Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[superloislane]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

It's not like people are "picking sides" in this Emma/Killian situation

Except they are on this board. Objectively, Hook's actions are far worse and require more criticism and yet all I see is 'I can't believe Emma looked in his chest! Why couldn't Emma see how angsty he was (despite him always being angsty)? Why did she put his stuff in a box?'. I'm not seeing much if any criticism of Hook, in fact I keep seeing 'poor Hook he's eaten up with guilt and shame. He's realistic and relatable. It's really all Emma's fault since this whole commitment issue wouldn't be there if she hadn't brought him the ring.' Those are pretty much quotes. So it really is ignoring one side of the story.

It bugs me because I've seen people on this board rightfully complaining that this show makes telling a secret look worse than murder and then I see this where by the amount of criticism expressed at each character you'd think Emma looking in a chest is considered worse than Hook hiding a secret of a murder. It's clearly double standards.

[Shanna Marie]

Something else occurred to me about how the perspective in all this is skewed: We have access to information that Emma doesn't have. As far as I can recall, the last time David was antagonistic to Hook in Emma's presence was back in 3B after the kiss curse revelation. Since then, all the nastiness has been behind her back, and I doubt Hook tattled. The relationship we've seen is David taking it out on Hook whenever he's stressed or upset, questioning Hook's worthiness for Emma, declaring himself in opposition to Hook being with Emma, and criticizing Hook, in between occasional moments of public bonding, in spite of all the things Hook has done for Emma and her family, right up to a couple of days ago when David was treating Hook like the scum of the earth even after Hook's sacrifice, return from the dead, and that public hug. The relationship Emma has seen was David being wary of Hook at first, but then realizing his value, trusting him, working with him to help Emma, getting his intervention when the Charmings were having difficulty with Emma, being upset at Hook's death, going to the Underworld to save him, and hugging him when he returned from the dead. So, Emma's perspective is going to be very different. She sees a growing bond of trust and respect that will surely result in forgiveness. Hook sees an erratic relationship where he never knows how David is going to see him from one day to the next, no matter what he does, and any respect he shows may be totally gone the next time David is tired or stressed and thinks Hook has so much as put a toe over the line. And we've seen what Hook sees, so we know he's not totally wrong to be afraid.

As for whether the snooping is the worst thing ever, the dispute between Hook and Emma really isn't about the murder. She knows he killed in the past and has made some peace with that because he's changed. What she's mad about is that he violated the trust between them by not coming to her and talking to him. But she was also violating the trust between them by going through his stuff. When he was trying to talk to her about what he was afraid of, she didn't listen and walked away. He's at fault for the initial problem, but she also bears some fault for it escalating the way it did.

[Curio]

@superloislane, I've seen numerous posts where Killian's actions were also criticized, but as is the nature of message boards, a few well-written posts can sometimes be overshadowed by longer, ongoing threads dissecting Emma's actions. It might seem like Emma is getting more heat at the moment, but that also might be because the board already exhausted all topics regarding Hook and the murder after his episode with Robert aired. There was that entire week before the proposal where Hook was getting a ton of heat from everyone. Once the next episode airs, the discussions will shift again. It's the ebb and flow of online debating.

[superloislane]

Sorry everyone!

I'm pretty sure my ranting is now over.

[Rumsy4]

Also, nobody's saying Hook murdering Robert was okay. That was not the crux of the "fight" between Emma and Hook. It was framed as though it was about trust. That's why the discussion has centered around that for the most part.

[Curio]

8 minutes ago, superloislane said:

I'm pretty sure my ranting is now over.

 

Hey, rant away! I rant all the time. Different opinions lead to more interesting discussions. :)

[Camera One]

There are so many generalizations about couplings on this show... for example, how Swan Queen and Swan Fire fans cared more about Regina and Neal than Emma (which I also think is unfair), and I think it would be easy to conclude from this week's discussion on this heavy CS board that many of those fans care more about Hook than Emma.  This is the first time where that has really shown through.  But I think there has also been a lot of other posters who were much more balanced in their judgments (most of the posts in the episode thread actually do not take side at all), and even some who clearly sympathesize more with Emma than Hook.

I still maintain that this is a typical contrived "misunderstanding" straight out of a soap opera.  The proposal scene for example.  I think there is a lot of postulating... there is no evidence that Emma was snooping.  Maybe she found something that belonged to Hook and wanted to put it in his sea chest.  It was ridiculous that she would have the ring out of the box in hand as she ran down the stairs.   I actually didn't get a sense from the performance that Hook was drunk to the point that he was incapacitated.  The conversation itself was straight out of "Days of Our Lives".  Hook goes, "I have something to tell you" and then he never gets the chance.  But the thing is - he DID have the chance.  He could have, and have done so on occasion in the past I think, said, no, you might not say yes if you knew this.  

The "break-up" scene in "Page 23" was so hard to take seriously after Emma gave the ring back to Hook that I just don't take it seriously.  This is one of those scenarios like eggbaby or the Author subplot that took me so out of the story that all I could see were the puppet strings.  

The thing that gets me is even the Writers have not worked out the mental reasoning for Hook and Emma's positions.  I mean, the Writers said she "would like to believe" that Emma noticed Hook's odd behavior.  Shouldn't they know?  I mean, this type of thing should NOT be left to the imagination if they are writing words coming out of these characters' mouths.  That is another reason why I can't be bothered to care that much either way.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

45 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The thing that gets me is even the Writers have not worked out the mental reasoning for Hook and Emma's positions.

That's the real problem. The writers didn't dig any deeper than "ooh, a proposal would be all angsty if it happened while he was keeping the secret" and "ooh, her giving back the ring would be big and dramatic." Meanwhile, the viewers are taking this in context of the characters, their situation, their past behavior, etc. That's where Emma is at a disadvantage because of the way she tends to get written. Because the only thing they know how to write about her is "walls," she's the queen of hiding things from Hook to protect herself and him or making unilateral decisions that affect him without bringing him in on them. That makes her come across as a bit hypocritical for her to completely lose it, give back the ring, and walk off when she catches him doing the same thing. She may have decided earlier in the season that she was done hiding things from him, but that doesn't quite give her the grounds to get on her high horse and say that "we don't hide things from each other" the first time she catches him at it. He's also never reacted as strongly as she did here to all the times she's hidden things from him rather than working together. The closest he's come to even looking like a "we're done" was when she turned him into a Dark One and he flipped out because she lied about controlling him with the sword or when she was in Dark One mode and trying to lure him into evil and he said he wasn't that man anymore and walked away (which made no sense in context of what was really going on because she she had no reason to try to lure him into evil at that time, unless maybe she was testing whether the memory block worked). The woman who turned him into a Dark One against his will, then tried to control him with the sword while lying about doing so, and then wiped his memory so she could fix things on her own without including him, doesn't have a lot of room to gripe at him about hiding something from her and not working together with her to fix it. She owes him a massive amount of slack. This made her look like she was giving up on him at the first snag.

On the other hand, he's a big boy and could have sucked it up and told her he wished she hadn't found the ring because he wasn't ready to propose and then told her the truth. He could have left her a note before heading out to go find himself with Nemo. She would have understood. He was willing to leave her a voice mail that he thought would make her hate him, so why wouldn't he have left a voice mail now? That was just contrived drama.

And that's not even getting into the murder issue, which, as I've said, is way above these writers' difficulty level or willingness to delve into. It should be a real issue on both sides. I would think that most people wouldn't want to deal with it. Leaving town to make a fresh start with people he hadn't harmed might be the best thing for Hook to get over his self-loathing and move on with his life. But they're hampered by the precedent set with the REC, where the characters don't have a lot of room to react to this when they're best buds with Regina, who murdered Snow's father, murdered many of their friends, and tried to murder them, and then there's Hook's guilt compared to the REC issue of Graham, which apparently doesn't bother Regina.

[Curio]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I mean, the Writers said she "would like to believe" that Emma noticed Hook's odd behavior.  Shouldn't they know?  I mean, this type of thing should NOT be left to the imagination if they are writing words coming out of these characters' mouths. 

 

The writers like to believe these characters are wild animals they can barely tame, but if they wanted Hook to call Emma before getting on the Nautilus, they had full control to do that. It's one thing as a writer to say, "No, I can't write that breakup scene because so-and-so character would have to act out of character." In that sense, the characters can sometimes take a life of their own and the writer saying "would like to believe" can make sense. But TS;TW show time and again that they don't care about continuity or characterization, so it really doesn't make sense.

Quote

I actually didn't get a sense from the performance that Hook was drunk to the point that he was incapacitated.

I didn't get the sense Hook was incapacitated, but I definitely bought the I'm-fully-in-control-of-my-actions-but-my-mind-isn't-entirely-in-control-of-my-mouth buzzed vibes. But maybe I'm too much of an alcoholic to know the detailed levels of inebriation...

[Olivia Y]

22 hours ago, Curio said:

No. Couples who don't respect each other go through each other's stuff all the time.

Yeah that sentiment came off as really weird to me, like...boundary issues weird.

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

I mean, the Writers said she "would like to believe" that Emma noticed Hook's odd behavior.  

What an odd thing to say. It's not like these are real people whose motives you can't discern, these are characters you created! You should know exactly what their motives are even if you don't want the audience to know (if that's what they meant to convey, they should've answered the question differently). No wonder it's so confusing trying to read these characters, the people who created them can't even tell where they're coming from.

[Shanna Marie]

On 4/1/2017 at 2:04 PM, Curio said:

I didn't get the sense Hook was incapacitated, but I definitely bought the I'm-fully-in-control-of-my-actions-but-my-mind-isn't-entirely-in-control-of-my-mouth buzzed vibes.

He was functional, probably not legal to drive, but not quite reeling, definitely not thinking quickly, which is why it's hard to blame him too much for not being able to think of what to say and how to say it on the spot. Sober, he might have been able to say that he had something he needed to discuss with her first. Drunk, he just went with the flow because he couldn't think of what else to do. That doesn't get him off the hook (no pun intended) for not coming clean the next day.

But now that I've beat that horse to death, buried it, exhumed it, beat it some more, sent it to the Underworld, beat it again some more, and then brought it back to life for more beating, how about another topic?

We had yet another muddling of the soulmates/person you love most/true love thing in this episode, with Henry Sr. going to the arrow that shows the person you love most as a way of helping Regina find Robin again. But Robin and Regina were soulmates. They'd never met then. She hadn't even seen his face. She chose not to meet him because she wanted her revenge more. I don't see how that would have counted as the person she loved most. I'm also not sure how the arrow was supposed to work. Skewering the person you love wouldn't be so great.

I tend to think of "soulmates" as being people who are suited for each other. They have the potential to have a good relationship, but it's up to them to make it work. The pixie dust worked like a magical eHarmony, factoring in their interests, goals, values, etc., and measuring them on compatibility to show the best match. The problem is, I don't feel like the show ever really showed this with Robin and Regina. You'd think that soulmates would have been drawn to each other, even if they didn't know they were soulmates, but Regina wasn't interested in Robin until she saw the tattoo. We never saw them having much in common with each other.

But here's a thought: what if Regina felt that kissing Wish!Robin was like kissing a picture because Robin was the soulmate of her Evil Queen side? When the pixie dust was used, it was before he met Marian, so that Robin would have been a lot more like Wish!Robin. If that's the case, then if Regina had split herself before Robin died, then maybe she wouldn't have been interested in real Robin, while her Evil side would have been more interested. And that's why the Evil Queen and Wish Robin were more compatible, and why Regina wasn't that interested until she saw the tattoo. She was trying to force the issue, like when someone you respect tells you that you're perfect for someone, and you try to make yourself be interested. There was some attraction and interest because of the Evil Queen part of her, but if she'd never seen that tattoo, she'd have never felt like she was missing anything while being around him.

[Shanna Marie]

7 hours ago, superloislane said:

No, when Emma asks him how he could burn the memories the first thing he says is that he was ashamed and scared of losing her, she asks him how he could possibly think that and then he talks about facing her parents, so it's not just her interpretation - he told her he was afraid of losing her because of this secret. Just like he said in his conversation with Archie in the previous episode "She's not going to want to marry me", what was implied by him looking at the ring when he found out about David's father and the reason he was getting drunk before going to tell Emma. The secret was entirely framed around him being afraid Emma wouldn't want to marry him and would leave him because of it

 

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Hook said, "You tell me, how am I supposed to sit across the table from your mother and father, and look them in the eye, knowing what I've done?"

The second bit seemed to be the key thing. That's why he was trying to destroy the memories. That didn't have anything to do with not believing in Emma. Even if Emma had believed in him, wanted to marry him, he still wouldn't have been able to face her family. Emma had no way of knowing what he said to Archie -- unless it's like so much else on this show where apparently the characters read the scripts. And saying he wasn't sure she would want to marry him isn't the same as not being sure she would love him or forgive him. She can love him while realizing that marrying him wouldn't be a great idea. There's a chance that Emma would have to choose between her family and him. He'd be putting Emma in a very difficult situation.

I also think that being afraid someone can't forgive something this huge isn't a sign of not believing in a person's love. It's a lack of faith if you say "I was worried you wouldn't love me if you knew I got laid off from my job" or even "I was worried you wouldn't love me if you knew I blackmailed Rumple to get my hand back." But not being sure what response you'd get from "it turns out I murdered your grandfather" is a reasonable fear. It also has nothing to do with whether he loves her. In fact, he wouldn't be so worried if he didn't care.

Emma has reason to consider him a coward, but coming to the conclusion that he didn't love her doesn't really fit.

[KAOS Agent]

The problem with what the writers did here is that if Hook can't handle facing Emma's family because of his guilt, his only choices are to walk away from the relationship or get rid of the memory and keep the secret. Because if it's all framed with Hook being unable to deal with his actions and he doesn't want to put Emma in a difficult position, then they can't have a relationship. If Hook walks away, presumably he'd tell Emma why so the secret would out and both Emma & Hook get hurt or I suppose he could just abandon her without telling her why and then he's a first class asshole. Keeping the secret puts him right into the same position people are constantly complaining about with regards to Regina killing Graham and not confessing to Emma about it.  Things can be forgiven, but not knowing puts a different spin on the relationship. 

Getting rid of the memories was actually a good solution except for the part where it's the wrong thing to do. Under normal circumstances, it really would be the only solution, but the Charmings don't have real feelings or thoughts, so nobody will even remember it or mention it the day after he returns.

[Camera One]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Hook said, "You tell me, how am I supposed to sit across the table from your mother and father, and look them in the eye, knowing what I've done?"

EMMA: Easy.  We never sit at tables together.  Since we're running from death 99% of the time, you never actually have to look them in the eye.

[Shanna Marie]

46 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

The problem with what the writers did here is that if Hook can't handle facing Emma's family because of his guilt, his only choices are to walk away from the relationship or get rid of the memory and keep the secret.

I guess one way out might be for him to confess, them to forgive, and then they all pour that memory into a dreamcatcher and burn it together, resetting things for all of them, but all of them participating and agreeing to it.

But, in general, I think the writers overstretched themselves with this plot because there's no believable way out of it that doesn't also contradict the way they've already shown the characters reacting to similar (or worse) things.

[KingOfHearts]

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But, in general, I think the writers overstretched themselves with this plot because there's no believable way out of it that doesn't also contradict the way they've already shown the characters reacting to similar (or worse) things.

Regina killed Graham, Snow's father, and Henry's grandfather. Snow using her an example of villains receiving forgiveness was too appropriate.

[Rumsy4]

This plot really does ruin Captain Swan. If this secret had come out in say, S4, then it might have been more believably addressed. David was already hot and cold with Hook. He also got to kill him in the storybook AU. Then S5 happens and Hook consistently acts in a noble and heroic manner, and gets cut with Excalibur saving Snow. Dark Hook sets it back, but he was forced into it, and he makes up for it by dying, getting tortured by Hades, and ultimately being sent back by Zeus. A lot a water under the bridge to heal the wound.

But to introduce this OOC retcon this late in the game, and all the secrets and lies between Emma and Hook, and with potential cancellation looming over them is mind boggling. If this was a longer running show, this would be when Hook and Emma broke up and Hook went off sailing to deal with things. One or two seasons later, he can come back and reconcile with everyone.

[Camera One]

From the way the last episode ended, the message I'm getting from the Writers is that all is forgotten and all that's left is the romance.  Hook made a swoonworthy declaration of love on the shell phone, Emma's heart melted, and when they reunite, they will hug it out and everything will be A-ok.  David knows, so that "tension" has been released and he has gone back to bed (literally).  The Writers didn't intend this to have any serious consequences.  They don't remember what happened 3 episodes ago, so why should anyone else?  

[daxx]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

From the way the last episode ended, the message I'm getting from the Writers is that all is forgotten and all that's left is the romance.  Hook made a swoonworthy declaration of love on the shell phone, Emma's heart melted, and when they reunite, they will hug it out and everything will be A-ok.  David knows, so that "tension" has been released and he has gone back to bed (literally).  The Writers didn't intend this to have any serious consequences.  They don't remember what happened 3 episodes ago, so why should anyone else?  

I was fully expecting that given TSTW. They set up these traumatic events then wrap it up with a kiss or a hug.

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, daxx said:

I was fully expecting that given TSTW. They set up these traumatic events then wrap it up with a kiss or a hug.

Only A&E end murdering one's father with a kiss or hug with the murderer.

[Camera One]

8 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Only A&E end murdering one's father with a kiss or hug with the murderer.

Blood is always thicker than water, especially when you shed it yourself.

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

This plot really does ruin Captain Swan. If this secret had come out in say, S4, then it might have been more believably addressed. David was already hot and cold with Hook. He also got to kill him in the storybook AU. Then S5 happens and Hook consistently acts in a noble and heroic manner, and gets cut with Excalibur saving Snow. Dark Hook sets it back, but he was forced into it, and he makes up for it by dying, getting tortured by Hades, and ultimately being sent back by Zeus. A lot a water under the bridge to heal the wound.

Yeah, there's just too much weirdness there, and no good way to work it out. It's weird to marry the person who killed your grandfather or to accept the person who killed your father into the family. But then on the other hand, they're buddies with Regina, who killed Snow's father. On yet another hand, Hook has done far more good than harm to this family. David has killed him. Hook has died saving them all. So they look rather ungrateful if they can't forgive the guy who's done so much for them for something he did so far in the past, before they even knew him. And then they threw in the dynamic with Emma, where apparently the murder itself didn't bother her, but she's instead mad because he was afraid to tell her about it, and she breaks the engagement, but then feels like he gave up on her when he disappeared. Except we knew he hadn't. And now that part is probably going to be an instant reset, where everything's all okay now that she got the shell call, so they'll never address the fact that she and her family immediately jumped to the worst possible conclusion about him based on very little evidence and with no effort whatsoever to give him the benefit of the doubt. She only learned that he hadn't abandoned her because she was carrying his stuff out to the shed. That's pretty cold and doesn't bode well for their future together. If she'd been mad about the murder and then he did something heroic to make up for it, I think I could buy it. It's really hard for me to buy the relationship when she thinks so little of his feelings for her.

Season 4 really would have worked, and then would have given them all the Dark One and Underworld stuff as a way of rebuilding and fixing things. But for them to have gone through all that and she's still able to believe that he didn't love her, that's not much of a relationship.

[Camera One]

Quote

 so they'll never address the fact that she and her family immediately jumped to the worst possible conclusion about him based on very little evidence and with no effort whatsoever to give him the benefit of the doubt.

We have no idea what conclusion they jumped to.  Henry had practically no lines as he listened to his music player.  Snow had practically no lines since the writer decided she'd be the comic relief drunk.  David didn't have a line about the issue of Hook leaving.  None of them were given dialogue directly with Emma about Hook's departure.  None of them had a scene together where they could talk about the situation without Emma there.

The only person who got to say anything about it was Regina.  She was the one who encouraged Emma to tell her all about that no-good pirate, and she was the only who had a one-to-one conversation with Emma at the bar.  It is interesting that after her evil half was redeemed, she didn't say anything reassuring.

But at the same time, when someone you love is hurting about the departure of a loved one, would you really start defending the person who left, even if you hope on the inside that they'd come back?  You have no idea if they will or not.  Right now, who they are most concerned about is Emma, and that makes sense to me.  I'm not saying the writing is good (because the Writers are clearly choosing which characters they want to feature and which they do not, and refusing to flesh out the scenario they themselves created) but I'm also not going to be all outraged on Hook's behalf (due to his immense internal guilt, it also makes sense that he would not be offended one bit).

Edited April 8, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

17 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Right now, who they are most concerned about is Emma, and that makes sense to me.  

If that's the case, then all they did was to reinforce her perpetual abandonment issues by agreeing that even her True Love would abandon her (if they even know Hook and Emma are that). It's not a question of defending Hook (which doesn't mean they're taking his side), but of not reinforcing her negative mindset. There's a way to be supportive without bashing the "ex" prematurely. 

36 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

She only learned that he hadn't abandoned her because she was carrying his stuff out to the shed. That's pretty cold and doesn't bode well for their future together.

Pretty much. It really makes it seem like she only cares about Hook when he's being uber-supportive. If he's not, then she jumps to the worst possible conclusions about him. Their relationship revolves around her.

All the romantic relationships in the Show are skewed towards one partner. It's usually the women who end up being the "important" one, except in the case of Rumbelle, where the roles are reversed.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

It's the day after.  I'm assuming their main message is "We're here for you."  Except even that is speculation because who the hell knows what any of the animatronics are thinking.  Even the Writers don't know.  If you asked, they'd probably say something like "I'd like to hope that..." whatever.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

If that's the case, then all they did was to reinforce her perpetual abandonment issues by agreeing that even her True Love would abandon her (if they even know Hook and Emma are that). It's not a question of defending Hook (which doesn't mean they're taking his side), but of not reinforcing her negative mindset. There's a way to be supportive without bashing the "ex" prematurely.

Yeah, wouldn't it have been more supportive to encourage her not to think the worst? "I'm sure there's another explanation. You know what he's done for you, how many portals he's jumped through to reach you. Surely he wouldn't abandon you completely. I mean, the guy died for you. Maybe he just went away for a little while to clear his head and let things cool down. He's probably just spending time with his brother." Or, in this town, "Nemo may have kidnapped him again/are we sure there's not a new villain in town that did something with him/are we sure that what Leroy saw wasn't a glamour meant to fool you into giving up on Hook?"

That's generally the way conversations around a breakup or a ghosting have gone when I've had them (on both sides of the equation): "He hasn't called, maybe he doesn't like me." "No! He's probably just really busy. Remember, he's an accountant and it's April. Remember the last time you were worried, and it turned out he had his wisdom teeth out. You know he's been under a lot of stress." You don't start bashing the ex until you're absolutely sure that he really did something awful and is gone for good. You definitely don't start bashing the ex the day after he leaves. When the ex is also your friend and you know that he deserves some credit, you really have to find a balance. You can remind the friend of the good things the maybe ex has done without casting blame on the friend or seeming to side with the ex.

"That dirty pirate just up and left you, good riddance," isn't appropriate friend support on the first day when there wasn't an explicit breakup, or when the person you're talking to was the one who did the breaking up or the breaking up-like action (like giving the ring back).

Though it is true that we have absolutely no idea how much any of them know or what they really said, since most of it happened offscreen. We don't know if Snow even knew why they were having a girls' night out. We just saw David being disappointed. But we also didn't see anyone say a single word in Hook's favor.

[Camera One]

33 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, wouldn't it have been more supportive to encourage her not to think the worst? "I'm sure there's another explanation. You know what he's done for you, how many portals he's jumped through to reach you.

Would Emma be open to hearing that line of talk?  Or were her walls already up and she was readying herself so she wouldn't be hurt further?  We have no idea.  The characterization is not consistent enough for us to know this either way.  Maybe she was feeling guilty herself and she wouldn't want people to keep bringing up everything that Hook had done for her.  When comforting someone, I think one needs to think about who that person is and what helps them.

As for Regina's comment, I chalk that up to her having no idea how to be a friend.  Because that's HER coping mechanism.  She villifies the person who is the cause of the hurt, and that makes her feel better.  She did try to be all Archie and bombard Emma with questions about how she's feeling, which was also not the right tact.  I do think she was trying her best, though.

All in all, I think the Writers were focused on how to get those special tears out of Emma (apparently, from a complete stranger) and how to create an "entertaining" B plot, not what makes sense from the characters' standpoint.

Edited April 8, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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As for Regina's comment, I chalk that up to her having no idea how to be a friend.  Because that's HER coping mechanism.  She villifies the person who is the cause of the hurt, and that makes her feel better.  She did try to be all Archie and bombard Emma with questions about how she's feeling, which was also not the right tact.  I do think she was trying her best, though.

I agree. Regina was having an Anya moment. 

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Would Emma be open to hearing that line of talk?  Or were her walls already up and she was readying herself so she wouldn't be hurt further?  We have no idea.  The characterization is not consistent enough for us to know this either way.  Maybe she was feeling guilty herself and she wouldn't want people to keep bringing up everything that Hook had done for her.  When comforting someone, I think one needs to think about who that person is and what helps them.

Am I the only one who finds the entire conflict confusing? We haven't been given any real conclusion to what Emma is thinking. We have her impulsively chastising Hook, then reacting later after by telling herself to "move on". (Under the influence of alcohol, but not drunk. Much like with Hook.) We don't know if it's abandonment issues or what. We can interpret it in several different ways, but the show has not been clear at all. Now the underlying emotions are rendered moot because Emma and Hook now both have the same goal. The conflict was resolved by artificial means. (Shellphone and Gideon.) 

Edited April 8, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

33 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Am I the only one who finds the entire conflict confusing?

No, though I'll admit that I'm probably overreacting and bringing baggage to it because they managed to combine the two romance tropes that will have me hurling books across the room at great force. I used to have to read to judge romances for an industry award, and this is two of the things that always drove me mad.

First, there's the interrupted confession trope -- one person in the relationship has something he needs to tell the other person (and it usually is the man). He starts to tell, usually by saying something like, "There's something I need to tell you." She then does something to divert the conversation, usually by incorrectly identifying what he wants to talk about and answering as though she knows, when she's actually totally wrong. Sometimes she won't even let him talk because she assumes she knows what he's talking about and doesn't think it matters. Then when she finds out another way, she's furious and feels lied to and betrayed.

Then there's the leaping to the worst conclusion trope -- one person in the relationship learns something about the other, completely out of context, and instantly assumes the worst, not considering anything she knows about his personality and history. Then she learns the truth, and all is well. It's okay because the thing she was mad about wasn't true, after all, but the fact that she was so quick to assume the worst about him never comes up, and he's not allowed to be hurt or angry that she thought so little of him.

So here we get two tropes in one -- she interrupts the confession (which he still should have made, but she made it so much harder by assuming he was talking about the proposal), then she leaps to the worst conclusion about him. He probably won't even learn that she only heard his call because she was in the process of taking his stuff to the shed because she figured he was gone for good. But we'll be expected to think that their relationship is perfectly back on track once he gets back. And I won't be able to because I'll be imagining him having to walk on eggshells for the rest of his life and constantly having to prove himself to her because if he's not right in front of her being perfect, she gives up on him.

[KAOS Agent]

Quote

I won't be able to because I'll be imagining him having to walk on eggshells for the rest of his life and constantly having to prove himself to her because if he's not right in front of her being perfect, she gives up on him.

That seems an awful lot like projecting Hook's issues onto Emma. They had a fight and Hook's immediate response is to leave town to become a better man because Hook hates himself and can't believe that Emma would love him after all the evil he's done. Emma simply doesn't want him to lie about really big things like murder. That doesn't require the dramatic option of traveling the realms to learn from Captain Nemo, but there's self loathing Hook packing a bag and planning to leave town and his girlfriend with abandonment issues rather than taking a day to think and then talking it through with Emma. 

Emma's in danger and has massive issues with people leaving her, but the solution he came up with to fix their problems was to take off. He talked to Nemo, packed a bag (one that did not include the items from his chest, so he was planning to leave them behind) and boarded a ship that everyone in town knew was going to depart that evening. There was nothing suspicious about his leaving. The audience knew he'd changed his mind, but every one of Hook's actions prior to that point were made by a Hook who was planning to leave. I don't understand how Emma is supposed to have this super special knowledge to understand that while Hook was originally going to leave, he didn't really do it and that Gideon is responsible. In fact, since leaving was Hook's initial response to what happened, Emma isn't really all that wrong for believing he'd done it. Add a little alcohol, guilt, confusion, sadness and a lifetime's worth of self worth and abandonment issues and you get a woman who isn't exactly rational when she questions everything about the relationship and why he'd left. None of this involves Emma expecting Hook to be perfect or never leaving her side. It just involves a woman who is devastated after a big fight when her boyfriend, who'd just told her he can't handle living with what he'd done to her and her family, leaves town instead of sticking around to work it out with her.

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

In fact, since leaving was Hook's initial response to what happened, Emma isn't really all that wrong for believing he'd done it.

He didn't mean to leave her forever. I donno why it's hard to differentiate abandonment from taking a break to work on his issues after Emma broke off their engagement. Emma asked him to go work on his issues, and is it wrong of him to seek out a mentor-figure like Nemo to help him with that? The fact that he'd left his most precious possessions behind was a sign that he was coming back, and not just to pick up his things from the tool shed. Emma's ultimatum was vague. Who know what she had in mind when she kicked him out of her house (it's always been her house, even if it had been his original plan--sounds familiar?)? If Hook needs Emma's permission to leave Storybrooke for a short time at that point, that's messed up. 

And while we can headcanon that her abandonment issues came out in full force, there's little support for that in the episode. We don't know what she thought other than rapidly losing faith in Hook, dumping his stuff in the tool shed, and accusing him of giving up when things got tough--which is what she did herself. 

Hook actually changed his mind about leaving with Nemo to learn to forgive himself. That's actually in the episode. He didn't go through with it. He dealt with his fear, and decided to come back and work it out with Emma. Emma changed her mind after receiving actual proof that Hook hadn't left her. Hook's intentions are not equivalent to actions. That's the difference. 

ETA: All it needed to make it better was one scene at the end where Emma tried to reach out to Hook through her magic, coinciding with Ariel giving Hook her shellphone. That would bring their True Love connection back into focus, and show them both working through their issues to trust each other.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KAOS Agent]

Emma changed her mind about what? She thought he'd left like he'd planned. He changed his mind at the last second, but how was Emma to know that? Intent matters to Emma's point of view. Since his plan to leave was a real one, I don't understand why she's being castigated for believing that he would do something like that. Emma's sin here seems to be that she answered a phone before she could process anything other than that he was gone and it hurt. 

I also dislike this notion that True Love is the be all end all and a sign that you shouldn't doubt your significant other and their feelings for you. Rumpel and Belle have True Love according to this show and that relationship is a total dumpster fire. That's a pretty clear demonstration to Emma that True Love ain't all it's cracked up to be.

[Rumsy4]

He didn't plan to leave her for ever. She believed he had left for good. I don't think I can explain this any further. 

[superloislane]

@KAOS Agent I couldn't like your posts enough!

17 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

And I won't be able to because I'll be imagining him having to walk on eggshells for the rest of his life and constantly having to prove himself to her because if he's not right in front of her being perfect, she gives up on him.

I don't understand this at all. What does thinking Hook leaving her when he was about to leave her in the first place and there's no real reason why she wouldn't think this, a reason why he'd have to walk on eggshells being perfect forever? He tried to kill her family one time and she still loved him.

10 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Who know what she had in mind when she kicked him out of her house (it's always been her house, even if it had been his original plan--sounds familiar?)? If Hook needs Emma's permission to leave Storybrooke for a short time at that point, that's messed up.

When did she kick him out of the house? All she said was 'until you're ready to work through things together, then we can talk' and then she was waiting for him to come home at the end. So when did she kick him out of the house? Literally nothing she said or did indicated that he wasn't welcome in their home anymore. And you're saying it's totally fine that Hook was about to leave Storybrooke without telling Emma and she should just accept that? What kind of a relationship is that?

6 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

He didn't plan to leave her for ever.

But for how long was he going to leave? How long does it take to forgive yourself? I doubt it's for a few days so it's at least a few weeks.

Edited April 9, 2017 by superloislane

[Curio]

8 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

I don't think I can explain this any further. 

I'll give it a try.

I have the unique experience of dealing with something similar to Hook and Emma's situation in real life. Obviously, magical realm-traveling submarines weren't involved, but there are some parallels. One of my family members (we'll call them X) has dealt with mental health issues their entire life, but for the most part, they've always kept their mental state under control. One of their coping mechanisms is to mentally block out traumatic memories from their past in order to deal with the present. When another family member randomly brought up how cruel X acted towards them decades ago before X was on proper medication, X freaked out and had a panic attack because they had blocked that memory away for so long to the point where they forgot it even happened. The rest of the family thought X wouldn't freak out as much as they did because we all kind of knew X could be a jerk in the past, but we had forgiven X in the present because they dealt with their mental condition by taking proper medication, going to therapy, and generally turning their life around. But X couldn't handle the guilt, and in the middle of the night, they took off to check into a mental health facility to deal with their pain. X didn't tell any of the family about this plan beforehand, but we did receive a phone call from X the next day explaining how they decided to deal with the issue on their own as they decided to receive professional care from someone they trusted. X ended up staying at this facility for a few days and then returned home, which ended up being the best option for their health. I was definitely worried that X had gone missing for a few hours, but there were so many methods we could have used to track them (cell phones, car license plates, Internet history, talking to neighbors, etc.) that I was more concerned about X's safety and what happened to them than I was about assuming they didn't love the family anymore or took off for good. 

So with Emma and Hook, because of my personal experience, it's hard for me to view Emma's actions as anything but robotic and lacking empathy. Whereas I would have been more concerned about Killian's safety and figuring out where he went if I were in Emma's position, Emma's main concern was about Killian leaving her, not doing anything to figure out where he went, and immediately packing away his belongings. I'm not saying Emma's reaction isn't normal, but it comes off slightly selfish when that's the only thing Emma thought. We needed to see Emma attempting to understand the situation from Killian's point of view, but the fact that she didn't even think about the possibility that Killian was in danger comes across as lacking empathy, especially when Storybrooke is notorious for villains and monsters lurking around every corner. There was nearly no effort on Emma's part to put herself in Killian's shoes and think about the situation through his lens, but Killian was able to view the situation perfectly from Emma's lens and recognize that she probably thought he abandoned her. That's where there's a relationship imbalance—Killian apparently understood Emma's core personality enough to recognize how Emma was feeling in that exact moment, but Emma apparently didn't understand Killian's core personality enough to recognize how Killian was feeling in that exact moment. That imbalance would have been okay in Season 4 when they first started dating, but these crazy kids were just thinking about getting engaged, so they should know each other like the back of their hands at this point. I just get the feeling that if Emma and Hook were to take one of those relationship game show quizzes where you have to write down what the other partner's favorite [insert category] is, Hook would ace it and Emma would write down a lot of incorrect answers. 

There was a lot of jumping to conclusions that needed to happen for the latest episode to work. Emma didn't try to talk out why Killian left or think rationally about why he might want to spend some time with his half-brother and father figure. I can give Emma some slack since she was the one who was emotionally hurt in the situation and thinking rationally is difficult, but then her family needed to come through for her and give her some hope and logical thinking skills. It's a really terrible episode structure to have one side of the relationship moving heaven and earth to get back to someone and being totally in tune with their True Love that they know exactly how they're feeling, but then have the other side of the relationship doing absolutely nothing to figure out where their True Love went, why they left, using no magical items to try and contact them (when there are so many canon magical objects available), and also being so out of tune with their True Love's emotional state that they were completely off the mark about how they were feeling. I don't know whose idea it was to frame the episode that way, but it automatically is going to make Emma come off worse than Hook, even though Hook is the one we're supposed to be angry at.

Quote

When did she kick him out of the house? All she said was 'until you're ready to work through things together, then we can talk' and then she was waiting for him to come home at the end.

 

When you physically hand someone back an engagement ring, many people would interpret that as being kicked out. If I gave an engagement ring back to my significant other, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they spent the night at their friend's house or at a hotel. That's why several of us found the scene where Emma was waiting for Hook to come home to be a little odd because she shouldn't have been all that surprised. For all Emma knew at that point, Hook could have been having a long talk with Nemo and drinking rum until 3:00 am discussing life. It wasn't until the next day that she found out more information.

Quote

And you're saying it's totally fine that Hook was about to leave Storybrooke without telling Emma and she should just accept that?

Without telling Emma? No, that's not fine. Hook leaving Storybrooke for a few days or few weeks to seek mentorship from his father figure and get his life back in order? Totally fine. We were never shown a scene where Hook called Emma to leave her a message or left her a note, but that's because we never got to that point in the narrative. If Killian had ultimately decided to leave for a few days or weeks, he would have called Emma before boarding the Nautilus. The writer of the episode basically confirmed that. I'd imagine we would have gotten a scene where Killian gives his bag of items to a crew member and says he needs to take care of something quickly before boarding, which is when Killian would call Emma and tell her about his plan before climbing the ladder down into the Nautilus. Just because it didn't happen on screen doesn't mean he wouldn't have done it—we also have to take into account his character and how he would realistically behave in that situation. Let's say I'm standing in line to buy a donut, but at the last second I realize that's not good for my diet, so I ditch the line and decide to not buy the donut. But then I overhear one of my good friends saying, "Well, I doubt they were going to pay for the donut anyways, they probably were just going to steal it because they don't have any money." Just because you don't visually see someone do something doesn't mean we jump to the worst possible conclusion about them, especially when that conclusion is out of character. And it would have been out of character for Hook to board the Nautilus without a last second phone call to Emma, so we have to go with what's in character for him and assume he would have left a voice mail about his plan before leaving. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

Your post is pretty fantastic @Curio.

1 hour ago, Curio said:

When you physically hand someone back an engagement ring, many people would interpret that as being kicked out

Exactly. Did Emma seriously expect Killian to work out how to forgive himself in a couple of hours when he'd been considering the extreme option of burning his memories? Piss poor writing is the real reason, but we have to deal with what's shown in canon.

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Killian apparently understood Emma's core personality enough to recognize how Emma was feeling in that exact moment, but Emma apparently didn't understand Killian's core personality enough to recognize how Killian was feeling in that exact moment. That imbalance would have been okay in Season 4 when they first started dating, but these crazy kids were just thinking about getting engaged

Pretty much. 

I'm not saying (nor are others, IMO) that Killian comes off smelling like roses in this situation. But of the two, he was definitely coming off as the more empathetic and understanding of the two. It's not satisfying when one partner's in charge of the wheel all the time. It was fine in the beginning of their relationship, but it's not satisfying at this stage.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Rumsy4

[superloislane]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

We were never shown a scene where Hook called Emma to leave her a message or left her a note, but that's because we never got to that point in the narrative. If Killian had ultimately decided to leave for a few days or weeks, he would have called Emma before boarding the Nautilus.

So even though there is absolutely nothing in the episode to support what you're saying, you're saying Hook would've left her a message to tell her he was leaving? (The writer said she HOPED he would, not that he would)

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Just because it didn't happen on screen doesn't mean he wouldn't have done it—we also have to take into account his character and how he would realistically behave in that situation.

Okay...

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Whereas I would have been more concerned about Killian's safety and figuring out where he went if I were in Emma's position, Emma's main concern was about Killian leaving her, not doing anything to figure out where he went, and immediately packing away his belongings. I'm not saying Emma's reaction isn't normal, but it comes off slightly selfish when that's the only thing Emma thought.

I imagine that Emma went looking for Hook after Leroy told her he left because she was concerned for his safety. Just because they didn't show it on screen doesn't mean that's not what she did - that would be a realistic reaction for her character wouldn't it? 

"There was nearly no effort on Emma's part to put herself in Killian's shoes and think about the situation through his lens, but Killian was able to view the situation perfectly from Emma's lens and recognize that she probably thought he abandoned her."

I couldn't seem to quote this for some reason. What lens is she supposed to see through? He went on board the Nautilus willingly and then it took off. Hook was able to know what Emma would think because he knew exactly how it looked meaning even he doesn't think there's a reason to think anything else.

[Curio]

1 hour ago, superloislane said:

So even though there is absolutely nothing in the episode to support what you're saying, you're saying Hook would've left her a message to tell her he was leaving? (The writer said she HOPED he would, not that he would)

 

 

There seems to be more canon supporting Hook would have called Emma than not. Hook managed to send a message out to Emma via Ariel's shell phone to let her know where he was just a few hours after he went missing, so if he was willing to call Emma on the shell phone, why wouldn't he be willing to call her on a regular phone if given the chance? There are also numerous times Hook has left Emma voice messages in the past. Hook called Emma twelve times when he tried to reach out to her in 4x08 when she got sucked into the Mirror World, he called her to warn the group about Hyde in 6x04, he called and left her multiple messages that got erased in 4x08, he called and left her a message when he was dealing with Elsa in 4x03... I think there's plenty of evidence to support Hook would reach out and call Emma when it's important.

Quote

I imagine that Emma went looking for Hook after Leroy told her he left because she was concerned for his safety. Just because they didn't show it on screen doesn't mean that's not what she did - that would be a realistic reaction for her character wouldn't it?

 

 

I can buy that. So if we can imagine Emma did this offscreen, then why can't we imagine Hook hypothetically calling Emma offscreen? But let's continue with the idea that Emma went looking for Hook after Leroy told her he left—wouldn't that lead Emma to ask more questions about why he left? Surely she would have noticed he left behind the Jolly Roger. Why did he choose to leave on the Nautilus? Was he forced onto the Nautilus like earlier this season? Did he just want to talk to Nemo and his half-brother? 

Quote

What lens is she supposed to see through? He went on board the Nautilus willingly and then it took off. Hook was able to know what Emma would think because he knew exactly how it looked meaning even he doesn't think there's a reason to think anything else.

 

 

Emma (or one of her "friends") could have tried to see it more through Killian's lens. "Why did Killian leave on the Nautilus? Why didn't he leave me a message? That's not like him. Where is he going? Why did he feel the need to leave Storybrooke? I did give him the ring back and told him that he needed to figure things out before we should talk again. Does he think that because I gave the ring back that I don't want anything to do with him? Is he drinking again? Is he as heartbroken as I am? Does he just need time for himself? Why did Hook want to join Nemo and leave behind the Jolly Roger? This can't be permanent if Hook left behind the Jolly Roger, all of his important belongings, and didn't bother to tell me his plan. Why did he leave behind Liam's ring? None of this makes sense. Maybe I'll send him a mirror message to let him know I'm mad at him for not dropping me a message before leaving." That line of thinking matches Emma's agreement to Hook about choosing to see the best in him, but for one random episode, the writers needed Emma to see the worst in him for "dramatic effect." Like most things on this show, it's just the writers manipulating the characters to achieve a plot need, even if it requires illogical thinking.

This might be a situation where we'll just have to agree to disagree since this is starting to go in circles. If you don't think it's a huge deal for someone to take a break and spend time for themselves after being broken up with, then you won't see Killian wanting to leave on the Nautilus as a huge deal. (As long as he dropped a message before he left.) If you think someone leaving town to become a better person as the same thing as ditching a relationship forever, then it's a bigger deal.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Curio

[superloislane]

5 minutes ago, Curio said:

So if we can imagine Emma did this offscreen, then why can't we imagine Hook hypothetically calling Emma offscreen?

I didn't say you couldn't imagine that - I'd like to think that. And I'm not saying you're wrong to think that at all! I was just pointing out how strange it is to suggest that even when there's nothing on screen showing Hook was going to leave a message you immediately believe he would have but you can't imagine Emma might have looked for him and instead you think she did nothing but accept the situation.

9 minutes ago, Curio said:

If you think someone leaving town to become a better person as the same thing as ditching a relationship forever, then it's a bigger deal.

I don't think he was ditching their relationship forever - far from. He was leaving to try to be better for Emma. The guy loves her like crazy. But I can be mad at Hook for thinking that Emma would leave him if she knew his secret even though she's never even thought about leaving him before and for thinking about leaving town and working on things by himself for what could be weeks when he knows his girlfriend's life is still in danger even though the thing Emma was mad about was him not coming to her and working through things together in the first place.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Emma (or one of her "friends") could have tried to see it more through Killian's lens.

I'm disappointed we didn't get another character in the girl's night out that could have came from a different perspective. In S1, Mary Margaret went on one with Ruby and Ashley. At the time, she was angsting over David, sort of like how Emma was with Hook. Ashley was telling her how miserable it was being in a relationship without actually getting to be around the man she loved. (Thomas had to work all the time.) That sparked a revelation in MM, and she realized being with David would always suck because he would have to constantly go back to Kathryn. While the situations are vastly different, I would have liked Emma to learn something from someone other than Gidsop. 

Talking about your break-up with your boyfriend over drinks with your mother and step-grandmother is really weird. A third party from the host of Offscreenville residents would have been more interesting. Heck, even Belle.

Edited April 9, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It was a deliberate choice to NOT come about it from a different perspective.  Snow was all about hope, so she could easily have encouraged Emma to have faith.  Regina could also have said she knows as a former villain that sometimes you run away but then you come back, and Hook will do the same.  Neither Snow nor Regina could say anything because we needed to be shocked that Aesop was actually Gideon stealing Emma's tears.  

Some new information has just come in.. Hook wrote a note but a seagull ate it.  And the only reason why Emma wanted the sea chest in the shed was because there was rotting seaweed stuck to it and it was beginning to smell.  If you watched more carefully, you would have seen these two things.

Edited April 9, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, superloislane said:

I don't think he was ditching their relationship forever - far from. He was leaving to try to be better for Emma. The guy loves her like crazy. But I can be mad at Hook for thinking that Emma would leave him if she knew his secret even though she's never even thought about leaving him before and for thinking about leaving town and working on things by himself for what could be weeks when he knows his girlfriend's life is still in danger even though the thing Emma was mad about was him not coming to her and working through things together in the first place.

But he didn't know or believe that her life was still in danger. No one was acting like Emma was in any danger or like Gideon was any threat. Since Emma's first fight with Gideon, she spent a day canoeing, then had time to be going through Hook's chest to find the ring, then was helping Regina with the Evil Queen and happy ending stuff, and after Hook left was digitizing files at the police station and then having a girls' night out. Charming spent a day investigating a 60-odd-year-old murder, with Hook along for the ride. Hook had bought a ring and was taking therapy sessions. At the time Hook boarded the Nautilus, no one believed that Emma was in danger, so it wasn't like his original plan to go work things out meant he was leaving Emma in the lurch while she was in terrible danger.

We can't really compare the speculation about what Hook would have done if he'd gone through with his plan to what Emma did do when he went missing. One is purely hypothetical -- we can't know what Hook would have done because he didn't do it. He didn't go through with his plan. He changed his mind before he boarded the Nautilus. On the other hand, whatever Emma did or didn't do, she did or didn't do, and it just happened offscreen. All of it's a guess, but it's a guess about what might have happened if Hook had made a different decisions vs. what Emma really did do that we don't know about. There's no way of knowing exactly what Hook might have done, but on Emma's side of the equation, she has his past behavior to judge from, and she knows he's crossed realms to be with her, multiple times. He was brought back to her by a god after he died. She knows he's willing to sacrifice his life for her. Why would she jump so quickly to the conclusion that he abandoned her for good and never loved her?

That's where I'm coming from on the idea that he'll have to walk on eggshells with her. She had to ignore almost everything she knew about him in order to reach the most negative conclusion about him, and she was wrong about him. She misjudged him badly. On the other hand, she was mad at him because he was afraid of how she would judge him -- and since she did judge him badly in a situation where she turned out to be wrong, he might kind of have been right to fear her reaction. The fact that he'll probably never know she gave up on him right away means any relationship they have going forward will have that crack in it. What will she do if he doesn't come home from the store after he runs out to get a gallon of milk? Will she assume he went out and got drunk or left her, and all the while, he's lying in a ditch after Sleepy fell asleep at the wheel and ran over him?

I really don't think this is what the writers intended to show. They were just trying to amp up the drama. But they should maybe have thought through the ramifications of what they were writing.

[superloislane]

43 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

But he didn't know or believe that her life was still in danger. No one was acting like Emma was in any danger or like Gideon was any threat.

Except they did believe her life was still in danger. Charming brought it up as a big worry of his to Hook "What if Gideon comes back stronger and kills Emma?" and Emma brought up the fact that Gideon was still out there when Snow mentioned planning the wedding and she said that she can't focus on anything else until he's dealt with and that "We're going to wait a while" which suggests that she and Hook have already discussed this. He definitely knew and still believed her life was still in danger. The characters always act like this when there's an active danger like when Snowing went for a walk on the beach without a care in the world when they knew that there was a woman walking around who wanted their baby and they even had a protection spell on their apartment.

43 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

What will she do if he doesn't come home from the store after he runs out to get a gallon of milk?

Well that's not a good comparison. They had a fight about trust and working together, she gave back the ring and she was told in no uncertain terms that he had walked onto the Nautilus of his own free will, had a bag (since I'd say both Snow and Leroy saw him with that bag) and it sailed away. But sure that's the same as going out to get a gallon of milk and not coming back...

 

43 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

She had to ignore almost everything she knew about him in order to reach the most negative conclusion about him, and she was wrong about him. She misjudged him badly.

And he ignored everything he knew about her to think she would leave him if she knew the truth and he misjudged her so badly that he went to great lengths including burning his own memories to make sure that didn't happen. So do you think she has to walk on eggshells and never ever get angry at him for anything because he might think she'll leave him?

Edited April 10, 2017 by superloislane

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 4/9/2017 at 11:36 PM, superloislane said:

(since I'd say both Snow and Leroy saw him with that bag)

Snow saw him with the bag.  We heard that Leroy saw him on the docks.  I don't think it was even clear if Leroy actually saw him board the sub or he just assumed that Hook did:

Quote

Emma: "We had a big fight about him hiding this, and I told him if he wasn't ready to trust me, that that we shouldn't talk for a while, so I guess he wasn't ready, because Leroy saw him on the docks, and he got on the Nautilus and just sailed away."

No mention of a bag.  There may or may not have been one, but the dialogue left it out.  We saw Hook on the Nautilus without the bag.  He didn't carry it on the ship.  So where was it?  On the dock?  If so, that might have been a big clue that he didn't leave willingly.  But since we never saw Emma go to the docks to look for him, or even heard that she checked out Leroy's story to be sure (cause he doesn't exaggerate, does he?) we will never know.  

So what if they had a big fight and Hook left the house and decided to go buy gallon of milk while he was out walking around and brooding anyway, and then disappeared?   She'd probably just believe Leroy when he says he 'saw him with a bag' (yeah, a bag of groceries) 'get into some villain's car' (but no mention that maybe he was forced into the car and kidnapped - like when Zelena did) - so he must have left her willingly and never loved her.

[Curio]

I was just randomly thinking about how much screen time Regina (oh, sorry, the Evil Queen) and Rumple got in 6A with their random love affair...and then that story line just dropped out of thin air. Why spend so much time on those two when it literally had no impact on Regina, Rumple, or Belle whatsoever?

[KingOfHearts]

1 minute ago, Curio said:

I was just randomly thinking about how much screen time Regina (oh, sorry, the Evil Queen) and Rumple got in 6A with their random love affair...and then that story line just dropped out of thin air. Why spend so much time on those two when it literally had no impact on Regina, Rumple, or Belle whatsoever?

Rumple also threatened to kill her. That went nowhere either.

[Curio]

13 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Rumple also threatened to kill her. That went nowhere either.

Rumple also threatened to kill Zelena. Is that going to go anywhere?

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Rumple also threatened to kill Zelena. Is that going to go anywhere?

He threatens to kill her on a regular basis. I still think, when the opportunity presents himself, he'll do it effortlessly. With Regina, it's more complicated because she is one of his pawns. He would only kill her if it really suited him. Zelena doesn't take his crap, hence she's useless to him.

Although, to be real, it's arbitrary who Rumple chooses to kill. Wish!Rumple was happy to kill Regina for Wish!Regina's actions, but Real!Rumple didn't want to kill Regina for the Evil Queen's. Now that I type that into a sentence, I see how confusing the clones can be, especially after you factor in all the alternate personalities manifested from the memory lobotomies. We've got Original!Rumple, Sparkly!Rumple, Mr. Gold, Clippy!Rumple, Bizarro!Rumple, and Wish!Rumple.

Edited April 11, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Kktjones]

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What's really strange (and pretty depressing) is that we might go the entirety of Season 6 with only one single episode that's primarily just a Emma/Hook solo operation. (The Cinderella episode, which is also the highest rated episode of Season 6.) How can you film 22 episodes where only one episode's A-plot focuses on the main couple of the show at the moment? And this is a show about True Love romance. You kind of have to wonder if that has impacted ratings as well. 

Quoting @Curio from the Ratings thread. I'm trying to figure out why they decided to pull back so hard on Emma & Hook. Yes, they had them move in together and it looks like they're working towards another engagement/wedding, but they have given them virtually no screen time together as a couple (I did a breakdown in a post awhile ago, but suffice to say they very rarely share more than one scene per ep). Being a CS fan and having GA family/friends that like Hook and CS, I always assumed they were very popular. They seem to be the focus of a lot of the media buzz around the show (articles often use CS photos & headlines to get clicks). However, I'm wondering if after the ratings drop in Season 5 TPTB determined they weren't popular, so have stopped giving them focus on the show. Or do they know they're popular so they try to drag out their milestones and just give people enough each episode to keep them coming back for more?

I do find it amusing how many anti-fans are blaming the bad ratings this season on CaptainSwan, given they have spent 50% of the episodes in separate realms and have barely had any scenes together. Heck, their engagement scene was tacked on in the last 2 minutes of an episode that had nothing to do with them. And it appears (spoiler):

Spoiler

their wedding episode won't even focus on them. Not to mention they then get separated right away in for the final 2 eps!

[KingOfHearts]

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I'm trying to figure out why they decided to pull back so hard on Emma & Hook.

It probably has to do with the fact going domestic is the logical next step in their relationship. The writers are terrified of anything remotely close to that. They'd rather give us cheap angst.

Edited April 11, 2017 by KingOfHearts