Relationships: Speed Dating

[Trini]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Am I the only one who wasn't bothered by the Caitlin and Barry scene?

Well, I was bothered; but not because of a supposed 'ship that isn't a thing, was never a thing, and will never be a thing on the show.

First, the whole storyline in general was being stretched out to have Panabaker in as many episodes as possible; even though "Caitlin leaves" should have only taken one episode. Plus, her arc doesn't connect to the other urgent arcs, so it just feels like wasted time when they cut back to her. (I admit I'm biased, I'm not a fan of the character/s.)

And then I'm annoyed with it in the context of the episode, since I would have rather seen more scenes from the other more important/urgent plots.

If they had to have this filler 'goodbye' plot, I would have rather it be mainly Cisco and Caitlin, since that's her oldest and best friend. Having it just be Barry was odd.  I think the main point (besides 'bye DP') of that scene was the speech to Barry - but it would have made more sense coming from Joe or Cecile.

And yes, Caitlin leaving behind Barry in her apartment was a writing/directing FAIL. DP could only be on one set??

[phoenics]

9 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Am I the only one who wasn't bothered by the Caitlin and Barry scene? 

If you think every scene B and C share is ship bait, it actually fuels those shippers into thinking their crackship has a chance. It actually fuels them into believing WestAllen fans are threatened by their ship. 

I'm not threatened by their crackship - I'm threatened by white supremacy that always works to restore the white status quo.

There are SO many shows where that happened, even after we thought the shows had finally gotten it together: Sleepy Hollow, Twisted, Krypton, Titans, Roswell, NM.

The reason is grounded in the points I made - about how the writing has specifically sought to elevate Caitlin in the writing to being almost as important to Barry as Iris - I gave examples - when that makes NO sense narratively.

If Iris West was played by a white woman - I wouldn't have any of these fears - but I've been burned so many times, how could I not be suspicious when I see manipulative writing/directing?

Edited May 15, 2020 by phoenics

[Starry]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Am I the only one who wasn't bothered by the Caitlin and Barry scene? When I saw it, I knew it was a goodbye scene and nothing more. 

I don't think anyone thought it was going to be anything more than a goodbye scene. Of course Barry and Caitlin weren't going to make out and confess their love for each other right before she left but that's not the point because baiting a couple is not about being "obvious". It's either about coming up with AU scenarios where the crackship is canon or using writing, directing and editing tricks that leave the impression that there's something more going on there even though nothing will come out of it and the overall storyline won't be impacted.

In my opinion that scene was bait because of the slow motion ( an editing trick that gets mostly used to imply romance ) and because of how it was framed with Barry being left behind in Caitlin's apartment for a "look back" shot.

That's the only time I thought they were baiting SB this season. And I already said that from a writing/storyline perspective Frost and Ralph were given more scenes that could mean something more than friendship if they ever wanted to go there.

 

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

If you're bothered by slow motion and etc, that means you were looking for that stuff.

I wasn't looking for it. It's the other way around. That stuff was blatant and put in there to beg me to see chemistry and potential.

 

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

If you think every scene B and C share is ship bait, it actually fuels those shippers into thinking their crackship has a chance. It actually fuels them into believing WestAllen fans are threatened by their ship.

What fuels those shippers into thinking their crackship has a chance is the show baiting them, not what WestAllen fans think. Let's not blame us when it's the writers that give ( gave ) them false hope.

And I don't think every Barry and Caitlin scene is bait, just that one. The last part to be specific, not even the entire scene.

And I have reasons to be threatened. Not about SB ever happening but about the fact that these writers would rather give crackshippers a "bait" goodbye scene ( and DP is not even gone for good ) than give the canon couple more romance moments. I am threatened because they are going to great lengths to present Caitlin Frost as this badass hero who's also vulnerable and gets saved by Barry and comforted/praised by the entire team but Iris is written as a SBW who constantly needs to prove she's no damsel in distress and couldn't even cry about her husband dying in Crisis months after her daughter had vanished in her arms.

WestAllen don't have to break up and Barry doesn't have to dump Iris for Caitlin for me to think that these writers are being unfair/shady/racist about my favorite characters and ship.

 

3 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I hate that Cisco didn't get a goodbye scene. If they knew episode 19 was her goodbye episode, why didn't they have Cisco in it? Caitlin is his best friend.

This goes back to my point. Cisco is Caitlin's bestie but he didn't get anything at all let alone a goodbye scene complete with slow motion and a "look back" shot.

[phoenics]

11 minutes ago, Starry said:

I don't think anyone thought it was going to be anything more than a goodbye scene. Of course Barry and Caitlin weren't going to make out and confess their love for each other right before she left but that's not the point because baiting a couple is not about being "obvious". It's either about coming up with AU scenarios where the crackship is canon or using writing, directing and editing tricks that leave the impression that there's something more going on there even though nothing will come out of it and the overall storyline won't be impacted.

In my opinion that scene was bait because of the slow motion ( an editing trick that gets mostly used to imply romance ) and because of how it was framed with Barry being left behind in Caitlin's apartment for a "look back" shot.

That's the only time I thought they were baiting SB this season. And I already said that from a writing/storyline perspective Frost and Ralph were given more scenes that could mean something more than friendship if they ever wanted to go there.

 

I wasn't looking for it. It's the other way around. That stuff was blatant and put in there to beg me to see chemistry and potential.

 

What fuels those shippers into thinking their crackship has a chance is the show baiting them, not what WestAllen fans think. Let's not blame us when it's the writers that give ( gave ) them false hope.

And I don't think every Barry and Caitlin scene is bait, just that one. The last part to be specific, not even the entire scene.

And I have reasons to be threatened. Not about SB ever happening but about the fact that these writers would rather give crackshippers a "bait" goodbye scene ( and DP is not even gone for good ) than give the canon couple more romance moments. I am threatened because they are going to great lengths to present Caitlin Frost as this badass hero who's also vulnerable and gets saved by Barry and comforted/praised by the entire team but Iris is written as a SBW who constantly needs to prove she's no damsel in distress and couldn't even cry about her husband dying in Crisis months after her daughter had vanished in her arms.

WestAllen don't have to break up and Barry doesn't have to dump Iris for Caitlin for me to think that these writers are being unfair/shady/racist about my favorite characters and ship.

 

This goes back to my point. Cisco is Caitlin's bestie but he didn't get anything at all let alone a goodbye scene complete with slow motion and a "look back" shot.

Thank you for this whole post.

What's frustrating to me is that it's clear the writers are being shady about this but the "there's nothing to it!" stuff is making me feel like I'm being gaslit and it's really frustrating.

 

11 minutes ago, Starry said:

And I have reasons to be threatened. Not about SB ever happening but about the fact that these writers would rather give crackshippers a "bait" goodbye scene ( and DP is not even gone for good ) than give the canon couple more romance moments. I am threatened because they are going to great lengths to present Caitlin Frost as this badass hero who's also vulnerable and gets saved by Barry and comforted/praised by the entire team but Iris is written as a SBW who constantly needs to prove she's no damsel in distress and couldn't even cry about her husband dying in Crisis months after her daughter had vanished in her arms.

This part in particular is SPOT ON.

Edited May 15, 2020 by phoenics

[Featherhat]

Ok well looking at that scene again to make sure, I'm going to be one of the ones going "I really can't see anything." 

Is it going to be a mirage in the desert for those that want to write fic, argue that of course this means it's true love because Caitlin gave Barry a version of the "Paragon of Love" speech? Yeah. Does that mean the show was deliberately baiting it? No. Is the show secretly sending coded messages to racists via camera angles, no. That's all it is for them, a mirage. If the writers give them false hope it's because they haven't even had crumbs to eat for a long, long time and anything else is a feast. I do think agreeing with some of the most extreme shippers that it was deliberately coded "bait" and the producers support SB just encourages them, that's just the nature of the fandom loop.

I get being worried, I really, really do, both because of history where a show has circled back around to all white main couple and just general shipper angst, especially when WA are separated and have been all 6B, but I've seen shippier moments on Arrowverse shows between doppelgangers of the same person. 😉

This was also to hammer home everyone leaving Barry, his guilt and his messed up head at the moment, which is actually to do with his Siri/Iris angst, nothing to do with her except she's his friend and she's sick. If she was leaving at a different time then he probably wouldn't even notice she'd gone. I also think this was meant to be a bit more sentimental than usual because it was DP leaving because she's having a baby (meta with her "mom" saying she'd take care of them both) and that's partly why the slow mo as well as general Barry angst. It should have been a Cisco moment, but Barry is the star of the show. 

I certainly wish they'd done things a lot differently with WA this season - sooooo many episodes in the mirror was clearly bananas from the start. I might wonder if this was S2 or 3 but not late S6. Or if they'd actually been ex's or ever had anything more than a little romantic bait in S1.

Edited May 15, 2020 by Featherhat

[phoenics]

9 hours ago, Starry said:

Wallace has definitely sidelined Barry and Iris and elevated Team Flash's importance as a result. We've got so little WestAllen it looks like there's been more Barry and Caitlin and OTF even though they didn't get much more than what their fans are used to. But because they've been so stingy with WestAllen the amount of SB and OTF solo scenes bugged.

And it doesn't help that Iris has been stuck in a mirror for the entirety of 6B and Barry's relationship with SirI was mostly strained.

 

I remember that scene where Barry's lying on the couch and talks about watching billions of futures where Iris, Cisco, Caitlin and everyone else die and even though he mouths Cisco's name that part was muted and it sounded like he only says Iris and Caitlin and lumps Cisco in with everyone else. That was weird and completely unnecessary.

And it's disgusting that Caitlin Frost is treated like this badass hero who gets praised for doing the bare minimum but still gets to be saved by Barry while his human wife has to constantly say and prove that she can take care of herself. This seems to be more of a Caitlin thing than a white woman thing because Sue has obnoxiously pointed out that she's no damsel in distress either. Every time Barry and Ralph act like they want to protect Iris and Sue they get pushback. It's not the same with Caitlin Frost and this "delicate flower" shtick has been even more annoying under Wallace's leadership. What has Frost done that warrants so much pampering and ass kissing from the entire cast? I don't remember one instance where she/Caitlin have been totally selfless or put their lives on the line for anyone. Is it Panabaker's permanent deer in headlights facial expression that makes the writers write her character like she's such a delicate little woman in need of protection?

 

That's not happening. That scene was put in there as a parting gift to her fans. It was unnecessary as DP is not leaving for good but I bet that was their intention.

Even if they make Iris evil, the story will still be about WestAllen. It'll be wasted potential, the evil Iris won't get handled with kid gloves like Killer Frost was and there will be team drama and "harmless" Barry and Caitlin scenes forced in-between but WestAllen will stay the main couple.

But I will have to keep an eye on Lauren Barnett. She's a new writer and has written all the episodes with the most "personal" Barry and Caitlin interactions.

I was wondering if there was a common writers behind this nonsense.  I need to see if she has a twitter and if she's giving off any Karen vibes.

[adora721]

5 hours ago, phoenics said:

If Iris West was played by a white woman - I wouldn't have any of these fears - but I've been burned so many times, how could I not be suspicious when I see manipulative writing/directing?

I share your concerns, but there's one thing that gives me hope: Grant Gustin. Grant was the one to go against Barry and Caitlin even dating in the show. He stood firm on this even against the machinations of AJK and DP's attempts to make platonic moments seem romantic.

I don't believe Grant would co-sign a hookup with Caitlin or KF, not even in a drunken, depressed, Iris is gone and I'm in lust, or even a body switch between Cait and Iris situation. Not even Barry's evil time remnant, Savitar, gave Killer Frost a second look when she was trying to flirt with him. 

I use to wonder if they'd have Barry and Cait somehow hook up to make a way for a White, non-multiracial, Bart Allen. But I don't believe that would happen because Grant would be against it.

Even though he's not a perfect ally for Candice on all occasions, I do believe that Grant is an ally for WestAllen's pure relationship. Even if Eddie came back in some form, I don't think Candice would co-sign cheating on Barry either. She'd be emotionally drawn to him or sympathetic, but no cheating.

That's what I'm holding on to so I can save my sanity.

Edited May 15, 2020 by adora721

[BeautifulFlower]

It was only one person, but there is probably others like him. Anyway, they hate the Nash and Allegra angst thing. Yet, they're placing all blame on Allegra. I don't get it. We know why Allegra was angry with Nash. She thought he genuinely cared about her, but it was because she was a doppelganger of a lost loved one. She had every right to be mad. Especially as Nash kept bothering her. He was borderline harassing her. I can't that there are some people who fault Allegra for the drama. Why should she forgive him?

Anyway, I didn't care about the Nash and Allegra relationship. Did anybody care for it?

Edited May 16, 2020 by BeautifulFlower
Added more

[Trini]

'The Flash's 10 Most Romantic WestAllen Moments So Far'

Quote

Though they’ve been separated for a lot of the season, The Flash recently reiterated how integral Barry and Iris’ relationship — collectively known as ‘WestAllen’ by fans — is to the show. Their relationship has grounded The Flash over the last six seasons, keeping the heart of the show intact by growing and developing their story. Besides having to fight metahumans on the daily, the couple has had several first kisses, two proposals, at least three weddings, and have gotten through erased timelines, parallel earths, and meeting their daughter from the future. Barry and Iris are truly the elite of superhero couples.  ...

 

[Trini]

Deleted scene from episode 6.11; I can see why they cut it - it would have made the audience suspicious of 'Iris' too early - but it does explain Barry not finding the note:

 

The episode was full of (Mirror)WestAllen scenes, so I'm not upset about this one being cut. But the show has a history of cutting scenes that are actually important; so I hope they do better in the future.

[Trini]

Definitely someone new running the social media accounts:

 

[ETA:] Bonus:

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Trini

[SevenStars]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

Definitely someone new running the social media accounts:

 

[ETA:] Bonus:

 

I noticed that too. Maybe now CP might start following them again because she is not following them on Twitter and GG is not following them on IG.

[Trini]

'Why The Flash’s Barry and Iris are the Arrowverse’s best couple'

 

 

[Trini]

The social media teams are back on WestAllen; I hope the writers follow through for Season 7.

Snippet from the The Flash panel (*Spoilers* for Season 7):

 

[Trini]

Just wanted to put Eric Wallace's quote about Barry & Iris from FanDome here:

Answering a question about whether Barry/Flash characters trying to imagine a world where things look better is a character flaw:

"What drives his [Barry's] heroism, I feel, is his heart. As we saw in the crossover this year, he's the Paragon of Love. Love is a very powerful thing. Perhaps the most powerful thing in the world. Love and truth, though, should go hand in hand. Barry Allen is leading with love, but looking for the truth. And that's something I personally believe in. And that's something I think we could all maybe follow. So do I think that's a flaw? Oh, no. I think that's the greatest thing in the world.

How great is it that an interracial couple represents the two paragons of what I think are the most important things? Love - and even though he's not the Paragon of Truth, with Crisis, we saw somebody else - Iris is a reporter; her whole job is the truth. So we have this couple, to me, that goes to the world and says to the audience, and says to the kids, again, every week, 'these are the two things that matter most'. Three would be family; love, truth, family.

If you honor those and go out to the world boldly, you are unstoppable. Because the love that you bring is a form of compassion; that compassion will infuse others and perhaps make them act more compassionately. We need more of that in the world. The truth that Iris brings as a reporter - you want to talk about things that I need to see more on television that I plan on doing more on The Flash is, we need more truth. We need people who believe in science. Okay?  Iris can bring that with Team Citizen. And then together, because in the case of Barry and Iris, it's not one plus one equals two, it's one plus one equals three. Together they create something that does not exist; that's Family."

----

Okay, but I need this to be reflected in the story and editing decisions, though.

[cambridgeguy]

I hope no one is expecting a lot of romantic scenes involving kissing, hugging, etc. unless the actors are a couple in real life.  Cant risk your actors spreading Covid to each other.

[Starry]

In one of her Instagram stories Candice said that she talked about the side effects of the pandemic and what it means for scenes that require the actors to make body contact but that part was edited out of the panel.

Less hugging and kissing scenes than usual would be one thing but if the intention is to have the actors not touch at all then just make the virus a part of the story and be done with it because I am pretty much over this show wasting the WestAllen chemistry. Grant and Candice are good at giving each other longing looks.

But they couldn't have picked a worse time to leave Iris in that mirror. There's also another thing but I'll talk about it in the spoiler thread.

The side effects are unfortunate but I really hope they won't even think about doing what they are doing on some shows/soaps.

[Trini]

5 hours ago, Starry said:

In one of her Instagram stories Candice said that she talked about the side effects of the pandemic and what it means for scenes that require the actors to make body contact but that part was edited out of the panel.

...

Here's a tweet about it with a screencap:

 

-----

5 hours ago, Starry said:

The side effects are unfortunate but I really hope they won't even think about doing what they are doing on some shows/soaps.

I don't think this show can do that; at least without it looking bad on one or more levels. However, the thought did cross my mind that they may be able to show two actors closer than they really are with VFX? I'm more than happy to skip next year's Grodd episode if they use the VFX budget to pull it off.

[Starry]

11 hours ago, Trini said:

I don't think this show can do that; at least without it looking bad on one or more levels. However, the thought did cross my mind that they may be able to show two actors closer than they really are with VFX? I'm more than happy to skip next year's Grodd episode if they use the VFX budget to pull it off.

I had the same thought but I also believe they are going to use the VFX budget to mostly fix the problem during fight scenes.

Since they are making sure actors get tested three times a week I hope they can at least film some scenes without social distancing.

I guess there's a silver lining to this (at least for me) and it's no more group chats in STAR Labs. Season 6 did better in that area but they are still inserting Team Flash into WestAllen moments that should be private. If the pandemic could take care of that problem I would be grateful.

[BeautifulFlower]

I haven't read the guidelines in so long. I was under the assumption they can do kissing scenes, but they can't be long. I think they can only have the actors do a quick peck. Or maybe they are only allowed to kiss for 3 seconds. I can't remember, but I do remember reading something about kissing.

[Trini]

Obviously, this list is subjective, but I think it's telling that there isn't a moment from Season 5. Though, I do think they had a few then, but some of them were 'sad' ones.

https://bamsmackpow.com/2020/09/30/the-flash-season-7-barry-and-iris-westallen-best-moments/

 

[Trini]

Came across this article again, but I don't think it was ever posted here: (from 2018, pre-Season 5) 'The Seven Facets of Westallen Love'

Quote

As any Westallen fan – and Grant Gustin, Candice Patton, and Todd Helbing themselves – will tell you, the relationship between Barry Allen and Iris West(-Allen) of The Flash is unique. In a medium that often values drama over strength, love triangles over mutual love and support, they stand apart. They are, indeed, a love story anyone would be lucky to have.

Theirs is also a multi-faceted type of love that has only deepened over the course of the show. In psychology, it is suggested there are seven types of love: philautia (self-love), philia (friendship), ludus (uncommitted love), agape (unselfish concern for the welfare of others), eros (passionate love), storge (parent/child love), and pragma (practical love).  Those who love Westallen know well that they have embodied all seven.  . . .

 

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

Patty was a recurring character but it wouldn't be unusual for a guest star to be upgraded to series regular if they are a hit with the audience and/or TPTB. Kreisberg strikes me as someone who wanted to play with multiple romances involving his leads. He tried it with Caitlin but that didn't work out for a variety of reasons and pulled the same crap with Kara and Winn on Supergirl. I also seem to remember that Oliver had way too many love interests when he was more involved with the show.

I am not sure in how many episodes Patty was supposed to be but the rest of TPTB could have overrun Kreisberg on his decision. They must have also thought it was for the best to end the Patty arc when they did.

True... unless you're Iris. I'm still disappointed that they didn't finish the arc they started with her and Scott - even though it was dumb they made him her boss.

And yeah, they kinda permanently messed up Kara's romantic journey with that crap on Supergirl. With Oliver, I think it made more sense, since "sexy playboy" was an image they wanted to play up. I don't think the typical multiple love interests quite work for Barry, because they were also showing that he was deeply in love with Iris, and for years. Plus, sex appeal wasn't really one of the things they were using to sell the show.

Patty would have had to leave sometime before they started the really going forward with Barry & Iris in the back end of Season 2 anyway. Maybe he got overruled on the timing.

[cambridgeguy]

It's also possible he wanted to make Patty Felicity 2.0.  Original romantic leads don't have the greatest of track records in the Arrowverse (see Laurel Lance and James Olsen) so I do think they were open to the idea of swapping if they really liked another actress.

[ursula]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's also possible he wanted to make Patty Felicity 2.0.  Original romantic leads don't have the greatest of track records in the Arrowverse (see Laurel Lance and James Olsen) so I do think they were open to the idea of swapping if they really liked another actress.

Considering how Iris was written in 2A, I’m positive this was the intention.

[Starry]

On 10/18/2020 at 5:01 PM, Trini said:

True... unless you're Iris. I'm still disappointed that they didn't finish the arc they started with her and Scott - even though it was dumb they made him her boss.

Iris is not the title character but that doesn't mean they shouldn't have put more effort into her relationships. I didn't like how they approached the Scott arc but I believe he should have stayed longer to better flesh out Iris' role as a reporter and her feelings for Barry. I would have liked to see her and Scott go on a date with Iris not being into it because she knew Barry was the man she wanted to be with. We should have gotten more than a throwaway conversation with Caitlin.

They completely dropped the ball with Iris during season 2. Helbing wasn't a good showrunner but I think Iris got better writing and more of a POV around the time WestAllen got married.

 

On 10/18/2020 at 5:01 PM, Trini said:

And yeah, they kinda permanently messed up Kara's romantic journey with that crap on Supergirl. With Oliver, I think it made more sense, since "sexy playboy" was an image they wanted to play up. I don't think the typical multiple love interests quite work for Barry, because they were also showing that he was deeply in love with Iris, and for years. Plus, sex appeal wasn't really one of the things they were using to sell the show.

I think AJK was the only one invested in the multiple love interests thing for Barry. That's why the rest of TPTB didn't bother playing up anything that wasn't WestAllen and didn't fight Kreisberg when he decided to write Patty out after ten episodes only.

With Kara they went from throwing love interests at her to keeping her single for way too long but that's a complaint for the Supergirl forum.

 

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's also possible he wanted to make Patty Felicity 2.0.  Original romantic leads don't have the greatest of track records in the Arrowverse (see Laurel Lance and James Olsen) so I do think they were open to the idea of swapping if they really liked another actress.

That's how he described Patty, Barry's "own Felicity".

[adora721]

On 10/18/2020 at 8:01 AM, Trini said:

True... unless you're Iris. I'm still disappointed that they didn't finish the arc they started with her and Scott - even though it was dumb they made him her boss.

 

Both AJK and Marc G. don't seem to fathom how inappropriate it is for women to date their bosses. It speaks volumes about those two that they saw nothing problematic with Felicity dating Ray or Iris dating Scott. 

[Trini]

I think some people here already know about the Ladies with Gumption podcast (they discuss most of the current DCTV shows, and related news); but for those who don't, they recently did an entire episode on WestAllen, looking at Barry & Iris' relationship through the seasons. I think they did a good job of recapping everything, and pointing out the highs and lows, and what could have been better.

Here's the link to the episode on Podomatic, but they're also on iTunes and a couple other platforms.

[Starry]

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

The same is true for WestAllen, they hammered home destiny even when Iris didn't have a lot of screen time and Barry was dating other people briefly and with some Caitlin teasing. I never saw them attempt to raze the foundations of WA the way they did with Lauriver in 1B and S2 of Arrow despite Patty.

I agree that Barry and Iris were the OTP in season 1 despite Eddie, Linda, the ship teasing with Caitlin and the lack of Iris. But I disagree about season 2 WestAllen. They hammered home destiny only after Patty left because they needed a cheap trick to reintroduce the couple after they had done their best to sideline their connection and even retcon Iris' feelings. Season 2A was when you had characters like Patty refer to Iris as Barry's sister and her never correcting them. It was when Eddie was upgraded to the love of Iris' life when no-one called him that in season 1. Somehow he also became her fiancé even though he never proposed, she never said yes and never wore the engagement ring. I don't think Patty herself was ever written to be Barry's one true love but they absolutely attempted to raze the foundations of WestAllen and only went back to recentering them after the Earth-2 episodes.

Also keep in mind that before the Worlds Finest crossover AJK was gushing over the Barry and Kara chemistry and they are two characters who were never going to get together. Even Mehcad Brooks was talking about Barry hitting on Kara but where were those scenes? Where exactly did Barry hit on Kara? AJK got his actors to lie about scenes and oversell the Superflash dynamic.

It's true that many protagonists have multiple love interests before they settle down with The One but AJK went way overboard in my opinion. I didn't watch Lois and Clark but when OF were broken up I don't remember Oliver's temporary love interest getting more screen time than Felicity. Patty got way more than Iris and that was despite the fact that Iris knew about the Flash and Patty didn't. That's why they were being shady in 2A, not just because Barry got a girlfriend that wasn't Iris.

[Featherhat]

I honestly haven't rewatched S2 in a long time because it was pretty underwhelming in large parts for me. I definitely agree that Iris and CP was done dirty and that a lot of things didn't match up between 2A and 2B but then Iris has often had a problem getting POV, screentime and story on this show, no matter who was the show runner or whether they were full steam ahead with WA or not. 

 

On 11/15/2020 at 5:08 PM, Starry said:

It's true that many protagonists have multiple love interests before they settle down with The One but AJK went way overboard in my opinion. I didn't watch Lois and Clark but when OF were broken up I don't remember Oliver's temporary love interest getting more screen time than Felicity. Patty got way more than Iris and that was despite the fact that Iris knew about the Flash and Patty didn't. That's why they were being shady in 2A, not just because Barry got a girlfriend that wasn't Iris.

Well Sara had a lot more screentime in SB than Felicity (and Laurel for that matter) despite being an obvious stall who they killed off later.  Felicity almost disappeared until the finale in S2 with half a scene in a couple of episodes, so much so that some complain Olicity "came out of nowhere". Ray didn't have more time than Oliver but he monopolized a large amount of Felicity's time and energy that season even though they knew he was a stall who was getting a spin off and he wasn't involved in the team activity or knew Oliver's identity until late. In S5 like with Iris in S2 Felicity had no POV and was there to be on the team and nothing else which lead fans to think the show had abandoned Olicity, but no, they just ignored it whilst they wanted to play with their shiny new toys for a while then went back to it in 5B, having already decided when the wedding was going to be whilst actively writing away from the couple on the show. It's the same with WA in S2 from what I remember. I definitely get why fans were hopping mad and worried, I really do, I just don't think they actually broke the foundations they way they did with Lauriver, even with the sudden retcon "engagement" of Iris when none had been. 

On 11/15/2020 at 5:08 PM, Starry said:

Also keep in mind that before the Worlds Finest crossover AJK was gushing over the Barry and Kara chemistry and they are two characters who were never going to get together. Even Mehcad Brooks was talking about Barry hitting on Kara but where were those scenes? Where exactly did Barry hit on Kara? AJK got his actors to lie about scenes and oversell the Superflash dynamic

They did that again with the "amazing" story of Nazi!Kara and Nazi!Oliver who were not only both going to die but Olicity were getting married that crossover (as well as WA). Yeah they definitely oversold the Superflash flirty dynamic but that wasn't because they desperately trying to opt out of WA it was because it was two leads teaming up and becoming friends they aren't going to go "yeah Barry and Kara are cute but too similar to work and obviously on different shows on different networks so of course no actual dating!" when building hype for a big team up. It's far from the first or last time something like that has been way over sold on TV, let alone on the CW. Once WA were actually dating and Kara was actually on the CW their friendship dynamic was never questioned as romantic again. 

[Starry]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

Well Sara had a lot more screentime in SB than Felicity (and Laurel for that matter) despite being an obvious stall who they killed off later.  Felicity almost disappeared until the finale in S2 with half a scene in a couple of episodes, so much so that some complain Olicity "came out of nowhere". Ray didn't have more time than Oliver but he monopolized a large amount of Felicity's time and energy that season even though they knew he was a stall who was getting a spin off and he wasn't involved in the team activity or knew Oliver's identity until late.

I don't think this is a fair comparison because unlike WestAllen OF weren't the season 1 OTP. Sara and her relationship with Oliver were absolutely used to damage Lauriver even more but OF were just getting started.

Ray monopolizing Felicity's time was definitely a problem but unlike Patty he was being considered for a spin-off. I understand why fans didn't like it and wanted more stories for Felicity alone and for OF together but I can tell they had an actual reason to give Ray so many scenes with her.

 

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

In S5 like with Iris in S2 Felicity had no POV and was there to be on the team and nothing else which lead fans to think the show had abandoned Olicity, but no, they just ignored it whilst they wanted to play with their shiny new toys for a while then went back to it in 5B, having already decided when the wedding was going to be whilst actively writing away from the couple on the show. It's the same with WA in S2 from what I remember. I definitely get why fans were hopping mad and worried, I really do, I just don't think they actually broke the foundations they way they did with Lauriver, even with the sudden retcon "engagement" of Iris when none had been.

I agree I thought it was strange that they weren't writing more shippy content for OF in 5A and I remember fans being frustrated about it (also because in some cases WA got the blame) but their new love interests were barely a blip on the radar. In 2A not only we weren't getting any WestAllen but Iris herself was sidelined while Barry's temporary girlfriend got plenty of story. It's been a long time since I watched Arrow season 5 but despite the lack of Felicity's POV and OF romance I don't remember any retcons. But again I could be wrong and maybe there were some rewrites and I just forgot about them.

It's true that WestAllen never got it as bad as Lauriver and I never really thought they were dropping them for good but that was only because I knew Patty was going to leave as it was announced before her first episode even aired. Barry and Patty as a couple were never written as OTP material but there was so much of Patty as a character that could have eventually changed. Season 5A OF were similar to season 2A WA in terms of romantic content but it was clear to me that the Arrow writers had no interest in their temporary love interests while the Flash writers gave Patty plenty to do for someone with guest star credits.

 

2 hours ago, Featherhat said:

They did that again with the "amazing" story of Nazi!Kara and Nazi!Oliver who were not only both going to die but Olicity were getting married that crossover (as well as WA). Yeah they definitely oversold the Superflash flirty dynamic but that wasn't because they desperately trying to opt out of WA it was because it was two leads teaming up and becoming friends they aren't going to go "yeah Barry and Kara are cute but too similar to work and obviously on different shows on different networks so of course no actual dating!" when building hype for a big team up. It's far from the first or last time something like that has been way over sold on TV, let alone on the CW. Once WA were actually dating and Kara was actually on the CW their friendship dynamic was never questioned as romantic again. 

But Nazi Kara and Oliver were an actual canon couple. And why would a Barry and Kara romance need to be a selling point for the crossover? I am pretty sure people would have watched it anyway without AJK trying to make it seem there was going to be romantic chemistry.

I don't think they were trying to use Superflash to opt out of WestAllen. I am sorry if it wasn't clear before but I was arguing a different point here. What I meant is that AJK went way overboard with the ship baiting of his leads with multiple love interests. Oliver and Kara were not exempt from that even though I never thought they used any of Oliver's temporary love interests to sideline Felicity and OF like they did with Iris and WA in season 2A. They definitely used Sara and Mon-El to marginalize and eventually replace Laurel and James. I don't believe it's a reach to think they could have tried to do the same with Patty and Iris.

[Trini]

At TVLine: TV's Best Proposals, From the Sweetly Funny to the Super Romantic

Quote

Barry and Iris, The Flash

As heartfelt as the speedster’s first proposal was, it was marred by the reveal that he asked Iris to marry him in the hopes of changing the future and saving her life. Thankfully, he more than got it right the second time around, when he serenaded her with “Running Home to You” before getting down on bended knee.

 

[Trini]

Another article at DC about Barry & Iris: https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2021/03/02/love-on-the-run-why-iris-and-barrys-relationship-endures

Quote

... Long hiatuses are rough, but it gave us plenty of time to reflect on things…like Barry and Iris’s relationship. Right now, they’re separated by an entire dimension. That would be enough to doom just about any marriage, but Barry and Iris have come back from worse before. Think about it. Iris and Barry’s relationship has survived the destruction of the multiverse, losing a child and dealing with a dozen variants of Harrison Wells. It doesn’t matter what is thrown their way, they’ve always come out stronger than ever.

What makes Barry and Iris so different from all the other superhero couples out there? My mind keeps on going back to Iris’s speech from the season four episode “Mixed Signals.” In a moment that has been debated online since it aired, Iris tells Barry, “When I put this ring on my finger, it wasn’t just about you or me anymore, it was about us. You are not the Flash, Barry—we are.” That moment has inspired lots of discussion over the past few years, and it’s the perfect example of why Iris and Barry have continued to persevere.

Iris isn’t trying to take credit for Barry’s superhero successes—she’s telling him that she’ll share the burden. Every failure, tragedy and heartbreak that comes with being the Flash is no longer Barry’s alone because that’s not what marriage is. Barry’s life as the Flash is now Iris’s as well, and it’s about more than what happens in the battlefield. It’s about sharing the trauma of their dangerous lifestyle and working together to overcome all the challenges that entails.  ...

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Trini

[BeautifulFlower]

Honestly, I'm starting to question Cisco and Barry's friendship. Well, how are they staying friends? Or how is Barry staying friends with Cisco. We've been shown that deep deep DEEP down, Cisco doesn't fully TRUST Barry. It goes back to him building the cold gun in case he went rogue. I know he was traumatized after Savitar, but Cisco still built a new suit with a self-destruct mode just in case. I can't stop thinking about this.

[adora721]

6 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Honestly, I'm starting to question Cisco and Barry's friendship. Well, how are they staying friends? Or how is Barry staying friends with Cisco. 

The only person Cisco is completely devoted to is Killer Caitlin Frost Snow, not Kamilla, who Cisco has said is the most important person to him. Time and time again, Cisco has proven that Killer Cait is his number one priority.

Therefore, Cisco has no issue laying waste to Barry or telling Barry when Barry's messed up. Ironically, correcting Barry and holding Barry accountable for Barry's mistakes is a sign of a healthy friendship. No real friend would let you hurt yourself or hurt others without saying or doing something about it.

Cisco's unwillingness to set boundaries for Killer Cait and hold them accountable for wrongdoing is a sign of an unhealthy, one-sided friendship. And Killer Cait clearly does not value Cisco as they should; Cisco is there to feed their ego and sop up their frosty tears. Now that Ralph's gone, it'll be Cisco's full-time job again to tell Killer Cait that, "You is kind, you is smart, you is important."

[Starry]

On 3/13/2021 at 8:22 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

I agree with everything. This is why I said the show should've used supporting characters from the actual Flash comics. They wouldn't be carbon copies each other.  At least, they wouldn't in my opinion. Let's say the show was just Barry, iris, Joe, Wally (comes later), and Linda. We could actually see Barry at his job. Iris and Linda doing some journalism that can tie into the main plot. What I'm seeing on Superman and Lois is what I want to see on The Flash. I really love how they're giving Lois a proper reporter arc. I want that. We should've had that. However, somebody decided to go with this team based thing. and I just want to know what were they thinking? The Flash is a powerful superhero and you decide to give a team?

They probably did it because Barry was younger when he started out and this was supposed to be the Flash's origin story (unlike what's happening on Superman and Lois). The team formula was also considered a success on Arrow and they decided to replicate it on every other show.

As for why the Team Flash dynamic is so prevalent seven years later when Barry is expected to be more resourceful and independent, I believe that laziness, budget issues and a "if it ain't broken" mentality are all possible explanations.

I don't think the characters are the problem, it's the writing. These people have managed to screw up every character whether they are a part of the Flash comics or not. More Wally and Linda would lead to another series of complaints as there would be too many speedsters and too many reporters.

4 hours ago, phoenics said:

Also feel robbed of a WestAllen reunion - after all this time we won't get a real hug or kiss after being separated for months?  Epic fail and so so unrealistic.  This show fails spectacularly at these moments continually and it's exhausting. Contrast that to Hacy on Charmed, where the show is putting focus on their inevitable reunion (due to a magical reason keeping them from being able to touch one another right now) so you KNOW the show plans to do an epic payoff for all of the distance right now.

But this show?  Nope.  We get smart Barry with no emotion and their reunion will likely be completely screwed up or forgotten about. What a waste of CP and GG's chemistry.

Charmed cares about its female viewers. This show is for little boys. The Council of Wells, audience stand-ins like Cisco and Caitlin and a superpowered snarky Frost are more appealing to their target demographic.

Also, Eric Wallace just doesn't care. I read the interviews he and Grant gave in the past two weeks and the difference is like night and day. Eric promised more WestAllen but in his answers he focused on their jobs and the villains they will face as a couple. Grant talked about their marriage and who they are outside of Team Flash. It was also Grant who mentioned the lack of kissing and hugging when talking about shooting during a pandemic while all Eric could think about was his precious action scenes. It's like it didn't even register to him that WestAllen needed to touch after being separated for so long.

I am willing to bet that the vast majority of the kisses we've gotten in the past three seasons were ad-libs from Grant and Candice. The covid restrictions make improv kissing impossible. It has to be in the script. Maybe we'll get something in season 8 when the pandemic is hopefully not a problem anymore (provided it doesn't get cut).

[phoenics]

Yeah - Eric is a textbook comic fanboy who only cares about action and comic plot beats - romance be damned.  That's why he constantly writes now to make sure we all know Iris isn't a damsel and doesn't need saving, that she's a strong black woman who can take care of herself, while leaving Cait/KF in the hands of his white feminist women writers who keep baiting SB.

I'm tired.

[Starry]

I am actually surprised Iris didn't save herself this time  😂

I don't think Eric cares about SB either. He would give Barry and Caitlin way more scenes together if he did. Shippers in general are of no concern to him.

[phoenics]

13 minutes ago, Starry said:

I am actually surprised Iris didn't save herself this time  😂

I don't think Eric cares about SB either. He would give Barry and Caitlin way more scenes together if he did. Shippers in general are of no concern to him.

No, Eric doesn't care about SB - but his white feminist writers DO and they are the ones who keep baiting SB in S6.  EW isn't really paying attention to that - but he should. I don't want to see him even try to touch BLM when he's got those writers undermining WestAllen with their crackship writing and continual shoving of Iris into the SBW trope.

[Trini]

7 hours ago, Starry said:

It's like it didn't even register to him that WestAllen needed to touch after being separated for so long.

I agree with you that Wallace doesn't really care much about showing the romance, but I feel in this instance we're also getting screwed by the pandemic.  😞

7 hours ago, Starry said:

I don't think Eric cares about SB either. He would give Barry and Caitlin way more scenes together if he did. Shippers in general are of no concern to him.

SB is not even a thing when Barry knocked out Frost twice in the last episode, besides letting her take the full blast from Mirror Mistress because he didn't want to take 0.002 chance of not saving Iris.

[Starry]

9 hours ago, Trini said:

I agree with you that Wallace doesn't really care much about showing the romance, but I feel in this instance we're also getting screwed by the pandemic.  😞

We are because the pandemic gives them just another excuse to not write romance. I don't want to dismiss anyone's concerns but what makes the Flash actors so special that they are the only ones who can't make physical contact? Because covid hasn't impacted any other show I watch. It doesn't matter where they film, their rating or what network they are on.

I also wouldn't be surprised if these people gave secondary couples kissing scenes because they think the lead catching the virus is more of a problem than, let's say, Carlos or Danielle catching it. Except that's just another excuse because lead actors have been kissing on every other show.

 

9 hours ago, Trini said:

SB is not even a thing when Barry knocked out Frost twice in the last episode, besides letting her take the full blast from Mirror Mistress because he didn't want to take 0.002 chance of not saving Iris.

Barry knocking out Frost is a staple  😂

I admit that I haven't noticed any SB baiting in season 6 with the possible exception of 6x19 and that directing fail. I think @phoenics is onto something when she blames the white women writers because one of them was liking tweets about romantic SB. That could have been nothing more than an ego thing though. Everyone gives Barry pep talks and everyone coddles Frost. And Barry does it less often than others. The problem is with the writing for Iris and Caitlin as characters in my opinion.

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, Starry said:

We are because the pandemic gives them just another excuse to not write romance. I don't want to dismiss anyone's concerns but what makes the Flash actors so special that they are the only ones who can't make physical contact? Because covid hasn't impacted any other show I watch. It doesn't matter where they film, their rating or what network they are on.

I also wouldn't be surprised if these people gave secondary couples kissing scenes because they think the lead catching the virus is more of a problem than, let's say, Carlos or Danielle catching it. Except that's just another excuse because lead actors have been kissing on every other show.

 

 

Here's the thing, we don't know what behind the scenes are like for this show and the others. I do believe Eric doesn't really care THAT much about romance. I do believe he's not writing those kind of scenes. If he's not, then Candice and Grant could adlib like in the past. This brings me to my next point. We don't know if it's due to the actors as well. I keep seeing people bring up the other shows doing intimate scenes. No one ever questions that maybe those actors are comfortable doing those scenes during a pandemic. Again, we don't know how behind the scenes is. If it ever comes out that either Grant or Candice wanted to kiss during this time, I wouldn't really be surprised. I wish we had intimate scenes though.

[Starry]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Here's the thing, we don't know what behind the scenes are like for this show and the others. I do believe Eric doesn't really care THAT much about romance. I do believe he's not writing those kind of scenes. If he's not, then Candice and Grant could adlib like in the past. This brings me to my next point. We don't know if it's due to the actors as well. I keep seeing people bring up the other shows doing intimate scenes. No one ever questions that maybe those actors are comfortable doing those scenes during a pandemic. Again, we don't know how behind the scenes is. If it ever comes out that either Grant or Candice wanted to kiss during this time, I wouldn't really be surprised. I wish we had intimate scenes though.

They can't. In his interview Grant said that it's been weird and tough to shoot emotional scenes because he's aware of how they [the crew] are trying to limit physical contact. And I know from other productions that they have banned improv kissing and hugging because of covid. It has to be in the script. What makes you think that Grant and Candice can ad-lib when other actors can't? This show is going to be more strict about that, not less.

And I find it really hard to believe that Grant and/or Candice have asked Eric to not include intimate scenes in the script when they aren't even self isolating in their personal lives. It's not like you can catch the virus through kisses only. Mingling with people is enough.

This isn't necessarily about you but fandom has been telling me that "maybe it's the actors" for years now and I feel like I am being gaslit. How many kisses and make-outs do these people have to delete before we accept that TPTB are the problem? How many scripts from guest writers need to be altered?

I am sorry to say this because I love Iris and WestAllen but they are more receptive to people criticizing Iris than they are to people criticizing other characters.

Are you tired of the Wells shtick? Expect another Wells.

Do you want Caitlin to be held accountable? Expect more Caitlin coddling.

Do you want fun Cisco back? Expect more moping.

Do you want smart Barry? Expect Barry to be dumb.

Do you want Iris out of STAR Labs and less WestAllen? Congratulations, you are getting your wish!

The only non-Iris character they have "reformed" is Ralph and that's because they needed to drop the sleaziness after AJK was fired for being a sexual predator.

This "we are avoiding intimate scenes because of covid" is just another excuse to cater to the romance-hating little boys in their target audience.

[Trini]

Well, I was expecting the worst, so I'm glad we got a reunion hug at least. Didn't like that Cisco's "reunion" with Kamilla was a phone call, then adding insult to injury by mentioning kissing that we'll never see.

Iris has always had a connection to Barry's powers, so her powering (restoring?) the new Speed Force worked for me. And I liked the parallel of the spark between them; but now they've got wedding rings on! ❤️  However, the dialog in the episode was so cringey at times. And in general, a lot of stuff was glossed over.

[Trini]

Cute:

 

[Starry]

Barry and Iris are so pretty but the covid restrictions make some scenes look so awkward and unnatural.

[Trini]

21 minutes ago, Starry said:

Barry and Iris are so pretty but the covid restrictions make some scenes look so awkward and unnatural.

It's going to get annoying if they keep doing 'almost-kisses' for the whole season. But despite that, Grant and Candice are still managing to sell the relationship.

[shantown]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

It's going to get annoying if they keep doing 'almost-kisses' for the whole season.

The repeated "almost" gag only works if there's eventually a payoff of an actual, worthy kiss. Otherwise it's just crappy writing.

[Trini]

The show has previously highlighted the Barry & Iris as a power couple, but now Wallace is really going all in on their love being a superpower! He has seemingly combined the concepts of 'the Paragon of Love', 'Lightning Rod', and 'We are the Flash' , while also revisiting the idea of WestAllen as parents and them dealing with the product/s of their love.

I like the ideas here, but as per usual the execution could be better; they are veering into 'too cheesy' territory. And it's weird to think of Barry & Iris as "parents" of the Forces when the avatars are people who are definitely NOT their children.

With 'Family' being a theme again, I wish they make time for more actual West-Allen family scenes. Of course Barry & Iris, but also them and Joe and Cecile (and the once-a-season appearances of Jenna and Wally).

Edited May 16, 2021 by Trini

[Starry]

10 hours ago, Trini said:

Happy that Cisco and Kamilla got some PDA; not happy that they're the only couple to get that, so far.

I am not happy about that and I feel like they only did it because this is going to be their last episode. They spent years not caring about Cisco and Kamilla and did nothing to remedy that this season but they think their zero fans need to see some PDA before they leave? Why can't these writers do things that actually make sense? If COVID is an issue then it's an issue period. It doesn't matter which couple we are talking about and it doesn't matter how long they'll stay on the show. Since I guess they need to limit physical interactions a Cisco/Kamilla kiss would have made more sense in a different context but plot comes before character integrity. Why give Cisco and Kamilla some PDA in their reunion episode when you can waste it on a random scene at the last possible second? Another reason why I think this is fan service to the Cisco fans is that

Spoiler

his last episode includes a team-up with Barry and Caitlin.

It also wasn't lost on me that Cisco got a hug with Wells during Tom's last appearance and we know they are being stingy with hugs too.

Are they going to do the same with WestAllen or do we need to wait until season 8? Their last scene was actually pretty good but wouldn't it make more sense for them to kiss when they are trying to make a baby than in a random episode somewhere down the line? Speaking of, if Iris doesn't get pregnant right away are they going to acknowledge it or is this another "because plot" scenario and we won't hear them talk about it until

Spoiler

their future speedster kids show up in the 150th episode?

It better be the former but I wouldn't be surprised if it were the latter. "Because plot" has always been a problem with this show but it's like they took it to another level recently. That's how they came up with this "the Forces are WA's kids" ridiculous storyline. Some subtlety wouldn't hurt.

Speaking of subtlety, Frost and Chillblane are so corny and cringy I can't believe someone thought this is what chemistry and sexual tension look like. He's obnoxious and I see zero romance there.