Relationships: Speed Dating

[Starry]

In the s1 crossover.

 

20 hours ago, ruby24 said:

I've seen it. It's pretty bad that they cut this, considering the almost total lack of intimate scenes these two get.

On the bright side, after skipping over their first time, a post-speedforce reunion, and a love scene post-wedding, I suppose it's good that there was somebody who thought that implied sex was called for between them after him getting out of prison at least. That could possibly be a sign that there may be some kind of bed scenes in the future for them, if the network doesn't cut it.

Or the writers won't be inspired to write this kind of scenes anymore since they tend to be cut or edited in a way that downplays their chemistry.

I agree that whoever has final say needs to get over their bias because those cut scenes were two of their best for s4. I am upset that the other one got cut as well because it showed Iris acknowledging that she was out of line in the church scene (since Olicity fans like to use that moment to crap on Iris and call her a hypocrite for being upset that Felicity interrupted her spur of the moment ceremony...). 

 

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I remember Felicity telling Barry that he was "clueless" about Caitlin's feelings for him. It was completely apropos of nothing and ridiculous, like most Snowbarry baiting, but it was there.

Cisco also commented on how nobody had made Caitlin that mad since Ronnie. And Linda asked Barry if Caitlin was his girlfriend. But SB is obviously the result of the amazing unexpected chemistry between the actors, it's not like they used the dialogue to beg the viewers to see potential in that ship *sarcasm*

 

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Well this is yummy. So naturally, they had to delete it. Can't depict a black woman being loved and desired by the leading man, especially in a season when they had banned the white self-insert's love life. If Caitlin has to be sexless, then by gawd, Iris will be too.

I'm willing to ship Caitlin with a harem of non-Barry white men if that means we get to keep this kind of WestAllen scenes, lol.

[adora721]

24 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

When did Felicity tell Barry that? I don't remember that.

1x8 "Flash vs Arrow" when Caitlin is ragging on Barry again about taking too many risks, and Barry straight up shouts at Caitlin to stop treating him like he's Ronnie.  Felicity then says to Barry, "You are such a lovable dummy."  IMO, this was a sign that Fefe recognized Cait's romantic interest in Barry.

This is also the episode in which Caitlin asks Felicity if she's back in town for Barry, as in to date Barry.  Then Barry and Fefe awkwardly mention that they've looked down that road and it's a no. It wasn't any of Cait's business, but Cait just had to know.

Edited August 30, 2018 by adora721

[Trini]

On 8/30/2018 at 3:19 PM, Starry said:

I agree that whoever has final say needs to get over their bias because those cut scenes were two of their best for s4.

Plus, that 'sex for breakfast' scene was a direct callback to 3.14. Seriously, I'm gonna need names named.

[Kate45]

My question is if we will ever see the WestAllen scenes cut in seasons 1, 2, and 3? 

We at least know about the 2x03 scene, and a scene that Candice has spoken about  from 2x23. The show has only released one previously deleted WA scene from the pilot. Funny that after AJK was released from the show, Candice is heavily featured in the gag reel and 2(!!!) deleted WA scenes appear on the DVD. 

I’m ticked off that the 4x14 scene was deleted, because it was a sweet and steamy scene and because it helped to explain why Barry was in such a great mood at CCPD. But, I’ll also acknowledge that at least the scene was released at all. That’s a nice change. Now, I just hope they realize how important it is to include scenes like this on the show. We need to see our lead couple enjoying each other and having a healthy relationship outside of SL! 

[phoenics]

On 8/30/2018 at 3:08 PM, ruby24 said:

When did Felicity tell Barry that? I don't remember that.

In the episode when Barry was under the influence of Rainbow Raider.  He told Caitlin that he wasn't Ronnie and that she needed to stop treating him like he was.  Felicity called him a jerk for it - it was DEFINITELY ship teasing.  Even worse was the tease for episode 1.12.

And I have to agree with katsullivan - the ship teases for Westallen VANISHED in Season 2A.  GONE.  And they never had an episode where Patty was insecure about Iris - ever - she left that show never even knowing Iris was a threat - which NEVER happens with your main OTP couples.  You ALWAYS make sure interlopers know they have a threat looming.  But in this, Patty calls Iris Barry's sister and they don't let Iris correct her.  AJK was definitely messing with WestAllen and trying to kill it.

Additionally - in the episode where Iris gets shanked by a piece of glass Barry wasn't strong enough to stop - they DELETED THE SCENE where Barry visits her in the hospital.  Grant had to assure fans on twitter that he did indeed go see Iris at the hospital - but they deleted the scene.  WHY?  They also didn't have Iris visit Barry after Zoom nearly killed him.  WHY?

This show CONSISTENTLY drops the ball on reinforcing it's OTP pairing before finally deciding to put them together.  It's patently clear AJK was trying to let it die of starvation and probably only moved forward when forced.  Because even the ship teasing they did in S2B before Iris revealed her feelings was TRASH.  The places the direction should have put emphasis on Iris' emerging feelings they dropped.  WestAllen fans picked up on it - but most other fans were shocked Iris was telling Caitlin she was catching feelings - because the show did NOT build it up properly.

I'm still mad about it.

[adora721]

One strange thing I noticed while re-watching S2A was that Caitlin asked Barry about Patty on at least two occasions. One was after Patty had been hurt or kidnapped. However, Cait never asked how Iris was doing after being hit by the shard of car glass. On another forum, someone mentioned the deleted scene of Team Flash visiting Iris in the hospital, which would be the reason why Cait didn't ask about Iris. I thought it was weird, however, to not have put it in the script for Cait to ask about Iris like she asked about Patty. It would have been a semi-build up of a relationship between those two and not so jarring to have Iris confess to Cait her burgeoning feelings. But, per usual, the writers opted to miss another opportunity to show sympathies between the two.

[Katsullivan]

10 hours ago, phoenics said:

It's patently clear AJK was trying to let it die of starvation and probably only moved forward when forced. 

Beautiful expression that summarises everything about the Westallen agenda on this show, but especially in 2A.

10 hours ago, phoenics said:

Because even the ship teasing they did in S2B before Iris revealed her feelings was TRASH.  The places the direction should have put emphasis on Iris' emerging feelings they dropped. 

And friendly reminder that the freelance writer of Trajectory said that the Westallen shippy moments were deleted out of her submitted script. 

So it wasn't that the ship teasing was not done - it was that the ship teasing was removed. 

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Beautiful expression that summarises everything about the Westallen agenda on this show, but especially in 2A.

And friendly reminder that the freelance writer of Trajectory said that the Westallen shippy moments were deleted out of her submitted script. 

So it wasn't that the ship teasing was not done - it was that the ship teasing was removed. 

I didn't know that.  Wow.  I've never seen a show sabotage its main couple so badly on purpose.  By contrast, imagine Arrow doing this to Olicity.  Or Clois.  Or any other legit, "we are going to do this" OTP.  I'd kill for a BTS book - just like on Sleepy Hollow - would have loved one.  Those writers were horrid.  And now Raven Metzner is on Iron Fist and he's doing the same BS with the CANONICAL story with Misty Knight and Iron Fist - they've erased it in favor of a relationship with Colleen.  

I love WestAllen, but even I can admit it's been shortchanged and not written as well as it could have been.  I mourn that.  I've been watching Roswell (the 1999 version) and Max/Liz were given better shipping moments even when the show was determined to wallpaper Liz in S2.  But when they were "all in" for Max/Liz in S1, their shippy moments were simply out of this world.  It's literally only CP/GG's chemistry that has kept WestAllen afloat - without that, AJK/DP would have been successful in killing it off.

Edited September 9, 2018 by phoenics

[DearEvette]

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

I didn't know that.  Wow.  I've never seen a show sabotage its main couple so badly on purpose.  By contrast, imagine Arrow doing this to Olicity. 

Arrow did manage sabotage their OTP couple successfully, though.  Laurel's Black Canary is the canonical love interest for The Arrow and she was clearly set up that way when the show first began.  But that got all turned around and Felicity became the leading lady.  In the comics she is a minor character who has never had any sort of romantic relationship with Oliver. 

For WestAllen fans, 2A is hard to watch. I remember being resigned that she was gonna go the way of Laurel.  Also, I remember being on twitter and Iris fans being pissed to the point of counting how many lines of dialogue she had in any given episode and calling out the CW.  The course correct on 2B was so noticeable that I can't help but think that no matter what AJK was trying to pull, that he got reined in finally and luckily neither Cailtin nor Patty managed to become Felicity 2.0.

Funny you mention Sleepy Hollow because Sam Chalsen was an EP on SH and one of the ones I hold responsible for the mess it became.  Him and Meztner both.  When I read that Metzner was on Iron Fist and that they were messing up  the Misty canon I wasn't the least bit surprised.

[BeautifulFlower]

I'm reading what Candice said at HVFF.

Spoiler

We already knew that Iris/Nora will have a rocky relationship. Today, at the con, Candice said Nora doesn't like iris at all and the first 6 episodes will be rough for them. 

With that, I got to say this. What is with the writers and female relationships on this show? 

[adora721]

4 hours ago, DearEvette said:

The course correct on 2B was so noticeable that I can't help but think that no matter what AJK was trying to pull, that he got reined in finally and luckily neither Cailtin nor Patty managed to become Felicity 2.0.

See, I still think AJK still had something up his sleeve because his interview before 4A had him saying, "Speaking to Entertainment Weekly, executive producer Andrew Kreisberg revealed that although the two are "finally" getting married next season, it's not going to be the smoothest of rides. "They are finally going to get married this season and then it's going to be, can they stay married with everything that's coming up against them?" he teased."  

When I heard him say this, my Spider senses were tingling; he was still up to something rotten. Thankfully, he was fired before he could do more damage. 

[adora721]

14 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I'm reading what Candice said at HVFF.

  Reveal hidden contents

We already knew that Iris/Nora will have a rocky relationship. Today, at the con, Candice said Nora doesn't like iris at all and the first 6 episodes will be rough for them. 

With that, I got to say this. What is with the writers and female relationships on this show? 

If they make it so that Nora 

Spoiler

Spoiler

Has a great "motherly" relationship with Caitlin, I will be livid! They wrote Nora in S4 to be non-too pleased with Caitlin, so they better not retcon that.

 

[Katsullivan]

@adora721You know, sometimes I read this stuff and I’m like — ok, this is veering closely into conspiracy theory paranoia. Then I remember shows like Twisted & Sleepy Hollow — and I’m like “No, Kat. This is veering close to reality.”

 

On 09/09/2018 at 8:34 AM, phoenics said:

I didn't know that.  Wow.

It's somewhere on this thread or the Race thread, I'm sure. The freelance writer gave an interview in a podcast where she talked about how she was a big Westallen fan and she had a lot of Westallen stuff in her original draft that was excised. It's interesting, really... 

 

19 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Arrow did manage sabotage their OTP couple successfully, though.

Arrow was an anomaly, imo. I don’t believe they set out to sabotage their OTP. If anything, I feel that they were so confident in it that they tried to be too creative, and it backfired in ways they didn’t expect. Then throw in the fact that the choice for leading lady was very unpopular with the fandom for some reason — and the leading man was pushing for the fandom preferred ship — their hands were tied. I do think it’s interesting how they’ve chosen to write Felicity and Olicity since it became canon, and some of their decisions e.g. making Laurel such a significant part of the 100th Episode - indicate something….

 

 

YET. YET. Arrow definitely showed Berlanti-verse that it could be done. That by applying certain pressures in the narrative and behind the scene, you can derail a show OTP. And yes again with the maybe-paranoia/maybe-reality but I strongly believe that they had this “it doesn’t have to last” in mind when they cast the Flash’s leading lady as a black girl. 

[adora721]

On 9/10/2018 at 9:29 AM, Katsullivan said:

Arrow definitely showed Berlanti-verse that it could be done. That by applying certain pressures in the narrative and behind the scene, you can derail a show OTP.

To me, "Arrow" had two great failures concerning its original OTP. First, the toxic setup of Oliver sleeping with Laurel's sister would have killed almost any OTP. Imagine making Lucy Lane one of Clark's early girlfriends with whom he had sexual relations and then putting him with Lois... yuck!

Then there's the problem that the casting director assumed that if you put two attractive people in a room, there'll automatically be crackling romantic chemistry.  Not so. I actually think Katie Cassidy is a decent actress and Emily Bett Rickards isn't, but Emily Bett had the better romantic chemistry with Stephen Amell. And yes, I know that chemistry it subjective. 

The media and some fans hated the setup and the audience hated the lackluster chemistry between the leads. Therefore, I don't think it took too much pressure to jettison Lauriver. 

ETA: Unfortunately, a similar lack of chemistry was the downfall of Karolsen, too.

Edited September 13, 2018 by adora721

[DearEvette]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

I don’t believe they set out to sabotage their OTP. If anything, I feel that they were so confident in it that they tried to be too creative, and it backfired in ways they didn’t expect.

YET. YET. Arrow definitely showed Berlanti-verse that it could be done.

Yes. I agree they did not expect it.  I should have said they inadvertently sabotaged their OTP.  I believe that they felt that simply casting a character named 'Laurel Lance' that they'd thought they'd have the luxury to play with the ship.   But they underestimated the lack of chemistry between their pair  Also, I have to admit, while I had no particular animus toward KC or Laurel, the writing did her no favors.  Her writing was humorless and lackluster and no matter how good an actress KC is (and yes, I believe she is a better actress than EBR who I think is a collection of tics) she still couldn't rise above her material.

The usurpation of Laurel by Felicity definitely felt like mde the possibility tat Iris would be shuffled off a real threat.  As you point out, they had already set the precedent so she was never safe just because she was Iris west.  But unlike KC, Candice was able to shine past some of the more questionable writing for her character and she and Grant had loads more chemistry than KC/SA had.

[Trini]

21 hours ago, DearEvette said:

The usurpation of Laurel by Felicity definitely felt like mde the possibility tat Iris would be shuffled off a real threat.  As you point out, they had already set the precedent so she was never safe just because she was Iris west.  But unlike KC, Candice was able to shine past some of the more questionable writing for her character and she and Grant had loads more chemistry than KC/SA had.

I feel like in some way it's the opposite. What happened with Arrow, showed them what they did not want to happen with The Flash. Hence the chemistry testing, and very different set-up of the central romance, etc. Maybe Iris wasn't 100% 'safe', but I think she was safer than most. After all, Barry & Iris are still the only main pairing (in current DCTV) that was introduced in the pilot, and is still going strong.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Trini
to clarify

[phoenics]

12 hours ago, adora721 said:

If they make it so that Nora 

  Hide contents

  Hide contents

Has a great "motherly" relationship with Caitlin, I will be livid! They wrote Nora in S4 to be non-too pleased with Caitlin, so they better not retcon that.

 

This is such bullshit.  I swear to God if they do that (part 2 of your spoiler) I will be so angry I could spit - since that would be deliberate shit teasing.  And no that's not a typo.  All I know is that I don't want to see Iris just lying down and taking it - and never standing up for herself.  

I just watched the S4 premiere where Caitlin only apologizes to Joe about Cecile and him and NEVER mentions Iris at all and I'm mad all over again. That is COMPLETELY deliberate on the part of the writers and it's really not cool.  Caitlin apologized to everyone BUT Iris.  What kind of mess is that?

[adora721]

On 9/10/2018 at 4:16 PM, DearEvette said:

and no matter how good an actress KC is (and yes, I believe she is a better actress than EBR who I think is a collection of tics) she still couldn't rise above her material.

Never heard EBR's "acting" described that way; well done!

On 9/10/2018 at 8:48 PM, phoenics said:

I just watched the S4 premiere where Caitlin only apologizes to Joe about Cecile and him and NEVER mentions Iris at all and I'm mad all over again. That is COMPLETELY deliberate on the part of the writers and it's really not cool.  Caitlin apologized to everyone BUT Iris.  What kind of mess is that?

Technically, she really made non-apologies. In 3x23, she says to Cisco and Barry, "I'm sorry about HR."  That's a non-specific apology. It's not like HR ended up dead by accident or without a lot of help from Caitlin's Killer Frost. Notice she didn't give a more specific, "I'm sorry about my part in HR's death. " She didn't even apologize to Cisco and Barry for her attempts to kill them.

Giving Joe another non-specific, "Sorry" was another weak non-apology. Exactly what was she sorry about? Good apologies, real apologies are specific. And the last time I checked, Joe wasn't elected as the representative for either Cecile or Iris. 

So, the writers just gave her these non-specific, generic non-apologies and with that, Caitlin Frost's slate was wiped clean.

Even Ralph admitted to Iris that he was wrong for saying she never put her life on the line. That was more of an apology than anything out of Caitlin Frost's mouth.

Edited September 13, 2018 by adora721

[adora721]

14 hours ago, phoenics said:

This is such bullshit.  I swear to God if they do that (part 2 of your spoiler) I will be so angry I could spit - since that would be deliberate shit teasing.  And no that's not a typo.  All I know is that I don't want to see Iris just lying down and taking it - and never standing up for herself.  

I just watched the S4 premiere where Caitlin only apologizes to Joe about Cecile and him and NEVER mentions Iris at all and I'm mad all over again. That is COMPLETELY deliberate on the part of the writers and it's really not cool.  Caitlin apologized to everyone BUT Iris.  What kind of mess is that?

My hope is that Nora will turn to Cecile. Now that there are more women on the show, Nora has more options for who she can trust to giver her motherly advice and guidance.

[phoenics]

11 hours ago, adora721 said:

Never heard EBR's "acting"described that way; well done!

Technically, she really made non-apologies. In 3x23, she says to Cisco and Barry, "I'm sorry about HR."  That's a non-specific apology. It's not like HR ended up dead by accident or without a lot of help from Caitlin's Killer Frost. Notice she didn't give a more specific, "I'm sorry about my part in HR's death. " She didn't even apologize to Cisco and Barry for her attempts to kill them.

Giving Joe another non-specific, "Sorry" was another weak non-apology. Exactly what was she sorry about? Good apologies, real apologies are specific. And the last time I checked, Joe wasn't elected as the representative for either Cecile or Iris. 

So, the writers just gave her these non-specific, generic non-apologies and with that, Caitlin Frost's slate was wiped clean.

Even Ralph admitted to Iris that he was wrong for saying she never put her life on the line. That was more of an apology than anything out of Caitlin Frost's mouth.

Yes - but when Caitlin apologized to Joe - she referenced him AND Cecile and NEVER mentioned Iris at all in her apology.  So even if she was using Joe as the representative she still didn't include Iris.  The writers literally just left it out - it's like they couldn't stomach Caitlin apologizing to a black woman for trying to get her killed.  I swear I should tweet about that everytime the show comes on.  Episode #blah since Caitlin tried to kill Iris with Savitar without an apology for it.

9 hours ago, adora721 said:

My hope is that Nora will turn to Cecile. Now that there are more women on the show, Nora has more options for who she can trust to giver her motherly advice and guidance.

I hope she does too - or Joe.  I'll be apoplectic otherwise.

[Starry]

If these writers were consistent they'd follow through with the look Nora gave Caitlin in 4x15 but since Cait is the queen of retcons I have no idea what to expect w.r.t. her history with Westallen's baby.

 

On 11/9/2018 at 2:04 AM, Trini said:

I feel like in some way it's the opposite. What happened with Arrow, showed them what they did not want to happen with The Flash. Hence the chemistry testing, and very different set-up of the central romance, etc. Maybe Iris wasn't 100% 'safe', but I think she was safer than most. After all, Barry & Iris are still the only main pairing (in current DCTV) that was introduced in the pilot, and is still going strong.

To me the fact that Barry + Iris is their only pilot OTP that is still going strong actually proves how un-safe Iris was. Lauriver is not the anomaly. Apparently Westallen is. I remain of the opinion that if DP or Shantel had better chemistry with Grant and their characters were much more popular than Iris Candice would have lost the female lead spot, comics and set-up be damned.

Does anyone know if Grant and Candice were the only ones who did a chemistry test? Because SA and KC didn't but what about the actors for the other Arrowverse main romances? I mean Karolsen on Supergirl and the Hawks on Legends of Tomorrow.

On Arrow for me the problem has always been SA and his lack of charisma. I find him such a wooden lead I haven't been able to see chemistry between him and anybody. IMO Oliver and Felicity appear to have better chemistry than Oliver and Laurel because EBR, while not the greatest actress, is charismatic enough to make the pairing tolerable and has a much easier character than KC. The very few times Oliver and Laurel had lighter interactions I didn't see much difference between them and Olicity in the chemistry department.

[Kate45]

3 hours ago, Starry said:

If these writers were consistent they'd follow through with the look Nora gave Caitlin in 4x15 but since Cait is the queen of retcons I have no idea what to expect w.r.t. her history with Westallen's baby.

 

To me the fact that Barry + Iris is their only pilot OTP that is still going strong actually proves how un-safe Iris was. Lauriver is not the anomaly. Apparently Westallen is. I remain of the opinion that if DP or Shantel had better chemistry with Grant and their characters were much more popular than Iris Candice would have lost the female lead spot, comics and set-up be damned.

Does anyone know if Grant and Candice were the only ones who did a chemistry test? Because SA and KC didn't but what about the actors for the other Arrowverse main romances? I mean Karolsen on Supergirl and the Hawks on Legends of Tomorrow.

On Arrow for me the problem has always been SA and his lack of charisma. I find him such a wooden lead I haven't been able to see chemistry between him and anybody. IMO Oliver and Felicity appear to have better chemistry than Oliver and Laurel because EBR, while not the greatest actress, is charismatic enough to make the pairing tolerable and has a much easier character than KC. The very few times Oliver and Laurel had lighter interactions I didn't see much difference between them and Olicity in the chemistry department.

Some of my thoughts: Barry and Iris have a VERY solid relationship in the comics. It’s one of the most solid relationships in all of the comics, including Marvel and DC. Even in the comics, Iris is connected to Barry’s powers and they’ve been married for 40 or 50 years and have never divorced. Based on their marriage/relationship an entire family has been bulit, including future Flashes. 

On the other hand, Green Arrow and Black Canary have a very tumultuous relationship in the comics. For example, they have married and divorced. Green Arrow has cheated on Black Canary. They both have children, but none with each other. They could have played with that aspect, but they chose not to do it. It’s certainly not because they don’t like relationship drama...

It’s my understanding that both Karolsen and the Hawks had a chemistry tests. Ciera Renee even tried for the role of Iris, but I’m not sure how far she made it in the process. I read once that she did a chemistry test with Grant, but I don’t remember where. I think SG backed off the Karolsen love story because they didn’t like the racist backlash, plus many people felt the actors had no chemistry. The Hawks were booted so fast, and the writers never seem to be sold on that love story. Kendra had several boyfriends in the course of season 1, and she was introduced because she was dating Cisco. It was a strange way to tell a love story. It certainly feels like the only group of writers semi-committed to the original OTP love story were the Flash writers. I give them major props for not (up to this point at least) making the WestAllen relationship drama-filled. 

I agree that WestAllen may have been on shaky ground at one point, but I also think the showrunners would have also had an issue in the licensing department as well if they wanted to pair Barry with someone else long term.

I also think to an extent that we have to consider the position of the leading male actors. It’s been reported that KC and SA didn’t get along at first, but they seem fine now. Whereas, he got along well with EBR from the start. So, when they were ready to switch the storyline from Laurel/Oliver to Felicity/Oliver, I don’t think he fought it. Grant and Candice have always gotten along, from my understanding. Plus, we know that he advocated for WestAllen to happen faster than producers were originally planning. So, I think that may have played a part as well. 

[adora721]

15 hours ago, phoenics said:

Yes - but when Caitlin apologized to Joe - she referenced him AND Cecile and NEVER mentioned Iris at all in her apology.  So even if she was using Joe as the representative she still didn't include Iris.  The writers literally just left it out - it's like they couldn't stomach Caitlin apologizing to a black woman for trying to get her killed.  I swear I should tweet about that everytime the show comes on.  Episode #blah since Caitlin tried to kill Iris with Savitar without an apology for it.

On 9/11/2018 at 11:06 AM, adora721 said:

Had to rewatch it; you're absolutely right about her mentioning "the things I did to you, to Cecile..." Thanks for correcting me.

What's also interesting is Caitlin says, "I did", not Killer Frost did. Caitlin is taking responsibility for the evil done by Killer Frost; that's an admission of conscious guilt by Caitlin herself. 

You should blast the writers daily for this on Twitter if you want to; this is so anti-feminist and anti-progressive for a woman not to apologize onscreen to the women she tried to kill. Additionally, what kind of lesson is the lack of an apology teaching the young children watching the show? Surely this "family show" isn't teaching that it's OK to try to murder someone and then never admit you're sorry for it.

ETA: I keep waiting for someone to ask about the lack of a Caitlin apology at one of the major conventions in front of the cast, producers, and media, but it never comes up.

Edited September 12, 2018 by adora721

[SevenStars]

Honestly, I think the reason the writers didn't have Caitlin apologize to Iris or have anyone mention the fact Caitlin tried to help kill Iris is because they wanted the audience to forget about that part of  the story. It's easier to whitewash Caitline and keep it moving if the characters act like Caitline never did what we witness her do. They think they are helping the character by doing this. But I think it makes the character bland and uninteresting because these things can add layers to the character if explored and other characters are allow to act accordingly. So instead of helping the character, I think it's hurting the character's development. 

[Trini]

5 hours ago, Starry said:

If these writers were consistent they'd follow through with the look Nora gave Caitlin in 4x15 but since Cait is the queen of retcons I have no idea what to expect w.r.t. her history with Westallen's baby.

My plan is to set expectations to zero, and mostly ignore whatever they do with Caitlin.

 

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

Some of my thoughts: Barry and Iris have a VERY solid relationship in the comics. It’s one of the most solid relationships in all of the comics, including Marvel and DC. Even in the comics, Iris is connected to Barry’s powers and they’ve been married for 40 or 50 years and have never divorced. Based on their marriage/relationship an entire family has been bulit, including future Flashes. 

On the other hand, Green Arrow and Black Canary have a very tumultuous relationship in the comics. For example, they have married and divorced. Green Arrow has cheated on Black Canary. They both have children, but none with each other. They could have played with that aspect, but they chose not to do it. It’s certainly not because they don’t like relationship drama...

...

I agree that WestAllen may have been on shaky ground at one point, but I also think the showrunners would have also had an issue in the licensing department as well if they wanted to pair Barry with someone else long term.

I think even besides their stories in the comics, the relative positions of the characters in the DC 'universe' is a factor. Green Arrow was a C-list character (and only the TV show raised his profile), and the show started out clearly doing a different take on him, his world, and related characters. Plus being influenced by the Nolan Batman trilogy. GA's not that well-known, so they could play around, and not feel they had to follow his comic stories. The Flash, on the other hand, is an A-lister (only just under the trinity of Batman/Superman/Wonder Woman), and since he's more well-known, there are certain expectations. It might be better to stick to what people are familiar with. - Although this Barry Allen version does have several key differences from his comic counterpart, anyway.

I don't know about licensing; but I agree that pairing Barry up with someone else might have raised other issues. Related to DC, I don't think the show could have had a Flash family poster, or Tornado Twins with another love interest. They're Barry Allen's descendants, but also Iris West's descendants. The showrunners would have wanted to bring in those future speedsters eventually. [But who knows, of course. Maybe DC would have let them change the origins of more minor characters?]

And related to relationships: I think if they had decided to have Barry be with someone else, he might not even be married by Season 5 - which also might have delayed any speedster children. They would have drawn things out longer, and had more drama - breakups, even more temp love interests, etc. Since Barry & Iris already had a foundation from the start, they moved things along pretty quickly. (I've always thought they should have had them as boyfriend/girlfriend a bit longer before getting engaged.)

 

Quote

I also think to an extent that we have to consider the position of the leading male actors. It’s been reported that KC and SA didn’t get along at first, but they seem fine now. Whereas, he got along well with EBR from the start. So, when they were ready to switch the storyline from Laurel/Oliver to Felicity/Oliver, I don’t think he fought it. Grant and Candice have always gotten along, from my understanding. Plus, we know that he advocated for WestAllen to happen faster than producers were originally planning. So, I think that may have played a part as well. 

He's told the story several times, but Grant was also an important part of Candice getting the job in the first place. So I'm guessing (guessing!) he has a bit of a personal stake in seeing the WestAllen story play out.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, SevenStars said:

But I think it makes the character bland and uninteresting because these things can add layers to the character if explored and other characters are allow to act accordingly. So instead of helping the character, I think it's hurting the character's development. 

Completely agree with the above.

The writers dedicated an entire episode to Iris and Caitlin developing a real, deeper, and not just "work friends" relationship, but left out this key ingredient to mend fences, foster good will, and make this friendship actually believable. The writers are undermining their own story. 

[Starry]

2 hours ago, Kate45 said:

It certainly feels like the only group of writers semi-committed to the original OTP love story were the Flash writers. I give them major props for not (up to this point at least) making the WestAllen relationship drama-filled. 

I give them credit for not making it drama-filled but I can't ignore how much they were shortchanged in the romance department, between the deleted scenes and the sidelining of Iris' POV they could have done much better. I guess in their minds less drama also means less relationship moments but at the same time it's telling that Barry had enjoyable uninterrupted dates with Linda and Patty, sang karaoke with Caitlin but every Westallen date had to be interrupted by something. Speaking of, I'm still pressed that they made their first date boring. It made no sense and didn't do justice to their history as BFFs.

I'm glad they're married but marriage shouldn't be the end point. They got little to no romance scenes after Barry got out of prison, with 4x15 being the exception and that's the episode where they point out they haven't been able to enjoy their married life because of Team Flash obligations. It seems to me there was more romance in s3, which was the darker season than in s4, the so-called lighter season.

I hope they do better in s5, not just with Westallen but with the team members in general. I want to see them have some fun. That's what made s1 enjoyable not the cringworthy humor they pushed in s4 /rant over.

 

3 hours ago, Kate45 said:

I agree that WestAllen may have been on shaky ground at one point, but I also think the showrunners would have also had an issue in the licensing department as well if they wanted to pair Barry with someone else long term.

I'm sure comic canon/licensing played a part but I don't believe for one second they were the only reason Westallen mantained its OTP status. It must have been a combination of that, chemistry, audience reception and, as you said, the male lead preferring it to the other Barry ships. Comic canon didn't stop the showrunners of the 90's TV show from writing off Iris in the first season. And if DC were so invested in protecting Westallen, at no point they would have been on shaky ground/in danger.

[Kate45]

24 minutes ago, Starry said:

I'm sure comic canon/licensing played a part but I don't believe for one second they were the only reason Westallen mantained its OTP status. It must have been a combination of that, chemistry, audience reception and, as you said, the male lead preferring it to the other Barry ships. Comic canon didn't stop the showrunners of the 90's TV show from writing off Iris in the first season. And if DC were so invested in protecting Westallen, at no point they would have been on shaky ground/in danger.

When I say shaky ground, I really just mean that it may have taken longer for them to get together. I don’t actually think there was any danger of Barry ultimately marrying anyone else or ending up permanently with anyone else. Again, because of the licensing issue. 

The licensing thing is weird. Even with the 90’s show, I don’t know that they had permission to use the character of Iris from the beginning. For example, Smallville wasn’t allowed to use the character of Lois Lane at the start of the show. Even once she joined the show, the show wasn’t allowed to put Lois and Clark together for a couple of seasons because DC said no. Interestingly, Arrow approached DC about an Olicity baby. They have rejected the idea of giving Olicity a baby at this point. It may change in the future. On the other hand, DC/WB asked Flash to give Barry and Iris a child. 

I just find licensing with essentially rented characters to be fascinating! 

[marihunc]

1 hour ago, Kate45 said:

The licensing thing is weird. Even with the 90’s show, I don’t know that they had permission to use the character of Iris from the beginning.

Actually, Iris was there in the 90's Flash pilot as Barry's girlfriend - and then broke up with him, never to be seen in any other episodes.

[Kate45]

2 hours ago, marihunc said:

Actually, Iris was there in the 90's Flash pilot as Barry's girlfriend - and then broke up with him, never to be seen in any other episodes.

Yes, I know that she made a brief apprerance.  Her sudden disappearance for the rest of season/series is why I think they didn’t have permission for her to be on the show or for them to be together at that point in the series. Similar to Smallville and how long they had to wait to bring Lois onto the show. That’s just a guess in reference to the 90s show, as I have never done research on that show with regards to licensing. 

[Velocity23]

On 10. 9. 2018 at 6:29 PM, Katsullivan said:

@adora721You know, sometimes I read this stuff and I’m like — ok, this is veering closely into conspiracy theory paranoia. Then I remember shows like Twisted & Sleepy Hollow — and I’m like “No, Kat. This is veering close to reality.”

 

It's somewhere on this thread or the Race thread, I'm sure. The freelance writer gave an interview in a podcast where she talked about how she was a big Westallen fan and she had a lot of Westallen stuff in her original draft that was excised. It's interesting, really... 

 

Arrow was an anomaly, imo. I don’t believe they set out to sabotage their OTP. If anything, I feel that they were so confident in it that they tried to be too creative, and it backfired in ways they didn’t expect. Then throw in the fact that the choice for leading lady was very unpopular with the fandom for some reason — and the leading man was pushing for the fandom preferred ship — their hands were tied. I do think it’s interesting how they’ve chosen to write Felicity and Olicity since it became canon, and some of their decisions e.g. making Laurel such a significant part of the 100th Episode - indicate something….

 

 

YET. YET. Arrow definitely showed Berlanti-verse that it could be done. That by applying certain pressures in the narrative and behind the scene, you can derail a show OTP. And yes again with the maybe-paranoia/maybe-reality but I strongly believe that they had this “it doesn’t have to last” in mind when they cast the Flash’s leading lady as a black girl. 

Is the 100th Arrow episode really interesting? Or just a result when Andrew Kreisberg managed to have a 100th episode that focus on KC.  Which could have easily happened on the Flash if Kreisberg would have stayed on.Just like he managed to keep her of the crossovers until the one in last year. 

I

[Katsullivan]

1 hour ago, Velocity23 said:

Is the 100th Arrow episode really interesting? Or just a result when Andrew Kreisberg managed to have a 100th episode that focus on KC.  Which could have easily happened on the Flash if Kreisberg would have stayed on.Just like he managed to keep her of the crossovers until the one in last year. 

 

It's interesting that a landmark episode focused on the show's original OTP, and not Olicity, especially since it depicted that life as Oliver's "wish-come-true".

On 12/09/2018 at 7:32 AM, Starry said:

To me the fact that Barry + Iris is their only pilot OTP that is still going strong actually proves how un-safe Iris was. Lauriver is not the anomaly. Apparently Westallen is.

This is important. 

[lemotomato]

34 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

It's interesting that a landmark episode focused on the show's original OTP, and not Olicity, especially since it depicted that life as Oliver's "wish-come-true".

Actually, the way EPs described the episode was “what could have been”, as in “this is what would have happened if Oliver didn’t get on the boat”. 

(Not sure why discussion of Arrow is happening in a Flash relationship thread)

[Katsullivan]

3 hours ago, lemotomato said:

Actually, the way EPs described the episode was “what could have been”, as in “this is what would have happened if Oliver didn’t get on the boat”. 

 

“what could have been” and “wish come true” aren’t exclusive by any definition. And we’re still left to deal with the fact that the EPs hinged a landmark episode on their Pilot OTP* and not the “present” OTP. They could easily have crafted the episode with Olicity still happening and pushed the “in every timeline, we find each other” fated-forever theme but they chose not to. Much the same as they had X-Oliver and X-Kara be lovers in the crossover, showing they cared little for Karamel and Olicity.  

 

 

*(Which by the way, is what this discussion is about: how Westallen has fared compared to other pilot/original OTPs in the Berlanti-verse and how it’s ended up being an outlier, which depending on your "glass half empty or half full" outlook in life might be regarded as good or bad thing). 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Katsullivan

[Trini]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

On 9/12/2018 at 7:32 AM, Starry said:

To me the fact that Barry + Iris is their only pilot OTP that is still going strong actually proves how un-safe Iris was. Lauriver is not the anomaly. Apparently Westallen is.

This is important. 

I somewhat disagree. WestAllen is only an "anomaly" only when compared to the other (3, 4 if you want to include Gotham) DCTV shows. The vast majority of TV shows with a main pairing set-up stay with that main pairing.

Maybe the real issue is why the other shows seem to need to routinely change up the central relationships. But this may be a CW thing as well. (I'm only familiar with a few other shows and their details, so I can't say for sure.)

[SevenStars]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I somewhat disagree. WestAllen is only an "anomaly" only when compared to the other (3, 4 if you want to include Gotham) DCTV shows. The vast majority of TV shows with a main pairing set-up stay with that main pairing.

Maybe the real issue is why the other shows seem to need to routinely change up the central relationships. But this may be a CW thing as well. (I'm only familiar with a few other shows and their details, so I can't say for sure.)

I think it might be a CW thing cause they seem to be more open to fans response than some other networks. They are willing to change directions if a great amount of fans make lots of noise, couple with the media encouraging or endorsing those fans. I think that's one of the reason Snowbarry fans had so much confidence and hope in getting what they wanted. Also why Iris West/Westallen fans were loud about their support for Iris/Westallen out of the gate.

[Velocity23]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

“what could have been” and “wish come true” aren’t exclusive by any definition. And we’re still left to deal with the fact that the EPs hinged a landmark episode on their Pilot OTP* and not the “present” OTP. They could easily have crafted the episode with Olicity still happening and pushed the “in every timeline, we find each other” fated-forever theme but they chose not to. Much the same as they had X-Oliver and X-Kara be lovers in the crossover, showing they cared little for Karamel and Olicity.  

 

 

*(Which by the way, is what this discussion is about: how Westallen has fared compared to other pilot/original OTPs in the Berlanti-verse and how it’s ended up being an outlier, which depending on your "glass half empty or half full" outlook in life might be regarded as good or bad thing). 

Well the first Arrowverse show changed how the following shows were handled in doing a chemistry test. Not just relaying on the pretty or because the actress had a contract with the network and could choose whatever show she wanted. 

I am not sure the whole X-Earth regarding Westallen was handled correctly just because the showrunners didnt want to repeat evil Barry storyline. Especially since the initial plan was for the 3 leads of the show to voice the nazi characters. Just like with Olicity there would be no Westallen on Earth X. But they want to keep that Barry and Iris are meant to be in every universe that they completely remove them from that story. They put realism also in how Sara was killed by her own father because she was a bisexual. 

[Katsullivan]

15 hours ago, Velocity23 said:

I am not sure the whole X-Earth regarding Westallen was handled correctly just because the showrunners didnt want to repeat evil Barry storyline. Especially since the initial plan was for the 3 leads of the show to voice the nazi characters. Just like with Olicity there would be no Westallen on Earth X. But they want to keep that Barry and Iris are meant to be in every universe that they completely remove them from that story. They put realism also in how Sara was killed by her own father because she was a bisexual. 

Well Savitar wanted to kill Iris... but they still managed to give a "Westallen"-esque vibe to their 2 face-to-face encounters, and basically changed/explained Savitar's motivations were about not getting Iris. So they could still have done an evil Nazi!Barry (and he didn't have to be evil any more than Winn was evil) without compromising the "in every universe, they're meant to be". 

 

And all that aside (whether Nazi!Barry was scrapped because he'd be Savitar 2.0 or because the writers didn't want to "sully" Westallen) ---- it's still the writers being OK with "sullying" Olicity and Karamel, the OTPs of their other shows, in a way they didn't want to risk with Westallen.

Nazi!Oliver and Nazi!Kara didn't have to be in love. They could have been non-romantic partners-in-evil; they could have been husband and wife with an "I admire your dedication to the Aryan Supremacist Agenda ---- but show any weakness or flaw, and I will happily murder you" relationship, with Oliver wanting to cure Overgirl because they needed their best Nazi weapon, not because he was so lovey-dovey over his wife that her death broke his concentration mid-fight.

 

(This is really weird. I'm usually not the one defending the writing for Westallen.)

[adora721]

I found an early DP interview, Oct. 22, 2014, that discusses some of what she thought Caitlin thought about Iris and Barry in the early days: https://za.ign.com/the-flash-cw/84949/feature/the-flash-danielle-panabaker-on-caitlins-tragic-past-and-the

Something I didn't know is that DP believed that Caitlin was jealous of Iris because of the romantic attention Iris had. Also, at the start, DP anticipated a deepening friendship between the two women:

"Question: What does Caitlin make of Iris?

Panabaker: There’s a really awesome scene in the beginning of episode five, I think, where a whole host of us go out for drinks together which I think is really fun. I’m not sure we’re done exploring what the social dynamic is like between all of them. I think she might be a little jealous of Iris and all the attention she’s getting from the boys because Eddie’s no schlub. Let’s be honest. But they have a bond, in that they both care about Barry and I think that’s something that you will see more of as time goes on but you know. They’re two smart ladies. I think they’re going to respect each other. Have a bottle of wine together or something!" If the writers had used that  jealousy as a reason for trying to kill Iris in S3, that would made some sense in the KF story. Or if they had made the two spend time together, a friendship would also have been believable. What went so wrong?!

DP believed Caitlin's feelings of grief were displaced on Barry:

"It’s a really tough thing and it’s hard for her, she’s having a hard time letting go again and she’s displacing some of her grief on to Barry..." This could be interpreted as her burgeoning attraction to or excessive concern for Barry was just a replacement for her real feelings for Ronnie. This could have also added to the jealousy aspect since Iris had Barry and Caitlin lost Ronnie.

And we learn that despite DP's crack about Iris having no life outside of Star Labs, here's what DP said about Caitlin early on:

"Panabaker: I always joke with Andrew that Caitlin loves being in the warmth and safety of Star Labs. So I would imagine that that’s a possibility. We have a lot of TV to tell, so you never know."

[Katsullivan]

17 hours ago, adora721 said:

I think she might be a little jealous of Iris and all the attention she’s getting from the boys because Eddie’s no schlub. Let’s be honest. But they have a bond, in that they both care about Barry and I think that’s something that you will see more of as time goes on but you know. They’re two smart ladies. I think they’re going to respect each other. Have a bottle of wine together or something!

Yeah, the thing about initial!jealousy between female characters is that it's almost always the jealous character propping up the unaware character.

Unless it's a case of "mistaken identity jealousy" where the jealous character mistakes someone as a (usually romantic) rival and the other girl turns out to be her boyfriend's sister, or gay platonic best friend or ex that he dumped and never cared about in the first place. 

17 hours ago, adora721 said:

What went so wrong?!

Somewhere along the way, the writers became uncomfortable with writing a white woman propping a black woman this way. Someone needs to do a take on how the writing for black female characters tends to become more problematic as seasons go on. Writers seem to start with the "belief" for lack of a better word that they can write black people in a "neutral" way (read: like a white person with a permanent tan) but as time goes on, they fall victim to their own internalised racism.

17 hours ago, adora721 said:

she’s displacing some of her grief on to Barry..." This could be interpreted as her burgeoning attraction to or excessive concern for Barry was just a replacement for her real feelings for Ronnie.

You know, I would believe this if the show didn't have Felicity randomly calling Barry blind when he points out that this is exactly what Caitlin is doing. There's no other reason for Felicity's comment than for the writers to clarify/insinuate that Caitlin's feelings for Barry are not a projection of her feelings for Ronnie.

[phoenics]

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

 

Somewhere along the way, the writers became uncomfortable with writing a white woman propping a black woman this way. Someone needs to do a take on how the writing for black female characters tends to become more problematic as seasons go on. Writers seem to start with the "belief" for lack of a better word that they can write black people in a "neutral" way (read: like a white person with a permanent tan) but as time goes on, they fall victim to their own internalised racism.

 

All of this.  It's truly frustrating.  This is why you NEED women of color - specifically BLACK women - in the writer's room when these things are being discussed.  Because someone has to CALL IT OUT.  Honestly, I'd have SO much more respect for white male and white female writers if they actively sought out help and advice from black women writers when they are writing BLACK women and interactions with black women.  That way, they could be warned off of tropes that hit sore spots with audiences who are TIRED of seeing their unconscious and lazy (because these people NEVER self reflect to root out their issues) racism.  And they could be called on the carpet when they deviate from how they would treat a white female lead.  And I stress the advisor needs to be a black WOMAN - because some of these black male writers willingly throw their sisters under the bus to prop up supremacy.  That black male writer they hired for Sleepy Hollow in Season 3 certainly did.  Jerk.

I hate racism.  I'm so so tired of it.  Of all of it.  I'm so sick of black women having to be so much better than everyone else just to get noticed.  I'm so sick of having to go to bat for black women characters because of the racism in the writing room.  They never get fair treatment without a full on fight.

God I'm exhausted.  Some of ya'll don't know how fortunate you are to not have to fight so damn hard all the damn time.

[Katsullivan]

21 hours ago, phoenics said:

I hate racism.  I'm so so tired of it.  Of all of it.  I'm so sick of black women having to be so much better than everyone else just to get noticed.  I'm so sick of having to go to bat for black women characters because of the racism in the writing room.  They never get fair treatment without a full on fight.

God I'm exhausted.  Some of ya'll don't know how fortunate you are to not have to fight so damn hard all the damn time.

Girl. It's exhausting. I wish white people who get super-defensive when this is pointed out can understand that black women don't point out the racism and unfair treatment of black female characters because we like it. We watch these shows to escape racism, not to look for it. 

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Girl. It's exhausting. I wish white people who get super-defensive when this is pointed out can understand that black women don't point out the racism and unfair treatment of black female characters because we like it. We watch these shows to escape racism, not to look for it. 

Taking my response to the race thread.

[Trini]

So just for the record, Barry's speedster sex powers are:

• Vibration,
• Super fast recovery,
• Using 'Flashtime' so that all the sex doesn't take away time from everything else.

[Trini]

Came across this...

 

... and it reminded me how bad I felt for Cisco in this scene! I mean, he pretty much knows that this is an 'unmoveable object meets unstoppable force' situation, and there's probably nothing he could say that would get either of them to back down. He knows both of these dudes are willing to screw over whoever for the person they love, one of them is going to lose this argument, and it's going to get ugly either way. Poor Cisco!

[Trini]

Awww! Barry & Iris are so happy they are going to be/are parents! However, I assume most of the season will be disrupting that happiness. Still looking forward to that angst, though; as long as they get through it together.

---

We'll see if the writers take advantage of it at all, but I think Nora being around could really bring a fresh dynamic to all the relationships, not just Barry/Iris.

[Trini]

And another thing; we know the show has an issue with female characters interacting, so while the conversation was awkward, I'm glad there was a scene with just Iris and Nora. Hopefully there'll be more in the rest of the season.

[Trini]

The Caitlin/Cisco friendship is one of the few things that the show has been fairly consistent about. But this scene from 5.02:

... felt to me like the writers were putting it out there that they could be more than friends. Whether they go through with it or not, it seemed especially "ship bait-y".

HOWEVER, I did not agree with the dialog in the scene when Cisco says the Cynthia wasn't The One. Because shut up, writers,  she was but I get that the actress wasn't available (or whatever) and they're working with what they've got. Cisco and Cynthia were perfect together, and they could have thrived given the chance.

The part that struck me as setting up Cisco/Caitlin was when he said that "if she was the love of your life, she'd be in it" ; and who has been in his life for the whole show >> Caitlin. Now, I don't agree she's 'the love of his life', but it's a typical set-up to a romance.

Again, I don't know if the writers would actually go there or not, but if they did, I'm thinking they'd try and draw it out. I figure The Flash has at least 2 more seasons, and would they want to write another couple for the duration of the show? They're already mediocre at writing Barry/Iris as the main relationship.

[Trini]

Why does this show hate mothers?

The Iris/Nora thing looks like it might lead somewhere, but I was really surprised that Caitlin's mother only had one short scene. I don't really care about Caitlin's side plot, but it seems like a waste if that's all they're going to show of Dr. Tannhauser.

[Trini]

Speaking of parents, with the latest reveal about Cicada there's now at least 5 father/daughter pairs on the show: Barry/Nora, Caitlin/Thomas(?), Cicada/[daughter], Joe/Iris, and Joe/Jenna. I feel like only the first three will get any significant screentime and/or development, although I'm always up for more Joe/Iris.