Happily Ever After: Relationships Are Hard

[Camera One]

It doesn't bother me when certain couples will inevitably get back together again; what destroys them is when it's a constant yo-yo like Rumbelle and Outlaw Queen has been.  I don't think a death and/or permanent breakup is necessarily the only way to go, especially when we've seen that killing off a character pretty much results in them being ignored with little to no fallout explored (eg. Graham, Marion, Neal).  CS has been handled reasonably well as a new budding romance, but Outlaw Queen was not given that type of writing.  We never got to see Robin adjusting to being romantically attracted to the Evil Queen.  It jumped right to bold and audacious.  Meanwhile, Snowing is an established couple and could have a multitude of different types of relationship storylines.  Instead, they've been reduced to props to the extent that if you read dialogue from 3B, 4A and particularly 4B, it is literally impossible to figure out if a line was uttered by Snow or Charming.  They're that interchangeable now.  

 

Like it or not, CS and Snowing are endgame, and with the addition of Robin to the main cast, I'm thinking Outlaw Queen is heading in that direction as well.  Rumbelle really will depend on Robert C and whether he sticks with the show.  I don't think having endgame couples must inevitably lead to bad or boring storylines.  Rumbelle for example could have worked well if Belle and Rumple had truly broken up in early Season 2, and got a slow-build with a more coherent redemption arc for Rumple and developing Belle as a character on her own.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

 

I don't think a death and/or permanent breakup is necessarily the only way to go, especially when we've seen that killing off a character pretty much results in them being ignored with little to no fallout explored (eg. Graham, Marion, Neal).

Rumpbelle had both a death and a major break-up and still remains. It's a creepy, classic Stockholm relationship that gets a happy ending because reasons. Regina murdered Robin's wife and he still think she's bold and audacious. Charming's heart had to be sacrificed, yet thanks to contrived True Love magic he's still kicking with Snow. I don't need to mention how many times Hook almost died. There is no peril or point of danger if everyone gets out fine. The couples don't have to fight for each other because they're already guaranteed to stay together forever. Outlaw Queen isn't even meta about this - they already know they're destined.

[YaddaYadda]

The thing with Rumbelle is that Belle went from being locked up by Regina to back with Rumple within like 5 seconds flat.  She lives such an isolated life, she might as well be back in the Dark One's castle in the Enchanted Forest.

 

One thing I find funny is that none of these relationships have been all that long, except for maybe Snowing's which was about something like 3-4 years long before the curse hit.  CS is a few months long (even though Hook is probably the character who has been in the longest relationship on the show if we were to gives a guesstimate of that), OQ is being done at lightning speed which again, I don't understand.  With CS and even with Rumbelle, for all their problems and issues and ughness, you can kind of see where he might've fallen in love with her and she with him.  OQ, not so much.  The writers took the lazy route out on that one.  OQ are pixie dust ordained and since pixie dust is always right, then love it is.

Edited July 26, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[KAOS Agent]

I think it was a mistake to create "True Love" couples for all of the mains so early in the show. Captain Swan is the only relationship that isn't some magically confirmed coupling. Part of the problem with the True Love thing is that it removes some of the emotional drama from things. Emma & Hook both experience doubts about the other's feelings for them. That's realistic and adds emotional depth. It lets them get drama from Emma saying "I love you" because that wasn't necessarily a given. It gives the audience something to root for with regards to those crazy kids. Those two seem to be the only ones who are fighting for their relationship in a more real world manner.

 

Robin/Regina were in love after about five minutes and there's no concern about the other's feelings because they're pixie dust confirmed soul mates. Good for them I guess, but it ignores all of the issues that should have come from pairing Robin Hood with an evil and terrible Queen. It got about a million times worse when Robin didn't even care that Regina had murdered his wife and proceeded to have an affair with her while Marian was frozen. Ick. Who wants to root for that? If I was a huge fan of Regina, I would be seriously upset that she's magically destined to be with that jackass. On a completely shallow note, I don't find Robin attractive at all, so the jackassery is made worse for me (although if they want to show him brooding in the shower some more, I wouldn't object). Sadly, I have no worries about Robin dying, so any danger Robin may find himself in is not at all dramatic for me. I expect an Outlaw Queen wedding this season and can't bring myself to care about it one way or the other. On a positive note, maybe they would end up going the route of Snowing and get off of my TV, 

[Joanh23]

Yeah of all the true love couples on the show I think Rumbelle is the only one that might end the show broken up (either through death or Belle finally kicking Rumples ass to touch).  If either CaptainSwan or Snowing did not end up "living happily ever after" at the series finale I would be very shocked.    And S4 managed to kill whatever investment I had in Outlaw Queen but again I have no doubts that they will be together at the end of the show.

[YaddaYadda]

Those two [Emma and Hook] seem to be the only ones who are fighting for their relationship in a more real world manner.

 

And it's not like it's about to get any easier for them either.  I will root for them any day of the week to get there and just be happy.  

[Shanna Marie]

Captain Swan is the only relationship that isn't some magically confirmed coupling. Part of the problem with the True Love thing is that it removes some of the emotional drama from things.

That actually does lend a little suspense to the situation. We may have a pretty good feeling that they're likely to end up together because the network seems to see that relationship as a goldmine when it comes to promotion, but there really is no guaranteed outcome within the world of the show. We don't know for sure that they're destined to be together, they haven't been magically declared soulmates or true loves. They're just two people who found each other and got over their own issues enough to fall in love, and they have the same chance as anyone else of making it work.

 

The Robin and Regina relationship seems like something you see in a particular kind of 'shipper fanfic, where every story a particular writer writes is a different variation on the moment they get together. In each one, it's rushed because it all has to happen in a single story, where their eyes meet, they realize their feelings, and they fall in bed. The problem here is that they only get one shot, and they've already done the whole thing. They don't have the luxury of writing dozens of different ways the same thing might happen. Maybe this is a manifestation of Regina's Mary Sue nature, and that explains why they actually have shortchanged her in the writing. They just give her all the things instead of having her work for them, and that means insta-love with a little manufactured angst that's instantly overcome in her favor, and all with a guaranteed outcome because they were designated soulmates from the start.

 

(I had a thought that a fun game thread for the Fun and Games section might be ways that OQ could be given some of the key relationship moments of other couples on the show, or maybe even other screen couples, while still fitting the way this show tends to handle Regina, which means she can't ever be wrong or to blame, and it would have to incorporate what's already been written, like the fact that they're already designated soulmates. Like, how could they be given a time travel adventure story?)

[Dianthus]

It's funny this should come up, 'cuz I was literally just thinking about the hand-bandaging scene with CS vs. OQ. With CS it felt so personal, so intimate, it was almost like you could see the sparks fly. With OQ, it felt like AU Robin was just being nice. There wasn't that same sense of attraction or regard for the other person. 

In my experience, the harder you have to work for something the more you appreciate it. I get that with CS. Not so much (or at all, really) with OQ, and it really suffers from the lack.

[KAOS Agent]

I know a lot of people really want Captain Swan to have the True Love Kiss thing and be confirmed (and within the context of the the show and its endless need for the magical True Love as the be all end all, I'd like them to have it too). However, I'm actually much happier with the two of them just being truly, deeply in love and happy with each other having struggled to build and maintain their relationship without any magical stuff involved. They are better as a normal couple who continue to work to keep their relationship solid all on its own. It's so much better than whatever the hell the writers are doing with Outlaw Queen.

[RadioGirl27]

We may have a pretty good feeling that they're likely to end up together because the network seems to see that relationship as a goldmine when it comes to promotion, but there really is no guaranteed outcome within the world of the show. We don't know for sure that they're destined to be together, they haven't been magically declared soulmates or true loves. They're just two people who found each other and got over their own issues enough to fall in love, and they have the same chance as anyone else of making it work.

This is one of the reasons why I like CS so much, because it feels like a real relationship, even if he is Captain Hook and she is the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming. They have doubts and they move in a relatively normal pace. And I like the idea that, for both of them, being together is their choice and not something detetmined by outside forces (at least for now).

And that's why I said in my previous post that they were the other couple, with Rumbelle, that I can see A&E breaking, because they are areal life pairing and not a fairytale one. I don't really think they will break them, they have put too much thought there and too much care to break them, and they are too popular. But I'm also sure that their happy ending will be the last one.

[YaddaYadda]

I know a lot of people really want Captain Swan to have the True Love Kiss thing and be confirmed (and within the context of the the show and its endless need for the magical True Love as the be all end all, I'd like them to have it too)

 

Yeah, I don't get the whole let's confirm them.  It seems pretty confirmed and straight forward to me as far as Captain Swan go.  They've already had 4 separate meetings, their first meeting in the Enchanted Forest, then when she didn't remember him and trusted him anyway and took the memory potion.  Then there was the whole past Hook thing where forget about the other women who were there and lastly the season finale and the AU where he had no clue who she was but trusted her, believed her and died.

 

As far as meant to be, I don't think it really gets better than this with Once.  Obviously, yeah, things can be written better, but I'm perfectly happy with this where they keep finding each other and meeting in these different realities where the attraction and the recognition is still there.

[Camera One]

The fact that A&E haven't jumped to the finish line and have paced themselves with CS is an indication of how fortunate CS has been in terms of writing.  As a thought experiment, try writing CS the way Emma/parents has been treated and the difference is astounding.  No, it's not perfect (far from it with the 4A conclusion in particular), but for the standards of this show, A&E are handling CS with loving care.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

I don't think having endgame couples must inevitably lead to bad or boring storylines.

 

The major problem is the reliance on angst as the prime driver in just about every relationship. It's an endless cycle of reunion-separation-reunion, the staring at each other with Big Woobie Eyes while Mark Isham's composition swells dramatically and CGI smoke rolls over the horizon.

 

Snowing is Patient Zero for this trope, and Rumbelle's work in the field is unparalleled for the sheer number of times it's happened, but CS and OQ are getting competitive. 

 

But it hits the second and third strings as well. Look at Philip and Aurora. They start with reunion (the TLK), then separation (the Wraith), the reunion (offscreen), then separation (being turned into Flying Monkies), then reunion (offscreen).

 

It also hits non-romantic couplings. As much as SQers like to pretend that Henry Has Two Mommies, Henry has spent the entire series, right from the pilot, ping-ponging himself between Emma and Regina without rhyme or reason. Emma has spent the last three seasons swinging between comfort and discomfort with Snowing. And how many times has Regina alternated between hating Cora and wanting only her tender motherly love?

 

Most of the time, your supposedly True or Fated or True-ish Love could a slightly droopy ficus tree standing in the corner of the screen for all the actual interaction we get to see. 

 

It's great if you're a shipper, because you can always headcanon depth and compatibility, but if you're outside that ship....yeah, it's just two boring characters having the same basic dialog over and over again. "Nobody can ever love me"/"I'm not going anywhere...unless it's that point in the season where I dump yo sorry ass or get amnesia, see you in the finale!" "You're a hero (or bold and audacious.)" "I don't care about the past." It's all become rote.

In short: angst is great as seasoning, but not as the whole meal. And certainly not five seasons of meals.

[KAOS Agent]

A point of comparison between the writing for Captain Swan and Outlaw Queen is how they handled being separated. Obviously, Emma was cursed and she and Hook weren't in a relationship at the time, but look at Hook's actions vs. Robin's. Hook was so devastated about losing Emma that even knowing he'd never see her again, he was turning down free sex. Robin, on the other hand, spent like a week? a couple days? thinking about Regina and then immediately jumped into a sexual relationship with Marian. Now, I don't blame Robin for going back to his wife, but there's a whole level of gross about how fast he turned around from his "soul mate" to be back into sex with Marian.

 

Of course, Hook has protection in that he's an actual character where Robin is a cardboard cut out. We get to see both Emma & Hook's perspectives on their relationship while we get little about Robin other than that he's really, really fickle. Maybe Season 5 will be better for him now that he's a regular, but saddling him with the Zelena baby story isn't going to help. I can't figure out why they half-assed Outlaw Queen so much. Do you suppose it's really because Lana wanted a love interest, so they just gave her one and didn't really put any planning into it? Is it because Regina gets away with everything, so they figured no one would care that she had an affair with a married man and would just cheer for those two to get together? I'd really, really love to know the writers' thoughts on this couple because I just don't get it.

 

 

It's great if you're a shipper, because you can always headcanon depth and compatibility, but if you're outside that ship....yeah, it's just two boring characters having the same basic dialog over and over again. "Nobody can ever love me"/"I'm not going anywhere...unless it's that point in the season where I dump yo sorry ass or get amnesia, see you in the finale!"

 

That's very true for the romantic pairings. I find that the Hook/Emma interactions where they're not doing the romantic stuff, but rather having him call her out or be her sounding board helps with their relationship. And I get that if you hate Captain Swan it's a problem, but since Hook is the only character outside of the Snowing circle, he's also the only one who really works to act as Emma's friend too in that he's a neutral party. So he can drag her down to the docks and talk intelligently with her about how she needs to think about her relationship with her parents and we see onscreen that the relationship isn't only kissing and/or endless commentary about True Love or whatever nonsense is associated with a particular couple. You don't get that with any other relationship on the show - platonic or romantic.

[Dianthus]

Thinking about CS vs. OQ now has me thinking more specifically about Emma vs. Regina. Emma grew up without either of her parents, and A&E have referred to her as broken or damaged (as is Hook). Regina grew up with "mum of the year" Cora, who did a ton of damage to her daughter, due to her overweening ambition. Still, they don't seem to be doing much with it, even tho' they're mad for Regina. Girlfriend's got some legit issues, but all we see is her persecution complex. It doesn't even come across like she's jealous of Emma having parents who love her, despite the forced estrangement.

As for Hook vs. Robin, where do you even start? It's like Hook maxed out all of his character rolls, and Robin doesn't even know there's a game to be played. Must be those loaded dice.

[Shanna Marie]

I think there's a big difference between plot developments that create relationship angst and relationship angst that exists only to add drama to the relationship.

 

For instance, the whole Marian/Zelena thing existed only to add angst to Robin and Regina's relationship. Yeah, it led to the Operation Dumbass plot, but if there had been no relationship, there would have been very little impact on the plot from these events. It seems like they did all that just because that relationship had to have some drama inserted into it or else there really wouldn't be much there.

 

I think that while the Dark Swan stuff is certain to add angst to Emma and Hook's relationship, it's a plot element that would be dramatic and that would still have an impact even if Emma weren't in a romantic relationship, so I don't feel like it was done just because their relationship needed a drama injection. It's also going to affect her relationship with her parents and with Henry and should end up affecting her self image.

 

Even in real life, major events will have an impact on a relationship if a person is in a relationship. Losing a job, getting sick, or having a family issue is going to affect your romantic relationship, so in fiction it makes sense to explore how sacrificing yourself for the town affects your relationship. That doesn't necessarily make it relationship angst. If you're really dealing with the characters, all plot developments should cause some relationship angst because if it affects the characters, it should have an impact on their relationships -- not necessarily in the "we'll never see each other again!" sense, but just in adding tension, affecting the amount of time they can spend together, adjusting their priorities, etc.

[YaddaYadda]

For instance, the whole Marian/Zelena thing existed only to add angst to Robin and Regina's relationship.

 

Isn't that the problem with OQ after all?  They gave Regina a soul mate who she recognized because of his tattoo and that's the reason she decided that she would give him a chance in the first place because that's what the pixie dust said.  So since they are soulmates and designed as such, it removed all the angst out of the relationship, so they have to create some for Regina and Robin.  And it's not that he has some kind of a crisis of conscience because this woman did some very bad things, but they bring his wife back from the dead and then he leaves town with said wife who really isn't his wife but Regina's crazy sister.  Bonus points because he knocks up crazy sister.

 

And even during Operation Mongoose, Regina is suddenly in love with Robin after having spent a couple of minutes with him, which fine...if I try hard enough, I can get it, but he was perfectly content with being with Zelena, marrying Zelena and I get that they kept having him throw looks towards the door here and there during the wedding, but Robin doesn't fight for anything and his AU persona is the same as his real persona where he's like oh well, that's the hand I'm dealt so I'll just accept it.  

 

It's like I wonder if he went looking for Marian after he found out she had "died" or if he just accept the report that she had died.  When Robin was introduced, he was risking everything to save his wife and his unborn child.  And this version is such a departure from the original one.

 

David and Hook (even when he's being misguided and stupid), they fight and they keep on fighting.  We have seen David fight plenty for Snow pre-curse especially and Hook has fought for Emma. 

[Faemonic]

The thing with Rumbelle is that Belle went from being locked up by Regina to back with Rumple within like 5 seconds flat.  She lives such an isolated life, she might as well be back in the Dark One's castle in the Enchanted Forest.

 

One thing I find funny is that none of these relationships have been all that long, except for maybe Snowing's which was about something like 3-4 years long before the curse hit.  CS is a few months long (even though Hook is probably the character who has been in the longest relationship on the show if we were to gives a guesstimate of that), OQ is being done at lightning speed which again, I don't understand.  With CS and even with Rumbelle, for all their problems and issues and ughness, you can kind of see where he might've fallen in love with her and she with him.  OQ, not so much.  The writers took the lazy route out on that one.  OQ are pixie dust ordained and since pixie dust is always right, then love it is.

Snowing was definitely endgame, and they had something like pixie dust in the green ring. The first season was just so much better paced than the rest of the series. Rumbelle at least hinted that time had passed at the castle, and Belle was mouthy all the way (ohh but I only found out much later how Rumple hates that), and at least there were a couple of lines where Regina acknowledges that it's a bad message to send that a maid kisses somebody who locked her up.

 

It's in season two where I consider Rumbelle too rushed. Belle was awesome, telling off Moe and Rumple both...I could even sort of kind of let it slide that she asked Rumple out for burgers right after. But on the actual date, Rumple jokes about condiments being magic, and as he was established to be addicted to magic, I was going, "Don't even joke." But Belle was nodding and smiling. What killed the ship for me though was Belle forgiving Rumple offscreen for killing his wife. And I personally hated Milah. S2 Belle made Milah sympathetic to me by Belle being so bafflingly coldhearted. But it happened offscreen, so not only was it rushed in time but rushed in events, like, I need those events to believe their relationship.

 

I know a lot of people really want Captain Swan to have the True Love Kiss thing and be confirmed (and within the context of the the show and its endless need for the magical True Love as the be all end all, I'd like them to have it too). However, I'm actually much happier with the two of them just being truly, deeply in love and happy with each other having struggled to build and maintain their relationship without any magical stuff involved.

I agree. I guess I also just pull out the TLK trope, not because I even really want it for Captain Swan, but because everybody else in this show gets something like it.

 

And even though I was off the Rumbelle ship early, I understand the shippers' ire about the Dark One curse-break not following through the way that they predicted. And Rumbelle already has TLK confirmation, but did nothing with it. OQ pixie dust confirmation...also nothing. I don't know, I believed in the external factors keeping Snowing apart more than whatever keeps Rumbelle and OQ together.

 

Girlfriend's got some legit issues, but all we see is her persecution complex. 

That. I need that silk-screened on a Hot Topic shirt with Mayor Mills on it.

 

As for Hook vs. Robin, where do you even start? It's like Hook maxed out all of his character rolls, and Robin doesn't even know there's a game to be played. Must be those loaded dice.

 

Also well put. Hook is a playing character whose player had a life that got in the way, so the DM just plays him with small scenes in the background and makes him go through fake deaths. But Robin is an NPC. Robin doesn't have a player. 

Edited July 27, 2015 by Faemonic

[mjgchick]

Would anyone love to see Robin and Killian have a friendship? I'm trying to picture it and I can't see it even though Sean and Colin are adorable in real life.

 

and like faemonic says, Robin doesn't really fight for what he wants. Killian would be annoyed with him and Robin Hood just seems dumb to me. lol

Edited July 27, 2015 by mjgchick

[Shanna Marie]

Would anyone love to see Robin and Killian have a friendship? I'm trying to picture it and I can't see it even though Sean and Colin are adorable in real life.

I can't imagine Hook having a lot of respect for Robin, based on Robin's actions (though the show doesn't seem to see Robin as that fickle). It's like with Hook and Rumple -- there's a huge "does not compute" for Hook in the way these other men treat their relationships. With Rumple, Hook doesn't get putting power or anything else ahead of the person he loves, and with Robin, I don't think he'd get flipping back and forth between women or getting involved with the woman who killed his first wife. I know the show doesn't like to acknowledge Regina's role in all that, but Hook was there when Regina was parading Marian around as a prisoner, and he was involved in her rescue from Regina's dungeon, before Zelena took her place. Given what Hook did about Milah's death, I'd think that Robin's attitude would utterly disgust him.

 

But since the show doesn't address that, I guess both guys have that outlaw rogue thing going on, so I could see them teaming up to carry out a mission. I can't imagine what they'd talk about socially, though.

[Camera One]

Taking this to the Robin thread.

[mjgchick]

 

But since the show doesn't address that, I guess both guys have that outlaw rogue thing going on, so I could see them teaming up to carry out a mission. I can't imagine what they'd talk about socially, though.

They might be able to talk about how it feels to be in love with two powerful women who are royals I guess. Also they both seem to love to drink.

 

Has their ever been a scene where Regina asks Henry how he feels about her dating Robin? Emma asked Henry about asking Hook out but have we ever seen that with Regina? Hell has Robin and Henry ever hung out?

Edited July 27, 2015 by mjgchick

[Camera One]

Has their ever been a scene where Regina asks Henry how he feels about her dating Robin?

 

Yes.  I think his response was "THE Robin Hood?!  Cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"  Paraphrasing there.. I think.

[KingOfHearts]

 

Yes.  I think his response was "THE Robin Hood?!  Cool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"  Paraphrasing there.. I think.

Pretty much. He sees Robin as more of a celebrity than an actual person.

[Faemonic]

Would anyone love to see Robin and Killian have a friendship? I'm trying to picture it and I can't see it even though Sean and Colin are adorable in real life.

 

and like faemonic says, Robin doesn't really fight for what he wants. Killian would be annoyed with him and Robin Hood just seems dumb to me. lol

Correction, YaddaYadda pointed out that Robin doesn't fight. I just agreed with Dianthus that Robin might not have the stats to fight. I mean, narratively. He's in no position and hasn't showed skills. But then again, I only started watching this show again after "Poor Unfortunate Souls", so...

 

I definitely wanted www.youtube.com/watch?v=yymcOurkfnI to be a real in-show thing, like The Real Househusbands of Storybrooke, especially since I remember the old TWoP forums had a lot of people describing Captain Jones as all swagger "but in truth probably more like the Robin Hood of the high seas". But then Robin Hood actually happened to the show. Or, should I say, This Show actually happened to Robin Hood. Sean is a peach. I really wanted to like Robin Hood. But I cannot fansquee under these conditions.

Edited July 27, 2015 by Faemonic

[Selina K]

Also well put. Hook is a playing character whose player had a life that got in the way, so the DM just plays him with small scenes in the background and makes him go through fake deaths. But Robin is an NPC. Robin doesn't have a player. 

 

 

As for Hook vs. Robin, where do you even start? It's like Hook maxed out all of his character rolls, and Robin doesn't even know there's a game to be played. Must be those loaded dice.

 

I love the idea that the writers are sitting around genning up characters with a few d20 or 3d6.  Oh, Robin, crit fail on charisma and intelligence - so sad!!  Good thing we have the perfect romantic pairing for you!  That might explain a lot of OQ, actually.  The writers are just rolling dice and looking up actions on DM tables the cobbling those together into a script.  Wait, they're having sex while his wife is in a frozen coma?  That's what the dice said!

[Curio]

The writers are just rolling dice and looking up actions on DM tables the cobbling those together into a script. Wait, they're having sex while his wife is in a frozen coma? That's what the dice said!

 

Dice rolling would really explain so much on this show. Even though Captain Swan has lucked out with a lot of their dice rolls, they still rolled some bad dice when it came to the cursed lips plot...

[Souris]

I guess the dice rolled under the sofa on the Hook's heart arc, which is why there was no payoff....

[Shanna Marie]

I guess the dice rolled under the sofa on the Hook's heart arc, which is why there was no payoff....

Or that was when a session had to be cut short before it was finished, and then they ended up missing a week that was planned, and then there were the holidays, and by the time they got back together, they'd forgotten where they were and had lost the notes, so they just did a quickie resolution of the outstanding issues (and then he gets his heart back and Rumple is banished) before starting a new adventure.

 

Hook is a playing character whose player had a life that got in the way, so the DM just plays him with small scenes in the background and makes him go through fake deaths.

And the DM and the other players like his player, so once or twice a year when he is able to show up, he gets great stuff to do and everyone else's interactions with him have a lot of spark to them.

 

I think a big difference in the way the relationships work out is that when Hook was introduced, he had a plot line and a goal that had absolutely nothing to do with Emma. You could almost remove Emma from the picture without changing his season 2 plot line at all -- some events would have to be adjusted, but his reason for being on the show, going to Storybrooke, and doing most of the things he did had nothing to do with Emma or his relationship with her. That only came after he'd been established as a character.

 

Aside from Robin 1.0's interaction with Rumple, Robin's introduction to this show was as Regina's pixie-dust ordained soulmate. He had no other purpose on the show but to admire Regina and be on the receiving end of her snark. If it weren't for his relationship with Regina, he would have had no plot line, no conflict, nothing going on. He has never really had an overarching goal of his own. Since Robin barely exists apart from his relationship with Regina, that makes the relationship weaker. He's a trophy for her, not a character.

[Faemonic]

I love the idea that the writers are sitting around genning up characters with a few d20 or 3d6.  

 

Wait, they're having sex while his wife is in a frozen coma?  That's what the dice said!

I saw one of those Helvetica Font memes of a natural 1 on a d20 and the caption went, "You try to push the Orc off the bridge. You caress his back instead. He is uncomfortable."

 

Either the OQ rolls were a series of those, or that plot was railroaded.

 

Or that was when a session had to be cut short before it was finished, and then they ended up missing a week that was planned, and then there were the holidays, and by the time they got back together, they'd forgotten where they were and had lost the notes, so they just did a quickie resolution of the outstanding issues (and then he gets his heart back and Rumple is banished) before starting a new adventure.

YES. I mean, that has happened so many times to my group...

Since Robin barely exists apart from his relationship with Regina, that makes the relationship weaker. He's a trophy for her, not a character.

Like the animal companion that nobody plays, so everybody forgets that the mage or ranger has this really cool living weapon. It's like a dire wolf that had basically spent a four-hour battle in the corner, tilting its head and giving the occasional whimper as everybody fights for their lives.

 

I think a big difference in the way the relationships work out is that when Hook was introduced, he had a plot line and a goal that had absolutely nothing to do with Emma.

 

Robin Hood had Marian, though, like his very own Milah except established in the Child Ballads. And a baby boy! Didn't Regina have that thing with adopting motherless little boys? Second Chances at Happiness! He was a-okay in the Wonderland spinoff! It could have worked.

 

Which means that while Hook was introduced with motivations outside of Emma, he could have similarly decayed.

[october]

So ET posted this brief snippet of their interview with the OUAT cast (video here*) where they discussed the uhh complicated relationships on the show. Basically Colin calls the Zelena-Robin-Regina situation 'warped' and Ginny replies 'I'm sorry, 'warped' is you were sleeping with your lover's what? Her son's grandfather's wife.'

 

The exchange was all in good fun and these sorts of relationship situations have become a hallmark of the show. But it got me thinking because this isn't the first time Ginny has mentioned finding Hook/Emma a bit weird because of their connection via Baelfire/Neal and Milah.

 

The more I think about this connection though, the less strange Captain Swan seems. The biggest reason for that is that Hook sees Emma as Emma, not as 'Neal's ex'. She's always been his peer. I can't help but think of how 'warped' it would've been if Hook had chosen not to pursue Emma because she'd dated Neal for a few months over a decade ago. If he'd done that he'd have been defining her based on the men she'd been with in the past, which is all kinds of sexist.

 

As unusual as the situation is it has little to no bearing on the present day or their current relationship. Sure much of this is due to the show having people be related or otherwise connected for shock value and then doing next to nothing with the fallout. But while JMO jokingly says 'Babe, it was 200 years ago. It's okay, I forgive you,' I think neither Hook nor Emma have any reason to feel ashamed or awkward about their situation. Neither of them hurt or betrayed anyone by getting together.

 

WickedOutlawQueen on the other hand... where do you even start with that? Zelena is only pregnant because she raped Robin Hood via magical deception (something the show doesn't properly acknowledge) to get back at Regina. Regina and Zelena took turns killing Maid Marian in different timelines. Robin slept with Regina while (who he thought was) Marian was in a coma that was slowly killing her. The weird is all in the present day and a direct result of the selfish and shitty actions of all three of these characters. Even if Zelena and Regina weren't related this would still be all kinds of fucked up.

 

While the writers are undoubtedly cackling over complicating their characters' family trees yet again, I can't help but wonder if they've missed the real reasons as to why the Regina-Robin-Zelena situation is so distasteful to so many.

 

* FYI the interviewer repeats more than once that Emma 'sacrificed herself so Regina could get her happy ending'. So just a heads up in case you've reached your limit of hearing people say that.

[Curio]

Colin calls the Zelena-Robin-Regina situation 'warped' and Ginny replies 'I'm sorry, 'warped' is you were sleeping with your lover's what? Her son's grandfather's wife.'

 

I know Ginny meant it in good fun, but it's so incredibly weird to me that this show promotes a long-term relationship where both partners appeared to be equals and respected each other as "warped." Also, Hook didn't know any of Emma's family tree when he fell for her. The initial attraction started at the beanstalk before he even knew Henry's name or that she dated Neal. Hook only knew her as Emma, the woman he could read like an open book because he could tell her past was very similar to his. Later on in the season, Hook is still flirting with Emma in the hospital bed without ever knowing Neal was Henry's father. So how can you fault a guy for falling in love with a woman and blame him for sleeping with her son's grandmother when: A) Milah existed 200 years before Emma was even born, and B) He had no recollection of the twisted family tree for the first few months of knowing Emma? Ironic might be a better word, but I wouldn't say "warped."

 

"Warped" is Robin Hood never once having a conversation with Regina about how she tortured his first wife. "Warped" is Belle never confronting Rumple about killing Milah in cold blood and dumping Will to get back with him after all the bad things he's done to her. "Warped" is Emma putting her life on hold for an entire season to beg for a friendship with a woman who secretly murdered Emma's good friend who did absolutely nothing wrong. "Warped" is Henry sending his mom wine and chocolates because she refuses to see him in person.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

But it got me thinking because this isn't the first time Ginny has mentioned finding Hook/Emma a bit weird because of their connection via Baelfire/Neal and Milah.

 

Ginny certainly seems to be hung up on that! But then she also called SQ sort of incestuous because Regina is Emma's step-grandmother (you can imagine the furore that caused!). I guess Ginny prefers relationships not to fall outside certain accepted norms. 

 

I do think it weird that A&E are so bent on making every character on the show connected or related to another character. That seems to go against the whole "choice" theme they sometimes push. For example, every impactful relationship Emma had outside of her fairy tale existence was with people from the EF (Lily, Ingrid, Neal, Monkeyboy). The whole "you should take crap from "family" and give them a clean slate for everything bad they ever did or do" shtick is what is warped, IMO!

 

Regina and Zelena took turns killing Maid Marian in different timelines.

 

That is totally messed up, right?! I still don't get why A&E thought making Robin such an insensitive jerk would be attractive? It is terrible that Robin was raped by Zelena, but I don't feel bad for him that he slept unknowingly with a woman (Zelena) who had tortured/killed his wife, because he had already chosen to do that with a different woman (Regina). 

 

FYI the interviewer repeats more than once that Emma 'sacrificed herself so Regina could get her happy ending'. So just a heads up in case you've reached your limit of hearing people say that.

 

Poor JMo gave it up as a bad job, and didn't bother contradicting the interviewer this time (especially with Lana there I suppose). 

hh

Edited July 30, 2015 by Rumsy4

[YaddaYadda]

Ginny also called Emma and Hook lovers, so hey, we can all put that debate to rest since the cast is assuming what I've been assuming.

 

Adam and Eddy must be fans of whatever daytime soaps are still on the air.  Women sleeping with men they think are their husbands, but they're really not and men being tied to beds and raped by women.  And the whole let's keep it all in the family!

 

I don't even know why the show decided to make Neal Henry's father because that has had so little impact on the show.  I don't know if they were planning on Emma and Neal being true love, but Neal being Henry's father means absolutely nothing especially since Rumple and Henry have no relationship.  And Milah might as well not have been Neal's mother at all.

 

Someone should remind Ginny that Leopold almost married Cora before he married Regina.  That is all kinds of icky.  At least Milah and Emma are not blood related.

Edited July 30, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[mjgchick]

I don't know if Neal and Emma were ever suppose to be true love but when ever I go back and watch episodes neither did Jennifer. lol

 

I don't even know why the show decided to make Neal Henry's father because that has had so little impact on the show.  I don't know if they were planning on Emma and Neal being true love, but Neal being Henry's father means absolutely nothing especially since Rumple and Henry have no relationship.  And Milah might as well not have been Neal's mother at all.

 

 

If Milah were to be the one to come back would Henry even care that she's his grandmother? Would he want her back with Killian? Rumple? or would he hate her because she'll be in the way of his mothers happiness? He didn't seem to give a fuck about Marian's feelings when it came to Robin but she isn't a relative to him like Milah is and well he's stuck on Stockholm syndrome when it comes to Regina. He does have a better relationship with Belle than his own grandfather though.

[Panopticon]

So ET posted this brief snippet of their interview with the OUAT cast (video here*) where they discussed the uhh complicated relationships on the show. Basically Colin calls the Zelena-Robin-Regina situation 'warped' and Ginny replies 'I'm sorry, 'warped' is you were sleeping with your lover's what? Her son's grandfather's wife.'

 

 

The thing that struck me as odd about Ginny's turn of phrase is that she went with "son's grandfather's wife" rather than "son's grandmother" (even with Colin there saying "his grandmother" to set up the follow up about being willing to do Henry's other grandmother as well).

 

If there's oddness and awkwardness with Hook going from Milah to Emma, to me it would be because Milah was Neal's mother, not because she was married to Rumple. Milah's not my favorite but she did make it abundantly clear to Rumple that things were over between them before she took off with Hook. It's not like she was carrying on a clandestine affair. If there was no legal severing of ties... well, it seems likely a peasant woman in the Enchanted Forest whose husband didn't want to let her go (eventually to the point of murdering her for leaving) didn't exactly have that option.

 

Never mind that Emma also has experience when it comes to having slept with someone who was married to someone else.

 

Hook having been in love with both Henry's mother and his grandmother? A little weird.

 

Hook having been in love with Henry's mother and Henry's grandfather's wife? Irrelevant.

 

 

* FYI the interviewer repeats more than once that Emma 'sacrificed herself so Regina could get her happy ending'. So just a heads up in case you've reached your limit of hearing people say that.

 

Thanks for the warning. ;)

[orza]

I know Ginny meant it in good fun, but it's so incredibly weird to me that this show promotes a long-term relationship where both partners appeared to be equals and respected each other as "warped."

The show is not promoting Hook and Emma's relationship as warped nor has it been portrayed so in canon. The cast was joking around. That's what they are supposed to do at these kind of group interviews.

 

The thing that struck me as odd about Ginny's turn of phrase is that she went with "son's grandfather's wife" rather than "son's grandmother" (even with Colin there saying "his grandmother" to set up the follow up about being willing to do Henry's other grandmother as well).

Because the convoluted relationships are a running joke and Ginny's phrase sounds more convoluted than "grandmother". She made a joke.

[Shanna Marie]

The reasons behind the taboo on hooking up with your friends' or family members' exes generally have to do with age, circumstances, and damaging relationships. You don't hook up with your friend's ex because you don't want to hurt your friendship, and it's likely that there would be some awkwardness because of hurt feelings all around (since if they're exes, there's probably a reason that they're exes). It's not because your friend has dibs from prior sexual contact. I don't think the taboo would apply at all if you met someone and learned that this person was the ex of someone you were friends with a decade earlier and had lost touch with. Hooking up with your wife's daughter-in-law, your stepson's ex, or your wife's grandson's baby mama is weird because that means you're with someone young enough to be your daughter, you're trolling family relationships for dates, and/or there's some betrayal of relationships if you're leaving someone for another person, particularly if you're leaving an older woman for one young enough to be your daughter. Plus massive awkwardness all around if all of these people are still in your life.

 

But because of fantasy elements that include large amounts of time passing without aging, none of those reasons really apply here. Thanks to Neverland and the curse, Hook and Emma are about the same age physically, and by the end, he was physically younger than Neal. Hook didn't meet Bae until Milah was already dead, so whatever their Neverland relationship ended up being, they don't seem to have ever lived as a family unit. Bae/Neal hadn't been around Hook for at least a decade when he met Emma. When Hook met Emma, Milah had been dead for at least a century, possibly closer to two centuries, and he'd had no contact with Bae for at least 28 years. Emma and Neal hadn't been in contact for more than a decade. I figure that at a decade with no contact, the statute of limitations on prior relationships has expired. Hook and Emma's meeting had nothing at all to do with any family connections -- he didn't meet her through his relationship with Bae/Neal or through his connection with Henry. He didn't even know there was a connection until he'd known Emma a while and was already falling for her. Neal was dead before Emma and Hook started a relationship. If you removed all the connections, I don't think it would change Emma and Hook's relationship at all. So they didn't meet because of family, the relationships that link them had been over for a long time before they met, with no overlap, and there's no actual age difference. That just leaves the idea that people are forever defined by past sexual relationships or that a past relationship forever puts dibs on someone, restricting their future choices. And that to me is way more warped.

 

On the other hand, Snow did live in a family unit with Regina and her father for quite some time. She thought of Regina as a mother figure. The fact that Emma is Snow's daughter is a pretty big factor in Emma and Regina's relationship. Their relationship would be very different if Emma weren't Snow's daughter. And that's not even getting into the fact that Regina had Emma's grandfather murdered.

[Camera One]

It's kinda funny. If Regina (and Rumple) had their way, most of the main characters and the majority of the supporting characters would be dead right now. But you can bet your bottom dollar those two will be the go-to for any help needed in Season 5.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

If Regina (and Rumple) had their way, most of the main characters and the majority of the supporting characters would be dead right now. But you can bet your bottom dollar those two will be the go-to for any help needed in Season 5.

And all the other characters will put themselves on the line to save the lives and/or happy ending for those two.

 

That's what drives me crazy about the forced "friendship" between Regina and Emma. Emma is putting her life on hold because she apparently believes it's more important that Regina get a happy ending than that she herself get one, that her boyfriend get one or that her parents get one, even though if Regina had her way, both she and her parents would have been dead. The happiness of someone who's tried to kill her is more important to Emma than the happiness of people who are willing to die for her. How warped is that?

[YaddaYadda]

How warped is that?

 

That version is warped if we think that she only did that to save Regina's life, but Emma sacrificed her happy ending and that of the people she loves so that they can live.  

[Shanna Marie]

I wasn't thinking about the Dark One sacrifice, just the day-to-day barely bothering with the people in her life who actually care for her while she gets caught up in Regina's quest for a happy ending, or dragging her feet on getting into a relationship with Hook in part out of guilt over messing up Regina's happy ending. When Regina's happy ending at one point involved Emma's death, it's weird that it's become such a priority for Emma. Regina should be at the end of the line, behind all her former victims, when it comes to passing out happy endings. Only when everyone else in town is all set and happy should anyone worry about whether Regina has everything she wants.

 

Maybe I'm just a bitch, and I'm obviously not a hero because if someone has tried to kill me, I'm probably not going to be too concerned about whether or not they're happy. I'm going to focus my attention on the people in my life who've never wanted me dead. Those are the people whose happiness would matter to me.

[Camera One]

You're a villain.

(Joking. I've always wanted to say that.)

Edited July 30, 2015 by Camera One

[RadioGirl27]

That version is warped if we think that she only did that to save Regina's life, but Emma sacrificed her happy ending and that of the people she loves so that they can live.  

Oh, but Emma put her life on hold for Regina during all season 4, since the premiere to the finale. Let's not forget "Heroes and Villains", when she went to comfort Regina instead of comforting Hook, who had been through something far worse than Regina.

Maybe I'm just a bitch, and I'm obviously not a hero because if someone has tried to kill me, I'm probably not going to be too concerned about whether or not they're happy

You and me both.

[Curio]

I wasn't thinking about the Dark One sacrifice, just the day-to-day barely bothering with the people in her life who actually care for her while she gets caught up in Regina's quest for a happy ending, or dragging her feet on getting into a relationship with Hook in part out of guilt over messing up Regina's happy ending.

 

It's amazing to me how much Season 4 has made me despise Regina's character and her "friendship" with Emma compared to Season 3. I began Season 4 a little bit annoyed by how the show focused too much on Regina's story, but I was able to just casually roll my eyes at that scene in the premiere where Hook immediately knew Emma was holding back because she was guilty about Regina. But if I went back and watched that scene now with the knowledge of what came after it (4.05, the shots scene, freaking all of 4B), I think I'd chuck something at the TV screen.

 

The show is not promoting Hook and Emma's relationship as warped nor has it been portrayed so in canon.

I was referencing Milah and Hook, actually.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Curio

[october]

Regina also complained that Emma didn't come running fast enough to jog Pinocchio's memory about the book and the Author. Because yeah Emma can totally drop what she's doing. It's not as if she has an important day job or had to keep an eye on the two Disney villains strolling through town... oh wait. :/

Edited July 30, 2015 by october

[YaddaYadda]

It's amazing to me how much Season 4 has made me despise Regina's character and her "friendship" with Emma compared to Season 3.

 

Season 3 was a lot more organic though.  There was an actual evolution in the relationship between Emma and Regina and it seemed to be a logical step to take. They are co-parenting Henry, they are in Neverland together trying to save him.  Emma leaves with him for NYC and Regina wants them to be happy together so she gives them good memories.  The relationship is not passive-aggressive or anything like that.  It's two women coming to terms with the fact that they are in each others' lives for good.  Back in season 3, I could see a solid enough friendship developing between Regina and Emma, but that development was sacrificed for the sake of plot.

 

I still hate episode 4x05 with a passion.  I hate the way Emma was treated, the things she was told.  That episode was shoe-horned and because Emma didn't forgive Lily for the lies she told, then she had to forgive Regina for every mean thing, passive-aggressive, bitchy word she's said to her because she considered her a friend?  

 

You know what would have been great?  If Regina had told Emma that there was nothing to forgive because she saved a life and back in the day, she did terrible things in order to get her happy ending.  She could have seen it as karma coming back to bite her in the ass, that Robin is standing right there in front of her but he is now unattainable because he has a wife and he made a choice.  Instead, we got the whole you never had my back, I'm going to throw a temper tantrum because you saved his wife's life and ruined mine in the process and goes looking for the Author to change her story.

 

The writers may love Regina, but they have done her no favors.  She reacts to situations that are out of her control with all the maturity of a 5 year old.  

[Camera One]

The show is its own worst enemy. I think Regina and Emma first developing a cordial demeanor and then growing into somewhat of a friendship could have worked. The dynamic between the two characters can be nice when they are working towards the same goal, like in Neverland. But the heavy-handedness of the writing and jumping five steps ahead instead of developing the relationship makes it forced and turns you off completely. It's no surprise after the same method was used to hammer home the Snow/Regina "friendship". More like taking an axe and knocking Snow down a few notches + a whole lot of kowtowing, and now they're so close. Yeah, right.

[RadioGirl27]

In my opinion, Regina has caused too much pain to Emma and her family to make that friendship believable, and the way it is written makes things worse. One of the things that bothers me the most is the fact that is the victim of the abuse the one seeking the friendship of her abuser while said abuser rejects her and belittles her. It's so unhealthy.

[pezgirl7]

I absolutely love this article about Emma and Hook's relationship and why they were written as true loves. It sums up perfectly what I love about their relationship and why I love Hook. Did I use the word love enough?

http://fangirlish.com/once-upon-a-time-true-love-the-captain-swan-way/