S10.E12: About A Boy

[rue721]

I do think the Easter bunny joke was a bit of a retcon. If I remember Supernatural Christmas correctly, Sam was making a joke about the Easter bunny when he was asking whether it was real. Or was it Santa Claus? And I think he was supposed to be younger than 11 then no?

 

I just keep imagining a hunt where 11y/o!Sam is supposed to be doing the research and gloms onto the theory that they're tracking the Easter Bunny, and Dean and John are rolling their eyes at him but Sam, being stubborn, won't stop trying to prove his theory right.

 

I can just see the phone call where Sam is back at the motel with their books and Dean's on the phone with him from out in the field with John, and Sam keeps trying to argue with Dean that it really is the Easter Bunny, and John finally just snaps his fingers and tells Dean to give him the damn phone.

 

They've seemed to have a bigger music budget this year, but Taylor Swift may not be all that expensive. Normally they wouldn't have ever considered using Taylor Swift on the show. It's kinda been an unwritten rule--or at least a revolving joke--that they don't use anything recorded after 1983.

 

Or...1989 perhaps? (bada-bing)

 

I'm wondering if it's some sort of network note--like TPTB just now noticed that Dean drinks a little too much and decided, "Won't someone think of the children?"  Otherwise I can't figure out why this is just now being brought up so much.  They joked about when they were fighting the Japanese alcohol demon and Sam asked if Dean could even get drunk anymore and now it seems weirdly--I don't know...preachy for lack of a better word.

 

It didn't bother me in this episode, I was actually happy that Dean was so frank, and joking around about it with Tina. It was weird/funny how he gave himself a pep talk ("I'm going to believe in myself!") to get himself to order a drink when he first went in the bar, lol. But I just don't know where the show is going with it.

 

It wasn't just Dean, either -- the premise of the episode was apparently that Hansel and the witch picked up drunks because nobody would miss them if they vanished, and Tina mentioned that her dad drank their money until she was living off Tic-Tacs (wow, right?!).

[SueB]

My apologies for the lack of quote/response -- but so many of the same comments I want to talk about, I'm going to simplify my responses in general to topics brought up:

 

Samsel In Distress - This was one BAMF Witch. The planned attack (molotov blood? cocktail) got smashed in seconds.  Sam was thrown against the wall by the BAMF while Hansel, the human, wrestled with Dean.  I give Sam a pass for being stunned.  Plus he pulled his own BadAss move with the bartender earlier.  So...I was okay with it.  YES, they set it up so Dean --- who had expressed interest in staying 14 to avoid return of the MoC -- made a choice to accept back the Mark and save them. They overplayed the effect of the light stunning people a bit. But they set up Dean's two kills as surprise and opportunity. I didn't think it reflected badly on Sam. Witches are HARD for the Winchesters.

 

Why Shove The Hex Bag in her Mouth? -- So she couldn't cast a spell and to take her off her game.  Her mouth (besides being a Dental Apocalypse) was the most dangerous weapon in the room.  The Hex Bag is what he had in his hand.  I thought that was Dean being very smart.  Without her spells he could easily shove her in the oven (which was a nice recall of the original story and poetic justice). 

 

Tina was a BarFly -- And possibly an alcoholic.  She didn't refuse Dean's drinks and then they have 6 empty shot glasses in front of them. I'd say they were well matched.  And both drinking hard liquor middle of the day in a dive. So Tina fit the profile and so much as Hansel was concerned, Dean did as well.  Tina says (about JP) "You're in here getting stunned while the sun's still up? Your life's a regular Charlie Foxtrot." Charlie Foxtrot means clusterfuck if you didn't know that slang.  

 

"I prefer functional alcoholic" - As I said last night I was stunned by Dean's admission.  He crawled back into the bottle at the end of Road Trip last year when he separated from Sammy.  Up until he was de-demonized, he was heavily drinking on a daily basis.  It seemed less post de-demonizing but last week they made the connection between alcohol and the Mark.  Here's what I saw this week:

- Dean knows he's an alcoholic.  In addition to the admission, he stares at the drink before taking it. He talks about needing a virgin liver. 

- Drinking in the bar with Tina was not a very healthy "believe in myself" move.  This is the kind of self-talk rationalization that allows us to do bad things because we think it's okay.  And the Mark was happy to see him rationalizing because the music cue told us so.  OTOH, Dean has been thru the detox/retox cycle a couple of times now. So, maybe he will always drink but not as heavily. So long as he stays hunter-functional and not MoC wild, it may just be part of who he is.  I think the jury is out.

- I think the Mark is acting on any impulse that is rooted in dark motives. Dean's alcoholism, while not an addiction, started out as a compensating mechanism for his mangst.  And Dean is a grumpy drunk IMO.  He lets out a few harsh truths when he's had too much.  So --- it could be any behavioral pattern that encourages a dark mood.  I suspect it's less about his functionality and more about alcohol encourages his inner darkness.  

 

Taylor Swift: My first reaction was a shudder. BUT this is the same guy who would love to belt out "All Out of Love" if Sammy wasn't in the car.  So Dean LIKES her happy little song.  The fact that he admitted it, despite Sam's frown, and cranked it up at the end was a Dean victory.  It's Dean being who he WANTS to be, not a persona of who he's supposed to be.  This is a big step.

 

So I think we got THREE major Dean growth moments in this episode:

- He's openly acknowledging he's an alcoholic

- He like's the Taylor Swift song and it makes him happy -- and expectations be damned, he's going to listen to it in front of Sammy.

- He didn't turn into Stabby McStabberson when the Mark came back on.  

Edited February 4, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

 

- He didn't turn into Stabby McStabberson when the Mark came back on.

 

He didn't go Killy McStabberson but he did use great verve and vim with pushing the witch into the oven...which was awesome BTW. As I mentioned upthread, I think Dean has a specific killface now IMO that is different than his torturer/monster killer face when he was 100% human. 

 

IIRC, Dean has yet to kill a completely innocent person who was not trying to hurt him or someone else. And here he didn't even seem to need pulling back from that ledge completely.  I am now starting to think maybe Dean is instinctively only killing those that are an immediate threat to those around him or for his own survival. In this case Tina and Sam were not threats to him to maybe the bloodlust wanes?  I dunno just a thought.

[SueB]

 

I am now starting to think maybe Dean is instinctively only killing those that are an immediate threat to those around him or for his own survival. In this case Tina and Sam were not threats to him to maybe the bloodlust wanes?  I dunno just a thought.

Possibly.  I definitely think Sam is safe because all Sam has to do is shout his name and it triggers Dean to come out of the bloodlust IMO.

 

I forgot one other topic;

Easter Bunny -- I'm going to adopt someone else (upstream post) that once Sam knew that many myths and fairy tales were real, he was more likely to think there was truth in them.  Maybe it wasn't a Killer Easter Bunny and maybe it wasn't worldwide -- but HEY, Garth ganked the Tooth Fairy.  So... ya know, Sammy doesn't look that dumb.  And besides, S11 -- The Easter Bunny could show.  

Edited February 4, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

Oh gods, if the Easter Bunny is anything like the rabbit in Donnie Darko, I will probably forgive anything stupid about monsters ever again....maybe. 

[Aeryn13]

This one was pretty enjoyable and Dylan Everett did a fantastic job. I liked that it was a reaffirmation of Dean as heroic, didn`t expect that. And that even in a teen`s body, he was a badass in his own right. Now granted, he had adult!Dean`s memory and I`m sure teen!Dean at that age already had enough training but that would actually create more difficulty IMO because the mind would be used to certain length of reach, pack of punch and physical strength that the body currently can`t provide.

 

I liked that it was kinda a take-back of that awful Purge speech. As much acknowledgment that we`ll get I think insofar as the generalized "you are fine in making sacrifices, just as long as it`s never you sacrificing" part aka "you are a callous coward" is complete and utter bullshit. Very pleasantly surprised about that.

 

Mrs.Patmore as the witch cracked me up. Of course Dean taking on the Mark again and reverting back to his normal self was a foregone conclusion but I liked that it was his choice. I also liked that he was the one who brought up the possibility of "hey, this is the solution".

 

And in the beginning, he DID try to minimize potential for any damage caused by him by taking himself out of the action.

 

Tina was also a pretty great character, in both incarnations.

 

What I did not care for are the overdone alcoholism references. Even IF I had any kind of interest or enjoyment in those kind of stories which I very, very much don`t, this show just has been wishy-washy about it for years. Sometimes, the drinking happens in the background and it obviously not supposed to even noticed as something bad or significant and every now and then when the writers want to make lame real life parallels, they put a frowny face on it.

 

You have a freaking supernatural addiction storyline with the Mark, stick with it and get creative. It`s genre, you don`t need a Lifetime story about addiction. I don`t want to see "oh my, is drinking bad? drinking might be bad" scenes, I don`t want Dean acknowledging alcoholism as "character growth" scenes (*Jedi hand wave* this is not the character growth I`m looking for *Jedi hand wave*), in short if they cut the whole lot of it, I`d be perfectly happy.

 

Seriously, this annoys me as much as when they made Willow`s magic addiction - which was to power and control - into an afterschool special on drug abuse. The only kinds of stories where I tolerate an addiction plotline are any and all variations on the Sherlock Holmes theme.

 

But, short of that, it really was a very good episode.     

[SueB]

 

but that would actually create more difficulty IMO because the mind would be used to certain length of reach, pack of punch and physical strength that the body currently can`t provide.

I thought they did a really good job of conveying that when Hansel was grabbing Dean from behind.  Young Dean keeps pulling on his arm like he should be able to flip him over and...it's not working.  It was a great moment IMO because it brought home, he NEEDS his strength and size to be the renown hunter he is.  

 

 

(*Jedi hand wave* this is not the character growth I`m looking for *Jedi hand wave*)

Hee.  I think if Dean ends up developing healthier coping mechanisms for the world-class trauma shit he deal's with on a daily basis, that would be a good thing for him.  I don't want to see him go thru alcohol rehab in any way.  I just him to not crawl into a bottle when shit gets bad.  So...I'm a no-Lifetime-movie person too on this topic.  Really, his openness this entire episode is so freaking refreshing and HEALTHY, I'm pretty thrilled.  

 

I once had a boss who was an Astronaut (no, I'm not kidding).  After the Challenger blew up, his mission was essentially scrubbed forever and so he lost his shot at going into space.  It's something you work for all your life and then ...it's gone.  But his response (on the personal implications after we all recovered from the horror of the Challenger loss) was healthy. "We're all fugitives from the laws of probability" he said (I think he made that up, not quoting anyone).  And he was right. In that business, that shit is gonna happen. This guy had a way of taking things in stride, usually with some humor and shaking his head and moving on.  I don't expect Dean to start playing "Shake it Off" every time shit goes bad. (Please, it was cute once, don't make it a signature piece please).  But gaining perspective ('some days you get the bear, some days the bear gets you') and not feeling like a failure when stuff goes bad would be a good approach.  Talking about his issues (alcoholism, guilt, whatever is on his mind) without going into denial is a good start IMO.  

Edited February 4, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

Well, personally, I find comfort in Dean's drinking. He's only been drunk ONCE in the show that I remember and that was First Born....so who knows, maybe they have been setting this up this end game that drinking will turn you into a demon eventually.  I keed....mostly.

[rue721]

So Tina fit the profile and so much as Hansel was concerned, Dean did as well.  Tina says (about JP) "You're in here getting stunned while the sun's still up? Your life's a regular Charlie Foxtrot." Charlie Foxtrot means clusterfuck if you didn't know that slang. 

 

Yeah, the witch and Hansel were apparently thinking like Tina did, and figured that if you're a drunk then you're a fuck-up, so probably, nobody would miss you if you were gone -- that's why they were nabbing drunks. I thought that was what the witch explained when the guys asked why she wasn't just stealing (presumably beloved, lol) kids outright.  

 

I think the point is that the witch, Hansel, and Tina were wrong, and that all those "drunks" weren't actually lost causes (including Tina and Dean. OK, maybe J.P. was :P). Dean assumed from the first that Tina wasn't a lost cause (which I really liked), and by the end of the episode, he'd also convinced her of that -- which was why she could then take her second chance. I think the happy ending to "Shake It Off" was supposed to be Dean realizing that he isn't a lost cause, either -- even as a drunk, with the Mark, whatever.

Edited February 4, 2015 by rue721

[cassandle]

What I did not care for are the overdone alcoholism references. Even IF I had any kind of interest or enjoyment in those kind of stories which I very, very much don`t, this show just has been wishy-washy about it for years. Sometimes, the drinking happens in the background and it obviously not supposed to even noticed as something bad or significant and every now and then when the writers want to make lame real life parallels, they put a frowny face on it.

 

Agreed.  And it's not just Dean we've seen drinking in excess all these years.  Bobby, John, Rufus, Ellen...even Sam goes on the occasional bender.  Hunters like to drink--a lot.  It's just what hunters do.  I'm fairly sure that if I saw half the shit they've seen I'd be wasted 24/7.  The fact that Dean is walking around upright and not curled up in a corner sobbing is a testament to how okay he really is.  

 

Now, if this was real life and Dean was a real person with a drinking problem I'd feel differently.  But the dude went to hell--I think he deserves all the drinks he wants.  And if the alcohol is activating the MoC, then it might be a problem.  But they haven't been very clear on that so until there's a concrete correlation between alcohol consumption and Dean hulking out, they can keep their After School Special to themselves.

 

Huh, apparently I'm an enabler.

[catrox14]

Agreed.  And it's not just Dean we've seen drinking in excess all these years.  Bobby, John, Rufus, Ellen...even Sam goes on the occasional bender.  Hunters like to drink--a lot.  It's just what hunters do.  I'm fairly sure that if I saw half the shit they've seen I'd be wasted 24/7.  The fact that Dean is walking around upright and not curled up in a corner sobbing is a testament to how okay he really is.  

 

Now, if this was real life and Dean was a real person with a drinking problem I'd feel differently.  But the dude went to hell--I think he deserves all the drinks he wants.  And if the alcohol is activating the MoC, then it might be a problem.  But they haven't been very clear on that so until there's a concrete correlation between alcohol consumption and Dean hulking out, they can keep their After School Special to themselves.

 

Huh, apparently I'm an enabler.

 

This is where I'm at.  I really don't have issues with the drinking in the show.  This isn't real life. These guys live in a world of monsters, witches, demons and angels...but NOW they use Dean to make statements about the drinking? Eric Kripke must hate this

Edited February 4, 2015 by catrox14

[SueB]

 

I think the happy ending to "Shake It Off" was supposed to be Dean realizing that he isn't a lost cause, either -- even as a drunk, with the Mark, whatever.

I really like this interpretation.  And I agree, Tina was NOT a lost cause.  She was actually pretty kick-ass. 

[catrox14]

And I could live with Tina being a mirror to Dean because it was in Dean's face in his comfort zone not through avatars for Dean .

[ItsABear]

This is where I'm at.  I really don't have issues with the drinking in the show.  This isn't real life. These guys live in a world of monsters, witches, demons and angels...but NOW they use Dean to make statements about the drinking? Eric Kripke must hate this

 

I agree I don't have much problem with Dean's alcohol consumption.  But I am glad he mentioned that he's a "functioning alcoholic".  Because Dean drinks A LOT.  Not just beer, but he regularly does several shots of hard liquor at one sitting in addition to a beer or 3 or 4.  To not mention it would be a huge elephant in the room.  I don't think he needs to stop drinking, but I'm glad his excessive drinking was at least mentioned.

[catrox14]

I agree I don't have much problem with Dean's alcohol consumption.  But I am glad he mentioned that he's a "functioning alcoholic".  Because Dean drinks A LOT.  Not just beer, but he regularly does several shots of hard liquor at one sitting in addition to a beer or 3 or 4.  To not mention it would be a huge elephant in the room.  I don't think he needs to stop drinking, but I'm glad his excessive drinking was at least mentioned.

 

 

But this isn't the first time they've mentioned it in show and even Dean in the past has acknowledged how much he drinks.

 

 -- in Sam Interrupted he said he drank like 50 drinks a week, which I think is an exaggeration but it was making a point. 

-- Dean talking about Hunter's Helper

-- Dean telling Sam that "You shove it down and you let it come out in spurts of violence and alcoholism"

-- Dean telling Sam that he drank too much with Lisa

 

and many other times throughout the show. I could look them all up but those I remember off the top of my head. So this is nothing new for Dean to say he's an alcoholic.  But here I don't understand why they are going about discussing it again and relating it to the MoC. It's weird and inapt. 

[supposebly]

I'm just not sure why it's all of a sudden an issue.

 

It used to be shorthand for "how manly men express when things are bad". Now it's actual......alcoholism.

 

I don't know if I'm clear. It used to be a symbol, now it's treated like an actual thing. I don't like it.

 

And I still don't understand what it has to do with the mark.

[SueB]

And I still don't understand what it has to do with the mark.

Because if he can function as an alcoholic and still do his job, then maybe he can function while bearing the MoC and do his job.

[supposebly]

 

Because if he can function as an alcoholic and still do his job, then maybe he can function while bearing the MoC and do his job.

But he always could do his work and he's been a functioning alcoholic pretty much for the whole show. I just don't see the parallel.

 

In the show's universe, the mark is a real thing and alcoholism is only now a real thing. It never was before. Yeah, I don't really get it.

[catrox14]

Because if he can function as an alcoholic and still do his job, then maybe he can function while bearing the MoC and do his job.

 

That would muddy the waters even more. It seems they've been trying to equate Deans' drinking with being a bad thing....but then they will say well if Dean can function as an alcoholic that means functioning as a murderholic is okay? Which is essentially what Crowley was doing by giving Dean kills to sate him...

 

The Mark is a totally different thing. It is doing something TO HIM that he did not understand would happen. And it turned him into a demon.  Yes he chose to take on the Mark no questions asked and it affected him the first time immediately. To me the difference is that the people know what alcohol will do to them. And it's clearly something Dean wants because it seems to help him cope, whether it's healthy or not, it has worked for him for a long time. And it's something that Dean has stopped and started throughout the years. He barely drank at all in s8.   He doesn't want what the Mark is doing to him other than having the power to kill big enemies. But now he doesn't have the First Blade so that doesn't really matter. 

 

I'll be really disappointed if this was for Dean just say' okey dokey, I'll live with the Mark,consequences be damned because I could live as a functional alcoholic.'. What happens if he's mortally wounded in a fight? Will he die or will the Mark make him a demon again?  (ANSWER THIS QUESTION, SHOW! /shaking fist)

 

I just can't see any parallel, mirror or analogy between  Dean's alcohol use and the Mark that works for me.

Edited February 5, 2015 by catrox14

[ItsABear]

But this isn't the first time they've mentioned it in show and even Dean in the past has acknowledged how much he drinks.

 

 -- in Sam Interrupted he said he drank like 50 drinks a week, which I think is an exaggeration but it was making a point. 

-- Dean talking about Hunter's Helper

-- Dean telling Sam that "You shove it down and you let it come out in spurts of violence and alcoholism"

-- Dean telling Sam that he drank too much with Lisa

 

and many other times throughout the show. I could look them all up but those I remember off the top of my head. So this is nothing new for Dean to say he's an alcoholic.  But here I don't understand why they are going about discussing it again and relating it to the MoC. It's weird and inapt. 

 

I got the impression it had nothing to do with the mark, just that Dean was replying to Tina's mention of his drinking habits.  I don't think his drinking is affected by the MoC except that the stress of having it makes him more likely to drink, but not much more, as he was already quite the heavy drinker before the MoC.  But I appreciate the mention of his drinking habits, because Dean has to know he drinks way more than a normal person would.

[SueB]

The alcoholism was an actual plot point in S7 that was dropped due to time constraints at the end of the year, per Jensen. It was a pretty major sub plot IMO. Jensen's head canon is tha Purgatory dried him out.

And I think it came back when things went bad in S9. IMO, this is part of Dean defining himself. And this terrible coping mechanism is an example of a 'condition' not stopping him.

[rue721]

I don't really see an analogy between Dean drinking too much and having the MoC, but I see a possible connection in that either/both might "mark" him as doomed or ruined. That's why I think it was important that this episode showed him that second chances are possible.

 

For Sam, I think that Sam is enabling him with regard to the Mark. Sam has been trying to get Dean to go out on "small" MotW hunts in order to set up some "safe" kills for him. I think he got all worried and insistent about Dean sticking by the bunker indefinitely because Dean wasn't getting any kills that way. That's maybe a normal way to act -- on the one hand, trying to quietly supply whatever's needed for the person to get by (i.e., monsters to kill!), but at the same time feeling kind of sick/shocked actually watching how desperately and obsessively the person goes after the thing he needs once it's in his grasp (i.e., Dean's over-kills, or even him losing himself in beating Charlie).

 

BUT! Sam refused to get de-aged!Dean any booze. So I don't think that Sam is unwilling to put his foot down, either. Maybe it was good for him to see Dean as a full-of-potential kid, so that he realizes that there's a bigger goal to shoot for than just "maintaining." The goal needs to be to keep *Dean* around, and keeping a MoC-infused-technically-alive-rage-monster around and calling him by Dean's name isn't the same thing or good enough.

 

ETA:

Remember how people were saying that Dean was acting like he knew he was on the way out and just wanted to take as many monsters out with him as he could? Or just do as much good as he could as he went down? I think that maybe now he's going to realize (and Sam is going to realize) that he can/should aim higher. I guess, get some more hope back?

 

I'd really like that, just because I would prefer if Dean wasn't so despairing all the time. I hate that, and it's been going on since maybe S4? I don't need him to be the same guy he was at age 26 but he doesn't need to be DONE with life, either.

Edited February 5, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

I got the impression it had nothing to do with the mark, just that Dean was replying to Tina's mention of his drinking habits.  I don't think his drinking is affected by the MoC except that the stress of having it makes him more likely to drink, but not much more, as he was already quite the heavy drinker before the MoC.  But I appreciate the mention of his drinking habits, because Dean has to know he drinks way more than a normal person would.

 

Yes Dean was replying to Tina's comment, but my point by citing those references is that Dean KNOWS and has openly acknowledged in his own words that he drinks too much. And they did try to tie it the Mark (rightly or wrongly)to Dean's alcohol use having him say I haven't had a drink in a week and everytime he takes a drink or what have you they show his hand shaking or a closeup of his arm or him touching it. To me that is deliberate. 

[catrox14]

 

(keeping *Dean* around, rather than just keeping a MoC-infused-technically-alive-rage-monster around and calling him by Dean's name).

 

Dean isn't a rage monster though. They havent' been addressing the bloodlust factor and instead have tried to tie it Dean's drinking /not drinking (which is it?),eating habits, sex life and rage which IMO it has never been about those things.    It's just getting overly convoluted IMO

Edited February 5, 2015 by catrox14

[rue721]

Dean isn't a rage monster though. They havent' been addressing the bloodlust factor and instead have tried to tie it Dean's drinking /not drinking (which is it?),eating habits, sex life and rage which IMO it has never been about those things.    It's just getting overly convoluted IMO

 

He was the one who called to himself a rage monster in this episode (early on, to Sam), that's what I was referring to.

 

For me, I think the contrast is between him believing that he's doomed to be dead or a monster (and Sam being willing to consider it a success if he keeps Dean technically alive, even if "Dean" has become monster), and them both regaining hope that Dean can still be the person he wanted/wants to be (and being reminded of who *that* person even is!).

Edited February 5, 2015 by rue721

[catrox14]

He was the one who called to himself a rage monster in this episode (early on, to Sam), that's what I was referring to.

 

For me, I think the contrast is between him believing that he's doomed to be dead or a monster (and Sam accepting the possibility of Dean being a monster as long as he's not dead), and them both regaining hope that he can still be the person he wanted/wants to be (and being reminded of who *that* person even is!).

 

I know that is what Dean called himself but it's not really true. And it's driving me crazy that the show is not following up on that it's not about Dean's rage. They keep trying to tie it Dean's emotional state of being but when he was dying in the s9 finale he wasn't dying because he was a rage monster, he was dying because the Mark wanted him to kill. And that seems to be getting dropped in favor of all this other stuff that we , so far, anyway know it's never been about.

 

I agree  with your 2nd paragraph. And I wish the show had just never gone down these other parallels....

[Wynne88]

BUT! Sam refused to get de-aged!Dean any booze. So I don't think that Sam is unwilling to put his foot down, either.

 

I don't know that Sam would really have refused to provide de-aged!Dean with booze.  They were on their way to rescue Tina, so there was time to talk and joke about it, but not to actually get some (or refuse to do so).    I think it's rare that Sam manages to block Dean from much..

[catrox14]

I don't know that Sam would really have refused to provide de-aged!Dean with booze.  They were on their way to rescue Tina, so there was time to talk and joke about it, but not to actually get some (or refuse to do so).    I think it's rare that Sam manages to block Dean from much..

 

Here's my question. If he stopped drinking altogether as 14 year old Dean would he go through withdrawal? Or because he has a new liver theoretically would that not happen?

[7kstar]

Two shows in a row that I really enjoyed...I know it can't kept the record going...But I really love Dylan Everett as Dean.  Never got bothered about the color of his eyes.  I hated the guy that played Dean in high school but Dylan really made this show worked.  I loved that De-aged Dean is now cannon.  lol

 

I agree he really sold how a young boy's body couldn't do something that Dean did without thinking.  And like Dean, he kept trying to figure a way out to save the ones he cared about.

 

The alcoholism was an actual plot point in S7 that was dropped due to time constraints at the end of the year, per Jensen. It was a pretty major sub plot IMO. Jensen's head canon is tha Purgatory dried him out.

And I think it came back when things went bad in S9. IMO, this is part of Dean defining himself. And this terrible coping mechanism is an example of a 'condition' not stopping him.

One point I noticed is that the drink made the mark sing and only Tina's voice drowned it out so he could ignore it.    I can also get that everyone is noticing they have some really young fans so maybe they feel they need to say something for them.  I don't really care either way.  I think Dean will continue to drink but he learns to cut back a bit that would be fine.  I wouldn't mind seeing him hustling for pool money or something else beside porn and drinks all the time.  If this allows the writers a way to get a little more creative than fine.  However if Dean just goes back to drinking heavily, then what a stupid line.

 

My apologies for the lack of quote/response -- but so many of the same comments I want to talk about, I'm going to simplify my responses in general to topics brought up:

 

Samsel In Distress - This was one BAMF Witch. The planned attack (molotov blood? cocktail) got smashed in seconds.  Sam was thrown against the wall by the BAMF while Hansel, the human, wrestled with Dean.  I give Sam a pass for being stunned.  Plus he pulled his own BadAss move with the bartender earlier.  So...I was okay with it.  YES, they set it up so Dean --- who had expressed interest in staying 14 to avoid return of the MoC -- made a choice to accept back the Mark and save them. They overplayed the effect of the light stunning people a bit. But they set up Dean's two kills as surprise and opportunity. I didn't think it reflected badly on Sam. Witches are HARD for the Winchesters.

 

"I prefer functional alcoholic" - As I said last night I was stunned by Dean's admission.  He crawled back into the bottle at the end of Road Trip last year when he separated from Sammy.  Up until he was de-demonized, he was heavily drinking on a daily basis.  It seemed less post de-demonizing but last week they made the connection between alcohol and the Mark.  Here's what I saw this week:

- Dean knows he's an alcoholic.  In addition to the admission, he stares at the drink before taking it. He talks about needing a virgin liver. 

- Drinking in the bar with Tina was not a very healthy "believe in myself" move.  This is the kind of self-talk rationalization that allows us to do bad things because we think it's okay.  And the Mark was happy to see him rationalizing because the music cue told us so.  OTOH, Dean has been thru the detox/retox cycle a couple of times now. So, maybe he will always drink but not as heavily. So long as he stays hunter-functional and not MoC wild, it may just be part of who he is.  I think the jury is out.

- I think the Mark is acting on any impulse that is rooted in dark motives. Dean's alcoholism, while not an addiction, started out as a compensating mechanism for his mangst.  And Dean is a grumpy drunk IMO.  He lets out a few harsh truths when he's had too much.  So --- it could be any behavioral pattern that encourages a dark mood.  I suspect it's less about his functionality and more about alcohol encourages his inner darkness.  

 

Taylor Swift: My first reaction was a shudder. BUT this is the same guy who would love to belt out "All Out of Love" if Sammy wasn't in the car.  So Dean LIKES her happy little song.  The fact that he admitted it, despite Sam's frown, and cranked it up at the end was a Dean victory.  It's Dean being who he WANTS to be, not a persona of who he's supposed to be.  This is a big step.

 

So I think we got THREE major Dean growth moments in this episode:

- He's openly acknowledging he's an alcoholic

- He like's the Taylor Swift song and it makes him happy -- and expectations be damned, he's going to listen to it in front of Sammy.

- He didn't turn into Stabby McStabberson when the Mark came back on.  

In Season 6 Dean had several times that he was easily taken down and saved by Sam.  It wasn't okay for this Dean fan.  My issue is that the writers seem to think you can have a competition between two brothers in hunting.  One always falls and the other rescues them.  But this time it had to happen IMO...because otherwise Dean would have stayed the teenager.  Also he did get the kill, which wouldn't that satisfy the mark's need to kill.

 

It also makes me wonder if Dean hasn't shared that he has to kill to satisfy the mark or it could kill him.  The music cue really made me feel as if the mark was warning Dean it was time to kill and that nothing would stop it.  I just think there are some things Dean is withholding from Sam and Cas.

 

My interpretation on the Taylor Swift song at the end was a part of teen Dean still lived and Dean liked feeling a bit carefree and alive so why not do a few things he hadn't enjoyed in a long time.  It has been shown that he likes music that he would never let Sam know about but I don't think it will be an always thing, if that makes sense.  In this moment he could enjoy it, tomorrow back to the world as usual. 

 

Anyway I really liked it and I do like the brothers working together...I think the show is better when they do this, period.

[rue721]

I know that is what Dean called himself but it's not really true. And it's driving me crazy that the show is not following up on that it's not about Dean's rage. They keep trying to tie it Dean's emotional state of being but when he was dying in the s9 finale he wasn't dying because he was a rage monster, he was dying because the Mark wanted him to kill. And that seems to be getting dropped in favor of all this other stuff that we , so far, anyway know it's never been about.

 

I agree  with your 2nd paragraph. And I wish the show had just never gone down these other parallels....

 

IA that the Mark itself is poisoning him, and it's not Dean's emotions that are driving this bloodlust. But I think that Dean's emotions are important in terms of him being able to maintain some hope -- enough hope to keep fighting (for himself, I mean) -- rather than just resigning himself to becoming a monster or, at best, dead. I don't think that his emotions are what make him kill, but I think that his emotions are what will help him hold onto his humanity/who he is as a person (which is *not* just a bloodthirsty killer).

 

I think it was important for both Dean and Sam to be reminded of who Dean is and the potential he had/has -- the best case scenario of what they should be shooting for (i.e., what if Dean still has the potential to be a good person, a hero, *himself* again, etc) rather than the worst case scenario that they've been focusing on (i.e., what if Dean is doomed to be a demon, a monster, etc).

 

I don't know that Sam would really have refused to provide de-aged!Dean with booze.  They were on their way to rescue Tina, so there was time to talk and joke about it, but not to actually get some (or refuse to do so).    I think it's rare that Sam manages to block Dean from much..

 

True, but he also made that joke about how Dean can get it himself in about seven years. I don't think that Sam is ever going to *boss* Dean, that's just not how their relationship is imo. But I did like that Sam just vetoed that out of hand, like how he just said that he'd better drive. Mostly because I was happy to hear Sam speak up. Idk, I thought that was frank in a way that's comparable to Dean just flat out joking about being a functional alcoholic. Neither of them were dropping truth bombs everywhere, but they were "real" about what was going on, they weren't glossing over things and pretending.

 

Just as a side note, something that I really loved about this episode was how just generally kind people were, and I know that nobody is watching an action/horror show for "senseless acts of kindness," but imo it really changes the tone when you get to see the characters being kind (to everybody but monsters!). I liked Sam telling Dean they didn't have to split up at the bar if he didn't want, Dean and Tina making friends, Dean telling Tina things would be OK (and their friendship as teens in general), Dean picking up that old woman's motel key, Sam and Dean saving a person in trouble (rather than "just" killing a monster), Sam and Dean seeming to enjoy each others' company and genuinely like each other as friends (not just love each other as brothers), etc.

 

I actually didn't like Sam throwing the bartender against the bar, because imo it was way too rough -- I get why it was included, but that kind of thing is off-putting to me. Idk, scenes like that, I always imagine being the one whose head is getting thrown into the bar by this 6'5 super fit man or whatever "interrogation" tactic is happening and it gets me thinking -- these guys are freaking SCARY. They do have to be scary, a big part of their lives is dealing with the fact that they're scary and how scary is "too" scary, etc, so in theory I'm basically fine with those scenes -- but I still always hate watching them. Not to mention that in a practical sense, I don't think that manhandling somebody and making them hate you is a good way to get true information from them, but whatever. (Win more flies with honey, Sam :P).

[catrox14]

 

They do have to be scary, a big part of their lives is dealing with the fact that they're scary and how scary is "too" scary, etc, so in theory I'm basically fine with those scenes -- but I still always hate watching them. Not to mention that in a practical sense, I don't think that manhandling somebody and making them hate you is a good way to get true information from them, but whatever. (Win more flies with honey, Sam :P).

 

Torture and violence has almost always worked for the boys except with Crowley.  But I think violence does work because that guy was clearly a lying liar and he was not going to give the info. And when it comes to Dean, Sam is not fucking around anymore. I LOVED it.

[rue721]

Torture and violence has almost always worked for the boys except with Crowley.  But I think violence does work because that guy was clearly a lying liar and he was not going to give the info. And when it comes to Dean, Sam is not fucking around anymore. I LOVED it.

 

Yeah, I get why it was there. Show Sam being scary because he was going to be damseled later, show how desperate Sam is, make it feel like time is of the essence, etc. And in general, this show always goes with the idea that as soon as someone is thoroughly pissed off at you because you're acting like a psychotic asshole, he's just going to start spilling the truth all over the place -- so, fine. Plus, eh. I think I'm probably way on the extreme side of *not* liking macho stuff, just because I feel like I'm practically marinating in macho douchebags all the time. My patience for macho has worn perilously thin. This is probably a result of spending too much time in sports bars NOT drinking, lol. Oh, speaking of! I have a second interview this Monday (yay!) and the guy interviewing me, his name is apparently Cain. Not his last name, either? LOL fingers crossed that it goes better for me than it did for Dean. :P

[Zanne]

Tina's not really a teenage girl, though, she's an adult woman in a teenaged body.  But dealing with Tina isn't at all like dealing with Claire or even Cas, imo. She's not a kid or a naif.

 

I don't think having an adult brain/experience negates the fact she's in a 14 year old body. Her adult brain had her trapped in a witch's basement for several days. It never got her out of there. If it were for just a week maybe it would be fine, but not for life. She admitted to having debt and three ex-husbands. She probably has a job. When her bills go unpaid and she doesn't show up for work, someone is going to start looking for her. That immediately knocks out her own ID and bank accounts for her own use. I suppose she could have emptied out her accounts through an ATM, but that would only make investigators more curious when they start looking. She can't open a bank account without parental permission so now she has to carry all that theoretical money with her, which is asking for trouble. She can't get a job because she's underage and now can't use her ID or SSN. She hasn't graduated high school or college in her new life, so even if she could get a job, it wouldn't pay more than minimum wage. If she does get in a situation, she can't go the police because, again, who is this girl on the road by herself? Where are her parents? She's much smaller and slighter which makes sheer physical overpowering more likely. And, be honest, bad things happen to those who look weak when they are living on the streets, especially kids. It doesn't matter if she has an adult's mind. To the rest of the world, she has a child's body and she is a child. So what if she can discourse on the current goings on in the Middle East or knows how to make a sloe gin fizz. Sure, the Boys could have wizarded some emancipation documents to say she is in charge of her own life, but they barely gave her the change in their pockets before shoving her on the bus. All they needed to do was say they made her some new ID and background documents and that there was a nice lady named Jody she could drop by if she needed a place to crash, and then they wouldn't have looked like such heartless morons. This show is probably going to make Tina and Claire the center of a new potential spin-off..."Two young girls touched by the supernatural, and anyone with $20 since two dumb hunters and an angel left them to wander the roads with no support and they need money for a place to sleep and some food. Yay!"

[Lemuria]

I enjoyed this ep way more than I thought I would.  Dylan Everett did a great job and I really liked Sam in this episode.  I've liked Sam's attitude and actions toward Dean very much this season, but I still felt that there needed to be some recognition of the damage that his words in The Purge did to Dean, trashing Dean's whole life and character, but I'd thinking that we were never going to get one.  The "pulled a Dean Winchester" was, I think, as close as we'll get:  it was Sam's way of negating his telling Dean that Dean only sacrifices if he doesn't get hurt, because this was a clear instance of Dean putting others' lives ahead of his own life/happiness/wellbeing when he took the Mark back.  And I liked that Sam stopped Dean from apologizing.  I like Sam more at this point than I have in years.

 

Some posters here and elsewhere have compared Soulless Sam to MoC Dean.  I think there's a huge difference.  Soulless Sam may not have been 100% of Sam but he was 100% Sam, all Sam's worst qualities, traits and characteristics.  MoC Dean, otoh, is not just Dean.  He's being acted upon by a powerful outside force.  The Mark may acting on some of Dean's darker qualities--and I think the Charlie ep was telling us that everyone, even quirky, cute Charlie (and no, I'm not a great Charlie fan) had a dark side--but it's still driving Dean to do things he wouldn't do without the Mark's influence.

 

I didn't think Dean was really saying he was a functional alcoholic but responding to the insult that being called a drunk is, with a humorous riposte that implied he was more high-class than that--I saw a post elsewhere that made this point.  The poster equated it to someone responding to being called a mother-f****r by saying that he preferred mater violator.  The poster noted that he was most likely not saying that he screwed his mom. 

 

My problem with Dean being any kind of alcoholic is that we've seen him go too long--include the recent healthy living stretch of time, which has to be at least at 2 or more weeks--without showing any effects.  Basically, what the show has been showing us is that he can drink or not drink without having any particular withdrawal symptoms, which in turn suggest he's not addicted to alcohol.  Is he a heavy drinker?  Damn straight (and I do wish he'd drink less), but as someone pointed out in this thread, so is/was pretty much every hunter we've met.  I guess I seem him more as someone who can really hold his liquor, rather than an alcoholic.

 

Last but not least, a post here called Dean "middle-aged."  Hey, he's only 36!  That might have been middle-aged in the 1820's but not anymore!  LOL

[supposebly]

Well, if we count hell years, Dean is actually 76. Way past middle age.

[Pete Martell]

I wish they'd said, but I just kind of assumed Dean and Sam got Tina a new ID/name/SSN.

[ItsABear]

I don't think having an adult brain/experience negates the fact she's in a 14 year old body. Her adult brain had her trapped in a witch's basement for several days. It never got her out of there. If it were for just a week maybe it would be fine, but not for life. She admitted to having debt and three ex-husbands. She probably has a job. When her bills go unpaid and she doesn't show up for work, someone is going to start looking for her. That immediately knocks out her own ID and bank accounts for her own use. I suppose she could have emptied out her accounts through an ATM, but that would only make investigators more curious when they start looking. She can't open a bank account without parental permission so now she has to carry all that theoretical money with her, which is asking for trouble. She can't get a job because she's underage and now can't use her ID or SSN. She hasn't graduated high school or college in her new life, so even if she could get a job, it wouldn't pay more than minimum wage. If she does get in a situation, she can't go the police because, again, who is this girl on the road by herself? Where are her parents? She's much smaller and slighter which makes sheer physical overpowering more likely. And, be honest, bad things happen to those who look weak when they are living on the streets, especially kids. It doesn't matter if she has an adult's mind. To the rest of the world, she has a child's body and she is a child. So what if she can discourse on the current goings on in the Middle East or knows how to make a sloe gin fizz.

I think there is a big difference having an adult brain versus a teenaged one.  She will understand the ways of the world in a way a teenager won't.  I think of some of the dumb mistakes I made when I was younger, trusting people who should never have been trusted, wasting time and money on things that were not really in my best interest.  If I were to have to do it all over again (and I wouldn't go back to being a teenager no matter what!) I would never make those mistakes.  Tina has all the benefit of her years of experience.   

 

But I do wish there had been a throw away line about a new ID for her.  That would have been so simple.

[DittyDotDot]

Oh my Chuck, I feel so ashamed of myself. I totally dropped the ball with my Bizarro tendencies...Bizarro Swap Meat, y'all. Hee!

 

Some posters here and elsewhere have compared Soulless Sam to MoC Dean.  I think there's a huge difference.  Soulless Sam may not have been 100% of Sam but he was 100% Sam, all Sam's worst qualities, traits and characteristics.  MoC Dean, otoh, is not just Dean.  He's being acted upon by a powerful outside force.  The Mark may acting on some of Dean's darker qualities--and I think the Charlie ep was telling us that everyone, even quirky, cute Charlie (and no, I'm not a great Charlie fan) had a dark side--but it's still driving Dean to do things he wouldn't do without the Mark's influence.

 

Personally, I think the MoC Dean is more apt to demon-blood-sucking Sam; I'd equate Soulless Sam more to Demon Dean. It's not perfect--Sam didn't need to drink the demon blood, he chose to; the MoC isn't something Dean can just take away. But, the demon blood was a part of Sam since he was six months old and what it did to Sam seems more apt to what the Mark is currently doing to Dean, IMO. I'd say Demon Dean and Soulless Sam were more similar in that they were still themselves, but the worst version of themselves.

[DittyDotDot]

Lemuria, on 04 Feb 2015 - 9:58 PM, said:

My problem with Dean being any kind of alcoholic is that we've seen him go too long--include the recent healthy living stretch of time, which has to be at least at 2 or more weeks--without showing any effects.  Basically, what the show has been showing us is that he can drink or not drink without having any particular withdrawal symptoms, which in turn suggest he's not addicted to alcohol.  Is he a heavy drinker?  Damn straight (and I do wish he'd drink less), but as someone pointed out in this thread, so is/was pretty much every hunter we've met.  I guess I seem him more as someone who can really hold his liquor, rather than an alcoholic.

 

I'd say Dean was a functioning alcoholic in S4 in the sense that I think he could function because of the alcohol. Since then, I've always thought it was just part of Dean's diet. I don't see him ever jonesing for a drink, but is more of a habit than anything. To me, it's not quite the same thing as addiction since he can also not drink with no ill effects. 

 

So, yeah, I'm not sure why the show is making an issue of this drinking thing now either, other than, the current attitude surrounding alcoholism is anyone who drinks regularly must be a drunk and supposedly makes for good drama. I think the show is, once again, trying to use it to look cool and edgy. What's funny is, they have a perfect opportunity to take different look at alcoholism with Dean because he's not the typical alcoholic. Functioning alcoholics aren't necessarily falling-down drunks like TV currently likes to portray them, IMO. I grew up around a few that had varying levels of functioning.

 

Dean reminds me of a friend's father who had a rough time in Vietnam and an explosive temper. He started drinking to dull his memories and take the edge off. But, he still got up everyday at the crack of dawn, worked his farm, raised a family and was an active member of the community--more or less, an all around average and decent guy--and for the most part, people weren't even aware he was constantly buzzed.  I'm just not sure he could've functioned in society all those years without the alcohol.  So, if they actually wanted to be edgy, they should use it to explore a different side of alcoholism. Eh, maybe they'll get there in the end, but right now, it feels very surface to me.

Edited February 5, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Altered Reality]

This was much better than I was expecting.  Many kudos to Dylan Everett, he did a very good job with a fairly difficult part.

 

Much of what I would have to say has been discussed already, but I did have a couple of thoughts.

 

First, here they say this is Dean at 14, which messes completely with Dean's age as presented in Bad Boys.  But that's okay because I never bought Dean as being 16 in that episode, in my head he was 14 not 16. This matches up with After School Special better anyway.  I could accept the changes in Dean (both the physical and the increased confidence) if they'd happened over several years, not a single year as it would have to be if Dean was 16 in Bad Boys and 17 in After School Special (and he really can't be older than 17 and still stuck in high school).

 

The witch, was she supposed to be Gretel?  I wondered about that (there was just something about how she said "I never made Hansel do anything"). When I checked IMDB that's the name they've listed for the character, but well, it wouldn't be the first time IMDB got things wrong.

 

Final thought, could someone please hold Sam down and cut his hair?  Yeesh!

[catrox14]

Sam's hair:

 

I thought his hair looked good in s8 and most of s9 towards the end even if super Loreal ad. But it fell nicely. Except in Mother's Little Helper when it was about as That Girl as it could be. But this year...I don't know what the hell is going on with it. If they cut an inch it will look like Prince Valiant without the bangs...no no no.  if they cut two inches he'll need some bangs but that would look too young for him now and probably too hipster douchey.  So IMO, it needs to grow about an  inch and then maybe that goofy That Girl flip will ease up and and then it will just be lovely flowing locks.  

Edited February 5, 2015 by catrox14

[Altered Reality]

Sam's hair:

 

I thought his hair looked good in s8 and most of s9 towards the end even if super Loreal ad. But it fell nicely. Except in Mother's Little Helper when it was about as That Girl as it could be. But this year...I don't know what the hell is going on with it. If they cut an inch it will look like Prince Valiant without the bangs...no no no.  if they cut two inches he'll need some bangs but that would look too young for him now and probably too hipster douchey.  So IMO, it needs to grow about an  inch and then maybe that goofy That Girl flip will ease up and and then it will just be lovely flowing locks.  

It did look better in s8 and s9, but I still don't like the longer hair.  To me it just seems wrong for the character.  This is a guy who spends a fair bit of his life in knock down, all in, dirty fights.  Long hair is a disadvantage in such situations, it gives your opponent something to grab onto (and hair pulling hurts - disproportionately).  Now, I don't know how you'd style his hair, I don't think you'd want something that looks like his brother's hair, but I don't think I should be thinking about braiding it either ;D   Of course, MMV!

[catrox14]

LOL. Oh it's totally impractical being this long, but there is a real life reason and that is the network won't let Jensen grow his hair too long and they won't let Jared cut his.   I just hope they give it some control.

 

That said, I think Jared is look much healthier now.  Which is a good thing. 

[ItsABear]

I like Sam's hair about an inch or two longer, honestly.  Right now it looks odd.  At this length, he'd need some layers.

 

Is it really the network that won't let them change their hair styles?

[catrox14]

Yup. Jensen and Jared have mentioned it several times in cons that they are bound by that. The longest Dean's hair has been is probably as Demon!Dean and that was mostly length on the top. 

[Altered Reality]

Yup. Jensen and Jared have mentioned it several times in cons that they are bound by that. The longest Dean's hair has been is probably as Demon!Dean and that was mostly length on the top. 

Well, if they are going to insist on Jared's hair being long, they should go ahead and have him grow it out enough so he could tie it back (at least some of the time).  It'd be a whole lot distracting that way!

 

I do have to wonder about the why of this though?  Do they think if the boys have similar hair styles we'll confuse them or something? Not bloody likely!

[catrox14]

That's exactly the reason. Seriously. They want the audience to discern between Sam and Dean and apparently it's the hair that makes the difference...versus you know the 4 inches of height difference and that they don't really look like brothers at all. 

[SueB]

Jensen joked that the entire reason Supernatural was renewed for S10 was because of Sam's hair. Except for the Marlo Thomas flip in Mothers Little Helper. I've always liked Sam's hair at whatever length. I'm perfectly fine with it right as it was last episode.

[Altered Reality]

That's exactly the reason. Seriously. They want the audience to discern between Sam and Dean and apparently it's the hair that makes the difference...versus you know the 4 inches of height difference and that they don't really look like brothers at all. 

Oh man!  That deserves an eye roll of epic proportions.  Guess the studio execs have a low opinion of our intelligence.  That's okay, I have a much lower one of theirs.

[ItsABear]

That's exactly the reason. Seriously. They want the audience to discern between Sam and Dean and apparently it's the hair that makes the difference...versus you know the 4 inches of height difference and that they don't really look like brothers at all. 

 

That is ridiculous! I know lots of guys that have the same hair style and I'm somehow miraculously able to tell them apart.  Do they really think the audience, after 10 seasons, is that dumb?  I guess they're lucky that neither of them started going bald.  But I guess we'd be able to tell them apart if one had no hair.