Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Camera One]

4 hours ago, Curio said:

I'm surprised Snow wasn't allowed to say anything about missing Emma's presence in the latest episode. Why was David the only one freaking out making pancakes? 

I'm sorry but that doesn't fit with the plot.  Snow was extremely busy thinking about her first love - teaching the Third Law of Motion.  And look how she had no emotional reaction to having to leave the baby for an entire workday either.  Welcome to Storybrooke.  Where we're all Droids unless it's our centric (and even in our centric if it's a really Count of Monte Crappy one).

[Dianthus]

Shanna Marie, myself and others have all presented various possible explanations for the friendship between Hook and Belle, both from a character perspective and a writing perspective. Obviously, I had no say in it, nor any initial investment. I like it because I like both the characters involved, it's something different, and I think it's fairly well-written. OTOH, I loathe Regina, and I've never made any secret of it.

[KAOS Agent]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

And look how she had no emotional reaction to having to leave the baby for an entire workday either.

Yeah, that one kind of bothered me. Not because I think she should be tied to the baby, but because a) the Evil Queen is running around and we all know what she tried to do to Snow's first child and b) regardless of how ready you are to go back to work, there's usually a bit of sadness at doing so and Snow just handed the baby to David and left. No emotions, no worries. She doesn't even seem particularly worried about Emma either. No questions about the hand shakes. No little queries about if Archie is helping. I mean if she couldn't even bother to talk to Emma about her troubles, couldn't she at least express some interest in whether Emma is still bothered by whatever sent Snow running to Archie in the first place?  I don't understand what this show has done to the Emma/Snow relationship, but they've totally ruined my enjoyment of it. I fully expect Snow to get all pissy about Emma's secret and considering they're the ones who sent Archie to her rather than talking to her themselves, they don't have any right to get upset that she didn't share. But they're all robots until the plot tells them to have emotions, so it is what it is I guess.

[Camera One]

Henry even knows about the handshakes, and surely he told Snow about what happened when Emma tried to heal Cinderella two episodes ago?  Again, it's like these characters freeze into statues between episodes. 

And Henry is seriously fine with going to school?  Isn't he all hung up on becoming a hero and helping to prevent another daily disaster with the people from the Land of Untold Stories?

What is with Violet casually kissing Henry at school... is that normal for 12 year olds, or however old he is supposed to be?  

Edited October 22, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Yeah, that one kind of bothered me. Not because I think she should be tied to the baby, but because a) the Evil Queen is running around and we all know what she tried to do to Snow's first child and b) regardless of how ready you are to go back to work, there's usually a bit of sadness at doing so and Snow just handed the baby to David and left.

Well, you see, Snow is a Hope Bot. She doesn't believe in danger, therefore it won't happen. It's kind of like driving off a cliff and saying, "Oh, the airbags will save me!" She does stupid things in the name of hope, and many times with disastrous consequences for those around her.

Edited October 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Quote

What is with Violet casually kissing Henry at school... is that normal for 12 year olds, or however old he is supposed to be?

 It definitely wasn't normal at my school. Also, Violet needs to go. I want Henry to gain a group of friends before becoming obsessed with his girlfriend who happens to be his only friend. Henry could very well turn into Nice Guy Mr. Jekyll in the future if he can't find a group of boys and girls his age he can get along with platonically.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, Curio said:

 It definitely wasn't normal at my school. Also, Violet needs to go. I want Henry to gain a group of friends before becoming obsessed with his girlfriend who happens to be his only friend. Henry could very well turn into Nice Guy Mr. Jekyll in the future if he can't find a group of boys and girls his age he can get along with platonically.

His best friend is August.  They grew up together.  Isn't it sweet he and his mom have the same best friend?  

Edited October 22, 2016 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

His best friend is August.  They grew up together.  Isn't it sweet he and his mom have the same best friend?  

Why must you upset me so? :(

Haha just kidding. I guess August was kind of Henry's dad's best friend too since they had such a good time conspiring together. I wonder how August would have felt knowing Neal was trying to destroy the very thing that was keeping him alive in Season 2. Oh no, I think I just made myself vaguely sympathize with August. 

[Camera One]

You can't have a best friend who hasn't screwed you over and ruined your life (or tried to kill you), you know.  The Writers should really write a book about friendship once they're done with this show.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Henry: "Wait... your mom can't be your best friend too?!"

[Curio]

"Henry, why don't you have any friends?"

"What are you talking about? I have four best friends! My girlfriend, my mom, my mom, and my mom!"

[Dianthus]

Technically five, if you count Hook.

[TheGreenKnight]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 3:38 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I don't think that fat-shaming or disability-shaming are ever okay or ever fall under the umbrella of "funny" or "sass."

Different strokes. The comments you seem to think are shaming I find perfectly acceptable. And that type of dark comedy is the best kind, imo, and I'd say the friendships on those two shows are some of the strongest seen in television because of the way the humor works. Real friends know where the line between teasing and cruel is with one another, and that's the relationship they've depicted with the three female leads on this show.

[Camera One]

I think that's the key - real friends.  In Season 3, Snow wasn't a real friend yet, and what's more, she doesn't fire back zingers so it's not a two-way street.  If one is talking to someone they're trying to win back, making up for past wrongs, it should have been a tenuous stage if done right.  That's why some viewers are not convinced by this friendship, even now, because people don't act like that to people they've wronged.  Maybe they do on a sitcom but this is supposed to be a drama.  

[Mathius]

I will forever maintain that an Emma-Regina friendship is perfectly fine and believable, it was just the execution and development of it that got screwed up, rather than continue to develop organically, the writers rushed the two to being besties in S4 as part of some half-assed effort to appease the SQ crowd without actually making SQ canon.  The Snow-Regina friendship, on the other hand, should have never ever ever happened.  It's not heartwarming, it's creepy, especially when it is constantly coming at the expense of Snow's relationship with the daughter Regina deprived her of.

I'd even take a Charming-Regina friendship over a Snow-Regina one.  There is just way too much baggage between Snow and Regina for the relationship they presently have on the show to make any logical sense.  All it does is make Snow come off as totally and disturbingly non-human.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

Quote

There is just way too much baggage between Snow and Regina for the relationship they presently have on the show to make any logical sense.  All it does is make Snow come off as totally and disturbingly non-human. 

The biggest and most insurmountable baggage, one which is mentioned even less than separating mother and daughter for 28 years, is the murder of Snow's father, someone Snow deeply loved and probably the most important person in her life at that point.  "It's complicated" is still all we've gotten so far in relation to this particular crime.  And Regina can't even say flippantly "well, then you found one another" because Leopold's death was not reversible.  If they really wanted to make the Regina remorse real, then she should have faced Leopold (among many others) in the Underworld.  But then again, maybe it's for the best, since they would probably have written Leopold apologizing to Regina and Cora, and thanking Regina for taking care of his daughter and becoming BFFs with his grandaughter and raising his great-grandson.  With this show, you *really* have to be careful what you wish for.  "I wish Emma would have more character moments" and then you get Breaking Glass.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 "It's complicated" is still all we've gotten so far in relation to this particular crime.  

Was that even about Leopold? I thought that was about Cora murdering Snow's mother, which made Snow's killing of Cora "complicated." That was Regina's somewhat softening stance on Cora's murder, after Snow did quite a bit more groveling. I don't recall Leopold's murder ever coming up between Snow and Regina.

If Snow responded to Regina like an actual human being and not like a cartoon character, I couldn't imagine Emma being friends with Regina because that would be a huge betrayal. If your mother is upset at someone for murdering her father, kicking her out of her home, stealing her kingdom, casting a curse that separated her from her husband and daughter for 28 years, and framing her for murder, you're not going to become friends with that person. Heck, I can't imagine becoming friends with that person after knowing that she framed your friend for murder and tried to murder you, nearly killing your son in the process, let alone all the stuff she knows Regina did but didn't experience.

[Camera One]

I think you're right.  It's been awhile since I've watched "Bleeding Through" and my next viewing probably won't be in this millennium.  

Other dialogue we won't get...

DAVID: So, Snow.  How did you deal with your father being murdered.

Seeing that Charlotte had died the same way should have really affected Snow.  She wouldn't be happily skipping off to school a few days later.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Camera One

[Dianthus]

Oddly, I think I find the Snow/Regina "friendship" a little more palatable than Emma/Regina simply because Snow and Regina share so much history. I can see it as source of low grade but ongoing conflict between Snow and Emma (if the writers gave a damn about Emma and Snow). Emma wouldn't understand it, Snow would have a hard time explaining it, and it would ultimately give them greater insight in to each other's character.

What makes Regina's dig at Snow not funny (IMO) is that Regina made herself barren by drinking that potion, so she's picking on a very pregnant Snow out of jealousy.

I think one thing that can't be interpreted in any way as a 'funny' comment is Regina telling Emma that her first impulse on seeing Hook back from the dead was to rip out his throat. So long as she had Robin, Regina was willing to help rescue Hook. Without him, she didn't want her "friend" to have the happiness she couldn't have. Also, Regina being dismissive of Emma's computer skills. Same thing as above. Emma has abilities/skills Regina lacks, so Regina has to diminish their value to feel better about herself.

It's ironic, but I should thank you, I suppose, for giving me yet another excuse to enumerate the reasons I hate Regina. Keeping these feelings bottled up isn't healthy, so it's nice to give them an airing now and then.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Dianthus
more words

[TheGreenKnight]

21 hours ago, Dianthus said:

I think one thing that can't be interpreted in any way as a 'funny' comment is Regina telling Emma that her first impulse on seeing Hook back from the dead was to rip out his throat.

Who would argue that??? It was said in a serious conversation about Regina's reaction to Robin's death/Hook's resurrection. I don't consider it abuse either since the scene was depicted almost like a therapy session and Emma was asking her how she really feels. I don't think there's any evidence Regina's comment to pregnant Snow was made out of jealousy though.

[Rumsy4]

Regina's flippant comment about Snow's pregnancy was disdain. She came across as one of those high-society women who use a surrogate to have a baby because they don't want to ruin their figure. 

I wouldn't mind half of Regina's remarks if people were allowed to snark back at her or call her out (and not when they are a Dark One). 

Edited October 24, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Dianthus]

There's text, and then there's subtext. Regina is full of bitterness, resentment, and jealousy. Taking away everyone else's Happy Endings was the reason she cast the Dark Curse in the first place, and it meant more to her than the life of her father. She was upset because Emma got her boyfriend back. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: F*ck Regina! She's a whiny-ass little titty baby and it would take far better writing than hacks like A & E are capable of to redeem her in my eyes.

[TheGreenKnight]

I guess a normal person would not feel jealous at all to watch their loved one die and then the loved one of someone else be resurrected within the same day. Add in Regina's history, and her reaction was not surprising. A drunk would want to drink, a drug addict would want to do drugs, etc. I'm not sure what the Curse has to do with Robin's death, but okay.

[tri4335]

1 hour ago, TheGreenKnight said:

I guess a normal person would not feel jealous at all to watch their loved one die and then the loved one of someone else be resurrected within the same day. Add in Regina's history, and her reaction was not surprising. A drunk would want to drink, a drug addict would want to do drugs, etc. I'm not sure what the Curse has to do with Robin's death, but okay.

Thanks for the chuckle The Green Knight!  The first two are self-destructive behaviors while Regina's addiction is being a homicidal maniac. :-)

[TheGreenKnight]

Yes, but I'm assuming you have reading skills and understand my meaning that a person feels temptation to fall into their worst habits when a tragedy happens and, yes, Regina’s worst habit was inflicting her emotions onto other people (usually murder). :)

Edited October 26, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[Rumsy4]

I was wondering about why this season seems kinda blah so far, and I think it's because all the relationships in the Show are still so poorly developed. This is building on some things brought up in another thread. I have a hard time getting behind the big stakes the writers are setting up this season because I don't know what I'm supposed to fear the loss of. For example, Hook and Emma haven't had a normal moment in seasons (if ever-we didn't even get to sit in on their date for more than a moment). S5 had dialed up on the angst for that couple. And when the payoff came, it was a mere nothing. This season has begun with secrets and lies, and we are yet to see a carefree happy scene between the two of them, despite all the talk about netflix and hot rum. Even as a die-hard CS shipper, I can't muster up any enthusiasm for their relationship drama this season. It's always one crisis to another. 

Snow is all over the place this season. She stopped being a believable character. Her scenes are embarrassing to watch more often than not. And poor Charms never gets any decent storyarcs on his own.

The Hook/Charming bromance largely exist in fandom. So, if Hook was somehow responsible for David's dad death, and it's going to break the tenuous bond between them, why should I feel invested in that relationship? It's not like there's a deep bond there to be broken.

Spoiler

If the EQ! drives Henry from Hook, I can only feel sorry for Hook. Henry seemed to marginally care for him, but apparently the (not so) little brat going to join his grandfather in distrusting the "pirate" again.

Other than reinforce the fact that Hook's place in the Charming clan is still tentative, and solely based on his relationship to Emma, it does nothing. 

I could get behind Captain Book and Belle if I knew the writers actually cared about developing their friendship, and if I didn't suspect Belle will go running back to Rumple at the end of the season.

Regina and EQ will reintegrate, and everything Regina did as the EQ! half will be swept under the rug. Yay? 

Regina had/has a secret pash for Gold. I should care because...?

Zelena is temped to be "wicked" again. She is only fun when delivering the occasional zinger. Not when she is moping or being "wicked". Her only relationships are with the baby prop doll and EQ! Regina, who will disappear at the end of the season. 

Random characters from the LoUS -- after the lackluster Aladdin and Jasmine relationship and the early exit of Hyde, I could care less about them.

Spoiler

Robin was practically missing from S5, and I stopped caring about him 2 seasons back. Regina seems to have stopped caring for him. She didn't even have any proper scenes with him in 5B. Why should I care that he's going to be back temporarily? 

Without building a strong foundation in relationships, it's hard to care for a threat of their dissolution. This show has become so plot and angst-driven, there's been no room for lasting character development and relationship building. I feel like S5 should have been the last season, with the finale tying up loose ends. We're running on empty now.

[maryle]

Biggest reason why I never want the  new people to stay they barely focus on the main characters they have or the relationship between them realistically so everytime some new character is adding some others character will suffer. it is basic math Not that interesting in Robin back permanently neither.

So, if I wish Hyde park Jekyll storyline will have be more developed I am glad they both had not stay. Same about Aladdin and Jasmine I really hope their story will be good but I won't wish for neither to stay. I do not understanding also people wanting Lilly back. Closer we are of the ending of the show ( probably next year but...) I want the screen time mostly for the main characters booking their story.

I will add that in reality CS never had that much more focus than the others like everyone claimed.

Edited October 26, 2016 by maryle
Spelling

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Hook and Emma haven't had a normal moment in seasons (if ever-we didn't even get to sit in on their date for more than a moment). S5 had dialed up on the angst for that couple. And when the payoff came, it was a mere nothing. This season has begun with secrets and lies, and we are yet to see a carefree happy scene between the two of them, despite all the talk about netflix and hot rum.

I've been thinking about this. During a bout of asthma-induced insomnia when following mental rabbit trails was a good way to distract myself from the coughing reflex, I found myself imagining conversations between fictional people. In one of them, I was thinking about Belle asking Hook for the real story of what happened with him, Rumple, and Milah, now that she's ready to actually listen to him and believe him. As sometimes happens with characters who have strong voices, it sort of developed itself in my head, going off without me consciously "writing" it, with him getting a bit nostalgic about his adventures with Milah, and then saying wistfully that this may have been the happiest time in his life. That surprised Belle, who asked what about Emma, and after thinking about it, his response was that while he loves Emma, and he's fairly certain that his love for Emma is deeper than his love for Milah, based on the person he is now and what they've gone through together, they've never had the chance to be happy together. There's always been a crisis or something tearing them apart, always some secret. With Milah, they were both living a selfish, carefree life, so they were able to just do the things that made them happy.

Although this was a product of my addled brain, I think there's some truth to that. How are we supposed to feel concerned about what they might lose if the vision is true or if their various secrets come out when we've never seen them actually being happy together? We don't even know for sure if he's moved in officially, since the last we saw, his trunk was still on his ship. We haven't seen a peaceful domestic scene. We haven't seen the first somewhat awkward morning around the breakfast table with Emma, Hook, and Henry. We haven't seen them sitting at home in the evening. We don't even know for sure if they've ever slept together. All we've ever seen them do is have occasional romantic moments in the middle of fighting villains or struggling with inner darkness. It's not that we're necessarily dying to watch Emma and Hook watch Netflix. It's that we want to know what normal and happy look like with them so we know what's at stake.

And yet we have time for an extended scene of the Evil Queen and Zelena having a spa day and having the same conversation about whether or not Regina accepts Zelena's wickedness that they've had at least three times so far this season and once in this same episode, and again later in the same episode.

Meanwhile, we're supposed to feel bad about Emma hiding things from her parents when we've barely seen her have scenes with them. How do you "hide" something from someone you never interact with, and it's not because you're avoiding them but because your lives just don't intersect?

Belle and Hook haven't had that conversation about what happened with Rumple's first wife or with his first son -- stuff that's relevant to her current situation as she needs to think about her options, and Hook is really the only good source for that information. Ditto with Henry and Hook. They had that one conversation about Neal/Bae back in 3B when Hook had to be careful what he said because Henry didn't have his memories, but we don't know if there's been a follow-up in which Henry asked for the real story about how Hook knew Bae. We don't know what Henry really thinks about Hook moving in. We heard that they hunted for the house together, but was it really with the idea of Hook living there, or was it mostly about what would make Emma happy? The only thing we've heard Henry say on the subject of Hook was back in 4A when he said he wasn't okay with Emma dating Hook, but he wanted Emma to be happy. Has he changed his stance on that? We don't even know if he was all that sad about Hook's death or happy or sad that Hook was alive again.

If the Evil Queen is wanting to sow discord among the heroes, she's got her work cut out for her because right now, it's hard to see how anything she did would actually change the status quo in an obvious or meaningful way.

[Rumsy4]

18 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

If the Evil Queen is wanting to sow discord among the heroes, she's got her work cut out for her because right now, it's hard to see how anything she did would actually change the status quo in an obvious or meaningful way.

In a nutshell. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

And yet we have time for an extended scene of the Evil Queen and Zelena having a spa day and having the same conversation about whether or not Regina accepts Zelena's wickedness that they've had at least three times so far this season and once in this same episode, and again later in the same episode.

The whole "embrace yourself" lesson EQ was attempting to impart on Zelena was confusing. For one, it contradicts the "evil isn't born, it's made" mantra because it states that a person's wickedness is a fixed part of themselves. So, their evil is not a result of bad choices, but rather their fundamental nature. EQ had a point that Regina was not accepting her sister for who she was, but acceptance should be better defined. Regina can accept Zelena as a flawed person, but that doesn't mean she should be okay with cruelty. She should accept her sister in spite of her issues, but that's not what she's doing. She's giving her the cold shoulder because she doesn't meet a certain criteria. That's a problem with her as a character at large - she'd rather use morality for social validation instead of executing good intentions. Regina doesn't care about her sister. She only cares about keeping up an ideal.

Edited October 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

24 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina can accept Zelena as a flawed person, but that doesn't mean she should be okay with cruelty.

There is a rather disturbing treatment of darkness/wickedness/evil as an orientation or identity rather than as behavior in both the Zelena/Regina relationship and the Rumple/Belle relationship. It's like you have to accept them as they are, or you're in the wrong, even if "as they are" involves murder and deception. If someone is doing horrible things, do you really have to accept them as being the way they are? With Rumple and Belle, there is the sense that she loved an ideal without really acknowledging what he was, and so if she's facing what he is, she has to decide whether or not she loves that rather than saying she loves him even though she wants to change him. Though I'm not sure that's what the show is really saying. They seem to be suggesting that loving him means loving the whole man, and realizing that she doesn't love him because he is dark, evil, and has no intention of changing isn't an option. With Zelena and Regina, I'm not sure what the deal is because their conflict was so contrived and out of the blue. One moment they're sisters, then Regina blows up at Zelena over the arrow and blames her for Robin's death, then Zelena poofs away to sulk. It had nothing to do with Regina accepting or not accepting Zelena's wickedness, and Regina rejecting the side of herself that she blames for all her problems really had nothing to do with Zelena. I guess the narcissism runs strong in that family.

This show acts like not loving someone isn't an option, that if you ever loved someone, you always love that person, even if that person changes and is no longer the person you loved, even if that person hurts you, or even if that person was deceiving you (or you were deceiving yourself) and what you loved was never a real thing. If I watch someone I loved gleefully killing a person and they feel no remorse, my feelings are probably going to change.

I have to say that I kind of side with Regina right now. She did overreact about the arrow, and she bears some blame about what happened to Robin because she encouraged Zelena to trust Hades. She can't really get away with blaming Zelena for doing exactly what she told her to do (over Robin's objections). But she also doesn't yet have the kind of relationship where she owes Zelena much of anything, given what Zelena has already done to her. Zelena hasn't yet earned a benefit of the doubt. Regina has to accept flaws, but not the kind of stuff Zelena is currently doing. On the other hand, the shoe is kind of on the other foot, and Regina isn't giving the kind of treatment to Zelena that she expected from her own victims.

[KingOfHearts]

It frustrates me that Regina knows full well the Evil Queen is trying to manipulate Zelena, yet has done nothing about it. She just wrote her off. 

Quote

Regina has to accept flaws, but not the kind of stuff Zelena is currently doing

Regina isn't even aware that Zelena started being "wicked" for EQ, though. She's dismissing her sister for trusting Hades, losing the feather, getting huffy over mistrust, and not coming forward with her meetings with EQ. Those are more like flaws than wicked deeds. Why was she so protective of her in 5B, but nonchalant so far in S6? She's made no effort to make amends or protect her from the evil she knows so well about. It comes off as uncaring.

I'm still wondering if Zelena is just trying to go double agent or stay on the fence. She did avoid killing Jiminy. She hasn't really been given much reason to become good. (Especially from how Regina has treated her.)

Edited October 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

She's made no effort to make amends or protect her from the evil she knows so well about. It comes off as uncaring.

And foolish. She knows her sister has wicked tendencies, terrible self-esteem, and abandonment issues. Zelena had barely tipped over onto the side of good and could very easily tip the other way. Regina knows there's another version of herself, the evil side, out there. So what does she do? Abandon her sister, leaving her vulnerable to the evil version of herself who's willing to encourage the wicked tendencies and at least act like she cares. So they're getting two villains with magical powers for the price of one when they could have had an ally if Regina had been able to show some caring and patience. Under normal circumstances, I would say that she doesn't have to accept Zelena's wickedness, but when it comes to keeping her from teaming up with their enemy, it's smart to keep Zelena on their side by showing some compassion.

[Rumsy4]

After the lasagne/Cora debacle, Regina and the rest of Team Stupid Hero ought to know Zelena is a potential loose cannon ripe for the EQ's plucking.

[KingOfHearts]

In Zelena's eyes, the heroes have incarcerated her, forceably removed her voice, and taken away her baby on more than one occasion. From her perspective, there's not much reason to trust them. Meanwhile, EQ has given her attention, compliments, and hasn't demanded she change. Heck, she even got her a free babysitter. Of course Zelena is going to side with EQ.

This show really fails to give villains any good incentive to redeem themselves. Not that villains should always turn good, but this show puts a great deal of emphasis on redemption. (Especially when it comes to main characters like Regina, Rumple and Zelena.)

Edited October 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

After the lasagne/Cora debacle, Regina and the rest of Team Stupid Hero ought to know Zelena is a potential loose cannon ripe for the EQ's plucking.

These "heroes" can't focus on more than one thing at a time.  They couldn't even look for Aladdin AND Archie at the same time.  Zelena is a third wildcard they should be looking into, plus finding out if any more Untold Stories people could be manipulated, plus putting more protection spells to keep out the Evil Queen.  

[KingOfHearts]

Back in 4A, Emma was about to walk into Granny's and ask Hook out on a date. She asked Henry, "Are you sure you're okay with this?" to which he replied, "No, but I want you to be happy." It was never really explored why Henry answered that way. It was just out of the blue. Then when the Shattered Sight spell happened, he called Hook a "dirty pirate" and said, "I never liked you, and I like you even less now that you and my mom are together." So, obviously, he has some disdain for him deep inside. Is it because he feels he's replacing Neal? Is it he's a "villain"? The world may never know.

The writers take every opportunity for Henry to mention or praise Neal. I have no problem with him remembering his dad in a positive light. But it's gotten to be where there's a retcon on how much "fathering" Neal really did. We saw them interact so little, but apparently they went on a secret quest to destroy magic? To me, Neal gets more credit than he ought and Hook doesn't get enough. Hook's got his problems but his triumphs are rarely acknowledged by anyone but Emma and Belle.

I would be more understanding of Henry if we knew why he wasn't a Captain Swan shipper. He was totally fine with Outlaw Queen, oddly enough. OTOH, he did help Hook plan out Operation Light Swan. So which is it? If he had a change of heart, when did that happen? What caused it?

Edited October 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[orza]

Kids don't have to like the people their parents date. It happens a lot and that's ok. It's a much bigger problem when a parent wants to start an insta-family with the current love interest without regard for how the kids feel about it. Hook is the guy who has been dating Emma for a relatively short time. Emma rushing to move him in just makes him her live-in boyfriend, not some kind of father figure to Henry. Henry can like or dislike whomever he wants. He is under no obligation to like Emma's boyfriend. Being a good sport about Emma dating a man he doesn't care for and even going on a few outings with him is very different than the guy moving in and having to constantly put up with him at home. I can understand why Henry is not a happy camper.

Edited October 28, 2016 by orza

[KingOfHearts]

12 minutes ago, orza said:

Kids don't have to like the people their parents date. It happens a lot and that's ok. It's a much bigger problem when a parent wants to start an insta-family with the current love interest without regard for how the kids feel about it. Hook is the guy who has been dating Emma for a relatively short time. Emma rushing to move him in just makes him her live-in boyfriend, not some kind of father figure to Henry. Henry can like or dislike whomever he wants. He is under no obligation to like Emma's boyfriend. Being a good sport about Emma dating a man he doesn't care for and even going on a few outings with him is very different than the guy moving in and having to constantly put up with him at home. I can understand why Henry is not a happy camper.

It's not difficult to picture why Henry wouldn't be happy. But, that element has just sort of been there. His opinion of Hook changes according to whatever the plot needs. Show, don't tell. We've never seen Emma sit down with Henry and discuss her new relationship. We've never seen Henry explain why he feels the way he feels. We can fill the gaps pretty easily, but it's so important to him as a character that a cutting remark once in a while just doesn't do it justice. Again, the characters feel a certain way but the show doesn't bother to investigate it. Henry comes off as a whiny because of the shallow storytelling surrounding him.

Edited October 28, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[orza]

This is such a common experience nowadays that it shouldn't need a whole lot of exposition. A lot of people know kids in this position. The kids seem to get along with mom's boyfriend ok until she tries to move him in then all hell breaks loose and the kids want to go live with dad or grandma. It really is not difficult at all to fill in the blanks here. They only have 42 minutes to tell a story so I don't need to have every piddling little thing that I can figure out for myself shown on screen. If the show spent time elaborating and showing how all the characters feel about everything there would be no time for any kind of story.

[Mathius]

8 minutes ago, orza said:

If the show spent time elaborating and showing how all the characters feel about everything there would be no time for any kind of story.

No, but when the story has gotten as dull as it has, I think showing how the characters feel about everything is preferable. 

Or, to put it another way, I'd rather have characters I care about with no story than a story with no characters I care about.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

I have no problem with Henry not being crazy about Hook moving in. It's natural for a teen to have some resistance to a parent's new significant other. My problem is that they haven't really established what Henry's relationship to Hook is supposed to be. If we track what we've seen:

• 3B: Hook is the main "babysitter" for Henry, and they hang out and talk during the time Henry doesn't have his real memories. Hook consoles Henry after Neal's death and tries to tell him about his father when he was about Henry's age. Hook tries to help Henry run away, then defends him from the flying monkeys. When Henry talks to Archie about finding a house for himself and Emma, he talks about wanting something with a view of the sea. When Emma freaks out about the "moving to New York" question yet again, Henry sends Hook after her, giving him the book.
• 4A: When Emma asks if Henry's okay with her dating Hook, he says he isn't but wants her to be happy, and he physically shoves her toward Hook to ask him out. We're told that Hook and Henry are spending the day sailing together offscreen. While under the influence of the Shattered Sight spell, Henry calls Hook a dirty pirate and says he never liked him.
• 4B: In the AU, Henry goes straight to Hook for help and tells him he had a great sailing teacher -- him. He seems truly distressed when he sees Hook killed so that Henry and Emma can escape from the evil Charmings.
• 5A: Henry and Hook team up to try to get Zelena's help to get them to Emma. We're told that Henry and Hook worked together offscreen on Operation Light Swan, finding a house for after they save Emma. This house has a view of the sea. Henry seems truly distressed to see Hook killed, and he insists on going to the Underworld to save Hook.
• 5B: Henry has no real reaction to the news that Hook is dead for good or to Hook's return from the dead.
• 6: Emma, Henry, and Hook are hanging out together, talking about the newcomers, Hook and Henry practice swordfighting together, and work together to find and help Cinderella. Henry talks to Hook about needing to have a movie night. We never see any discussion between Henry and Emma about Hook moving in and have no idea what Henry thinks about it.

So, it's hard to say what Henry thinks. Sometimes they act like they've developed a close relationship offscreen. Sometimes they act like there's no relationship. It's all over the map.

I do think Emma should have talked to Henry, but then again, if Henry picked out the house with Hook, wouldn't that imply that Henry was okay with Hook living there? And there's the fact that Henry doesn't live with Emma full-time. He splits his time with Regina. How much say does Henry get about what Emma does in her house when he doesn't live there all the time.

[Camera One]

The writers take every opportunity for Henry to mention or praise Neal. I have no problem with him remembering his dad in a positive light. But it's gotten to be where there's a retcon on how much "fathering" Neal really did. We saw them interact so little, but apparently they went on a secret quest to destroy magic? To me, Neal gets more credit than he ought and Hook doesn't get enough.

It is human nature to miss what/who's gone and take for granted who's there/around.  The Writers have a reason to create conflict with Hook when the need arises - because Hook is there and this provides tension onscreen.  Neal is gone so he can be mentioned positively and as an afterthought.  Retcons like the secret quest to destroy magic isn't made for Neal's benefit.  It was written to fit with the plot of the week.

His opinion of Hook changes according to whatever the plot needs.

Yes.  This is the reason why it is a problem.  

[KAOS Agent]

59 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Retcons like the secret quest to destroy magic isn't made for Neal's benefit.  It was written to fit with the plot of the week.

Neal involving Henry in his super secret quest to destroy magic actually puts Neal in a bad light. He specifically told Henry not to tell his mother about it, which considering both Emma and Regina are magical, is a pretty nasty secret to keep from them. If Neal had succeeded, he'd be taking something special away from them both and he wanted Henry to keep that a secret. That's a big deal. That's not the let's not tell mommy that daddy got a speeding ticket kind of secret. Now this secret must have occurred in S2, so Neal didn't know Emma had magic, but Henry did. Not to mention that people like the Blue Fairy and Maleficent and August and probably others would also be affected by this. This was a retcon that the writers didn't think through, but it makes Neal into an ass and Henry even more of one for continuing to carry it out.

[Camera One]

The Writers had set their "minds" on Henry turning heads and minds at a New York City fountain, and they wanted a Regina-Emma road trip, so that's the extent of the "thinking" they did.  

Edited October 29, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Neal knew Emma had magic in season 2. Remember the line of chalk Emma drew as a protection spell against Cora? It definitely makes him a jerk.

I still cringe at the New York library having the "anti-grail". And the fountain scene. The whole finale was cringeworthy.

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, KAOS Agent said:

Now this secret must have occurred in S2, so Neal didn't know Emma had magic, but Henry did.

Neal learned really quickly that she had magic. His first reaction to her using magic was when she set up protective boundaries to hold Cora off from Rumple as long as possible while Snow was off trying to set up the candle thing. Neal freaked out at Emma using magic, and that was as soon as they got back to Storybrooke while Rumple was dying. I seriously doubt he'd managed a "destroy magic, but don't tell your mother" quest with Henry the brief time they were in New York or on the pirate ship on the way back to Storybrooke while Rumple was dying.

Really, all the retconned info about things Neal supposedly told Henry or did with Henry only end up making him look worse to me. The tips on how to pick up women would have been really inappropriate for an 11-year-old. Neal had no way of knowing he was going to die, so it wasn't like he was cramming all of his fatherly life lessons in as quickly as possible. I could maybe see him talking about getting an idea to try to destroy magic as part of his explanation for why he hadn't ever looked Emma up -- he hated magic so much that he once tried to find a way to destroy it, and that explains why he stayed away from Emma, since she was a link to the magical world. We only saw Neal try to teach Henry some swordfighting stuff, and there's a deleted scene where he talks about sailing a pirate ship. He spent a lot of the time he was in Storybrooke with Tamara, so there wasn't much time for Neal to have told Henry as much as they're saying he did.

As for reading between the lines and not needing to see everything spelled out (I'd have to go back a page to quote it) ... that's fine, if you're given enough information to figure things out accurately. If you've got enough points plotted onscreen to make a pattern, you can generally make a good guess at what happened offscreen. The problem with Henry and Hook is that there is no pattern. You've got evidence to support a guess either way. You could say that Henry dislikes Hook, isn't happy about him dating Emma, and wouldn't want him moving in with them, and you could find onscreen evidence to support that. You could also say that Henry wants to make a home and family with Hook being part of it and is looking forward to all of them being at home together, and you could find onscreen evidence to support that. It's not even a line of progression, where all the evidence for dislike is earlier and it's progressed since then, so that the most recent evidence supports Henry liking Hook. From 5A to the present, there's a mix of signals, with them choosing the house together but also with Henry showing no emotion about Hook as a person -- he was distressed at watching the stabbing and collapse, but I imagine that would be hard to watch even if you didn't know the person, but otherwise showed no grief about losing Hook and no joy at reuniting with him, either in the Underworld or after he came back to life. In that case, yeah, we need a scene to tell us what's going on with Henry -- is he looking forward to him moving in or does he resent the outsider barging in on the house Henry only just got into with Emma?

[Camera One]

It depends on what's needed next for the plot.  If another of The Evil Queen's nefarious schemes is to turn Henry against Hook, we'll get another dirty pirate redux, but don't worry, they'll be a happy melded family by the time the heartwarming finale rolls around.  Before they realize Governor Radcliffe is at the town line and is singing the usual ode to Storybrooke, "Mine Mine Mine".

[YaddaYadda]

9 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

Neal involving Henry in his super secret quest to destroy magic actually puts Neal in a bad light. He specifically told Henry not to tell his mother about it, which considering both Emma and Regina are magical, is a pretty nasty secret to keep from them. If Neal had succeeded, he'd be taking something special away from them both and he wanted Henry to keep that a secret. 

My favorite part in all of this is how Henry tears into Emma for keeping secrets and lying. But he doesn't have a problem going along with "you can't tell your mom" that I'm on a mission to destroy magic. 

[KingOfHearts]

Other than plot needs, I think the mission to destroy magic was supposed to highlight the "bond" between Neal and Henry. Their lives were both heavily impacted in a negative way by magic. I doubt much thought was put into it, however I'm more than assured the writers intended to be in a positive light. Henry's entire scheme in the finale was supposed to be good intentions gone wrong. (When in reality it was him screwing up things selfishly.) Poor little guy sees his moms arguing.. he just wants everyone to loooove!

Edited October 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts