Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Souris]

Let's be real, whatever David thinks about Hook will be shown in one line. If we're lucky.

[Faemonic]

About David and Hook, who was it that Emma almost crushed accidentally with the lamppost? I know it was one of those two guys, and the other pulled him out before he got hurt or something.

I noticed that "Good Form" had like zero buildup to everyone being mean to Hook, there was the occasional annoyance at camping with baddies who didn't bail (good call, Rumple) but the energy between the actors was fairly easygoing until his Very Special Flashback Episode and then all of a sudden they're playing their characters as though they all hate his guts.

So, those inconsistencies with relationships are par for the course. How big a grudge can Charming hold for being called boring compared to weapon-prosthetic pirate with alcoholism? We'll never know!

But why bother to make the dramatic toasting gesture, and drink rum that you don't even like, and keep flashing his abs at him, and joke about being gay for him ("Emma, I'm a married man!"), and then organize search parties that include him, and nod about his intentions for your daughter, and organize search parties that include only him, and leave him alone while he's holding hands with your hypothermic daughter, and leave him alone with your grandson until Zariel wants another hashtagging search party, and then do what the pirate says right away when there's a plot device cauldron of magic sulphuric acid getting hauled about...if you genuinely hate the guy?

Because the bad judgmental daddy charming seems to be becoming the fanon, which I guess would be refreshing for people up to their eyeballs in the Captain Charming bromance, but I can't believe that would be more true than the other interpretation.

Edited January 15, 2016 by Faemonic

[InsertWordHere]

David saved Hook from the lamppost.

 

David will do whatever the plot of the week requires because this show writes for plot and snappy one-liners over characterization. And usually Snow will take the opposite side. For reasons. 

 

I noticed that "Good Form" had like zero buildup to everyone being mean to Hook, there was the occasional annoyance at camping with baddies who didn't bail (good call, Rumple) but the energy between the actors was fairly easygoing until his Very Special Flashback Episode and then all of a sudden they're playing their characters as though they all hate his guts.

Yep. I remember making this exact same observation on TWoP when that episode aired. Sadly, nothing has changed. 

[KAOS Agent]

I personally loved how David got all judgey about Hook's understandable anger about the whole Rumpel enslavement, torture and attempted murder of him. Yes, Emma was totally going evil for agreeing that Hook's feelings were completely understandable. Plot really does screw with David's characterization a lot, but that one was particularly egregious. Rumpel had actively attempted to kill both Emma and Hook just weeks before, but it's wrong for Hook to have feelings about that.

 

I don't really get the impression that David thinks much of Hook at all, but he's perfectly willing to use him to help him with Emma. A lot of people assume the occasional bro nod implies some sort of good friendship between the two, but generally David isn't really that interested in any relationship with Hook and he really doesn't think he's good enough for Emma. I think no matter how great Hook is with Emma or what he does to help the Charming family in general, David will never be all that cool with Hook.  He just goes along with it because it's what Emma wants and Hook makes her happy.

Edited January 15, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[mjgchick]

Yeah I think Davids feelings for Hook has more to do with Emma than him actually thinking of Hook as a person.

I thought it made sense during Good Form that David was getting increasingly frustrated had to do with the fact he was injured and trying to hide it. Also Davids never lived the life Emma, Hook and even Snow has which made sense why she was kind of on his side but knowing this show they probably just needed David to be the one in the wrong and Snow right. lol

I'm trying to remember if Davids ever had an opinion on Neal or not.

I wonder who has it worse, David, Belle or Robin?

Edited January 15, 2016 by mjgchick

[october]

I'd say Robin. He has next to nothing in the centrics department and no matter what happens to him (his wife's return, being raped, having a new baby) is made more about Regina than him. We have an extended, gratuitous scene of Queen Regina learning to dance in Camelot, but nothing on the fact that Robin was a peasant and a thief, so out of all of them he would feel the most out of place. You could replace Robin with a cardboard cut-out giving Regina the thumbs-up in much of 5a and it'd make next to no difference. As troubling as the writing for David and Belle often is, at least I usually feel that they're people in their own right and distinct from their romantic partners. Even the key decisions made about Baby Pistachio are done side by side with Regina. Them being a team isn't a bad thing, but it's his baby and he doesn't have much in the way of a separate voice. And without seeing how Regina and Robin came to the decision to, for example, allow Zelena access to the baby or send her back to Oz, it's easy to disregard Robin's agency and assume he's just agreeing with Regina.

[Selina K]

I'm sorry, as much as I generally agree with your point, it's incorrect to say she chose Hook over Neal. She never did. Did it look like things were leaning that way? Sure. But she never chose to be with Hook when Neal was in the picture, which is why I will always hate that they killed him off when they did. I strongly dislike Swanfire, it's one of my top NOTP's of all time, but for some reason this show never wanted to have Emma tell Neal it would never happen. The last time Emma had to make a romantic choice about Neal, before everyone was reset to their respawn points in Going Home, she stood him up at the diner, yes, but she was still on her way to see him after having to be talked into it by David. Not exactly my idea of grand romance, but it wasn't exactly saying she would never give him a chance again. 

 

Even though, Emma didn't "choose" Hook when Neal was still in the picture, I felt like the conversations she had with Neal in 3.15 closed the door pretty definitively on the idea that they had any romantic future.  So, even though she did not make a choice of Hook over Neal, I think she basically said "No" to the idea of Neal and Swanfire. 

[YaddaYadda]

Even though, Emma didn't "choose" Hook when Neal was still in the picture, I felt like the conversations she had with Neal in 3.15 closed the door pretty definitively on the idea that they had any romantic future.  So, even though she did not make a choice of Hook over Neal, I think she basically said "No" to the idea of Neal and Swanfire. 

 

I thought the whole thing between Emma and Hook at the town line was a pretty good indication where her head was. And that was coming from a non-shipper perspective at the time. I thought there were things here and there throughout 3A where Emma seemed to be a little more receptive.

 

Even where Neal stood as far as a relationship with Emma goes changed in 3B. I thought his relationship with Emma became a lot more about Henry than anyone else.

[KAOS Agent]

I think no matter how much they tried to pretend that there was some sort of triangle going on, it was never about a choice between Hook and Neal. The final nail went into the coffin of Swanfire when Emma told Neal that she wished he were dead. That's some pretty tough feelings to overcome and I don't think Emma would ever have been interested in revisiting them. I was a bit worried that they'd have her be pressured into it because Henry wanted it (and her parents were inexplicably pro-Neal), but it seemed like Emma was ready to stick to her guns. She may have played lip service to it to make her parents happy for a bit, but she was done. This was even more apparent in 3B where Emma had had a long term relationship with another man. Her new memories of keeping Henry had stripped her of the bitterness she held for Neal and she was able to move on. By the time the two had their walk in the woods, both were clearly in the friendship zone of two prior lovers who knew that they weren't meant to be. Emma's relationship with Walsh was instrumental in resolving her feelings for Neal. Hook had little to do with it.

[YaddaYadda]

Emma's relationship with Walsh was instrumental in resolving her feelings for Neal.

 

I sort of agree, and disagree with this. Yes, Emma had been with Walsh for 8-9 months which is probably the longest relationship she's been in at that point, but I thought that her memories of keeping Henry and raising him is what did wonders to her psyche. I also think that this was a very large reason why she was resisting Henry getting his memories back, or wanting to stay in Storybrooke. Back in 3x11, before the curse, when Emma was so desperate to figure out a way to stay with her family, David said something alone the lines of Emma will get what she always wanted, a normal life, and Regina said Emma will get to be with Henry like she always wanted.

 

I've always wanted them to sort of explore this part. I'm thinking that Emma would've likely kept Henry if she thought Neal was waiting for her on the other side, I mean she did go to Tallahassee, or if August hadn't stolen that 20K from her, which did she ever find out about that? August is her good friend who screwed her over a lot.

 

I don't know about Hook having little to do because 3B wasn't exactly a walk in the park for him.

Edited January 25, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[daxx]

I sort of agree, and disagree with this. Yes, Emma had been with Walsh for 8-9 months which is probably the longest relationship she's been in at that point, but I thought that her memories of keeping Henry and raising him is what did wonders to her psyche.

Raising Henry meant she had far fewer walls and was more open to relationships but from the discussion with Henry about the engagement it's obvious she was still unable to completely open up and get past her fears. After talking with Henry she was more receptive to the idea obviously, but she still was wavering which is why she immediately did the Emma running away from her fears thing and started looking into what Hook told her. She was running from the Walsh thing.

[Amerilla]

I think no matter how much they tried to pretend that there was some sort of triangle going on, it was never about a choice between Hook and Neal.

This is one of those situations where you can't really separate the characters from the real-world decisions behind the scenes. Had they not written Neal off, there's no reason they couldn't have written a full-on triangle, or written Hook out of it entirely, or introduced another character who Emma loved even more that these two dingbats, or made SwanQueen a thing, or hit Emma with a comet, or...well, you get the idea. No fictional story is written in stone. There are infinite paths the writers can take.

From Neal's introduction until his death, it was made clear within the story he and Emma still loved each other in a way that they weren't going to just shake off. Like Snowing and Rumbelle, they were positioned in S2 as lovers separated by fate/magic/outside forces. You'd have to be wearing some industrial-grade CS shipper goggles to argue that it never seemed like Swanfire might well be the long-term story goal. Even projecting forward, it's not really hard to imagine Emma and Neal falling through the Zelena portal into the past - having Neal interacting with Imp!Rumpel, for example, or having SwanFire bond over getting Snowing together after cocking it up. Dark Swan, too, would have an even bigger resonance for Neal than Hook, since losing his father to the Dark One was his big emotional wound, and getting RealRumpel back at the expense of losing Emma to the same fate would send him into a tailspin.

(As an aside, I've never understood the obsession with "endgame" in fandom. What's interesting about following a foregone conclusion? That's one of the reasons Snowing and Rumbelle have become so bloody boring - we know they're both "endgame," and the most interesting parts of their story are behind them. This DarkSwan/Underworld arc is a sign that they're really having to reach at this point to keep CS in angst-mode.)

We know now that they had decided to write Neal off in the hiatus between S2 and S3, so everything that happened in S3a in terms of Swanfire/CS was sort of a false flag. There was no triangle only because one angle was already on his way out. In retrospect, it's clear that they were having Emma admit in Echo Caves that she had never stopped loving Neal - to the point where his being dead would have been easier for her than to admit how powerful and scary those feelings were - because that amped up her emotions when he later does die and she has to let him go. Hook's instant shift from "she's kinda hot" to "oh-my-god-I-love-this-woman-so-much-I-would-die-for-her" and their fuckwittery in Dark Hollow was a set-up for 3b, because if they don't both recognize the mutual depth of their feelings for her in 3a, Neal's reliance on Hook as the conduit to get Emma's memories back and warn her what's coming in 3b makes no sense.

I've always wanted them to sort of explore this part. I'm thinking that Emma would've likely kept Henry if she thought Neal was waiting for her on the other side, I mean she did go to Tallahassee, or if August hadn't stolen that 20K from her, which did she ever find out about that? August is her good friend who screwed her over a lot.

I think Neal told her about the $20k at some point, offscreen, because he makes reference to it when he brings Henry back from being out playing with Kid!August.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Amerilla

[Rosiejuliemom]

You could replace Robin with a cardboard cut-out giving Regina the thumbs-up in much of 5a and it'd make next to no difference.

 

 

Only if it could change expressions a la Latrine's substitute Sheriff of Rottingham in Robin Hood: Men in Tights. 

[Curio]

This is one of those situations where you can't really separate the characters from the real-world decisions behind the scenes. [...] No fictional story is written in stone. There are infinite paths the writers can take.

Yes and no. In theory, there are infinite paths a writer can take. However, (even though we tend to make fun of them for not knowing what the hell they're doing) Adam & Eddy have admitted that they've had a long-term plan for the show, and one of those long-term plans was setting up Emma and Hook as potential love interests. So in a way, yes, the story is sometimes written in stone. Had Colin and Jennifer not shown any chemistry, then of course there were probably emergency Plans B and C, but fortunately for them and (some of) the audience, they saw the great chemistry and went with it.

 

From Neal's introduction until his death, it was made clear within the story he and Emma still loved each other in a way that they weren't going to just shake off. Like Snowing and Rumbelle, they were positioned in S2 as lovers separated by fate/magic/outside forces. You'd have to be wearing some industrial-grade CS shipper goggles to argue that it never seemed like Swanfire might well be the long-term story goal.

I'll admit that I genuinely thought Emma and Neal were going to be "endgame" when I was watching Season 2 live. I didn't necessarily buy their chemistry or their "love" story, but I thought the writers were hitting us over the head with anvils about two lovers who were forced to leave each other, but fate brought them back together, and now they had a second chance at being one little happy family. Emma's OOC declaration of love when Neal fell through the portal was the nail in the coffin for me. Thankfully, those anvils turned out to be red herrings. Or if you're cynical, bad writing. Take your pick.

 

(As an aside, I've never understood the obsession with "endgame" in fandom. What's interesting about following a foregone conclusion? That's one of the reasons Snowing and Rumbelle have become so bloody boring - we know they're both "endgame," and the most interesting parts of their story are behind them. This DarkSwan/Underworld arc is a sign that they're really having to reach at this point to keep CS in angst-mode.)

If people don't find "endgame" couples interesting, then you might as well cancel every single romantic-themed movie or TV series from now on. Don't bother watching When Harry Met Sally, I think it's pretty obvious they're endgame! Both of their names are in the title...it's a foregone conclusion!

Kidding aside, I think the reason fandom takes shipping and "endgame" couples to the nth degree is because it almost turns into an obsessive sport. Much like how people become obsessed with a football or soccer team winning a championship, a couple achieving "endgame" status is like winning the relationship world cup.

Personally, I dislike the notion that once a couple gets together, they immediately have to be boring. There are plenty of ways to keep an "endgame" couple interesting, but many writers don't like to take on that challenge. Snow and Charming could still be an awesome married couple fighting monsters and helping rule Storybrooke, but the writers got bored of both their characters and gave them a do-over baby. Belle and Rumple would actually be more interesting to me if they stopped breaking up every 5 minutes and had to work through their issues together instead of Belle constantly falling asleep. (I always thought it would be entertaining if Belle slowly gravitated towards becoming a villain the more she hung out with Rumple, instead of her empty pleas about being a "hero.") I have a small bit of hope that Emma and Hook will still be interesting when they inevitably end up together, but a lot of that might just come down to the chemistry between the two actors.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Curio

[YaddaYadda]

I'll admit that I genuinely thought Emma and Neal were going to be "endgame" when I was watching Season 2 live. I didn't necessarily buy their chemistry or their "love" story, but I thought the writers were hitting us over the head with anvils about two lovers who were forced to leave each other, but fate brought them back together, and now they had a second chance at being one little happy family. Emma's OOC declaration of love when Neal fell through the portal was the nail in the coffin for me. Thankfully, those anvils turned out to be red herrings. Or if you're cynical, bad writing. Take your pick.

 

 

Talking as someone who was completely unspoiled, and read TWoP post-episode thread, a week after any episodes aired, I thought the introduction of Neal in 2x06, and how they went about that episode, for me, in my mind, there was no way Emma and Neal were going to end up together. Then Hook disappeared for several episodes, and I was like okay, well that's the end of that. Then he was back. And then I was completely thrown by Emma's ILY, because the whole time, I interpreted her reaction to Neal and Tamara as more of a "you moved on, but I'm stuck with tons of issues, and you saddled me with a few of them, why aren't you having problems like I am?" type of reaction.

 

Season 2 was super confusing, and I will forever blame Colin's skiing accident for some of this because I fucking wanted those scene Neal/Hook scenes, and I wanted to know more about their relationship, and I'll always wonder how much was changed, even in terms of the triangle, because I'm assuming that if there was going to be one then it would have been happening in the second half of season 2.

[Rumsy4]

In the beginning before Neal was introduced as Henry's dad/Rumple's son, I imagined the writers would go the route of Henry's father and Emma as seperated by miscommunication and misunderstandings, but would meet and reconcile. But neither Tallahasse nor Manhattan showed Neal as having legitimate reasons for what he did (like he didn't know Emma went to jail or someone had conked him on the head and kidnapped him, etc.). Their romance fell kinda flat. However, I did think they were endgame when Emma confessed to loving him in the S2 finale. I never thought Hook was going to be a legitimate love interest, with all the confusing storylines in 2B and villains constantly flip flopping. I always liked Hook, but I was sort of disillusioned with the writing for 2B, and it was hard to take anything seriously.

It's only in S3 I started seeing legitimate signs of Hook and Emma being the direction the Show was taking (and also when I started shipping them).

Edited January 25, 2016 by Rumsy4

[mjgchick]

I thought the way they paralleled Emma meeting Hook to Emma meeting Neal, Emma trusting that douchebag to Emma doing the opposite of trusting Hook because douchebag screwed her over was a real sign that Hook and her were not going to be over. They gave Colin a contract before his episode even aired. Like YaddaYadda I thought not having Hook for so many episodes was the end of that but I never thought we'd get Emma with Neal as a couple again until she told him she loved him. Then Hooks ass came back and she told him "You and me are a lot alike." Or whatever and then I thought ok maybe its not over.

Oh and I started rooting for Emma and Hook maybe some where around 3B? He just made her smile more than most people did on the show so.

Edited January 25, 2016 by mjgchick

[Selina K]

(As an aside, I've never understood the obsession with "endgame" in fandom. What's interesting about following a foregone conclusion? 

I'll admit that I genuinely thought Emma and Neal were going to be "endgame" when I was watching Season 2 live. I didn't necessarily buy their chemistry or their "love" story, but I thought the writers were hitting us over the head with anvils about two lovers who were forced to leave each other, but fate brought them back together, and now they had a second chance at being one little happy family. Emma's OOC declaration of love when Neal fell through the portal was the nail in the coffin for me. Thankfully, those anvils turned out to be red herrings. Or if you're cynical, bad writing. Take your pick.

 

I think there are entire industries based on the concept of 'foregone conclusion' - romance and mystery novels come immediately to mind.  As a romance reader, I know the couple will end up together, that's part of why I like reading them, but it's all about the characters and making the journey interesting to watch or read.  Mystery novels, we know the detective will solve the crime - it's the playing along to get to the end that makes it enjoyable.

 

I also thought Neal and Emma would be endgame, if only because that's the fairy tale trope - first love, true love, end game.  I was incredibly disappointed watching those relationship beats.  Neal seemed like an ass, beside the past, he seemed to be gloating that he had moved on with Tamara and taunting Emma with how he was convinced she was still in love with him.  When he fell through the portal and they traded I love you's, it was one of the few times I made a direct statement to a character in a TV show and just answered, "No, you don't." - usually I make snarky side observations, but don't exchange dialogue.  I was incredibly relieved when they started setting up Hook in season 3 as a more legitimate option for Emma.  I actually gave them some points for writing there and thought it was refreshing to buck the trope and show second love can be the better option.  I wasn't 100% bought in to Hook until the "never seen you fail" conversation in Dark Hollow won me over.  I've been firmly CS since then.  I just never saw anything in Neal that convinced me he was still in love with Emma, or anything from Emma that demonstrated anything more than complicated unresolved issues, not love, for Neal.

[Curio]

Oh and I started rooting for Emma and Hook maybe some where around 3B? He just made her smile more than most people did on the show so.

The hospital scene did it for me. And then I figured those two were screwed because I always seem to like characters who get killed, character-assassinated, or written off the show. (I guess there's still time for that to happen...)

When he fell through the portal and they traded I love you's, it was one of the few times I made a direct statement to a character in a TV show and just answered, "No, you don't." - usually I make snarky side observations, but don't exchange dialogue.

You were much nicer than I was. I said "What the fuck??" out loud, and then I decided to join the online OUAT fandom and read the TWoP message boards to try and make sense of that scene. So at least it lead me to hanging out with you friendly folks online.

The only other time I remember actually saying something aloud to my TV during this show was when Belle made Rumple cross the town line during the 4A finale. It was probably something along the lines of "This is amazing." And I probably said "This is bullshit" several times during Breaking Glass.

Edited January 25, 2016 by Curio

[oliverwendell]

I'm also one of those who thought Neal and Emma were endgame as soon as Neal was introduced. He's Henry's father, and this is a Disney show, and I just couldn't see a Disney production going in any direction other than reuniting lovers who've had a kid together. The "I love you's" at the end of Season 2 clinched it for me, and I was surprised to see a triangle developing in the beginning of Season 3. I hated Hook when he first appeared (so smarmy!) and I never warmed up to Neal at all (so douchey!), so I wasn't invested in either leg of the triangle for a while. I finally, to my own surprise, became a Hook fan in "Good Form," and now I think the way the writers and Colin have slowly redeemed that character over three seasons is one of the better redemption stories in recent TV history and a great reversal of the whole first love = true love, family-first Disney trope.

[mjgchick]

I didn't even think about Disney's trope of first true loves because I was so angry at Neal since S1 that I never thought they'd get back together. I was thinking of how I feel I guess. When Neal became a thing and I saw who he is not to mention he was 24/200 + dating a 17 year old I was just pulled off by him completely. It could've been Colin playing Neal and I'd hate the guy so I just never in my head thought they'd get back together until that god awful "I love you."

[YaddaYadda]

When Neal became a thing and I saw who he is not to mention he was 24/200 + dating a 17 year old I was just pulled off by him completely.

 

 

You can have the same argument that the age of the pirate that the writers don't seem to be able to agree on is an issue. He's 300 years old dating a 31 year old, plus he's technically older than Neal. Although now, he's more like 100 (his father said he dumped him and his brother a century before) +28 (curse years) + let's say 23 (if his father left him when he was 10)...FYI, I suck at math so this is actually making very little sense to me.

 

I don't count the time Hook and Neal passed in Neverland, the same way I don't count the 28 year curse. I think the only people who are their real age are Rumple and Blue. 

[Serena]

I think it's different. Emma is in her 30s now and a fully grown adult. But a naive 16/17 year old is another thing entirely. Even if we don't count the 200 years, 24 dating 16 - especially an homeless, family-less 16 - could be creepy.

[Curio]

You can have the same argument that the age of the pirate that the writers don't seem to be able to agree on is an issue. He's 300 years old dating a 31 year old, plus he's technically older than Neal.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I think their argument was more about Emma being an underage and impressionable teenager than anyone being weirded out about her boyfriends living hundreds of years in timeless purgatory. There's kind of a big difference between a 17-year-old making naive dating decisions and an adult 30-year-old woman making wiser dating decisions. So it's not entirely the same same argument.

[YaddaYadda]

There's kind of a big difference between a 17-year-old making naive dating decisions and an adult 30-year-old woman making wiser dating decisions. So it's not entirely the same same argument.

 

And I agree, but this show doesn't care about this stuff at all. See Graham and Robin. This is why I skipped the over the whole 17-24 year old.

[InsertWordHere]

About Swanfire's Season 2 potential, by revealing (printed paper in a box sitting on a motorcycle driven by a puppet) that he was Baelfire, the show was banking on his identity being enough to make his actions forgivable and understandable. For me and a whole lot of others, it wasn't. It would have been interesting if the show had gone the route of making Henry's dad a non-fairytale guy, but kept the thief backstory for Neal. It would have taken a very charismatic actor to overcome both the lack of fairytale origin and the scumbag past. 

From Neal's introduction until his death, it was made clear within the story he and Emma still loved each other in a way that they weren't going to just shake off. Like Snowing and Rumbelle, they were positioned in S2 as lovers separated by fate/magic/outside forces. 

Except the story didn't make this clear because Neal did shake it off. I'm not even counting the 10 years since Henry's birth, but the weeks he could have come to Storybrooke after the curse was broken and the fiancee he acquired along the way. 

 

 

(As an aside, I've never understood the obsession with "endgame" in fandom. What's interesting about following a foregone conclusion? That's one of the reasons Snowing and Rumbelle have become so bloody boring - we know they're both "endgame," and the most interesting parts of their story are behind them. This DarkSwan/Underworld arc is a sign that they're really having to reach at this point to keep CS in angst-mode.)

I know the word has evolved some, but for me "endgame" always meant that the couple was together at the end of the show's/characters' run. As such, endgame has never been as important to me  as "Middlegame." I really don't care how the couples end up when they are off my screen. Sure, it makes fanfiction easier, but fix it fanfics are some of my favorites anyway. I'd rather see the couple getting together and experiencing the first moments of their relationship as opposed to "we've been teasing this for six or seven seasons and the show's almost over so we'll put this couple together now at the last minute." With Swanfire, I think we were either going to get the latter scenario or have Emma pressured into giving Neal a chance when she wasn't ready and ending it a few episodes later. We knew they had already been together and in love, so had he lived, I don't think they would have followed the current CS trajectory at all. 

[daxx]

I was on the CS bandwagon early and yes the "I love you" in 2b scared me but the "you and I we understand each other" made me feel better. I was a bit worried that hiatus and skulked around TWOP a lot.

Edited January 25, 2016 by daxx

[Shanna Marie]

There's kind of a big difference between a 17-year-old making naive dating decisions and an adult 30-year-old woman making wiser dating decisions.

That's where I see it -- I ignore Neverland and the curse. So Neal at 24 dating a 16-17 year old was creepy and probably illegal (they weren't even within the boundaries of "Romeo and Juliet" loopholes to statutory rape laws). We don't know Hook's exact physical age (and guessing that on actors' ages is complicated by the fact that Jen is actually older than Colin), but they seem to be around the same age. Altered-memory Henry assumed that Hook was about the same age as his father would be, and since Henry didn't know anything about his father at that time), we may be able to take that as reading that Hook and Emma seem to be around the same age.

 

I never felt like Emma rejected Neal for Hook. She did, however, seem to reject the idea of getting back together with Neal regardless of Hook, which I like. It wasn't about which guy to choose. It was about deciding about each one on his own merits, and it wasn't that she turned to Hook as a default after Neal died but rather that she decided she wanted Hook. Maybe if Neal had stayed around longer that might have been clearer, if she had a longer single phase with both men still present and then made her choice of man while both men were possibilities. But with this show's timeline, even if that was half a season it might have been maybe two weeks in show time, so it might not have really added anything to the picture.

 

I've been curious about what we missed in the development of it all thanks to Colin's broken leg. Was it such a bad break that they had to write him out entirely? Could they not have worked around it? They could have implied that he was in the hold of the Jolly Roger on the way back to Storybrooke and while they were dealing with Cora, and then they could have had him seated or shot from the waist up in conversations. That wouldn't have been any more obvious than his painful-looking limp when he came back (and in the commentary, he talks about how much pain he was in). Or did they not know how long he'd have to be out, so they just wrote him out entirely and then were committed to that once they had him left behind in New York?

[tri4335]

I too thought Neal and Emma were end game because of the whole first love angle even though to me the chemistry between JMO and CO was off the charts. They may have wanted to present that outside forces came between  Neal and Emma but to me it was written as cowardice on Neal's part and for no other reason. 

I remember thinking that A & E would stick to the Emma and Neal story even though a better one had presented itself but maybe they could course adjust and redeem Neal.  Once they doubled down with having Neal insult and demean Emma in front of Henry, I realized that it was not an epic lovestory but a girl who was screwed over by a guy who remained a dick but would still get her in the end.  I stopped watching after that until one radom day I checked in with the Fandom and learned of the sneek peak for 3x7 and of Emma and Hook's kiss. I was back on the bandwagon and they are the reason I continue to tune in today.

 

There was so much they could have done with the Neal character but they really screwed the pooch on all angles - truthfully not just with him but with other characters as well. I was thinking the other day that David's life advice to Emma about 'moments" is how they write this show. There are all these moments in the show  - many of them really bad and not connected but there are still enough of the "good" ones where the actor/actress knocks it out of the part that I continue to tune in (admittidly with my hand of FF through most of it).

Edited January 25, 2016 by tri4335

[Rumsy4]

I dislike the way Neal acted entitled to Henry when he first met him. I hate that he never stood up for Emma when Henry was acting like a little shit about her deception. He put her down in front of her son, and he was smug over the whole Tamara-thing. He did apologize to Emma when he and Emma were tracking Tamara to the warehouse. But his immediate turnaround and pursuit of Emma after Tamara betrayed him seemed forced. Then he wouldn't leave her alone after she told him she wished he was dead. I also really dislike Emma agreeing with Neal that he had no choice but to abandon her in the episode he died. That's like Mary Margaret commiserating Regina on the adultery thing. The writers are attempting to portray morally grey characters, but they do it by making white look black and black look white. That is just disingenuous writing. At the end of the day, I think it comes down to this--the writers never really cared enough about Neal. So, the writing for him was all over the place.

[Souris]

I've been curious about what we missed in the development of it all thanks to Colin's broken leg. Was it such a bad break that they had to write him out entirely? Could they not have worked around it?

 

MRJ made reference to "homeboy breaking his leg in like four places" at SDCC that summer, so I'm guessing it was pretty bad.

[KingOfHearts]

 

At the end of the day, I think it comes down to this--the writers never really cared enough about Neal. So, the writing for him was all over the place.

At the time of his death, he was dead weight to the show. Rumple was dead/captured/loony-fied so no interactions there, Emma had moved on, Henry had no good memories of him... everyone watching guessed he was going to be the one to die. Neal's only purpose was to be Henry's father, create angst for Emma, and be that OMG twist called "I know you're Baelfire". The writers didn't care that he was Rumple's son. It was just a twist for them. They're allergic to writing cynical characters, imo. He just didn't fit into the Saturday morning cartoon formula that S3 adopted.

Edited January 25, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

They're allergic to writing cynical characters, imo. He just didn't fit into the Saturday morning cartoon formula that S3 adopted.

 

There are plenty of cynical villains on the show, but that's the thing...the writers never wanted to openly admit that Neal was kind of a villain. You'd think that the one guy who was the most "normal" of the bunch would be a fairly grey character, but the writers practically gave him Saint status and still force the characters to constantly call him a Hero with a capital 'H'. I would have much preferred if he was more in the moral middle like Hook and Regina, where the good guys were still wary of which side they were on. Then, the cynicism would have worked better.

 

It still frustrates me that we barely got any Neal/Regina scenes. They're both kind of cynical, but Regina is a lot more snotty and snarky while Neal was realistic. If this was a character-driven show, we could have had a lot of potential there with the contrasting personalities debating parenting techniques and the struggle over who truly gets more say in Henry's life—the woman who raised him and did some terrible things to him in Season 1 and 2, or the guy who barely knows the kid but is his biological father. That's not even including Emma and how she'd react to all of that.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Curio

[Camera One]

I mean she did go to Tallahassee, or if August hadn't stolen that 20K from her, which did she ever find out about that? August is her good friend who screwed her over a lot.

On this show, "That's what friends are forrrrrrrrr...."

 

Maybe A&E made up their mind already, but for me, I wouldn't have minded seeing Emma and Neal hashing out their issues in 2B with more screentime together, Neal properly showing remorse and apologizing, Emma starting to heal, and then in Neverland learning more about each other as we see Baelfire's Neverland flashbacks, and falling in love more organically.  I think that could have been an alternate path the series could have taken which could have been just as "good" as what we have now.

Edited January 26, 2016 by Camera One

[YaddaYadda]

How long were Emma and Neal together. I don't think it was more than 3 months. I don't think they gave a timeline.

How long were Emma and Neal together. I don't think it was more than 3 months. I don't think they gave a timeline.

Edited January 26, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

Maybe A&E made up their mind already, but for me, I wouldn't have minded seeing Emma and Neal hashing out their issues in 2B with more screentime together, Neal properly showing remorse and apologizing, Emma starting to heal, and then in Neverland learning more about each other as we see Baelfire's Neverland flashbacks, and falling in love more organically. I think that could have been an alternate path the series could have taken which could have been just as "good" as what we have now.

 

I'm one of the few on these boards who doesn't hate Neal with the passion of a thousand suns, but I don't know how realistically that scenario would have worked out. I honestly wouldn't have minded Neal and Emma platonically working out their relationship as co-parents, and that would have been a good trajectory for 2B and 3A. But there was too much bad history there to ever actually see those two "organically" fall back in love and have it last. Could there have been some moments where they thought things might have been on the right track? Sure. I've been there before, wore that t-shirt. You think you can rekindle those feelings with an ex and make it work out again, but there's a reason an ex is an ex. Eventually, that puppy-love stage would have faded (and probably would have faded exponentially fast considering Neal and Emma had already gone through that stuff earlier) and would have self-imploded.

 

I mean, how well did Neal and Emma even know each other when they were teenagers/young adults? Not well enough to know that Neal's real name was actually Baelfire. Not well enough to know that Emma was pregnant. Not well enough to know that birth control is important. So why would we automatically assume these two people in their 30s are the exact same people they were when they were 17/24? Just because they happen to share a son together? Would their current personalities even mesh?

Edited January 30, 2016 by Curio

[tri4335]

There are plenty of cynical villains on the show, but that's the thing...the writers never wanted to openly admit that Neal was kind of a villain. You'd think that the one guy who was the most "normal" of the bunch would be a fairly grey character, but the writers practically gave him Saint status and still force the characters to constantly call him a Hero with a capital 'H'. I would have much preferred if he was more in the moral middle like Hook and Regina, where the good guys were still wary of which side they were on. Then, the cynicism would have worked better.

 

It still frustrates me that we barely got any Neal/Regina scenes. They're both kind of cynical, but Regina is a lot more snotty and snarky while Neal was realistic. If this was a character-driven show, we could have had a lot of potential there with the contrasting personalities debating parenting techniques and the struggle over who truly gets more say in Henry's life—the woman who raised him and did some terrible things to him in Season 1 and 2, or the guy who barely knows the kid but is his biological father. That's not even including Emma and how she'd react to all of that.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here Curio.  Neal on the show complicates the parenting issue with Henry.  With Neal in the picture with Emma and with the way she gaslighted Henry, Regina should be removed from his life.  That is not what LP or the creators wanted.  I think that is one of the reasons we didn't get any Neal/Regina scenes more than her referring to him as "that person".  I know lots of folks think that Neal was killed off to further CS but I've always felt that it had more to do with the Regina and Rumple storylines than CS.  Rumple/RC does not want to be redeemed and Regina/LP wanted a bigger role.  Neal/MJR is a roadblock to both of those agendas....in other writers' hands this could work but A & E are not that good.

 

On this show, "That's what friends are forrrrrrrrr...."

 

Maybe A&E made up their mind already, but for me, I wouldn't have minded seeing Emma and Neal hashing out their issues in 2B with more screentime together, Neal properly showing remorse and apologizing, Emma starting to heal, and then in Neverland learning more about each other as we see Baelfire's Neverland flashbacks, and falling in love more organically.  I think that could have been an alternate path the series could have taken which could have been just as "good" as what we have now.

 

If it could've been done right, then this may have worked but these writers are not capable of this type of story.  Neal was cruel and dismissive to Emma and I have no reason to believe that would've changed..  I mean we've seen how they've written Regina and Emma and Emma is always the one to be piled upon and I have no reason to think they would have done any better with Neal. 

 

One of the reasons that I like CS is that they play well off each other and though they both have hurt each other, they've at least have good give and take.  Both Neal and Regina are always written in the power position with Emma and she is rarely allowed to react in a true manner.

[Shanna Marie]

The Neal relationship I felt shortchanged on was with Rumple. I don't really see how Neal had to be killed in order to keep Rumple bad. It's not as though Bae worked as a leash to begin with. That's why he got the bean and tried to leave in the first place. There was all kinds of story potential there to delve into. This relationship is really at the core of the entire series. Without it, most of the other stuff never would have happened. Rumple corrupted Regina and conned her into casting the curse so he could find his son, which led to most of the hell Snow and David went through and all of the hell Emma went through. It even had a lot to do with what happened to Hook and Milah because Rumple was trying to get to the bean they had. Heck, it was largely because of Bae that Rumple got the nerve up to steal the dagger and then become the Dark One in the first place.

 

But after a century or so of Rumple trying to reach Bae and Bae becoming another person in order to escape his past (including his father), one little "no, I don't want to be 14 again, thanks" rebuff and Rumple's more concerned about his girlfriend and wooing her new personality. A few little squabbles and a death fakeout later, and Neal's all "I love you Papa." Neal barely reacted to the man Rumple is now and all the things he did after Bae left. He didn't really get a chance to try to act as a leash, and we never saw that Rumple was all that concerned about trying to be anyone Neal would be proud of. Neal was basically a lot like Belle, where he's okay with what was being done as long as it benefited him, so he changed his tune when Rumple was needed to save Henry or when he wanted the Dark One back to help him reach Henry again. And we never got a true reaction from Rumple about the kind of man Neal turned out to be. What did Rumple think of his son being a criminal and someone who abandoned his son before he was even born?

 

Actually, a cynical, realistic Neal might have been interesting alongside Rumple -- no longer the idealistic, heroic kid he was, but a jaded realist who understands that sometimes you have to do crooked, underhanded things to survive and help those who are important to you. That was kind of the way he was played, but I don't think they were doing that on purpose (the same way I don't think they're deliberately doing that with Belle).

[InsertWordHere]

How long were Emma and Neal together. I don't think it was more than 3 months. I don't think they gave a timeline.

Well, if we go by the 2001 timestamp when Emma met Neal, and assuming they met very early in 2001, like on New Year's Day, then they couldn't have been together for longer than 3 months at the very most in order for Emma to have Henry before her 18th birthday in October 2001 which has to have happened in order for him to be 10 on her 28th birthday. That's assuming Emma was pregnant for a month or two and still together with Neal before he sent her up the river and she had to request a pregnancy test in jail. 

[Faemonic]

I didn't get the hype around Endgame Pairing, either. I would totally have been happy with Hook just making everything slightly more complicated for Emma just by standing there with his blue eyes and perfect hair and throbbing voice, while Emma tries to focus and sort through the mess of her Babydaddy's return and occasionally catching one last snog with the pirate. And then when that burns out he moves on like the caddish bike he is to making life complicated in the same way for Ruby, then Sister Tinkerbell, then...I don't know, Jefferson. Then even if Swan Thief were the series endgame of epic romance, we'll always have Neverland. And I'd also be equally happy if Swan Thief were recognized as over and done with, and both of them are just untangling the threads from back when, and that'd be the present state of their relationship, so they're in each other's lives and it's awkward but not soooo much more than that.

As it was, the stinking love triangle angle made it out like Hook "won" by default. I wouldn't agree that there was really no Captain Swan Thief love triangle at all, but there was so much more to that dynamic than a formulaic love triangle romance...that these writers didn't go for instead. What a shame.

So, I guess the structure of this show does lend itself to Endgames. Snowing. ‎'>Manic Pixie Dust Boy Robin Hood. You just know that Rumbelle is never going to break up for real. Why do we have so many prominent romantic subplots at all. Remember when the first season was more about politics, crime, and family? I miss the first season.

[KAOS Agent]

 

And we never got a true reaction from Rumple about the kind of man Neal turned out to be. What did Rumple think of his son being a criminal and someone who abandoned his son before he was even born?

 

We kind of did in "Heart of Gold" where Rumpel basically rejected Neal and the man he was because they were a reminder of his failure. Rumpel couldn't deal with Neal as he was because the changes he saw in Bae were due to his own cowardice. I would have loved to have seen a conversation between Rumpel and Neal where they discussed Neal abandoning Emma due to his fear of his father. Neal lost his son due to cowardice as well. Would that give both of them a better understanding of the other?

 

I'm not sure that Neal as a leash isn't exactly why they killed him off. Belle gets put to sleep or runs back to Rumpel pretty easily. She's very forgiving. But she's also not really connected to the other characters like Neal was - just look how quick Belle was to not want to give Emma even a chance while Rumpel got millions because he's got a good heart. This isn't to knock Belle so much as something that points out where her heart is. Neal had a huge investment in Henry and (I'd say) a lesser one in Emma. Neal would kick his dad's ass after the shit he pulled with trying to hat Emma, enslaving/attempting to murder Hook, lying to/manipulating Belle and most especially the part where he was trying to kill Henry in the AU. No way that flies with Neal. He had to go.

 

On the Neal/Emma front, I think Emma having magic was a much bigger stumbling block to Swanfire than even their past issues and given their past, that's saying a lot. No way would he be the support Emma needs to deal with her magical Saviour-ness. He freaked out when she lit a freaking candle and saved his life. Can you just imagine how Neal would have dealt with Dark Emma? 

[Faemonic]

Well, if we go by the 2001 timestamp when Emma met Neal, and assuming they met very early in 2001, like on New Year's Day, then they couldn't have been together for longer than 3 months at the very most in order for Emma to have Henry before her 18th birthday in October 2001 which has to have happened in order for him to be 10 on her 28th birthday. That's assuming Emma was pregnant for a month or two and still together with Neal before he sent her up the river and she had to request a pregnancy test in jail. 

That's another reason I don't dwell too much on that bit of statutory rape on this show. First, being born earlier than Emma isn't the worst thing Nealfire has ever done to her, and I personally wouldn't excuse or condemn him for that based on his age. I absolutely wouldn't have forgiven Nealfire had he been younger. 13 is adulthood in medieval Europe. If he's wise enough to navigate deals with fairies and shadows with magic powers beyond his ken, and pirate captains (or just the one), he should have known better than to give 20 grand to shady Augustoccio. Second, Henry's age seems to show that it's just a matter of the writers not thinking it through and accounting for nine months of pregnancy. Remember the timelines we've seen: "A very long time ago" "5 years after a very long time ago" "Present day". The Dark One is immortal but with only 500 years of Dark One history they're only immortal for, like, a week.

 

I really think These Writers meant for Emma to have been just past the age of consent when Henry was conceived. Hey, I can't even ship Henry with Grace/Paige anymore once I realized that Grace/Paige is technically older than Emma, so I'm not saying, "Henry's 13? Oh, the actor's gonna be like 18 real soon, ship him with Granny it'll be fine (and totes hawt!)" No. I'm just saying that if there's any time to argue that age is just a number, it's with the statutory Swan Thief. It's just a number and TS;TW cannot maths.

[Rumsy4]

I really think These Writers meant for Emma to have been just past the age of consent when Henry was conceived.

 

Emma was meant to be underage because she was tried as a juvenile and the records were sealed. And in Oregon it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a minor. I grant you the writers didn't think through the implications of Emma's age or Oregon state laws, but I really do think they have issues depicting informed consent (look at Rumbelle now). If Neal had been closer to Emma's age, half the issues would have been eliminated;  24 and 17 just don't mix.

 

Both Neal and Regina are always written in the power position with Emma and she is rarely allowed to react in a true manner.

 

This is one of the biggest reasons why I can't buy Neal and Emma could ever have worked it out.  She was constantly walking around egg-shells trying not to hurt Neal. This is also the reason why the Regina & Emma friendship seems so forced. 

Edited January 26, 2016 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

That's another reason I don't dwell too much on that bit of statutory rape on this show.

I was deliberately refraining from calling it statutory rape in my post, but just the timestamp alone makes it nearly impossible for Emma to have been 18 when Henry was conceived. While the show has since had some interesting timestamps, the 2001 timestamp in There's No Place Like Home was put in after people had already pointed out multiple times to the writers that the math didn't work for Emma to have had Henry at 18 as she says in Heart of Gold and for Henry to have been 10 when he showed up at her door in the Pilot. Also, as Rumsy says, the records were sealed and it was explicitly stated in the show that she was a juvenile when she went to prison for having Neal's stolen watches on her.

 

Regardless of Emma's age, I cannot definitively call it statutory rape because Neal's physical age is unknown. The wanted poster says he is 24 but it also says he is American and he technically is not. Without knowing which year in our time he was able to leave Neverland, it's impossible to know his true physical age. That said, he was almost surely close to 15 when he went to Neverland, having just turned 14 when Rumple became the Dark One, and spending at least a few months with Rumple while he was killing mute maids and Pan was trying to Pied Piper him, then spending at least six months in London after he went through the bean portal. To become acclimated to our world, steal the bug, become a janitor (he would almost certainly have to look like an adult in order to get a job at a jewelry store) and steal the watches, would take at least another three years IMO or probably more like five. I think he also said that the watches had been in the locker for a while because he was unable to get to them due to his wanted status. 

 

So while I cannot definitively say it was statutory rape, I prefer to use the term you recently reminded me of in the Fandom thread, and say his relationship with Emma just really squicks me out. That word fits my feelings for this relationship perfectly. Regardless of his age or life experience, Emma was a 17 year old who had never had a stable or lasting friend or family member in her short life. Subsequently finding out about Ingrid and Lily makes the situation even worse for me. Knowing she had two people she did try to form bonds with, two people who were also lying to her about their true selves, and a year or two later she would meet Neal and still want to trust him, still let herself love him, and still be betrayed in the worst way by someone who was again lying to her about who he was, makes it even easier to understand why she built her walls so high and left them up for so long. Neal had 14 years with a loving father. Whatever trauma he went through later, it does not compare to Emma's life of countless foster homes. He had experienced at least some form of a stable and loving family. Emma had not. Physical age or not, they were not equals in emotional or mental maturity and he should have known better. 

[KingOfHearts]

 

While the show has since had some interesting timestamps, the 2001 timestamp in There's No Place Like Home was put in after people had already pointed out multiple times to the writers that the math didn't work for Emma to have had Henry at 18 as she says in Heart of Gold and for Henry to have been 10 when he showed up at her door in the Pilot.

There is a 2001 timestamp in Tallahassee as well when Emma and Neal meet for the first time. So for Henry's birthday to occur before or during October, Emma had to have conceived in January or early February at the very latest. Emma definitely was a minor at the time. Meeting, falling in love, going to jail and getting pregnant had to occur over the span of only a few weeks.

Edited January 26, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Faemonic]

Emma was meant to be underage because she was tried as a juvenile and the records were sealed. And in Oregon it is illegal for an adult to have sex with a minor. I grant you the writers didn't think through the implications of Emma's age or Oregon state laws, but I really do think they have issues depicting informed consent (look at Rumbelle now). If Neal had been closer to Emma's age, half the issues would have been eliminated;  24 and 17 just don't mix.

I agree with the bolded, will elaborate the rest after quote.

 

as Rumsy says, the records were sealed and it was explicitly stated in the show that she was a juvenile when she went to prison for having Neal's stolen watches on her.

 

Regardless of Emma's age, I cannot definitively call it statutory rape because Neal's physical age is unknown. The wanted poster says he is 24 but it also says he is American and he technically is not. Without knowing which year in our time he was able to leave Neverland, it's impossible to know his true physical age.

(...)

 

So while I cannot definitively say it was statutory rape, I prefer to use the term you recently reminded me of in the Fandom thread, and say his relationship with Emma just really squicks me out.

This Show brings squick back into common use.

 

Juvenile records sealed and Emma also giving birth in prison does break my "she wasn't a minor when it happened", but yes it's still a bad awful relationship even if they were both minors.

There is a 2001 timestamp in Tallahassee as well when Emma and Neal meet for the first time. So for Henry's birthday to occur before or during October, Emma had to have conceived in January or early February at the very latest. Emma definitely was a minor at the time. Meeting, falling in love, going to jail and getting pregnant had to occur over the span of only a few weeks.

This show does tend to fast-track those things, even pregnancy terms.

[YaddaYadda]

Reading some of the posts, especially the one about Gold washing his hands off Neal in "Heart of Gold", romantic relationships are fine and all, but the parent/child relationships are a mess and a bit of a nightmare.

 

• Rumple did not sign up for adult Neal. I'm not sure what he was expecting to find when he was looking for him. An eternal 14 year old?
• Snow did not sign up for adult Emma (I have a whole list of grievances). Had a replacement baby named after the man who knocked up her daughter.
• Hook's father sold his sons into servitude. Had a replacement baby he named after his first born.
• Malcolm left Rumple (yes, with women who were kind to him), youth over parenting! And then tried to take his great grandson's heart.
• Henry Sr. was such a weak man. Never stood up to Cora, and did not stand up to his daughter.
• Cora was an awful mother, left one daughter, and messed up the other one's life.
• Regina and Henry in season 1 and parts of season 2 was not a pretty sight.

 

Terrible.

[mjgchick]

Dont forget Regina locked her son out because her boyfriend of 2 hours wife came back. Also you'd think Regina would've let her vendetta against a 10 year old who did nothing but treated her like a daughter treats their loving mother but she didn't and continued to be a butt.

Seriously which parent hurt Adam and Eddy?

[Rumsy4]

I remember from the LOST days that both Damon and Carlton had real life Daddy Issues, and it was the same with Adam and Eddy. 

[mjgchick]

It was written all over the place how much they took their daddy issues out on the characters. It must be a mixed of both parents with Adam and Eddy because neither moms or dads are that good.