Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KingOfHearts]

The Rumple/EQ stuff felt incest-y to me, even though they're not technically related by blood. There's a lot of ick: He had been with her mother and her sister, he's married with a child on the way, she's a rapist, he's a father figure to her and he's her son's grandfather. Remember Graham and crypt sex? Yeah, it's pretty gross.

Edited October 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

I'm really disappointed in this show's portrayal of sex=evil. Characters who are actually in loving relationships aren't allowed to have sex appeal and get cockblocked by dirigibles, but we have to watch the Evil Queen and Rumple grope all over each other?

[Shanna Marie]

21 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Belle and Lt. Jones--nah...she wouldn't be interested.

I don't know ... she didn't reject Gaston because he was too nice, but because he tortured the ogre (never mind that she still loves Rumple after watching him torture and brutalize people). Lt. Jones is pretty much the cover model for Her Handsome Hero, and after she got to know him, she'd have seen just enough darkness to keep her interested, since he was pretty damaged.

I agree that I can't see Belle and Hook together. There's way too much baggage there, stuff they may be able to move past as friends but that would be a problem in a more intimate relationship. But I do think there's plenty of potential to play with in a friendship. I'd love to see them tackle a Da Vinci Code type story together. There are lots of fairy tales and myths that involve answering riddles to obtain something, and those two would make a good team for that, with both of them able to read foreign languages, his extensive travel experience (and the knowledge that comes from it), her extensive reading, her analytical ability, his instincts and creative thinking.

I think a lot of the weirdness of the Rumple and Belle relationship comes from the same thing they did with Regina in season two, with showing more evil in the past while trying to be sympathetic in the present (and yet also doing bad stuff in the present). Belle being like movie Belle with Rumple in the role of Beast worked in "Skin Deep." But then we learned that Rumple murdered Bae's mother, and Belle learned that later (after he lied and withheld the truth). We saw that Rumple threw Belle in the dungeon at first and that she spent the nights crying her eyes out, so she didn't go straight to being a saucy maid who wasn't at all afraid of him. We saw that she knew that he was flaying Robin alive. We saw him lie to her and hide things from her. There was all the stuff she watched him do as Lacey. Movie Belle would have ditched her Beast if he'd done that kind of stuff. Any one of those things would have sent movie Belle fleeing. They're trying to keep her as that character while his character is going in an opposite direction from the movie Beast. Instead of getting better, he's getting worse. She may be saying that now, but I'll be surprised if she's not back with him before the end of the season after he does one nice thing and makes a good speech to her (and meanwhile, there's some secret he's keeping that she doesn't know about yet).

[Rumsy4]

For once, an Eddy quote I can get behind. Apparently at the NYCC comic con, he said that Regina is closer to Snow.

[Mathius]

On 10/5/2016 at 5:49 PM, Shanna Marie said:

I don't know ... she didn't reject Gaston because he was too nice, but because he tortured the ogre (never mind that she still loves Rumple after watching him torture and brutalize people).

No, she didn't reject him outright after that, she still accepted his proposal because it would help her people and she seemed like she was going to give Gaston another chance because, like Rumple later, if she could "fix" him she would be living up to the idealistic hero standards that were set in her favorite book.  Hence why she said in the Underworld that she "failed with Gaston before" when speaking of how she hoped to talk him down.

It's just that when Rumple came along, she found an even better chance of helping her people and having someone to "fix".

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For once, an Eddy quote I can get behind. Apparently at the NYCC comic con, he said that Regina is closer to Snow.

In direct response to a SQer, no less, he was saying she was closer to Snow than she is to Emma.

Sadly, he could also say that Snow is closer to Regina than she is to Emma and I could totally believe it at this point.

Edited October 8, 2016 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

I am really surprised at all the flak Belle's getting from Rumbelle fans these days. It started around Season 4, and it has steadily increased over the last season, and is at its height right now. I by no means have the pulse of the Rumbelle faction of OUAT--I'm just going by the few Rumbellers I follow on tumblr, podcasters, and the imdb board which has a lot of Rumbelle fans. 

In S5, the argument was that Belle "knew" what she was getting into with Rumple and she fell in love when he was the Dark One. So, she should be okay with it now as well. Basically, the same argument Rumple used. Now, apparently she is being mean and cruel to Rumple. 

I do think Belle was attracted to Rumple's power, but at the same time, she doesn't want to be with someone who remains that way. Her fantasy has always been to reform the "bad boy" with her love. She has finally woken up to realize that you can't force people to change who they are. If she remains with Rumple the Dark One, she is enabling him. In the UW, she was still seeking Rumple's help, and it just made things worse for other people (Gaston, Zelena, even Pan). Now, she is finally making a stand against even getting help from him. I have a feeling Rumple will only escalate his controlling behavior to try to get her back. I want Belle to remain strong and refuse to cave-in to Rumple's threats and manipulations. But ultimately, I don't have much hope that Rumbelle is done for good. They'll inevitably get back together by the end of the season.

[Camera One]

Rumple was acting like a jerk of massive proportions so I'm surprised people are angry at Belle.  It would also be more satisfying to see Belle treating Rumple like this, if we didn't get yet another reconciliation at the end of 5A and throughout 5B.  

Edited October 19, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

There's nothing shocking about this. This is like when people started calling Skylar a bitch on Breaking Bad and wishing her dead because she was so mean to poor, poor, POOR Walter.

Belle is within her right to tear Rumple a new one. The way he pushed Jekyll put her and her child directly in harm's way.

Also, women are allowed to change their minds on the men they married and vice versa. That's what divorce is for. But in this show, Belle will go back to Rumple because she'll need him to protect Damien, she'll probably fall in love with him all over again, and we'll be back right where we started.

[Amerilla]

12 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

There's nothing shocking about this. This is like when people started calling Skylar a bitch on Breaking Bad and wishing her dead because she was so mean to poor, poor, POOR Walter.

 

Blaming women for not supporting their flawed mates is truly the Tale As Old As Time.

[Geeni]

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This is like when people started calling Skylar a bitch on Breaking Bad and wishing her dead because she was so mean to poor, poor, POOR Walter.

Don't get me started on this or my baby, Tara Knowles. Or any of the women on Mad Men. 

 

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she'll probably fall in love with him all over again, and we'll be back right where we started.

 

While I 100% agree with this, one can't help who they love. But as we see in real life and occasionally in the well-written TV relationships, love isn't enough. There needs to be respect, communication, honesty, and more for a relationship. All qualities that Rumbelle lacks. Belle may or may not still love Rumple, because it takes awhile for feelings themselves to fade - or so I've heard.

 

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I am really surprised at all the flak Belle's getting from Rumbelle fans these days. It started around Season 4, and it has steadily increased over the last season, and is at its height right now. I by no means have the pulse of the Rumbelle faction of OUAT--I'm just going by the few Rumbellers I follow on tumblr, podcasters, and the imdb board which has a lot of Rumbelle fans. 

From what I notice, a lot of the hate for her comes not only because she stopped taking Rumple's crap, but because she's friends with Hook, even though he has now sincerely apologized. I see Rumbellers whining that she's friends with the people who have abused her once, Hook, Regina, and Zelena (did I miss something? when did Zelena do anything to Belle?). And they're conveniently forgetting all the abuse Rumple put her through as well and still is even now (or maybe they didn't forget). 

Like mostly everyone else, I do find Hook/Belle's friendship more genuine than Regina/Emma and even Regina/Snow. Or Regina/anyone really. They're a lot of fun together, and the actors have great chemistry. 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Geeni

[Curio]

After Rumple made the comment about Belle loving him only out of necessity, I can't see how the writers plan on ever repairing those two. I mean, we all know that Belle will eventually cave again, but for the meantime, I'm enjoying Belle's character for the first time in forever because she's actually standing up for herself against Rumple and Emilie seems to be more engaging when she's allowed to be a little angry.

I can't believe I'm saying this...but...I could actually see Regina and Rumple as a thing? I thought I saw some kind of twisted relationship forming between them in the early seasons but didn't think much of it, but now the writers have randomly decided to go from 0 to 60 with those two. Are we looking at an impending Rumple/Regina/Belle love triangle in the future?

[KingOfHearts]

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After Rumple made the comment about Belle loving him only out of necessity, I can't see how the writers plan on ever repairing those two. I mean, we all know that Belle will eventually cave again, but for the meantime, I'm enjoying Belle's character for the first time in forever because she's actually standing up for herself against Rumple and Emilie seems to be more engaging when she's allowed to be a little angry.

For the first time, it looks Rumple will be working against Belle. As EQ foreshadowed, he's getting tired of her not accepting him. He only wants her now for the family unit. I'm glad to see both of them getting angry at the other. It's been a long time coming. Belle is by no means as bad as he is, but she has held the carrot out on a stick for too long. Now that she has dropped him completely, he's only being lured by Damien. (And he doesn't have to play nice for that.)

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I can't believe I'm saying this...but...I could actually see Regina and Rumple as a thing? I thought I saw some kind of twisted relationship forming between them in the early seasons but didn't think much of it, but now the writers have randomly decided to go from 0 to 60 with those two. Are we looking at an impending Rumple/Regina/Belle love triangle in the future?

I can stomach EQ's twisted lust, but I couldn't take Regina without a whole lot more ick. That would make Rumple both Henry's grandfather and his potential stepdad. From father figure to boyfriend... I just can't go for that.

Edited October 20, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Geeni said:

But as we see in real life and occasionally in the well-written TV relationships, love isn't enough. There needs to be respect, communication, honesty, and more for a relationship.

Agree. Rumple has been dishonest with Belle right from the start of their relationship in Storybrooke. Like when he promised not to kill Regina, but used a loophole to summon the wraith to do the job for him. Their engagement was started on a lie--he used her as his alibi with the fake Dagger. He is always either freezing her or putting her to sleep or imprisoning her. He put her in a relationship with him in the storybook AU against her knowledge. He's more like an overbearing and controlling father than a husband/lover. The power differential between them is absurd. Poor Belle. I guess it is true that some women fall in love with people who resemble their fathers. Neither man has truly respected her wishes or her agency.

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From what I notice, a lot of the hate for her comes not only because she stopped taking Rumple's crap, but because she's friends with Hook, even though he has now sincerely apologized. I see Rumbellers whining that she's friends with the people who have abused her once, Hook, Regina, and Zelena (did I miss something? when did Zelena do anything to Belle?). And they're conveniently forgetting all the abuse Rumple put her through as well and still is even now (or maybe they didn't forget). 

What some people don't seem to acknowledge is Belle is married to none of the others. Hook is I believe truly a friend to Belle now. But even though friendships can be deep and strong, it's not like being married. If Hook betrayed her trust now, Belle would be hurt, but it's not the same as being betrayed by a romantic partner. Zelena enslaved Rumple, and decommissioned Belle in the hospital in 3B when she tried to stand up to Zelena. I guess people are thinking of that when they blame Belle for getting the Sleeping Curse from Zelena. Never mind Rumple himself allied with Zelena in 4B to get the potion for his heart from her. 

1 hour ago, Curio said:

I can't believe I'm saying this...but...I could actually see Regina and Rumple as a thing? I thought I saw some kind of twisted relationship forming between them in the early seasons but didn't think much of it, but now the writers have randomly decided to go from 0 to 60 with those two. Are we looking at an impending Rumple/Regina/Belle love triangle in the future?

 

29 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I can stomach EQ's twisted lust, but I couldn't take Regina without a whole lot more ick. That would make Rumple both Henry's grandfather and his potential stepdad. From father figure to boyfriend... I just can't go for that.

I can't see Rumple and Regina seriously getting together. Nor do I think Rumple (or Regina, for that matter) will ever be interested. But it is possible that Rumple may use EQ's twisted attraction/lust towards him to taunt Belle. He will fall flat on his face, of course. 

Edited October 20, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I can't see Rumple and Regina seriously getting together. Nor do I think Rumple (or Regina, for that matter) will ever be interested. But it is possible that Rumple may use EQ's twisted attraction/lust towards him to taunt Belle. He will fall flat on his face, of course. 

 

I don't ever see Regina and Rumple actually working as a couple, but I could see a weird and brief affair happening. I think what everyone seems to be glossing over is that the writers are essentially confirming that Regina has some lustful thoughts about Rumple. We can try and play the blame game all day and say it's just the Evil Queen using sexuality as a weapon, but when the writers go out of their way to make both the Evil Queen and Regina compliment Rumple's looks, there are probably some hidden feelings here. Since the Evil Queen and Regina are the same person, and the Evil Queen is the parts of Regina likes to hide from the world, that means Regina has been hiding her feelings about Rumple and that "regular" Regina has probably thought the things the Evil Queen is finally acting upon.

[Shanna Marie]

24 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

What some people don't seem to acknowledge is Belle is married to none of the others. Hook is I believe truly a friend to Belle now. But even though friendships can be deep and strong, it's not like being married. If Hook betrayed her trust now, Belle would be hurt, but it's not the same as being betrayed by a romantic partner.

Yeah, there's a big difference between a total stranger harming you when it wasn't personal and then getting to know that person and later becoming friends after he apologizes, changes, and works to help you and your husband lying to you, deceiving you, and causing harm to come to you. Plus, Rumple was the reason Hook harmed her, just as Rumple was the reason Jekyll and Hyde wanted to harm her. She keeps getting hurt because she's an easy target for all the people Rumple has harmed who can't get back at him because of his power. She's the one who has to pay for Rumple's past crimes. She was imprisoned by Regina as a way to punish Rumple, attacked by Hook as a way to punish Rumple, given a false identity by Regina as a way to punish Rumple, had to fight back against Gaston because he was angry at Rumple, her child was potentially deeded to Hades because of Rumple, she was taken hostage by the Queens of Darkness because of Rumple, her difficulties with her father are because of Rumple's treatment of him, and she was attacked by Jekyll because of Rumple. In that case, Rumple's insistence on controlling her life nearly got her killed because she was trapped with Jekyll, and she's lucky that a former enemy was around and willing to help her in spite of what Rumple has done to him (over, and over, and over again). If I'm her, I'm more likely to side with the person who actually saved my life than the person who was the reason my life was in danger and who was the reason the person who saved me hurt me in the past.

About the only bad thing that's happened to Belle that wasn't in any way Rumple's fault was getting tied up by the Darling hipsters. And, unfortunately, her breaking with him doesn't stop it because it's all about how much he cares for her. As long as he cares, she's a target, even if she wants nothing to do with him. Really, that plan to drive off into the outside world was the most brilliant idea she's had.

[Geeni]

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but when the writers go out of their way to make both the Evil Queen and Regina compliment Rumple's looks, there are probably some hidden feelings here.

I don't think feelings, really. I think it's more like she wants her mentor's approval, she wants to impress him, and at the same time she thinks he's hot (in. I'm assuming, his Gold form) so that's a plus for her. I don't think it's anything serious, though if they went there it wouldn't surprise me because TW;TS, etc.

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About the only bad thing that's happened to Belle that wasn't in any way Rumple's fault

I'm probably blanking out but didn't she finally acknowledge that in this past episode? If so, I'm glad she's aware, even if it won't stop her from inevitably going back to him.

 

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What some people don't seem to acknowledge is Belle is married to none of the others.

Taking this to the Fandom thread.

[TheGreenKnight]

5 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yeah, there's a big difference between a total stranger harming you when it wasn't personal

How is trying to murder someone not personal? And he attempted it 3 different times. That's even worse than what Regina's done to her.

I guess I can see Rumbelle fans' argument from the perspective of her being unbelievably roommate buddies with Hook even if I find Rumpel repulsive and Belle's taking-back-her-power scenes to be the only time she's enjoyable. I'm guessing a lot of the dislike of Belle's relationship with Hook from Rumbelle fans has to do with the way that relationship has to be viewed for someone to be a fan of it at all--that Rumpel is a tragic figure who's been twisted into evil by becoming the Dark One and having been abandoned by a harpy wife* for another man because she thought he was a coward instead of believing what he said about the prophecy. (I don't necessarily view Rumpel that way, but I'd have to interpret the show that way in order to really support Rumbelle as a relationship.) That's why watching Belle be friends with the man who indirectly helped to turn Rumpel into the person Belle now rejects would definitely make a Rumbelle fan salty. The appeal of the B&tB relationship is that the good woman will "save" the lost man. The show seemed to be following that trajectory for a while and they probably will course-correct soon, but having Belle give up on Rumpel and denigrate him (while deserved, imo) is pretty much the antithesis of the concept that would make someone a fan of that relationship in the first place. That's why I think a large number of Rumbellers likely quit the show in 4B.

*I do think Milah was a horrible wife even if Rumpel is awful.

[Mari]

2 hours ago, TheGreenKnight said:

How is trying to murder someone not personal? And he attempted it 3 different times. That's even worse than what Regina's done to her.

Not trying to defend the Hook/Belle relationship;  I definitely have mixed feelings about that.  But, there's a difference between a deeply personal betrayal like she's received from Rumple several times, and the "it's just business" attack that she had from Hook--especially since, in the meantime, she's finally figured out that he had at least a few points when it comes to Rumple.  Plus, Belle's caused some harm to people since then, and might better understand Hook's perspective and why he'd have been so angry and desperate.

It doesn't mean I think they should be besties.  I don't.  But I can understand why she'd reassess her previous interactions with Hook, and reassess Hook after he started to treat her differently.

As for Belle's relationship to Regina?  Regina hasn't made any particular effort;  Hook apparently has.  That might count for something, to Belle.

[Shanna Marie]

21 minutes ago, Mari said:

But, there's a difference between a deeply personal betrayal like she's received from Rumple several times, and the "it's just business" attack that she had from Hook

I was more comparing the "it's just business" attack on Belle from Hook to the deeply personal attacks from Regina to Snow, with subsequent friendships. Hook may have not respected Belle a lot because of her loyalty to Rumple, but in the times he attacked her, his animosity was for Rumple. He didn't have any particular enmity toward Belle. He was attacking her because, as he put it, she was where Rumple kept his heart. She was collateral damage. He didn't hold a grudge against her or want to destroy her. On the other hand, Regina hated Snow with a passion, wanted to destroy her life and her happiness, didn't believe she could be happy as long as Snow was alive, hated her so much that she was willing to kill her own father in order to have a way to hurt Snow, blamed Snow for everything that went wrong in her life. So, if Snow can be best friends with Regina when all the horrible things Regina did to her were deeply personal and specifically targeted at her, it's not that weird that Belle and Hook can have what amounts to a civil working relationship. It's not like they're really hanging out for fun. They had drinks together once when she was commiserating with him about loving a Dark One, but otherwise their relationship isn't that personal or friendly. They've teamed up on projects for the greater good. She didn't come specifically to him for help. She went to Granny's looking for a room and he offered to help. He's giving her shelter because he believes he owes it to her because he hurt her, but I don't think he rushed to the rescue and fought off Jekyll for any personal reasons. It's something he would have done for anyone, particularly someone he promised to protect.

[Dianthus]

Oh, FFS! Again with this sh!t about Regina being less awful to Belle than Hook was, and that should completely trump any other considerations of how those relationships are currently playing out. Did Regina offer to help Belle? No. Hook did. She saved his life from her rotten-hearted husband, and now Hook's saved her life from Jekyll.

The writers clearly aren't interested in writing Book Queen (Evil Book?). So what should they do? I can see it now: Belle just randomly goes up to Regina in the middle of a scene about something else entirely and tells Regina how sorry she is for accepting Hook's offer of assistance over her non-existent one. Does she beg Regina for her lasagna recipe just to ease Regina's tender fee-fees? SMH!

[InsertWordHere]

57 minutes ago, Dianthus said:

Oh, FFS! Again with this sh!t about Regina being less awful to Belle than Hook was, and that should completely trump any other considerations of how those relationships are currently playing out

I personally think they were both equally awful to her, but I also think the poster should be free to express their opinion. I can definitely see why some would feel that imprisonment is less awful than attempted murder. I wouldn't be offended by Belle and Regina becoming friends, just as I'm not offended by Hook and Belle being friends. Maybe I would have been more bothered by it back in season one or two when negative actions still had consequences, but that was before Emma watched her mother being burnt at the stake and apologized to the one who did it.

[Camera One]

For me, it's whether the Writers developed the friendship in a believable way, and to a lesser extent, whether the chemistry of the actors are there.

I think they did a reasonable job with building a reason for the beginnings of the Hook-Belle friendship, when they were both working together to free the Fairies, both feeling guilty and partially responsible for what happened.  That basis allows me to buy what Hook is doing for Belle now.  It doesn't hurt that the actors actually do have chemistry together.

On the other hand, I still cannot buy the "friendship" between Regina and Snow.  I find it even more difficult to swallow than Regina and Emma (who I could see becoming cautious allies - not necessarily friends - in 3A, but after seeing The Evil Queen in the flesh and outright murdering her mother in the 3B finale... uh, no).  

There would be no basis for a friendship between Regina and Belle, at least not under the current circumstances.  Just like there's no basis for a friendship right now between, let's say Hook and Zelena.  Character relationships need to be built on and developed, organically, and in general, this show doesn't do that well.  Often, their relationship building feels forced.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Camera One

[InsertWordHere]

8 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 Just like there's no basis for a friendship right now between, let's say Hook and Zelena.  

I know you were just using those two as a random example but I actually do think there could be something there going by the rules of this show, by which I mean, what's a little murdering and cursing between friends? Zelena has cursed Hook, had Rumple drown him and tie him up in a trunk, and was partially responsible for his mortal wound from Excalibur. Hook freed her when Dark Swan wanted to murder her and she gave him his memories back. They even had a weird truce when Hook suddenly reverted to darkest Dark One to ever dark. I'm not saying I think they should be best buddies or anything, as I mostly think their relationship would really just be Hook/Regina-lite, but there is some groundwork for them to be squabbling buddies, which I think is what the writers were going for when they were in the Land of Untold Stories together. 

[Camera One]

I mean, what's a little murdering and cursing between friends?

LOL.  That really is true with this show.  I mean, even the headline couple CS isn't immune from that.

[Curio]

The main issue is the double standards on this show. Nearly every single romantic or platonic couple in the main cast has either tried to kill, successfully killed, physically hurt, mentally abused, or lied to each other. So when a villain comes to town and does the same thing, the main cast looks extremely hypocritical because they all form an alliance against this person who does "bad things," but they conveniently forget they do those exact same things to each other. 

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

I find it even more difficult to swallow than Regina and Emma (who I could see becoming cautious allies - not necessarily friends - in 3A, but after seeing The Evil Queen in the flesh and outright murdering her mother in the 3B finale... uh, no).  

 

3 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

but that was before Emma watched her mother being burnt at the stake and apologized to the one who did it.

Pretty much the uncrossable line for me as well. It made me think less of Emma too. The REC ruins good characterization all around. 

With Hook and Belle, I'm fully on-board their friendship this season more than the previous ones. You can see them being comfortably casual around each other, and they have great actor chemistry. I would never ship them romantically, but that scene on the JR in S2 where Hook explains his motivation for revenge against Rumple waa one of the hottest scenes in the show (I think Colin's Hook could have chemistry with a rock). I believe this friendship more than the non-existant Captain Charming. 

Regina's friendships are always unequal, and not entirely based on honest foundations (re: Graham). Snow's weird obsession with mothering Regina comes across more like misplaced guilt. Emma's friendship comes across as unhealthy attachment with her inability to feel happy when Regina is throwing a fit. Regina controls people who care about her by self-pity and blame, and people like Snow and Emma are not strong enough to withstand it for some REC reason. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by Rumsy4

[TheGreenKnight]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

I think they did a reasonable job with building a reason for the beginnings of the Hook-Belle friendship, when they were both working together to free the Fairies, both feeling guilty and partially responsible for what happened.  That basis allows me to buy what Hook is doing for Belle now.  It doesn't hurt that the actors actually do have chemistry together.

On the other hand, I still cannot buy the "friendship" between Regina and Snow.  I find it even more difficult to swallow than Regina and Emma (who I could see becoming cautious allies - not necessarily friends - in 3A, but after seeing The Evil Queen in the flesh and outright murdering her mother in the 3B finale... uh, no).  \

The problem for me isn't that Hook and Belle are friends or that Regina and Belle aren't friends. To be honest, I barely care about Belle at all. It's just the double standards. Regina-Snow and Regina-Emma friendships are OMG so unrealistic, unbelievable, the writers are stupid, how many times did she try to murder them, how could they possibly be friends with her???!!! But Belle moving in with her 3-times-attempted murderer gets an A-Okay. Is it because one character is Hook and the other is Regina? Because Belle doesn't push back on Hook for what he did to her any more than Emma/Snow do Regina. Actor-chemistry is not at all a problem between Jennifer Morrison and Lana Parrilla, or Ginnifer Goodwin and Lana Parrilla. The chemistry between those two pairs were the foundation of the show, so the argument that they lack chemistry is pretty hard to believe.

[Mari]

Except there is a difference--and, again, I'm not one that is particularly interested in a Belle/Hook friendship.

What Regina did was deeply personal.  She was specifically targeting Snow and Emma because she hated them, specifically, and wanted them, specifically, dead and/or suffering.  She was remorseless within the audience's sight for five seasons, and each time she's expressed any smidgion of empathy or second thoughts, the show has destroyed that by making sure we knew she had absolutely no regrets, and had hated every moment of not being evil.  When you combine that with Snow and Emma not being able to react in an honest and natural way, it doesn't seem plausible.  It seems forced and ridiculous.

Hook was not specifically targeting Belle the person.  He was targeting someone connected to the Dark One.  Usually, someone so connected with and important to seriously evil people are not particularly nice people themselves.  His enemy wasn't Belle.  It was Rumple.  

In addition, Hook after he started to change, Hook was respectful to Belle.  (Regina was not to Snow and Emma).  He apologized--once flippantly, once fairly sincerely (Regina, not so much.). He no longer blamed Belle for problems, and was able to separated her from Rumple's choices.  (Regina . . . The closest she got was to grudgingly move on from Cora's death.)  Belle was cold and unfriendly to him at first, and has been able to reference what he used to be in a way that does not blame herself.  (Snow . . . Nope.)

I don't want to watch a lot of Belle and Hook, and don't need them to be friends, but do have to admit that the show has made that more plausible than Regina's relationships with Snow and Emma.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Mari

[Dianthus]

What I'm hearing is basically this: Belle chose Hook over Regina, and it's not fair! Is it an unlikely friendship? Yes. Has it evolved over time? I believe so. Does it play into the history between Hook and Rumple? Yes. If Snow and Emma can forgive Regina, then I don't see why Belle can't forgive Hook. At least they're not cramming it down our throats like the other. Snow and/or Emma being "friends" with Regina weakens the story, IMO.

[Shanna Marie]

I would add that the relationship between Hook and Belle -- abuser and abused -- is more appropriately balanced than that of the Regina relationships with her former victims. He was helping her by guarding her and helping with research in season 3 (and neither of them were too thrilled about it). When she saved him from Rumple, she wasn't really saving him or choosing him over her husband, but rather was stopping Rumple from carrying out a freaky human sacrifice ritual to gain more power. The identity of the victim was immaterial to her at that time. They worked together to find a way to free the fairies, and she was allowed to call him out on his temper. She did comfort him about Emma being the Dark One, but it wasn't in a way that came across as a victim coddling her abuser. It was about her being the only person who could really understand what he was going through, and she was also offering him advice and coping skills. Now, he's putting himself on the line to help her and saved her life. He's the one working to make things up to her because he recognizes that he wronged her in the past. That's the opposite from the way the Snow and Regina and Emma and Regina relationships play out, where Snow and Emma are generally rushing to help Regina, have to take her abuse without criticizing her, and are definitely not equals. The times Regina has put herself on the line for them have been undoing the previous things she set up to kill them.

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, Dianthus said:

What I'm hearing is basically this: Belle chose Hook over Regina, and it's not fair! Is it an unlikely friendship? Yes. Has it evolved over time? I believe so. Does it play into the history between Hook and Rumple? Yes. If Snow and Emma can forgive Regina, then I don't see why Belle can't forgive Hook. At least they're not cramming it down our throats like the other. Snow and/or Emma being "friends" with Regina weakens the story, IMO.

What I’m hearing is this: Belle is unrealistically close to Hook, but who cares if the writing’s inconsistent because I’m satisfied. And I don’t know what your definition of being shoved down one’s throat is, but I’m pretty sure the past episodes have done that with Belle and Hook already.

5 hours ago, Mari said:

What Regina did was deeply personal.  

When you attempt to murder someone, a normal person would not have a different opinion about the situation because the attempted murderer didn't mean it personally. And, sorry, but I don't get this argument about how you supposedly can attempt to kill someone and not mean it personally anyway. He wanted to inflict the same pain on Belle that Milah felt--and, worse, for nothing she even did to him.

[InsertWordHere]

3 hours ago, Mari said:

In addition, Hook after he started to change, Hook was respectful to Belle.  (Regina was not to Snow and Emma).

This is the kicker for me, and why I do not feel it's a double standard to be cool with one friendship and complain about the others. Since he has changed his ways, Hook has not treated Belle the way Regina has treated Emma and Snow since she changed her ways. We haven't seen Hook put down pregnant Belle, for instance, which is what Regina did to Snow with her Hagan Daz comment. 

Additionally, my main complaint with the two Regina friendships isn't Snow and Emma forgiving Regina for what she did to them individually, it's forgiving her for what she has done to the people they love. I think it is much easier for most people to look past things done to us personally than it is to not hold a grudge against someone who has done wrong to one of our loved ones. So for Emma, it's not so much that she has gotten past what Regina has done to her, it's that she has witnessed Regina burn her mother at the stake and not displayed any unhappiness with Regina for doing it. With Belle, the only person besides herself that she cares about who has been wronged by Hook since she's known him is Rumple, and I think she has now learned enough about their original feud to know it's not just a one-sided grudge. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, InsertWordHere said:

With Belle, the only person besides herself that she cares about who has been wronged by Hook since she's known him is Rumple, and I think she has now learned enough about their original feud to know it's not just a one-sided grudge. 

And they've both been victimized by Rumple. That's the main thing that's drawn them together. They have a common foe, even if she also loves that foe and has a very complicated relationship with him. When Belle and Hook became friends and started spending time together willingly, they were both still stinging from what Rumple had done to them and both felt some responsibility for what had happened -- him because he'd been forced by Rumple to do it and he hadn't told anyone else sooner, while he still could, and her for being so blind about Rumple that she allowed him to deceive her while he was doing all this. She has to realize now that if she'd listened to Hook way back in their earlier confrontations instead of just accusing him of being a black-hearted pirate who wanted to hurt poor Rumple, her life might have gone better. They've both owned up to where they went wrong. They're facing and honestly addressing their past instead of wallpapering over major cracks.

[Curio]

I think the key difference is that Belle has never had to apologize to Hook for being the victim, and Hook was the one who initiated the friendship. Since Hook was the one who did harm to Belle, the heavy lifting for starting a friendship needed to be on his shoulders, not the other way around. We have the opposite problem with Regina/Emma and Regina/Snow where the victims are the ones who begged for friendship and apologized to Regina, even though they really had nothing to apologize for. It's just not organic. Can you imagine an episode where Belle looked wistfully at pictures Hook drew of Belle during the phase he was trying to hurt her, immediately after looking at those pictures followed Hook around everywhere in the woods, brushed off every nasty thing he said to her, begged and pleaded to become his friend, and then called herself an idiot in front of Hook for not recognizing his pain? No, that would be completely unrealistic, yet that's exactly what happened in "Breaking Glass." That one episode alone was the tipping point for me in never accepting a Regina/Emma friendship. Or can we imagine Belle telling Hook that he actually made her a stronger person because by shooting her, she learned that she was able to overcome adversity? 

[TheGreenKnight]

It really depends on how you interpret the characters, I guess. For instance, I consider Regina's sassy one-liners a personality trait and not abuse in any sense of the word, much less would I consider it "putting down" someone.

As for the burning-Snow-at-the-stake that's brought up ad nauseum, why would Emma react to that towards Regina in the present? For one, at the end of 3B, the group had already tried to leave the past behind them because Henry connected Regina to them and the fact that Regina very much wanted Snow dead wasn't exactly some kind of new information for Emma. Moreover, it happened in a time loop--essentially, it never happened at all. Why would Emma get pissed about an event that never occurred before a time loop caused it to happen?

[InsertWordHere]

9 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

It really depends on how you interpret the characters, I guess. For instance, I consider Regina's sassy one-liners a personality trait and not abuse in any sense of the word, much less would I consider it "putting down" someone.

As for the burning-Snow-at-the-stake that's brought up ad nauseum, why would Emma react to that towards Regina in the present? For one, at the end of 3B, the group had already tried to leave the past behind them because Henry connected Regina to them and the fact that Regina very much wanted Snow dead wasn't exactly some kind of new information for Emma. Moreover, it happened in a time loop--essentially, it never happened at all. Why would Emma get pissed about an event that never occurred before a time loop caused it to happen?

I wouldn't call it abuse either. However, snide remarks, which is what that was IMO, are very much intended to put down the person they're being directed at. IA it definitely depends on how you interpret the characters. My 10 year old niece is "sassy," but she is not snide. I think Hook is unnecessarily snide sometimes too, but he hasn't been that way to Belle since they've become friends.

As for the burning at the stake, it would have been relevant to bring up because Regina immediately started blaming Emma for messing up her life by bringing Marian to the present and in fact compared Emma to Snow in that instance. It's actually glaring that it wasn't brought up. And it most definitely wasn't in a timeloop. The time travel created a whole new timeline, one in which Snow, Red, and Charming, (when they have their memories) have always remembered that this happened. 

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I think the key difference is that Belle has never had to apologize to Hook for being the victim, and Hook was the one who initiated the friendship. 

Quote

It really depends on how you interpret the characters, I guess. 

I agree with both of these things. For me, personally, Belle/Hook is superior to Regina/Snow/Emma. It fixes the  major problems I have with Regina's relationships. For instance, Belle gets to be mad and mistrustful toward Hook. It's not that I want to see people running after Regina with pitchforks. But (echoing the Writers thread here) if the characters were able to react as humans toward Regina's actions, her redemption would not be as big of a pill to swallow. Hook had the job of earning Belle's trust back, and that makes their reconciliation more meaningful. If Belle had instant-forgiven him, that would be boring and inorganic.

I can't say I'm a big of fan comparing the severity of Regina and Hook's crimes. To me, they both did bad things. Within this context, it's about how the other characters feel about them. In their world, there's no justice or law governing which deeds are worse than others. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, InsertWordHere said:

I wouldn't call it abuse either. However, snide remarks, which is what that was IMO, are very much intended to put down the person they're being directed at. IA it definitely depends on how you interpret the characters.

Yeah, it's best to agree to disagree, because I don't think they are snide either. I think the reason they're humorous is because she's perceptive about other people, but completely lacks that same ability when looking at herself.

As for the latter part of your post, either way, Emma knew it occurred because of the interference of time travel and that it wasn't in the original timeline. Even beyond that, I don't find it glaring it's never mentioned considering Regina wanting to murder Snow was not new information to anyone. *shrug*

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Hook had the job of earning Belle's trust back, and that makes their reconciliation more meaningful. If Belle had instant-forgiven him, that would be boring and inorganic.

The reason I don't follow that criticism of the Regina-Emma-Snow relationship is because their relationship had an external justification for why they let the past go more easily (Henry). Belle had no obligation to interact with Hook at all, since they aren't related in any way.

Edited October 21, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

The reason I don't follow that criticism of the Regina-Emma-Snow relationship is because their relationship had an external justification for why they let the past go more easily (Henry). Belle had no obligation to interact with Hook at all, since they aren't related in any way.

If this is the case, I wish the characters would imply it. The reasoning has mostly been shown to be Regina has a "good in her heart" or "she's the only one who understands me". The niceness would be more palatable if it were for Henry or to keep her from going on a rampage. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, TheGreenKnight said:

The reason I don't follow that criticism of the Regina-Emma-Snow relationship is because their relationship had an external justification for why they let the past go more easily (Henry). 

 

There's letting the past go, and then there's "Breaking Glass" and Snow thanking Regina for killing her father and making her life miserable. I could see a begrudging family relationship forming where you may not necessarily like the person, but you suck it up otherwise Thanksgiving dinner will be awkward. But for me, they've pushed those friendships too far too fast.

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The reasoning has mostly been shown to be Regina has a "good in her heart" or "she's the only one who understands me". 

 

Or "she's special and unique" or "she's worked too hard for her happy ending."

[InsertWordHere]

See, that's actually why I appreciate the Belle and Hook friendship more, because the Henry justification comes across as very much "we're only friends because we're family." Whereas Belle and Hook, being the two characters who are the least related to the rest of the cast, seem to have become friends on their own. To each their own, but I definitely appreciate "found families" more than blood/legally related families.  

Edited October 21, 2016 by InsertWordHere

[YaddaYadda]

This conversation is so circling the drain, but regarding Regina's "sass", I think a lot of it comes off as hurtful even if she doesn't mean it. She does it in a contemptuous tone a lot of times.

But I also think some of it is meant to be hurtful. I kind of go back to 5x11 when Regina went to find Hook to convince him not do whatever he was getting ready to do, and when she called him Killian, his reply was, what? Not one-handed wonder or Captain guyliner? Captain Guyliner is kind of funny, but one-handed wonder isn't.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

To each their own, but I definitely appreciate "found families" more than blood/legally related families.  

I love the Emma/Mary Margaret relationship in S1 because it combined the related and found families. They were close because of how they interacted, not any obligation. You could argue fate pushed them together, but I don't believe that to be the case entirely. Emma chose to stay with her, believing her to only be a kind stranger. Over the course of months they went from roommates, to best friends, to family. I love that. Blood ties were just the icing on the cake.

Edited October 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

Quote

Emma chose to stay with her, believing her to only be a kind stranger. Over the course of months they went from roommates, to best friends, to family. I love that.

 

I'm surprised Snow wasn't allowed to say anything about missing Emma's presence in the latest episode. Why was David the only one freaking out making pancakes? Does Snow miss having Emma as a roommate? Or is she totally blasé about it all? Emma and Snow don't even seem like close friends anymore. Will Snow and Emma ever get an equivalent scene to Regina making Emma promise to destroy her? Probably not.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Curio

[TheGreenKnight]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

If this is the case, I wish the characters would imply it. The reasoning has mostly been shown to be Regina has a "good in her heart" or "she's the only one who understands me". The niceness would be more palatable if it were for Henry or to keep her from going on a rampage. 

I thought they did more than imply it in season 2. I think they are genuinely friendly 4 seasons later, so it isn't just for Henry's sake anymore.

[Shanna Marie]

I find this show's "but they're family" mantra to be rather enraging. It's treated like a get-out-of-jail-free card that allows people to get away with abuse and even murder. I'm not even sure that Henry provides enough common ground to explain a friendship between Emma and Regina because Regina is an unapologetic mass murderer who emotionally abused Henry, made multiple attempts to murder his grandparents, murdered his great-grandfather, and tried to kill everyone in town. She may be trying to reform, but that's where you have supervised visitation with a neutral party as the supervisor, maybe. This is where the characters aren't allowed to have normal human reactions. Would a kid who felt bad enough and scared enough of his adoptive mother that he sought out his birth mother as a kind of Savior, who knew he was being gaslit, who was the one person who knew most of the stuff Regina had done, who was held prisoner by her, who tried to destroy magic because he was afraid her magic made her evil, and who knew she'd tried to destroy the town really be her biggest cheerleader now? He might have mixed feelings because she did bring him up, but it would be a really complicated relationship that would take a long time to rebuild.

I actually would have preferred it if either Regina's cost to undo the curse had been a real cost and he never got his memories of growing up with her back or if he'd got all his memories back when they were restored, including the memories she wiped when he wasn't keen on her plans to murder his family.

As for Regina's "sassy" remarks, there's sassy and then there's mocking a woman who was so pregnant that she gave birth later that day for having a relationship with Hagen Daz, or however she phrased it. She basically told a nine-months pregnant woman she was fat because of overeating. That's not funny. It would be fighting words if someone said that to me, I wouldn't let it slide if someone said that to a friend, and I wouldn't want to be friends with anyone who would say that to someone or who thought it was funny.

[TheGreenKnight]

Well, I’d have to agree Henry was abused, but I’ve already been a part of discussion about that before so why waste time.

The sassiness to me isn’t any different than the mocking jabs you’d see on Will & Grace or The Golden Girls.  I find it so bizarre how that dialogue, obviously intended to evoke that prickly kind of friendship and give humor to the show, is overblown into something serious like abuse. People have enough perception to know when you’re being mean and when you’re just joking, and apparently the writers consider this the kind of relationship Snow/Emma have with Regina. And I find it believable.

Edited October 21, 2016 by TheGreenKnight

[YaddaYadda]

I know I'd be more okay with the sass if it was equal opportunity sass. Like someone says something, and the person can actually reply to that as opposed to clamming up or rolling their eyes.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I love the Emma/Mary Margaret relationship in S1 because it combined the related and found families. They were close because of how they interacted, not any obligation. You could argue fate pushed them together, but I don't believe that to be the case entirely. Emma chose to stay with her, believing her to only be a kind stranger. Over the course of months they went from roommates, to best friends, to family. I love that. Blood ties were just the icing on the cake.

Me too. Its my favorite from season one. We knew they were mother and daughter but they didn't. It was fun watching them go from roommates to best friends and to family. We even got cute lines like Emma's 'I'm not your mother' and Snow answering 'According to Henry I'm yours' and Emma telling Snow why she couldn't lose her at the end of the Mad Hatter episode that she couldn't lose her family Snow being so touched that Emma considered her family.  It didn't just happen over night but over several months.  I really miss their friendship.

[Shanna Marie]

I don't think that fat-shaming or disability-shaming are ever okay or ever fall under the umbrella of "funny" or "sass." I didn't think that sort of thing was funny on shows like Will and Grace or the Golden Girls, and I don't think it's funny when Regina does it. There's a difference between snarky and mean. I am all about the snark. My friends fight to sit next to me in movies so they can hear my under-the-breath commentary. But I would never dream of insulting anyone about their physical appearance. Behavior is fair game, but the body is off limits. And it's worse when Regina's targets aren't allowed to fight back, even to criticize her behavior. She comes across as one of those people who uses "I just tell it like it is" or "I'm just being honest" or "can't you take a joke?" to say whatever she likes with no consequences, and if her victims get offended, then they just can't handle the truth or just can't take a joke, but while she says some very mean and personal things about their bodies, she gets in a huff when they mention her past behavior. She can call Hook a "one-handed wonder" or talk about pregnant Snow eating too much ice cream, but when someone mentions her victims or village slaughter, she gets huffy and insists that she was a different person then. On those sitcoms, everyone is trading barbs and is mean to each other (I still don't like it). On this show, it's Regina being "sassy" while everyone else has to take it. It's like she wandered in from a bad sitcom where they mistake insults for humor.