Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Amerilla]

I don't think it's a matter of like or dislike - it's more what they need the relationship to do for the predominant character.

 

OQ is a faster burn becuase they needed Regina to have a specific motivation for her story in S4. CS can stay be a slow burn because it's not the major focal point of Emma's story.

 

But I don't completely agree it's a fast burn. OQ hasn't unfolded any differently than any of the other romances on the show: Girl Meets Boy, Girl and Boy Clash For Varying Lenghts Of Time While Still Being Totally Fascinated With Each Other, Boy and Girl Declare Love, Boy and Girl Are Separated By Angst.

 

The variations are in whether the story is told in a linear,  meeting-to-angsting way (Rumbelle, CS) or in a flashback-and-present day way (Snowing, Swanfire, OQ).  As it we learned by piecemeal in S3b, Regina and Robin did the meeting/clashing bits in the Missing Year, then did Declaration/Angst part Storybrooke without initially remembering that year. But they hit all the main points as the other couples: they met in an unusual way, their personalities clashed at first, but there was a sense of understanding from one of the parties (specifically, Robin trying to stop Regina from jabbing herself with the sleeping curse in her grief over losing Henry), that later turns into mutual recognition of attraction, and eventually, of love. At which point they are separated by outside forces. In terms of the timeline, because of the Missing Year, they've actually been a slower burn than all the other couples, it's just most of #ItHappenedOffscreen. 

[KingOfHearts]

I find it odd that Regina spent most of her life swearing vengeance over the loss of her True Love, then she immediately goes into the arms of the first man who says she's bold and audacious. This is the woman who hates moving on from anything and yet she goes full throttle on opening her heart for a guy she initially despises and mocked. He also cheated on his wife (well, intentionally) and couldn't tell the difference between Maid Marian and the Wicked Witch. He's broken his code of honor multiple times and she even called their relationship off after Robin kept baiting her.

 

Regina is one of the most stubborn characters on the show, so it's hard to imagine her getting romantic with a guy she hasn't had many good memories with. (Besides you know... crypt sex.) She does have walls and the show doesn't give much reason for her dropping them for him so quickly. I didn't think she had that much interest in a full relationship with a man before she got together with him.

 

(I don't count Graham. That was not a relationship.)

Edited August 23, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Regina is insecure and she's worried Robin is the only one who is going to love her for her, with all her psycho baggage.  Plus she probably feels it was pre-ordained thanks to Tinkerbelle.  The Zombie Daniel episode also abruptly forced her to get over Daniel once and for good.  I'm suddenly envisioning myself as the new ReginaFan3829 as I type this, but that's why she has finally opened her heart to love with Robin Dud.  

[KingOfHearts]

 

Plus she probably feels it was pre-ordained thanks to Tinkerbelle.

Totally forgot about this. I bet if it wasn't, Regina would have stayed away.

 

 

Regina is insecure and she's worried Robin is the only one who is going to love her for her, with all her psycho baggage.

It's sad really - she doesn't love Robin because of who he is. She only loves him because he's her certified Happy Ending powered by pixie dust. I can't think of one thing she'd be attracted to, except maybe for the fact he has a son.

 

 

The Zombie Daniel episode also abruptly forced her to get over Daniel once and for good.

I don't really think Regina needed a love interest right away. It's like he's some reward for her good behavior, rather than a new character she can form a bond with. A man comes with the Happy Ending package according to this show. I wouldn't mind her finding someone eventually, but I'm with Cora - even the Sheriff of Nottingham would have been a better match than Robin for her. Of course, anyone is better than the man whose wife she murdered.

Edited August 24, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I must say the Sheriff of Nottingham guy has charisma, despite the smarm.  

 

I agree that Regina didn't need a love interest right away.  Frankly, I don't think Emma needed a love interest in Season 3 either.

Edited August 24, 2015 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

 

I agree that Regina didn't need a love interest right away.  Frankly, I don't think Emma needed a love interest in Season 3 either.

 

I hate that Regina was given a love interest or at least one that is pre-ordained as The One so quickly. In my opinion, she needed to work out her issues with herself before anything happened on the romance front. Some mild flirtation with a couple of guys might have been good and would give the audience something to root for rather than the forced soulmates thing they've got going. At least it would allow for some chem testing and also give them an out if the audience responds with a big meh like has happened with Outlaw Queen. I mean, the network made them add an Outlaw Queen scene into an episode because they figured we'd forgotten who Robin was. What that hell does that say about the response to Outlaw Queen?

 

On the Emma front, truthfully, Emma didn't really have the True Love interest in S3. She got the flirtation thing that I think Regina could have benefited from. Yes, Hook was in love with her, but Emma wasn't caught up in some romantic whirl where everything revolved around a guy. Emma/Hook was kind of a background thing and did not involve her just suddenly in love with a guy because he had a tattoo. At least she was processing and thinking about things. She also had Walsh in there to help her transition to a more open and normal life.  Neal screwed her over and yes, Walsh sucked too, but I think it helps to explain Emma's openness to romance having experienced some positive aspects of it rather than just the one night stands she'd had since Neal left. 

[Curio]

So I don't really understand why OQ can't have their own thing.

 

Oh, Regina and Robin have their own thing. It's just called: fairy dust verification, crypt sex, and rape baby love triangles. Sounds like a True Love formula to me!

[Shanna Marie]

I agree that Regina didn't need a love interest right away.  Frankly, I don't think Emma needed a love interest in Season 3 either.

I agree about Regina, and giving her a pixie-dust-guaranteed soulmate so soon really undermined her character development. This is a person whose problem has always been that she's never happy, that's she's always looking for something or someone else to give her a happy ending -- all I need is for Snow White to die, all I need is the curse, all I need is a child, all I need is to get Henry back, all I need is Robin. For her supposed redemption and development to work, she needs to learn to be content on her own without always looking for something else, and even at the beginning of the latest arc, she went straight from "I'll never be happy without Henry" to "go away, kid, I'm sad about Robin." They really undermined her "I write my own happy ending" epiphany by having it come right after she got Robin back, with no guilt because it turns out that his wife really was dead all this time. She already had what she'd been looking for when she learned that she didn't need to rewrite the universe to get it. At the very least, she should have decided she wrote her own happy ending before she found Robin again.

 

But with Emma, I think her getting into a relationship enhances her character arc. As an adult, Emma has seemed to be pretty self-contained and content. Maybe it was because she lowered her expectations, but she didn't seem to always be looking for more. She's never been shown to be looking for love or a happy ending or anything else outside herself, even while she's been focusing on helping other people find their happiness. This is a person who's primed to have love come into her life when she's least expecting it, to experience someone else doing for her what she does for others. She does have her parents, but there's a lot of pain and baggage there. Her getting into a romantic relationship is forcing her to raise her expectations of others, to be vulnerable, to realize that she does deserve more than what she's got. Just as learning to be content in and of herself would be a sign of growth for Regina, learning to connect to another person and accept love is a sign of growth for Emma.

 

As for rebuilding the bar as a set to mirror the scenes, that seems downright silly. Did anyone notice that it was the "same" bar? If they did, did anyone get excited about how meaningful that was? Or would they just figure it's the nearest bar to Neal's apartment? There are no parallels between the Emma/Neal bar conversation and the Regina/Robin one. This is one case where I kind of have to suspect SQ pandering, with the parallels being drawn not between the relationships but between Emma and Regina, because they're sooooo much alike since they've gone through the same things. I mean, they had conversations with (former?) lovers in the exact same bar!!!

[Rumsy4]

The Regina/Emma friendship was a huge overarching theme of Season 4. The Frozen arc was introduced to underline the themes of friendship, and the Elsa/Anna relationship was supposed act as a parallel to the friendship between Regina and Emma (even though Regina is nothing like Elsa). Emma promises to find Regina her Happy Ending in the first episode of the season.

 

The infamous 4:05 episode was meant to highlight Emma's determination, and show how similar Emma and Regina were (never mind how illogical that argument was). The extreme verbal berating that Regina gave Emma was so over the top, that I can't imagine what A&E were thinking beyond taking some kind of perverse pleasure in seeing Emma grovel to Regina. There was also a deleted scene during the Season 3 finale where Emma is on her knees in front of Regina as the Evil Queen, and Regina calls her a "dirty street rat". And yet, we are supposed to root for a one-sided friendship between the two.

 

In the Season 4 finale, Emma sacrifices herself to ensure Regina's Happy Ending. According to Eddy, Emma delivers on the promise she made Regina when she promised her a Happy Ending. I still don't really get what was driving Emma to sacrifice her time, energy, and ultimately, her soul, to ensure that. Was it guilt over "ruining" Regina's romance with Robin? Was it to keep Regina happy so she wouldn't revert back to killing people (the Lasagne effect). Or did she really believe that Regina deserved a Happy Ending and had worked too hard for it? If it is the latter, then Emma has lost several backbone and IQ points since Season 1. 

 

Theoretically, I can see why A&E would want Regina and Emma to become friends. It would be a interesting development of their relationship to see how far they've come since Season 1. However, IMO, Regina should have been the one making all these overtures. Sadly, Regina doesn't feel any remorse over ruining Emma's life, and she thinks she is entitled to happiness because she stopped killing people. So, it's up to Emma to be the bigger person, and prove to Regina that she is sincere about this desire to be her friend. Yeah--I'm still bitter about it all.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

However, IMO, Regina should have been the one making all these overtures.

 

But it's never Regina who makes that effort even though as you said, she should be. She fucked up countless lives, she should be the one seeking forgiveness and acceptance. Instead, you have Mary Margaret because she feels guilty about Cora and has some serious mommy issues and Emma tripping over their feet to make Regina happy, keep Regina happy and for what? Regina feels entitled to her happy ending even though she shouldn't. I'd like to say that Regina's karma is coming back at her, but is it really? Robin is the one who was used as a pawn in Zelena's head game with her sister. It's not like Regina is the one who is paying for this even though she feels like she is because life hates her so damn much!

 

I think this whole thing with Emma and Regina goes back to one line in season 2 after Emma was back from the EF. She invited Regina and when Mary Margaret asked her why (or something like that), Emma's reply was that she was given a chance a long time ago and she's just doing the same now.

 

I guess we'll see what Regina is really made of in this coming season and if she puts her money where her mouth is and becomes a true, genuine friend to Emma or if this thing is really once sided. And I'm not talking about something like in 4x20 where she talks her down. Emma just sacrificed everything not to just ensure Regina's happy ending, but most everyone else's in a town where she was supposed to bring back the happy endings. 

[mjgchick]

When ever I see the writing for Regina and Emma then I compare it to Emma and Elsa or really Emma and anyone I wonder why do they write every Regina relationship where everyone else trips over themselves to make her happy when she doesn't seem to give a fuck about doing the same? The only person she's ever even tried to make amends with was Henry and even that was some half ass writing. I'm still confused on why they refuse to let the characters get mad at Regina. She's a so called hero now why is she not getting yelled at for ruining lives when Snow is called a villain for killing Cora a known abuser out of self defense? Why should I want Emma to be friends with this rude person after you've given us the wonderful Emma and Elsa friendship. Or Emma and Killian friendship from S3? Emma and Mary Margaret from S1? We all know they can write friendships well they just refuse to do it with Regina.

[Camera One]

She invited Regina and when Mary Margaret asked her why (or something like that), Emma's reply was that she was given a chance a long time ago and she's just doing the same now.

 

Which sort of worked back then since the whole idea of Regina as the Evil Queen was an abstract concept which would have been very difficult for Emma to believe (aside from trying to poison her with the apple turnover... whatevs...).  

 

But now that Emma has seen in person how cruel Regina could be back in the Enchanted Forest, and she saw Regina literally kill her mother in front of her?  

 

However, A&E are smart.  Now they can say Emma has also seen Snow being the Evil Queen and also Charming killing Hook in front of her, so if Emma can get over that, then there's no reason why she can't accept that Regina in the present is a different person.

Edited August 30, 2015 by Camera One

[october]

But it's never Regina who makes that effort even though as you said, she should be. She fucked up countless lives, she should be the one seeking forgiveness and acceptance.

 

I very much agree. It's why I buy Hook's relationships with the likes of Emma and Belle, despite the wrongs he's committed. He had to work for it and rebuild his reputation from the ground up. I strongly suspect that if Emma or Belle had rejected Hook he'd blame himself not them. I can't image that there'd be a lasagna-situation where we'd be encouraged to blame Belle for not wanting to hang out alone with the guy who kidnapped and shot her.

 

I was watching some Youtube videos of Lana at one of the Paris cons and when she spoke about Regina it felt like getting mental whiplash. 'She's done all these terrible things.... she's killed people... slaughtered villages.... but she can't help it... she has a beautiful heart... she's couragous!' It's as if we're expected to accept Regina on her own terms and see her murders and other crimes as amusing character foilbles.

Edited August 30, 2015 by october

[Mari]

'She's done all these terrible things.... she's killed people... slaughtered villages.... but she can't help it... she has a beautiful heart... she's couragous!' It's as if we're expected to accept Regina on her own terms and see her murders and other crimes as amusing character foilbles.

Well,  yes.  You don't?   What on earth is wrong with you?   :)

 

Actually, when I squint, tilt my head a little, and turn down empathy for others a little, I can sort of see it.

 

Looking at it completely from Regina's point of view, it's easy to minimize and transfer blame for a lot of her crimes.  

 

• Regina was a victim of child abuse.  She was raised by Cora and Henry Sr. and one was controlling and one seems to have stood idly by. 
• She fell in love with someone she knew she'd never be allowed to be with.  Before she could convince herself to run away with him, Regina saved someone's life, and that person betrayed her, causing Daniel's death.
• She was forced to marry a much older--possibly controlling and abusive--man, and for years forced to be in a relationship with the person who betrayed her.  
• She was controlled and manipulated by the Dark One.
• She was set up by Tinkerbell
• She finally allowed herself to consider forgiving Snow White for her betrayal, and Snow White rejected her again.
• In order to thwart her evil mother's domination plans, she was forced to sterilize herself, and was unable to have biological children.
• She finally allowed herself to love a child, and the child rejected her in favor of the person who gave him away.
• Her mother reappears in her life, and when Cora's finally willing to accept her, Snow betrays Regina (again) and forces her to kill her own mother. In the aftermath, Regina's own child is kidnapped and put in danger.
• She reluctantly allowed herself to trust her child's other parent, and Emma betrayed her by ruining her relationship with the new man she'd come to love.
• She finally allowed herself to care about a man, and he slept with someone else.  On top of that, the woman was pregnant.  (See a few points earlier for the extra sting.)
• She's repeatedly forced to help and spend time with people who've betrayed and rejected her, for the good of the town, for her own safety, and for the safety and well-being of her son.

 

 

Has Regina lashed out?  Well, yes.  But look at that list.  Wouldn't anyone?  And a lot of the evil things she did were because of being controlled and manipulated by the Dark One.  Therefore, they're not her fault.    Plus, some of the actions were Regina trying to harm herself.  She just didn't realize the impact it would have on other people.

 

Despite all that darkness, Regina soldiers on, trying to find a little bit of happiness.

 

Now, do I think that's a load of  . . . something?

Absolutely.

 

It completely takes away almost all of Regina's personhood and decision making.   It assumes that in any conflict with another person, Regina was the victim, and lays the blame for Regina's actions almost completely at the feet of Cora, Rumple, and Snow.  It makes her basically the puppet of everyone around her, and totally ignores that a great deal of Regina's pain was self-inflicted tantrumming.  

 

But, if you are playing the character, or she's your gateway character?  That might be some of how you'd look at it.  

Edited August 30, 2015 by Mari

[october]

Oh I know perfectly well what other people see in Regina thanks. And it gives me a headache (hence the whiplash).

[Camera One]

From A&E to Mari:

 

We just read your bulleted list.  There is no need to read any more.  You have the perfect mindset to be part of our writing team at "Once".  Welcome aboard!  

[KingOfHearts]

 

It completely takes away almost all of Regina's personhood and decision making.   It assumes that in any conflict with another person, Regina was the victim, and lays the blame for Regina's actions almost completely at the feet of Cora, Rumple, and Snow.  It makes her basically the puppet of everyone around her, and totally ignores that a great deal of Regina's pain was self-inflicted tantrumming.

Replying in Regina thread.

[babyPhat279]

I don't care what the writers say - at some point people grow up and learn how to be somewhat normal members of society. Once Regina had enough power to send her mother away, I think she lost any excuses for her behavior. As for Emma being nice to her because she didn't actually see her as the evil queen until the end of season 3 is B.S. too. Regina hired Gold to "take care of" Kathryn all in the name of framing Mary Margaret, for god's sake. If that doesn't say psycho hose beast, I don't know what does.

[Mari]

From A&E to Mari:

We just read your bulleted list. There is no need to read any more. You have the perfect mindset to be part of our writing team at "Once". Welcome aboard!

Ha! Wouldn't they be surprised when they got the first script I wrote. That would be the shortest-lived job I ever had.

Open scene: Regina is texting on her phone while crossing the street.. A large, vintage-looking bus careens around the corner.

Fade to black.

New scene: Coffin being lowered into grave. Matter-of-fact, somber looking Storybrookers start talking about going to Granny's for waffles. Leroy is overheard talking about how freeing it is to not have to pander to Regina's ego and neuroses all the time.

ETA

Thanks, Curio!

That's ...freakishly close to what I'd imagined, and its been years since I've seen that movie. Ive forgotten most of it.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Mari

[Curio]

Open scene: Regina is texting on her phone while crossing the street. A large, vintage-looking bus careens around the corner.  

 

And that's how Regina Mills died.

 

In an attempt to get the discussion back on the relationships...does anyone else find it odd that Belle still isn't very close with the main characters? And Emma specifically? Why was she paired up with Will during all of 4B when she could have become close friends with Emma? Has Belle even shared a scene alone with Emma where they bonded or spoke more than 2 sentences to each other? Why don't they hang out during their free time? Why does Emma have a screwed up friendship compass that makes her want to be friends with Regina and completely ignore the nice girl in town who also had her heart broken? Why isn't Emma fetching kale salads for Belle at the library? Promising her that she'll deliver her a happy ending, too? Why is Belle's only role with the Charmings to be their babysitter? #Emma&BelleDeserveBetterFriends

Edited August 31, 2015 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

 

In an attempt to get the discussion back on the relationships...does anyone else find it really odd that Belle still isn't very close with the main characters?

Sometimes it seems like the characters are entirely apathetic toward Belle. None of them talk to her unless they absolutely have to. It gets downright awkward in scenes like 3x11's where Belle falls to the ground crying over Rumple's death while everyone else just stands around emotionless, or in 4x11 when no one bothered to check on Belle after her big breakup with Rumple. (That we saw.) The only times I ever remember Emma speaking to her was whenever she needed something researched.

 

Whenever Belle interacts with another non-Rumple character, they never do ever again. The only exception is Hook, but that's just because it directly relates to you-know-who.

Edited August 31, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

They haven't taken the time to build Belle's relationship with any of the other characters except for Rumple.  As you said, the episodes where Belle has actually gotten to be her own character have tended to be with guest characters we rarely see, like Red, Ariel, Anna, Mulan and then in 4B Will (I guess they gave her Neal but killed him off in the same episode).  It's largely because of how the writers partition the stories by characters/couples.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

I'm sure this isn't what they intend to depict, but I can kind of see why the others wouldn't want to be friends with Belle. True, she'd be a much, much, much better friend than Regina (unless her whackjob boyfriend was involved somehow), but it's a real strain trying to be friends with someone who's in an unhealthy relationship with a total psycho and who refuses to see the psycho for what he is, always making excuses for him and claiming that he's good inside even if no one but her can see it. It's even worse when they go through repeated breakups and makeups -- she strikes out on her own, then gets back with him, she learns that he lied to her and kicks him out, but then takes him back. So, she did have a good start at a friendship with Ruby when she decided to try being on her own for a while, but then was back with Rumple five minutes later. I guess Snow using her as a babysitter is giving her a potential escape route and keeping avenues open, so Belle always has the "I need to babysit" excuse. Emma just seems to have not had a lot of reasons to spend time with her, or has had her own stuff going on, but I can't imagine Emma having a lot of respect for Belle.

 

I guess they were looking for something for Will to do, but that was a big mistake because it didn't make anyone look good. Belle getting into a new relationship right after kicking her husband out, then ditching the new guy after admitting that she really loved her husband all along, in spite of catching him in the act of attempting to murder someone and in spite of him deceiving her repeatedly, made her look fickle. And then there's Will's missing wife. I still think that the bit with Rumple's jealousy would have been far stronger if it had just been about her friendship with Hook. Rumple has reasons to be paranoid about Hook getting close to his wife, and him getting angry and jealous about that would have then looked more about his issues with Hook than with him trying to control Belle's life. Rumple at least appearing to be able to move past that and accept Belle's friendship with Hook would have looked a lot more like clear evidence to Belle that he really had changed, instead of him coming across as creepy in "allowing" Will to have her heart.

[Amerilla]

I suspect the showrunners/writers would say that Belle is fairly close, even extended family, to the Charming clan, but most of #ItHappenedOffscreen.

 

That really struck me watching the deleted scene where Belle is talking to David while Snow dithers over leaving Snowflake. They were all just very comfortable with each other and very comfortable with her being with Rumpel, even to the point of hinting about her and Rumpel adding their own branches to the family tree.

 

When you think about it, she's spent much more time living with the Charmings and Regina in the EF in the Missing Year than she's spent with Rumpel in Storybrooke; she's spent more time alone in Storybrooke than with him. There's no indication onscreen that people see her as an extension or cheerleader for Rumpel, or that anybody holds her relationship against her. These are people who bend over backward to make Regina feel loved and accepted - they're not in the position to criticize or hold Belle at arm's length for doing the same thing with Rumpel. I'm not sure it would even occur to them.

 

Plus, there's no doubt that she's on their side, that she sees the world the way they do. She's never aligned with him against them - in fact, in S4, she worked with them at what turned out to be cross-purposes to him. There's never been a point at which she's chosen him over the greater good. Even when she resurrected him in S3, it was as much about the defeating Wicked and getting Nealfire back to Henry and Emma as it was about reuniting with her lost love. 

 

Scarlet Beauty was really more about Rumpel than it was about Belle and Will. For them, it never seemed much more than a light flirtation between two broken hearts. There was never really a question of Belle no longer being in love with Rumpel; you don't stop loving someone that quickly unless you really are fickle. Will, for all we know, was still deeply in love with his wife. It was Rumpel that perceived it as some sort of romance.

 

I think it was more important what Rumpel was not in that whole part of the storyline than what he was. If Belle represented that last little pinprick of red left in his heart, he did his best to do right by her. She didn't just dump him, she took away his power, she shoved him into a terrifying world with no ready way for him to get back to safety, and she walked away. Anyone else, they'd be dead three seconds after he strutted over the Town Line. But with Belle, he wasn't angry, or vengeful, or confrontational. He stayed in the shadows and was cloaked himself in guises that she wouldn't find frightening. This was the opposite of how he had reacted to Milah's abandonment - here, he gives Belle her heart back. He's not trying to prove he's changed, he's not trying to win her back. When the AU falls apart, he accepts that it's done, he wants her to go see the world and be happy with someone else. 

 

Not arguing this makes him a great guy, just that it's interesting to view Scarlet Beauty from his perspective and how it speaks to the ways that Belle functions as a force in his personality. 

Edited August 31, 2015 by Amerilla

[mjgchick]

I wish we'd get characters who don't usually have scenes together. Charming with Regina, Emma and Belle(or Robin maybe she could give him a personality.) or Killian with Snow. Do something different to let us know that these people actually like each other that extends more than just the Charming clan + a Regina.

[Curio]

I wish we'd get characters who don't usually have scenes together. Charming with Regina, Emma and Belle (or Robin maybe she could give him a personality.) or Killian with Snow. Do something different to let us know that these people actually like each other that extends more than just the Charming clan + a Regina.

 

It's hard for me to even imagine how these combinations would play out because we never get to see them on screen alone together. I'd love to see an entire episode where something splits the group up and Charming has to begrudgingly work alone with Regina (he's one of the few people left on the show who isn't afraid to snark at her), what Belle and Emma would even talk about since they don't seem to be that close of friends, and how Snow would treat Hook now that he's dating her daughter and they've never shared a scene alone with each other. And now that Robin has joined the main group, why not have him interact more with other characters not named Regina? Has he even spoken a single sentence to Hook since he's joined the show?

 

But as it stands, the only combinations the writers want to give us are: Regina/Henry, Regina/Emma, Regina/Snow, Regina/Robin, (I'm sensing a trend...) Snow/Charming, and Emma/Hook. Every other character combination on the show is lucky if they get a few sentences together in the entire season. And that apparently includes Belle/Rumple now.

[Camera One]

We get so little Emma/Snow, Emma/Henry and Snowing/Henry that it's hard for me to even think about other character combinations.  Since this is the core family we're talking about, and their relationships with one another have been deeply neglected.  Even when Snowing's subplot involves Emma, they hardly get to talk to her.  All we get are Snow and Charming echoing each other's words, which fulfils A&E's quota for Snowing, but it's all empty calories and deeply unsatisfying.  

 

By the same quota, characters like Belle and Robin's word counts are probably up there, but it's all white noise because they are only allowed to repeat the same sentiments over and over.  I mean, even that babysitting deleted scene with Belle, while technically giving Belle screentime, felt mostly functional.  I think her scene with Hook in the 4B premiere was more effective because it allowed her to express her deeper feelings.  Throwing random characters together, like Charming and Robin, in "The Tower" didn't do much to flesh out Robin either.  So there needs to be more, not necessarily quantity but quality writing for these relationships to feel convincing.  Quantity does sometimes force some quality to be squeezed out.  For example, since Anna, Elsa, Ingrid and Young Lily were given so much screentime, there allowed more opportunity for moments to shine through and relationships to develop.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

The last time we saw Charming and Regina interact was in 2A when they were fighting over custody of Henry. Before that, it was the seduction episode in S1.

[mjgchick]

I liked Charming and Regina'a dynamic because he is the only person who still gets to throw shade at her. When they were fighting over Henry it actually felt real even though he just met Henry as his grandson.

[Shanna Marie]

When you think about it, she's spent much more time living with the Charmings and Regina in the EF in the Missing Year than she's spent with Rumpel in Storybrooke; she's spent more time alone in Storybrooke than with him.

That's a good point. I suppose there was the time she spent with him in his castle, but since then, it seems more like she's in love with the idea of him than with the actual person, since she doesn't really know the actual person, having spent so little time with him in quite a while.

 

As for the way others react to the relationship, it's easy to forget that they haven't seen all the stuff we've seen. Does anyone other than Regina, Robin, Hook, and Mo know that she was ever Rumple's prisoner, that this was how their relationship started? Hook told Emma that Rumple murdered the woman he loved, but does anyone other than Rumple, Belle, and Hook know that woman was Rumple's wife? No one else seems to know about Belle watching Rumple beat Hook nearly to death. No one but Rumple and Smee seem to know that Rumple was destroying the posters she made to look for her father right after the curse. So it probably looks a lot worse to us than it does to them.

 

Still, after season four, I would have to think that most people would be planning an intervention if she tried to get back together with him -- the revelation of all the things he was doing about the hat, the fact that he was lying all along about what happened to Elsa and Anna, the fact that he let Belle feel bad about hiding her encounter with Anna from him even as he was lying to her, the fact that he gave her a fake dagger, the fact that he kept putting her under a sleeping spell to keep her out of the way, the way he posed as Hook to deceive her and get the dagger back, the fact that he brought the Queens of Darkness to town and tried to turn Emma dark to achieve his own ends, him having everyone sent to a fantasy world and essentially erasing their memories and personalities to fulfill his own little personal fantasy and being willing to kill to stay there. At this point, if she's still talking about what a good heart he has, someone needs to tell her to get a grip. (Or maybe I've just dealt with too many real-world situations of the friend who can't seem to let go of a significant other so toxic that he/she causes harm to everyone in the vicinity, so this is hitting my personal sore spots.)

 

I still think the whole Lacey storyline was a huge misstep. It would have had the same long-term effect while keeping Belle from looking so deluded if she'd ditched him after learning about Milah and seeing him beating Hook, and then it was his sacrifice to defeat Pan that made her believe he really had changed, so that she was willing to marry him once he was free of Zelena. Her learning all those things about him, then seeing the kinds of things he gleefully did while she was Lacey, should have made someone as good as Belle supposedly is very uncomfortable. He showed a very different side of himself to Lacey, proving that he really hadn't changed at all and didn't really want to change. It was very strange that those experiences didn't seem to affect Belle at all once she had her memories restored.

[mjgchick]

I think Emma knows who Milah is. When he mentioned Neal took up art from his mom, Emma gave him a look like "Oh shit, that's the woman he once loved." This show just refuses to let these people take a minute and talk. They could say it on commentary how they love the quite moments but I don't believe them because even when they celebrate something another problem comes in to play. When a show like Game Of Thrones, Outlander and even freaking Homeland can have quite moments that advances a storyline then a show about fairytales can also.

[Shanna Marie]

I think Emma knows who Milah is. When he mentioned Neal took up art from his mom, Emma gave him a look like "Oh shit, that's the woman he once loved."

Since everything #happensoffscreen, it's so hard to tell when the characters apparently didn't do the math -- like Emma not having second thoughts about Graham once she learned that ripping out hearts, controlling them, and crushing them was actually a thing and realizing that maybe Henry was right, and that would explain how a healthy young man would suddenly drop dead of a heart attack -- and when we're supposed to assume that they have done the math and figured something out. Even if they have figured things out, this seems to be the least curious bunch of people ever because they never ask questions about this sort of thing -- or if they do, #ItHappenedOffscreen.

 

So Belle, once she learns from Hook about what happened to Rumple's wife, never asks Rumple for his side of the story and for more details. Emma never delves into how well Hook and Bae/Neal knew each other, aside from her one question about how much time they spent together during that little wake they had on the Jolly Roger after Neal's first presumed death. Even when Hook was obviously torn up about the for-real death, she never asked him any questions about that relationship, not even to offer him comfort. Emma sees the drawing and hears his remark, but never bothers to confirm that Bae's mother was the woman Rumple murdered, never asks for details about what, exactly, all that was about. Snow and David have never asked Emma for details about her childhood. Emma's never asked them for any information about their lives -- we don't even know for sure if Emma knows that David isn't really a prince except by marriage and that he was impersonating his twin brother. Do we know if Emma's ever been given the whole story about why Regina really hates Snow and why she cast the curse? Hook's dropped a couple of lines about a difficult childhood, and Emma's never asked for details.

 

There's all this stuff that we as viewers are curious about, and we have more info than most of the characters do, but they don't seem at all curious about each other.

[babyPhat279]

I think it's safe to assume Emma's read Henry's book by now, she knows all about David and James and the switcheroo. Also when Hook confessed in the caves he mentioned Milah by name so she knows about that as well. But yeah, I have no idea if she put two and two together regarding Graham's death.

[Serena]

During the latest Matt Mitovich dustup, didn't we get word from Adam that Emma didn't know? Like, wasn't that the thing that started it all, Adam saying Emma didn't know, and fans bringing up the receipts from Matt saying they wrote a scene when she found out for 122?

 

BTW, after seeing how TVLine deal with the Good Wife TPTB (they went hard after them), I'm even more confused about what happened with Matt saying it was his mistake. Did he genuinely make one? Did he lie to cover Adam's ass? It was weird all around.

[Rumsy4]

Some people posted the actual video of Matt saying that. But neither Matt nor Adam responded to any of those tweets. They had already denied the whole thing. I feel that Adam threw Matt under the bus on that one. But neither of them expected real proof I bet. It's quite possible Matt genuinely didn't remember.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Serena]

Matt responded to fans tweeting him the video by saying he was gonna check his notes. When he did, he came back saying his notes didn't say anything about a Regina/Emma scene, and that it was his mistake. YMMV on whether you believe him.

[Rumsy4]

Matt responded to fans tweeting him the video by saying he was gonna check his notes. When he did, he came back saying his notes didn't say anything about a Regina/Emma scene, and that it was his mistake. YMMV on whether you believe him.

 

Oh wow! It's... bizzare. 

[Curio]

I have no idea if [Emma] put two and two together regarding Graham's death.

 

According to Entertainment Weekly, as of October 31, 2014, the definitive answer is: Emma doesn't know Regina killed Graham.

 

Will Emma ever confront Regina (Lana Parrilla) for killing Graham (Jamie Dornan)?

Horowitz: First of all, she doesn’t know that Regina killed Graham. If you look back at season one, before Emma believed, when she talks to Henry (Jared Gilmore) about the aftermath of Graham’s death, she says what the autopsy was, which was an aneurysm. She still believes that.

Kitsis: She believed it at the time, and then things have happened.

Horowitz: She actually doesn’t know that Regina was behind it. That’s never been something that has come up. If it did, I’m sure she would take issue with it.

It actually kind of seems like Adam and Eddy disagree on this. Eddy starts to ambiguously say "and then things have happened," but Adam chimes in and clears it up.

[Camera One]

Realistically, Emma finding out should definitely affect her relationship with Regina, but then again, her relationship with Regina is already unbelievable considering all the things she *does* know and yet "all she wants is to be [Regina's] friend" (episode Breaking Glass).  

 

I really don't see how they can organically dredge up Graham's death at this point.  It's not something that can help Regina and Emma's friendship to deepen in any way or form, and I'm not sure there's anything Regina can do to make up for it, especially since they haven't shown her remorseful about killing any redshirts thus far.  

 

I suppose they could have Dark Emma kill someone, and then she finds out in 5B that Regina killed Graham so now she will be  understanding how darkness can override your entire being or whatever.  I sure hope not, though.  The whole Graham thing also has ramifications for Henry.  Henry already believed that Regina killed him. So what does he think now?  It's really too messy from A&E's perspective, so they opted to sweep it under the rug.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Camera One

[Curio]

I really don't see how they can organically dredge up Graham's death at this point. It's not something that can help Regina and Emma's friendship to deepen in any way or form, and I'm not sure there's anything Regina can do to make up for it, especially since they haven't shown her remorseful about killing any redshirts thus far. 

 

I call bullshit on this. (Not to you, Camera One, but to the show.) If the show wasn't afraid to un-organically bring up Snow and Charming's egg baby plot that was a complete retcon and have Emma get pissed at them, then surely they can bring up Graham's death that isn't a retcon and have Emma get pissed at Regina. Adam & Eddy claim they love drama, and this is actual drama right here. But if it makes Regina look bad, then they can't do it.

 

(I know, I know. Dead horse. Moving on.)

[YaddaYadda]

So someone who gets their heart crushed is akin of an aneurysm when they're being cut open to see what the cause of death is? 

 

I will be the first one to say I will die of shock, as in drop dead instantly, if Graham's death is ever brought up again.  I don't even know why they wanted to have him in season 3 finale to be honest because a lot of people are still sore from what happened to him and the way he died. Emma still wears his shoe lace and they showed his damned shoes in 4x13 because why exactly? To remind us nothing is ever going to happen there even though the man was raped for more than 30 years and then died a horrible death?

 

And then they go on about how Regina should have a happy ending. Like hell she does!

 

Eff that noise.

[Serena]

I really don't see how they can organically dredge up Graham's death at this point.  It's not something that can help Regina and Emma's friendship to deepen in any way or form, and I'm not sure there's anything Regina can do to make up for it, especially since they haven't shown her remorseful about killing any redshirts thus far.  

And yet, they "organically" (YMMV) brought up how Graham's death affected Emma in 403. Two episodes before she begged his murderer to be BFF. (yes, I know, letitgo.mp3)

[Camera One]

I think the shoelace is just something Jennifer Morrison does so it's technically not canon.  The Graham mentions... I suspect it's A&E giving shoutouts to the Graham fancrowd, thinking something small like that will satiate them.   

[Serena]

It appears on screen, so I don't see how it's not canon. I mean, A&E even brought it up in interviews. If they didn't want Jen to do it, they'd tell her to take it off, I'd hope.

[OnceUponAJen]

Deleted.

Edited September 1, 2015 by OnceUponAJen

[Rumsy4]

It appears on screen, so I don't see how it's not canon. I mean, A&E even brought it up in interviews. If they didn't want Jen to do it, they'd tell her to take it off, I'd hope.

I agree. Jen may have come up with the idea, but TPTB have gone along with it. Emma even wore it in NY in the missing year. Honestly, the shoe lace annoys me at this point. Emma needs to let it go...

[Shanna Marie]

I think it's safe to assume Emma's read Henry's book by now, she knows all about David and James and the switcheroo.

Was that actually in the book, though? It's hard to tell what was in the book and what wasn't. I thought "James" didn't come into the story in the book until Bandit Snow robbed his carriage. As I recall, Henry didn't know who Mr. Gold was, and if Rumple had been in the book, he'd have recognized him. The David/James switch was a Rumple story.

 

Also when Hook confessed in the caves he mentioned Milah by name so she knows about that as well.

He also showed her the tattoo with Milah's name on it when they first met, but would she have any reason to know that "Milah" was Neal's mother and Rumple's former wife?

 

Since they've flat-out said Emma hasn't figured out that Regina murdered Graham, it's really hard to judge what characters might have figured out for themselves.

 

Going back to what relationship Belle might have with the others, when you think about it, there's not much reason for Emma to be friends with her. Belle came out of the asylum right before the curse broke, which seems to have been barely an hour or two (at most) before Emma and Snow got sent through the portal, and I don't think Belle was out and about during that time. It wasn't long after they returned before Belle got her memory wiped and then became Lacey, and her memories weren't restored until right before they left for Neverland. Which could explain why no one was rushing to comfort her at Rumple's death -- she was basically a stranger to them, and they were basically strangers to her. Snow seems to have spent some time with her during the Missing Year, but Emma didn't spend any time at all with Belle until the return to Storybrooke, when she was part of the team working to take down Zelena, and they don't seem to have socialized. The way Belle and Emma interacted in the "normal life" montage at the beginning of 4B suggests that they might have started becoming friends then. Sadly, Belle's only non-Rumple, non-Will interaction with anyone else seems to be whatever offscreen relationship she has with Snow that leads to her being chief babysitter and her library time with Hook.

[Panopticon]

I'd have a really hard time accepting that Emma doesn't know about the David/James thing after the events of White Out. Elsa didn't say "David, how do you know Anna?" as soon as Emma was out of imminent danger? Emma didn't ask that herself? Hook didn't question the dynamics between David and Bo Peep in Emma's presence or mention them to Emma?

 

That said, more than almost anything I would like confirmation in the form of a conversation between David and Emma about how odd it is to suddenly find oneself considered to be royalty after a lifetime of feeling like the lowest of the low.

 

I know, I know. Conversations are boring and must take place #offscreen.

[YaddaYadda]

I think Emma knows though. In the time travel adventure, Emma called David "Prince Charming/James" when she was talking to Rumple because that's the name Rumple knew him by and technically, no one knew the guy had died.

 

Plus there's that sheep baby mobile which opens up a whole line of questioning, like why sheep? The baby is too young to count them if he can't sleep, he'll just scream his little lungs out.

[Shanna Marie]

I think Emma knows though. In the time travel adventure, Emma called David "Prince Charming/James" when she was talking to Rumple because that's the name Rumple knew him by and technically, no one knew the guy had died.

And I took that as possibly meaning that she didn't know, that she was just going by what was in the book, since if she knew the real story, she'd know that Rumple knew "James" was really David at the time he was supposed to meet Snow. If you remove Rumple from the story, it makes no sense because otherwise why would David have had a twin who became a prince, and why would David have then been forced to impersonate him? So if she knew about the David/James thing, she'd have known that a sure way to convince Rumple of who she was and what was going on would be for her to know that "Prince James" was at that time really his twin brother David.

 

It is sad that we don't know for sure that the main characters don't know the major facts about their closest family members. I think even the writers aren't entirely sure, or they forget that while they've shown us stuff, the characters don't necessarily have a reason to know these things because they're never allowed to talk to each other or ask each other questions.