Relationships: Speed Dating

[BeautifulFlower]

20 hours ago, Trini said:

Anyway, I did like that in the last episode we had several scenes with the West-Allen family women; and everyone there in the courtroom to support Cecile was nice.

 

 

I'm going to be honest. It kinda bothered me that Iris didn't know it was Cecile's first day back. Then, they wrote it as her deciding to go to the courtroom, just because everybody else had a task to do. I would've liked it if Iris was always going to go support Cecile.

Edited January 21, 2019 by BeautifulFlower

[wingster55]

26 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Here's the post I made about it: 

Thank you for that. 

[BkWurm1]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I'm going to be honest. It kinda bothered me that Iris didn't know it was Cecile's first day back. Then, they wrote it as her deciding to go to the courtroom, just because everybody else had a task to do. I would've liked it if Iris was always going to go support Cecile.

Especially since Joe was out of town.  You'd think he'd make sure she'd have support beforehand.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I'm going to be honest. It kinda bothered me that Iris didn't know it was Cecile's first day back. Then, they wrote it as her deciding to go to the courtroom, just because everybody else had a task to do. I would've liked it if Iris was always going to go support Cecile.

They just make the laziest dialogue choices sometimes. They needed someone to ask for exposition.

[SimoneS]

I was just watching a clip from Riverdale with Archie and Veronica. I swear that show is at 8 p.m. also and is 100 times risque than The Flash. I am not asking that we see Barry and Iris rolling around half naked on a bed, but more passion would be nice.

Edited January 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[Starry]

49 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I was just watching a clip from Riverdale with Archie and Veronica. I swear that show is at 8 p.m. also and is 100 times risque than The Flash. I am not asking that we see Barry and Iris rolling around half naked on a bed, but more passion would be nice.

Riverdale is a TV-14 show. The Flash can also change the rating for specific episodes. They'd rather do it for violent fight scenes and strippers though, not for a sex scene between their main interracial couple.

At this point I miss the days when they had interrupted kisses.

[Trini]

It's not even about the rating for me, because you can still show passion/sexiness within that constraint. (The deleted breakfast scene from last season is a perfect example.)

I've got a theory that some people behind the scenes just don't see Barry & Iris (either individually or together, or both) as 'sexy', so that comes through in the end product.

[SimoneS]

1 minute ago, Trini said:

It's not even about the rating for me, because you can still show passion/sexiness within that constraint. (The deleted breakfast scene from last season is a perfect example.)

I've got a theory that some people behind the scenes just don't see Barry & Iris (either individually or together, or both) as 'sexy', so that comes through in the end product.

Even though they cut it, they did film the breakfast scene and we got the slow mo scene of Iris and Barry walking into the party in the episode, "All Doll'd Up" so I don't think it is about the showrunner not seeing Barry and Iris as sexy. Rather I think that they prioritize the adventure aspect of the show as they strive to keep that higher younger demo that the show now has. It actually explains the decision to make Ralph a regular character. He brings humor and lightness to the more intense stories.  And let's face it, from the show's perspective everything that they have done has worked because despite its ratings decline which is to be expected in its fifth year, The Flash remains the highest rated show on the whole CW. As a result, the show isn't likely to change its formula.  

[adora721]

I love this response by Ladies with Gumption to an assertion that GG was playing scenes with Caitlin as "romantic":

 

"I’m gonna answer this because that particular Grant “quote” is something fans of that pairing like to bring up a lot in defense of the ship. When you go back to the source, it was written in 2014 by a writer of a major entertainment media network who was a blatant fan of the B/C pairing. She took an article that was supposed to be talking about the SnowStorm story arc of Caitlin working through her loss of Ronnie (and Barry’s support in helping her face that loss) and turned the whole thing into a “will they, won’t they” piece on Barry and Caitlin. With the help of some creative editing she took an incomplete/out of context quote from Grant and immediately paired it with a more elaborate quote from Danielle to make it seem both actors were in favor of and promoting her preferred pairing. There are no follow up quotes from Grant in subsequent interviews or cons where he repeats the sentiment, and the only other time I remember him getting asked directly (and I think I want to say it was by the same interviewer who wrote that article) he emphasized their current relationship as co-workers and just good friends over the possibility of a potential romance. Grant has never said that he was purposely playing his scenes with Danielle as romantic, nor has he ever claimed Barry considered Caitlin anything other than a good friend. I do agree that I don’t think SB was some plot that Danielle came up with of her own doing. I’ve always maintained I think much of the reason she felt OK promoting it was because (AJK) someone with authority lead her to believe it could become a potential story line down the road. AJK created that toxic, competitive environment bts. It’s why I also believed she stopped promoting around mid S2 because, with Patty/Barry currently developing and WA coming up, AJK stopped giving her the impression he was entertaining the idea of it as a possible story to develop in the future.

Chemistry is subjective, and if you enjoy the dynamic between Barry and Caitlin, I don’t have problem with that. People find chemistry between different characters for all kinds of reasons. A pairing doesn’t have to be canon for people to believe two characters have chemistry. I’m not saying you can’t believe Barry and Caitlin have romantic chemistry. My point is they are not a canon ship. It’s not canon in the narrative that: Barry and/or Caitlin develop feelings for each other but decide not to pursue it/better as friends. In fact, that’s literally Barry/Felicity. There’s nothing in narrative that says: Caitlin is jealous of Iris/Barry’s love for Iris/Iris’ relationship with Barry. That’s Linda/Barry. If you take 1x12 and swap out Barry/Caitlin for Cisco/Caitlin (a pairing both actors and writers view as strictly platonic), nothing about the narrative (Caitlin and male friend, both dealing with personal issues, decide to go to a bar and let loose. Caitlin gets drunk. Male friend escorts her home. Next day, they both agree they feel happier, albeit hungover, and life continues on as normal) changes. People who enjoy Caitlin’s dynamic with Cisco would’ve obviously been very happy, but their ship still wouldn’t be any closer to be canon unless one or both characters made a realization that the person they wanted to be crazy about was each other. And that would be something that would be written as a plot point and we would see it develop."

Edited January 25, 2019 by adora721

[SimoneS]

I have never saw a hint of Barry and Caitlin as a romantic couple on the screen and definitely never thought it was going to happen.  I have never been into non-canon couples or crack ships although there have been a few non-canon couples that I would have like to seen happen. What irks me is when people pretend that their non-canon couples or crack ships are actually happening on the show or even worse attack the actors and/or writers and/or entertainment folks on social media or in other forums.

[Trini]

(Doing my best to speak this into existence:) The Barry/Cecile hug in the last episode was nice; it would be nicer if the show would officially make her his stepmother-in-law. And they had Capt. Singh point out that Joe and Cecile were a 'force to reckon with', so COME ON, show!

[SimoneS]

I like Cecile and her relationship with Joe, but I don't like that she had that baby or that they made her a meta. Announcing that Joe had taken Jenna to visit Wally in Tibet, which is occupied by China btw, illustrates the mess that the show has created for itself with that baby. And if Iris does get pregnant with twins as we suspect, the show is going to have to come up with even more ridiculous reasons to explain the absence of three babies. What is done is done so she and Joe might as well get married, but it doesn't feel like matters either way.

Edited January 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

21 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

And if Iris does get pregnant with twins as we suspect, the show is going to have to come up with even more ridiculous reasons to explain the absence of three babies.

Yeah, this is why I don't want Iris to be pregnant until the final season. These shows really aren't interested in babies.

And even now with Barry & Iris in parental roles this season, I feel like their not milking enough from that as they could.

[SimoneS]

8 minutes ago, Trini said:

Yeah, this is why I don't want Iris to be pregnant until the final season. These shows really aren't interested in babies.

And even now with Barry & Iris in parental roles this season, I feel like their not milking enough from that as they could.

I don't really disagree, but there are a couple things. I really think that it is time for Barry and Iris to have their first child or children in terms of their story. They are almost thirty and they have been together "forever" in tv years. The show will miss its window for these babies to have any impact if they aren't born sooner than later. Barry and Iris raising speedster toddlers has comedic potential. They could get Barry and Iris a full-time nanny and have the babies in a nursery at Star Labs when they want to incorporate them into stories. Also, it is difficult to know how many years The Flash will last. Maybe another three or four years or it could go on and on like Supernatural. This makes it extremely difficult to try to time Iris' pregnancy with the final season.

[adora721]

I found an old S2 interview in which Danielle says she wants "Caitlin" to have a girlfriend to hang out with, but it's "Patty" she wants, not "Iris":

"The character Patty Spivot, played by Shantel VanSanten, will be introduced to the show in season two.  Because that character is really into science will we see Caitlin and Patty interact?

Danielle:  I would love that!  Shantel is amazing. We are lucky that the two big additions to our cast are Shantel and Teddy Sears, who will play Jay Garrick. The both are so wonderful, and they make it feel that they truly belong on our show. I remember hearing Jesse L. Martin telling Teddy “You fit here. It’s a perfect fit.”   Shantel and I haven’t worked together yet as of episode six but my understanding is that will change, and I am looking forward to it.  I don’t know under what context that will be. Hopefully, her character will come to Star Labs, and we can be two girls hanging out. Caitlin needs a girlfriend!"

Edited January 27, 2019 by adora721

[Starry]

6 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I don't really disagree, but there are a couple things. I really think that it is time for Barry and Iris to have their first child or children in terms of their story. They are almost thirty and they have been together "forever" in tv years. The show will miss its window for these babies to have any impact if they aren't born sooner than later. Barry and Iris raising speedster toddlers has comedic potential. They could get Barry and Iris a full-time nanny and have the babies in a nursery at Star Labs when they want to incorporate them into stories. Also, it is difficult to know how many years The Flash will last. Maybe another three or four years or it could go on and on like Supernatural. This makes it extremely difficult to try to time Iris' pregnancy with the final season.

That's the point. I don't think they want their children to have any impact. Not as babies. The way Todd talks about it he views babies as a hindrance, not as a source of comedy. I do agree with you and disagree with his limited vision but he's the one running the show.

 

5 hours ago, adora721 said:

Hopefully, her character will come to Star Labs, and we can be two girls hanging out. Caitlin needs a girlfriend!"

Interesting. I thought she wanted to be the only girl in STAR Labs...

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, Starry said:

That's the point. I don't think they want their children to have any impact. Not as babies. The way Todd talks about it he views babies as a hindrance, not as a source of comedy. I do agree with you and disagree with his limited vision but he's the one running the show.

If Helbing considers babies a hindrance, why on earth did he think it was funny to give one to Joe and Cecile. That is a baby that has nothing to contribute to the show in terms of plot. Instead they have to come with explanation for where the baby is when Joe and Cecile are in Team Flash mode. The line "we are going to need more diapers" does suggest that Barry and Iris' twins are happening as babies and I can see DC wanting to have them on the show. What The Flash needs is a time jump to age the twins, but they probably can't do that since it anchors the crossovers. I suppose the adult twins can show up in the future like adult Nora did.

Edited January 27, 2019 by SimoneS

[Starry]

It was AJK who decided to give Joe and Cecile a baby. Joe and Cecile are also supporting characters who can disappear off screen to deal with their kid more often than the Flash can.

I think we will see Iris get pregnant and give birth on the show but it will be in the final season. This way they won't have to worry about what to do with the babies once they are born because the show would soon be ending.

[BeautifulFlower]

I really don't like them giving the excuse that Joe is in Tibet with Jenna. That's a con with Cecile/Jenna relationship. She's an infant and he needs her mother. They implied that they've been gone out of country for months. First, off can you take an infant out the country yet? When they come back, Cecile better not be surprised if Jenna starts crying around her. Seriously, no mother would be away from their child that long. What is with these writers and the writing surrounding Mother/Daughter relationships?

[BkWurm1]

They didn't say he had Jenna with him.  He took her to visit her older sister that one time but they only say Joe is staying with Wally.  Jenna presumably was at day care.  

For reference the exact lines are:

C:  "Hey, I got here as fast as I could.  Joe's still in Tibet.  I left him a message to get back asap."

B: "Hey, that's alright.  He should stay with Wally."  (Cue hug)

Edited January 28, 2019 by BkWurm1

[BeautifulFlower]

11 hours ago, BkWurm1 said:

They didn't say he had Jenna with him.  He took her to visit her older sister that one time but they only say Joe is staying with Wally.  Jenna presumably was at day care.  

For reference the exact lines are:

C:  "Hey, I got here as fast as I could.  Joe's still in Tibet.  I left him a message to get back asap."

B: "Hey, that's alright.  He should stay with Wally."  (Cue hug)

I could've sworn they said Jenna was also with Joe. Then again, they came out and said Joe been's on vacation ever since Cicada broke into his house. They seem to have forgotten that Joe was in 5x04 and they mentioned he was with Cecile on Thanksgiving. This whole Tibet thing came out of nowhere and made no sense

[Trini]

They put up the apology on Twitter:

 

I feel like the apology from Nora to Iris, and the Barry's reassurance that Iris is a good mother in every timeline is a direct response to some of the complaints/worries earlier in the season about the Iris/Nora relationship. I'm glad for the apology, and that someone listened to the fans.

The West-Allen family is becoming a stronger unit, but then Nora's still lying about her intentions and working with Thawne; so I want the reveal to come soon so they have time to process and then come back to working together as a family. (Because it will be devastating to Iris and Barry especially.)

Speaking of Barry; I think we needed a longer moment/scene with "This might be the only time I see [Nora] at this age". Because it sounds like he's already accepted that he won't be there for his family in the future, but we started out the season with him crushed by that, and everyone wanting to change that future.

Family, legacy, and fatherhood are supposed to be the themes this season, so I thought they'd spend a little longer on his feelings about that. But I appreciate that they spent time on Iris' feelings. They still have to directly address Barry's disappearance eventually.

[SimoneS]

28 minutes ago, Trini said:

Speaking of Barry; I think we needed a longer moment/scene with "This might be the only time I see [Nora] at this age". Because it sounds like he's already accepted that he won't be there for his family in the future, but we started out the season with him crushed by that, and everyone wanting to change that future.

This passive acceptance of Barry's fate is so out of character. I thought once they found out that Barry would disappear for 25 years that Iris and Team Flash would immediately start working on a plan to save him like they did to save Iris from Savitar in season 3. Maybe they are saving this for next season after Nora changes the timeline and leaves. I just hope with her gone, Barry and Iris will go back to feeling like Barry and Iris.

[Trini]

In non-West-Allen relationships:

So did Ralph know that Cisco's into women in leather in general, or was he just trying to match him with someone who was similar to Gypsy? In any case, their side plot was cute. I'd still rather have Cynthia back, but I don't mind if Cisco gets another (short term?) love interest. Glad he's getting to do something outside of STAR Labs, but I still want more for him.

---

It's not an exact parallel, but I'm liking that now we have our father/daughter hero duo fighting against the father/daughter* villain duo with Cicada and Grace. Before I thought Grace would be the key to stopping Cicada, but having her be on his side (or controlling him??) makes things more complicated and interesting.

I just wonder what will happen to Dr. Ambres who is encouraging their crusade.

*uncle/niece

Edited February 4, 2019 by Trini
whoops forgot that asterisk note

[SimoneS]

14 minutes ago, Trini said:

So did Ralph know that Cisco's into women in leather in general, or was he just trying to match him with someone who was similar to Gypsy? In any case, their side plot was cute. I'd still rather have Cynthia back, but I don't mind if Cisco get another (short term?) love interest. Glad he's getting to do something outside of STAR Labs, but I still want more for him.

It will be nice to see Cisco happy again. I think that they should work on improving his dialogue and making him a fun guy again.

 

14 minutes ago, Trini said:

I just wonder what will happen to Dr. Ambres who is encouraging their crusade.

Maybe she ends up raising Grace after she wakes up and Orlin dies.

[adora721]

58 minutes ago, Trini said:

It's not an exact parallel, but I'm liking that it's now we have our father/daughter hero duo fighting against the father/daughter* villain duo with Cicada and Grace.

There's another potential father/daughter duo: Killer Frost and Icicle. Icicle could pull an Anakin Skywalker and help his daugter defeat Cicada and Grace.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 1/31/2019 at 8:04 PM, SimoneS said:

This passive acceptance of Barry's fate is so out of character. I thought once they found out that Barry would disappear for 25 years that Iris and Team Flash would immediately start working on a plan to save him like they did to save Iris from Savitar in season 3. Maybe they are saving this for next season after Nora changes the timeline and leaves. I just hope with her gone, Barry and Iris will go back to feeling like Barry and Iris.

But how would they go about changing it though? All they see in the headline is that Barry disappears and nothing else. They don't know how exactly it goes down. With Savitar it was different. Barry went to the future and saw that Savitar is going to stab Iris. He was the exact way it was gonna and where. Team Flash can't save Barry if they don't have all the details.

[SimoneS]

1 minute ago, BeautifulFlower said:

But how would they go about changing it though? All they see in the headline is that Barry disappears and nothing else. They don't know how exactly it goes down. With Savitar it was different. Barry went to the future and saw that Savitar is going to stab Iris. He was the exact way it was gonna and where. Team Flash can't save Barry if they don't have all the details.

Good point, but knowing that the Reverse Flash was involved, I would think that they consider the possibility it is likely tied to him going back to kill Barry as a child. Barry wouldn't even have to time travel to the future because now that Cisco is cured, there is no reason that he couldn't vibe to that time period to find out the details, then they would need to find a way to stop Thawne. Not that I expect that any of this would be successful, but we should at least be seeing them make the effort.

[Starry]

3 hours ago, ruby24 said:

No Joe. No WestAllen. I'm sorry but I'm now convinced the actors have absolutely no offscreen friendship whatsoever and that really shows- there will never be a romantic or love scene between them in this case. I feel stupid because I probably should have seen that all along- I never would have held out hope if I had realized what some people always knew, I guess. And I have a terrible feeling that if they had Barry with another love interest now (say in an alternate universe or whatever) they absolutely would give him a love scene and more physical interaction with whoever the actress was. There's something wrong here.

With people you mean SB fans? Fans of other ships that feel the need to compete with WestAllen for every little thing? Or the WA fans that would rather listen to cheap gossip than hold the writers/showrunners accountable for how they treat their main couple? The argument about the actors having a cold off screen relationship that influences the show rears its head any time WA is not at its best content-wise ( or any time the cast doesn't post click-bait selfies on SM I guess ). Then fans watch the bloopers/cons, are made aware of deleted scenes and edited scripts and pretend they haven't been listening to cheap gossip all along.

When writers pen a script they don't ask the actors to rate their off screen friendship on a 1-10 scale. There's something wrong here but that has nothing to do with how close two professional actors are when the cameras arent's rolling. Especially when there are countless examples of folks that hated each others guts and still had to act out romantic scenes.

Going by your logic if they were to give Barry a love scene with another actress said actress would have to be a close friend of Grant's.

Let's not go down that rabbit hole.

It makes me sad to read this kind of comments because IMO Candice is one of Grant's best screen partners. Lately he seemed the most "alive" in the Memorabilia episode with Candice and in the crossover with Stephen. He showed more passion/emotion when he tried to convince Iris that the "bad mom" memory was a fake one than in any dramatic Barry/Nora moment, including the "blinded by rage" one.

Todd Helbing was clear that this was the season they were going to show WA as parents, that when you are a parent the romance takes a backseat. What we are seeing on screen is the result of that particular black and white line of thinking. From my perspective, Nora has taken over the show in a way not even Ralph did. She has way more screen time than Iris and more POV than both her parents. I enjoy Nora more than most but spotlighting her and her issues has caused a series of problems, including giving the writers a "believable" excuse to quasi-erase WestAllen as a romantic couple. IMO it's not a coincidence that two of the most romantic WA scenes took place in a Nora-less crossover.

[SevenStars]

3 hours ago, Starry said:

With people you mean SB fans? Fans of other ships that feel the need to compete with WestAllen for every little thing? Or the WA fans that would rather listen to cheap gossip than hold the writers/showrunners accountable for how they treat their main couple? The argument about the actors having a cold off screen relationship that influences the show rears its head any time WA is not at its best content-wise ( or any time the cast doesn't post click-bait selfies on SM I guess ). Then fans watch the bloopers/cons, are made aware of deleted scenes and edited scripts and pretend they haven't been listening to cheap gossip all along.

When writers pen a script they don't ask the actors to rate their off screen friendship on a 1-10 scale. There's something wrong here but that has nothing to do with how close two professional actors are when the cameras arent's rolling. Especially when there are countless examples of folks that hated each others guts and still had to act out romantic scenes.

Going by your logic if they were to give Barry a love scene with another actress said actress would have to be a close friend of Grant's.

Let's not go down that rabbit hole.

It makes me sad to read this kind of comments because IMO Candice is one of Grant's best screen partners. Lately he seemed the most "alive" in the Memorabilia episode with Candice and in the crossover with Stephen. He showed more passion/emotion when he tried to convince Iris that the "bad mom" memory was a fake one than in any dramatic Barry/Nora moment, including the "blinded by rage" one.

Todd Helbing was clear that this was the season they were going to show WA as parents, that when you are a parent the romance takes a backseat. What we are seeing on screen is the result of that particular black and white line of thinking. From my perspective, Nora has taken over the show in a way not even Ralph did. She has way more screen time than Iris and more POV than both her parents. I enjoy Nora more than most but spotlighting her and her issues has caused a series of problems, including giving the writers a "believable" excuse to quasi-erase WestAllen as a romantic couple. IMO it's not a coincidence that two of the most romantic WA scenes took place in a Nora-less crossover.

I agree with most of this but I can't blame Nora being part of the season as the reason we seen such a lack of simple physical intimacy from Westallen. This have been a major failure of the writing for a while now. Nora presence might have made it worst simply because it wasn't good to begin with. 

[DearEvette]

Tood Helbing's background is very bro-centric.  He comes from shows like Entourage and Spartacus.  So I always get the feeling that while they include the relationship of Barry & Iris because it is comics cannon, that they don't necessarily want to write the romance part of.  To me this is more symptomatic of the Flash than any of the other Berlanti-verse shows, but then the other Berlanti-verse shows either have female or co-female showrunners.

I mean, there have been scenes of Barry/Iris being overtly romantic, the breakfast scene for one.  Also there was a dance scene.  These were both cut.  This leads me to believe there is actual discussion and desire in the writer's room to show the more romantic side of WA, but there is a deliberate decision not to, possibly coming from Helbing.

It isn't an entire Berlanti-verse thing since Arrow, Black Lightning and Legends have shown some real sexy times amongst their romantic pairings.  I mean there was a scene of Sara showing up in Ava's office in a barely there black teddy!  But then again, those shows also boast female showrunners or co-showrunners. 

Also after season 1, The Flash has always struck me as a show that the writing prioritizes the plot over the characters.  And it shows in the relationship development nit just in WA but across all the relationships.  It is a shame.  Because the cast is charismatic and really could pull off some great character stuff.  Season 1 showed us that.

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Also after season 1, The Flash has always struck me as a show that the writing prioritizes the plot over the characters.  And it shows in the relationship development nit just in WA but across all the relationships.  It is a shame.  Because the cast is charismatic and really could pull off some great character stuff.  Season 1 showed us that.

I agree. I remember when Kreisberg left so many people said that things would change for WestAllen on screen, but nada. Clearly, Helbing is responsible for the inconsistent portrayal of WestAllen's romantic relationship. All Doll'd Up was such as great episode for them, but since them, nada. And nothing will change as long as Helbing is the showrunner. He shrugged off the uproar from the entertainment media and from fans on social media when Barry and Iris moved in together without a love scene. I bet from his perspective The Flash is the number show on CW so why should he change anything or listen to complaining fans who watch anyway. He doesn't see that he could improve the show by building on Barry and Iris' romantic relationship. It is unfortunate because Barry and Iris' relationship has been the foundation of the show, IMO. Barry's love for Iris has been critical to the major jumps in his ability to use his powers and also most of his decisions. She really has been his lightning rod.

Edited February 6, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

8 hours ago, Starry said:

With people you mean SB fans? Fans of other ships that feel the need to compete with WestAllen for every little thing? Or the WA fans that would rather listen to cheap gossip than hold the writers/showrunners accountable for how they treat their main couple? The argument about the actors having a cold off screen relationship that influences the show rears its head any time WA is not at its best content-wise ( or any time the cast doesn't post click-bait selfies on SM I guess ). Then fans watch the bloopers/cons, are made aware of deleted scenes and edited scripts and pretend they haven't been listening to cheap gossip all along.

When writers pen a script they don't ask the actors to rate their off screen friendship on a 1-10 scale. There's something wrong here but that has nothing to do with how close two professional actors are when the cameras arent's rolling. Especially when there are countless examples of folks that hated each others guts and still had to act out romantic scenes.

Going by your logic if they were to give Barry a love scene with another actress said actress would have to be a close friend of Grant's.

Let's not go down that rabbit hole....

The actors are literally the face of the show, so they're easy targets; especially in this social media age. I wish they wouldn't get so much blame because they don't have as much - or any - power over the content (in particular, writing and editing) as people think they do. (And I know that there are some actors that do have some say in the content, but I don't think that's the case here. Especially at CW, and especially with Grant being fairly new to Hollywood.)

Edited February 6, 2019 by Trini

[Trini]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Tood Helbing's background is very bro-centric.  He comes from shows like Entourage and Spartacus.  So I always get the feeling that while they include the relationship of Barry & Iris because it is comics cannon, that they don't necessarily want to write the romance part of.  To me this is more symptomatic of the Flash than any of the other Berlanti-verse shows, but then the other Berlanti-verse shows either have female or co-female showrunners.

I mean, there have been scenes of Barry/Iris being overtly romantic, the breakfast scene for one.  Also there was a dance scene.  These were both cut.  This leads me to believe there is actual discussion and desire in the writer's room to show the more romantic side of WA, but there is a deliberate decision not to, possibly coming from Helbing.

It isn't an entire Berlanti-verse thing since Arrow, Black Lightning and Legends have shown some real sexy times amongst their romantic pairings.  I mean there was a scene of Sara showing up in Ava's office in a barely there black teddy!  But then again, those shows also boast female showrunners or co-showrunners.

Agreed they not interested in showing the romantic side of Barry & Iris; at least not as much this season. Lack of female showrunners is probably part of the problem; although there are some women in the writers room. The thing is, I've seen shows that are much more "bro-centric", or have less women involved that still manage to put in some romance/sexiness, because the leading man has to be seen as attractive/desirable (and his love interest too) and they want him to 'get the girl'. I'd think with a more "bro-centric" overall attitude there'd be more sexiness.

I have my own ideas, but I'm not sure what the exact problem is here. They/someone seems to have bought into the idea that they don't need to show anything, or that they can't be too riqué. I think they have given some good, romantic moments this season, but it has been sporadic. However, I've liked Barry & Iris' domestic scenes and scenes of them supporting each other and working together. Those aren't strictly "romance", but I think those are important too, and I appreciate it. It would great to see them kiss more, but I don't have a quota.

There are only a few Berlanti-verse shows I watch or hear about, but I think WestAllen are doing fine in comparison. Kara on Supergirl has no romantic prospects at all; Oliver on Arrow was separated from his wife for half the season so far; the Pierces are together on Black Lightning but superhero drama has taken a toll; (and outside of CW, God Friended Me is even more "PG" than this show) I can't speak for the rest.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Also after season 1, The Flash has always struck me as a show that the writing prioritizes the plot over the characters.  And it shows in the relationship development nit just in WA but across all the relationships.  It is a shame.  Because the cast is charismatic and really could pull off some great character stuff.  Season 1 showed us that.

It sucks because we know the actors can bring it when they get good/meaty writing. The cast is great, and has elevated material before.

[Trini]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

... He doesn't see that he could improve the show by building on Barry and Iris' romantic relationship. It is unfortunate because Barry and Iris' relationship has been the foundation of show, IMO. Barry's love for Iris has been critical to the major jumps in his ability to use his powers and also most of his decisions. She really has been his lightning rod.

I agree that Helbing/the writers have been inconsistent with their romantic relationship (then again, they've been inconsistent with everyone's...). But in one way I think they have built on their relationship for this season, since the product of their love is a central figure for this season (although Nora is threatening to take over the show) and they are showing a new facet of their relationship as parents. But Barry & Iris as two people in love, shouldn't be forgotten either.

I will say that episodes with significant WestAllen moments tend to be the better ones; and they know people respond to them, so why not write towards that?

[SimoneS]

31 minutes ago, Trini said:

I agree that Helbing/the writers have been inconsistent with their romantic relationship (then again, they've been inconsistent with everyone's...). But in one way I think they have built on their relationship for this season, since the product of their love is a central figure for this season (although Nora is threatening to take over the show) and they are showing a new facet of their relationship as parents. But Barry & Iris as two people in love, shouldn't be forgotten either.

I will say that episodes with significant WestAllen moments tend to be the better ones; and they know people respond to them, so why not write towards that?

My issue is that Barry and Iris just got married. Having them go from barely being married a hot second to being parents of a petulant adult child has aged them a decade over one season. It is made worse by the lack of intimate moments between them. The show has given us far too few quiet moments when we see them connecting as two people in love that aren't related to commiserating over Nora's drama.

[ruby24]

The show has never been interested in showing intimacy between them. Evidence exists of higher-ups cutting scenes that would have done so. I've lost all hope of ever seeing anything like that.

[Starry]

8 hours ago, SevenStars said:

I agree with most of this but I can't blame Nora being part of the season as the reason we seen such a lack of simple physical intimacy from Westallen. This have been a major failure of the writing for a while now. Nora presence might have made it worst simply because it wasn't good to begin with. 

I agree. I think Nora's presence just gave them an excuse and exacerbated problems that were already there. IMO they officially stopped caring about writing towards WA after they got married. The fact that they got cheated out of a wedding reception is one of the symptoms. We got more in s4 because Barry and by extension Iris were still at the center of some drama, like the Trial of the Flash arc and the Enter Flashtime and Run, Iris, Run episodes. The rest was about them taking care of the team/fighting a villain who had no emotional connection to the characters.

This season most of the emotional beats are being given to Nora. It wasn't that noticeable when Iris and Nora were having issues because Barry got to comfort his wife and be there for her, which gave the writers an incentive to lean more into the romance aspect, even though it was still about their daughter. There's potential for dramatic moments that center Barry but the writers are ignoring both his crossover hidden darkness and his future disappearance.

IMO one of the reasons why there's less romance is that there's less Barry drama. All the drama comes from Nora, her issues with her mother, her desire to save her father, her secret partnership with Thawne. Another problem is that we are thirteen episodes into the season and I still don't see Barry, Iris and Nora as a real family. They don't have enough scenes with just the three of them together. Nora has a heart-to-heart with Iris in one episode, another with Barry in another episode, then there's an episode of Barry and Iris discussing Nora. Where are the poignant moments with all three of them? For a season that was supposed to be family-centric there's too much disconnect.

 

5 hours ago, Kate45 said:

Both Candice and Grant have stated in interviews/cons that the writers give close to zero direction about when they should kiss or be affectionate. So, I would say that the vast majority of the affection that we have seen has been due to the actors adding in the things that make the couple so sweet. That said, because of the way the actors have built out this couple their lack of affection is jarring. All of these episodes happened as Grant was planning his wedding, and I hope that wouldn’t cause the ACTORS to stop being affectionate. However, I do think that’s the case, to be honest. It’s really annoying and feels strange.

Even if there isn't much direction in the script they still have a director on set. Shouldn't the director also take care of such things like the tone of a scene/episode?

As for the bolded, if there's even a hint of truth in what you are saying...YIKES! Now I'm getting paranoid.

[DearEvette]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

Agreed they not interested in showing the romantic side of Barry & Iris; at least not as much this season. Lack of female showrunners is probably part of the problem; although there are some women in the writers room. The thing is, I've seen shows that are much more "bro-centric", or have less women involved that still manage to put in some romance/sexiness, because the leading man has to be seen as attractive/desirable (and his love interest too) and they want him to 'get the girl'. I'd think with a more "bro-centric" overall attitude there'd be more sexiness.

Yeah, this is why I say this all comes down to Helbing.  The sensibility & tone of the show comes from the showrunner. We have seen that there have been romantic scenes for WA, but they deliberately get cut, so we know there are writers who can write the romantic scenes.  This feels to me like something that comes from top down because romance is simply not his aesthetic.  I characterize him as bro-centric based on the tenor of his previous projects, not just because he is a guy.  Meanwhile the showrunner of Arrow's (previous) background was in Desperate Housewives and Mara Brock Akil has a strong sense of showcasing black female desirability & black love with shows like Girlfriends and The Game. 

Honestly, I think this is also why they can't seem to stick the landing when it comes to a romance for Caitlin.  And even the Cisco/Gypsy romance was pretty lackluster and perfunctory.

I also think that showing a woman as sexy/desirable (which they have done with Iris on occasion) is very different that showing a couple as romantic.  The former is something for the male gaze the latter is something for the female gaze. 

I don't think anyone is advocating that the Flash suddenly becomes a full fledged romantic show, but if you are going to have a married couple at the center whose love for each other drives some of the plot  (hello Season 3!!) then give their love the visual weight it deserves so the story payoff really matters.

[adora721]

13 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Honestly, I think this is also why they can't seem to stick the landing when it comes to a romance for Caitlin.  And even the Cisco/Gypsy romance was pretty lackluster and perfunctory.

I agree about Cisco/Cynthia, but DP has put the kibosh on romantic pairings starting in S3. She actually complained to managment to stop giving Caitlin romantic interests, so that's on her. Even when there was talk of pairing her with Ralph, DP also put the kibosh on that, too.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Yeah, this is why I say this all comes down to Helbing.  The sensibility & tone of the show comes from the showrunner. We have seen that there have been romantic scenes for WA, but they deliberately get cut, so we know there are writers who can write the romantic scenes.  This feels to me like something that comes from top down because romance is simply not his aesthetic.  I characterize him as bro-centric based on the tenor of his previous projects, not just because he is a guy.  Meanwhile the showrunner of Arrow's (previous) background was in Desperate Housewives and Mara Brock Akil has a strong sense of showcasing black female desirability & black love with shows like Girlfriends and The Game. 

Honestly, I think this is also why they can't seem to stick the landing when it comes to a romance for Caitlin.  And even the Cisco/Gypsy romance was pretty lackluster and perfunctory.

I also think that showing a woman as sexy/desirable (which they have done with Iris on occasion) is very different that showing a couple as romantic.  The former is something for the male gaze the latter is something for the female gaze. 

I don't think anyone is advocating that the Flash suddenly becomes a full fledged romantic show, but if you are going to have a married couple at the center whose love for each other drives some of the plot  (hello Season 3!!) then give their love the visual weight it deserves so the story payoff really matters.

I wish I could give your post 100 likes. I think those deliberately cut scenes are so telling about Helbing's style of as a showrunner, especially when we see the many useless scenes that could easily been taken out instead. 

Interestingly, the one thing that I noticed that has improved with Kreisberg's departure is that Iris has gotten to be more in the center of the action. This has been good and bad. Last season, it felt like Iris was plopped into Star Labs rather than encountering action as she did her job as a journalist like when she was being shot at in that building and Barry rescued her. I'll say again that I thought All Doll'd Up was a near perfect WestAllen episode. Last night I thought was the perfect Iris episode. Iris showed that she was a good investigating reporter tracking down Cicada and then when she was caught in the house, she used her wits, courage, and experience fighting Marlize and others to survive and escape. I give Helbing a lot of credit for last night. He refuses to let the misogyny and racism against Iris win, but he needs to keep giving more stories like last night where her uses her journalism for related-meta stories.

Edited February 7, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

And even the Cisco/Gypsy romance was pretty lackluster and perfunctory.

Disagree somewhat -- I think that relationship was handled pretty well in Season 3, considering it wasn't the main romance of the show. They dropped the ball next season when the actress wasn't available; although I did really like the few scenes they got to have together (carried by the actors' talent and chemistry).

 

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I also think that showing a woman as sexy/desirable (which they have done with Iris on occasion) is very different that showing a couple as romantic.  The former is something for the male gaze the latter is something for the female gaze. 

I don't think 'romance' is as strictly a female thing as most think*, but yes, they are two different things. But I've seen that both can be done in the same show.

Agreed on everything else. Not sure where it would come from, but a change in attitude behind-the-scenes is needed.

*(One testosterone-heavy show I used to watch had a lot less romantic moments than here, but those moments were high quality/highly significant.)

[adora721]

On 1/27/2019 at 2:18 AM, Starry said:

Interesting. I thought she wanted to be the only girl in STAR Labs...

I just realized that Caitlin got what she wanted: A girlfriend who works with her in STAR Labs and it's Killer Frost! Iris doesn't count in DP's book, so...

[Trini]

Just thinking back on Barry's statement to Iris that "Any future with you in it is gonna be a good one", and how it kind of reinforces the idea shown in Season 3* that the future sucks without Iris there.

*(3.19, where Barry goes to the future where Iris is dead.)

[SimoneS]

I was wondering during my re-watch of the season one; if Iris really was Barry's best friend, how come she never noticed the jealousy, anger, and upset on his face every time he saw her with Eddie? It isn't like Barry was doing a good job hiding his feelings. This and Iris not recognizing Barry in The Flash suit or Barry telling her that he was The Flash were the main weaknesses of the first season.

[BeautifulFlower]

17 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I was wondering during my re-watch of the season one; if Iris really was Barry's best friend, how come she never noticed the jealousy, anger, and upset on his face every time he saw her with Eddie? It isn't like Barry was doing a good job hiding his feelings. This and Iris not recognizing Barry in The Flash suit or Barry telling her that he was The Flash were the main weaknesses of the first season.

Actually, it is possible to be oblivious to stuff like that. Barry and Iris were completely oblivious to their behavior on the double date with Eddie and Linda. 

Iris not recognizing Barry as the Flash is just poor writing. This is a superhero show on the CW and they love to use the trope of the love interest not knowing the hero's identity. I hated that.

Barry not telling her was poor writing as well. Not only because of the trope but also because it was misogynistic. He let Joe tell him who can't tell his secret. The secret was Barry's not Joe. Barry is a grown man and if he wanted to tell Iris, he should've. Joe wasn't the boss of him. Just like Iris is a grown woman and has shown she can handle herself. I hated that writing. They treated her like a baby. Again, Barry didn't have to follow Joe's orders. Joe would've been mad, but he would've gotten over it.

[Trini]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Iris not recognizing Barry as the Flash is just poor writing. This is a superhero show on the CW and they love to use the trope of the love interest not knowing the hero's identity. I hated that.

It's definitely a comic book trope. For me, I can just roll with it because that's what's needed for these stories to work.

I agree that not letting Iris in on Barry's secret was poor writing. In this case, it especially bad because 1) the close relationship that Barry & Iris had (if Iris were a stranger or had no prior relationship, it'd be different), and 2) at one point she was the only one in the cast outside the loop. You can do a secret identity story, but it works much better when it's balanced.

[Trini]

I pretty sure I've said this before, but I wouldn't have minded Iris not knowing as much, if they had done more with Iris/Flash (the old 'two person love triangle' trope).

[SevenStars]

2 hours ago, Trini said:

I pretty sure I've said this before, but I wouldn't have minded Iris not knowing as much, if they had done more with Iris/Flash (the old 'two person love triangle' trope).

I would have enjoyed that but I think it would have damaged Iris and Barry's relationship.