Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[KAOS Agent]

The only way to redeem Rumpel at this point is for him to die to save everyone. Even that wouldn't be a true redemption, it would be more of an atonement. There is nothing he can do that makes him worthy of living happily ever after or that would make me believe that he wouldn't revert to evil as soon as he felt the tiniest bit threatened.

 

As for a baby, redeeming Rumpel with Baelfire 2.0 would seriously diminish the meaning of his relationships with Baelfire 1.0 and Belle. So a brand new baby is the thing that makes Rumpel change? His wife and his other child weren't enough for him? That's pretty gross even outside of this silly notion that babies can fix everything.

[Camera One]

To A&E, the baby creates a "believable" impetus for another flip-flop in 5B.  I am astounded that they themselves don't see the problem with the see-sawing they do with this couple every half-season.  I know there are blind spots, but this is more like complete lack of vision.

[Curio]

The only way to redeem Rumpel at this point is for him to die to save everyone. Even that wouldn't be a true redemption, it would be more of an atonement.

 

I can definitely see the show making Rumple do a Dark Hook where he's about to do something super terrible, but at the last second, he decides to sacrifice himself. Except, no one will want to bring him back from the dead. Belle will have their baby and little Rumple Jr. will be Belle's reminder of "Rumple's humanity" and it'll be that cliche romantic tragedy trope where one lover dies, but the relationship lives on because the partner gets to raise their child. Ugh.

[Rumsy4]

The writers have made Belle into an incredibly naive enabler. It is not brave or praiseworthy to be this trusting and hopeful. Every time she breaks up with Rumple, Belle takes him back soon after. So, Rumple knows he doesn't really need to change to keep her around. All he needs is to do one decent act, and immediately Belle will think he is true hero and unselfish and has a good heart and whatnot. He keeps deceiving her and she keeps going back to him knowing that. 

 

She gave this speech about needing time to protect her heart and figure out what she really wants. But really, in her heart, she just wants to be with Rumple. There has to be a lot of self-deception involved to make her go back to him again and again. It's too much like a real-world abusive relationship, and it's disgusting that the writers keep peddling it as True Love.

[mjgchick]

 

I'm very confused about the message I'm supposed to get from Rumbelle. Is it supposed to be seen as toxic and abusive? Or am I supposed to see the power of love means forgiving endless deception and outright evil? Is Belle meant to be seen as confused or stupid or naive or completely enamored about being a hero who gets off on "saving" her husband?

You're suppose to forget about women empowerment, free will, equality etc... because ABC, the fans or whoever forced Adam and Eddy to put this couple they clearly could give a fuck about together.

[Amerilla]

What are they trying to tell us? That if you're a Rumbelle fan, keep watching the show. Enjoy the drama.That's all. There's no moral to the story. There's barely even a story. Anything that we think about it is more thinking than the show has put into it in years.

 

If they're doing a terrible job with Rumpel's overall story, there's simply no way they can tell a good Rumbelle story. Once they decided to snuff out - cleave, if you will - 99.999% of Rumpel's nascent humanity and turn him into a shit-stirring, moustache-twirling, horribly uninteresting "villain" with no goal other than dragging the story to the nearest finale, any sense of romance goes out the window, because Rumpel is no longer a faintly romantic/tragic figure. He's just out there swinging nonsensically at the next plot point. Belle is stuck swinging just as nonsensically to give the illusion that his actions are grounded, either in her pulling him towards her or pushing him away. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by Amerilla

[Camera One]

because Rumpel is no longer a faintly romantic/tragic figure. He's just out there swinging nonsensically at the next plot point. Belle is stuck swinging just as nonsensically to give the illusion that his actions are grounded, either in her pulling him towards her or pushing him away. 

 

Well put.  It's frustrating that they have eliminated a lot of the depth that Rumple used to have, by making him into the mustache-twirling villain.  Yet the writers still want the best of both worlds so whenever they want to claim that they're writing a "character driven story", they bring out Belle and have Rumple conflicted for 5 seconds.  It's such a disservice to both characters.  

[snarkybelle]

Well put.  It's frustrating that they have eliminated a lot of the depth that Rumple used to have, by making him into the mustache-twirling villain.  Yet the writers still want the best of both worlds so whenever they want to claim that they're writing a "character driven story", they bring out Belle and have Rumple conflicted for 5 seconds.  It's such a disservice to both characters.  

It would have been more interesting to have him as a non-magic person for 5b and have him struggle between choosing Belle & their new family or choosing magic/ evil.  He has enough knowledge to somehow gain magical power or at least utilize the magic objects in his shop.  It's not like he's completely helpless.  That would have been character development or at least something new.  

[Shanna Marie]

It would have been more interesting to have him as a non-magic person for 5b and have him struggle between choosing Belle & their new family or choosing magic/ evil.

Or at least have shown him having that struggle during this arc. As it was, he went straight to "I'm the best hero ever!" then acted like his old self with Hook, played hero again with Belle, then went off the deep end in snagging the darkness back. We didn't see if he was twitching from power withdrawal, didn't see him being frustrated by not having power, didn't see him using magical objects other than the bag o' dust. I guess they were too keen on the Big!Surprising!Moment! when it was revealed that he'd snagged the Darkness, but we didn't even get any sense of dilemma from him in making that choice. In making Belle leave town, they kept it from even looking like him having the chance at love but ultimately choosing power. As it was, he chose power, then got love (yet another charming moral message from this show).

 

I really think that "you never give up on the people you love" mantra and the way it's applied is one of the least healthy things this show promotes, and that really comes out with Rumple and Belle. There are times when giving up is the healthiest thing to do for yourself and for your loved one. In some cases, sticking with the person is just enabling them, and they'll never get better, while being willing to give up can be what forces them to shape up and saves them. There are some actions so heinous that a good person would give up -- the person would no longer be the person they loved. I think this latest bit with Rumple qualifies. A deception that huge has to be a dealbreaker for any non-doormat.

[Rumsy4]

There was a point in 5A where they could have gone the other way with Rumple's character. He could have been tempted to take his power back, but given up the idea at the last minute. Losing Belle (again) and seeing his worst enemy sacrifice himself could have motivated him to take his hail mary pass and make it stick. But the writers decided that it was reset time for Rumple. And if the go the route of "redeeming" him with a Baelfire 2.0, then it places a value judgement on the love he has for Belle vs his children. I guess it's like what they did with the Barney character in HIMYM. 

[Rumsy4]

I've been seeing posts in the vein of Emma having to choose between Hook and Neal and even Graham in the Underworld. Or that Hook will be torn between Milah and Emma. I find these sort of posts rather distasteful. The worst thing about the OQ/Marian triangle was the disgusting vacillation from Robin. So, I don't think my reaction is just because I ship CS. I also get pissed because Emma is the one judged harshly in these scenarios. Because I'm seeing people judging Emma for not crying over Neal enough, or letting Neal go easily, etc.. Do people cry over the death ex-lovers more than their current partners they are in a loving relationship with? It almost seems like the opinion of people who have never been in relationships, or so ship-driven that they can't understand people's reactions to grief can vary. This just reiterates my belief that some shippers don't care much about Emma at all. They merely see her as half of their OTP. 

[Selina K]

So, I don't think my reaction is just because I ship CS. I also get pissed because Emma is the one judged harshly in these scenarios. 

 

Well, it's always the woman's fault, right?  I won't go deep here since that's probably more of a "social issues" thread response, but we're pretty comfortable judging every aspect of a woman in a relationship, out of a relationship, crying, not crying, pining for lost love, being aggressive, not being aggressive enough.  There is almost no way for Emma to win.

 

I think if people are speculating Emma will be torn between Hook and anyone else, they're living out wish fulfillment.  She is going to the Underworld for Hook.  It was explicitly stated in canon "I will find you, Hook." not "I will find you and ... heyyyy, hi Graham. I forgot how hot you were."  It shows a profound lack of understanding of Emma's character if anyone thinks she is off the Hook ship in the UW.  It's TS:TW, but I have to pray that even they have enough sense that you don't send your heroine on an epic quest to resurrect her dead soulmate just to have her reconsider that maybe one of those other lost loves would suddenly be a better fit.  "Oh, I didn't know he was an option ...."  Just stupid.

[Camera One]

There's no need to worry.  The Writers want Emma and Hook, and that's what we will see at the end.  I don't see what the threat would be if Emma has a moment with Graham or Neal or whoever, or if Hook has a moment with Milah.  Just because someone prefers Graham or Neal, doesn't mean the person doesn't care about Emma.  The show could have written a redemption story for Neal, or they could have developed Graham further instead of killing him off, but they chose not to.  CS fans should feel happy that they get to see what they enjoy, rather than putting down other relationships which have already been kicked down the stairs.  Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot, and how badly they would feel.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I am not putting down other relationships, nor am I worried about CS. I would love for Hook and Milah to meet and get closure in the UW. OR Emma and Graham (not likely!). I don't care either way if Emma meets Neal or not (I think they got closure), but I would love for Henry to be able to see his dad again. I just dislike it when people judging Emma harshly for her relationship choices and reactions. However, I don't want to see a scenario where Emma is forced to choose between Neal for Henry's sake, or Hook. That would be the kind of drama I would hate for SF shippers (like kicking people who are down), and the backlash on Emma that would follow.

Edited December 17, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

I don't want to see that type of drama either.  That would essentially be triangle stories, which were never enjoyable to start with.  Especially when you already know the outcome, it's not any more enjoyable for fans of the couplings that are dead in the water, literally.

[Curio]

I don't see what the threat would be if Emma has a moment with Graham or Neal or whoever, or if Hook has a moment with Milah.

 

I agree. Relationships and friendships are complicated and meaningful and not black and white. I loved Graham's friendship with Emma and want to see them interact in the Underworld. (Unfortunately, that will never happen because Dornan is too big for the show now, and they don't want to touch the Graham/Regina issues with a 10 foot pole.) Does that mean I want to see a love triangle? Hell no. Even Neal and Emma interacting would be interesting, despite the fact that they already got decent closure during his death episode. But personally, I'd be more interested in seeing some Hook/Neal/Rumple interaction. If there was a fight between Rumple and Hook in the Underworld, whose side would Neal take? Will someone fill Neal in on all the terrible shit Rumple has done after Neal's death? Like how he's orchestrated Emma's death numerous times?

Edited December 17, 2015 by Curio

[mjgchick]

I think what Rumszy4 is saying is that they don't enjoy how Emma is being harshly judged based on her relationships not that SF or GE might come back to play. Emma will forever be judged when it comes to her relationships. It doesn't even have to do with ships. Last season she was dragged for staying angry at her parents for lying about the egg stuff. SQers drag Emma for not breathing Regina's air. CSers dragged Emma in S3 for putting up her walls with Hook. SFers seems to side with Neal even though he's the definition of a fuckboy who let his teenage girlfriend go to jail for his stupidity. It's just how this fandom seems to be.

Emma can't win with the fandom or the writers. lol

[Rumsy4]

I think what Rumszy4 is saying is that they don't enjoy how Emma is being harshly judged based on her relationships not that SF or GE might come back to play. Emma will forever be judged when it comes to her relationships.

Yes. That is what I meant. Thanks.

I blame the writers for a lot of it. The narrative is not sympathetic to Emma in complex situations. I still get mad at how much shit Henry gave Emma over lying about his father, or over bringing Marian back from the past, or the infamous lasagna incident. Any problems between Emma and her parents is blamed on her Walls or her unforgiveness.

[mjgchick]

The Marian stuff is just awful. Emma didn't regret saving her (all though now she might since Robin ended up raped by a Mills family member.) I've never seen a lead character be such a doormat In THAT episode. Maybe Buffy after everyone kicked her OUT OF HER OWN HOUSE?

As for Henry, I don't get how he didn't just understood why Emma lied. I also hate how everytime Emma actually treats Henry like the child he berates her. He seemed more mad at Emma leaving him out of her plans than Dark Swan taking some poor girls heart out in the end. He always think he can help fix things.

Edited December 17, 2015 by mjgchick

[Shanna Marie]

I don't expect these writers to go there, since they barely acknowledge that non-romantic relationships exist, but I could imagine a sort of "life triangle" to happen with Hook if he's reunited with all his lost loved ones in the Underworld and if he's not suffering too terribly (no more so than he does in the living world). If he's with the mother we've heard nothing about, has reunited and been reconciled with his father, is with Liam Prime, if Bae is there, Milah even in a non-romantic capacity, all the crew he lost in Neverland, would Emma balance that out and make him want to leave all those people to be with her? He's lived a really long life and had a hero's death -- Rumple's trickery doesn't change that, since Hook's intent should count in his sacrifice -- so as much as he loves Emma, would he want to go back?

 

Yeah, I know, the answer pretty much has to be "yes" since he's a regular character on a TV show, but if it were written right (ha!), that could be an interesting dilemma and source of conflict, and maybe providing an urgent reason for him to need to return (and launch into the next arc) might be what it takes.

[Selina K]

... would Emma balance that out and make him want to leave all those people to be with her? He's lived a really long life and had a hero's death -- Rumple's trickery doesn't change that, since Hook's intent should count in his sacrifice -- so as much as he loves Emma, would he want to go back?

 

That would kind of mirror Emma's season 3 "I'm going back to NYC."  For me personally, I don't want to see Emma compete with the dead to convince Hook to come back to Storybrooke with her.  I want this to be epic love enough for togetherness to be the goal for them both.  I'm ok with the external circumstances challenging them at this point, but I don't really want to see either of them dealing with the internal struggle to choose to be together in that there is a competing happiness that either could choose.  I want them to be each other's north star.

[mjgchick]

That...was so cheesy. lmao

[YaddaYadda]

I want this to be epic love enough for togetherness to be the goal for them both.  I'm ok with the external circumstances challenging them at this point, but I don't really want to see either of them dealing with the internal struggle to choose to be together in that there is a competing happiness that either could choose.

 

They've consistently chosen each other, even as Dark Ones, they managed to put each other first, so I'm not sure there will be any internal struggles for either one of them. 

 

Emma made her peace with Neal right before he died, and Graham is not coming back, and frankly, I don't want him to come back to tell Regina he forgives her for what she's done to him. Because we all know that will happen if he ever shows up on screen. So he's better off far away. I think with him, Emma mourned her friend, and what might have been. 

 

I think Hook put Milah to rest the day he decided that his revenge wasn't worth it anymore. I think the person he hasn't put to rest is his brother. And in the end, if Liam does come back, then that's the death he needs to really deal with imo, and that's the person he might be a bit torn up about leaving behind. 

 

I don't see this coming arc about people being torn up about whether they should be together or not, as much as it is about everyone being able to finally move on from their past without it haunting them.

[Rumsy4]

I don't want him to come back to tell Regina he forgives her for what she's done to him.

 

Or even worse, Emma tells Graham that Regina has changed and is deserving of happiness. 

Edited December 17, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Or even worse, Emma tells Graham that Regina has changed and is deserving of happiness. 

 

I've said it before. I never really cared for Graham, and I thought he was a bit on the boring side. What shocked me was his death. I was not expecting him to die, or die the way he did, and I thought the final moments when he collapses, and dies to be pretty crushing.

 

But since the writers refuse to see what they've done with Graham, and by extension Regina, then I super don't care about revisiting any of that if I'm not gonna get the closure I want. That story was dropped like a hot potato, they cut the scene of Emma confronting Regina about his death in 1x22.

 

And I can see Emma convincing him that Regina has changed, and is worthy of forgiveness, because everyone must forgive her, and she can keep not apologizing or feeling bad for anything that she's done to anyone. One thing I enjoyed with Dark Hook, it's that he called her out both in the present, and in the past (when he said the apple didn't fall far from the tree).

 

Hopefully, she gets a good dose of self-awareness minus the Saint Victimus act with this coming arc so that we can all move on from this.

[Shanna Marie]

I think Hook put Milah to rest the day he decided that his revenge wasn't worth it anymore. I think the person he hasn't put to rest is his brother. And in the end, if Liam does come back, then that's the death he needs to really deal with imo, and that's the person he might be a bit torn up about leaving behind.

That may be what they're setting up by bringing up that ring. Hook's been working his way back in his life on his redemption path, trying to make some kind of amends. He rejected revenge, which had a lot to do with his unfinished business with Milah, so he might be considered to have made his way back to where he was after Liam's death but before Milah's death. But he still feels like he's not the man Liam would have wanted him to be. If he gets a chance to catch up with Liam, he might get some peace from that and be more ready to move forward with Emma.

 

I don't think he's still angry at Emma about making him the Dark One, but I wonder how much "I'm not worthy" angst he'll feel in the aftermath of what he did. Yeah, he stopped it at the last second and sacrificed himself to save all the others, but will he consider that enough and accept that the fact that they came to the Underworld to get him means he's forgiven?

[Dianthus]

I also found myself wondering if Hook would have a hard time leaving the UW, given the reunion with 'our' Liam, but then I thought: no, he'd want to go forward rather than back (thinking it a real possibility), and Liam would prob'ly dope slap him otherwise. Also, A & E have said the UW is merely a stopover. I don't think Killian could 'stay' with Liam, even if a future with Emma wasn't on offer.

 

ETA: if they can forgive Rumple and Regina, which he knows they have, then he should be able to process his own forgiven state.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Dianthus

[chrisvee]

If UW is unfinished business, then I agree that Hook's is likely Liam. But then if that did end up happening, it's interesting to wonder what Liam's is -- Daddy Hook?

Edited December 19, 2015 by chrisvee

[YaddaYadda]

If UW is unfinished business, then I agree that Hook's is likely Liam. But then if that did end up happening, it's interesting to wonder what Liam's is -- Daddy Hook?

 

Or they're each others' unfinished business?

 

Liam took care of Hook since their father jumped ship on that responsibility, so I'd think his brother's well being is important to him, and he wants to see him happy before he moves on?

[Dianthus]

Poor Liam, he's been cooling his heels an awfully long time. LOL.

[Jul 68]

I loved Graham's friendship with Emma and want to see them interact in the Underworld. (Unfortunately, that will never happen because Dornan is too big for the show now, and they don't want to touch the Graham/Regina issues with a 10 foot pole.)

Who's to say that they won't recast the roll? They could be blind/dumb enough to do this and handle it all wrong.

[YaddaYadda]

I've sort of been wondering about something related to Regina's actions in 5x11 regarding Zelena. I'm not saying that Zelena had it coming to be sent back to Oz, especially with the whole quip about turning the baby wicked when she was taunting OQ, but Regina wielding the Apprentice's wand was her using dark magic to get it to work, and had nothing to do with her having confidence in herself. 

 

What sort of got to me was Robin standing there with a small smile of approval with what Regina was doing, not controlling her dark impulses, and reverting to her old Evil Queen ways. And this is something Regina has talked about a few times when threatening Zelena while Robin stood right there.

 

He's not being the voice of reason (though yeah, I know, it's Zelena), but still, when Emma wanted to kill Zelena, Hook wasn't down with that, and even tried to reason with her. Meanwhile, Robin isn't really shown as someone trying to reason with Regina, or trying to pull her out of whatever darkness she finds herself in.

 

Is it because he just plain doesn't give a crap what she does? This is the woman who is supposed to help him raise his children. And Regina seemed to be slipping back in her old ways. She projected a lot of her feelings about power, and darkness onto Emma. 

 

She got the wand to work in 5x11 when she couldn't in 5x01, and Hook's conclusion on was that she had done too much good, she basically no longer was the EQ. And while he was the Dark One, when she said she changed, he told to keep believing that. That seems to imply that he saw her slipping. And he would know, because he backslid a few times himself.

 

So what gives Robin? Is this him not really knowing Regina, or he sees her slipping and doesn't care?

[Dianthus]

Ugh, Robin is such a cipher! I mean, ok, he did stop Regina from blasting Zelena that one time (I forget which ep, exactly, but recent). Otherwise, he really doesn't seem too concerned, which, you'd think he would be. OQ is such a marked contrast with CS and Robin's just kinda there.

[Rumsy4]

I don't think he cares if Regina gives in to her Darker impulses on occasion. Didn't he say he has Darkness in his past? Maybe he can relate only too well.

[ImogenLeFay]

I don't think he cares if Regina gives in to her Darker impulses on occasion. Didn't he say he has Darkness in his past? Maybe he can relate only too well.

 

Until we see any proof of this supposed darkness, I will assume that Robin has no idea what he's talking about. As far as we know, what was his darkness? Stealing, okay. But he was doing that in rebellion to a tyrant. That's grey at the most, and probably only a very light grey - with all his talk of honor and codes, I'd be very surprised if he killed the people he stole from, unless they were soldiers. 

 

The point is, that's not very dark. Definitely nothing even in the same area as Regina. She's a mass murderer, a rapist, she burnt countless villages, and for what? For an insane quest for revenge on a ten-year old.

Even if we assumed Regina had a real redemption arc (which I do not buy, but not the point), there are tons of darkness, and that can't just be talked away. So Robin saying he has darkness in his past, even comparing that to Regina's past? It's absolutely ridiculous, it's insulting to her victims, it's insulting to the audience, and honestly, it's insulting to Regina and her perception of her own guilt. (Well, the one the show tells us she has. Works fine with my perception of her).

 

I think Robin just talked about his own darkness to make Regina's past sound less bad, so he doesn't have to feel bad about wanting her. "Sure, she did bad things, I did bad things, now they'll be good together." At least that way he doesn't have to actually deal with the fact that he loves a woman who has done absolutely horrible things.

[Lieutenant]

It's because Robin is there to entirely prop up and enable Regina in whatever she does.  The guy could literally be a cardboard cutout for all the effect he has on a scene.  He does love to pontificate about his "code," but you really never see him apply it to his current life and relationships (well, at least his main one with Regina).  Have we ever really seen him take her to task for anything questionable she does?  Has he ever challenged her to grow the hell up and get some perspective, knowing it might be unpleasant for her to hear, but also understanding it's what she needs to become a better person?  She can just up and decide to banish someone to another realm without nary a side-eye from him?  Oookay.  Robin is complete weak sauce, and if I was an OQ shipper (I'm ambivalent about them at best), I would be more than disappointed that he's what Regina has to work with.  

 

Then I look at Captain Swan, and can't even comprehend that those two ships were born from the same minds.  They aren't even in the same galaxy when it comes to a mature, constructive, loving, romantic, epic relationship.  

[kitticup]

I heard that Lana wanted a love interest for Regina. The problem is that Regina is in no place to have a romatic relationship with anyone. Think about she murdered her husband (Leo), her "boyfriend" (Graham) and her father. That is way too much baggage. The writer and Lana don't seem to want to delve into that and went to have a full fledged relationship so Regina's relationship is superficial.

Think if they had introduced Robin as a clergyman who is always on Lana's case to give more to the poor, more programs, more money, etc. that would hark back to robbing the rich to help the poor. He woul be the one to remind her of the things she's done. They could bicker with him trying to get her do what is right. Her finding she likes to do things right, and getting the "love and adoration" she wanted as she does good deeds. Over time as she is going down her path of redemption having his approval would come to matter to her. As a clergyman, it would make sense for him to put the past behind them as forgiveness tends to be a big part of religion.

[october]

I heard that Lana wanted a love interest for Regina. The problem is that Regina is in no place to have a romatic relationship with anyone.

 

She also pushed for a better relationship between Henry and Regina, but instead of framing it as 'Regina has to regain Henry's trust and learn to be a healthy parent,' she talked about it as if it was an issue of Emma coming in a usurping Regina's role as Henry's mother. Lana speaks about Regina as if the character is her friend and someone she wants good things for. And while that's not a bad thing on it's own, it does seem to be her only point of reference for the character and that POV doesn't lead to challenging and satisfying story arcs.

[mjgchick]

It be better if Regina wanted to be a better person for herself not for Henry, Robin or Snow. Also at least feel remorse for her victims. She has 4 of them (who are way better people than I am because I would've made sure she stayed locked up.)3 who she still don't really treat right. Then gloats about how she burned villages just to intimidate people. She could really learn a thing or two from guyliner.

[Camera One]

Regina has never proclaimed to want to be a better person for Snow.  She hasn't even apologized properly.  "It's complicated" still doesn't cut it.

[mjgchick]

I don't know she asked Snow in an insecure way if she stopped believing in her early in the season. I got the impression she does.

[KingOfHearts]

On my rewatch, I'm currently at 2x04, The Crocodile. It's very relevant after 5A. 

(And with Milah coming in 5B.)

What's funny to me is that the Rumpbelle problems start way back in 2A. Whenever things get tough or she sees something she doesn't like, Belle ditches Rumple and runs back. In 2x04, she sees him using magic and his reasons elusive. At this point he's not doing anything particularly evil, but Belle leaves without notice and tells Ruby she's heading for a break-up. 

 

She has left him in:
1x12 for him not believing she could love him.

2x01 for him breaking his promise not to kill Regina.

2x04 for him not giving a good reason for using magic

2x04 again for him being possessive of her against Moe

2x19 when Lacey is unimpressed

4x11 for him tricking her with the dagger

5x06 for him lacking the courage to fight Merida

5x10 for her to go to on a soul-searching quest

 

I'm all for leaving Rumple after he's done horrible things. But every time she does it, it's manipulative and for selfish reasons. All she does is punish Rumple every time he puts anything at a higher priority than her. To me, they're both deceiving each other. It's not a one-sided issue.

[KingOfHearts]

This show has a way of following up on something but making it look like it didn't. Emma's anger toward Neal is addressed multiple times through 2B and 3A. Neal even apologizes to Emma for what he did. But 3B onward, there's so much whitewashing that any payoff becomes moot. I don't want Emma holding a grudge for the rest of her life, but calling Neal a "hero" and being totally okay with her brother sharing his name were largely artificial. The writers used "Emma's" opinions to fill the needs of their plot at the time.

 

Neal's problem as a character was that what we were told and what we saw were different things. Don't tell me he's Baelfire then make him a douche. He can be interesting one way or the other, but to do both the transition needs to be explained. I'm fine with him being the jerk who broke Emma's heart. He's just not posthumously treated as such.

Edited January 14, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Rumsy4]

He apparently also gave his eleven year old son tips on how to pick up girls. And that is shown as a positive thing in the Show. The disconnect between what is show on screen, and what is said in dialogue is really huge when it comes to this character. 

[Camera One]

After 5A, the bar set for "hero" is pretty low.  What Neal did was stupid, but it did show he was desperate to get back to his son and he did quietly accept the fact that he had to die for everyone else's sake, so that did make him heroic to some degree.  I can also see how after he died, the characters would have preferred to think of the positives, and on A&E's end, the dumb baby naming and many of the subsequent callbacks were clumsy attempts to make it seem like they were remembering the character fondly even though they had zero interest in developing Neal, and chose to kill him off.  

[mjgchick]

That makes you wonder how Snowing and Co will treat Hook if they ever get him out of the Underworld.

[YaddaYadda]

That makes you wonder how Snowing and Co will treat Hook if they ever get him out of the Underworld.

 

Hook is the "hero" who gets the villain treatment at every turn. 

 

At this point, where we're at, and how some characters are still expressing doubt about Hook changing. I'm looking at you, David, btw, in case you had no idea.

[Shanna Marie]

That makes you wonder how Snowing and Co will treat Hook if they ever get him out of the Underworld.

Well, considering that David considered it a negative and a strike against Hook that he offered the Jolly Roger and took them all to Neverland to rescue Henry because he was doing it for Emma and only grudgingly praised him when he saved his life, and meanwhile never seemed to question the fact that Emma gave birth as a teenager in jail and Neal was never part of her life ... So the guy who put himself on the line for her sake is bad because he was doing it for her, but the adult who knocked up his teenaged daughter gets a pass.

 

Snow seemed to be a little bit more understanding of Hook in 5A, appreciating that he didn't choose to become the Dark One and that it happened because he took a risk in saving her life. David might be judgey, especially if he decides that Hook only turned around at the last second for Emma's sake, since apparently doing good things for his daughter is suspicious in his eyes.

 

ETA (I swear, hitting the post button sparks ideas): Since at this point they all seem to be going to the Underworld to help Emma save Hook because that's what the script said rather than for any obvious character reasons, there's no telling.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Shanna Marie

[YaddaYadda]

Mary Margaret got to see Hook in action in the EF when he was helping Cora as well. She is in a really good position to see the difference. 

 

David is like the ultimate goody two shoes. 

[Shanna Marie]

David is like the ultimate goody two shoes.

I love David, but sometimes I wonder if he's related to Belle because they're both often wonky in deciding what they consider good and bad and in who they decide to defend and champion. Plus, they mostly change their opinions when something directly affects them. Belle puts up with and excuses a lot of Rumple's behavior to other people, but when he betrays her she kicks him out. David doesn't give Hook credit for any of the good he does unless it benefits him directly (even helping his family doesn't score points).

 

It will all come down to whether the writers want teamwork or conflict in that particular episode -- will David make it clear that he's going along grudgingly only because it matters so much to Emma, or will he be on a crusade to save the man who was willing to die for them? It depends on whether they want David at odds with Emma and maybe Snow and want to raise some kind of suspense as to whether David will be on board with whatever crazy plan they have to come up with to save Hook or whether they want the Charmings to pull together in this crisis against a common foe and pull off an emotional rescue mission. The way David's been written, I could see either way, since he's so inconsistent.