BkWurm1 May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, doram said: Not from watching that trailer. In that trailer, Iris has no line of dialogue and appears for less than 0.1 seconds. Compare that to Barry saying things like "I knew you" to Caitlin and several such moments. Westallen has succeeded on this show despite not because of the showrunners's investment in it. No, I agree, from the original trailer, it did look like Caitlin was being set up as an option, but as MG constantly bemoans over on Arrow, he and the other show runners are not in control of the CW's trailers. They are in charge of things like the sizzle reel they put together, but the week to week trailers are totally out of their hands. So likely since DP was the better known name, some idiot in PR ran with it and created a false impression which I really felt was corrected in show by like the second episode. Still, stuff like that lingers. Edited May 19, 2017 by BkWurm1 1 Link to comment
Trini May 19, 2017 Author Share May 19, 2017 Can someone link to the trailer you all are referring to? Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 Sorry, I'm just going by memory from three years ago. Link to comment
tofutan May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 Quote I do remember vividly how the fandom initially reacted and there was a lot of people that were ready to get on board Snowbarry because of those early trailers and I was one of them since i knew and liked DP from other stuff she'd done. I didn't care about the Flash's history so I was all for it. Only, I really felt that the writing for the show shut down the idea of Iris being anything but the actual end game within the first few episodes. And the interviews coming from Kreisberg and Co also seemed to really shut that down hard even before the series started. Which was one of the reasons the odd "practically" sister/brother line was so heavily mocked in the beginning because it was like they were trying to make this harder than it needed to be even though there was every indication that they'd learned what not to do in introducing the love interest after the disaster that was Laurel Lance and the sister swapping set up. I feel pretty similar. I was neutral/open to Snowbarry because I liked DP on other shows and I like the trope well enough, but I also thought the show shut that down pretty obviously (scenes like the "we never were a team" or Barry going "whatever" on hurrying to save Caitlin are good examples of the types of scenes I mean), so, no point in shipping it, when it feels like barking up the wrong tree. Season 1 does feel like it comes the closest to playing with it a bit. It reminds me of Merlin in that sense where people say they thought that Arthur/Morgana seemed flirty in season 1, but the show then very clearly settled on Arthur/Gwen by the time those two actually started a relationships/had their first kiss. On Flash, yeah there are the occasional tease scenes like KF freeze kissing Flash, but to me those just never feel serious to me anyone. There's just no storyline, no genuine connection, no arc there. Because the writers keep inserting those type of scenes about how Caitlin just isn't a high priority for Barry. IMO the show feels like the writers have made it clear they have no genuine interest in pursuing it and I'm absolutely fine with that (especially since imo the chemistry is not there either). I think they should instead do Caitlin/Cisco instead. 6 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 (edited) https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Yj0l7iGKh8g I think this is it. There is a shippy moment with Barry and Iris early on when she's talking about his heart, but there are several cuts later in it that seem to imply more between Barry and Caitlin than there turned out to be in the actual episode. Edited to say they all look soooo young. Edited May 19, 2017 by BkWurm1 1 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdqzBRSgFrE This was also one of the scenes that came out before the show premiered. I remember hearing a lot of people comment on the possibilities between SnowBarry from this one. Link to comment
Trini May 19, 2017 Author Share May 19, 2017 12 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Yj0l7iGKh8g I think this is it. There is a shippy moment with Barry and Iris early on when she's talking about his heart, but there are several cuts later that seem to imply more between Barry and Caitlin than there turned out in the actual episode. I guess that's not the one where Iris is barely in it. Either way, I guess people see what they want, because nothing there seemed to promote Caitlin and Barry as a couple. I'd say the clips with Barry and Iris frame them as potential couple more than anything else. 8 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdqzBRSgFrE This was also one of the scenes that came out before the show premiered. I remember hearing a lot of people comment on the possibilities between SnowBarry from this one. Well, people will always see possibilities between two attractive humans. That's fine! What I don't get is the insistence that Snow Barry is the direction the show is going in, when the actual text of the show is that Barry + Iris are it. I can see it being debatable in first two seasons, but now in Season 3 (despite the fact that they are still horrible at writing romance/relationships/women) it seems they've committed to them being together. I don't think Danielle needs permission to say there was flirtation way back in Season 1 when they DID bait that 'ship; and I don't that one statement negates the many more statements from Grant, Candice and the producers about WestAllen. Or what's actually happening in the show. 8 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 (edited) No, I agree, there hasn't IMO been anything to support Snowbarry for a long time. Quote I guess that's not the one where Iris is barely in it. No,lol, it's not. I seem to remember that one showing up later after stills and clips of the training scene came out. Or at least they got the most attention. Edited May 19, 2017 by BkWurm1 1 Link to comment
johntfs May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said: Which was one of the reasons the odd "practically" sister/brother line was so heavily mocked in the beginning because it was like they were trying to make this harder than it needed to be even though there was every indication that they'd learned what not to do in introducing the love interest after the disaster that was Laurel Lance and the sister swapping set up. While the Arrow sister-swap story didn't help matters, it was pretty clear to me any romance with Laurel was pretty much doomed when Felicity appeared. You really need to go back and watch the first couple of Arrow episodes. All of Oliver's interactions in and out of the hood are clearly calculated performances. Oliver comes off less vigilante crime-fighter and way more creepy serial killer. Then there were the scenes in episode three that introduced Felicity. And in those scenes Oliver was like a flower feeling sunlight for the first time. It was the first time Oliver in the series Oliver came across as a real human person. I recall my reaction being something like "They better bring the blond girl with the glasses back or this show is dead." And of course they did. I watched them put Oliver with Laurel, but there was no question in my mind that he'd eventually end up with Felicity. I never really saw any of the trailers. I didn't get into Arrow/Flash in real time until after Christmas 2015. I got Season One Arrow, burned through it and then picked Season Two and Three of Arrow and also Season One of Flash. I liked Flash, but the way they set up the Barry/Iris thing just seemed weird as fuck to me with the "sister" stuff. It's why I figured that Barry and Caitlin would end uo together. I mean, what kind of idiot starts the hero and his main love interest out in a sibling relationship? Surely Barry was going to grow out of this obsession with Iris and move on. Surely they're not going to have Joe be the Father of the Bride and the Groom? Hell just write it that Barry lived across the street in foster care and he and Iris were best friends throughout primary, middle and high school. That would've still let Joe be a kind of father figure to Barry without Iris being a kind of sibling. Barry could still have been pining for Iris while being totally friend-zoned without the strangeness of psuedo-incest. And once they did form a couple, it would have been so much less awkward. Edited May 19, 2017 by johntfs 2 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, johntfs said: hy I figured that Barry and Caitlin would end uo together. I mean, what kind of idiot starts the hero and his main love interest out in a sibling relationship? Surely Barry was going to grow out of this obsession with Iris and move on. Surely they're not going to have Joe be the Father of the Bride and the Groom? Hell just write it that Barry lived across the street in foster care and he and Iris were best friends throughout primary, middle and high school. That would've still let Joe be a kind of father figure to Barry without Iris being a kind of sibling. Barry could still have been pining for Iris while being totally friend-zoned without the strangeness of psuedo-incest. And once they did form a couple, it would have been so much less awkward. Hey it could have been worse. They could have rejiggered the whole series and given Barry the middle name Wallace and let the West's adopt him officially. Then he could have been Wally West and actually marry his sister. Personally, it's never offended me so much as puzzled me. It's a weird thing to saddle your characters with when they didn't have to. Like you said, they had lots of options that would have given them something similar but without the head scratching moment. But this is the one they apparently liked best. Maybe they thought that the low level awkwardness would be just enough to justify why Barry had never had the guts to act on his feelings? After all, even if Barry was positive that Iris would return his feelings when he was a teenager, he couldn't have been sure that him wanting to date Iris wouldn't have made Joe too uncomfortable to let him keep living with them. Of course that excuse doesn't work for once they were both in college. Then it's just Barry thinking it was not the right time and that kind of excuse doesn't need Joe as his pseudo dad to back up his hesitation. Off topic, but did the show or the show runners ever explain how if Barry and Iris are the same age why Barry had graduated and had apparently been working long enough at the CCPD so as to run his department, when Iris was working at Jitters and still finishing up classes? Is she actually supposed to be younger? Edited May 19, 2017 by BkWurm1 3 Link to comment
LolaRuns May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 I do think that making them sort of siblings is and was supposed to be a bit of an oddity. But I think esepcially vis-a-vis what happened on Arrow they made a decent enough choice. Every couple needs to have something kind of odd or an obstacle of some sort. And being pseudo siblings is something that might be weird to a lot of people (examples in literature nonewithstanding), but it's not actually immoral. So they gave them an obstacle and something unusual, that doesn't make them bad people. I think that is a good thing when you look at all the couples where the writers obviously struggle to come up with something for them. And often that means that either the couple is very boring and uninspired, too safe, no dramatic tension. Or they are too dysfunctional. They do things too each other that are too dark or they take too long to choose each other. The Flash writers foud something that works for them and the relatively stable and healthy relationship they want to go for. Yes they could have made the backstory even more normal, but then there is a danger the writers might have felt pressured to come up with more and more ridiculous stunts to give them storylines. Even if their childhood isn't still really used that much as a source of drama on the show, it's still something unusual that keeps them from looking too uninspired. It gave a little bit of a different vibe to the same old same old triangle situation where the hero pines of the love interest who is already in a relationship and the same old, same old hiding the secret identity from the love interest. 5 Link to comment
Katsullivan May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 11 hours ago, johntfs said: Barry yearning for a person who was kind of his older sister 11 hours ago, johntfs said: Iris playing the savvier older sister looking out for her dorky superhero younger brother, Barry Your perspectives of Iris are always interesting. Interesting how you repeatedly try to give the impression that Iris is older, even when we have a flashback of them in the same grade. As someone else pointed out, at the start of the show, Barry is a professional working as a CSI while Iris is still taking classes and working part-time as a barista. If anyone gives the impression of being older, it's Barry. Yet somehow, you got the impression that Iris is (dead-beat, flakeless) older than Barry? I won't even touch the "sister" part. 3 hours ago, johntfs said: Surely Barry was going to grow out of this obsession with Iris and move on. Such an interesting choice of words here again - obsession. He had a crush as a pre-teen, that matured with his own age and friendship to her. He wasn't stalking her, or clipping her pictures on a Wall of Crazy. If anyone on this show has acted as an obsessed love interest, it's Patty Spallen and her dogged determination in Season 2A. Yet somehow, you are describing Barry's feelings for a beautiful girl, his best friend whom he's known all his life, that has loved and supported him, and believed in him when no one else did - as obsessive? By the way, there is a pattern of reading love/affection towards Black women as somehow "extra-ordinary" or "warped". 31 minutes ago, LolaRuns said: Yes they could have made the backstory even more normal, but then there is a danger the writers might have felt pressured to come up with more and more ridiculous stunts to give them storylines. Even if their childhood isn't still really used that much as a source of drama on the show, it's still something unusual that keeps them from looking too uninspired. It gave a little bit of a different vibe to the same old same old triangle situation where the hero pines of the love interest who is already in a relationship and the same old, same old hiding the secret identity from the love interest. This exactly. Much like in Clueless* (and sexual relationships between step-siblings is incest), the idea is that the familiarity of growing up together prevents the heroine from distinguishing what her affection for the hero means. I will agree that there are instances of the writing where I think the showrunners are deliberately throwing shade on the relationship between Iris and Barry. Was it really necessary for Wally to define himself as Barry's brother, not Iris's? 2 Link to comment
Mellowyellow May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 (edited) 8 hours ago, BkWurm1 said: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=Yj0l7iGKh8g I think this is it. There is a shippy moment with Barry and Iris early on when she's talking about his heart, but there are several cuts later in it that seem to imply more between Barry and Caitlin than there turned out to be in the actual episode. Edited to say they all look soooo young. Ok I'm really weird but that clip reminded me how much I like Caitlin and Wells. Never shipped them but I would have been open to Caitlin and Evil Wells or Caitlin and Harry. I actually liked Caitlin and Jay before he went all evil. ETA: You're right they were all so young! Now off to watch old scenes of my cutie pie Felicity baby! Edited May 19, 2017 by Mellowyellow 1 Link to comment
phoenics May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 12 hours ago, BkWurm1 said: No, I agree, from the original trailer, it did look like Caitlin was being set up as an option, but as MG constantly bemoans over on Arrow, he and the other show runners are not in control of the CW's trailers. They are in charge of things like the sizzle reel they put together, but the week to week trailers are totally out of their hands. So likely since DP was the better known name, some idiot in PR ran with it and created a false impression which I really felt was corrected in show by like the second episode. Still, stuff like that lingers. No it wasn't corrected by the second episode. They CONSTANTLY ran trailiers for new episodes that featured Caitlin over Iris. Tumblr had a whole page dedicated to campaigns by fans trying to counteract it and write to the PR people to demand they stop sidelining the lead actress (CP) in favor of the supporting one. I didn't feel like this got really corrected until S3. Before that, the media, PR people and everyone else was determined to make Caitlin appear to be the lead - that's WHY the SB fans got such a boost. Erasure of black women leads is such a thing that no one could believe that the show wasn't going to center Caitlin over Iris, or let WA happen, or prevent SB from happening. 2 Link to comment
phoenics May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 6 hours ago, BkWurm1 said: Hey it could have been worse. They could have rejiggered the whole series and given Barry the middle name Wallace and let the West's adopt him officially. Then he could have been Wally West and actually marry his sister. Personally, it's never offended me so much as puzzled me. It's a weird thing to saddle your characters with when they didn't have to. Like you said, they had lots of options that would have given them something similar but without the head scratching moment. But this is the one they apparently liked best. Maybe they thought that the low level awkwardness would be just enough to justify why Barry had never had the guts to act on his feelings? After all, even if Barry was positive that Iris would return his feelings when he was a teenager, he couldn't have been sure that him wanting to date Iris wouldn't have made Joe too uncomfortable to let him keep living with them. Of course that excuse doesn't work for once they were both in college. Then it's just Barry thinking it was not the right time and that kind of excuse doesn't need Joe as his pseudo dad to back up his hesitation. Off topic, but did the show or the show runners ever explain how if Barry and Iris are the same age why Barry had graduated and had apparently been working long enough at the CCPD so as to run his department, when Iris was working at Jitters and still finishing up classes? Is she actually supposed to be younger? Actually I think the reason why they made Barry and Iris "so close" and gave them such a deep connection in the past is probably because they felt they HAD to give them a deep connection in the past in order to justify Barry liking a black girl above all other (white) ones. Sorry to be so blunt, but look at the resistance to Ichabbie by TPTB on Sleepy Hollow. Look at the resistance to Barry/Iris. I think they needed a strong familial situation so that Iris couldn't just be snipped off without taking most of the show with her. They accomplished this even better than Arrow - because of how close Barry/Joe are and because Joe knew from the beginning that Barry was The Flash. I also think they wanted to make it plain WHY Barry loved her so much and needed them to be close so they could show how Iris was the ONLY one who believed in him from the start. Joe didn't. Caitlin and Cisco didn't either - once they knew - he had to basically prove it. Only Iris believed from the beginning and always supported him. Honestly - I never found the "siblings!" argument against Iris and Barry very convincing. I don't think the writers think about it that way either because they don't give it any credence. They believe they've crafted a loving family - a mixed family in more ways than one. So since they don't give the "incest!" screams any credence, they don't write to combat it. They simply write the story they want to write. I also think they understand that probably 90% of the "incest!" screams have a racial place of origin. The other 10% who have an issue with it they've decided to ignore and tell their story, since legally, Iris and Barry aren't related. Barry isn't adopted by Joe at all, so the writers are like "I'm not going to waste time assuaging the minds of people searching for reasons to hate our interracial pairing while not invoking race as the reason for their hate, but this ridiculous "incest" argument". 6 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 (edited) 10 hours ago, phoenics said: No it wasn't corrected by the second episode. They CONSTANTLY ran trailiers for new episodes that featured Caitlin over Iris. Tumblr had a whole page dedicated to campaigns by fans trying to counteract it and write to the PR people to demand they stop sidelining the lead actress (CP) in favor of the supporting one. I didn't feel like this got really corrected until S3. Before that, the media, PR people and everyone else was determined to make Caitlin appear to be the lead - that's WHY the SB fans got such a boost. Erasure of black women leads is such a thing that no one could believe that the show wasn't going to center Caitlin over Iris, or let WA happen, or prevent SB from happening. You don't think the promotion of DP had anything to do with her being the most prominently known name out of the whole cast??? DP might not have been an A lister, but it would have been hard to grow up or in my case, interact with my nieces and nephews without also watching DP kind of grow up even if Sky High might have been the only decent movie she was in. She was always in something on the kid channels. Otherwise I knew Grant from Glee and Arrow and TC from commercials for that quirky show he had and same with JM on I think Law and Order, but I never actually watched them. And the actor's for Cisco and Iris were brand new to me. It's tricky because really in the first season, the most important characters were Barry and then probably Wells and then Joe. Followed by Cisco and Caitlin since they were directly supporting Barry's everyday actions and then finally it was Iris followed by Eddie. Iris was always important to Barry, but only when they were telling that part of his story. Whereas Well and Joe were tangled in both his crime fighting and his personal stuff and then Cisco and Caitlin had the crime fighting stuff with just a dash of getting to know him. Then poor Iris is left isolated as someone he pined for and even more confusing, as a cheerleader to get him a girlfriend. (Or to support Eddie's story later on) I thought the show made a big mistake not having more scenes of Iris and Barry just hanging out as the best friends the show kept telling us they were. I also think they made a mistake in keeping her out the secret for so long. She should have been worked into a specific role to support his crime fighting stuff right away rather than make that something they are still struggling with. 8 hours ago, phoenics said: Actually I think the reason why they made Barry and Iris "so close" and gave them such a deep connection in the past is probably because they felt they HAD to give them a deep connection in the past in order to justify Barry liking a black girl above all other (white) ones. Sorry to be so blunt, but look at the resistance to Ichabbie by TPTB on Sleepy Hollow. Look at the resistance to Barry/Iris. I think they needed a strong familial situation so that Iris couldn't just be snipped off without taking most of the show with her. They accomplished this even better than Arrow - because of how close Barry/Joe are and because Joe knew from the beginning that Barry was The Flash. I also think they wanted to make it plain WHY Barry loved her so much and needed them to be close so they could show how Iris was the ONLY one who believed in him from the start. Joe didn't. Caitlin and Cisco didn't either - once they knew - he had to basically prove it. Only Iris believed from the beginning and always supported him. Honestly - I never found the "siblings!" argument against Iris and Barry very convincing. I don't think the writers think about it that way either because they don't give it any credence. They believe they've crafted a loving family - a mixed family in more ways than one. So since they don't give the "incest!" screams any credence, they don't write to combat it. They simply write the story they want to write. I also think they understand that probably 90% of the "incest!" screams have a racial place of origin. The other 10% who have an issue with it they've decided to ignore and tell their story, since legally, Iris and Barry aren't related. Barry isn't adopted by Joe at all, so the writers are like "I'm not going to waste time assuaging the minds of people searching for reasons to hate our interracial pairing while not invoking race as the reason for their hate, but this ridiculous "incest" argument". See I always saw it as the family connection is what gave the writers the excuse to keep Iris in the dark about Barry's secret which remains one of my biggest complaints about how they structured the show since it IMO push Iris to the side in the first and really for a lot of the second season as well. Because Joe and Barry were so close, Barry obeyed Joe when his first instinct was to tell his best friend. But Joe because of the strong dad role he played in Barry's life, trumped his instincts and thus Iris was the character that was needed the least when it came to the nuts and bolts story stuff of the Flash's crime fighting capers. They tied Iris in from a distance after the fact with her blog, but it still kept her at arms length to the immediate story and I blame how they used her in season one for why she doesn't get to do more now. She's a reporter, why don't they let her bring leads to Barry to check out? Why isn't she tasked to dig and research some of these targets? But since she wasn't around in the first season, they streamlined that process to a few strokes of the keys and Cisco or Caitlin or Wells or Joe did all the heavy lifting. The only thing they've left for Iris is pep talks and it's been frustrating to see her still focusing on pep talking Barry when it's her life on the line. The most recent episode was a bit better since she was allowed to actually talk to her dad and it wasn't about Barry (score!) but The Flash as a whole is too focused on EVERYTHING centering around Barry. I've hated most of what Flashpointe accomplished (I will never stop being pissed about baby Sara) but I loved the dynamic between Iris and Wally in the alternate world. It was so much fun and it was easy to imagine how that could translate to between Iris and Barry as well, but that's not the role she gets to play and I blame her season one isolation from the rest of the cast -because Joe said she had to be kept in the dark - for the show still continuing to under utilize Iris. Of course the show also is terrible in how it writes for DP but that's a different angle. Edited May 20, 2017 by BkWurm1 5 Link to comment
Trini May 19, 2017 Author Share May 19, 2017 13 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said: It's tricky because really in the first season, the most important characters were Barry and then probably Wells and then Joe. Followed by Cisco and Caitlin since they were directly supporting Barry's everyday actions and then finally it was Iris followed by Eddie. Iris was always important to Barry, but only when they were telling that part of his story. Whereas Well and Joe were tangled in both his crime fighting and his personal stuff and then Cisco and Caitlin had the crime fighting stuff with just a dash of getting to know him. Then poor Iris is left isolated as someone he pined for and even more confusing, as a cheerleader to get him a girlfriend. (Or to support Eddie's story later on) Yeah, from a marketing perspective, I don't think they were specifically trying to promote Caitlin over Iris. But since Caitlin (and Cisco, Joe) was more part of the action so she'd typically be included more in the promos. The main issue is that they hardly had Iris as part of the A-plot/action. ::SIGH:: 6 Link to comment
phoenics May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, BkWurm1 said: You don't think the promotion of DP had anything to do with her being the most prominently known name out of the whole cast??? CP might not have been an A lister, but it would have been hard to grow up or in my case, interact with my nieces and nephews without also watching CP kind of grow up even if Sky High might have been the only decent movie she was in. She was always in something on the kid channels. Otherwise I knew Grant from Glee and Arrow and TC from commercials for that quirky show he had and same with JM on I think Law and Order, but I never actually watched them. And the actor's for Cisco and Iris were brand new to me. I think you're saying CP when you mean DP? I knew of CP before this because she'd been in The Game and a couple of other things - black fans probably heard of her more. The fact remains that they should have promoted her more - and more than Caitlin. Sorry not sorry. I didn't know DP from Adam when she was on this show. I never watched Sky High. This is still a black vs white issue, you're just missing it. There is a reason why I - as a black woman - would have skipped right on past Sky High. Quote It's tricky because really in the first season, the most important characters were Barry and then probably Wells and then Joe. Followed by Cisco and Caitlin since they were directly supporting Barry's everyday actions and then finally it was Iris followed by Eddie. Iris was always important to Barry, but only when they were telling that part of his story. Whereas Well and Joe were tangled in both his crime fighting and his personal stuff and then Cisco and Caitlin had the crime fighting stuff with just a dash of getting to know him. Then poor Iris is left isolated as someone he pined for and even more confusing, as a cheerleader to get him a girlfriend. (Or to support Eddie's story later on) I don't agree that Caitlin and Cisco were more important characters than Iris. I think she was a pretty prominent part of the story - it's just that many fans hated Iris for breathing, so... Quote I thought the show made a big mistake not having more scenes of Iris and Barry just hanging out as the best friends the show kept telling us they were. I also think they made a mistake in keeping her out the secret for so long. She should have been worked into a specific role to support his crime fighting stuff right away rather than make that something they are still struggling with. While I agree that the show should have let Iris in on the secret sooner, the show DID have Iris and Barry interacting A TON in the first half of S1. Iris/CP had a TON of scenes there - mostly of her just hanging out with Barry. How else do you think the fandom decided to hate Iris so vociferously for breathing in the same vicinity as Barry? Quote See I always saw it as the family connection is what gave the writers the excuse to keep Iris in the dark about Barry's secret which remains one of my biggest complaints about how they structured the show since it IMO push Iris to the side in the first and really for a lot of the second season as well. Because Joe and Barry were so close, Barry obeyed Joe when his first instinct was to tell his best friend. But Joe because of the strong dad role he played in Barry's life, trumped his instincts and thus Iris was the character that was needed the least when it came to the nuts and bolts story stuff of the Flash's crime fighting capers. I agree this was related - but I don't think that's why they created the deep family connection with Barry and Iris to begin with. I could easily see a non-family related Joe forcing Barry to back off of telling his daughter about this and Barry complying simply because Iris was HIS daughter, and Barry didn't have as deep or long of a connection with Iris (if they hadn't gone the family route with Barry and The Wests). As it played out, the deep family connection explained why Barry was so in love with Iris, but it made his decision to not tell her the truth even more stupid. Quote They tied Iris in from a distance after the fact with her blog, but it still kept her at arms length to the immediate story and I blame how they used her in season one for why she doesn't get to do more now. She's a reporter, why don't they let her bring leads to Barry to check out? Why isn't she tasked to dig and research some of these targets? But since she wasn't around in the first season, they streamlined that process to a few strokes of the keys and Cisco or Caitlin or Wells or Joe did all the heavy lifting. The only thing they've left for Iris is pep talks and it's been frustrating to see her still focusing on pep talking Barry when it's her life on the line. Actually I felt that they did better at tying Iris inadvertently into the main plots with her blog than they've done in subsequent seasons with her reporting. I do agree that having Cisco or Caitlin or Wells do the heavy lifting took some of Iris West's canon plots (from the comics, she and Barry were a team). Many of us complained about that in S1 - especially the back half of S1. Part of the issue was that while Barry was a CSI, Iris was "just a waitress" who had to find her way. I wish they'd have stuck to the original plan to have Iris finish her PhD in Criminal Justice Psychology or whatever she was studying, because maybe it would have led to her being a seasoned reporter faster. Having her be the ONLY character with no real career didn't make sense and made her look more aimless than she needed to be. In the pilot she was clearly in graduate school working on a PhD, which explained why she was still without a real job yet while Barry and everyone else had established careers. The main reason for this was more that the show wanted to do Team Flash like Team Arrow, so they got the real careers and Iris got shafted. Even worse when you realize Laurel Lance at least got to be a lawyer from jump. Quote The most recent episode was a bit better since she was allowed to actually talk to her dad and it wasn't about Barry (score!) but The Flash as a whole is too focused on EVERYTHING centering around Barry. I've hated most of what Flashpointe accomplished (I will never stop being pissed about baby Sara) but I loved the dynamic between Iris and Wally in the alternate world. It was so much fun and it was easy to imagine how that could translate to between Iris and Barry as well, but that's not the role she gets to play and I blame her season one isolation from the rest of the cast -because Joe said she had to be kept in the dark - for the show still continuing to under utilize Iris. Quote I still think this is more because the show wanted the Team Flash dynamic and they haven't figured out how to let Iris do her journalism thing to round out the plot without taking away from overall Team Flash. If Joe hadn't said she should be kept in the dark, she still would have been for some other reason. The writing team should watch Daredevil and see how they had Karen in S1 hunting down stories to find the people responsible for what happened to her - they let her have agency and really push the story - but separate from Matt and his shenanigans. In S2, they could have easily worked Iris into the crossover by having her investigate something related to Savage and then she is about to figure it out when boom - Savage strikes and all the pieces fall into place. They need to think of a longterm arc for Iris that gets into scrapes that The Flash can rescue her from, but eventually her leads add up to one big bad. Let her reporting figure things out for once instead of Cisco and Caitlin - and Iris could even use them for information - but let the reporting lead the story for once. Lois & Clark figured this out - why can't this show? The obvious answer is they don't want to. Edited May 19, 2017 by phoenics Link to comment
johntfs May 19, 2017 Share May 19, 2017 (edited) 9 hours ago, Katsullivan said: Your perspectives of Iris are always interesting. Interesting how you repeatedly try to give the impression that Iris is older, even when we have a flashback of them in the same grade. As someone else pointed out, at the start of the show, Barry is a professional working as a CSI while Iris is still taking classes and working part-time as a barista. If anyone gives the impression of being older, it's Barry. Yet somehow, you got the impression that Iris is (dead-beat, flakeless) older than Barry? I won't even touch the "sister" part. Part of that comes from knowing that Candice Patton (born June 6, 1988) actually is older than Grant Gustin (born January 14, 1990). That said, Iris always struck me as more emotionally mature, independent and further along in life than Barry did. Iris had her own place (even if we never really saw it) while Barry still lived at home with Joe. Iris had an independent job (yes, at a coffee shop but she also had a popular, respected blog and eventually a job as a reporter) while Barry worked with the police (with Joe putting in good words for him?). Iris was in a long-term relationship that was moving toward marriage while Barry didn't even have a girlfriend (He and Felicity never seemed to get to that stage). 9 hours ago, Katsullivan said: Yet somehow, you are describing Barry's feelings for a beautiful girl, his best friend whom he's known all his life, that has loved and supported him, and believed in him when no one else did - as obsessive? By the way, there is a pattern of reading love/affection towards Black women as somehow "extra-ordinary" or "warped". I'm describing " Barry's feelings for a beautiful girl, his best friend whom he's known all his life, that has loved and supported him, and believed in him when no one else did - as obsessive" because she was presented as effectively being his sister. Iris being Black was fine with me. Iris being beautiful, poised, capable and so far out of Barry's league that she was playing for the pros while he was stuck in T-ball was fine with me. Barry growing with with Iris as his sister was the thing that made this weird and kind of creepy at the time. I'm adopted in real life. I grew up with a sister who is not at all genetically related to me. The idea of sex/romance with her makes me throw up in my mouth. Candice Patton and Grant Gustin have developed amazing chemistry. I totally buy Barry and Iris as a couple (though I believe that Iris will always be the "brains" and even keel of that pairing). My bafflement and annoyance at that writers comes from "These people are clearly great together. Why the fuck would you idiots try to sabotage that with this asinine quasi-sibling relationship?" Edited May 19, 2017 by johntfs 1 Link to comment
Chip May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 Hey y'all, We are having to hide a lot of posts on this thread because of a few posters. It's a good thread and we don't want to shut it down but people need to be nice to each other. It is OK for someone to be wrong on the internet. State your case, have a civil discussion, and then move on. If someone doesn't agree the first time, they probably aren't going to the third of fourth. If someone does personally attack you or cross a line, please report it and your Flash mod team will take a look! 2 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 Quote I think you're saying CP when you mean DP? Oops. Yep. Fixed! Quote I don't agree that Caitlin and Cisco were more important characters than Iris. I think she was a pretty prominent part of the story - it's just that many fans hated Iris for breathing, so See this is still news to me. I thought the general consensus was that Iris was super likable even if the show still tried to saddle the characters with a complicated (for some at least) backstory. But then I only hung out on the Flash threads here and even then sporadically after awhile once the show started. I guess thinking Iris and CP were universally liked is naive since I do know there are some places on the internet where racist misogyny is the norm. As for importance of the character, important might have been a poor wrong word choice on my end. Required may be closer to what I meant to express, and required for the crime fighting hero stuff. Iris was separate from that in the beginning. IMO She was for character connection and emotion but they needed Caitlin and Cisco for his day job (hero in training) which I saw as driving the show in the beginning. The show needs both aspects to be a success and in the long run, I find the emotional character stuff the reason I'll stick around or not for a show, but in the beginning at least, I think more emphasis is on the nuts and bolts minutia setting up a lot of action and plot stuff while the emotional connections drive the show less. It's there, but not what IMO most of the episode is written around. But of course that's just my opinion. Quote Iris/CP had a TON of scenes there - mostly of her just hanging out with Barry. The way I remember it, she and Barry spoke a lot, but they were mostly on their way somewhere else or there to meet someone else or she was working or he was just there briefly before they got interrupted so I remember always wishing they would carve out specific time just for each other rather than it so frequently being just flybys or killing time until Eddie or her Dad was available (or with Barry until he got called away for a bad guy). In 104 she and Barry hung out, but it was a double date type set up. Same later with the bowling thing. I wanted to see them hang out like the way we saw them in the pilot before her laptop (or was it purse?) was stolen. 6 hours ago, phoenics said: I agree this was related - but I don't think that's why they created the deep family connection with Barry and Iris to begin with. I could easily see a non-family related Joe forcing Barry to back off of telling his daughter about this and Barry complying simply because Iris was HIS daughter, and Barry didn't have as deep or long of a connection with Iris (if they hadn't gone the family route with Barry and The Wests). As it played out, the deep family connection explained why Barry was so in love with Iris, but it made his decision to not tell her the truth even more stupid. No, I didn't mean to imply that they gave him the close family connection to the Wests so Joe could insist he not tell Iris, just that it became a IMO a negative byproduct. 6 hours ago, phoenics said: Actually I felt that they did better at tying Iris inadvertently into the main plots with her blog than they've done in subsequent seasons with her reporting. I do agree that having Cisco or Caitlin or Wells do the heavy lifting took some of Iris West's canon plots (from the comics, she and Barry were a team). Many of us complained about that in S1 - especially the back half of S1. Part of the issue was that while Barry was a CSI, Iris was "just a waitress" who had to find her way. I wish they'd have stuck to the original plan to have Iris finish her PhD in Criminal Justice Psychology or whatever she was studying, because maybe it would have led to her being a seasoned reporter faster. Having her be the ONLY character with no real career didn't make sense and made her look more aimless than she needed to be. In the pilot she was clearly in graduate school working on a PhD, which explained why she was still without a real job yet while Barry and everyone else had established careers. Yeah, maybe if they'd let her get that or use that degree in psychology then they could have had her profiling the bad guys, something that neither Cisco or Caitlin or Wells really have cornered. Also, I wish they'd made the graduate school thing more clear. DId they actually spell that out or were we supposed to just use logic to assume it? All I remembered was she was still going to college. For all I knew she'd had trouble sticking to one major since her dad wouldn't let her do what she really wanted to do. Quote The main reason for this was more that the show wanted to do Team Flash like Team Arrow, so they got the real careers and Iris got shafted. Even worse when you realize Laurel Lance at least got to be a lawyer from jump. Does it help at all that she was a pretty terrible lawyer? 6 hours ago, phoenics said: They need to think of a longterm arc for Iris that gets into scrapes that The Flash can rescue her from, but eventually her leads add up to one big bad. Let her reporting figure things out for once instead of Cisco and Caitlin - and Iris could even use them for information - but let the reporting lead the story for once. Lois & Clark figured this out - why can't this show? The obvious answer is they don't want Yeah, I've made similar suggestion with regards to her reporting. I think part of the problem goes back to how the show makes everything start and end with Barry. I get it, it's his show, but it all can lead back to Barry still and they are fine with starting stuff with Joe or random news alerts. Why not Iris's reporting? Link to comment
phoenics May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 33 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said: Yeah, maybe if they'd let her get that or use that degree in psychology then they could have had her profiling the bad guys, something that neither Cisco or Caitlin or Wells really have cornered. Also, I wish they'd made the graduate school thing more clear. DId they actually spell that out or were we supposed to just use logic to assume it? All I remembered was she was still going to college. For all I knew she'd had trouble sticking to one major since her dad wouldn't let her do what she really wanted to do. When her laptop got stolen, she exclaimed that her dissertation was on it - you only do that for a PhD. She was out of college based on that alone, unless the writers are complete idiots. But given the ages of the characters, a PhD program makes more sense. She and Barry were the same age and Barry was supposed to be in his mid-late twenties... so she should have been too - hence graduate school. 2 Link to comment
TwistedandBored May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 If the show wanted DP and Snowwhatever over CP/WA then they shouldn't have hired someone as charismatic and lovable as CP. Seriously, CP made that character into what it is now. It is not like the writers ever wrote Iris the way a character like hers should have been written. Anyways, I came here to see what was going on during the last episode. Iris before she leaves for another earth doesn't kiss her the love of her life and the man she is going to marry one day? Was there a scene that was cut for time or what? There was like no WA kiss throughout the episode even though Iris had her doubt this might be her last few moments. I felt more during her vows video and during her dancing with her father scene then I did anything with Barry and it shouldn't have been like that? Iris and Barry should be more touchy feely then anything really. I don't get this show and their lack of showing any WA touches and kisses. 6 Link to comment
tofutan May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 Wow, CP was on The Game? I actually watched The Game, and I don't remember her at all. I guess she must have been in one of the later seasons? From wikipedia it looks to me like the season CP was in averaged around 3 million viewers. I knew DP from Shark which supposedly had ratings above 10 million viewers (though mostly older, so not really CW target audience). I've never even heard of Sky High. Lois and Clark was always pitched as a two lead show. None of the CW shows are like that. Arrow, Flash and Supergirl (and arguably Smallville) are shows with a lead character, a supporting cast and love interests. Legends is a team show. To me it makes no sense to wonder why Flash is not like Lois and Clark when it has never been pitched as Barry & Iris, The Adventures of Flash. Unless you mean Lois and Clark on Smallville (which I think borrowed heavily from the Lois & Clark tv show dynamic AND only got there after many seasons of Lana AND it to me always had a more multi-cast soapy structure than the current breed of CW shows). I still think that as far as love interests that are outside the inner circle go, Flash still does the best. Arrow perfectly showed what the upsides and downsides are of having a love interest outside the circle (Laurel) versus one inside the circle (Felicity). This problem was already present in Lana and Chloe in Smallville, which of course the show in my mind eventually merged into Lois. Lana showed that writers can be committed to "outside the circle" love interests (and here I don't mean strictly not knowing the secret, but more being part of the day to day action, going after the monster of the week plots), but that it's pretty hard. I don't know why writers are still in love with having outside the circle love interests at all. Maybe they think of it as their lead character getting a breather when they get to step outside the circle? I think a lot of viewers in the meantime tend to identify at least to some extent with the lead characters. The lead character has a goal, like taking down the badguy of the week. We perceive characters who help them doing that positively. The problem with outside the circle love interests that rather than being helpers to get the lead character get to the goal, they often are cast as the goal. Or (whether they are male or female) get made the damsel in distress, something that a lot of people have a negative reaction to. Because it makes them look like they are the cause of a lot of trouble and they are not contributing actively to getting rid of that trouble. Laurel on Arrow in season 1 I think showed them trying to do this sort of dual role where she is still outside of the immediate circle of the ones fighting badguys but her job was supposed to provide ways to contribute to the plots and kickstart them (just like many people here suggest Iris journalism could be used) On Arrow it didn't work. Not because it can't work, but because Arrow is not great at writing. I think within the confines of having made this choice of not making Iris an active sidekick for things other than pep talks most of the time, I think the writers are doing their best to make it work. 3 Link to comment
ruby24 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, TwistedandBored said: There was like no WA kiss throughout the episode even though Iris had her doubt this might be her last few moments. I felt more during her vows video and during her dancing with her father scene then I did anything with Barry and it shouldn't have been like that? Iris and Barry should be more touchy feely then anything really. I don't get this show and their lack of showing any WA touches and kisses. I've said this a lot, but yeah, this has bothered me FOREVER. I can't shake the thought that its a reluctance on the part of the actors, since I know that the scripts have little to no stage direction. But they could improve the amount of physical affection between them if it felt natural to do so, and they just don't do it. Frankly, even such things as them in bed together. Iris could be laying on his chest, he could be holding her on their possible last night together. Instead they're lying stiffly next to each other and don't even touch. Stuff like that sometimes, it could easily be different and if it felt really natural between the actors, I think it would be. But these two...I question if there's a formalness between them offscreen and whether they have zero personal connection that could improve scenes like this with genuine, improvised affection. I'm not saying that they don't get along or dislike each other, but I also don't think they're close friends either. Just very professional. Edited May 20, 2017 by ruby24 1 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) I could almost rationalize there not being a send off kiss as Barry refusing to concede there would be any need for anything like a goodbye kiss but that's more a case of using pretzel logic to explain what we got when really something else would have made more sense from the writers in the first place. Arrow had a similar issue this week. The stakes were a bit lower since it was only a threat of kidnapping and death rather than waiting to basically fulfill a prophecy, but given where the characters were emotionally and the existing danger, it would have made sense for a bigger goodbye between them. But no kiss, no hug. Just a weighted look exchanged and that probably was from the actors, not the script. Edited May 20, 2017 by BkWurm1 3 Link to comment
lbrown905 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) I'm not on this site/ forum much. Just wanted to say this discussion is very fascinating. Really enjoy reading it Edited May 20, 2017 by lbrown905 4 Link to comment
johntfs May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 1 hour ago, tofutan said: Laurel on Arrow in season 1 I think showed them trying to do this sort of dual role where she is still outside of the immediate circle of the ones fighting badguys but her job was supposed to provide ways to contribute to the plots and kickstart them (just like many people here suggest Iris journalism could be used) On Arrow it didn't work. Not because it can't work, but because Arrow is not great at writing. I don't really think that's true, at least not completely true. All the various CW DC shows are trying to stay fairly close to canon characters and relationship. Felicity Smoak is a character completely original to Arrow. Moreover she was clearly initially just a random bit part as "IT girl." I think Stephen Amell loved the actress and the character and fought for her to be brought back and made into a regular. The planned romantic lead was supposed to be Laurel Lance but Felicity ended up derailing that almost completely. Link to comment
tofutan May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 I didn't mean that they intentionally set it up that way so they could switch over to Oliver and Felicity and make Felicity look better. I meant the originally intended canon love interest not working out was also because they wrote themselves into a corner, saddled themselves with a setup that was hard to do and make likable. People gravitate towards the techguy/techgal or pining best friend characters because 1.) online people with tech interests are overrepresented 2.) they are useful to the hero or heroine 3.) they are often used for humor rather than just serious drama all the time 4.) because they are useful to the hero or heroine they often at least witness from the sidelines a lot of the things that happen in the action part of the show while the outside the loop love interest might be clueless 5.) they often pine over the hero or heroine, which makes them more relateable than people who are the object of desire. Maybe for some viewers it also better mirrors their own unattainable interest in the hero of the show. Being the outside the circle love interest like Laurel or Lana is not an easy thing to do and Flash does it better than most. They in my mind also put the kibosh on Snowbarry getting to morph into another Chloe/Clark situation within the fandom by in my mind putting the lid on it rather deftly early on. And of course Cisco is the true tech-tech guy. I think the more interesting question, when we talk about race and how it affects fandom popularity, is why Barry/Cisco is not more popular, compared to Barry/Snart for example. 2 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 Quote I think the more interesting question, when we talk about race and how it affects fandom popularity, is why Barry/Cisco is not more popular, compared to Barry/Snart for example. I think the popularity of Barry and Snart as a pairing has to do with the contrast in their personalities. Barry and Cisco are IMO not that different when it comes to personality, at least when the weight of the world isn't crushing them. And there is the age thing. Barry and Cisco being more contemporaries while Snart is the experienced, more world weary one. I suspect that plays into it. Barry and CIsco when Cisco isn't IMO unfairly blaming Barry for his brother's death, are too similar to spark much more than friendship vibes. 2 Link to comment
Mellowyellow May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 Do you guys get script releases? Especially for the WestAllen romantic scenes? Because it's really interesting to see how the script is written and what the actors do with it. I have found the Olicity scripts are sometimes very surprising in terms of what I see onscreen and what was written. @BkWurm1 Re no kiss this week: My very very very naive self is still hoping for some kind of epic "go to war" kiss next week. Preferably a long one! With lots of tongue! Now watch me get disappointed! Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, doram said: You know the interesting thing about the Chloe comparisons is that... Chloe was not in Clark's inner circle. That was Pete. After seasons of doing some pretty despicable things including colluding with the Luthors, to find out his secret, she finally finds out when one of Clark's exes betrays him to her in Season 4. It's the same season that Clark reveals his secret to Lana but that day ends up being erased. LOL. I guess that's where the inspiration for "Out of Time" comes from. Chloe/Clark =/= Snowbarry. If anything, Westallen & Chloe/Clark have more in common because: Just like Iris, Chloe was a "nosey" journalist. Just like Iris, Chloe was independently interested in the kryptonite-metas of Smallville. Similarly to Iris's Meta-Human Blog, Chloe had her own Wall of Weird and was pursuing her own investigations into the krptonite-meta phenomenum. Just like Iris, Chloe was Clark's best friend whom he was keeping secrets from and occasionally gaslighting for her own "protection". Except for being a threat to canon, (and the Chlois theory would have taken care of that issue, lol) I have trouble seeing the Chlark and Snowbarry parallel. Clark and Chloe were friends first. I still am not sure if Barry really is Caitlin's friend. They are friendly co workers, but Caitlin and Cisco seem way more like real friends than Barry and Caitlin. Like you said, Chloe and Iris and conversely, Barry and Clark, have more in common with each other. Except Chloe, while not technically in the know til mid fourth season, was Clark's go to partner in all things weird pretty much from the get go. She was still the one that he investigated with. More often than not, she was the one that brought stuff to his attention and she got to do all the glorious exposition, lol. And I strongly feel her role on the show is mischaracterized by saying " After seasons of doing some pretty despicable things including colluding with the Luthors to find out his secret" Early on the couple times she dug into Clark's background was with only good intent. The first time was just being an over achiver while trying to do a homework assignment and the second time, while she clearly crossed boundaries big time when she thought she'd found his birth mother, there was no ill will. She thought she was helping since she personally didn't know where her mother was. Then when she was dosed with the Truth drug in season three, the episode clearly stated it was the drug that pushed her to aggressively try to force his secret out of people. And afterwards, she felt awful about it. And her deal with Lionel at the end of season two - when she was fifteen - wasn't made because she wanted to know Clark's secret. Info on Clark was just what Lionel wanted in exchange for handing her her dreams on a silver platter and in a moment of hurt, anger and yes, jealousy, she agreed, BUT we found out she never gave him anything Lionel didn't already know and actively protected and kept Clark's secrets even from his own family during that period and when pressed, tried to end her deal with Lionel and nearly died finally doing so. So it's not like she every really was trying to expose his secret. Most times she didn't even know she was digging into stuff connected to his secret and before Alicia ever revealed Clark's secret, Chloe promised Clark NOT to look into what he was hiding, basically agreeing to stay willfully ignorant (though the implication seemed to be she already had a lot of theories she was already keeping to herself. Like she told Clark later, she always kind of suspected which was supported in the Pilot episode when she observed that he frequently missed the bus and yet kept managing to beat the bus to school and later in Obscura -wow, didn't know I still knew episode titles, lol - we had the line when he rescued her where she exclaimed, "I knew it was you. It's always you.") So the show was trying to have their cake and eat it too with having Chloe help drive the week to week "mysteries" while also for a number of seasons, keep her technically ignorant of his secret. Personally, I thought the show worked much better when she was finally in the know, no holds barred, but then the haters freaked out that Chloe was being made too important and Clark should be doing it all on his own. And then Smallville became a cautionary tale of a show allowed to go on too long and by the final seasons, barely remembered it's own history. Grrr. (I don't see The Flash having this problem but I do worry about Arrow, and LoT. ) 1 hour ago, doram said: It's the same season that Clark reveals his secret to Lana but that day ends up being erased. Chloe found out in season four but Clark didn't find out she knew until season five which was when Lana had her erased day..because she couldn't manage to keep his secret and stay alive even one fricken day. 41 minutes ago, Mellowyellow said: Do you guys get script releases? Especially for the WestAllen romantic scenes? Because it's really interesting to see how the script is written and what the actors do with it. I have found the Olicity scripts are sometimes very surprising in terms of what I see onscreen and what was written. @BkWurm1 Re no kiss this week: My very very very naive self is still hoping for some kind of epic "go to war" kiss next week. Preferably a long one! With lots of tongue! Now watch me get disappointed! I assume you mean for Arrow? Yes, let the hope live on! (And also lower your expectations, lol) I think for The Flash, I assume Iris really isn't dead so there should be some kind of epic reunion when Barry and Iris are back in each other's proximity. Though it would be horrifically hilarious if instead of a big smooch, we get Joe and Barry hugging each other in celebration that Iris isn't dead. While Iris watches from the sidelines. I wish I found that more unlikely than I do. Edited May 20, 2017 by BkWurm1 3 Link to comment
Mellowyellow May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said: I assume you mean for Arrow? Yes, let the hope live on! (And also lower your expectations, lol) I think for The Flash, I assume Iris really isn't dead so there should be some kind of epic reunion when Barry and Iris are back in each other's proximity. Though it would be horrifically hilarious if instead of a big smooch, we get Joe and Barry hugging each other in celebration that Iris isn't dead. While Iris watches from the sidelines. I wish I found that more unlikely than I do. Yes I meant Arrow. Re expectations: I know I know! But that was a pretty epic look in the stills! That was kissy face dammnit! Flash: Hell I am not a WestAllen shipper but I will mini rage if Barry and Joe hug while Iris watches! They definitely need a big smooch too next week when Iris gets saved! Although I am still kinda hoping the Barritar is in love with her somehow and he's hidden her somewhere for himself as some sort of crazed love (blame too many chinese/korean movies in my youth for this line of thinking). But yes realistically they should smooch! May everyone get a smooch with lots of tongue next week!!!!! *sprinkles smoochy vibes on both forums* 2 Link to comment
tofutan May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) Quote Chloe was not in Clark's inner circle. That was Pete. After seasons of doing some pretty despicable things including colluding with the Luthors, to find out his secret, she finally finds out when one of Clark's exes betrays him to her in Season 4. It's the same season that Clark reveals his secret to Lana but that day ends up being erased. LOL. I guess that's where the inspiration for "Out of Time" comes from. Chloe/Clark =/= Snowbarry. If anything, Westallen & Chloe/Clark have more in common because: Just like Iris, Chloe was a "nosey" journalist. IMO it's a question of relative involvedness. Clark didn't have a team, he wasn't even actively looking for badguys for most of the early show. Yes Pete knew but he hardly ever played an active role in combating the badguys and gathering intel. And then of course he was written off... Quote Barry and Cisco are IMO not that different when it comes to personality, I'm pretty sure if Cisco was a conventionally cute white guy the slashers would have found a way. (yes I know Wentworth Miller is mixed race, but he tends to play white characters or be perceived as white) Quote even if Grant and Candice were exes who hate each other's guts. *cough* Delena Brucas Sydney/Vaughn-from-Alias *cough* Basically, you don't need to go far to find people who hate each other in real life being forced to swap spit and act lovey-dovey for the cameras. I don't know about those others, but I remember Delena leading to some fans complaining and saying it was noticeable, particularly when she returned for the finale. Just because people should be professional doesn't mean that they can be. I still think that people are wrong to compare it to couples like Olicity, because again, it is respective to their shows. If all other couples were a lot more sexual then I would say, yes it is unfair. If the actors acted a lot more passionate with actors in other pairings, then I would assume maybe they don't like each other. But I don't really see that being the case in Flash. Arrow is a different show. It's on later at night. It probably has a higher recommended age rating. It is generally more explicit and salacious (I mean it started off with Olli cheating on Laurel with her sister (who is in lingerie before she "dies"): For example, I do think the kiss between Barry and Patty, the one where she grabs him was hot. Not to the extent that I wanted them as a couple, but hot. The kind of thing you could show somebody out of context and I think a fair share of people would say that looked hot. But to me that is a kiss that was hot because of what the actress made out of it. They are still fully clothed, it's not like she is grabbing his ass or grinding against him. It's hot because the way she puts her arm around him looked very commanding. But it wasn't really on a different level of explicitness compared to other couples. I look at for example the Barry and Iris couch scenes, and I think the actors do their job, they put their hands on each other when the scene requires it. Or let's compare it to Kara/Mon-El on Supergirl, a show that I would say is at a comparable level of explicitness. Here the actors started dating in real life presumably around the time their characters are dating. To me it seems pretty obvious that the male actor probably sneaks in a lot of hello/goodbye type kisses that probably aren't in the script and we can assume that they have no issues with touching each other (you can see in their first on screen kiss that they were swapping spit). But I don't really see them as being more explicit than Barry and Iris. Granted, Barry and Iris are engaged to be married and have a much deeper and longer relationship. But if I compare like scenes where they talk on the couch or in their apartment I don't really see like a huge difference in the level of intimacy. Compared to: And Edited May 20, 2017 by tofutan 1 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, tofutan said: But I don't really see them as being more explicit than Barry and Iris. Granted, Barry and Iris are engaged to be married and have a much deeper and longer relationship. But if I compare like scenes where they talk on the couch or in their apartment I don't really see like a huge difference in the level of intimacy. When it comes to the sex scenes, Supergirl didn't even have them waking up in bed together. Mon-El was on his own, lol. I do think both The Flash and Supergirl are more interested in giving off the romance or adorable vibe than the sexy. We have HR and Tracy doing all this cutesy banter even though both actors are older and Joe and Cecile spent more time flirting than making out on the show. And often, I think that is just fine. Great even. Most of how Iris and Barry's displays of affection have been showed works for me. Sweet, romantic, fun. PG was fine. (I just have a hard time thinking of Barry as sexy so I really don't want to see him trying to be) BUT my exception to that rule was when the show skipped over noting a big milestone aka their first time together. It didn't need to be explicit, but there should have been specific note made when it happened rather than have the viewers have to retroactively figure out they must have been sleeping together a lot longer than we realized once they moved in together. I HATED it on Bones when they left it vague at first, though that was still a hundred times better than how they handled it on the X-Files. 6 Link to comment
johntfs May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 3 hours ago, doram said: Why is all this important? As I already said, I don't mind older woman/younger men relationship. Because - you guessed it - it's about race. It's been common-place knowledge that in this majorly non-black society, the privilege of being seen as children is something that is denied to black children. There've been numerous studies and discussions about the dangers of that (Tamir Rice). Society is intrinsically biased to look at two children of the same age, and assume that the black child is older even if evidence is given that they are likely to be younger. And that is what, I strongly suspect, is happening here. I wouldn't call Barry/Iris an older woman/younger man relationship. It's not May/December so much as May/a couple-three days earlier in May. My impression of Iris' age relative to Barry's was based far more on the whole of the season and not really on the first 5-10 minutes of the pilot episode. As far as Felicity and Caitlin go, I figured Caitlin is probably a good 3 to 5 years older than Barry and thus probably 2 to 4 years older than Iris (I figured Iris to be probably a year older than Barry, two at the very outside). With Felicity, I constantly find myself stumbling over her age, which in the show is around 26 (about a year older than Emily Bett Rickards) and around the same age as Barry. I keep figuring her to be in her late 20s-early 30s just because of the poised, mature, intelligent way EBK plays her. Plus her wardrobe, you almost never see Felicity in anything less formal than business-casual at the least. Thea's another one like that. The character is supposed to be about 22 at this point but in the latest season, she feels like she's also in her late twenties. I take your point about Black children/people being seen as older but I didn't see (and still don't) see the relevance to the show. I considered it a good thing that Iris came across as older and more mature than Barry. I liked that the person who had their shit well and truly together was Iris. I thought it was cool that the person who'd be in the decision-making/pants-wearing position was Iris. I liked that of the two of them Barry was clearly the needy one. 1 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 Quote Society is intrinsically biased to look at two children of the same age, and assume that the black child is older even if evidence is given that they are likely to be younger. And that is what, I strongly suspect, is happening here. I'm curious. Any thoughts related to this in how they bungled the casting for the recent flashback Iris and Barry? I mean, the child actors were clearly mismatched in how old they looked. If I saw that scene and then watched the show I would absolutely assume that Iris is at least a couple years older. Link to comment
ruby24 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 2 hours ago, doram said: And even without making the sex explicit, we should have seen more PDA. Having Harrison accidentally walk in on them in Star Labs is something that should have been a recurring joke all season long. But S3 Westallen are not even tactile* unless they're in specific sexual situations. Even their "bed" scenes might as well be in an office for all the physical contact they make. Why not have Iris's head resting on Barry's chest in that mid-night scene or them spooning, fully-clothed and under the covers? I know someone will argue that they're trying to depict anxiety by having both of them lying on their backs, staring up at the ceiling, but they could easily be doing so by holding on to each other. Or if not in full body contact, they could be lying with their heads touching, making jokes about their childhood and high-school days. Then in the camera angles, you have things like how the Karamel makeout-on-the-couch-fade-to-sex scene is shot from the front. Westallen's (Gorilla City) is shot from the back. (I'm deliberately not comparing to the "Joe interrupts" scene because that is interrupted & the whole point of that scene was to show them get hot and heavy and then be stopped. So it had to be shot from the front. However when Westallen are in a setting where they have free rein to get hot and heavy, it's "toned down".) YES! I don't get this! I'll give some examples. The Christmas episode called for extended kissing, yet the camera immediately cut away to outside a window and pulled back way far so that we can barely see anything. Then, episode 3x13, when Barry goes in to make out, again it's shot from the back and pulls back really far so we can't see it. And even episode 3x21, when HR sees them, I think that's supposed to be a passionate kissing scene, yet it's a split second before it's interrupted! Everything else is chaste, quick kisses. Anything further is cut away from, not lingered on, not allowed to last a few seconds more to show us real kissing going on. It's SO irritating, and not the way other couples are shot. 4 Link to comment
phoenics May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 10 hours ago, tofutan said: I think the more interesting question, when we talk about race and how it affects fandom popularity, is why Barry/Cisco is not more popular, compared to Barry/Snart for example. Because many of the ColdFlash fans don't know Wentworth is biracial - half black? 2 Link to comment
phoenics May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 One reason why I don't think we got a real goodbye or goodbye kiss was partly due to the showrunners insane need to keep WA "chaste", but also because that's not the real goodbye. Iris isn't dead, so why waste an epic goodbye kiss there. They did the same thing with the first proposal - we never saw Iris answer. Because that wasn't the real proposal - when it was "real", then we got to see her say yes. It's basically proof that Iris isn't dead. It still sucks. I hate how they won't let WA get physical or hot - it's not the actors - it's the showrunners and writers. I think GG and CP add when they can - but I feel like a lot of times their ad libs get cut. You still see small moments where they touch, Iris squeezing Barry's shoulder, or a lingering touch here or there - but it's just not enough. S1 had steamier moments. I feel robbed. 4 Link to comment
ruby24 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 52 minutes ago, phoenics said: It still sucks. I hate how they won't let WA get physical or hot - it's not the actors - it's the showrunners and writers. It's both though. It was just pointed out how they could have improved this last scene of them in bed together, with some touching or increased closeness. That kind of stuff would come naturally to two actors who felt really comfortable with each other, imo. Link to comment
tofutan May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) I was gonna comment that after watching the clips one difference I think is there that Barry and Iris feel a lot more serious with each other, while Kara and Mon-El joke a lot more. Granted, part of it is the selection of scenes (since I specifically went for scenes with the couples on a couch to compare situations where a couple interacts with each other in a private, home type setting, since the original question was about how much the actors touch each other). Barry and Iris are dealing with a much more serious and depressing situation (evil parents and arranged marriages on Supergirl nonewithstanding). But I feel like one aspect is that on Supergirl, the show seems to be much more willing to also let Mon-El be the butt of jokes. Something that I don't really see as much with Iris on Flash. Where humor can come from a character acting ridiculous and dumb rather than just from a character saying something funny and smart. I think that's why Iris reminds me a bit of Lana and Laurel in that sense compared to a Chloe or a Felicity. I think Lana often had a certain regal-ness about her, that felt like the writers didn't really want her to let loose and ever look dumb. On Smallville I always interpreted that as it being an extension of the whole theme of Clark putting Lana on a pedestal. But I feel like Laurel suffered from this too that she wasn't allowed to be funny in the same way Felicity was or that Cisco for example is. (I don't think that Caitlin is particularly funny, so I don't see her as a Chloe in that way) Season 1 was a lot lighter that way. I think another thing is that makes Westallen come off as more formal sometimes is the way they dress? Iris dresses very grown up for lack of a better word, or fashionable in a way that suggests lots of effort. Compared to Mon-El running around in t-shirts and sweaters and jumpsuits for the majority of his scenes. Again, this sometimes reminds me of Lana where it seemed like TPTB obviously loved putting her into a wide range of cute outfits, but that in her case seemed like totally inappropriate for a high school girl to have. Not in the sense of being too grown up, but more in the sense of, where does she get that money? In the clips is also seems like a lot of Barry and Iris scenes take place into slightly dimmer lighting, compared to Kara's apartment that seems a lot more flooded with light. It would make me super sad if that really was to TPTB still not having figured out 3 seasons in how to properly light their black lead actress. (though Supergirl has an often very light/bright color palette in general even outside romantic scenes and Flash often has a dark color palette even for non romantic scenes) For comparison, here the sex scene of Fitz and Olivia on Scandal (I think it makes for a good comparison despite Scandal being a more explicit show, because it's a more straight up romantic "earned" scene rather than a torrid sexy one, and it's an example of a "flooded with light" sex scene): And since we were taking big goodbyes. Karamel for comparison, when Mon-El is whisked away to space (no kiss) and when she sends him away to face down a big villain (small kiss). The finale promo has featured a scene of them in bed together (clothed, maybe a dream sequence). Since the finale is presumed to have yet another big goodbye scene, I'll keep you updated if it has anything special about it. I personally don't expect it to be all that different than the scenes from around the first time Mon-El's parents came to try an fetch him. IMO there's also the question whether Kara and Mon-El aren't spared some of this formality because the show it a lot more coy about whether they are even supposed to be an endgame couple, since there is a good chance that he's supposed to only be more of a tragic love of hers or that it's his destiny to eventually leave her and lead the Legion of Superheroes. So some amount of formality doesn't have to be the worst thing, if it means that a couple is "chosen by the writers". Edited May 20, 2017 by tofutan 1 Link to comment
ruby24 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) Barry and Iris dealing with more serious stuff might work for recent episodes, but when they first started dating in the first half of the season, I thought their interactions then were especially formal. It was so weird. For a couple that finally started dating, things between them just seemed way too stiff in some ways. Where was the passion? I think that was slightly lessened after having them move in together, but there's still not nearly enough casual physical affection shown between them, kisses are too chaste most of the time, and cut away from as fast as possible if it's going to lead to any kind of making out. Everything's just so minimal! Except for the verbal declarations of love, but with the bare minimum amount of couple-y, physical interaction to back that up. I just find it strange, because I've watched many, many shows over the years and this has NEVER been a problem with any other main couple on a TV show that I've ever seen. I think the natural thing is to want to see the couple kissing and together and all once they finally get together, but this one just really shies away from it as much as possible, and I don't know who to blame- the writers and directors, or the actors. I think they ALL bare the brunt of it in this case, because one could pick up the slack from the other if it's lacking. The writing and stage direction is certainly lacking in this case, but the actors do not put any extra effort into this to overcome that. I point to that one episode a couple weeks ago that focused on Joe/Cecile- they're an extremely minor plot point, but in this one episode I saw more playful, affectionate, natural interaction between Jesse L. Martin and the actress who plays Cecile than most anything that Barry and Iris do. I don't think it was stage direction either. They seemed close and intimate, just conveyed by their body language and casual affection. That's good acting and I wish the younger actors could step that up. I would be willing to bet that Gustin and Patton are not especially (or at all) close off screen though. Edited May 20, 2017 by ruby24 2 Link to comment
tofutan May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) Like I said, the certain formalness reminds me a bit of Clark/Lana and Oliver/Laurel. I think in Clark/Lana the actors weren't very experienced, but I also don't think that they had any hangups. Like whenever the scenes called for it, they did this really creepy looking, but very open mouthed looking kissing. Which I don't think looked too attractive, but it clearly wasn't a case of the actors' lack of trying. Oliver/Laurel is even harder to describe. Because it's a lot more supposed to be sensual and stuff. And I don't even think the actors completely lacked sexual chemistry. I think one point really is being the "slightly outside the circle" love interest and TPTB not giving them as much chance for be just silly together because this is a serious/epic/dramatic(tm) love story. Like even if they are given scenes where they laugh or horse around, there is still the weight of having to look cool and respectable or perfectly precious. And characters like Felicity have an advantage because they started out as a comic relief character and then drama got added onto it. Rather than being a character who was always in the drama look and is doomed to be stuck in the drama loop forever, like Laurel. So I do think there can be setups where it's story of an uphill battle for actors to struggle against the pressure of having to be a dramatic lead. Now I like Westallen a lot more than those other couples, because I do think the writing is backing them up (while to me it took a long time till the show started treating Lana more like a real character and Laurel it seems maybe had to turn into a completely new character for the writers to maybe do that, but IF it turns out that Black Siren gets a better arc than Laurel ever did then that is a good example of a character who is really trapped in their role to the extent where the writers aren't having any fun either and the actors can't really do much) and because I do think that they have very sweet chemistry. And I also don't think that all couples have to be the same and have to follow the same formula. It's okay if they find their groove in a different way. I can see the complaints about Iris not getting her own POV and her own storylines, but I still think both Clark and Lana and Oliver and Laurel featured way more examples of the writers being willing to screw over the character completely for the sake of drama. Compared to that I think Flash is much more respectful to Westallen. So me as a viewer it comes off as the writing being fairly protective of Westallen as a concept. So I don't really perceive Snowbarry as a real thing at all. To me the priorities of the writers are clearly Westallen as a concept (even if that concept doesn't necessarily mean the most realistic down to earth couple writing), vis a vis other romantic options at least (we can debate whether they give more respect and care to Barry's platonic relationships with other men). Edited May 20, 2017 by tofutan 2 Link to comment
tofutan May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 (edited) Quote And what does Iris's wardrobe have to do with Westallen being more tactile/intimate? It doesn't, but it affects whether they come across are more grown up/format as a couple compared to "lounging around in t-shirts and joking around" couples. If she is dressed a lot more formally than for example the rest of the people in Star Labs, it makes her look more untouchable. Olitz move in a world where everybody looks like that. But if let's say Lana has a wardrobe or make up that looks more serious than the other high school characters around her that makes her stick out. Think of it looping back into when people say they think Iris looks older or that they come across as a more serious and formal couple. Barry and Iris are the couple who goes on formal dates together or drinks wine from high stemmed glasses. Kara and Mon-El sit at home and watch Games of Throne together and joke about Kara being unemployed. That doesn't mean that the Kara and Mon-El approach is better whatsoever. Just the opposite. There can be different types of couples and tv is also wish fulfillment and why not portray relationships where you dress up for a date together rather than only slumming around and arguing with each other. I'm sure many people have the latter, but would prefer the first option. Not to mention I thought that was an interesting touch as well because you can read it as Barry and Iris having to actively step out of sibling/best friend mode (something that isn't a factor in Kara and Mon-El since they were strangers at the beginning of the season, so them familiarity is something they gain, while Barry and Iris spent their life being familiar with each other => of course the show can overdo it; but as a concept I see some logic to it) Quote But Iris hasn't been "outside the circle" for over a season so why's that still a factor? I think it's quite hard to really describe what I mean. It's more like a feeling? It's definitely not just "X knows the secret/X doesn't know the secret". A lot of it is whether the character is actively involved in the episode to episode action plots and how much they actively contribute to it. That's why Chloe felt closer to that than Lana, even at a time when neither of them knew Clark's secret. Because Lana was one step further away from the action. And Chloe still often supplied useful information that told Clark where he needed to go to defeat the badguy of the week. I have this theory that a lot of writers like having love interests that are slightly removed from the thick of the action because it means that the hero/heroine has two worlds or two modes they can go back and forth in. (or they at least like that concept in theory and then discover that it's actually hard to write) Edited May 20, 2017 by tofutan Link to comment
ruby24 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 13 minutes ago, doram said: Not if the actors are being directed not to. If the direction says: "Barry and Iris lying apart from each other and looking up at the wall", there isn't any room for leeway regardless of comfort. And if the script says "Barry and Iris wake up on what might be their last day together, holding on to each other for dear life", then they'd be holding on to each other, comfort-level or not. If exes like Delena, Brucas & Sydney/Vaughn can fake being passionately in love with each other, then Grant and Patton can cuddle in bed. If they're not cuddling in bed, it's because they're not being directed to. And look at that - body contact, cuddling and what looks like tickling. Completely PG and definitely selling intimacy. And it's not just that they're happy. They could have been happy too if they were lying 2 meters apart and laughing across at each other. Okay, but what if the script just said "Barry and Iris lie in bed silently"? That leaves room for something, imo. And yes, I definitely agree that that scene of Mon-El and Kara cuddling in bed is the kind of physical intimacy Barry and Iris need more of. Link to comment
TwistedandBored May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 I don't even know how the Iris is older conversation started but Iris is not older than Barry and this is not an older woman dating a younger man story. Even if it was, it shouldn't matter. Anyways, the show has went on record saying both Iris and Barry are around the same age. I am pretty sure they hinted at Barry being months or a year older. It is just Barry always young looking for his age. The way Caitlin and Iris carry themselves makes them look older but I am pretty sure the boys and girls are suppose to be close in ages. 1 hour ago, ruby24 said: Okay, but what if the script just said "Barry and Iris lie in bed silently"? That leaves room for something, imo. And yes, I definitely agree that that scene of Mon-El and Kara cuddling in bed is the kind of physical intimacy Barry and Iris need more of. Yeah, I really think sometimes the actors can get away with giving their characters and ships a lot more than the script calls for. Besides WestAllen most of my other couples on TV have had the actors add lip stuff to it. I remember one my favorite soap couple happen because the actor told the new actress the many ways they can take advantage of the script by making their couple more emotional and connected. The actor left and new actor came and the actress passed on what she learned over the years by solidifying the new actor in the role. So, actors do have some ways they can make things work to their couples advantage but I don't think CP and GG have that kind of TV experience to actually know they can do more with their scenes. 3 Link to comment
johntfs May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 7 hours ago, doram said: I would love to see Iris treated as an equal partner in the Westallen relationship but she's not. First date, first sex, moving in together, breaking up, reconciling… All these milestones are driven by Barry. The only time Iris is assertive about their relationship is the extent of the PDA - and even that was played for laughs. It's still Barry that ends up deciding to move out of Joe's to facilitate it. Iris is very much the "sit pretty and give a pep talk" partner in their relationship. So it's odd that this Black woman is described as "pants-wearing" when she's probably one of the most passive females on the CWTV where her relationship with Barry is concerned. One thing to consider is that I've mostly been talking about Barry and Iris as of Season One. Iris in Season One struck me as being more together and ahead in life. I really didn't think Barry in Season One should have been with Iris. That Iris deserved a man, like Eddie, instead of an overgrown boy. So, yes, Iris in Season One seemed older and more mature to me. My impressions now are quite different because of the shitty way she's been treated. If I'd started watching the show this season, I'd have said that Iris was the younger of the two. Iris in Season Three has been a passively supportive ornament of a person. She wasn't even involved in trying to prevent her own murder. She just stood around hoping her White knight would save her. I've hated the way she's been characterized here. There have been flashes of the old Iris, but overall Iris comes across as an Object to be saved, not a woman to be loved. 4 Link to comment
BkWurm1 May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 9 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said: but I don't think CP and GG have that kind of TV experience to actually know they can do more with their scenes. Personality probably is a factor as well. GG is great and friendly but I can easily imaging him being more passive and more likely to just defer to the directors or the script. 5 Link to comment
johntfs May 20, 2017 Share May 20, 2017 4 minutes ago, BkWurm1 said: Personality probably is a factor as well. GG is great and friendly but I can easily imaging him being more passive and more likely to just defer to the directors or the script. That seems to be a big different between him and Stephen Amell. Amell has pretty clear preferences about characters and stories that he likes. I think if it had been fully up to him, Oliver and Felicity would be married with a couple of kids by now. I would love to read a behind the scenes story about Arrow, especially in the first year. It's hard for me to overstate the impression I got from that first scene of Oliver and Felicity. Emily Bett Rickards played the scene like the bit part that it was written to be. I imagine she answered a casting call for local actors, got handed a script and glasses and was told to play a "cute, quirky, nerdy IT girl." The way Oliver had been previously shown, I'd have expected him be surface polite but mildly annoyed and impatient with her. It felt like there would have been several scenes like this, with Oliver going to the IT department and meeting some new weird annoying person down there. Instead, Amell played Oliver as being utterly charmed by Felicity, like something very close to love at first sight. It's hard for me to believe Amell was specifically directed to play that scene that way. I would love to know the story behind it, because I just "know" he really liked Emily and fought for her to come back and be woven into the greater Arrow story-lines, eventually becoming part of Team Arrow. 1 Link to comment
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.