Recruit Your Children and Other Center Directives

[FormerMod-a1]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

All true.  I'm going to respond by points.

1.  I think it may have been to delay Philip's meet with William, and thus saved him from capture.  (ha)  Anyway, to take it further, I think because Paige just watched a man efficiently killed, Philip didn't want to dump the whole thing on Elizabeth, and did try to diffuse it himself.  He actually cares just as much that his daughter is at a breaking point after the dead guy, as he does about his assignment.  Actually, I think that will play into the series resolve.  Which is more important, the cause or the kids?

That only answers last night's questions, but not the overall pattern of how they answer and treat here.  I just used last night as an example.

 

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

2.  Yes, I think I've fan wanked that into she's known for 8 months, but the only ops the Jennings had during that time were easily handled.  Rare meets with William, and Elizabeth meeting with Young Hee, often during the day when Paige was at school.  Now they are getting back into their rather busy routine.  ??

Possibly.  I may give you that one. :)  BUT that doesn't mean they could have talked about what kind of work they do, in general, or had more heart to hearts with Paige in that time.  It's like they don't want us to think how long Paige has actually know when it comes to her outbursts.
 

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

3.  I know what you mean, but I do see the choice between country and family is key to the Jennings.  They were willing to sacrifice their own lives for their country, but will they honestly be able to sacrifice Paige's?  She is their mirror now.  They HAVE to look, specifically at what they do, in not lying to Paige, they must stop lying to themselves.  William, the jaded spy, is over ideology and governments, he knows it's all bullshit on all sides.  Will the Jennings, in great part because of Paige, be coming to that conclusion as well?

But they could do this without it always being Paige stomping her feet and demanding they answer her now and having Philip and Elizabeth caving.  They could do with with scenes of just P&E, or of P and/or E with Gabe, or with knowing looks and whatnot while on ops, or many other ways I'm not thinking of since I'm not a writer.

[Umbelina]

They may be leading to that, but right now, I don't see Elizabeth as someone able to let doubt about her country in.  Philip already has it, he's not in William "all governments are bullshit and we are nothing more than pawns in their games" territory yet, but he's much closer than Elizabeth.

So what baby steps could there be for Elizabeth to get to the point of allowing herself doubts?  She got a few little nudges, but was able to brush them off.  The mail robot lady got to her, Young Hee and Don got to her, but not enough to take a good honest look at herself, and at what she's doing?

The only answer to that I can see is Paige.  The more Paige demands to know, the more Elizabeth will have to face about herself.  It's not lost on me that Paige is the same age she was when she began to spy.  Now, there is another "her" ready to be molded, and Elizabeth must see how vulnerable Paige is, and how easily she could lie and persuade or trick her, to "handle" her as she was "handled."  For the first time ever, Elizabeth may begin to realize that what happened to her was wrong.  For the first time ever, looking into young eyes, she realizes that describing what "they do" is monstrous.  If she doesn't lie, how can she really justify all of it?

For the cause?  Will that fly with Paige?  In the end though, the more important question is, Will it fly with Elizabeth any longer?

[curbcrusher]

I think this is where the @Umbelina  query about how Paige should have been written ended up.

I think there are 2 parts to the Paige story that would need to have changed to make if more believable and investable for me.

1) The original "reveal" should have been filled with doom about talking about what her parents really do. There is the perfect example of  what happened to the  other deep cover spy family. True, they were killed by their son after he found out, but they are a clear illustration of what can happen when someone finds out you are a spy. Elizabeth was too invested in trying to make her work sound like an atheist Pastor Tim working with her drug dealing friend Gregory to bring out the real consequences. Actually typing that reminds me that they could have held Gregory up as an example of what happens to people in this line of work.  The reveal was just a bit too much "Mommy and Daddy clock in for the USSR every morning and then come home at night." for me.

2) The consequences of telling Pastor Tim.  This is just bad they way it had happened. They have tied Pastor Tim to the family forever and live with a axe hanging over their heads. There should have been a 3 pronged response. a) Discredit Paige to Pastor Tim as much as possible. The "we're travel agents and leave home a lot. She reads way too many Robert Ludlum novels and we are getting her help" approach. b) Explain to Paige that she got to sit at the big girl table, but she blew it. She will act like she went nuts, she will sacrifice her reputation with Pastor Tim and she will do what we say for the next 2 years. This is because you acted like a child and so you are being treated like one. c) Distance the family and Paige as much as possible from Pastor Tim so he will forget about them.

The reason for (c) above is that if I take the following motivations into consideration: a) Center, and P&E, want Paige to become a second generation spy, and b) When she's old enough Paige will get a job with access to secrets.  Keeping Pastor Tim around is not going to help with (b). To get access to top secret stuff in the 80's meant a thorough background check. Interviews with neighbors, old neighbors, pastors, teachers, etc. By keeping Pastor Tim close, they are setting it up so that in six years two DIA guys are going to show up at the church and ask to talk to Pastor Tim about Paige. Is he going to hold up? Not to mention the fact that he is all for unilateral disarmament and probably a supporter of liberation theology, so that will draw more attention and investigation and may impact adult Paige from getting a clearance. They need to distance themselves from Pastor Tim for a bunch of reasons.

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, curbcrusher said:

Discredit Paige to Pastor Tim as much as possible.

This is one thing I really don't think would have worked. It seems like it would have blown up in their faces, actually. Paige at that point wouldn't have been able to lie, I don't think--I don't think she'd be able to pull it off even now. Plus it would have just driven her to Pastor Tim because her parents were betraying her, and I don't think he'd have bought it knowing Paige. I think it would make him totally suspicious that something bad was going on, even if it wasn't spying, and he'd have gotten even more involved.

That said yes, the lack of focus on the danger was really glaring given just how naive Paige turned out to be, and it's not like her parents weren't somewhat aware of that.

As for what will happen to Tim in the future, again yeah, it doesn't seem like they're thinking it through. At least, not if they have any thoughts of Paige actually being a spy. Pastor Tim would absolutely make that impossible so if she really got on board she'd have to be okay with killing him and his wife. Eventually those things are going to collide.

[Umbelina]

Very interesting ideas @curbcrusher.

I don't think that part two would have worked though, because once it was out there, I don't think the Pastors would have dropped it, or believed Paige had imagined it.  You know how, when you have spent a great deal of time with someone, you can just hear honesty in their voices?  If anything, trying something like that would have probably ended up with the Pastors involving the authorities, to make sure Paige was OK. 

I think the best thing would have been to kill the Pastors straight away, make it look like a car accident or some other common occurrence.  Paige would, of course, have questioned that.  Too bad.  At that point they could have had two choices, "Well, we told you not to tell anyone, perhaps now you'll realize we meant that."  (along with saying something like "It was out of our hands, we reported it, and apparently this is what our bosses decided was necessary.")  OR lie, lie, lie and say "accidents happen."

Good points though!  It's not so much Paige as an annoyance to me, it's the damn Pastors.  WHY are they still around?  Ha.

ETA, Paige and Liz flew on their own passports to Germany too, her story has easily checked facts to back it up.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Umbelina

[RedHawk]

I know! I wish they'd been killed! 

As for discrediting Paige with Pastor Tim, I agree that it would have been very difficult and he was definitely the type to keep sticking his nose in since she was officially a baptised member of the church and he felt he had a responsibility toward her. He had already set himself up in opposition to her parents and was very (annoyingly!) possessive of her.

I've grown tired of Paige's emotional reactions (for one reason because Holly Taylor can't act well). 

I think it would have been more realistic for Paige to focus on issues closer to home rather than wide implications. For example, she might have focused on feeling that her dad is being dishonest and a hypocrite for being "friends" with Stan when she naturally would suspect that he's just using Stan for info. I certainly don't think she would go to a place of "I'm an accomplice to their crimes now and could end up in prison". That seems so far out of her experience or what she might envision. But then, she's watching this soap opera with storyline featuring spies! Until she learned that her mother was capable of quickly and coldly killing a man, she might have imagined they were sort of "glamorous". I mean, did they purposely chose to raise their kids without seeing James Bond movies? There was a new one out every year back then! So yeah, I would have said, "You mean, you're spies like in the James Bond movies? Were you trained in self-defense and weapons and that stuff?" Perhaps this will be more Henry's reaction.

Because of her connection with the church she has this more moralistic stance, and put her trust in Pastor Tim when she needed someone to confide in. Ultimately I'm feeling that Elizabeth and Philip have really bungled how they told Paige and how they've handled her ever since. They were being pushed both by The Centre and by Paige, and were arguing about it themselves. It could have been written differently and still got us to the same "Paige is a reflection of Elizabeth" and so on sort of place.

[scrb]

I don't think Phillip and Elizabeth would remain sympathetic characters if they killed Tim and Alice.

In fact, it would be disappointing if Paige didn't react with horror.  The USSR didn't exactly have the greatest reputation in the US at the time.  So it would be hard for Paige to accept that KGB agents are trying to make the world a better place, as Elizabeth claims.

Of course, Paige knows them as loving parents, stern but they're not "old school" parents who yell or use the belt on them.  Which is kind of surprising given their age and given the hardscrabble upbringing they must have had in the old country.  They're not just Americanized in their parenting but one might say very post- Dr. Spock type of parents, who try to be friends to their children, reason with them, etc.

Beyond the shock of learning the true identities of their parents, you'd think Paige would research what the KGB is about, look into whether Stalinism was as bad as portrayed.  Good thing for P&E that there was no Google back then, to bring up this info. readily.  But beyond going back to older Soviet history, there was a lot in the news about the Korean airliner downing or the Afghanistan war, where the Soviets come off looking poorly in the Western media -- ironically, it wouldn't be until Glasnost and Perestroika when there was more positive media coverage of the USSR.

Going back to this question, the only reason to kill Tim and Alice would be to protect their identities, not to better the world.  Of course Elizabeth would have no second thoughts about doing this but Philip is the one who sees beyond Soviet propaganda, sees life is better here, not as decadent as claimed by Pravda and other propaganda organs.

Elizabeth tells Paige they're trying to acquire a weapon to help the USSR protect itself but she doesn't say it's a bio weapon.  But can she credibly claim that the USSR faces an existential threat if they can't acquire the weapon?  This is in an atmosphere of nuclear paranoia.  There was very much an awareness of how large the nuclear arsenals of the two superpowers were, how many times over each country could wipe out the other and the rest of the world.  So that's why there was talk of Star Wars and midrange nuclear missiles in Europe.  All of that led to the huge nuclear disarmament push.  The series covered reactions to "The Day After" movie but there were large rallies during this time period, such as a big protest at Central Park in July 1982:

On June 12, 1982, one million people demonstrated in New York City's Central Park against nuclear weapons and for an end to the cold war arms race. It was the largest anti-nuclear protest and the largest political demonstration in American history.[2][3]International Day of Nuclear Disarmament protests were held on June 20, 1983 at 50 sites across the United States.[25][26] In 1986, hundreds of people walked from Los Angeles to Washington DC in the Great Peace March for Global Nuclear Disarmament.[27] There were many Nevada Desert Experience protests and peace camps at the Nevada Test Site during the 1980s and 1990s.[28][29]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_disarmament

William and Oleg both express misgivings about getting the bio weapon into the hands of the Kremlin, implying that they didn't trust the Soviet leaders, but they could easily have questioned the need for another type of WMD, given the consciousness at the time about the existential threat posed by the nuclear weapons which already existed.

They briefly alluded to Paige taking part in anti-nuclear protests organized by Pastor Tim.  So if she was as aware of the nuclear disarmament movement, which had backing by celebrities back then, she wouldn't accept the notion that her parents had to get weapons to defend the Soviet Union when Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) was talked about constantly.  Nor would she accept that they would need to kill Tim and Alice to continue this work.

Faced with a choice between running away, even to the USSR and killing Tim and Alice so that they could remain in the US, it's inconceivable that Paige would accept the latter.  Of course the Center would ultimately tell Phil and Elizabeth to do the latter, probably over Philip's objections.

[Umbelina]

Quote

William and Oleg both express misgivings about getting the bio weapon into the hands of the Kremlin, implying that they didn't trust the Soviet leaders, but they could easily have questioned the need for another type of WMD, given the consciousness at the time about the existential threat posed by the nuclear weapons which already existed.

It wasn't just about the leaders though, they both know that the soviets are broke, that they simply didn't have the facilities to safely handle such a dangerous bioweapon.  "At least the Americans make jars with lids that fit." 

Honestly, Paige should have been terrified by Elizabeth telling her "a part for a weapon" because my mind wouldn't have gone to bio terror, but to nukes. 

Yeah, there wasn't google, but there were libraries, and knowledgeable librarians.  I used to spend a great deal of time in libraries, I loved them.  The information may not have been available at the click of a mouse and a few types words, but it was out there.  Hell, The Gulag Archipelago was published here in 1973.  There were many, many books and well researched articles that could have answered her questions.

Edited June 4, 2016 by Umbelina

[hellmouse]

1 hour ago, RedHawk said:

Because of her connection with the church she has this more moralistic stance, and put her trust in Pastor Tim when she needed someone to confide in. Ultimately I'm feeling that Elizabeth and Philip have really bungled how they told Paige and how they've handled her ever since. They were being pushed both by The Centre and by Paige, and were arguing about it themselves. It could have been written differently and still got us to the same "Paige is a reflection of Elizabeth" and so on sort of place.

I suspect that we will see them handle telling Henry much better because they've learned from this experience with Paige. It's just like so many other things in parenting - things that terrify you with your firstborn are easier with the second because you have gone through it before. Henry is also less tightly wound than Paige. I'm sure he'll have questions and concerns but he won't react the same way Paige has. 

[sistermagpie]

Paige managed to track down Gregory Thomas both as a Civil Rights leader and as a drug dealer using microfiche. She could walk into her school library and be given tons of info. She could even read magazines around her own house probably!

1 minute ago, hellmouse said:

I suspect that we will see them handle telling Henry much better because they've learned from this experience with Paige. It's just like so many other things in parenting - things that terrify you with your firstborn are easier with the second because you have gone through it before. Henry is also less tightly wound than Paige. I'm sure he'll have questions and concerns but he won't react the same way Paige has. 

 

1 minute ago, hellmouse said:

I suspect that we will see them handle telling Henry much better because they've learned from this experience with Paige. It's just like so many other things in parenting - things that terrify you with your firstborn are easier with the second because you have gone through it before. Henry is also less tightly wound than Paige. I'm sure he'll have questions and concerns but he won't react the same way Paige has. 

I almost wonder if in some ways he'd be worse, bringing up the obvious fact that their countries are somewhat at war with each other! Who are those weapons there to defend them from exactly?

[hellmouse]

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I almost wonder if in some ways he'd be worse, bringing up the obvious fact that their countries are somewhat at war with each other! Who are those weapons there to defend them from exactly?

You're right, it might be worse with Henry. Even though he is not as anxious as Paige, he is positioned to have his own conflict about what his parents do because of his relationship with Stan. His potentially competing source of moral authority is Stan, who represents the FBI, the rule of law, the USA. That's very different from Paige feeling a connection to Pastor Tim, who represents the church, the rule of God, the authority higher than the state. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, hellmouse said:

His potentially competing source of moral authority is Stan, who represents the FBI, the rule of law, the USA.

Not that Stan hasn't played fast and loose with the law sometimes himself, of course...

[hellmouse]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Not that Stan hasn't played fast and loose with the law sometimes himself, of course...

True! But Henry doesn't know that.

[Miss Dee]

Sometimes I think I'd like to see Henry finding out the truth about his parents, or have them tell him themselves... only to have him march over to Stan's and say "I'm a loyal American so I need to tell you: I think my parents are spies."

[sistermagpie]

From the Pests thread...

2 hours ago, SlackerInc said:

But which passages?   Two of my most liberal friends (from different places) are devout Christians and are very conversant with the Bible.

 

We don't know since despite the stickies and avid reading, she never quotes the Bible. One of the only times they refer to it specifically is when Pastor Tim talks about Jesus telling Peter to stand down when the soldiers come to get him--iow, Jesus being a pacifist. And that's just the general story rather than quoting verses that are important. Though Bible Study and marked up Bibles generally are about meditating on specific verses. She talks like somebody who's more about the general ideas.

34 minutes ago, Tetraneutron said:

Paige is older. Of course she's going to be the focus. I agree with you - I've always said that Paige and Henry are two different sides of the American experience that conflict with how P and E were raised. Paige is religious and wholesome and believes in institutions, that you're supposed to be good and listen to your elders and everything will work out like it's supposed to, and Henry likes shiny toys and entertainment and doesn't take things seriously. Superego and id, if you want to be simplistic about it. I expect Henry to be a bigger part in the next season, when he'll be as old as Paige was when they let her into this. 

I'd adjust that a little bit. Elizabeth is very much a believer in listening to her elders and being good and in institutions. She would never break Soviet laws the way she breaks American ones. She also still believes everything is going to work out like it's supposed to--that's why she never loses faith in the Cause. They just need to be the Soviet version. So I'd say with them it's more like they're the same, but they each looked to the basically conservative institutions of their own society. Elizabeth is just as superego as Paige is. Even more so, really. Paige feels entitled to do things she wants. In a way, Paige kind of says to her mother all the things Elizabeth didn't say to her own.

With Henry, he likes toys and pop culture etc., sure. He's not super serious like Paige and his mother. But the few times he has been serious it's usually people oriented. He brained a guy with a bottle of beer when he thought he threatened his family, retreated into himself when his parents separated and he's been in despair about the morality of his actions after the fact.

Iow, he sounds a lot like Philip. Enjoying the good things in life when available, protective of his family, thinking about right and wrong more from an individual pov than a rule-based one. So I wouldn't say he's just Id. I think he's been pretty consistently intellectually curious, even if his curiosity doesn't follow the paths his school goes. 

Edited March 20, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

It's odd, I really like Henry, and he has always seemed the far more likely to be cool with it KGB recruited kid. 

I think I only dislike Paige for a few reasons.  1.  She's crammed down our throats in most episodes.  2.  The whole brat aspect, screaming about the KGB when others could hear, ratting out her parents, not really maturing at all after being told such serious shit.  3.  I'm bored senseless by the whole Pastor/Church crap.  4.  Honestly, the use of her eyebrows, I'm sick of the same old expression on the actress's face.

Henry, though given very little to do, nearly always entertains and interests me.  Braining the creepy guy with the beer bottle, not wanting to get in that car in the first place.  Breaking into his friend's house multiple times before getting caught.  His friendship with Stan, and the very telling looks we see on his face during so many moments, he conveys a LOT with those, that look of resignation or near eye rolls when the phone rings and suddenly dad or mom must go to the office.  His sophisticated hiding place for his stash of girly photos.  HE KNOWS something is up, he's observant, he's more self sufficient, and he's not a temper tantrum thrower like his sister.

For example, I feel like if Paige tells Stan about her parents it will be a slip or some emotional outburst, or for a very selfish reason.  If Henry did?  It wouldn't be a slip, it wouldn't be for purely emotional reasons.  Henry seems more the type to logically figure out what he wants to do, and why, and exactly plan how he would go about it.

ETA, vast over generalization but to me:

Paige and Elizabeth are fanatics, they both share that trait. 

Philip and Henry are more practical, tend to think more clearly and dispassionately.

(I've never liked fanatics)

Edited March 21, 2017 by Umbelina

[SunnyBeBe]

I'm hoping that I am on the correct thread.  I just have a couple of questions in general.  

Does the FBI have finger prints on P or E?  It seems like P totally cleaned that apt he had when dating Martha and someone from The Center cleaned Martha's too, but, it seems to me that there is a finger print out there. Where did they get it?  Also, any for E?

I know that E suffered a lot over a tooth ache, because she didn't want to see a dentist for multiple reasons. One, because she didn't want to get noticed as having an injury and the other was to avoid dental files.  DO P & E have any dental files that we know of?  How would they avoid all dental care for years?  Center approved dentists?  What about the kids?  Do Paige and Henry have dental files anywhere?  How would they avoid that?

Edited April 5, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Does the FBI have finger prints on P or E?  

I believe Stan said they got a partial print from Clark's apartment.

3 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I know that E suffered a lot over a tooth ache, because she didn't want to see a dentist for multiple reasons. One, because she didn't want to get noticed as having an injury and the other was to avoid dental files.  DO P & E have any dental files that we know of?  How would they avoid all dental care for years?  Center approved dentists?  What about the kids?  Do Paige and Henry have dental files anywhere?  How would they avoid that?

They're not avoiding dental care. Presumably they both have regular dentists, as do the kids. She was only avoiding going to the dentist for that one injury because the FBI had sent out a thing to dentists all over the place to report anyone with that kind of injury. There was no suggestion that I remember that they were avoiding dental files.

[SunnyBeBe]

Hmmm.....I would think that having dental files creates a concrete way to identify you and that would be risky. 

[sistermagpie]

7 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Hmmm.....I would think that having dental files creates a concrete way to identify you and that would be risky. 

But don't they only use those things when you're dead to identify corpses? I mean, it wouldn't tie them to any of their other identities. If they've got them in person and can check their teeth they know their identities anyway.

[SunnyBeBe]

25 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But don't they only use those things when you're dead to identify corpses? I mean, it wouldn't tie them to any of their other identities. If they've got them in person and can check their teeth they know their identities anyway.

Maybe, if they stay who they are playing, E & P, but, what if they have the need to create a new identity one day and move to another state or even country.  Any inquiry could connect them by dental records.  Just speculating.  In a few years, DNA will track them forever, so, I guess it's a moot point. 

[sistermagpie]

39 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Maybe, if they stay who they are playing, E & P, but, what if they have the need to create a new identity one day and move to another state or even country.  Any inquiry could connect them by dental records.  Just speculating.  In a few years, DNA will track them forever, so, I guess it's a moot point. 

Would it connect them? I don't know how that would work. With fingerprints they pick them up because they're left behind at the scene. I guess if they were desperate they'd do a little dental work in between or something to make the records different?

What actually just struck me is that if they had any dental work done back home that would be something someone could identify. I remember a L&O where a corpse had dental work that the coroner said probably meant they were Eastern European. But if they had a set rule on the show that no Illegals must ever see dentists I imagine they'd have their own.

Edited April 5, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Nash]

I'm presuming that P&E's legends are based on children who died very young in the 1940s; the KGB worked hard to build those covers and once P&E were established in USA, the system took over and put layer after layer of real cover on top. When the KGB do interrogate him, P is told his cover is spotty up to 1965. So if you had P&E in a group of say 50 possibles, you could just throw FBI agents at their history in a brute force attack and shred their covers. Thing is, they are hidden in with all those names from the 1940s and in 1984 I doubt if the FBI has the online records to crunch all that data. 

As for Moscow Centre and the Paige Gambit, the books on the Mitrokhin archive make it clear that Centre was in its own world and the data/facts on the ground didn't translate well into the apparatchik mindset. The theory was that Philby was an MI5 double because he didn't report the attempted MI6 penetration of the NKVD in the 1940s; he couldn't because there wasn't any - they focused on the Nazis - but the NKVD world view said there HAD to be a plot. So....recruiting Paige may be a bone stupid idea but Centre liked it so it was never going off the agenda; it's just a matter of how they do it and when it all goes wrong.

[sistermagpie]

Quote

However, to Center, (which I agree, we've been shown and told on the show that they ARE out of touch, too removed, and in many cases up their own asses, and barely have a clue what the USA is like) I disagree that Kimmie is the most important op.  To them, as (again) we've been told over and over again?  THE most important op to them is the 2nd Generation spy program right now. 

Moved from the World Council of Churches Thread...

Yeah, but Kimmie is a totally different kind of op--she's producing actual information now.  It's hard to believe anybody in Moscow would be willing to throw away the head of the Soviet Division for almost any reason, especially when Paige is coming along just fine with Philip at her side. At this point however important they consider the 2nd gen program, they don't have to choose. The Jennings have done everything the Centre wanted on that score. Philip himself has acknowledged the possibility that Paige might become a spy. If they were tracking her development, she's moved steadily closer to her parents.

In fact, it was Philip who wanted to tell Paige about the wheat plot, which inspired the most interest in the program Paige has ever shown. It was probably Philip's idea to bring her to meet Gabriel--a huge symbolic gesture--and then Gabriel told her her parents were heroes and she came to understand that he was her family. Philip was even the one that first pushed them over the edge of telling them who they were when Elizabeth choked. He might not laugh with her about the fake names he uses like Elizabeth does, but he hasn't done anything to influence her against the thing either. (He told her that The Day After was why he did what he did.) He oversaw her working of the Tims with Elizabeth. He knows everything Elizabeth's doing with her. If Philip is the Centre's biggest problem then they have some pretty great problems, despite his being occasionally too protective about their sources. (And he probably isn't the only spy who has bad impulses that need to be managed--surely they must have some alcoholics, drug addicts or people with a weakness for sex, right?)

What's also ironic is that on her own Elizabeth might have turned Paige against the idea by now. And even Elizabeth isn't ready to force her, it doesn't seem. (Unsure how or if she imagines turning Henry Soviet while he's home on break from fancy US prep school if he actually enjoys it--and then sending him back hoping he doesn't blab like his sister did, only this time he's several states away and it's harder for them to know about it, but they both seem to be just pretending that's not a thing to think about.)

Not that something being a bad idea means the Centre wouldn't do it, but their pattern of bad ideas seems to usually be more about wanting more more more, not tossing things away.

[Umbelina]

Yes, but that ignores all the other points about Philip and his behavior I've made.  Philip isn't JUST a problem about this.

[sistermagpie]

19 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Yes, but that ignores all the other points about Philip and his behavior I've made.  Philip isn't JUST a problem about this.

Well, yeah, but I was just talking about the issue of the 2nd program vs. throwing away Kimmie here, and saying that both those things are going forward at this point with Philip so there's no actual reason to blow up one to save the other. Philip having a target painted on his back has been canon from S1--even before the show started--thanks to Elizabeth. It's been mentioned--at this point, according to Gabriel, Elizabeth shouldn't feel over-confident either. Given that this is the last season he's no longer protected by being the leading character, so he could certainly wind up the victim of somebody's paranoia. (In fact, looking through the series it's usually Philip who faces situations where a dad is taken from his family, so maybe it's foreshadowing.) Whether this would be a smart decision on the Centre's part is a more subjective question. To me it seems like the Centre chopping off a leg with a dirty knife to deal with an ingrown toe nail.

[SusanSunflower]

Elizabeth is the better agent, Phillip is the better "human being" ... so I think, even if he becomes some sacrificial lamb, Elizabeth will not triumph.  

Elizabeth has betrayed Phillip, her partner, husband, father of her children, casually, easily to both Gabriel and Claudia either to show her  her (in contrast) unquestioning loyalty or push her case as "favorite child."  Poorly parented children (in "The Americans" universe -- and beyond) seek validation ... Paige with Pastor Tim, Henry with Stan and his new girlfriend's high-status family ... As I've said, I think this is also part of a natural maturational process, seeking the approval and input of other people -- beyond mom&dad.  

I can hope that Elizabeth doesn't become some bad guy, in contrast to Phillip being some good guy ... within the conventional humanist versus pragmatist paradigm (in which career women are yesterday's "refrigerator mothers" or wire cage moms, versus the -- smacked into superman redemption mode -- men "risk everything" to protect and affirm conventional conservative "loving" nuclear family values) ... 

This get into "attenuated ideologic paradigm" territory ...  Is Phillip the "good father" and Elizabeth the "bad mother" ... like, respectively.  Gregory and Claudia ... 

The question of who "should" win and why seems to be the puzzle under discussion here ... (also known as:  suspense)

Edited November 5, 2017 by SusanSunflower

[sistermagpie]

8 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

Poorly parented children (in "The Americans" universe -- and beyond) seek validation ... Paige with Pastor Tim, Henry with Stan and his new girlfriend's high-status family ... As I've said, I think this is also part of a natural maturational process, seeking the approval and input of other people -- beyond mom&dad.  

Gotta say, I don't think either Henry or Paige are poorly parented at all despite their parents' obvious limits. The kids' interest in Pastor Tim and Stan and Chris seems much more normal maturation than some craving for decent parenting even if we acknowledge the things they were seeking out they weren't getting at home. (And with Chris we don't even know what if any role her father plays at all in Henry's interest.) They're good enough parents that they get graded at the way steep end of the curve.

10 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

This get into "attenuated ideologic paradigm" territory ...  Is Phillip the "good father" and Elizabeth the "bad mother" ... like, respectively.  Gregory and Claudia ... 

I've never gotten the impression that Elizabeth is being put across as a bad mother. Even her enthusiasm for her children becoming spies seems played to me more as a person who is torn between things she was taught a good parent should do / not wanting to hurt her children the way she was hurt and wanting to keep her children close / thinking her children might be better off without her. Even Gabriel and Claudia aren't really good and bad--some of Gabriel's most hurtful actions are hidden from the Jennings' along with some of Claudia's warmer moments. It's hard to get as much of a handle on Philip not knowing much about his specific history, but to me it seems like Elizabeth's parenting arc seems very individual to her.

[Umbelina]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Well, yeah, but I was just talking about the issue of the 2nd program vs. throwing away Kimmie here, and saying that both those things are going forward at this point with Philip so there's no actual reason to blow up one to save the other. Philip having a target painted on his back has been canon from S1--even before the show started--thanks to Elizabeth. It's been mentioned--at this point, according to Gabriel, Elizabeth shouldn't feel over-confident either. Given that this is the last season he's no longer protected by being the leading character, so he could certainly wind up the victim of somebody's paranoia. (In fact, looking through the series it's usually Philip who faces situations where a dad is taken from his family, so maybe it's foreshadowing.) Whether this would be a smart decision on the Centre's part is a more subjective question. To me it seems like the Centre chopping off a leg with a dirty knife to deal with an ingrown toe nail.

I don't think Center would "throw away" Kimmie.  No one is irreplaceable in this world or in the real world.  The Kimmie op could be salvaged, they know so much about her now from Philip's reports, just slide in a slightly more age appropriate suitor / spy and keep it going, using all they now know about her psychologically.  Also, Philip keeps refusing to sleep with her, and she's of an age where sooner or later, a sexual relationship with a guy is going to replace Philip's allure, so put someone else in to take over.

Philip still has a few honey trapping years left in him, because of the whole double standard about men still being sexy as they age but menopausal women?  Not quite so much, even thought the MiLf factor is there.  Elizabeth though, is reaching the stage of being a youngish Claudia running spies, rather than actually doing the spying herself.  (Other than jobs like Claudia occasionally does.)

I don't see Center as making "smart" decisions these days, I think they are in disarray and showing some desperation and odd decision making.  See Pasha's mom, the former housewife only, suddenly expected to morph into a super spy capable of taking down or conning one of the best CIA agents there is.  Only the best of the best are even assigned to Moscow, and that guy is going as Deputy Chief of Station.  It's beyond unbelievable.  Yet Center WANTS to believe it's possible, to me that shows chaos in their operations.

[sistermagpie]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Center would "throw away" Kimmie.  No one is irreplaceable in this world or in the real world.  The Kimmie op could be salvaged, they know so much about her now from Philip's reports, just slide in a slightly more age appropriate suitor / spy and keep it going, using all they now know about her psychologically. 

If this guy is already in place and Kimmie's meeting with him regularly and wants to marry him or whatever then yes, they've got her covered. But at the moment that guy doesn't exist and Jim does. Kimmie's not even the same girl she was when Philip first started working her. A more age appropriate suitor/spy who's ready to sleep with her right now (as opposed to Philip who's talked about only maybe sleeping with her in the future) might find himself dumped quicker than expected.

I don't know if a desperate Centre would show its desperation by being overconfident or not wanting to rock the boat until they absolutely have to do it.

[Umbelina]

Again, compared to their second generation spy program?  Kimmie is nothing.  Aside from everything else, she's probably on her way to college soon.

[kokapetl]

I assume there was some logic to sending 40 something Philip, who was already doing double duty as Clark, after a 16 year old girl. Reasons like his experience and skill combined with lack of younger alternatives. The Center works it’s platinum spies to the bone, and I don’t think many make it as far as the Jennings have. Philip is not so replaceable. 

Elizabeth’s sex appeal will fade, but she still has the advantage of generally being trusted more because she’s a woman, and women’s appearances are also allowed to be more customized and varied than men’s. Elizabeth’s disguises work way better than Philip’s. 

Claudia’s “grandma from Texas who locked herself out of her niece’s apartment” was a great example.  

Edited November 5, 2017 by Kokapetl

[sistermagpie]

31 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Again, compared to their second generation spy program?  Kimmie is nothing.  Aside from everything else, she's probably on her way to college soon.

But that again gets back to the idea that they have to choose when at this point they don't. Philip is both hanging out with Kimmie and bringing Paige to meet Grandpa Gabriel. So if they think getting rid of him will gain them Paige and Henry, and assuming that attacking this family is no big thing, they might be shooting themselves in the face.

29 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

I assume there was some logic to sending 40 something Philip, who was already doing double duty as Clark, after a 16 year old girl. Reasons like his experience and skill combined with lack of younger alternatives. The Center works it’s platinum spies to the bone, and I don’t think many make it as far as the Jennings have. Philip is not so replaceable. 

They sent Philip because Kimmie was specifically interested in a relationship with a man her father's age. That was the exact information the got that gave them an opening. The were originally tailing another guy in the group hoping his divorce would make him need money. Then they heard what they thought was him having an affair with the babysitter and thought they could blackmail him. Then they realized that really the babysitter was just looking for a middle aged man, secretly throwing herself at her father's co-workers, so that's why they sent in Philip. Kimmie never gave much indication that she was particularly vulnerable to just a boyfriend in general. On that score she's pretty much the same as any child or spouse of a CIA agent. It's actually possible that her relationship with Jim has now become unique enough that it's outlasted the original need she might have outgrown. (A sexual relationship with a real Jim might have run its course by now.)

In fact, as an aside, it's kind of interesting to compare it to Paige's parallel relationship with Pastor Tim.

29 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Claudia’s “grandma from Texas who locked herself out of her niece’s apartment” was a great example.  

Yeah, Claudia seems pretty valuable in general--and she never looked like Elizabeth.

Edited November 5, 2017 by sistermagpie

[Umbelina]

Quote

But that again gets back to the idea that they have to choose when at this point they don't. Philip is both hanging out with Kimmie and bringing Paige to meet Grandpa Gabriel. So if they think getting rid of him will gain them Paige and Henry, and assuming that attacking this family is no big thing, they might be shooting themselves in the face.

Philip also:

****Was reported by Elizabeth as "liking the USA too much" and possibly not trustworthy.  There is no way Moscow has "forgotten that" especially now that they know Elizabeth is emotionally involved with her partner, and may not be as honest with them anymore.

****Refused to seduce Kimmie, a direct order.

****Has been vehemently AGAINST the "second generation spy" program, on several occasions, to both Claudia and to Gabe.

****Disobeyed orders again when his plan for Elizabeth and Paige to go see grandma was refused, he then belligerently and deliberately did it anyway.  This forced Center to scramble on their end, and no doubt, infuriated them.

****It also led directly to Paige telling the Pastor everything about the KGB, once again forcing Center to scramble and arrange the murder of two Americans, which was called off at the last second because of the infection/no cover for the Jennings.

****Has fallen in love with his KGB partner, and she with him, possibly compromising their KGB duties.  One obvious example of that is that Elizabeth listened to Philip instead of her handler, who represents Center, and went to Europe with Paige.  This is the first time we know of that Elizabeth has failed to follow orders.  Why?  Logically, because of Philip.

****Blew the Martha operation sky high by pulling her from the field.  Again, even though later proven correct?  Caused the KGB to scramble again, because Philip, once again, disobeyed orders and did what he wanted to do.

****Philip and Elizabeth also just decided to not meet with their respective sources in Omaha *or where ever the hell they are.

****Philip revealed his true face, no disguise, to Martha, then FAILED to inform his KGB handler and his partner that he had done so.

****Philip is the one who is depressed and going to EST (!) for answers, a place that makes you spill your guts if you expect any help.

****Philip wanted to just drop the entire Pasha's mother back to Russia mission.  He showed little enthusiasm for it at all, and was going to give up on it until Tuan forced his hand with convincing Pasha to try pretend suicide.

****Philip NEARLY EXPOSED ALL OF THEM by angrily stalking towards Pasha's house right through a crowd of FBI handlers.  He would have, and nearly did, ruin Tuan, Elizabeth, himself, and the second generation spy program as KGB operatives forever.  Tuan and Elizabeth begged him, alerted him to the FBI, and he didn't give a shit, and kept going.  At the last second Elizabeth grabbed his arm and pretended a stroll.  Repeat, he nearly burned 5 KGB officers with that move, two of them the very valuable potential second generation spies.  He's out of control.

 

There is a point where an agent's value is weighed against his potential harm to other agents.  Philip is WAY past that point, no one is that valuable.  I didn't even list all of the things about Philip that Moscow may be concerned about.  Compromising Elizabeth by this new "we love each other" stuff is probably their most concerning development.  They've been effective for years before that happened, now?  It's a different situation.  They know Philip and Liz may choose each other over their duty, and that's a big deal.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Umbelina

[kokapetl]

Philip is somewhat risky, but he makes it work. Elizabeth and Claudia both broke the rules in pursuing Patterson. Lizzy was resistant to the Mr Young Hee plan. William complained a lot and achieved very little for most of his 25 years. Philip is still alive, unlike Leanne, Emmet, Jared, Kate, William and the guy with the Puerto Rican girlfriend in the pilot. 

Edited November 5, 2017 by Kokapetl

[sistermagpie]

10 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

Elizabeth and Claudia both broke the rules in pursuing Patterson. Lizzy was resistant to the Mr Young Hee plan. 

As an aside, wasn't Claudia's entire project of hooking up Philip and Elizabeth with Larrick her personally using agents to investigate Emmett and Leanne's death? Because she worried it might have been her fault, since she'd revealed herself to some guy she was seeing? (Guess we don't know if the Centre ties back Gregory's public, messy death to Elizabeth disobeying orders to kill him.)

Elizabeth and Claudia are definitely examples of how you can break more rules if you say you never break the rules and punish other people severely for even seeming to think about it!

[Umbelina]

It's also important whether or not Center knows about rule breaking.  In Philip's?  They do.

William's mission was completely different than the Jennings'.  Raise no suspicion, get promoted to higher level jobs.  In any case, Center was pulling him from the field, but he died.  Did Philip rat him out?  I don't think so, so how would Center know he had treasonous thoughts or considered disobeying orders?

[kokapetl]

William was instructed to try to get level 4 clearance. He did not. Gabriel remarked that William’s 20 years had produced mostly worthless hepatitis and E. coli samples, and that his attitude was the reason he never made level 4. William also asked Philip to not do anything that would result in him acquiring level 4 clearance.

[SusanSunflower]

In hindsight I wonder if William had grown doubtful that the Centre wanted his "products" for purely defensive purposes.  He may have simply become revolted by biologic warfare altogether and wanted no part in its dissemination.  

[Umbelina]

William knew the USSR was not capable of handling those bio-weapons.  They were smart enough, he said, but they were equipped with crap lab stuff.

[SusanSunflower]

yes, that it was a disaster waiting to happen and that he wanted no part of ... so he procrastinated and deliberately "failed" to gain level IV 

[crgirl412]

22 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Philip also:

****Was reported by Elizabeth as "liking the USA too much" and possibly not trustworthy.  There is no way Moscow has "forgotten that" especially now that they know Elizabeth is emotionally involved with her partner, and may not be as honest with them anymore.

****Refused to seduce Kimmie, a direct order.

****Has been vehemently AGAINST the "second generation spy" program, on several occasions, to both Claudia and to Gabe.

****Disobeyed orders again when his plan for Elizabeth and Paige to go see grandma was refused, he then belligerently and deliberately did it anyway.  This forced Center to scramble on their end, and no doubt, infuriated them.

****It also led directly to Paige telling the Pastor everything about the KGB, once again forcing Center to scramble and arrange the murder of two Americans, which was called off at the last second because of the infection/no cover for the Jennings.

****Has fallen in love with his KGB partner, and she with him, possibly compromising their KGB duties.  One obvious example of that is that Elizabeth listened to Philip instead of her handler, who represents Center, and went to Europe with Paige.  This is the first time we know of that Elizabeth has failed to follow orders.  Why?  Logically, because of Philip.

****Blew the Martha operation sky high by pulling her from the field.  Again, even though later proven correct?  Caused the KGB to scramble again, because Philip, once again, disobeyed orders and did what he wanted to do.

****Philip and Elizabeth also just decided to not meet with their respective sources in Omaha *or where ever the hell they are.

****Philip revealed his true face, no disguise, to Martha, then FAILED to inform his KGB handler and his partner that he had done so.

****Philip is the one who is depressed and going to EST (!) for answers, a place that makes you spill your guts if you expect any help.

****Philip wanted to just drop the entire Pasha's mother back to Russia mission.  He showed little enthusiasm for it at all, and was going to give up on it until Tuan forced his hand with convincing Pasha to try pretend suicide.

****Philip NEARLY EXPOSED ALL OF THEM by angrily stalking towards Pasha's house right through a crowd of FBI handlers.  He would have, and nearly did, ruin Tuan, Elizabeth, himself, and the second generation spy program as KGB operatives forever.  Tuan and Elizabeth begged him, alerted him to the FBI, and he didn't give a shit, and kept going.  At the last second Elizabeth grabbed his arm and pretended a stroll.  Repeat, he nearly burned 5 KGB officers with that move, two of them the very valuable potential second generation spies.  He's out of control.

 

There is a point where an agent's value is weighed against his potential harm to other agents.  Philip is WAY past that point, no one is that valuable.  I didn't even list all of the things about Philip that Moscow may be concerned about.  Compromising Elizabeth by this new "we love each other" stuff is probably their most concerning development.  They've been effective for years before that happened, now?  It's a different situation.  They know Philip and Liz may choose each other over their duty, and that's a big deal.

Seeing them all in one place makes me have mixed emotions.  On one hand I am thrilled to see Philip's growing mercy, his kind actions towards others and his defiance of a heartless system.  One the other hand I am very scared for his life since they know about his multiple defiant episodes.

Amazing that you -and many others- can remember all of these things!

[Umbelina]

In the past, this show was pretty careful about keeping things relatively real on the spy side of things, other than of course, the absurd but understandable decision to have these valuable spies do things that nearly any other, less valuable spies could do.  (Break ins, hits, etc. would have been handled by the Residentura spies or special teams from Moscow.)

This past season was so bad, but I'm trying to hold on to faith in the writers of the first four seasons, that they will wrap this story up realistically.

Now, to me, that doesn't mean that they kill Philip, but it most certainly DOES mean that they try to remove him from the USA and stop him from endangering the second generation spy program with his rash, disobedient, or emotional actions.  They could certainly fail at that.

[kokapetl]

I think forcefully repatriating Philip and Elizabeth would clearly be a bad idea. They're intelligent, very dangerous, and they’re also very independent. Should they both quit and remain in America, they can be relied upon on not to incriminate each other, they won’t risk losing their kids, Claudia isn't really enough to bargain away all the illegal shit they’ve done, and rezidentura staff are basically untouchable as diplomats. The Jennings are gainfully employed as petit bourgeois travel agents. They have lost some of their enthusiasm for Marxist-Leninism, that doesn’t mean they like Reagan or Bush I. There’s still a shit ton of shady American government stuff that they’re privy to for them to object to. The second generation legal (authentic live American birth) illegal program was a failure with Jared (he also killed his potential asset sister), and Paige risked her platinum parents and potential asset Henry. Claudia knows the second generation program is not currently worth risking the first generation. However, the second generation program also would reasonably be assumed to have planned to have the first generation living out their entire remainder of their lives as Americans, Elizabeth never expected to see her mother again. Mischa and Nadezhda are 24/7 Philip and Elizabeth.

The KGB will probably soon be refocusing on impending domestic issues within the USSR anyway. 

Conditions in the field are such that Philip working on just maintaining Kimmie is better than any alternative approach that I can think of. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Kokapetl

[SusanSunflower]

I think they (The Centre) may realize that "second generation" although long a dream from at least the 1960's, is less viable in real life, because of the problems with American-raised, kids but also unnecessary since there is an influx of immigrants who are easily accepted and assimilated (like Tuan).   I think Tuan is being undervalued, he may have only newbie skills and street cred, but he's eminently trainable and eager ... not only wants to prove himself, it's what he wants to do when he grows up.  Willing to make sacrifices and endure hardships.  In Russia, where everyone is Russian, family & personal pedigree is more important not least because of all that horrible history. 

FWIW, I don't see Elizabeth (now or in 15 years) serving as anyone's minder (Claudia/Gabriel).  Philip might be able to handle the job and dealing with the individuals, but I don't think he's trustworthy in the sense that he would empathize with the other agents complaint.  Elizabeth wouldn't empathize enough and would quickly loathe them all. 

If Tuan can "seamlessly" take over Kimmie detail from Phillp (and I think he can), there will be a paradigm shift.  Kimmie plot could end in a heart beat if her dad switches briefcases or even just loses that one.  I do wonder if Kimmie's dad's new assignment will involve greater security, even a security sweep and ongoing monitoring sweeps and/or if better technology (transmitters) could lead to some upgrade.  (Aren't they going to be very tempted to pickup "the tapes" more ofte now that his work is so much more relevant and valuable?) 

ymmv.  Just some random thoughts/reactions. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, SusanSunflower said:

If Tuan can "seamlessly" take over Kimmie detail from Phillp (and I think he can), there will be a paradigm shift.  Kimmie plot could end in a heart beat if her dad switches briefcases or even just loses that one.  I do wonder if Kimmie's dad's new assignment will involve greater security, even a security sweep and ongoing monitoring sweeps and/or if better technology (transmitters) could lead to some upgrade.  (Aren't they going to be very tempted to pickup "the tapes" more ofte now that his work is so much more relevant and valuable?) 

Even if Tuan would be able to seamlessly take over with Kimmie (and we can't really assume he could), Tuan is not a Soviet agent. He works for Vietnamese intelligence. He's not KGB and not loyal to Russia or the Soviet Union at all.

Edited November 6, 2017 by sistermagpie

[SusanSunflower]

my point is that they thought -- 20 years before this period -- that having a next generation of young "real American" agents would be extremely desirable and I think they might revise that thinking as unnecessary.  Americans aren't terribly suspicious of furriners (at that point) as long as they have money and speak English well. That the post-war (WWII) fear of foreign agents would probably not apply to a foreign born 20 year old in 1985.  Hard to imagine "investment" in Paige or Henry as "sleeper agents" in the CIA, FBI or State Department "paying off" for decades ... and who's to say that either of them would be happy working at some assignment for 20 years rather than having a "real life" ... following their bliss ... etc.  Better Paige should go to medical school (public health and/or epidemiology) and Henry become a (forensic) accountant.... living lives of "quiet desperation" 

[Umbelina]

Second  generation spies in the USA will always be valuable.  As long as their parents were not exposed.  For all we know, there could be some here now.  American citizenship and being native born, is going to clear a lot of security checks, or would back then.  Instead of recruiting a low level FBI secretary?  They could be an FBI agent, or a Senator, or have top secret clearance at weapons plants, etc. etc.

The problem is, Philip has nearly exposed them a few times now, and, IMO, to Moscow, seems unstable and certainly not a rule-following obedient soldier.   The main problem I can see Center having with Elizabeth is that she is too influenced by Philip, now that she's "in lurve" with her KGB partner.  Her main attraction for them would probably be her willingness and enthusiasm for bringing Paige into the fold.

Kimmie will be off to college soon, where they could arrange a Don Juan more appropriate to her age, who WOULD have sex, thereby solidifying the honey trap method.  However, unless she chooses a college near home, and lives at home, she's really not very useful to them for much longer.

Realistically, both Philip and Elizabeth are reaching the end of their "honey trap" days.  Yes, they both look good, but especially for women spies?  Younger attracts more men easier.  I'm thinking of longer term planning for Center.  She's at least 43 now on the show.  She's got a few more years doing that at best.  A guy can do that much longer, but Philip is obviously no longer reliable.  So, what do they choose to do here?

My guess is something will resolve this, the FBI will catch them, or the KGB will neutralize at least Philip, remove him, or end him.  Or we'll get the romantic one dies so the other may live story.  Philip and Elizabeth would both be valuable training more to-be-embedded spies as well.  Do they accelerate the training of Paige?  That would be my guess.  Does she freak?  Maybe.

 

We shall see....

Edited November 6, 2017 by Umbelina

[SusanSunflower]

My original speculation was that "something" (many possibilities) would make Phillip go walkabout and that much/most of the final season would be Elizabeth trying to "bring him in" from the cold ... if Philip would have a child in tow was a variable, which?   Phillip and Henry versus Elizabeth and Paige .... it's comic book but it could be edge of the chair suspenseful and placing duo v. duo could lead to shifting loyalties and questions of who is loyal and who is in jeopardy from whom.   It's a bit too "cinematic" but it could be fun in terms of forcing these characters (who are fairly closed off and careful about how and what they communicate) to come clean and face brass tacks -- with Claudia and Gabriel playing bad mother and good father in cameos. 

My guess -- and I'm happy to be proven wrong -- is that given the current Russia-phobia (which I do not share -- business as usual) the production may hew closer to character driven narrative (since everything else becomes a screaming match -- look at the American coverage of recent WWII anniversaries and the 1917 revolution and -- god help us all -- the 2018 World Cup - don't get me started!).   I genuinely hope they pull off a satisfying and thrilling final season, but -- my observation -- is that many shows these days get a "lease on life" because they do "well enough" when in fact, not only is the final trajectory unclear, they are dealing with burnt out and/or newbie characters no one has bonded to.    It's a long season and it's a tumultuous historical period so I have NO DOUBT it will be worthwhile and interesting ... given the contentious nature of viewership, there's no safe storyline.  (I liked the Soprano's "ambiguous" ending -- which wasn't ambiguous to me in the slightest ... it made the local headlines, and then the FBI moved in and shut down the story -- I had increasingly grown to loathe Tony Soprano and the mudflat stink of decay that surrounded him).  YMMV.  

I wouldn't mind if P&E left the kids to fend for themselves and decided to decamp to some Ice Station Zebra ...  Regardless of whether I "like" or feel satisfied by the ending, I will still miss them and looking forward to their further adventures. 

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, SusanSunflower said:

Hard to imagine "investment" in Paige or Henry as "sleeper agents" in the CIA, FBI or State Department "paying off" for decades ... and who's to say that either of them would be happy working at some assignment for 20 years rather than having a "real life" ... following their bliss ... etc.  Better Paige should go to medical school (public health and/or epidemiology) and Henry become a (forensic) accountant.... living lives of "quiet desperation" 

Yeah, really Paige and Henry (and whatever other kids are out there) are basically just Americans that the KGB sees as having an obvious point for recruitment--their parents are Russian spies. The ideal situation would be, for instance, Henry growing up to be an American Kim Philby, presumably. But there's a lot of steps between Henry having parents he doesn't even know are Russian to Henry becoming a spy as loyal as Gregory and also getting some great job. From Moscow the whole thing probably looks a lot easier--they have the parents, the parents have kids...why wouldn't the kids be on board too? Maybe the kids would even consider themselves Russians because they in some ways are! But of course, it's not necessarily that easy.

 

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Realistically, both Philip and Elizabeth are reaching the end of their "honey trap" days. 

But not all spy operations are honey traps that rely on hot young and sexy.