S05.E03: Episode Three

[SusanSunflower]

Tom asserted that his daughter was Irish, and should be "Catholic, like her father". Robert insisted he felt it would not help her to be baptised into a church other than the Church of England, though he was more motivated by his own traditions (as there had not been a Catholic Crawley since the Reformation) and a desire to have a greater influence over her upbringing.

-- http://downtonabbey.wikia.com/wiki/Miss_Sybil_Branson

 

fixing odd format problem:  Fellowes has avoided religion scruptulously, only touch that I remember was Sybbie's baptism. Possibly why Tom and Sybbie's wedding occurred off-camera

Having Cora be 100% Jewish would have raised a lot of questions about her being "suitable" ... half-Jewish, father's side, new money ... not (so much) a problem, but it would have been mentioned.  Tongues might not have wagged, but certain invitations might not have been made ... 

 

wondered about that with Mary's need of Anna's help ... Since none of the Grantham's appears religious except when an alternative is suggested, I'm guessing it didn't factor for Mary but might have for Anna.  Wiki says: 

 

The Anglican Communion gave approval for birth control in some circumstances at the 1930 Lambeth Conference. At the 1958 Lambeth Conference it was stated that the responsibility for deciding upon the number and frequency of children was laid by God upon the consciences of parents "in such ways as are acceptable to husband and wife"

Edited January 25, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[Andorra]

Yes for purposes of antisemitism or exclusion nobody cares at all which side you're descended from.

Frankly, I cal bs on Fellowes for not revealing that a little sooner though most of us deduced to ages ago.

 

There was a scene in S3 where it was revealed, but the scene got cut. Since Fellows is not the one responsible for the cuts, I think we must say it's not completely his fault then.

[RealityTVSmack]

Laughed myself silly! Those one liners of cast members sure lighten it up. My stand alone favorite line from this episode. What did you think?

Edited January 26, 2015 by RealityTVSmack

[lucindabelle]

Well Fellowes tongue bathes the Graham's so much he has mary feel no racism and now apparently they don't care if people are Jewish ever. Which considering how many aristocrats were sympathetic to the nazis is a little hard to believe.

I don't think Cora should have been raised Jewish as that would have been REALLY impossible to believe, but if the references could be missing with one scene than obviously followed didn't do his job, it's too big a deal to reduce to one scene.

It's a little weird because they've kidn of even presenting Shirley MacLaine as if s he's Jewish too, which makessut no sense whatsoever.

I think people tend to gloss over just what a big big deal this was. The film Gentlemans agreement came out in 1947 and that was just looking at prejudice in Connecticut. Fellowes is dreaming. Just dreaming. Hellts still Church of England in the UK as a state religion and antisemitism is still a rather prevalent thing ere (now under the guide of anti Zionism).

I grew up in town which has in it's original charter that homes could not be sold to Jews (of course, illegal, but for most of my childhood you just didn't see Jews in certain areas)

So the notion that Cora could be half Jewish and it would never ever come up except one scene in season three... Which frankly should have been in season one.ll and get left on the cutting room floor is absurd.

Judaim is not just a religion it's a tribe, and they made a big enough deal out of sybbies baptism (though apparently nobody ever goes to mass..

We've heard tons about Cora's being American,

It's wishful thinking that she could have been American and fully half Jewish when she got married at the turn of the century and it never, ever, ever came up... And that she speaks of it so lightly to an acquaintance. It's bizarre and rather insulting.

But yeah, this is the Fellowes who had mary basically say she wouldn't mind if the times were different if rose married a black man. When she would in all likelihood gone right on minding until, maybe, yesterday. Maybe.

Edited January 26, 2015 by lucindabelle

[Andorra]

 

It's a little weird because they've kidn of even presenting Shirley MacLaine as if s he's Jewish too, which makessut no sense whatsoever.

 

I've read that a few times now and I'm curious: What is "Jewish" about Martha?

 

I'm not American and being German I don't know many Jews (not so surprisingly there're not many Jews living in Germany any more). The only Jew I ever met was a professor who lived in Tel Aviv and did a guest reading at my university.

[ZoloftBlob]

I think it was the "Levinson" that was Jewish, and not the "Martha"

[Andorra]

No, it's not the name, people always say that Shirley McLaine "plays" her "Jewish". How do you play someone Jewish??

Edited January 26, 2015 by Andorra

[RedHawk]

If the Grand Hotel Liverpool was as Grand as it seems, they probably had a salon on-site where Mary could get her hair pinned, or even have a stylist sent to her room.

 

Some fine hotels still have salons onsite, and a combo butler/valet you can call to unpack your bags, iron your clothes, clean your shoes, etc. I imagine the hotel where Mary stayed had female staff members who could repair tears in dresses, fix damage to hats, and help ladies dress or arrange their hair.

Edited January 26, 2015 by RedHawk

[SusanSunflower]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotypes_of_Jews

 

IMHO, it's hard to distinguish Jewish stereotyping here with so much American stereotyping overlay. While I didn't see or feel it, but I did wonder once or twice -- actually wrt Cora's apparent coldness towards and distancing from her mother, which I don't remember being fleshed out. 

[lucindabelle]

I guess I mean Shirley MacLaine is a "stage Jewish" person, as Tom's brother with his drunken fare you well stuff was a "stage Paddy."

 

Yes, stereotypes. She most certainly isn't playing Martha as the WASP type person a Jewish social climber would needed to have wed to get in with the elite. Shirley plays her brash, loud and nearly vulgar.

[Tetraneutron]

According to material that was never released on the show, in the show Bible Cora's dad (Isadore Levinson) was Jewish, her mother, Martha, was Episcopalian, and Cora and Harold were raised in her mother's faith. So Cora's not Jewish, neither halachically or religiously, and she wouldn't see herself that way. In fact, she specifically said to Simon, "My father was Jewish and the money was new."

This is made explicit in later episodes this season.

 

 

Frankly, I cal bs on Fellowes for not revealing that a little sooner though most of us deduced to ages ago.

Well, he did establish her maiden name as Levinson seasons ago. That's about as blatant as you can get. Besides, we are watching a sanitized portrait of the period. If they don't care about an Irish Catholic son in law or a gay employee, (and Mary not reacting to Rose kissing and getting engaged to a black musician) it's reasonable to expect they wouldn't be anti-Semitic. I also don't think there's anything particularly "Jewish" in how Shirley MacLaine plays Martha. Could someone explain specifically how they saw it that way? "Brash, loud, and nearly vulgar" was how they saw ALL Americans. She's not especially interested in money, she's not cheap, she has manners when she wants to. I didn't see anything of crude Jewish stereotypes in her portrayal.

 

It's worth considering that aristocrats probably were more sanguine about Judaism from Americans. The stereotypes were somewhat similar after all, and once you're already trading in status and breeding for money, why not go in all the way with it?

Later this season we see a Jewish Peer

Cora alluded to that when she said her mother thought she'd have a better chance of marrying in England rather than America. In America she'd be half-Jewish with new money and thus looked down on. But to the English even the oldest, WASPiest American is crass new money so what's the difference?

 

 

I just think he missed a huge opportunity. I think he should have explicitly made Cora fully Jewish from the start and explored the implications that that would have within the family.

I think in those days, if you marry a titled aristocrat, especially as a woman, you take on their traditions. This was not the era of Chanukiah next to the Christmas tree. Especially Cora, who seems to have fully embraced the world she married into. She doesn't care when her daughters and husband insult her country of origin all the time.

Edited January 26, 2015 by Obviously

[lucindabelle]

Shirley MacLaine is playing a stereotype of new money Jewish. NOT an Episcopalian.

 

and if you think there was no antisemitism in England-- think again. What is true is that the peers were in more desperate need of influxes of cash.

But it's HARDLY the case that Jews were somehow "accepted" in Englihs society in 1900 in a way they weren't back home. Quite the opposite.

 

I don't find it reasonable that they would have no prejudices at all, but blatant, and ahistorical, retrofitting. Even Oscar Wilde and Charles Dickens used antisemtiic stereotypes in their writings and neither was in any way actually antisemitic.

 

Hell, Tom Stoppard's adopted father recently asked him to change his name when Stoppard realized his parents were both Jewish and wrote about it.

 

I find the we don't care if you are gay or black just as ridiculous and ahistorical. Oscar Wilde's name was still not printed on books during this period. Donk's "oh if I'd screamed in boarding school" has zero to do with the period whatsoever. If anything the people screaming most loudly against perversions were then (as they are now) the very people who'd had homosexual experiences.

 

Totally agree that Cora wouldn't think of herself as Jewish. But the world would, which is my point.

 

I've read a lot of literature from this period and have an AM in English and I find the historical retrofitting insulting to my intelligence.

 

As for the name Levinson being "blatanty," no way. Levi and Cohen are Jewish names but derivates not necessrily at all. Ceorge Cohan wasn't Jewish. There was a Rosenberg in Hitler's cabinet. And for all we knew, Levinson himself was not Jewish.

 

It's just Fellowes being weaselly. I'd love to believe (since I am Jewish) that Jews could just swan around in English society but it wasn't true then and wasn't for many, many years to come. And yes I know about Rothschild and Disraeli.

And yes I know about Jennie Jerome. Whose father changed his name from Jacoson. Now we know that no, Jennie Jerome wasn't Jewish.

 

http://www.henrymakow.com/englands_jewish_aristocracy.html

 

quotes L.G. Pine, editor of Burke's Peerage:

 

Pine is outspoken in a way few people are today. He says that for every Rothschild or Disraeli, there were "10 cases of Jewish connection which are now forgotten. The reason is that in many cases "Jewish origin is concealed." (218) - See more at: http://www.henrymakow.com/englands_jewish_aristocracy.html#sthash.z2BYWKsQ.dpuf

 

In other words, for someone to talk openly about Jewish origin would be rare. I just don't buy it.

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, even today in the Charlie Hebdo fall out was the fact that a cartoonist published a blurb about Sarkozy's son converting to Judaism prior to marrying his Jewish bride with the note "He'll go far!" -- when it wasn't true ... somehow this false-factoid was considered humorous because:  Jews, ambition ... I don't know what else. It wasn't true. The family objected, the cartoonist (this was not a cartoon) was asked to apologize and he refused and was fired. Cause was given as antisemitism ... blah blah blah, he sued and it was judged unlawful dismissal and he got money. The fabrication of this "to make a joke" to disparage the President's son's character .... huh?  They do things differently there about a lot of things, but that seemed to me to be extreme reach by the cartoonist to be offensive / witty.

Edited January 26, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[lucindabelle]

Listen, in the USA, good old antisemitism was very much the norm in upper class societies until pretty recently. Even in "Mad Men," remember when Don was asked if any Jews worked there and he said "not on my watch?"

White shoe firms didn't employ Jews. They weren't accepted at the country clubs (they had their own).

It beggars belief that this would go quietly unmentioned. It would have come up.

But there's a lot of wishful thinking throughout... the acceptance of Thomas' proclivities is way worse, considering that the earl is about the age Oscar Wilde would have been had he lived (Wilde died at age 40 in 1900), maybe a bit younger, but old enough by far to have remembered the trial and all its fallout.

It was a big deal.

[Andorra]

You do realize that this show is a rose tinted, nostalgic look on "better times" though, do you?

 

Let's say it with Fellows words himself with an excerpt of the Text Santa sketch that Downton did this Christmas for charity:

 

ROBERT: Excuse me, but none of this makes any sense!

FELLOWS: Don't worry. Nobody cares.

ROBERT: But you run beserk if someone uses the wrong spoon for the wrong dish!

FELLOWS: Of course! That's cutlery!!!

 

 

They put great effort in things like cutlery, manners, how to adress people, what dishes were eaten, clothes etc etc, but they put little to none effort in historical accuracy when it comes to the characters. The Crawleys are way too good and much too tolerant, the servants are way too content, Thomas is way too accepted, Tom shouldn't live there etc etc.

 

It will get  even worse when

they find out what happened to Gregson. The timeline is 1.5 years off in this incident, because they have him killed in the beer hall putch that took place in the fall 1923. He disappeared in April 1922 though, so where was he for 1.5 years? Nobody seems to care.

[PRgal]

I've read that a few times now and I'm curious: What is "Jewish" about Martha?

 

I'm not American and being German I don't know many Jews (not so surprisingly there're not many Jews living in Germany any more). The only Jew I ever met was a professor who lived in Tel Aviv and did a guest reading at my university.

 

Martha is loud and obnoxious.  That's the stereotype of a Jewish (American/Canadian, anyway) woman of a certain age.  Heck, there's even an Instagram account called Crazy Jewish Mom!  Then there's the younger woman stereotype (think Cher from Clueless), which is a whole other story...

[Andorra]

Martha is loud and obnoxious.  That's the stereotype of a Jewish (American/Canadian, anyway) woman of a certain age.  Heck, there's even an Instagram account called Crazy Jewish Mom!  Then there's the younger woman stereotype (think Cher from Clueless), which is a whole other story...

 

So the mother of Nanny Fine would be a sterotypical Jewish "Mom"? And Nanny Fine is, too? That's funny, because we had it in Germany, too and we watched it when we were kids, but I never thought they were stereotypical Jewish, but actually just stereotypical "American".

 

And "Cher" from Clueless is Jewish, too? Again, that's actually our stereotypical "American rich teenager" picture here. Never connected it with Jewish...

Edited January 27, 2015 by Andorra

[SusanSunflower]

JAP -- Jewish American Princess doesn't ring a bell? followed by BAP -- Black American Princess 

 

JAP seen currently in GIRLS -- http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/revolution-of-a-stereotype-what-s-a-jewish-american-princess-today-1.437064

[Llywela]

I've never heard of either of those stereotypes - I'm fairly sure they wouldn't be well recognised at all here in the UK. Loud and obnoxious would be seen as an American stereotype, not a Jewish American stereotype. To us, Cora's mother was a heavily stereotyped 'new money' American, not a Jewish stereotype - and indeed, she isn't Jewish.

 

Different perspectives on different sides of the globe!

Edited January 27, 2015 by Llywela

[PRgal]

So the mother of Nanny Fine would be a sterotypical Jewish "Mom"? And Nanny Fine is, too? That's funny, because we had it in Germany, too and we watched it when we were kids, but I never thought they were stereotypical Jewish, but actually just stereotypical "American".

 

And "Cher" from Clueless is Jewish, too? Again, that's actually our stereotypical "American rich teenager" picture here. Never connected it with Jewish...

 

I haven't seen the Nanny in years and didn't watch it on a regular basis when it was on, but yeah, I guess they would.  As for Cher in Clueless, it's pretty much known that she is - there's a scene on the TV version of the movie that was a flashback (or maybe photo - I don't remember) of her singing "Dreidl, Dreidl" a fairly well-known Chanukah song and I'm 99% sure there have been references to her bat mitzvah.

[Tetraneutron]

Right. The discussion about international stereotypes is interesting, but it's not really relevant since JF has explicitly said Martha isn't Jewish. He didn't conceive of the character that way, writer her that way, hire a Jewish actor to play her, or anything.

[saki]

I've never heard of either of those stereotypes - I'm fairly sure they wouldn't be well recognised at all here in the UK. Loud and obnoxious would be seen as an American stereotype, not a Jewish American stereotype. To us, Cora's mother was a heavily stereotyped 'new money' American, not a Jewish stereotype - and indeed, she isn't Jewish.

 

Different perspectives on different sides of the globe!

 

Totally agree. I love the film Clueless but had never realised that Cher was meant to be Jewish, let alone a Jewish stereotype. Similarly, I had not thought of Cora's mother as a Jewish stereotype at all.

 

 A lot of it is that the American Jewish population is much much more prominent in American public life/arts/culture than the British Jewish population.  I am British and happen to have lots of Jewish friends but that's very unusual - most British people have never met a Jewish person and there really aren't strong stereotypes of them for TV/film.  To the extent that there is a stereotype, I think it's about being clever/intellectual rather than rich - see, for instance, Ed Milliband.  Actually, thinking of the Milibands reminds me that there's a strong tradition of Jews being involved in trade unions/socialism in the UK, which is almost exactly opposite to the American rich capitalist stereotype.

[lucindabelle]

I totally believe British people might not know many Jewish people though there are of course British Jews. The year I spent there was astonishing to me in that regard and I've been annoyed time and time again by the well meaning but ridiculous portrayals of Jews in PBS shows, one of e worst was call the midwife in which anholocaut survivor not only talks about "escaping the ghetto" (wrong. You'd say escaping the camps or the nazis) but somehow escaped with all of her old photos and possessions (weong again) and when the baby was born they put. Red string on it (NO! Modern kabbalistic practice that has zero to do with Ashkenazic Judaism!)

There is a fair bit of British antisemitism as we speak, often shielding itself as antizionist.

Back to downtonnAbbey, yes these stereotypes exist and are recognizable.

And while Fellowes may not have hired MacLaine to do that stereotype MacLaine, who lived innNy, and played on Broadway, DOES KNOW what the stereotype is and played it to a hilt. SHE knew what she was doing. If he didn't and allowed it that just makes him a crummy director,

So it's NOT irrelevant at all. And whether or not you recognize the stereotyoes is also irrelevant to their being there in clueless, girls, the nanny, etc.

It makes no sense. A social climbing Jewish man would marry the highest class old money woman he could.

And yes I'm aware of the "ugly American" stereotype too, because many times someone would assume I as beitish and say something nasty about an American who had just gotten on the tube.

It must kill some English people to remember that Emily Dickinson was American.

ETA: wrong, it is not exactly the opposite. Amazingly, jews can be all things at once; antisemites hate them as both capitalists AND socialists. Emma Goldman was Jewish. My grandparents are buried in the workmans circle cemetery and many many Jews were targeted by the blacklists for having attended socialist and communist meetings.

This is a pretty hot topic for those of us who it affects. I suspect MANY English Jews doubt they're perceived as just being intellectual, with no stigma. I really think people not in a minority can't possibly imagine how the people in that minority feel.

Aristocratic antisemitism was so casual as t be unnoticeable, lots of Jews went to ston and harrow right? Daily chapel would be nooooo problem at all. Even in the 1980s when I was there it just wasn't a normal thing to be Jewish people thought it was exotic if not suspicious. It's not about population. There are plenty of Jews in London. But I had trouble finding a box of matzah.

It was easier in Alabama. No lie.

TL, DR: Fellowes might not have known MacLaine was playing a stereotype of a brazen Jewish woman, but MacLaine surely knew. Her performance reads that way to American eyes.

Suspect British Jews see stereotypes about them differently than non-Jews.

Edited February 2, 2015 by lucindabelle

[PRgal]

This is a pretty hot topic for those of us who it affects. I suspect MANY English Jews doubt they're perceived as just being intellectual, with no stigma. I really think people not in a minority can't possibly imagine how the people in that minority feel.

 

 

Or even minorities not in the same minority group.  A while back, I tried explaining the differences between racism towards East Asians and blacks to a black woman.  She was one of those "minorities are minorities and we all experience it the same way" types that I thought only came from (usually older - as in over 50) white Protestants (and often women). 

 

Aristocratic antisemitism was so casual as t be unnoticeable, lots of Jews went to ston and harrow right? Daily chapel would be nooooo problem at all. Even in the 1980s when I was there it just wasn't a normal thing to be Jewish people thought it was exotic if not suspicious. It's not about population.

 

 

I don't know how the Jewish (or Muslim) girls felt about chapel at my school, but regardless of religion, a good number slept (how they did so without getting caught, I DO NOT KNOW).  I know that there were few non-Christians in the choir.  The only ones who were vocal about chapel were self-proclaimed atheists.

 

There are plenty of Jews in London. But I had trouble finding a box of matzah.

It was easier in Alabama. No lie.

 

Even around Passover? WOW.  Then again, I live in Toronto and in a higher income area (yeah, I know, stereotype).  One of the (relatively smallish, compared to the suburbs) supermarkets has a kosher section, though I don't seem to notice it at Whole Foods. 

Edited February 2, 2015 by PRgal

[photo fox]

Guys, this is an all-purpose reminder to bring this back to the episode we're supposed to be discussing. The conversation is really interesting, but it's not really about Episode 3 anymore. Past seasons would be a good fit, I think.

Cheers!

[lucindabelle]

You're right, thanks for that. Back to the episode, why are we learning this now? Why is she telling the art guy?

Edited February 2, 2015 by lucindabelle

[Andorra]

Because two episodes later -

as we have seen - Rose meets a Jewish man.