Rumsy4 November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 (edited) They seriously said that? But they didn't care about making it seem like Snowing could forget Emma existed? Looks like they did want to make that point. :-p Edited November 25, 2015 by Rumsy4 Link to comment
KAOS Agent November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 (edited) Regina/Henry share True Love. Emma and her parents are mostly casual acquaintances at this point. True Love means you can't move on from the loss of it, which is kind of horrifying in that apparently even Baby Emma wasn't loved by her parents since they moved on. The message gets pretty damn depressing if they're saying that anyone who loses a child (and we've got to assume most people share True Love with their child) will never be able to love again. Also, it makes it doubly sick that everyone was telling Emma to let Hook die without a fight. Nice. Condemn Emma to eternal loneliness and no romantic love. I don't think this show really considers what they're saying when they define True Love the way they do. Edited November 25, 2015 by KAOS Agent 5 Link to comment
Camera One November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 Also, it makes it doubly sick that everyone was telling Emma to let Hook die without a fight. Nice. Condemn Emma to eternal loneliness and no romantic love. Everyone was telling Regina it was not okay to ask Emma to save Robin when he was supposed to die. And everyone was right. Link to comment
Rumsy4 November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 True Love means you can't move on from the loss of it Unless you find your PixieDust declared Soul Mate. Link to comment
KAOS Agent November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 (edited) Everyone was telling Regina it was not okay to ask Emma to save Robin when he was supposed to die. And everyone was right. Sure, but they didn't tell her not to fight. It was up to Emma to help and her loved ones were more concerned about Emma than Regina/Robin, which makes sense. If Emma is Hook's True Love, then he's going to be a hell of a lot more concerned about her than someone else. His own ability to move on is at risk. Of course, Emma didn't say no, she saved Robin at her own expense. And later when Robin was at risk again, they all jumped in to help him. With Hook's death, they just told Emma to give up. My point is not to bring up a bunch of other situations where people don't care about the no moving on thing, my point is that by bringing it up in the narrative for one story, they make everyone look really terrible for their actions in others. Edited November 25, 2015 by KAOS Agent 1 Link to comment
Camera One November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 her loved ones were more concerned about Emma than Regina/Robin, which makes sense. It makes sense to me they would feel the same and would be more concerned about Emma's well-being, dreading the dire situation that Merlin has painted regarding what would happen to Emma. They weren't jumping up and down rooting for her to give up. They thought it was either / or. That Emma needed to let go, or she would be lost forever. Link to comment
KAOS Agent November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 If either/or is Emma is loveless and miserable for the rest of her not dark life vs saving her love and fighting the darkness, they are condemning Emma to a life of total misery. Rumpel is in a relationship with Belle. He's shown glimmers of decency and they keep saving him, so why would they tell her to just give up? Dark Emma is saveable, Dead Hook is not. Even if Emma didn't give into the Darkness due to grief and anger (which is what I believe would have happened), she'd most certainly end up completely incapable of opening up to love again. David is the guy who said, "True love isn’t easy, but it must be fought for. Because once you find it, it can never be replaced." Asking Emma to not fight is asking her to pick misery over hope. 5 Link to comment
Camera One November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 Emma would be devastated if Hook died but her life wouldn't end just because he was gone. She still had Henry. She's her own person and would still have reasons to live and even reasons to have some happy moments. Link to comment
KAOS Agent November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 Is her life over now? No, it is not. So why would she select a life of misery over a life where there's hope for her love? Link to comment
Camera One November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 They didn't know that though. They can only react to what they think might happen, based on their biggest fears and their unwillingness to lose Emma. Link to comment
KAOS Agent November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 (edited) Hmm...let's review some classic Snow White moves based on only hope. This one kills the whole town if wrong: Mary Margaret: The Wraith! Emma: What? Mary Margaret: We sent it through a portal. Why can't we do the same thing with the self-destruct? Emma: Because we don't know if it's gonna work. Mary Margaret: It could. David: Yeah. Or this little move that could result not only in her death, but that of her unborn child: Snow White: Regina, I need you to rip out my heart. Charming’s right. We have been of one heart since the day he woke me from the sleeping curse. If you split my heart in half, we can both survive. Regina: Snow, I know your love is strong, but this isn’t like plucking a flower. How do you know it will work? Snow White: Faith. Belief. I believe. I believe my heart is strong enough for both of us. This is why I am so extremely critical of Snow in particular with regards to her response to Emma's loss and need to do anything to fix it. Snow's willing to risk everyone and everything (including Emma) to save Regina. She's willing to risk her baby to save David. But the second Emma has an opportunity to do something to save her love, Snow's like nope, no hope. You'll be sad Emma and will have lost the love of your life, but eh, I'm sure you'll be fine. I mean, I know that I couldn't do it, but still there's no hope. Give it up. ETA: I want to be clear that I don't approve of Snow's actions previously, but the narrative affirmed that they were correct because she had hope. Having Snow, who has done ridiculous stuff in the past based only on hope, not offer any kind of hope in that scene is damaging to the relationship that Snow has with her daughter. Edited November 25, 2015 by KAOS Agent 8 Link to comment
Rumsy4 November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 Having Snow, who has done ridiculous stuff in the past based only on hope, not offer any kind of hope in that scene is damaging to the relationship that Snow has with her daughter. See--that's your problem right there. There is nothing to damage. :-p Snow again risked her life to save Regina from the Fury. And it worked. If it had not, Emma and Baby Snowflake would have both lost their parents trying to save Regina. But her hope paid off again. These examples about Snow risking her own and other people's lives on blind hope shows how skewed the narrative is for penalizing Emma for the same thing. It is still unclear why tethering turned Hook and Emma Dark. 1 Link to comment
Mari November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 (edited) I can understand why tethering Hook might've turned Emma dark. While her motive is understandable, what she did was override Hook's free will, which is a pretty dark act. Adding in the amount of magic she had to use to do it, combined with how in the Camelotbacks all of her magic is mixed--she can't use only her innate magic or her Dark One magic? I can see how it would override that barrier between Emma and the Nimue goop. But they lost me when it immediately made Hook dark. First of all, he was being tethered to Merlin's half, which should have been sparkly light magic. Plus, it's not like he started killing people. How does being tethered to a light magic artifact make him dark? Edited November 25, 2015 by Mari 1 Link to comment
Faemonic November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 How does being tethered to a light magic artifact nake him dark? Replying in the magic and enchantments thread. Link to comment
Shanna Marie November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 They said they didn't want to make it seem like Woegina could easily replace Henry and also why they didn't want to do anything with OQ in the missing year. And then the moment she got Henry back, she ditched him to go on dates with Robin and then kicked him out of the house because she wanted to mope about Robin. I guess she can't be happy without him, but when she has him, she can't be bothered with him unless he's helping her on one of her pet projects. That brings me back to what I was talking about earlier about the way the various homes might look. I can't imagine what Henry and Regina would do just being at home under normal circumstances. What would they talk about? What would they do together? Link to comment
Faemonic November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 I can't imagine what Henry and Regina would do just being at home under normal circumstances. What would they talk about? What would they do together? Hrmm...Henry's not much of a character, so I don't actually know what he would discuss or do with either of his parents. Book club lead by paternal grandmother. The latest Kingdom Hearts. Why he shouldn't do drugs. Why he shouldn't be dating. Why he can't keep Storybrooke's only wolf as a pet, even if it followed him home with sad eyes. Why he can't keep a komodo dragon as a pet, even if it followed him home like how did it even do that this is Maine in Canada not komodo. Why he's only supposed to be bird-watching and not taking home fallen nests with whole eggs in it and the parent birds both perched on his shoulders. Articles for the school newsletter. Scandals over incedniary blog posts such as a scathing review of his middle school production of Into the Woods, and why he's not allowed to blog or do any social media anymore. Boy scouts. Hockey team. Mowing neighbor's lawns over the summer. Getting together his age-peers on alternating weekends to play Dungeons and Dragons with the participants' full permission to let Henry turn their adventure into a comic book. Why, yes, Pirate, Henry has always had a talent for drawing, umm why are you crying? Birdwatching. Fencing. Dressage, show jumping, jousting, heart control, and other equestrian activities. Pottery and kiln in the garage. Failed kitchen experiments, which is why Henry doesn't even trust himself to scramble eggs or put the cinnamon in his own cocoa--because he'll find a way to make it taste awful. If you think soccer moms or stage moms are bad--think of Henry running for president of middle school student council! Link to comment
Shanna Marie November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 Henry's not much of a character, so I don't actually know what he would discuss or do with either of his parents. Well, in New York with Emma, we had the cozy breakfast scene that Hook interrupted but that gave a glimpse of "normal" life that I could imagine would be more or less the same even when Henry had his memories. And then we saw Emma joining Henry on the sofa to play video games after her date, again, something I could imagine even with "real" Henry. I can't imagine either of those scenes with Regina. When we saw Henry at home with Regina in season one, it was like they lived entirely separate lives. Henry was in his room. We didn't really see him "living" in the rest of the house. 3 Link to comment
october November 25, 2015 Share November 25, 2015 That scene with Emma playing video games with Henry was really great. It's rare to see portrayals of women gaming on TV, especially with their kids, and to see it portrayed as a normal part of life. I once sat down to go through some Regal Believer scenes from S4 via YouTube to see if Regina spent any quality time with Henry that wasn't all about her. I didn't find much. I got my hopes up during a scene where she came into the diner and gave him some comic books. But that ended up being a ruse so she could figure out if he knew who the author of the storybook was. What's really sad about that scene is that Henry assumed she'd done it as an unprompted act of kindness. And when he learns the truth, instead of being upset, he calls it the best idea she's ever had and jumps head-first into Operation Mongoose. 2 Link to comment
Rumsy4 November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 The Rumbelle break-up moment: too little, too late, and pointless. We all know they will get back together in the S5 finale. This just gives de Ravin a break until she has the baby. 3 Link to comment
HoodlumSheep November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 ^ yeah, too little too late. Man, it's a rough time to be a CS shipper. That was painful. :'( I'm ride or die at this point though, so here's to hoping this is the low point for them. 3 Link to comment
PixiePaws1 November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 Emma said some pretty cruel things to Killian during her monotonous 'I love New York' phase and he was just trying to help her...so she will probably get past it ..Killian...oh wow..he is going to be his own punching bag for quite some time. The writers only allow in depth character discussion when it suits the break neck plot so....I am guessing we get maybe a 30 second scene of angst over DO shenanigans if things ever get patched up between them. Snow defending Emma for saving Killian was nice to see for 5 mins...would have been nice for Emma to know about it though. . 4 Link to comment
mjgchick November 30, 2015 Share November 30, 2015 I hate that once this is all said and done Emma and Hook won't have time to talk about the things they've done to each other. What Hook said to Emma is way worse than the things Emma said to Hook in S3. What Emma did to Hook was wrong even if she was desperate. He's the thing he hates the most. Its sad that their downfall was him thinking she didn't believe in him. Even as these powerful beings they still managed to make their insecurities seem real. I guess that's the best thing jI could come out of last night's episode for those two. I really hope Emma's faith in her and Hooks relationship works out for her because its just not fair that since taking on the Darkness has done nothing but give her pain and her family (and Hook) getting angry at her for wanting to fix her mess on her own as if its then worse thing anyone's done on the show. Link to comment
Rumsy4 December 2, 2015 Share December 2, 2015 (edited) I understand that it's nuanced, but there is a deep truth to it and I just think it won't actually be addressed. The comparison to Anna's reaction to Elsa with the mirror shard is hard for me because her reaction was tied into the background of Frozen and I actually haven't seen the movie. I think Elsa pushed Anna away because she'd hurt her as a child, yes? And the parents were involved somehow. So it's not some deep psychological issue, it was about protecting her from Elsa's lack of control, which was something that was not a problem anymore. It was more about Anna getting her feelings about the whole thing out there. In the movie, Elsa seemed like someone with severe anxiety and depression. Her parents were those well-intentioned but clueless people who pretty much locked her up for most of her childhood and didn't do much to help her deal with her powers. Anna's memories of the accident were also taken away. So, Anna had no clue why her sister was so isolated and seemingly uncaring, while Elsa was dealing with her own fears in isolation and misery. So, it is natural for there to be a lot of hurt, but it wasn't insurmountable because of their love and commitment to each other as sisters. Yes, Emma is trying very hard, but she will continue to hurt him with it and there's not a whole lot she can do about it. I know a lot of people want Emma to just get over it, but regardless of how you feel about it, that's not realistic. It doesn't work that way. Some of it is just instinctual. If you've been abused, you still flinch when someone raises their hand, even though you know that they aren't going to hit you. Hook understands this, yes, but it hurts him. So now there's Emma knowing how much she hurts him with things that are not entirely in her control. The whole thing is very sad. Well---perhaps it is time for Emma to recognize that she hurts him. I don't think she needs to be coddled from the knowledge, especially now that she is a lot stronger than she was before. Plus she has other people who care for her as well. Emma does know that she has hurt Hook by pushing him away or when she (intentionally) has said biting things to him, but I don't think she realized how deep it cut. Emma called Hook useless in a fight because he only had one hand. It was a low blow just like Hook's "orphan" comment. I don't think anyone believes Emma really devalues Hook because of the loss of his hand. But maybe he doesn't. The way he went about trying to get his hand back in 4A seemed very much a result of that comment. He knows that Emma loves him and can't bear to lose him. But he clearly also needs to know that Emma has faith in him and trusts him the way he trusts her. Overriding his will, and following it up by lying to him and controlling him felt like a huge betrayal to him with the Darkness egging on his worst insecurities and fears. Healing from deep psychological and emotional wounds can be a long process, but Hook has suffered from these kind of issues too. It is good for couples to talk about how they hurt each other sometimes. I have never said that Emma needed to "get over" her issues. But there is a huge difference between expecting people to "get over" something, and dealing with things in a mature and understanding manner. Hook has been quite understanding, but their relationship has always been a little skewed. Both CS-ers and non CS-ers have felt that. For them to grow into a really equal relationship, things like this need to be brought into the open. I'm actually astounded that the writers are finally dealing with this issue. It is sad that it is coming out this way, but at least it is finally being dealt with. Edited December 2, 2015 by Rumsy4 5 Link to comment
KAOS Agent December 2, 2015 Share December 2, 2015 I'm not arguing that they shouldn't bring it out and how it hurts him, I like it a lot. However, this show has a huge habit of bringing out this stuff and shoving it under the rug. So rather than Emma & Hook having a rational conversation where they discuss it and both acknowledge that it's something that maybe cannot be fixed, but can be mitigated somehow so Emma doesn't spend all her time feeling guilty for her instinctive reactions hurting him, they'll share some epic True Love's Kiss and they'll all live happily ever after until the next time the writers feel like pulling it out again (See: Emma's issues with her parents). One of the things I took issue with was that Hook told Emma he had never abandoned her. He died in her arms. That's abandonment - not intentional, but he left her. Not only that, there was a choice involved. He could stay with her as the Dark One or he could die in peace. He was perfectly right to choose death over the Dark One option, but in a twisted way, he chose death over their future. He told Emma to trust him and said their future was nothing to be afraid of and made promises he couldn't keep and then the future was proven to be very much something she should be afraid of. Emotionally compromised Emma would have big problems with this in general and if we're looking at the Darkness amplifying your worst tendencies and fears, Emma's abandonment and loss issues are going to be seriously off the charts. Everything that happened in Camelot basically blew both of them up and took a stable, loving relationship to a place that in real life would be difficult to recover from. Hook's insecurities and Emma's issues are pretty incompatible. 2 Link to comment
YaddaYadda December 2, 2015 Share December 2, 2015 Hook's insecurities and Emma's issues are pretty incompatible. I've always viewed Hook's insecurities, and Emma's issues at their core come from the same thing, abandonment, and that was a huge theme in 5x10 between them. His abandonment issues led him down a path that makes him basically hate himself. And Emma's abandonment issues make her isolate herself. Although in Emma's case, the way her family surrounded her, might as well be isolated. 2 Link to comment
Shanna Marie December 2, 2015 Share December 2, 2015 Yes, Emma is trying very hard, but she will continue to hurt him with it and there's not a whole lot she can do about it. I know a lot of people want Emma to just get over it, but regardless of how you feel about it, that's not realistic. It doesn't work that way. Some of it is just instinctual. If you've been abused, you still flinch when someone raises their hand, even though you know that they aren't going to hit you. Hook understands this, yes, but it hurts him. So now there's Emma knowing how much she hurts him with things that are not entirely in her control. I don't think it hurts him that much when he's thinking clearly because he gets it. He understands where she's coming from and has figured her out well enough to know that it's not about him, that she's that way with everyone and is probably better with him than she is with most people. It might have stung a little when she was actively pushing him away before they got together, but their relationship has become rather secure. All her normal behavior shows that she loves and trusts him. The problem now is that the Darkness has basically made him a giant walking wound. His darkness always came from a place of pain that came from loss and a sense of abandonment. His first tip into darkness was when he lost Liam, and then he pulled himself together enough to find love with Milah, and then he lost her, and this is all happening to someone who was abandoned by his father when he was a child. He blamed himself for Liam's death, may have blamed himself for Milah's death, and it would be very likely and quite common for a child to have blamed himself for his father leaving. Add to that a lot of actual truly bad behavior, and you get a ton of self-loathing that has absolutely nothing to do with Emma. No matter how much faith she and others showed in him, he'd still have a part of himself that felt unworthy of her. When he's sane and thinking clearly, he can see past the fear to recognize the faith she does show in him -- she trusts him with her son, which is huge. But the darkness blots out all the light, leaving only the anger and fear and pain, so all he can see are his insecurities, and so he magnifies every slight. I'm not sure that there's anything she could have done that he wouldn't have interpreted as a betrayal and lack of faith in him. So what might be rather minor issues that they could easily snap themselves out of in normal circumstances get blown to high heaven when they're both Dark Ones. I think she's shown plenty of signs of having faith in him, even if she hasn't had the chance to go for the same kind of big gestures he has for her, like selling his ship to reach her or jumping through a time portal after her. Though things likely will get ugly in the future because now he'll have even more to be self-loathing about and he may not even give her a chance to show she believes in him because he'll assume that she can't possibly do so after all that happened and everything he's said and done (what do you bet he shows more guilt, remorse, and anguish over saying some mean things to Emma than Regina has shown for mass murder?). 4 Link to comment
Faemonic December 2, 2015 Share December 2, 2015 (edited) First, unpopular opinion time: I didn't see Snowing as completely horrible parents in 510. I might even have wished that MM had more of a moment when she finds her daughter knocked out cold and cuffed, because I haven't seen those mother-daughter moments since Neverland. I even thought Charming was actually daddying okay in the present storyline, even though at that moment Dark One Emma needed more than distantly reassuring parents. Maybe the acknowledgment that MM made in Camelot about how Emma chose love softened me to them. While we never get scenes of anybody really being friends, not since Red quit organizing the girls' nights out, I didn't interpret Charming throwing shade on Dark Hook's trustworthiness as that Charming was a shotgun father. It doesn't gel to me with how Charming's What-Are-Your-Intentions talk ended at the ice wall, and Hook's intermediary role between Emma and her parents all through the Queens of Darkness arc. They're probably as close as this show is going to get to friendship between guys, and I think Charming knew Hook like a friend would. Hook threw shade on Dark Hook's trustworthiness. And Darth Jones was really erratic. Clippy was telling him that Emma had Excalibur, but didn't need it because she could use Darth Jones' trust in her to manipulate him. Ironically, it comes off as Darth Jones used Emma's trust to manipulate her into giving him Excalibur. Emotional manipulation might be too strong a word in what ought to be a natural feature of a relationship: compromise. But, that was a bad time to compromise. The fix-it fic running through my head was if the new Dark Swan was already as walls-up and simmering with resentment as all hell, and she teleported herself back to Granny's, and used the dagger to summon Darth Jones, and wouldn't be sorry about it because it was for his own good and he wasn't himself. Instead, she was told off for doing the smart thing that was also the bad/wrong thing, and had the worst consequences to reap from her willingness to compromise and learn from that telling-off...so, doing the foolish thing that was supposed to be the good/right thing. Of course Emma would, because she was new at being Dark, and was vulnerable and unstable after a traumatic experience. The new Darth Jones wasn't in a good place, either, and didn't deserve full agency/autonomy (taking that to the Morality thread) but most of all poor Emma! The show just sets it up so it's like she can't do anything right! She's wrong for following her heart or her instincts, and she's wrong for trusting other people's counsel! Or maybe the message is that every choice has a consequence and ways to deal with that consequence? Edited December 2, 2015 by Faemonic 1 Link to comment
Rumsy4 December 2, 2015 Share December 2, 2015 (edited) Everything that happened in Camelot basically blew both of them up and took a stable, loving relationship to a place that in real life would be difficult to recover from. Hook's insecurities and Emma's issues are pretty incompatible. If their issues were crippling without the Darkness twisting everything, then I would agree. But they are not. I don't think people with issues can only be in a healthy relationship with those that don't have similar issues. Hook and Emma clearly do have things that needed to be brought to the open, but not to the point of deciding they could never make it as a couple once the Darkness is gone. YMMV. I do agree that the show has terrible track record in dealing with relationship issues. But CS has been written better than most at this point. So, I'm somewhat optimistic at this point. Who knows though. The new Darth Jones wasn't in a good place, either, and didn't deserve full agency/autonomy. The new Darth Emma was about to crush Merida's heart, when Hook talked her down from it. He wanted her to choose to spare her life (whether he was right or not was debatable, but this Show is all about Hope). But Emma, after overriding his wishes, and telling Hook that they could get rid of the Darkness together, when push came to shove, her first instinct was to not trust him and lie to him. It's not like Hook was about to crush David's heart or something when Emma found him. That was probably the side-effect of her own Costume-change moment for creating a new Dark One. They both were not in a good place, and one can understand both their motivations. But, man, poor Emma doesn't deserve an ounce of the crap that happens to her. Edited December 2, 2015 by Rumsy4 4 Link to comment
Curio December 2, 2015 Share December 2, 2015 One of the things I took issue with was that Hook told Emma he had never abandoned her. He died in her arms. That's abandonment - not intentional, but he left her. It's hard for me accept death as being equivalent to abandonment. When I think of abandonment, I think of an action or premeditated plan to purposely leave someone. (See: Neal.) Hook leaving Storybrooke at the end of Season 2 for a couple minutes counts as abandonment, but he tried to redeem himself by turning his ship around. Dying because of a freak wound that wasn't your fault isn't abandonment. I've used this example before, but if someone said they were going to meet you for lunch but they randomly got into a car crash, you're not going to say they ditched out on your lunch date. So sure, we can call Season 2 Hook leaving Emma in the cell or sailing away on his ship as abandonment, but it's difficult for me to call his death an abandonment. 2 Link to comment
Faemonic December 2, 2015 Share December 2, 2015 (edited) One of the things I took issue with was that Hook told Emma he had never abandoned her. He died in her arms. That's abandonment - not intentional, but he left her. Not only that, there was a choice involved. He could stay with her as the Dark One or he could die in peace. It's hard for me accept death as being equivalent to abandonment. When I think of abandonment, I think of an action or premeditated plan to purposely leave someone. I think you're both right. Emma couldn't blame him for getting scratched in battle, but if he died from it then she would definitely grieve his loss. And it isn't certain that she'd grieve him in as healthy a way, which might be as bad as blaming. It wouldn't be an intellectual or emotional blame, but it would be a life of every action being a consequence of that loss, a sort of acted-out-and-lived form of blame. (And if there are going to be such immense emotional consequences either way, might as well stick around and lend a hand--eh, Cap'n?) (Seriously though this in-show universe has access to the afterlife. I don't want Emma's head torn off by Bacchantes, like Orpheus.) The new Darth Emma was about to crush Merida's heart, when Hook talked her down from it. Darth Jones made a good argument for that, but didn't account for how they're not the same person. Right before Emma ate the Forces of Darkness, she turned to her family and voiced faith that they'd get the darkness out of her. In contrast, Hook was begging her not to throw him in the pit of darkness, and maybe it's fair enough to say to his vision of the future, "That's just, like, your opinion...dude..." but I believe the approach to the Darkness was an important determiner. When I say Darth Jones didn't deserve agency, I also mean that Hook wouldn't have given it to him. Edited December 2, 2015 by Faemonic Link to comment
KingOfHearts December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 Some fans think she ought to have taken him back, now that he had become what she always wanted, especially after desperately trying to save him. It's not that it's what she shouldn't have done, but what she wouldn't have done. Compare that calm breakup with her kicking him out of town in 4x11. She does all that emotional rejection, but now she just wants time to herself for a while. Rumple going hero was not the change that caused her to become civil with him, either. She was back in his cheerleading squad at the end of 4B. How does it make any sense that she waited until after he "straightened himself out" (I used that phrase lightly) to leave him again? It's almost like she was manipulating him to become a hero. 1 Link to comment
Camera One December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 (edited) Imagine the amount of character building and character development they could have done if they cut Merida and the entire "make him into a hero so he can remove Excalibur from the stone" out of "The Bear and the Bow" and had the Storybrooke scenes with only Belle and Rumple, hashing out the consequences of what Rumple did in Season 4? Edited December 6, 2015 by Camera One Link to comment
Rumsy4 December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 But isn't it unfair to expect Belle to take him back when he did not reject the Darkness of his own accord, and has been a "hero" for literally 5 minutes? Link to comment
KingOfHearts December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 (edited) But isn't it unfair to expect Belle to take him back when he did not reject the Darkness of his own accord, and has been a "hero" for literally 5 minutes? Thing is, she did... then she didn't. She has taken him back after doing much worse things, but now we've seen her reject him only after he did a good thing. I don't think she's fond of Hero!Rumple or Coward!Rumple. She's more attracted to Mr. Gold or Sparkly!Rumple. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. For me, I do think Belle has a right to break up with Rumple and I think this should have been the only story for Belle/Rumple in 5A, minus the dumb Merida/sword puller crap. It's just the breakup in "Broken Heart" was not consistent with how she was acting towards Rumple at the end of 4B, nor with her proclaiming Rumple to be a hero multiple times in 5A thus far. This. I totally agree 100% that Belle should dump Rumple. But it's out of character compared to what we've seen lately. Edited December 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts Link to comment
Camera One December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 For me, I do think Belle has a right to break up with Rumple and I think this should have been the only story for Belle/Rumple in 5A, minus the dumb Merida/sword puller crap. It's just the breakup in "Broken Heart" was not consistent with how she was acting towards Rumple at the end of 4B, nor with her proclaiming Rumple to be a hero multiple times in 5A thus far. As usual, the writing is just atrocious. 5 Link to comment
Rumsy4 December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 (edited) Thing is, she did... then she didn't. She has taken him back after doing much worse things, One could argue that was when she was trying to reform him. It's just the breakup in "Broken Heart" was not consistent with how she was acting towards Rumple at the end of 4B, nor with her proclaiming Rumple to be a hero multiple times in 5A thus far. She was also equating Dark Swan with Rumple, and getting annoyed that the "heroes" were doing noting to help him. Right... Edited December 6, 2015 by Rumsy4 Link to comment
Camera One December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 She was supposedly holed up with Rumple in the Shop for the past few episodes. Why didn't she just tell Rumple she wanted some me-time then? You'd think half the characters turn into trees when they're off-screen. 6 Link to comment
KingOfHearts December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 (edited) One could argue that was when she was trying to reform him. That sounds manipulative to me, though. She acted like he could win her back by being a hero. It's like she was egging him on only to get him to help stop Dark Swan. That's not exactly immoral in my book if she was trying to save lives, but it's not good for their relationship as people. She was also equating Dark Swan with Rumple, and getting annoyed that the "heroes" were doing noting to help him. Right... After the reveals from 5x08 and 5x10, I'm decently disgusted by how Emma's been judged. Plus, A&E teased her as the worst Big Bad yet. She's made mistakes but she hasn't done anything particularly evil. At least, not anything in the Regina or Rumple realm. Heck, even Zelena is higher on the villain scale and she only has one body count. At least when Emma was going to kill her it was for the needs of many outweighing the few. Doesn't justify it, but that's worlds better reasoning than what else we've seen from this show. I see what you mean. Though to me, the possibilities for Rumbelle every half season could have been fascinating. I mean, even 5A. And then we got "Belle and the Giant Bell Jar" followed by "The Bear and the Bow". I have zero faith the writers know how to write for this couple, even less so than many of the other main characters. Their relationship would be 10x more enjoyable to watch if the writers embraced the Stockholm Syndrome. Edited December 6, 2015 by KingOfHearts Link to comment
Rumsy4 December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 Maybe Belle feels cheated that the Apprentice and Dark Swan had more of a hand in saving Rumple and turning him into a hero than she ever did. Yeah--I got nothing. Link to comment
mjgchick December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 Maybe Belle feels cheated that the Apprentice and Dark Swan had more of a hand in saving Rumple and turning him into a hero than she ever did. Yeah--I got nothing. On another show maybe because I feel like Belle's ones of those women who enjoys being responsible for saving the bad boy. 2 Link to comment
Mari December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 (edited) That sounds manipulative to me, though. She acted like he could win her back by being a hero. It's like she was egging him on only to get him to help stop Dark Swan. That's not exactly immoral in my book if she was trying to save lives, but it's not good for their relationship as people. Manipulative, or she decided that being with someone who didn't have that dark edge was something she wasn't interested in, after all. I don't think I see their relationship as Stockholm syndrome, so much as a relationship where the female character has completely embraced the good-girl/bad-boy trope, while at the same time finding some vicarious pleasure in the misery caused by her "bad boy." We talk about how Skin Deep Belle didn't put up with Rumple's evilness, but IIRC, even in Skin Deep, she didn't leave him--he kicked her out after she tried the True Love Kiss without telling him, and he decided he didn't want to risk having her around. But, she went to him, knowing how evil he was--we know that not only did his name terrify people, but that Anna had specifically warned Belle about him. The times she's left him, have lasted only a day or two of being upset, and they have never seemed to be because she was afraid of him or because he was controlling or abusive, it's been because she had less power over him than she expected or believed. She's even talked about how much she loves all of him--even the dark parts--and, well, she didn't fall in love with Rumplestiltskin the poor spinner, she fell in love with Rumplestiltskin the Dark One, who lived in a castle, and treated her like she was different, so who really cared if he treated other people badly, as long as he wasn't too obvious about it, and she kept her special spot? Now, I'm not saying she should've stayed with Rumple; he was a controlling creep. But, well, it seems to me that based on the timing of it, and the previous pattern of their relationship, she left him not because he was a controlling creep, but because he was no longer a controlling creep who could provide her with the ego rush of being the one thing controlling and influencing a powerful man. ETA: I know that the current separation was probably prompted by de Ravin's need for maternity leave, but that only decides the timing of it--they could easily have had her kidnapped or cursed or statued or presumed killed, and just filmed a short happy reunion scene now to insert into the season finale. It will be telling if Rumple is somehow eviled/powered up again when the two reunite. (And, yes, I think it is when the two characters romantically reunite. I can't see A&E separated them forever unless one actor permanently leaves the series.) Edited December 6, 2015 by Mari 3 Link to comment
Shanna Marie December 6, 2015 Share December 6, 2015 I suppose you could say that Belle has been consistently inconsistent all along. When the TLK didn't work and he kicked her out, she took the "call me when you're not evil" attitude. The next time she saw him, he was even worse than he'd been back then because he'd made sure the curse was cast and had spent 28 years being a jerk even without magic or without the memory of being a Dark One, and then the first thing she saw him do when they were reunited was restore magic so he'd have power, after which he summoned a wraith to send after Regina. Belle got back with him then. But then she left him when she caught him doing magic to make a potion. But then she refused to listen to her father's criticisms of her (minor things like Rumple almost beating him to death and keeping her from knowing that her father was in town looking for her after the curse). She got back with Rumple after he gave her a library. After she learned that Rumple murdered his first wife and that he'd lied (or withheld information) to her about what happened to Milah and the source of his feud with Hook, and after seeing him almost beat Hook to death, she went with him to the town line with no qualms or reservations. After the whole Lacey experience, where she saw what he was like without her nagging him to be good, and after seeing that he was willing to let her and everyone else in town die rather than helping because he was sad about Neal's believed death, she went straight to "our love is so true" land without a second thought. She married him when she believed he'd sacrificed himself for everyone to kill Pan and when she believed he'd been sad about the bad things Zelena forced him to do. But then when she learned that he hadn't given up the gauntlet for her (and other minor stuff like he hadn't given her the real dagger and was scheming to destroy her work with the fairies and when she caught him killing Hook), she kicked him out of town. After he used all kinds of underhanded means to get back to town and deceived her to get the dagger back and then was plotting to darken Emma so he could rewrite everything to make himself a hero, she told him she never really felt anything for Will because Rumple was the one she loved, and then she carried that rose around all over the place. She walked out when he was fleeing rather than being a hero, then was back to cheerleading when he threw the magic bag at the bear, hung around being supporting, and then walked after he "won" against Hook. So who knows what the hell she wants, what draws her to him, what her turn-offs are, what her line in the sand is. She tolerates what most people would consider dealbreakers and picks weird things to be mad about. 4 Link to comment
InsertWordHere December 7, 2015 Share December 7, 2015 I do kind of love that Captain "Be the man you want to be" Hook fell in love with Emma "You just gotta punch back and say, 'no, this is who I am!'" Swan. 8 Link to comment
Faemonic December 7, 2015 Share December 7, 2015 (edited) So, Hook...when Emma jabs you with her sword, you'll feel it. Could Liam II be Henry Jr.'s classmate? Awkward. I made mention of this in Belle's character thread, but I don't like how all of the Nevengers are in on not informing Belle about this new development. Is that why they just let her crumple onto the asphalt when Pan died? Just...nobody really likes her, but when they need a researcher she's there? Because that's the sort of mean girls in high school dynamic that I see going on here, Robin and David included. Edited December 7, 2015 by Faemonic 1 Link to comment
InsertWordHere December 7, 2015 Share December 7, 2015 Could Liam II be Henry Jr.'s classmate? Awkward. If he is, will these writers be able to resist putting Hook's brother and Rumple's grandson/Neal's son into a love triangle? 2 Link to comment
Faemonic December 7, 2015 Share December 7, 2015 (edited) If he is, will these writers be able to resist putting Hook's brother and Rumple's grandson/Neal's son into a love triangle? No. No, they will not be able to resist. Edited December 7, 2015 by Faemonic 2 Link to comment
KingOfHearts December 9, 2015 Share December 9, 2015 (edited) They left so many things up in the air. Loved Captain Swan, hated ALL the plot holes, and 5A was filled with them. Captain Swan finally got its solidification as a major couple. Yes they were official before, but now I'd put them on the same level as Snowing in scale. My only real problem was with Dark Hook. It was hammered in too much to be consistent with his character and feelings for Emma, in my opinion. It seems it was written that way in order to give more weight to the sacrifice, and to me that was plot over characters. Other than that, I like seeing Hook's determination in the early half and Emma's determination in the latter half. That "I'll always find you" at the end just sealed the deal. Edited December 9, 2015 by KingOfHearts 7 Link to comment
Faemonic December 10, 2015 Share December 10, 2015 I hate how mercurial Rumbelle is. I was just bored by it in season 2, but this most recent patch-up...I hate it. Why is it that they have to patch things up right away? I thought the pacing was actually much better when they were trying to shoehorn Will in. There was actual breathing room. Now whenever Belle says that she needs time after a lot of thought, I'm actually not going to believe her. I thought they were at least going to let the feels ferment until the end of 5B. Pretty much every point of relationship conflict on this show has been a pattern of "Uh-oh! Haha never mind." Link to comment
Rumsy4 December 10, 2015 Share December 10, 2015 It is infuriating. If Belle had gone back to Rumple immediately after he had gone "full hero", it would have made more sense. But the writers had to amp up the drama by having her "take a break", and then run back to him 5 minutes later. It makes out Belle to be a moron. The only reason they did that was to show Rumple's sadface when he "selflessly" sent Belle away. And what does Belle mean when she says sending her away was the most selfless thing Rumple had done? What about when he sacrificed himself to save her and Neal from Pan? When he fought Bearida to save her? And it's not like Rumple tried to save more people. He only tried to get Belle out of Sb. But that's par on course for Rumbelle. Belle gives a shit about other people as long as she thinks Rumple is seemingly good to her. 5 Link to comment
KingOfHearts December 10, 2015 Share December 10, 2015 Belle's break really makes no sense now. I thought she would be leaving town while Emilie was pregnant, but nope. There's really no reason for Belle to leave for five seconds and come back. What exactly erased all the heartbreak all of a sudden? The fact he lied to her again? 3 Link to comment
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