Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, Curio said:

Well, it's not like they totally went away from it, it's just that they focused on the relationships no one wanted to see. (Or they botched the stories.) Regina and Henry still get a ton of focus and the Season 4 and Season 5 finales were dedicated to them. 4B focused a lot on Mal and Lily's relationship and the stupid eggnapping stuff with the Charmings and Emma. 5B was a lot of Regina/Zelena/Cora drama. And now we have the Gideon/Rumple/Belle drama that seems to be taking over Season 6. 

Yep, all of those were about villains and their parents, or villains and their children.  For a hero and their father (Young David and his father), their total screentime together was about a minute.

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Curio said:

Well, it's not like they totally went away from it, it's just that they focused on the relationships no one wanted to see.

Mostly, they dropped Charming family relationships, and I suspect a lot of that has to do with the REC. The pivot came at the exact point that the show skipped letting us see the very first family dinner among the reunited Charmings in order to show us Regina being sad about not being invited. From that point, actually dealing with the Charming family relationships and interactions would mean bringing up and addressing what Regina did to them, and we couldn't have that. So, never mind.

Also, pretty much all the relationships became pretty shallow and a lot less interesting around that same time. I wonder if that was when they got less adult supervision. For the first season, they had to go in with a plan, probably got a lot more network notes before they even wrote scripts. Season one was a huge ratings hit, so they may have been given a lot more leeway to write what they wanted to write, the way they wanted to write it, and that meant skipping the Charming family interactions to focus on the villains. The addition of more romance, or at least a love interest for Emma, may have been a network suggestion. Wasn't there something about the network getting excited about Colin's casting, and he was named a regular before his first episode even aired? I don't remember the details, but I seem to recall there being something like that going on, that Hook wasn't necessarily going to be a long-term regular until they looked at the first episode and went "yes, keep him, please." Then if the network demanded a love interest for Emma, the writers had their "then Regina gets one too" reaction and we got Robin. They certainly wrote the relationship between Regina and Robin like the only reason for it was to give Regina a love interest at the same time Emma was getting one.

[KAOS Agent]

Did anyone catch Emilie de Ravin's answer on what she thinks Belle's happy ending should be?

"I hope that - I do hope that Belle and Rumple end up together but - I do hope they end up together not in a way that she - or him, for that matter, are giving in or giving up to do so, and that it’s what’s best for both of them. Somehow, reunited in a happy way with their child, like, emphasis on child."

I thought it was really interesting because she danced around the realities of Rumbelle. It seems to me that she is more on board with Belle's happy ending as being reunited with Gideon in baby form than trying to figure out how to make Rumpel and Belle work as they are currently portrayed.

[Camera One]

From a 6A preview interview:

KITSIS: We will see happier times. Even when the show is at its darkest or most intense, we always find the hope and we always find the fun. The entire show started with a wedding that was interrupted by the Queen, and today, they’re all best friends. That’s what we do.

I thought BFF was an exaggerated joke, but apparently, the Writers actually think that.  What was the "fun" part of this week's episode?  

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I thought BFF was an exaggerated joke, but apparently, the Writers actually think that.  What was the "fun" part of this week's episode?  

Beowulf taking extraordinary amounts of time to slaughter ogres?

[oncebluethrone]

5 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Beowulf taking extraordinary amounts of time to slaughter ogres?

Gideon stomping into the sheriff's office?

[Shanna Marie]

On 3/20/2017 at 11:13 AM, Amerilla said:

One of my lingering behind-the-scenes questions is: was it A&E's choice to move away from this parent-child focus, or was it the network?

Thinking more about this ... I don't think there's actually that much more romance now vs. parent-child. The thing is, they're bad at writing all relationships and don't seem to be all that interested in romance, either. They write romance with all the depth and insight of a five-year-old playing a love story with her Barbie and Ken dolls, basically just mashing their mouths together and going "Mmm, mmm, I love you." Regina and Robin's entire relationship consisted of talking about being fated for each other or talking about Marian. They didn't even bother showing them together enough in the Underworld to make his death particularly meaningful. In that case, the focus was entirely on Regina's relationships with her parents and her sister. Hook and Emma do get a few good conversations and quiet moments, but they totally flub most of the major stuff. In the Underworld arc, which was supposedly all about Emma going to get her love and being willing to share her heart, his big emotional turning point involved his brother. Then the moment he returned from the dead, she ran off to be with Regina. She was more concerned about Regina's reaction to Hook returning from the dead than she was concerned about his well-being upon returning from the dead. Rumple and Belle mostly just break up and reunite and have endless conversations about how he could/couldn't be better. We've never seen what their relationship is actually like -- why would Belle even bother sticking with him? We haven't seen them in any good times to see what she's getting out of it or what she sees in him, or to see why he'd bother even pretending being good for her sake. Henry and Violet are together because she was apparently the only teenager in Camelot.

So I don't even know what they're doing. I'd say that they're only interested in Regina's relationships, but they barely bothered with Robin and keep sidelining Zelena. Regina has barely interacted with Henry this season. Even when Hook and Emma's relationship was supposedly taking over the show, they only had a couple of episodes with significant interaction, and we didn't get to see the major moments.

[Curio]

6 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

So I don't even know what they're doing. 

 

Neither do I. Emma and Regina got a lot of focus in 6A, but even there, their friendship didn't grow at all or change fundamentally because the writers always repeat the same character beats over and over and over. Same with Hook and Charming—while their interactions were fun to watch, it's like empty calories because we've seen them go through the same motions time and time again.

[Rumsy4]

Even Snowing is weird at this point. David has serially kept secrets from Snow, and yet they never address that issue on-screen. Snow overrules David pretty much every time they have a conflicting idea. Their relationship is solely running on actor chemistry and lack of on-screen conflict. They don't even share scenes now. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

What are you talking about?  This is Year of Snowing.

[andromeda331]

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 0:53 AM, Camera One said:

From a 6A preview interview:

 

 

I thought BFF was an exaggerated joke, but apparently, the Writers actually think that.  What was the "fun" part of this week's episode?  

Before the episode?

[KingOfHearts]

"Changelings" was my "Breaking Glass". I'm still bitter about it. Regina has done nothing to reconcile with Zelena, even after all the apologies and groveling her sister has done. I can't believe they're working together again as if nothing ever happened. I did not expect Zelena to be sacrificed on the altar of Regina so quickly, but she did in fact join the White family in that regard. Emma wasn't my favorite character, so I wasn't hurt by Breaking Glass all that much. Yet, unlike Regina, Zelena has a shot at real redemption because she has self-awareness and remorse. That made me hopeful. Sadly, no one is safe from the REC. Not even one of the writers' favorite characters. (Though, Zelena isn't really any more.)

How are Regina and Zelena okay yet at the same time Zelena wants to ditch town like a thief in the night? Their dynamic is contradictory.

Edited March 24, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

6 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I did not expect Zelena to be sacrificed on the altar of Regina so quickly, but she did in fact join the White family in that regard. ... Sadly, no one is safe from the REC. 

Nobody is safe from the REC. Except maybe Rumple, who has his own woobification bubble going on. 

[Mathius]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Nobody is safe from the REC. Except maybe Rumple, who has his own woobification bubble going on. 

Yeah, I think Rumple has his own Exception Clause, which lets him get away with everything even when he's actively still being a villain.

Quote

KITSIS: We will see happier times. Even when the show is at its darkest or most intense, we always find the hope and we always find the fun. The entire show started with a wedding that was interrupted by the Queen, and today, they’re all best friends. That’s what we do.

This quote is so asinine and detached from reality.  I love how he claims it's so uplifting that Regina started the show interrupting Snow and Charming's wedding but is now "best friends" with them...and yet he writes an episode where Regina remorselessly crushes the hearts of an alternate version of Snow and Charming like it's nothing, with Lana Parilla even saying it "wasn't a sacrifice for her".  There is absolutely no consistency here.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Mathius

[PixiePaws1]

I honestly have no idea where this should be posted so please let me know if I got it wrong. I absolutely cacked myself when i read this....

http://peggyyswan.tumblr.com/post/158717134799/season-6b

[OnceUponAJen]

9 hours ago, PixiePaws1 said:

I honestly have no idea where this should be posted so please let me know if I got it wrong. I absolutely cacked myself when i read this....

http://peggyyswan.tumblr.com/post/158717134799/season-6b

I have no idea what cacked is, but I can guess.  ?

I think we need a bunch of Offscreensville scenes like this one.

[Shanna Marie]

That was funny. I would kind of amend it, though:

Hook: (Grabs Emma and kisses her. Smiles and is animated.)
Emma: My superpower tells me you're lying, but I'm going to buy what you're selling.
Hook: (Comes home wasted, angsting all over the place, looking like he's in physical pain) I needed liquid courage because there's something I need to say to you.
Emma: I'll say yes!
Hook: Huh?
Emma: I found the ring, so propose, already!
Hook: (angsts some more, proposes while looking like he's about to cry)
Emma: (discovers him burning the dreamcatcher) Wait, there's something going on with you. Why didn't you trust me enough to tell me?
Hook: I couldn't live with myself and face your parents.
Emma: But we should face that together, so take back the ring and go away until you learn to trust me and do things together (later, watches at the window) Why isn't he home?
 

[Curio]

Maybe we weren't supposed to interpret that scene of Emma looking out the window as her thinking Hook might come home, maybe Emma realizes she went too overboard with taking off the ring and stomping away, so she blames herself for Hook not being there? Eh, probably not.

I'm still confused why David hasn't had any screen time since this reveal. Doesn't Robert's murder impact him more than anyone? Why are we focusing more on Emma/Killian angst when this always should have been more about David/Killian?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

10 minutes ago, Curio said:

Maybe we weren't supposed to interpret that scene of Emma looking out the window as her thinking Hook might come home, maybe Emma realizes she went too overboard with taking off the ring and stomping away, so she blames herself for Hook not being there? Eh, probably not.

I'm thinking not, given his disappearance. It's all set up for her to think he left rather than for her to worry she drove him away. It would be less of a big misunderstanding if she thought she was to blame rather than thinking he rejected her. And you know it's all going to be about the misunderstanding. They really are going for the bad Harlequin tropes on this one.

11 minutes ago, Curio said:

Why are we focusing more on Emma/Killian angst when this always should have been more about David/Killian?

Yeah, that would have been interesting, to see how Killian reacted the next time he saw David. Would he be avoiding him? Looking like he was about to throw up when David hugged him and treated him like a brother?

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Curio said:

I'm still confused why David hasn't had any screen time since this reveal. Doesn't Robert's murder impact him more than anyone? 

David who?   He was just used as a catalyst to fuel the drama.  Emma doesn't care about her grandfather and now its not even about that anymore.  I am curious how many lines they'll give David to resolve this in the end, though... a B plot?  A scene?  A line?  You never know with this show.  But David's not getting more than one centric per season.

[Curio]

I'm guessing David will find out about Robert off screen, and then Emma will tell Hook on screen that she already told David and it's all resolved. And then David will maybe have one line where he gets to talk to Hook a few episodes later when no one cares about the plot anymore, but by the end of it, they're chummy pals again.

[Mathius]

2 minutes ago, Curio said:

I'm guessing David will find out about Robert off screen, and then Emma will tell Hook on screen that she already told David and it's all resolved. And then David will maybe have one line where he gets to talk to Hook a few episodes later when no one cares about the plot anymore, but by the end of it, they're chummy pals again.

That's EXACTLY what will happen, just watch.

[ParadoxLost]

The minute Snow relearned her second chances lesson from EQ/Regina, it was completely clear that there would be no Charming and Hook conflict.

Regina will uncurse Snowing.  This will happen before Charming learns that Hook killed his father and "left" Emma.  Snow will make him see reason off screen.  

Best case is that there is a scene where Hook apologizes and Charming immediately accepts.  Offscreen is also possible.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

David who?   He was just used as a catalyst to fuel the drama.  

David's centric for this season is finished. For all intents and purposes, he doesn't exist any more.

[Camera One]

Maybe David will thank Hook for the dreamcatcher because it allowed him to see his father one last time. 

[Rumsy4]

It was odd when Emma told "Hook" that she thought they were the kind of couple who told each other everything and worked at things together. Because that's not what we've seen. They keep secrets from each other, and Hook is still the one more supportive of Emma and sensitive to her moods. If we saw domestic scenes of them living in their house, or at least spending screentime together, I might care more about the broken engagement. I never thought they were ready to get engaged, and this contrived drama of a forced engagement and un-engagement is just stupid. I just want them both to trust each other and act like a couple who went through hell and back for each other. It's like Season 5 doesn't exist. We're back to Emma walking away from Hook, and Hook angsting to the nth degree. And I'm sorry--Killian would never ever think of leaving Storybrooke when there was a villian running around trying to kill Emma. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

When Emma was walking through the house, I couldn't even remember what was there before.  It looked like an empty house.  Did Hook take the furniture too?  Or was it because the telescope was gone?  It's all secrets and lies... Emma lied about her visions.  Killian lied about throwing away the shears.  Now Killian withholds info about killing David's father.  No one works at things together on this show.

[Curio]

Yeah, I kind of want to shake Emma and say, "Girl, all you and Killian do is keep secrets from each other! That's your relationship! You hide your initial feelings for him, he hides that he traded his ship for you, he hides Zelena's lip curse, you hide the real reason why you're afraid to start a relationship with him, he hides the Apprentice's hat secret, he hides Ursula's secret, you hide the fact that you turned him into a Dark One against his will, he hides his plan to not join you in the Underworld elevator, you hide your savior shakes and visions, he hides the shears, he hides Robert's murder...if anything, Killian is just going along with the status quo you guys have established over the past three years."

Edited March 28, 2017 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

In taking on this murder plot, I'm afraid they've gone beyond what they have the skills to convey in human relationships. It's obviously just for the drama and plot, with no thought given to how these characters would really act and how any actual person would act. Even if it was done in the past, done unintentionally (at least, not aimed at hurting David), and so much else has happened since then, it's hard to imagine anyone being open to welcoming the murderer into the family. Yes, there are real-life cases of people being able to forgive, reconcile, and even become friends with people who murdered members of their families, but the cases are rare enough that they make the news and people write books and make movies out of them. Granted, this case has some elements you can't get in the real world, like the number of times Hook has died for that family or the time David killed him in the AU, and I haven't heard of any real-life case in which both the killer and the family only learned who committed the murder/who he was murdering after they'd already become friends and after the murderer had put his life on the line for members of the family and saved their lives. Still, in those real-life cases it takes a lot of faith and strength and time for the reconciliation to happen. Dealing with this as quickly as they'll have to and it probably boiling down to hugging it out is in a sense disrespectful to real people who've gone through stuff like this.

And it's not just hard from the Charming family point of view. As Hook told Emma, he can't bear the thought of sitting across the table from David. That has nothing to do with whether or not David forgives him. It's Hook having a conscience. It's a sign that he's a decent person. If I were him, I probably would have left town because it would be too much to take, and it would forever taint the romantic relationship to know I'd caused harm to someone I'd come to care about and might be causing ongoing harm if my presence reminds them constantly of the pain. Even though the confession, repentance, and apology are on the perpetrator, in cases like this, the decision to continue the relationship has to rest on the victims. They need to be the ones to reach out to him and bring him back to them once they've decided what they want. He can't presume upon them. Or, as I said in the episode thread, maybe letting him destroy the memories would have been kindest to everyone.

And it's further complicated by the REC, since we already have an example of someone who has done them far more harm, deliberately aimed at hurting them, without them seeming to be all that bothered by it. There's already been more contrition shown by Hook for this than Regina has shown for her crimes, and a bigger deal has been made out of this. Emma's already given Hook more grief about not telling her than she's given Regina for all the stuff Regina has done -- and then there's the Graham issue. This is one of those things where they unintentionally (I'm sure) make Regina look bad in comparison. In the episode in which the Evil Queen gets to go off and get her happy ending, we have Emma furious at Hook about him not telling her about his past crime, all while Regina has never told Emma about killing Graham. Regina apparently has no problem looking at Emma while knowing what she's done, has suffered no angst, other than shedding a tear or two for "having" to do it and losing Graham. And now, if the show follows its usual patterns, watch Emma run do shots with Regina and commiserate on how awful this is for her, even while Regina still doesn't confess her own murder that affected -- and even targeted -- Emma.

I think this story line might have made for some interesting character relationships and explorations of guilt and repentance, but not on this series with its existing history and not the way these writers deal with relationships. 

[Curio]

I was actually kind of upset by how quickly Hook flipped a switch after Snow's speech and was all, "Villains can get happy endings now! I'm going to get a second or third chance!" Okay, but how do you still feel about David's father? How are you going to confront David? What was Hook's plan after that? Just walk up to Emma and say, "You're right, I'm just being too hard on myself. No more secrets, I accept your family's unrealistic forgiveness! Want me to get down on one knee again? Or are you going to throw it back in my face?" It would have been more realistic for Hook to realize he might still have a chance with Emma, but only after he searches his soul a little bit and does something to make it up to Charming and Snow, like finding the antidote to their sleeping curse by risking his life and going on an adventure with Nemo.

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, Curio said:

It would have been more realistic for Hook to realize he might still have a chance with Emma, but only after he searches his soul a little bit and does something to make it up to Charming and Snow, like finding the antidote to their sleeping curse by risking his life and going on an adventure with Nemo.

That's why the dramatic staring out the window and turning out the porch light like it's some kind of final judgment, as well as any drama in the aftermath of his leaving is so out of place. She gave the ring back and basically told him to figure things out and get it together, and the obvious next step then is for him to go off and work things out, do some soul searching, do something to make it up to them, so why all the "why didn't he come home?" Wouldn't she expect him to maybe go away for a while? He's action guy. Doing stuff is the way he deals. He's got to go off and slay a dragon for her (literally or metaphorically). The obvious conclusion isn't "he didn't come home, so I guess he abandoned me," but rather "maybe he's off figuring things out and doing something to redeem himself, since that's how he rolls."

I guess maybe Snow's speech didn't so much give him hope that villains can have happy endings, but that the Charmings can be ridiculously happy about someone who's done horrible things to them getting a happy ending. If Snow can be all "Yay, happy ending!" about Regina/Evil Queen, then he stands a chance of them not outright rejecting him. Though I don't think he's conscious of the REC.

[Curio]

Also, Emma doesn't have much room for wondering where Hook is when she literally tossed aside his doppelganger in the Wish Realm in favor of hanging out with August instead. You can't pick and choose which moments in life you want Hook next to you, Emma. You can't just assume he'll always be there after you go off and do some shots with Regina or go on an adventure with August. 

[KAOS Agent]

I didn't see Emma turning out the light as her giving up on their relationship. She seemed to regret going as far as she did and realized that he had gone off to get it together and wasn't coming back that night. They had a fight and she went too far, which is what happens when you're angry. I know it's hard to see because no one on this show is allowed to have normal feelings or reactions (except when plot calls for it), but that seemed like a pretty normal fight to me and when you cool down, it's not as big of a deal and you hope your significant other will understand and you talk and make up. 

[Curio]

Unless Emma actually says, "I went too far with giving the ring back," I think we're supposed to interpret the ending scene as Emma being disappointed in Hook. The writers aren't very deep with their writing, and I would love for Emma to acknowledge that it's totally normal for Hook not to immediately come back home and take some time to himself, but the writers want us to think Emma was totally on the right side of the argument. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

14 minutes ago, Curio said:

You can't pick and choose which moments in life you want Hook next to you, Emma. You can't just assume he'll always be there after you go off and do some shots with Regina or go on an adventure with August. 

This has always been my biggest issue with Captain Swan. Emma is the main character (or she was). So it's natural that she gets scenes with lots of different characters. However, it's the isolating nature of these interactions that is a problem. Especially when it comes to Regina, Emma drops Hook like a hot potato, and focuses on Regina's pain and Regina's happiness to the exclusion of everything else. (Snow prioritizes Regina over Emma, but not over Charming). That makes CS look somewhat one-sided even after all this time. 

If Nemo and Liam 2.0 stuck around, at least Hook would have someone other than the Charmings to talk to and hang out with. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Rumsy4

[KingOfHearts]

12 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

This has always been my biggest issue with Captain Swan. Emma is the main character (or she was). So it's natural that she gets scenes with lots of different characters. However, it's the isolating nature of these interactions that is a problem. Especially when it comes to Regina, Emma drops Hook like a hot potato, and focuses on Regina's pain and Regina's happiness to the exclusion of everything else. (Snow prioritizes Regina over Emma, but not over Charming). That makes CS look somewhat one-sided even after all this time. 

See, my thing with Emma is, she just kind of does whatever she wants and uses her walls as excuses. She can lie, overreact, make questionable decisions, etc. and everyone else just rolls with it. They're only allowed to be angry with her for five seconds. (Unless they're Regina.) Emma doesn't consider Hook's feelings. She turned him into a Dark One against his will, hid her imminent death from him, hijacked the proposal, and then took the ring off over a hypocritical snap-judgement. She just expects him to revolve around her emotions. IMO, Hook deserves better than her. I want to see him with agency.

Edited March 28, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[KAOS Agent]

I don't understand how Hook continuing with the lying/secrets thing is supposed to be acceptable to Emma. Hook is rarely given a POV and most of their conversations happen in Offscreenville, but you can't start off a marriage with either of them continuing to do the things that have hurt both of them in the past. If Hook, who has his own history of lies/secrets, broke it off with Emma over the death prophecy thing, would that be unacceptable or hypocritical of him? Or would that be a reasonable reaction to not wanting to begin their marriage with her continuing previous bad behavior and doing something hurtful to him?

[Curio]

21 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Emma doesn't consider Hook's feelings. She turned him into a Dark One against his will, hid her imminent death from him

 

And we still haven't seen Emma and Hook have a proper conversation about that. The most we've seen on screen was the argument where they were both Dark Ones and weren't thinking clearly. We've never actually seen non-dark Emma and Killian discussing what went down. Heck, no one in Season 6 has bothered to mention Hook died last season. During the engagement ring argument, Emma could have dropped a line about her rescuing Hook in the Underworld and Zeus rewarding Killian, but the writers seem dead set on avoiding all of that. It's like Season 5 never existed. 

I forget which thread it was posted in, but I think @Shanna Marie made a good point about the engagement ring fight—Emma and Hook were arguing about two different things. Hook was trying to explain how can't bare to look her parents in the eyes and might not ever get over that guilt, but she thought he was foolish for not knowing he'd receive immediate forgiveness and was caught up with the secret part of it. Neither one was going to win that argument no matter what.

And then it made me realize we've seen this exact scenario before—the argument I just mentioned above where Emma and Hook were both Dark Ones. In the flower field, Hook said, "Do you have any idea how it feels to not be in control of yourself? The last time a Dark One controlled me, I had to watch as Rumplestiltskin almost killed you. I had to kneel, powerless, while he almost crushed my heart." But then Emma responded with a completely different point, "I know exactly how it feels. All my life, everyone I loved abandoned me." Emma, that's not at all the point Hook was trying to make. Hook was talking about someone physically forcing him to do something beyond his free will, and then Emma randomly responded with abandonment issues. Emma could have easily brought up Regina controlling Emma with the dagger, but she went in a totally different direction. It makes Emma come across as if she's only pretending to listen and empathize with Hook's feelings, but she's only hearing what she wants to hear. She wasn't truly listening to Killian's guilt about Robert and David and made it more about him not trusting her, which is not at all the case.

Quote

I don't understand how Hook continuing with the lying/secrets thing is supposed to be acceptable to Emma.

It shouldn't be acceptable, but Emma can also be critiqued for walking away from the argument without giving Hook the chance to speak. She has every right to be angry, but when Killian was attempting to get a word in, she cut him off, took off the ring, and walked upstairs. She pleaded with him to come to her when things get hard and work together, but then she totally forgot about the "together" part of her speech when she walked away.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Curio

[InsertWordHere]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Especially when it comes to Regina, Emma drops Hook like a hot potato, and focuses on Regina's pain and Regina's happiness to the exclusion of everything else. (Snow prioritizes Regina over Emma, but not over Charming).

Except for in the recent episode, when she was oddly nowhere to be found when Snow was looking for her to give her news about Regina. Where was Emma if she wasn't with Hook, Regina, or Snow? Presumably she wasn't with Henry since he was busy writing his fanfic. I also assume Snow would have checked for her at the Sheriff's station first. Was she watching Neal 2 since no one else seems to be? Gazing at her sleeping beauty of a father (I know I would, but not if he was my father)? Maybe she was actually doing regular sheriff stuff?

[Camera One]

She was probably taking a forlorn walk in the forest where Gideon was not trying to kill her.

[KAOS Agent]

Does she know Gideon has the sword and is actively trying to kill her? Has anyone reported Blue missing? Maybe the rest of the nuns secretly hate her and are hoping she's dead.

Quote

It shouldn't be acceptable, but Emma can also be critiqued for walking away from the argument without giving Hook the chance to speak. She has every right to be angry, but when Killian was attempting to get a word in, she cut him off, took off the ring, and walked upstairs. 

See I totally walk off in the middle of an argument, so I can't be critical. For me, it's because I know it's getting out of hand and bad things will happen if I don't cool down before we talk again. An ex and I once had a fight in the middle of Prague and I walked off. A friend who witnessed it was all worried and wanted to chase after me, but my boyfriend was just like this is what we do. He knew we'd talk in a bit when we weren't so angry. So I look at it from that point of view. If that were me, I'd come home and not find my boyfriend there and regret that it'd gotten too far out of hand before I walked away.

But I also think the promo monkeys have affected the conversation by showing Emma saying she needs to move on, which I don't think she actually says because the camera cuts from one shot where she says the first part to a completely different angle of her saying moving on. Mostly, this is such a ridiculously contrived situation that I can't blame any character, only the writers for pretending 5B never happened and that all of this wasn't resolved in that arc. They have zero story for Emma or Hook, so we get contrived relationship angst and broody Hook and whatever random mood Emma needs to be in for plot.

[Rumsy4]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

And we still haven't seen Emma and Hook have a proper conversation about that. 

And they're never going to have that conversation, or any. They're going to put a band-aid on their issues and get married. CS was going well until S6. The same issues shouldn't be playing out six seasons into the Show. All the relationships in this Show have been stale and repetitive. It's a pervasive issue. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

They'll be in a situation where everyone is going to die, so bygones.  That's how these people resolve all their issues.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

7 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

See I totally walk off in the middle of an argument, so I can't be critical. For me, it's because I know it's getting out of hand and bad things will happen if I don't cool down before we talk again. An ex and I once had a fight in the middle of Prague and I walked off. A friend who witnessed it was all worried and wanted to chase after me, but my boyfriend was just like this is what we do. He knew we'd talk in a bit when we weren't so angry. So I look at it from that point of view. If that were me, I'd come home and not find my boyfriend there and regret that it'd gotten too far out of hand before I walked away.

Walking away is a legit tactic if both parties are yelling at each other and things are getting out of hand, but Emma and Hook's conversation only lasted 2 minutes, and neither one seemed to be aggressively yelling to the point where it could have been dangerous. They need to be able to talk things out but Emma has a history of walking away from their conversations. From "Mother":

Emma: We talked about this.
Hook: I talked, you walked away. I just wanna know, is anything gonna be enough? Or are you willing to lose them just to spite them?
Emma: Gimme back the rum.
Hook: They've done a lot of good. Turned themselves into heroes. Yes. I know they didn't own up to what they did. But did you ever think maybe they were ashamed? And they wanted you to like them.

That conversation can pretty much apply to Hook's situation now and it's as if he was describing himself. It's just frustrating as an audience member to see these characters go through nearly identical situations yet they never learn. Hook doesn't learn to come clean fast enough and Emma doesn't learn to listen and not walk away. Hook said he was afraid of losing Emma and that's why he didn't tell her, and then she asked if he really thought that would happen. Well, Hook was kind of right because 30 seconds later he lost Emma when she walked away.

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But I also think the promo monkeys have affected the conversation by showing Emma saying she needs to move on, which I don't think she actually says because the camera cuts from one shot where she says the first part to a completely different angle of her saying moving on. 

It's definitely two different audio tracks merged into one. You can hear the awkward audio shift between the two. It still makes me nervous that Emma is going to get drunk, though. It's never smart to go out and drink immediately following a fight or when you're highly emotional, and I'm totally side-eyeing Regina and Snow for taking her out to the Rabbit Hole. At least I'm assuming this is Snow or Regina's plan because the main reason you go have drinks at a place like the Rabbit Hole is to dress up, feel confident, and boost your self-esteem by having people hit on you. Yet, in the promo, it looks like Emma is wearing a black turtleneck and doesn't really want that kind of attention. If anything bad comes out of their girls' night out, I hope Snow and Regina get part of the blame for potentially pressuring Emma into the situation. With Emma's emotional state, this is when you bring the wine bottle over to Emma's house and you have a late night girls chat on the couch; it's not the time to go get black out drunk and go all "Woo Girls" at the local bar.

Also, it's going to be so much fun watching Emma complain to Snow and Regina about Hook keeping a huge secret and she'll clearly be distressed, yet Regina will watch all of this and not confess about Graham.

[oncebluethrone]

9 hours ago, Curio said:

And then it made me realize we've seen this exact scenario before—the argument I just mentioned above where Emma and Hook were both Dark Ones. In the flower field, Hook said, "Do you have any idea how it feels to not be in control of yourself? The last time a Dark One controlled me, I had to watch as Rumplestiltskin almost killed you. I had to kneel, powerless, while he almost crushed my heart." But then Emma responded with a completely different point, "I know exactly how it feels. All my life, everyone I loved abandoned me." Emma, that's not at all the point Hook was trying to make. Hook was talking about someone physically forcing him to do something beyond his free will, and then Emma randomly responded with abandonment issues.

I think they were both talking about the actions of others dictating their lives. Killian in a physical life/death situation and Emma in a growing up alone situation. 

[Shanna Marie]

37 minutes ago, Curio said:

Hook said he was afraid of losing Emma and that's why he didn't tell her, and then she asked if he really thought that would happen. Well, Hook was kind of right because 30 seconds later he lost Emma when she walked away.

That's the part of the fight -- other than her not listening to him about what's actually bothering him -- that bugs me. She validates his fear by not sticking it out, plus, as she's giving the ring back, she's talking about how what she agreed to marry was working things out together. It's so contradictory, you have to wonder if the writers even re-read this. He says he can't bear to face David, she says he should have trusted her and her parents to forgive him (two different things). She says she thought they would work things through together, so she gives him the ring back, tells him to figure it out, and walks off. If she really wants to work this through as a couple, she keeps the ring and they work it out together. She already said they aren't getting married right away, so they have time to work it out before they get married, so they don't have to end the engagement. He can't figure out how to work through things together without her participation. She didn't even give him a specific condition for getting back on track -- when you're ready to talk to David, for instance. It was so vague that I guess all he can do is come crawling back, begging for forgiveness? Basically, his worst fears were realized: if he screws up, he loses her immediately.

11 hours ago, Curio said:

You can't pick and choose which moments in life you want Hook next to you, Emma. You can't just assume he'll always be there after you go off and do some shots with Regina or go on an adventure with August. 

I think this tendency is why I read her turning out the light as her giving up rather than her fearing she'd gone too far. I think if she feared she'd gone too far, she'd have gone looking for him. She'd have checked the diner, the Jolly Roger, the loft (in case he'd gone to talk to David on his own), the Nautilus, the docks, the Rabbit Hole, the library. Snow, who's barely spoken to him, found him, so if Emma was really looking for him, you'd think she would have. If we're supposed to believe that Emma had already looked all over town for him and finding him at home was her last hope, we needed some indication of that. But because of the crazy writing on this show, every time Hook has been in some kind of need, she's rushed off somewhere else instead of dealing with him. He gets his heart ripped out and nearly crushed, she shoves it back in and runs off to check on Regina. He gets killed and brought back to life, she rushes off to make sure Regina's okay. We never get to see the "are you okay" or "let's make sure you're okay" scene when he's the one in need, while we get a lot of his concern for her when she's in crisis. So it's easy to read her here as assuming he'll be there for her and giving up quickly when he's not.

[Curio]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

She validates his fear by not sticking it out, plus, as she's giving the ring back, she's talking about how what she agreed to marry was working things out together. It's so contradictory, you have to wonder if the writers even re-read this. 

According to the writer who wrote that scene, it went through many different drafts, so that argument went through many different iterations and this was the "best" one. Who knows, maybe one of the earlier drafts made more sense, but then A&E stepped in and were like, "This isn't vague enough!"

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We never get to see the "are you okay" or "let's make sure you're okay" scene when he's the one in need, while we get a lot of his concern for her when she's in crisis. 

Pretty much the only time we've truly seen Emma put Hook's feelings and wellbeing before anything else was when she rescued him in the Underworld and wanted to make sure he was okay by magically healing his injuries. But of course that was the retcon episode with Liam and Killian was acting extra angsty and pessimistic towards Emma. We just can't win.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

12 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

But, you know, after her secret about dying was revealed, everyone got on her case too. Hook included. 

Snow did more than anyone.  Basically Hook got to say that she lied to them, and then later tell her he was on her side, ("If that's what you want, I'm with you Swan.") Hook didn't tell Emma that the relationship was over unless she figured out whatever she needed to figure out.  And when Emma asked Snow for forgiveness, Snow gave it right away.  When Hook asked Emma for forgiveness, she gave the ring back.   

12 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

If Hook, who has his own history of lies/secrets, broke it off with Emma over the death prophecy thing, would that be unacceptable or hypocritical of him? 

Yes, Unacceptable and Hypocritical.   But see above.  Hook didn't break it off.  

10 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

See I totally walk off in the middle of an argument,

But as @Curio, said walking off in the middle of an argument to cool down is not the same as breaking off the relationship.  The expectation there (And that your boyfriend apparently knew) is that the discussion would continue when heads were cooler.  Does Killian have that expectation?  How could he after she gave the ring back?  Even the writer called it a 'break up', not a 'break'.  If Emma had said something like "I can't talk about this anymore right now.  I need time to think" and walked away - but not taken off the ring and given it back to Killian, that would have been different.  I think that would have been okay and made sense.  

[Curio]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Even the writer called it a 'break up', not a 'break'.  If Emma had said something like "I can't talk about this anymore right now.  I need time to think" and walked away - but not taken off the ring and given it back to Killian, that would have been different.  I think that would have been okay and made sense.  

It makes me think that an original draft of the scene didn't include Emma physically taking off the ring, but A&E wanted it to be more melodramatic and shocking, so they had Emma take the ring off. Or the writers were thinking backwards and they always knew there would be a second proposal later in the season where Hook isn't so guilt-ridden, but they thought it would be weird for him to propose without a ring, so they forced Emma to take it off to set up Round 2. Unfortunately, that kind of backwards thinking only focuses on the plot and destroys the characterizations in the current timeline.

[Souris]

It's just the typical shitty writing on this show where they don't care about meanings or repercussions or characterization. They just want drama, angst and shocks.