then, or because the writers needed to fill in the gap before St. Abby came along and ruined saved the day.

As a fan of Susan, I HATED the writing for her for the bulk of Round 2, and I think the above theory is the exact reason why the character was shit upon.

At least her appearance in S15 seemed more in line with her earlier self. Or maybe there just wasn't time to pile on more damage.

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Wouldn’t he already have some sort of default right as Carla’s husband?

Not at all; biological parents have default rights they can lose, if the best interests of the child mean biological reunification is inappropriate, but non-bio parents never have default rights unless the kid is born during the marriage, and Reese already existed when Carla married Roger. 

But the best interests of the child standard means when you have two non-biological fathers fighting it out, the dad who'd parented the kid the bulk of the time (Roger) is going to have a leg up and the other dad (Peter) will need to make a compelling case for something other than the logical split.  I think the show gave Peter custody and Roger visitation, when it would be the opposite - or at least joint custody - of what most courts would decide.

[Cloud9Shopper]

6 hours ago, Heathen said:

As far as your question about why Susan's storylines were so bad the second time around, I'd like to know. I can only guess that it was because the writers just sucked by then, or because the writers needed to fill in the gap before St. Abby came along and ruined saved the day. 

Accidentally deleted it from my quote, but the show didn’t do custody storylines well either, outside of maybe Mark’s way back in S1 and 2 at least seeming somewhat realistic. Kerry’s battle with Sandy’s family was also rushed and poorly written, then swept under the rug pretty quick with virtually no fanfare in S11.

I think the “poor Abby” trope and the overfocus on her miserable life is a big part of what killed this show. Who made the decision to focus on a character who is never happy, makes destructive decisions all the time, and only gets what she wants in life by essentially sheer luck without really ever having to work for it? Sometimes I wish she had bled out in Bloodline and died, but then we would have had to put up with Luka grieving the loss of his “true love” and being a brooding single father and I can’t imagine how insufferable that would have been. Joe wouldn’t have to tolerate his mother though so…

 

[Notabug]

7 hours ago, Bastet said:

Not at all; biological parents have default rights they can lose, if the best interests of the child mean biological reunification is inappropriate, but non-bio parents never have default rights unless the kid is born during the marriage, and Reese already existed when Carla married Roger. 

But the best interests of the child standard means when you have two non-biological fathers fighting it out, the dad who'd parented the kid the bulk of the time (Roger) is going to have a leg up and the other dad (Peter) will need to make a compelling case for something other than the logical split.  I think the show gave Peter custody and Roger visitation, when it would be the opposite - or at least joint custody - of what most courts would decide.

There was also the ridiculous notion that Peter, an attending surgeon making a very comfortable 6 figure income at that point; wouldn't be able to take care of Reese because he worked long hours sometimes.  In fact, Peter's profession gave him a degree of economic privilege and stability that is exactly what courts like to see from a custodial parent.  Peter had the means to provide top notch child care for Reese when he was working, to the point of being able to afford a live-in nanny if needed.

I was also pissed when the paternity story came up because it was completely contradictory to the original storyline where Carla was smart, capable and never wavered when telling Peter that he was Reece' father.  It was so unfortunate that Lisa Nicole Carson's mental health problems prevented her from continuing in the role of Carla; this is one occasion where re-casting would've been preferable, IMO.  Heck, we had 2 Rogers, Carol had 2 moms; why not 2 Carlas?

I also agree that at least part of the reason the writing for Susan was such a disaster when she returned was because, in virtually every way, Susan was a far more likable character and better physician than Abby in her first incarnation.  Couldn't let Susan outshine the Abster; so the writers changed her personality to make her a shadow of her former self.  

Edited November 22, 2023 by Notabug

[GiandujaPie]

Peter may not have been the biological father of Reese, but he was on the birth certificate, always held out Reese as his own child, and provided for him financially and emotionally. There really would be no reason for him to lose to Roger in a custody battle, other than to create drama for TV. If Peter wanted to act in the best interest of the child, he would continue to let Reese have visitation with Roger and encourage a relationship, but legally, Peter would have custody of Reese. The idea that because he worked long hours as a surgeon and that would be disqualifying is insulting to all working parents. 

I'm currently watching season 13 on my DVD and it's pretty bad. I know everybody hates Abby here, but I really can't stand Neela. Just watched the last few episodes where clearly Ray and Gates are having pissing matches over Neela and the Christmas episode where we start seeing that Dubenko has feelings for her. Ridiculous. And of course, even those homeless kids somehow think she's the best thing since sliced bread. Ugh. 

 

[Cloud9Shopper]

S13 is so forgettable I can’t even think of one episode I’d be willing to watch again, except maybe the one where Kerry leaves. (And popping the champagne when Abby gets a hysterectomy and thankfully can’t make anymore babies.) 

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, GiandujaPie said:

I know everybody hates Abby here

Nope, not everbody.  Some of the Abby fans quit posting here, but there were several during the first Pop syndication run. 

I'm pretty neutral on her; I certainly don't hate her, or even dislike her at all, but she's not memorable to me like Elizabeth, Kerry, Carter, or Original Recipe Susan (my favorite characters) are.  She's just ... fine.  I probably liked her more before we kept getting so much screen time taken up by her family.  I like Sally Field as much as the next person, but ENOUGH.  This show got a lot of heavy hitters to play the characters' moms, but when Mary McDonnell, Piper Laurie, Beah Richards, Judy Parfitt, etc. appeared, they didn't dominate the show.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I think before the Abby and her family plot came along, the writers knew how to handle writing for an ensemble drama. Even other family/personal life storylines like Susan with Chloe, Mark and Jen’s divorce, and Jeanie’s HIV or Mark’s assault didn’t take over the show. There were still other interesting plots going on and screen time for other characters. 

Part of the reason I so strongly dislike Abby is because she’s the type of person I’d hate if she were real. She’s not good to other people, she had a baby even though she shouldn’t have, and somehow life just works out for her no matter how badly she messes up. She escapes consequences for her actions 98% of the time. I can’t stand that in reality. So I don’t like that the writers chose to incessantly focus on her life and made her so perfect, including her being the best resident, an amazing mother and wife, and everyone’s BFF. It felt hard for me to believe that everyone loved her and nobody got fed up with her or friend dumped her, or that Luka didn’t want a divorce after she could have killed or further injured Joe during her relapse. 

[wknt3]

20 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I was actually surprised that JD/MD programs are a real-life thing. I work around the legal field but not in healthcare but I didn’t get how Carter’s patient could be doing both until I looked it up for myself. She does need to pick a path, because JD/MD sounds insane to me.

I've met 4 JD/MD's in my life. 3 of them started out as MDs and later went back to law school (2 were forensic psychiatrists and 1 was working in hospital admin and basically got so fed up dealing with insurance and malpractice lawyers she decided to get the piece of paper she needed to tell them to piss off. I only know one person who did it as a combined program to try to achieve some lofty goal and they are one of the most insufferable, bat crap crazy people I have ever met in my life. To be fair the combination of the pressure to succeed, the stress of the pace of the program and the fact they are in their 30s with a great job, but $425,000 in student loan debt would probably push anyone over the edge...

[Notabug]

57 minutes ago, wknt3 said:

I've met 4 JD/MD's in my life. 3 of them started out as MDs and later went back to law school (2 were forensic psychiatrists and 1 was working in hospital admin and basically got so fed up dealing with insurance and malpractice lawyers she decided to get the piece of paper she needed to tell them to piss off. I only know one person who did it as a combined program to try to achieve some lofty goal and they are one of the most insufferable, bat crap crazy people I have ever met in my life. To be fair the combination of the pressure to succeed, the stress of the pace of the program and the fact they are in their 30s with a great job, but $425,000 in student loan debt would probably push anyone over the edge...

Having gotten an MD, I cannot imagine trying to combine med school with law school.  I have also known several JD/MD's;  all of them started out in one field, only to discover an interest in the other area and go back to school for that.  I went to med school with a guy who had a law degree, had practiced for a decade or so, not in any medically adjacent area and decided he wanted to be a doctor.  I haven't kept in touch, but he really didn't want to combine medicine and the law; he wanted to completely switch to medicine and leave law behind.  The other two were practicing physicians who decided to do law school.  One was an OB/GYN who was kind of a free spirit/hippie.  He decided to go to law school because he was interested and wanted to learn more about it.  He graduated, passed the bar and was licensed, but continued to practice OB/GYN full time.  He kept his law license current; used his knowledge to read contracts before signing and wrote wills for some nurses and docs who asked.  The other guy was a practicing physician who already had an administrative position in the hospital system where he worked and went to law school to use it in hospital administration.  He was in upper management with a large hospital system last I heard.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Notabug

[Cloud9Shopper]

Happy Thanksgiving my ER fan friends! Since Transplant wasn’t on tonight I decided to pick up two episodes of ER: Partly Cloudy, Chance of Rain (8x8) and Quo Vadis (8x9). Let’s begin: 

Oh no, Cleo’s leaving! Anyway. I can’t recall another quite useless character until we introduce Gates and Brenner (or Ray, to a lesser extent) down the road. I won’t miss her complete lack of personality and emotion. Moving on.

Thank God this Nicole and Luka plotline is ending so Abby can go back to minding her own business. (I know she won’t, though, and will find someone else’s life to meddle in.) I could have sworn Nicole was really pregnant but ended up having an abortion. Maybe I’m thinking of a different storyline or mixing her up with that overworked mother from S6 that Abby talked into having an abortion. I am surprised Abby didn’t just tell Luka that Nicole said her father had died. She was keeping track of everything else Nicole ever said and did, after all. 

The rainstorm scene where Kerry does the C-section seemed over the top at times, but I ended up appreciating how intense it was. Although to be honest, I would have loved for Coburn to come onscreen and ream Kerry a new one for doing the section in the field. I’d be pretty fed up too that the ER docs do not seem to understand that they are not OBs. And also…how was that baby almost blue when they took him out but completely clean by the time they got him to the hospital?

I do think Kerry’s best relationship is with Sandy once they work out the initial tension and awkwardness of when they first meet and Kerry isn’t ready to come out, and I wish they had let Sandy live. 

Watching Peter’s custody hearing. I really don’t understand why it’s relevant how long a surgery takes for the gunshot wound to the chest. That doesn’t affect Peter’s ability to be a good father. The whole thing just is nonsense. He has a job and can provide for Reece; it’s not as if he’s a deadbeat father who was divorced and never gave Carla a dollar of child support. That’s all that should matter. I worked in a law firm that did family law, and I can’t recall it ever being a bad thing or a point of contention that our client had a job lol. The custody issues were for other reasons. 

The next episode on my list is Benton’s last one. I’ll have final thoughts on his character then. 

[Notabug]

11 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Happy Thanksgiving my ER fan friends! Since Transplant wasn’t on tonight I decided to pick up two episodes of ER: Partly Cloudy, Chance of Rain (8x8) and Quo Vadis (8x9). Let’s begin: 

Oh no, Cleo’s leaving! Anyway. I can’t recall another quite useless character until we introduce Gates and Brenner (or Ray, to a lesser extent) down the road. I won’t miss her complete lack of personality and emotion. Moving on.

Thank God this Nicole and Luka plotline is ending so Abby can go back to minding her own business. (I know she won’t, though, and will find someone else’s life to meddle in.) I could have sworn Nicole was really pregnant but ended up having an abortion. Maybe I’m thinking of a different storyline or mixing her up with that overworked mother from S6 that Abby talked into having an abortion. I am surprised Abby didn’t just tell Luka that Nicole said her father had died. She was keeping track of everything else Nicole ever said and did, after all. 

The rainstorm scene where Kerry does the C-section seemed over the top at times, but I ended up appreciating how intense it was. Although to be honest, I would have loved for Coburn to come onscreen and ream Kerry a new one for doing the section in the field. I’d be pretty fed up too that the ER docs do not seem to understand that they are not OBs. And also…how was that baby almost blue when they took him out but completely clean by the time they got him to the hospital?

I do think Kerry’s best relationship is with Sandy once they work out the initial tension and awkwardness of when they first meet and Kerry isn’t ready to come out, and I wish they had let Sandy live. 

Watching Peter’s custody hearing. I really don’t understand why it’s relevant how long a surgery takes for the gunshot wound to the chest. That doesn’t affect Peter’s ability to be a good father. The whole thing just is nonsense. He has a job and can provide for Reece; it’s not as if he’s a deadbeat father who was divorced and never gave Carla a dollar of child support. That’s all that should matter. I worked in a law firm that did family law, and I can’t recall it ever being a bad thing or a point of contention that our client had a job lol. The custody issues were for other reasons. 

The next episode on my list is Benton’s last one. I’ll have final thoughts on his character then. 

Don't get me started on Kerry doing the cesarean in the ambulance.  Medically, it was totally ridiculous. Aside from the fact that Kerry would not have SEEN a cesarean done since med school a decade earlier (remember Susan trying to recall what it is she heard about 'the bladder flap' in med school?  THAT was realistic), she wouldn't have had to proper instruments available in the ambulance.  She also gave the lady spinal anesthesia, which aside from the fact that she wouldn't have any idea what meds or doses to use, there wouldn't be any spinal needles for her to use anyway.  I could go on, but, suffice to say, the patient would've bled to death, so the rest doesn't matter. In real life, ER docs treat pregnant women and labor like they're a hot potato, they hand them off to the OB people as quickly as they can.  I was once on call and a pregnant patient in labor came in by squad, nearly ready to go.  To get her upstairs ASAP, the ER doc didn't even wait for transport, he pushed the bed onto the elevator and took her to L&D himself.  THAT is how much ER docs don't want anything to do with chlldbirth.

I thought Kerry and Sandy could've been a good long term couple/family, too, although I am not sure why Kerry stayed after Sandy publicly outed her in the ER.  I would think that would've been the end of the relationship.  I guess TPTB were starting to pinch pennies, but Sandy was never a major character; they could've easily had Kerry mention her every now and then without showing her and it would've been fine.  I suppose it was also to set up Kerry's custody storyline which was also stupid.

Peter was a loving parent who spent plenty of time with Reese before Carla died, there's no reason for anyone to think he'd suddenly ghost him when she was gone.  And, yes, judges generally look pretty favorably upon parents who are stable, well educated, have strong ties to the community and an income that will allow the child be be well cared for.  Most judges probably live in a neighborhood with docs and socialize with them at the country club or whatever. No way the judge thinks Peter's career is a negative.  Of course, ER made it look like Peter and Elizabeth were the only surgeons working full time when, a big city hospital like that would actually have maybe 20 of them on staff and they'd all be sharing call. Peter having to work a 24 hour shift a couple times a month is hardly going to interfere with Reese' care.

Edited November 24, 2023 by Notabug

[Heathen]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:49 AM, Notabug said:

Don't get me started on Kerry doing the cesarean in the ambulance.  Medically, it was totally ridiculous. Aside from the fact that Kerry would not have SEEN a cesarean done since med school a decade earlier (remember Susan trying to recall what it is she heard about 'the bladder flap' in med school?  THAT was realistic), she wouldn't have had to proper instruments available in the ambulance.  She also gave the lady spinal anesthesia, which aside from the fact that she wouldn't have any idea what meds or doses to use, there wouldn't be any spinal needles for her to use anyway.  I could go on, but, suffice to say, the patient would've bled to death, so the rest doesn't matter. In real life, ER docs treat pregnant women and labor like they're a hot potato, they hand them off to the OB people as quickly as they can.  I was once on call and a pregnant patient in labor came in by squad, nearly ready to go.  To get her upstairs ASAP, the ER doc didn't even wait for transport, he pushed the bed onto the elevator and took her to L&D himself.  THAT is how much ER docs don't want anything to do with chlldbirth.

I thought Kerry and Sandy could've been a good long term couple/family, too, although I am not sure why Kerry stayed after Sandy publicly outed her in the ER.  I would think that would've been the end of the relationship.  I guess TPTB were starting to pinch pennies, but Sandy was never a major character; they could've easily had Kerry mention her every now and then without showing her and it would've been fine.  I suppose it was also to set up Kerry's custody storyline which was also stupid.

Peter was a loving parent who spent plenty of time with Reese before Carla died, there's no reason for anyone to think he'd suddenly ghost him when she was gone.  And, yes, judges generally look pretty favorably upon parents who are stable, well educated, have strong ties to the community and an income that will allow the child be be well cared for.  Most judges probably live in a neighborhood with docs and socialize with them at the country club or whatever. No way the judge thinks Peter's career is a negative.  Of course, ER made it look like Peter and Elizabeth were the only surgeons working full time when, a big city hospital like that would actually have maybe 20 of them on staff and they'd all be sharing call. Peter having to work a 24 hour shift a couple times a month is hardly going to interfere with Reese' care.

The whole ER schtick about doctors and nurses was that ONLY the main, featured characters cared about their patients, so they worked in a crappy hospital for crappy pay. All other medical professionals were only in it for the money, dag nab it, and they'd skip out on their patients at the first opportunity. With that plot line, of course Peter would have to sacrifice caring for Reece since he was the only surgeon there at any given time. Or the others were so blindingly incompetent that Peter (or Corday or Romano or Dubenko) would have to dash in and save the day, and the patient. (I'm surprised the writers didn't make Abby a surgeon to further her god complex -- it seems like an obvious choice.) 

It all was total nonsense, of course. But that was the storyline throughout the series' run. Remember the bit about how Carol, ER nurse manager extraordinaire, was so underpaid that she could only afford a falling-down house, with holes in the roof, under the El tracks? Or Mark, an attending physician, could only afford an apartment where things "scurried about in walls"? 

[txhorns79]

On 11/7/2023 at 11:23 PM, Cloud9Shopper said:

Susan and her hair are back in town too. I always liked Susan; she is one of the few mature adults on this show, and that’s refreshing, especially as ER enters its slow downward spiral. And unlike Abby she knows when she has to stop following her family around and doesn’t let her problems with Chloe interfere with her work and relationships. I am sad her second run is so wasted. 

Susan had the worst hair on her return.  It was not flattering and made her appear much older than she was.  She was my favorite character on the show.  How she didn't just murder Chloe after all she put Susan through, I have no idea.   

[Cloud9Shopper]

8 hours ago, Heathen said:

The whole ER schtick about doctors and nurses was that ONLY the main, featured characters cared about their patients, so they worked in a crappy hospital for crappy pay. All other medical professionals were only in it for the money, dag nab it, and they'd skip out on their patients at the first opportunity. With that plot line, of course Peter would have to sacrifice caring for Reece since he was the only surgeon there at any given time. Or the others were so blindingly incompetent that Peter (or Corday or Romano or Dubenko) would have to dash in and save the day, and the patient. (I'm surprised the writers didn't make Abby a surgeon to further her god complex -- it seems like an obvious choice.) 

It all was total nonsense, of course. But that was the storyline throughout the series' run. Remember the bit about how Carol, ER nurse manager extraordinaire, was so underpaid that she could only afford a falling-down house, with holes in the roof, under the El tracks? Or Mark, an attending physician, could only afford an apartment where things "scurried about in walls"? 

I’m surprised they didn’t make Abby an OB considering there’s more than occasion she acts like she knows more about OB cases than Coburn, who is an OB and runs the department. Like when she was so special and I guess the only OB professional available in the whole hospital she got called to the ER to help with the micropreemie in S7 and abandoned her patient who was in labor, then pouted and got defensive when Coburn came downstairs and rightfully reamed her. Or when she tried to run her own labor and argue about treatment plans that would save her baby’s life, throwing a tantrum all the way to the OR about how she just had to have everything she wanted. (If I were Coburn I would have handed her off to another doctor, as long as I wouldn’t lose my license or something.) You would think the writers of S13 would want to show us that Abby is SuperMommy and would do whatever it took to save her child instead of acting like she didn’t get the toy she wanted for Christmas when she had to take steroids.

Abby also acted like she was dirt poor and working 60 hours a week at Walmart to support Joe while Luka went to Croatia, as if he took all his money with him too or locked her out of his bank account, as if he wasn’t a senior attending who always had nice things even when he lived in a hotel or on a boat, and always dressed well. I know residents don’t make a lot but she and Luka were married. Then again, if they barely discussed the wedding and given that Abby had Joe on a whim based on a delusional fantasy of playing house with Luka, I wouldn’t be shocked if she knew nothing of his finances either. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Notabug]

3 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I’m surprised they didn’t make Abby an OB considering there’s more than occasion she acts like she knows more about OB cases than Coburn, who is an OB and runs the department. Like when she was so special and I guess the only OB professional available in the whole hospital she got called to the ER to help with the micropreemie in S7 and abandoned her patient who was in labor, then pouted and got defensive when Coburn came downstairs and rightfully reamed her. 

 

What really bugged me about that storyline was that Abby was an OB Nurse, she worked on the maternity floor full time.  And, yet, after the baby was born, Abby insisted that the patient and baby had to remain in the busy ER rather than be transferred to the postpartum unit/NICU.  Nurses working OB and neonatal ICU are a special bunch and they are absolute advocates for moms and babies.  That Abby claimed that the nurses upstairs would've been insensitive and rude to the family made me want to reach through the screen and smack her.  

On the contrary, nurses working in those areas are particularly sensitive to those situations, they've had training on how to handle mother and baby as well as the rest of the family.  I've worked on all sorts of L&D units over the past 40 years, from 50 bed low risk facilities to places that did 6000 deliveries a year.  In every single one, there were training and protocols for handling that situation and the parents would've been given a comfortable room to stay in with their child with one on one nursing care.  They would've been allowed to decide how much time they wanted with their child as well as decide on other visitors.  Nurses would've arranged for photos to be taken, made sure to get foot and handprints, called in clergy for a baptism or blessing.  Abby betrayed her colleagues the minute she claimed that an ER trauma room was the best place for that family.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I couldn’t stand how Abby told Malucci he could not have the room when a trauma was coming in. (A car accident I think but not that it matters.) Whatever you think of Malucci, and God knows I didn’t like him during this current watch, he was in the right to say they needed the room and be annoyed when Abby, a nurse, told him no. Carol and Kerry had a similar discussion in S3 when Carol set up an ER room for a woman who had lost her child, but IIRC Carol didn’t come off as super entitled and self-righteous when Kerry was trying to get the room. 

[Notabug]

16 minutes ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I couldn’t stand how Abby told Malucci he could not have the room when a trauma was coming in. (A car accident I think but not that it matters.) Whatever you think of Malucci, and God knows I didn’t like him during this current watch, he was in the right to say they needed the room and be annoyed when Abby, a nurse, told him no. Carol and Kerry had a similar discussion in S3 when Carol set up an ER room for a woman who had lost her child, but IIRC Carol didn’t come off as super entitled and self-righteous when Kerry was trying to get the room. 

And even Abby should've understood the concept of triage as a nurse. Triage happens on OB too.  Most ER's, even in large level I trauma centers, have a limited number of rooms designated for major trauma.  From what we saw, County had 2, which would've been typical of that era.  Even regular trauma patients who are brought into that room for assessment would be moved to other spaces if it was deemed they didn't need emergent trauma care.  Those rooms contain a lot of specialized, expensive equipment and it takes a while for housekeeping to 'turn over' the room once a patient is moved elsewhere.  County did not have the luxury of keeping a mother and child who did not need high level trauma care for the many hours it was occupied in that episode.  I believe the baby lived for 6 hours, not to mention the amount of time they were in the room prior to delivery nor the amount of time it took to get the mother ready for discharge after the baby died.  That is not a short time and other trauma patients, who might've benefited from being in a room with all the bells and whistles were denied it.  In addition, if a major trauma came in, there would be ER staff running in and out of the room with the parents and baby grabbing equipment and meds and such, not exactly a comforting, peaceful environment. Major trauma rooms have literally hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of medical equipment in them.  No hospital can afford to put that much stuff in every single exam room.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Notabug

[outsmartabullet]

lmao I read Carter's 'Dear Abby' letter for the first time. It's horrific. Is it canon though? 

[Cloud9Shopper]

36 minutes ago, outsmartabullet said:

lmao I read Carter's 'Dear Abby' letter for the first time. It's horrific. Is it canon though? 

I believe Abby may have read it in canon, albeit not out loud, and they didn’t show the content of the letter. It used to be on the NBC website back in the day. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Notabug]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I believe Abby may have read it in canon, albeit not out loud, and they didn’t show the content of the letter. It used to be on the NBC website back in the day. 

I'm pretty sure on the show itself, we only got a phrase or two before Abby trashed it.

[GiandujaPie]

Re: JD/MD's - Do you guys follow the Betty Broderick real-life saga? The husband she killed, Dan Broderick, had a JD/MD that he used to pursue a career in medical malpractice lawsuits. I think there are multiple uses for MDs who also pursue other advanced degrees. There are many who also have joint MD/MBAs as they ultimately want to pursue careers in hospital administration. 

Re: Peter and Cleo. Yes, I agree that her character was pretty much useless, as we never really got to know her. And there is no way that Peter's career as a surgeon would have put him at a disadvantage during the custody fight. There shouldn't have even been a custody fight, as Roger had no legal right to Reese. There was never any indication that Peter was a negligent or neglectful father, other than he worked long hours at times. But so do plenty of other parents. 

 

[RedbirdNelly]

On 11/14/2023 at 8:06 AM, Mr. Miner said:

I'm watching season 11 on POP and wondering why they didn't drop the helicopter on Dr. Morris? I hate that guy!

Morris starts out completely incompetent and then a miracle happens across a few seasons and he becomes a solid doctor. I wish the show had (a) not made him so awful to start with--was not credible to me he could be that bad and (b) showed an arc of how he got better. Instead it just goes from malpractice to the guy running things reasonably well with no explanation of how that happened.

[WendyCR72]

Carter's letter, I don't care if it WAS as bad as said. I mean, the chaos at his Gamma's funeral alone would certainly bring about negative feelings.

So...yeah.

[Cloud9Shopper]

1 hour ago, WendyCR72 said:

Carter's letter, I don't care if it WAS as bad as said. I mean, the chaos at his Gamma's funeral alone would certainly bring about negative feelings.

So...yeah.

It really personified why Abby does not belong in a relationship. She only thinks of herself and what she needs and wants to do and is oblivious to her partner’s wants and needs. She repeats herself again in S14 with Luka’s father; she moaned about that even before she picked up the bottle again. It was all about how hard she had it because she had to work and take care of a kid, as if it was some unheard of phenomenon in 2007. Sorry you had to grow up and take responsibility for the baby you chose to have, Abby. 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[txhorns79]

11 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

Morris starts out completely incompetent and then a miracle happens across a few seasons and he becomes a solid doctor. I wish the show had (a) not made him so awful to start with--was not credible to me he could be that bad and (b) showed an arc of how he got better. Instead it just goes from malpractice to the guy running things reasonably well with no explanation of how that happened.

Glenn Howerton and Scott Grimes both started on ER during the same episode.  My thought at the time was that Morris was originally meant as a recurring character whose incompetence would come to a head at some point, and he'd leave the show, while Howerton would eventually become a regular.  However, when Howerton left, (or more like his character just vanished with no explanation), the writers re-calibrated and they started writing Morris as a more competent physician who could plausibly stick around.

[Kel Varnsen]

19 hours ago, RedbirdNelly said:

Morris starts out completely incompetent and then a miracle happens across a few seasons and he becomes a solid doctor. I wish the show had (a) not made him so awful to start with--was not credible to me he could be that bad and (b) showed an arc of how he got better. Instead it just goes from malpractice to the guy running things reasonably well with no explanation of how that happened.

A long term storyline where it shows how Morris is better at hands on learning than classroom learning and slowly picks up things and is influenced by a variety of senior docs (Susan, Carter, Weaver and Luka) or even the nursing staff, The kind of thing where you can see their influences, would have been a great way to handle his character. Because I can totally buy that there are doctors who just learn a ton in their residency and become way better doctors. Unfortunately he got a bunch of stupid comic relief storylines so that a bunch of other characters could have sex with each other and we could get a bunch of other soap opera storylines.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I watched Benton’s last episode tonight and I am glad this custody storyline has reached an end. Although Benton should maybe consider himself lucky that he didn’t get charged with perjury and still won custody in the end. (Which I do think was a good decision.) 

The episode felt very Benton-like and appropriate for his send-off. Especially at the end when he sees Carter and just says “Carter what are you doing here?” He will never be my top favorite character but he can be B or C tier. I think he changed a lot for the better after Reece was born, and I’ll always love how much chemistry he had with Elizabeth. 

Good to see Cleo still does not change her facial expressions for anything. I know they stay together in canon, but I like to pretend they broke up amicably at some point and remained friends.

Kerry quotable to Luka: “Don’t be sorry, be punctual! This is a hospital,  not a department store!” 

Also: Romano’s line about how vascular surgery is like sex, messy but satisfying when it’s done right. And saying “Did I ever tell you you’re my hero?!” to Benton. 

Why did Abby feel the need to hang around OB and wait for Nicole to come out of recovery? Look I know she is not the only staff member to look at charts that aren’t her business but why does she care so much about this woman she supposedly can’t stand and knows is a liar? Just let her be! I wouldn’t blame Nicole if she went all Regina George (if Mean Girls had come out earlier) and wanted to know why Janis Ian, aka Abby, was so obsessed with her.

Speaking of Abby, I had forgotten how much Beyond Repair was about her and how awful she is in that episode. From deciding to put Sobriki in hard restraints without consent to do so when he wasn’t a danger to anyone at that point (what makes her think she can decide that as a nurse?), screaming at Susan and the caseworker (so being insubordinate to Susan), and making Carter’s trauma about herself. Seeing Sobriki again was a really haunting moment and I shouldn’t watch that episode before bed ever again but I wish they hadn’t made it all about Abby. They could have done it earlier in the episode and had Carter deal with his old trauma, or gotten reactions from Kerry, or talked about Lucy a bit. Abby was there that night but she’s not the real victim here.

I also couldn’t stand the way she acted when she saw Carter and Susan having fun in the lounge. They were talking and she kissed him for a minute. They were hardly making out and taking their clothes off. I don’t get why she thinks she is entitled to Carter or Luka at all times. Carter knew Susan before Abby was ever introduced; he has every right to have lunch with her and flirt if he wants to especially since he’s not in a relationship with Abby. And then she acts all pouty about her ex remarrying a woman with a child as if she was so happy in that marriage and was dying to have a big family with Richard (or anyone). That said, I don’t get why he had to tell her? It felt pointless. I don’t get her moaning over something she never really wanted to begin with, and am not fully convinced she wants when she does get knocked up later. Oh, and she’s drinking now. It’s hard to feel sorry for her. She doesn’t even look guilty or seem to care that she took the beer. Maybe that’s normal for an alcoholic who’s relapsing but you think she’d at least stop and consider what she’s doing. I wonder what she was thinking. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[Cliffw]

8 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Speaking of Abby, I had forgotten how much Beyond Repair was about her and how awful she is in that episode. From deciding to put Sobriki in hard restraints without consent to do so when he wasn’t a danger to anyone at that point (what makes her think she can decide that as a nurse?), screaming at Susan and the caseworker (so being insubordinate to Susan), and making Carter’s trauma about herself. Seeing Sobriki again was a really haunting moment and I shouldn’t watch that episode before bed ever again but I wish they hadn’t made it all about Abby. They could have done it earlier in the episode and had Carter deal with his old trauma, or gotten reactions from Kerry, or talked about Lucy a bit. Abby was there that night but she’s not the real victim here.

I also couldn’t stand the way she acted when she saw Carter and Susan having fun in the lounge. They were talking and she kissed him for a minute. They were hardly making out and taking their clothes off. I don’t get why she thinks she is entitled to Carter or Luka at all times. Carter knew Susan before Abby was ever introduced; he has every right to have lunch with her and flirt if he wants to especially since he’s not in a relationship with Abby.

The writers wanted to beat it over everyone's head that Abby was the better love interest for Carter. The way Sobriki's return was written, the writers wanted to make sure the viewers knew the Abby cared more about Carter than Susan (who was doing her job). Then Abby checks on Carter after he finally sees Sobriki while Susan doesn't check and is later hanging out with Malik out at a hockey game (though that was more to create tension between Weaver and Sandy about Weaver not being "out"). 

If I'm remembering correctly, I think Abby seeing Carter and Susan kiss was the only time that they interacted as a couple since getting together and the next time would be in that awful "Secrets and Lies" episode. 

I know that everyone said that Carter and Susan had 0 chemistry but I wonder if that was intentionally written that way so there's no chance of having fans ship them when the end game at the time appeared to be Carter/Abby. I thought they had something in season 1 but that was obviously never going anywhere. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Cliffw

[WendyCR72]

1 hour ago, Cliffw said:

I know that everyone said that Carter and Susan had 0 chemistry but I wonder if that was intentionally written that way so there's no chance of having fans ship them when the end game at the time appeared to be Carter/Abby. I thought they had something in season 1 but that was obviously never going anywhere.

This has always been my take. But I realize it's all about mileage varying, etc.

[Notabug]

3 hours ago, Cliffw said:

The writers wanted to beat it over everyone's head that Abby was the better love interest for Carter. The way Sobriki's return was written, the writers wanted to make sure the viewers knew the Abby cared more about Carter than Susan (who was doing her job). Then Abby checks on Carter after he finally sees Sobriki while Susan doesn't check and is later hanging out with Malik out at a hockey game (though that was more to create tension between Weaver and Sandy about Weaver not being "out"). 

If I'm remembering correctly, I think Abby seeing Carter and Susan kiss was the only time that they interacted as a couple since getting together and the next time would be in that awful "Secrets and Lies" episode. 

I know that everyone said that Carter and Susan had 0 chemistry but I wonder if that was intentionally written that way so there's no chance of having fans ship them when the end game at the time appeared to be Carter/Abby. I thought they had something in season 1 but that was obviously never going anywhere. 

I thought Carter and Susan had chemistry back when he was a med student making heart eyes at her and she seemed to really enjoy hanging out with him at  work.  I get why they couldn't get together at that point (only Abby is allowed to bang med students on rotation without consequences); but some of that surely could've been resurrected when she returned.

I also agree that the writers took special care to present Abby as the pinnacle of womanhood, every man's dream girl.  Unfortunately, they did it by writing Susan as a completely different character when she came back.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Notabug

[txhorns79]

1 hour ago, Notabug said:

 

I also agree that the writers took special care to present Abby as the pinnacle of womanhood, every man's dream girl.

I would say they wrote her as desirable, but they also gave her a lot of baggage that would probably not make her particularly attractive to many men.  

[Cloud9Shopper]

30 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I would say they wrote her as desirable, but they also gave her a lot of baggage that would probably not make her particularly attractive to many men.  

I was honestly surprised that she was able to land Luka seeing what a hot mess she is and is just “blah” looking, not to mention she’s not exactly maternal and Luka’s whole existence was based on finding a family again. 

I still don’t understand how she ended up married with a baby or what Luka saw in her, other than the fact that she was Creator’s Pet who of course was going to get everything she wanted. 

[RedbirdNelly]

On 11/27/2023 at 11:50 PM, txhorns79 said:

Glenn Howerton and Scott Grimes both started on ER during the same episode.  My thought at the time was that Morris was originally meant as a recurring character whose incompetence would come to a head at some point, and he'd leave the show, while Howerton would eventually become a regular.  However, when Howerton left, (or more like his character just vanished with no explanation), the writers re-calibrated and they started writing Morris as a more competent physician who could plausibly stick around.

I remember the other character and expected him to stay around but he just disappeared. And you are right, it felt like Morris should have been the temporary one who realizes medicine is not for him.

[Cloud9Shopper]

Frances Sternhagen, who played Gamma Carter, has passed away:

https://www.broadway.com/buzz/197647/frances-sternhagen-two-time-tony-winning-star-of-stage-screen-dies-at-93/

I loved Gamma, especially when she and Carter got closer after he was stabbed. Her stubbornness in S8 is relatable now because my grandma in her 90s is being similar. And on a shallow note, I love how nicely she was always put together. She was on point whenever she was on camera. 

Edited November 29, 2023 by Cloud9Shopper

[WendyCR72]

4 hours ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

Frances Sternhagen, who played Gamma Carter, has passed away:

https://www.broadway.com/buzz/197647/frances-sternhagen-two-time-tony-winning-star-of-stage-screen-dies-at-93/

I loved Gamma, especially when she and Carter got closer after he was stabbed. Her stubbornness in S8 is relatable now because my grandma in her 90s is being similar. And on a shallow note, I love how nicely she was always put together. She was on point whenever she was on camera. 

She was indeed great as Millicent Carter. She was also great as Cliff Clavin's mother on Cheers and as Charlotte's [first] mother-in-law on Sex and The City.

[Heathen]

5 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

She was indeed great as Millicent Carter. She was also great as Cliff Clavin's mother on Cheers and as Charlotte's [first] mother-in-law on Sex and The City.

And the sheriff's deputy (and wife) in Misery. 

Gamma Carter is forever my picture of how a classy old-money woman should look and sound. Pearls, suits, hair always neatly done up. 

[GiandujaPie]

Just watched the most ridiculous season 13 episodes where Neela is "dating" Gates (while lamenting that he is now busy with taking care of Sarah and not knowing where she fits in to his life), has Ray pining after her and kissing her after a night out, and then Dubenko telling her that he's allowed his personal feelings for her to influence his treatment of her at work after she complained about no longer being the prized pupil. 

So we are to believe that 3 of her work colleagues are simultaneously in love with her??? Ridiculous. She's cute but just like Abby, not sure that her personality and baggage is all that appealing either. 

[txhorns79]

Been watching the third season.  I still can't believe Mark felt justified in going into Jeanie's private medical records to find out if she had HIV.  There should have been more professional fallout for him.  Even in 1996, what he did would have been a firing offense at most hospitals.  It was also kind of nice to see a storyline where Weaver was empathetic and caring.

I also really liked seeing Benton getting chewed out by Dr. Keaton for so badly messing up a surgery, and nearly killing a baby because of his own arrogance in not following her instructions.  That he was still arguing with her over his actions after she pointed out all his mistakes showed why he was completely unsuited to pediatric surgery.       

[Bastet]

12 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I also really liked seeing Benton getting chewed out by Dr. Keaton for so badly messing up a surgery, and nearly killing a baby because of his own arrogance in not following her instructions. 

When Pop started its syndication run, and that episode was coming up, I had no memory - not having seen it since it originally aired - of the surrounding storyline, but so clearly remembered her saying "If that baby dies, it will be my responsibility, but it will be your fault" to him.  Her best scene.

12 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I still can't believe Mark felt justified in going into Jeanie's private medical records to find out if she had HIV.  There should have been more professional fallout for him.  Even in 1996, what he did would have been a firing offense at most hospitals.  It was also kind of nice to see a storyline where Weaver was empathetic and caring.

Jeanie was fantastic when he had the gall to lecture her she should have told him about her HIV status and she came back with, “No, it’s better it happened this way – now you know about me, and I know a lot more about you.”  Because that was awful of him to access her records. Yet, like you said, he never got the punishment he deserved. 

I do love Kerry in that storyline, though, yes.  I like the foundation laid, with her and Mark struggling to hammer out a policy based on burgeoning, and sometimes conflicting, hospital policy, state law, and federal law, and with a patient telling Jeanie her protections only exist on paper, they will find a pretext to fire her in a hot minute, so do not let anyone know.

And then Mark is an asshole, violating policy and law by pulling up Jeanie's records, and Anspaugh even worse, inventing a specific set of requirements that means Jeanie's position will be the one eliminated, forcing Kerry to do it.  Kerry's hands were tied in terms of laying Jeanie off, but she was nothing but supportive emotionally and networked professionally to find her another job.  It's just a necessary part of litigation that Kerry was among those named in Jeanie's lawsuit, but Jeanie, in personal interaction, even after she was rightly reinstated, treating Kerry like the same shit as Anspaugh was gross.

[Cliffw]

38 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

Been watching the third season.  I still can't believe Mark felt justified in going into Jeanie's private medical records to find out if she had HIV.  There should have been more professional fallout for him.  Even in 1996, what he did would have been a firing offense at most hospitals.  It was also kind of nice to see a storyline where Weaver was empathetic and caring.

What infuriated me even more about the Mark/Jeanie deal was the fact that Jeanie ended up being the one who apologized to Mark for keeping her HIV a secret when she was stitching him up an episode later. Mark never once apologized for going through her files. 

[Cloud9Shopper]

Abby Keaton will always be my preferred/favorite Abby. I wish she could have stuck around. She could have existed offscreen with the Pakistan plotline and then come back once Glenne Headley had her baby IRL and had maternity leave, since they hid her pregnancy on the show.

I love Mark (I am coming up on the second half of S8 and am not ready for him to die), but agree that he was in the wrong when it came to going through Jeanie’s records. 

[Dr.OO7]

My two cents on the MD/JD thing:

My father went to law school later in life, as he'd always wanted to, after years of being an accountant, and repeatedly mentioned to me that two of his classmates were doctors, though I have no idea what was behind their decision to pursue a law degree. One of the doctors who interviewed me for a residency also idly mentioned to me that she was attending law school.

The MD degree is part of a lot of joint degree programs with the MBA, MPH (which of course, I only learned AFTER I completed mine 🙄), PhD, etc. But they're all set up to do your first two years of Basic Sciences, then the 1-5 years for the other degree before returning for your clinical rotations. There's no way Gallant's patient could have been attending both simultaneously. MAYBE if she was taking night school classes for law, it could technically work timewise, but even then, the tremendous amount of studying required for either degree would still be impossible to handle. It's no wonder she was on the verge of a breakdown.

Back to the Season 3 discussion. . .

Yes, Mark was an ass for snooping through Jeanie's medical records and further compounded by acting like an ignorant jackass in yanking her away from seeing patients.

[txhorns79]

So Mark is brutally assaulted in the men's room, and later smashes up the doctor's lounge.  It's hard for me to believe that behavior wouldn't immediately lead to a requirement that he seek help, or stop working at County.  Instead, we get Carol, out of all people, asking if there is a statute of limitations on Mark's trauma because she doesn't like his new lousy attitude.   

And just a note:  Anna, whose role during the fourth season is being a designated "poor," in contrast to Carter being a "rich," tells Carol that she is looking for apartments, but doesn't want a roommate because she doesn't want to share a bathroom.  A few episodes later, Carter visits her at what appears to be the flophouse she lives in, and it turns out she has to share a bathroom with other members of the building.  Poor continuity, show.        

Finally, I give the cast credit for making it through the live episode, but it feels like 90% of the documentary group's footage will end up getting blurred out due to patient privacy issues. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

So Mark is brutally assaulted in the men's room,

I just remember he was an asshole once again in this storyline, but not specifics -- maybe he finds out the accused could clearly not have done it, yet keeps on?

I'd say I can't believe how much they propped Mark up, but I can indeed.  He wasn't a bad person, but the show sure loved to whitewash his bad actions.  Which is typical with main characters, especially male main characters.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Bastet

[Notabug]

6 hours ago, Bastet said:

I just remember he was an asshole once again in this storyline, but not specifics -- maybe he finds out the accused could clearly not have done it, yet keeps on?

I'd say I can't believe how much they propped Mark up, but I can indeed.  He wasn't a bad person, but the show sure loved to whitewash his bad actions.  Which is typical with main characters, especially male main characters.

I think the cops figured out that the brother of the guy who had died who had threatened Mark, had a good alibi, but Mark was so convinced that it had to be him that he persisted in blaming the brother.  Mark never got a look at his attacker and also had a concussion, so might not have remembered details anyway, I think part of his pissy attitude was that it did seem to have been random, that there was no one who could be blamed and that he was never going to see his attacker punished.  His response was actually pretty typical of crime victims in that situation.  It still didn't make for interesting TV viewing.

[WendyCR72]

8 hours ago, Notabug said:

I think the cops figured out that the brother of the guy who had died who had threatened Mark, had a good alibi, but Mark was so convinced that it had to be him that he persisted in blaming the brother.  Mark never got a look at his attacker and also had a concussion, so might not have remembered details anyway, I think part of his pissy attitude was that it did seem to have been random, that there was no one who could be blamed and that he was never going to see his attacker punished.  His response was actually pretty typical of crime victims in that situation.  It still didn't make for interesting TV viewing.

I never even cared for Mark much (I know!), but I still can't ever watch the scene where he gets the shit kicked out of him.

And the aftermath only prolonged the agony.

[Cloud9Shopper]

I can’t watch the actual attack scene either. Last time I watched that episode, I just put my head down (or may have went to get a drink) when he was getting beat up. Wonder if a stunt double was used for Anthony Edwards or if he did the work himself.