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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
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Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Dean is out in the middle of nowhere by the water in a suit and tie and then he apparently is kissed by Amara. He doesn't look to happy about the whole thing, so there's that :(:( . Where the hell is Cas?

 

Can I be Calliope and eat the authors before they ruin the show?

 

Sorry for the negativity I just hate this Dean/Amara SL with the fire of 1000 suns.

 

Speculations

 

--Amara either kills Cas, since we see angels being killed and another one seems to have knifed himself in the throat who I thought was Cas at first but it's not or she is threatening to kill Cas if Dean doesn't become her consort or something gross like that and maybe that's why he's alone with her in the middle of nowhere...apparently. 

 

--  Amara offers to save Sam from Lucifer and the Cage if Dean joins her forever...and he goes missing with Amara. I think Dean will be the 'Where Art Thou Brother" by the end of the episode.

Edited by catrox14
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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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SueB

SueB

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Yes.  Thank goodness for that NOT being Cas because Amara kills them with a wave of her hand.  So, Cas needs to NOT confront Amara or that is going to end badly.  Don't get me wrong, I was Cas in the episode.  And maybe he will be the one to tip Dean off that bad shit is going down.  Perhaps the Angels go to confront Amara after she throws her power around that town and Cas picks up on Angel Radio what's happening.  

 

It looks like Dean, for some reason, is waiting in an open field in his suit.  This appears to be where Amara is kissing him.  

 

But Dean seems to be getting around this episode (okay, minds out of the gutter people...).  Ahem.  Seriously tho, he's with Sam in the Bunker. He's with Sam confronting Crowley. He's with Sam and Crowley confronting a chained Rowena.  

 

Then we've got Rowena walking with Sam and Crowley (but NOT Dean) into what looks pretty much like a Lord of the Rings set. Plus her saying some spell.

 

So... if I was to hazard a guess... I'm thinking Dean is called away by potentially Cas to look into the Amara disturbance and Sam and Crowley proceed without him to get Sam to communicate with Luci in the cage.  Maybe Sam actually goes INTO the Cage.  

 

Confusing bits:

- Why a Fed suit?  It looks like he's working a case... how could they have time for that in what appears to be a VERY full episode.

- Where the hell is Castiel???  I want to know how he is and what he's been doing?

- How did Crowley just conjure up Rowena?  Has he had her in his prison for a while?  

 

In sum... this looks like a JAMMED PACKED episode.  

 

And sorry, catrox... looks like Dean is kissing Amara in the "now". No dream. No flashback.  Sorry for the squick.  

 

And where is Aeryn BTW?  I'm expecting him to "wax poetic" about Sam getting Chosen One status again.  Anyone know??

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catrox14

catrox14

I think Aeryn is in Europe, so the time difference may be playing in here. Or she got so frustrated by this episode that she rage-quit Supernatural entirely? J/k, Aeryn!

 

Hope all is well with her. ;/

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7kstar

7kstar

It looks like Dean, for some reason, is waiting in an open field in his suit.  This appears to be where Amara is kissing him.  

 

But Dean seems to be getting around this episode (okay, minds out of the gutter people...).  Ahem.  Seriously tho, he's with Sam in the Bunker. He's with Sam confronting Crowley. He's with Sam and Crowley confronting a chained Rowena.  

 

Then we've got Rowena walking with Sam and Crowley (but NOT Dean) into what looks pretty much like a Lord of the Rings set. Plus her saying some spell.

 

So... if I was to hazard a guess... I'm thinking Dean is called away by potentially Cas to look into the Amara disturbance and Sam and Crowley proceed without him to get Sam to communicate with Luci in the cage.  Maybe Sam actually goes INTO the Cage.  

 

Confusing bits:

- Why a Fed suit?  It looks like he's working a case... how could they have time for that in what appears to be a VERY full episode.

- Where the hell is Castiel???  I want to know how he is and what he's been doing?

- How did Crowley just conjure up Rowena?  Has he had her in his prison for a while?  

 

In sum... this looks like a JAMMED PACKED episode.  

 

And sorry, catrox... looks like Dean is kissing Amara in the "now". No dream. No flashback.  Sorry for the squick.  

 

And where is Aeryn BTW?  I'm expecting him to "wax poetic" about Sam getting Chosen One status again.  Anyone know??

Amara & Dean's kiss...not sure why now?  Perhaps he was on a case and gets tricked into meeting her?  There is a lot that is hard to figure out, when I try to pause it, it just stops...so wasn't able to pick out that much more.

 

But I agree it is jammed pack, that I don't see a sign of Cas and maybe that is why Dean is meeting Amara.  Maybe she's threatening Cas if he doesn't... There have been some many little things that seem off especially after last night's ep.  Dean was always good with kids, and suddenly he's not?  I'm a bit wondering if the mid final will finally shed the light on what is wrong with our boys? 

 

I'm also afraid that they have put too much in the story, which causes a big MELT down instead of the intended effect.  Will wait and see.

 

But it does look like the writers are giving Sam the bigger story-line, not necessarily the best story line.  What will happen the second half...waiting for the other shoe to drop or perhaps I'll be surprised.  It would be nice to be surprised!  :)

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

"Sam starts exploring these visions,” Ackles explained. “And he starts trying to figure out who is talking to him and what they mean. He kind of takes it upon himself to go there without Dean and kind of leaves me in the dust and so, then of course, Dean has to follow. But what that does is make for some interesting alliances.”

 

 

*sigh*  They keep saying that Sam and Dean will work side-by-side, fighting together, but this doesn't exactly sound like it.  

 

I hope Sam and Crowley isn't just Sam and Ruby Redux.  Right now it has all the hallmarks -- in the fight against a Big Bad Female, Sam has a plan, Dean doesn't like it, Dean advises against it, Sam does it anyway.  

 

I've had hope this whole season, but they keep letting me down.  I feel like they're trolling us, promising us these amazing episodes and stories and returning characters.  They're overhyping the season and not having the intended effect.  Not for me, anyway.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Yeah, I don't get this show's fascination with one-brother-has-a-reckless-plan,-the-other-says-"NO"-so-the-brother-of-the-first-part-goes-ahead-with-his foolish-plan-leaving-the-brother-of-the-second-to-go-save-the-first-from-himself? 

 

Can't they ever just realize there's more than one way to summon a demon and each work their own angle with each other's blessings?

 

Or, as Gabriel himself put it, "Can't we all just get along?"

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catrox14

catrox14

I don't think Amara is as unknowing about humanity as she makes it seem. Remember she said to her younger self in the mirror "Stay to our purpose" in the Bad Seed when Crowley was trying to influence her. And she said she has a score to settle which is presumably with God and the Archangels for locking her away.

 

Maybe Amara needs/wants to get Lucifer and Michael but since they are in the Cage she can't find them or get to them on her own so she needs Sam to get there and she is sending Sam visions that he thinks are from God telling him to go.  What I don't know is if she wants to kill Lucifer/Michael or turn them to her side so she can go after God.

 

As to why we see Nickifer instead of Lucifer!Sam might be because Sam's mind can't allow him to see himself in the Cage so he's seeing Nickifer instead. Also, Mark Pellegrino reasons....

 

Maybe Sam thinks he needs to become Lucifer's meatsuit to fight the Darkness and put her in the Cage but maybe she needs Lucifer's meatsuit to start a new war with God with Lucifer on her side? Not sure how that is going to work....

 

As for Dean's part, it hasn't made sense to me that Dean is not MORE upset and trying to actively prevent Sam from going to the Cage again since IMO that would be  LITERAL WORST even worse than Sam dying, that Dean could imagine happening to Sam again. IMO normal!Dean would lock Sam in the dungeon and throw away the key before he'd let him go down that path again.

 

But why would she attack Sam in Crowley's lair if she needs him to get to Lucifer? Was her connection to Dean preventing her from killing him because of Dean's "Save Sammy" raison d etre influencing her?

 

Was she was testing how far Dean will go to protect her? Would he kill Sam to save her? Does she need Dean to protect both her and Sam? This part kind of messes with my theory.

 

Michael didn't seem to be in the cage with Lucifer....so why is that? Was he released when we saw that white birdlike creature fly out of the Darkness cloud? 

 

Crowley says he knows where the Cage is..what is his angle with the Cage and Lucifer.  He might be willing to work with Sam and Dean to keep Lucifer in the Cage.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I don't know where you got that first pic, but it has clearly been 'shopped by someone.  This is the pic from the article you linked to:

 

rzpPcUk.jpg

 

No way this is a wedding.  Those angels are probably there to try to kill Amara and Dean stops them.  Which freaks him the fuck out, of course, but whatever.  Not gonna get worked up over this show anymore.

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catrox14

catrox14

I'm just talking about how bright his eyes look and from what I understand his eyes look more like that IRL. Probably just a difference on the computer that the photo was uploaded on where the colors are brighter. There is no photoshopping there that I can see. 

 

It's really not germaine though to my question about what the fuck is happening in that scene.

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catrox14

catrox14

If it's a wedding, what are those three angel dudes with blades out doing there? And, yeah, Dean does not look happy to be there.

 

Groomsman?? LOL.

 

I do not like this ONE LITTLE BIT.  Maybe those angels have captured Cas and they offered him to Amara and she's using him to get Dean to do her bidding.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I'm just talking about how bright his eyes look and from what I understand his eyes look more like that IRL. Probably just a difference on the computer that the photo was uploaded on where the colors are brighter. There is no photoshopping there that I can see. 

 

It's really not germaine though to my question about what the fuck is happening in that scene.

 

Excuse me, but I said what I thought is happening in that scene.  I have no idea why you ignored it, since you seem to think it's more important than the differences in the photos.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Oh, those first images totally look like the contrast has been heightened greatly which are making Dean's eyes sparkle, but they look fiddled with anyway.

 

Anyhoo, I'm wondering if the angels were there maybe to kill Dean and Amara was protecting him. Which probably has him all pissed off to no en that he needs her help right then. I really don't know, but a wedding seems unlikely to me. But then again, a lot of things seem unlikely to me.

 

Isn't Cass supposed to do something that goes very wrong--like when doesn't Cass do something that goes very wrong? Anyway, perhaps Dean ends up making a deal with Amara in order to save Cass from his fellow angels or something? 

 

Yeah, I still don't know.

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

Somehow I think "groomsmen Angels with matching blades" doesn't make sense. (J/K) I see you posted LOL.
 

Oh, those first images totally look like the contrast has been heightened greatly which are making Dean's eyes sparkle, but they look fiddled with anyway.
 
Anyhoo, I'm wondering if the angels were there maybe to kill Dean and Amara was protecting him. Which probably has him all pissed off to no en that he needs her help right then. I really don't know, but a wedding seems unlikely to me. But then again, a lot of things seem unlikely to me.
 
Isn't Cass supposed to do something that goes very wrong--like when doesn't Cass do something that goes very wrong? Anyway, perhaps Dean ends up making a deal with Amara in order to save Cass from his fellow angels or something? 
 
Yeah, I still don't know.


1) Everytime you or someone else says "Anyhoo" I hear it in my head as if spoken like a British matron. Just so 'ya know.

2) The previews have her killing off the Angels pretty dang quickly.  I COULD see the Angels somehow cluing in that Dean has a connection and trying to kill him... Amara shows up and zaps their feathery assess..... and then lays one on him. Because that's how she rolls and he (as Jensen has suggested) appears unable to control himself in her presence. As in he loses independent control of his mind.

3) I f*ing love Mark Pellegrino.  I can't wait for Wednesday.

4) Rowena's dress is once again rockin'.  I get this idea that perhaps the wardrobe department went fancy on her once and got a big response.  Mgmt told them to go for it and now they are just like kids in a candy store.  Ruth is so tiny and DRESSABLE.  Sorry, but it's like having a living "Witchie-Poo" Barbie.  She's petite with flaming ginger hair. She pulls off the grand gown as if she was born to it.  After YEARS of flannel and dowdy Americana, Wardrobe is rolling in silks and lace.  Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

Regarding mind-control and Dean. I was thinking on this.  If Amara is the Darkness and God is the Light... then what else is Amara possibly the opposite of?  The obvious answer is Free Will.  Maybe she just doesn't get Free Will for humans as even a concept.  She's said they don't matter. In which case, Dean's will may be naturally sapped by Amara without her really putting much thought into it.  Jensen said it's like he goes into a trance or something.  I keep thinking about that will-sucking spell that Magnus does.  I could see this being potentially similar effect.  But Jensen said Amara is curious about Dean.  So what IS it about Dean (besides the Mark and he looks like Jensen Ackles) that makes her fascinated with him?  That's the key, I think.

Edited by SueB
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I was noticing how beautiful his eyes looked that's what the OMG was about. If you think that I think that is more important that the rest of my worries about those photos...well okay.

 

I didn't ignore anything. I literally did not see your additional comment because it was buried at the bottom under the picture you posted. Hope that clears it up.

 

I would appreciate it if, in the future, you not chastise me over what's "germaine" to a discussion when I did, in fact, discuss what you were talking about.  And, for the record, I said that you think that what is happening in the episode is more important that the differences in the photos, not the other way around.

 

In related news:

 

http://tvline.com/2015/12/04/supernatural-lucifer-returns-season-11-spoilers-photos/

 

“We’ve just done the first scene where all five of us” — Sam, Dean, Castiel, Crowley and Rowena — “were together,” her portrayer Ruth Connell noted during filming of the episode.

 

 

I'm glad to hear that Cas is, indeed, in the episode.  However, I'm concerned that we don't see him in the promo.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

1) Everytime you or someone else says "Anyhoo" I hear it in my head as if spoken like a British matron. Just so 'ya know.

 

I've always wanted to be able to do accents...I hope I sound smarter in your head, at least. ;)

 

2) The previews have her killing off the Angels pretty dang quickly.  I COULD see the Angels somehow cluing in that Dean has a connection and trying to kill him... Amara shows up and zaps their feathery assess..... and then lays one on him. Because that's how she rolls and he (as Jensen has suggested) appears unable to control himself in her presence. As in he loses independent control of his mind.

 

I'm thinking the angels have soooo many reasons to be trying to kill Dean. He being Cass's friend and a general pain in their collective asses for over five years now. I'm working on an idea that Cass might be trying to lure Amara into a trap of sorts, the angels show up to kill Cass, Dean shows up to save Cass, but has to make a deal with Amara in order to accomplish that goal? 

 

Who knows? I'm still not sure that Cass will survive the next episode, so...

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SueB

SueB

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I've always wanted to be able to do accents...I hope I sound smarter in your head, at least. ;)

Think 'Robin Williams in Mrs Doubtfire' and you're pretty much there.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Think 'Robin Williams in Mrs Doubtfire' and you're pretty much there.

 

Oh Dear, that sounds frightfully positive and...well...downright perky. I'm not sure how I feel about being thought of as ::shudder:: positive, let alone perky. ;)

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

I just reread the transcript for Meta Fiction and it's ill-defined.  Castiel and Gabriel's interaction was created by Metatron, but did he create Gabriel or use him?  Neither Gabriel nor Metatron ever says with any certainty:

 

After that, they don't mention Gabriel again.  We do know that Metatron and Gadreel used the Horn of Gabriel to lure angels, which might have included Gabriel.  I think an argument can be made for either side.

 

Daisy, thank you for posting this! I have a lot to think about!!

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

Oh Dear, that sounds frightfully positive and...well...downright perky. I'm not sure how I feel about being thought of as ::shudder:: positive, let alone perky. ;)

 

Just go with it Dot! After all SueB is our resident "Perky" around here. She could probably use all the help she can get!

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Citizen Fang.  Holy Terror.  The Things We Left Behind.

 

I suspect Carver is going to give us something devastating and/or controversial in the mid-season finale.  Goody.

 

The obvious death would be Rowena because she's....  Well, expendable, I suppose you could say.  She's not a member of the core four.  She's only barely been on the show this year.  She's not an ally, nor an enemy.  Would her death be surprising?  I expect not.

 

Crowley is next, perhaps.  Also not an ally nor enemy, though closer to an enemy these days.  His death would be shocking if only because everyone loves him so.  

 

Cas is next.  Like Rowena, he's hardly been around.  He's re-powered, which would make him a useful ally -- so his death would normally be assured.  He has such a large fanbase that I think Twitter might collapse under the rage if Castiel dies.

 

That leaves Sam and Dean.  Death is not in the cards, but could one of them disappear?  Sure.  Sam might be persuaded to stay in the cage to let Lucifer out.  Amara might convince Dean to stay with her in exchange for the life of another.

 

One guaranteed spec?  I will be greatly annoyed.  I haven't liked any of Carver's mid-season finales yet.  *sigh*

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

I'm trying to look at the Amara kissing Dean scene around my squick factor :\,  and trying to figure why Amara, God's sister, would be kissing Dean at all. So just based off the brief promo and stills some thoughts:

 

--The most optimistic thing I can come up with is that she took Dean's soul whilst they were in the Vortex in 11.01 to make sure she was protected at all costs.  So now that she's grown up she doesn't need him anymore and rather than continue to make him live soulless she is giving it back to him via a kiss.  FAT CHANCE.

 

--Thinking about the "Girl You'll Be a Woman Soon" song and 'you'll need a man' thing, maybe she's decided she wants Dean to be her first kiss because she's fascinated by him and that once she kisses him....she'll just let him go? (hahahahahahah I can't even say that with a straight face)

 

My optimism is waning file :

 

-Assuming Dean is there not of his own free will since he doesn't yet seem to be reciprocating the kiss maybe she is taking Dean's soul. Problem:  She didn't kiss any of her other victims, she just sucked it right out from a distance but you know they weren't Dean Winchester's lips either and she wasn't 18...and possibly horny yet.

 

--Dean is making a deal with Amara for either Sam or Cas' life).  This would go against the theme of Save All the People set out in 11.01 but it would be in keeping with Dean's raison d etre of Save Sammy and I'm guessing Cas too now.

 

-- If Dean decides to try and live by "Save All the People" maybe Amara is offering Dean an eternity with her in exchange for her not smiting all of humanity and the kiss is just whatever...

 

--Worst Case Scenario (please writing gods...don't do this) :

 

From 11.06: Amara: You were the first thing I saw when I was freed, and it had been so long. Maybe that's it -- my first experience of his creation. You can't help but represent that for me the sweet triumph and the even sweeter folly of what he's wrought. There's no fighting it.  I'm fascinated."

 

 

Assuming Metatron isn't lying, (which is a big assumption) and God did sacrifice Amara to create humanity in HIS image, then maybe she's decided to create humanity all over again in HER image and Dean is going to be the unwitting Baby Daddy since Dean represents God's creation to her. ( Oh gods...that would also explain why Cas and Dean were randomly talking about Jenny Jones and Baby Daddies.  /kill me now if that happens...Or maybe she wants to use Dean has bait to get God to come back and fight it out with her.

 

Anyway on to other thoughts.

 

Dean in his Fed threads standing alone in the middle of nowhere: 

 

Could that be like a new Garden of Eden or something where Amara wants to make new humans to piss off God? Or see my above horror scenario....?

 

But mostly I'm wondering if that shot comes before or after the scene with Amara?

 

If it's before, it's probably just an establishing shot for the scene with Amara and the 3 angels and he was zapped there by her or other someone else

 

That said, isn't Dean supposed to have a scene with Billie the Reaper the reaper in 11.09? Or is it 11.10? 

 

If the scene with Billie is before the scene with Amara then :

 

--Could that expanse be the Empty?  Maybe Dean is killed whilst wearing his Fed threads and Billie the Reaper takes him there hence the Billie/Dean scene. But Amara shows up to save him because they are bound and she said they will ALWAYS help each other. Not sure why the 3 angels would be there though unless it's her minions now or something. Maybe they are reapers and are there to make sure Dean stays in the Empty?  And maybe the kiss is to restore Dean's life? 

 

--Final scene of 11.09. Maybe Amara took Dean's soul with a kiss or the kiss is sealing a deal with Dean...in the meanwhile Cas, Lucifer, Sam, Rowena and Crowley combine forces to put Amara in the Cage, but Dean is killed in the process somehow.  Maybe the Empty = Oblivion = dying soulless and you just stay where ever you are killed? So Dean's Empty is that expanse? Billie explains what happened to him and then leaves. Dean is standing alone.

 

--If the scene with Billie is in 11.10, then that shot could still be the final scene of 11.09 with Dean standing there alone after Amara events and is looking around alone, maybe calling out for Sam...parallel to end of s3(Dean in Hell) and end of s7(Dean in Purgatory). SWERVE: Sam is actually in the Cage and Dean is in the Empty and they are each calling out for the other one. Amara has swanned off and the battle for Earth begins in 11.10 with Dean in the Empty and Sam in the Cage

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

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In the IGN interview, Jensen said he had yet to film with Billie (it was coming up) and they were filming 11.10.

 

I'll bet money that the final shot of the cliffhanger is a Sam/Lucifer moment.  J2 were both surprised how "BIG" Carver has already gone for the mid-season.  A Sam "yes"/possession makes sense to me. And boy is THAT going to piss Dean off.

 

 

Or maybe she wants to use Dean has bait to get God to come back and fight it out with her.

 

I think she's DEFINITELY calling out God in 11.09. And I think he's NOT going to answer.

 

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think God is going to stay out of the fray for QUITE sometime.  Rationale:  If God showed up, it'd either be a mano a mano power battle (aka Apocalypse FOR REAL) or a yellow crayon speech.  I think Amara's too pissed for the yellow crayon speech.  So, I think God won't show up straight away because there's too much collateral damage.  I think God is going to send his creations at her.  And Dean is his Number 1 weapon. Even though Amara has picked Dean, Dean has ALWAYS been Team Free Will and Team Humanity.  This is exactly what God wants. So all Dean has to be is... Dean.  And if Amara's fascination with Dean is such that she can't bear to kill him.... well then there's a crack in her anger that maybe can be exploited.  Maybe she'll come to accept that all this humanity and his creations are not worthless.  Maybe starting over is not such a good idea.  Yes, it's a variant on yellow-crayon but I expect much more action to transpire before she comes round to this way of possibly thinking.  IDK... we'll see.  But bottom line: I think God is going to avoid a direct power battle because of collateral damage.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Thanks for the info on Billie the Reaper.  I don't read or watch as many of the interviews as I used to.

 

But, man, I really hope they don't have Sam allow Lucifer to possess him again. That's just gonna be so redundant.  We still have Michael in the Cage theoretically, unless he got out and that's the birdlike thing that came flying out of the Darkness Vortex.

 

I'm kind of hoping for a big ole misdirect and it's really Michael that possesses Dean before he goes off to meet Amara. Maybe she won't be able to sense that Michael is in Dean and that's where the battle begins? Maybe that's why Dean gets to the spot alone because Michael teleported him there. I would be pretty happy to see Jensen play Michael at long last.

Edited by catrox14
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rue721

rue721

Here's the background for "the yellow crayon speech":

 

When one of the main characters on Buffy, Willow, saw her girlfriend killed in front of her, she went completely batshit. Willow was a witch, so when she went nuts, she somehow soaked up all the magic in the world and turned ultra-powerful, and then she started on a killing spree. She decided to destroy the entire world, and was about to do it, when her bff, Xander, confronted her with "the yellow crayon speech." Here's the confrontation, from a transcript:

 

WILLOW: You can't stop this.
XANDER: Yeah, I get that. It's just, where else am I gonna go? You've been my best friend my whole life. World gonna end ... where else would I want to be?
WILLOW: (scornfully) Is this the master plan? You're going to stop me by telling me you love me?
XANDER: Well, I was going to walk you off a cliff and hand you an anvil, but ... it seemed kinda cartoony.
WILLOW: Still making jokes.
XANDER: I'm not joking. I know you're in pain. I can't imagine the pain you're in. And I know you're about to do something apocalyptically (glancing back at the statue) evil and stupid, and hey. (spreading out his arms) I still want to hang. You're Willow.
WILLOW: (angry) Don't call me that.
XANDER: First day of kindergarten. You cried because you broke the yellow crayon, and you were too afraid to tell anyone. You've come pretty far, ending the world, not a terrific notion. But the thing is? Yeah. I love you. I loved crayon-breaky Willow and I love ... scary veiny Willow. So if I'm going out, it's here. If you wanna kill the world? Well, then start with me. I've earned that.
WILLOW: (upset) You think I won't?
XANDER: It doesn't matter. I'll still love you.
WILLOW: (angry) Shut up.

 

Willow gestures with her hand. No magic bolts of light, but Xander's head jerks to the side as if he's been hit. Three parallel cuts appear on his cheek, bloody as if scratched. He puts his hand up to them, looks at his fingers.

Willow watches, panting and looking a bit nervous. Xander looks back up at her.

 

XANDER: I love you.

 

Willow makes another slashing gesture. Xander doubles over and falls to his knees. Panting, he gets up again, and we see that his shirt is ripped open over the heart, more scratches visible on his chest. He pants and grimaces from the pain but faces Willow again.

 

XANDER: (panting) I ... love y-
WILLOW: Shut up!!

 

Now she does throw a blast of magic at him, and he staggers backward but doesn't fall down. Willow still holds her hand out, a little bit of magic crackling around it but not as much as she had expected. She looks surprised and anxious. Xander moves slowly toward her.

 

XANDER: I love you, Willow.
WILLOW: Stop!

 

She sends another magic blast, but it's weak and barely hurts Xander at all. He continues walking toward her. Willow continues holding out her hand and making the magic gesture, but nothing happens. She starts to get teary.

 

XANDER: I love you.
WILLOW: Stop.

 

Willow starts to cry and, as Xander gets right up to her, she starts hitting him with her fists. Xander just stands there and takes it. After a moment she stops hitting and starts to cry for real. She falls to her knees and Xander kneels with her, puts his arms around her and holds her while she sobs.

 

XANDER: I love you.

 

As Willow continues to cry in Xander's arms, the veins fade away from her face and her hair returns to its usual red.

 

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Since it comes up so often, what the hell is the "yellow-crayon speech"?  I googled it, but since I never watched Buffy, it has no meaning for me.  What would be the Supernatural equivalent?  (Assuming something like it has happened.)

 

Combined with Lucifer beating the shit out of Dean, Sam seeing the soldiers in the ashtray is akin to Willow remembering the yellow crayon.  It was the thing that triggered Sam to get control over Lucifer, or some think Lucifer saw them and let go of Sam long enough for Sam to get control back

So 11.09 is the midwinter finale, and 11.10 picks up in January sometime?

 

11.10 is on January 20 :(

Edited by catrox14
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Here's the background for "the yellow crayon speech":

 

Edited for length.

 

Thanks. 

 

I don't see how Dean could give Amara a "yellow crayon speech".  I know they're supposed to have a "connection", but I don't think the writing has really bore that out.  Unless Dean's... fascination, I guess?... doesn't truly manifest until Amara is in her adult form.  Which is icky, but whatever.

 

The rest I'm taking to the Bitterness thread because it's not speculation.

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SueB

SueB

  • Author

Thanks for bringing the yellow crayon speech over rue.  Sorry for random reference.

 

The Supernatural equivalent is the 'power of love" speech.  It's Dean stabbing Zachariah because Sam trusted him and was stupid enough to bring Dean to the beautiful room.  It's, as catrox said, Dean being there for Sam theoretically intending to die.

 

In this context, I think it's Dean pointing out that as messy and painful and horrible as human lives are... they are still worthwhile creations and should continue to exist. It's not about Dean connecting with Amara so much as Dean being able to talk with the "voice of truth" about the value of humanity.  

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Thanks for bringing the yellow crayon speech over rue.  Sorry for random reference.

 

 

No need to apologize.  We all drop references from time to time that others won't recognize.  Last season, I know I brought up horcruxes an unreasonable number of times.  ;-)

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Damn it! - The board ate my post and for some reason my "control C" didn't take.

 

Basically what I was going to say was that I'm one of those who has no idea what "horcruxes" are or what they refer to...

 

But I know all too well about the "Yellow Crayon Speech," and the original was much worse than the SPN versions, in my opinion, because at least in the SPN versions Dean and Sam are involved. In the original Buffy version, Buffy, the supposed main character, was nowhere near the fight - either as the one stopping the apocalypse or even as the one giving the inspirational speech. She was stuck in a plot hole - literally since she was stuck in a hole in the ground - giving a speech to her sister about life being precious and beautiful and how she couldn't wait to show her sister that... which made no sense within the context of the episode and that she didn't follow through with the next season anyway. I have "Citizen Fang" levels of hate for that Buffy episode... made a bit worse in that it was a season finale.

 

Oh and I also mentioned that in my opinion, the end of the season 10 finale also qualifies as an SPN version of a "Yellow Crayon Speech."

 

So I basically hope we don't get another one so soon, but if they did it well, I still probably wouldn't hate it.

 

Combined with Lucifer beating the shit out of Dean, Sam seeing the soldiers in the ashtray is akin to Willow remembering the yellow crayon.  It was the thing that triggered Sam to get control over Lucifer, or some think Lucifer saw them and let go of Sam long enough for Sam to get control back

 

Ooh, ooh, that would be me. We were called Team Jealous Indignation over on the Supernatural board on TWoP (I was a co-founder). There were about 5 of us, but we were dedicated. ; )

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catrox14

catrox14

 

Ooh, ooh, that would be me. We were called Team Jealous Indignation over on the Supernatural board on TWoP (I was a co-founder). There were about 5 of us, but we were dedicated. ; )

 

LOOOL. That's funny.  Maybe that's where I read it! Sorry if I didn't give you proper credit! I wasn't on the SPN boards that long before TWoP went belly up :(.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Hee. No problem. If you weren't there long, it would've been well good and buried in the threads by the time you came on. And by that time either my co-founder had moved on or been banned, and I had been banned, too (for defending Sam)... so I had returned half a year later as AwesomO instead and had only mentioned it a few times - and gained another convert or two to our theory.

 

It was actually an interesting collaboration. The other co-counder (a Dean girl) actually made the biggest contribution by positing that it made no sense for Sam to be able to overcome Lucifer at that point, so maybe Lucifer just gave up - I think due to the "power of love" or because Lucifer was affected by seeing how much Dean loved Sam, but after all of these years I don't remember exactly what it was she thought made Lucifer give up. I expanded on that to say that I thought that it was Lucifer's ego that helped do him in, because he would never get the support from Michael like Sam got from Lucifer, and on seeing all of the brotherly memories the toy soldier brought out plus the fact that Dean was still there, supporting Sam, after all of Sam's mistakes, Lucifer was so jealous and hurt and indignant that he gave up and/or his ego was wounded enough that Sam could take over... and similar to the demon in "I Believe the Children..." during Jesse's birth, he couldn't gain control back from Sam. So jealous indignation did him in... the cofounder thought that was a great explanation, and then a third member who also liked the theory gave it the official name by saying she agreed with Team Jealous Indignation. We gained another couple members or so, but most of the rest of the board thought we were nuts ; )... especially since we basically didn't agree on almost anything else except that. (I think the co-founder didn't even like Sam, but in Team JI we stuck up for each other.)

 

Needless to say, that explanation worked for me, and I enjoyed "Swan Song" more because of it - because I couldn't get past the "Sam overcomes Lucifer" thing either (the timing made no sense), so "Lucifer gave up" made more sense to me.

 

So if SPN wants to do something similar with this season, I hope they make it more obvious - and well-written - because in my opinion, it shouldn't have taken a committee to come up with an explanation for what happened onscreen that I could believe and enjoy. But sadly, the hole they've dug for themselves this time with Amara / The Smog Monster is so huge and epic, I have no idea how they are going to get out of it.

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

nothing to see here.

 

I'm sorry for any offense my snark caused. I don't want to contribute to this being an uncomfortable forum for SPN peeps. 

 

Aw hell catrox, you know we all love you! Things getting heated is half the fun of this place, and it is all just fun!

 

Yes, it's a variant on yellow-crayon but I expect much more action to transpire before she comes round to this way of possibly thinking.  IDK... we'll see.  But bottom line: I think God is going to avoid a direct power battle because of collateral damage

 

.

Stay crazy SueB! You give us all hope!

 

So much going on in this thread these past few days, I'm having a hard time keeping up! But I'm lovin' every minute of it!

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

(edited)

CHCH promo, extended promo, original promo -- none of which are playing for me.  Grrr.

 

ETA  Found the CHCH promo elsewhere and it should make AwesomO fairly happy.  Assuming they're not misdirecting us again.  I don't see how, but anyway....

 

I'm quite relieved, myself, that it appears that Sam and Dean are working together, but it won't last.  It never does.

 

Still haven't seen Castiel in a promo.  :-(

Edited by Demented Daisy
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Oh, it could be my ad blocker. I don't usually have issues watching promos on that site, so I hadn't thought of that. I'll disable it and see...I do love a good experiment.

 

I was just thinking of the description of O Brother, Where Art Thou.  I've been thinking the title would refer to Dean looking for Sam after Sam goes to free Lucifer from the cage (or whatever).  But:

 

What if the title is referring to Amara and God and she's calling Him out?

 

This is from a while back, but I think this is probably the case.

 

I've also been thinking about how the Cohen movie title was a reference to Sullivan's Travels where a Hollywood director who, usually pumps out lightweight comedies, wants to make a socially responsible film about human suffering called "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou". Knowing nothing of hardship himself, he hits the road disguised as a hobo in order to gain some experience. Now, I haven't seen the movie since I was a kid, but that's kinda been Amara's role this whole season--experiencing the human condition and all. I do somewhat wonder if my earlier assertion of Amara isn't who everyone thinks she is will be true?


ETA: Experiment successful...just in case anyone else is having the same problem, disable your ad blocker.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I've also been thinking about how the Cohen movie title was a reference to Sullivan's Travels where a Hollywood director who, usually pumps out lightweight comedies, wants to make a socially responsible film about human suffering called "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou". Knowing nothing of hardship himself, he hits the road disguised as a hobo in order to gain some experience. Now, I haven't seen the movie since I was a kid, but that's kinda been Amara's role this whole season--experiencing the human condition and all. I do somewhat wonder if my earlier assertion of Amara isn't who everyone thinks she is will be true?

 

A definite possibility, I'd say.  Someone (Carver?  Berens?  I can't remember) said we'd never be able to guess what the Darkness wants.  As long as it's not revenge against God because that's been ongoing since the pilot.  Hoping for something very, very different.

 

Bah.  Did I say hope?  Damn you, show.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

That's weird. I mean Rowena is already a human. She just happens to be a witch that's lived for 300 years. 

 

 

Despite those considerable resources — including “the Book of the Damned, the Codex [and] the code breaker”— she’s “not going about killing Winchesters,” Connell confirms, adding that new, humanizing details will soon come to light about Rowena’s backstory that will help explain “why she can’t” do that deed.

 

 

DaFuq??  

 

I swear to gods...if we find out that Rowena is related to the Winchesters or has any lineage to the Winchesters I will be fucking LIVID because that means that Crowley would be related and NO NO NO NO NO NO NO.

 

What I really hope is that somehow she belongs to an ancient cult of The Darkness/Amara worshippers and that her goal was releasing the Darkness so that Amara could rebuild humanity in HER image.  But what maybe she didn't count on was Dean still being bound to Amara and that maybe she LITERALLY cannot, as in not having the ability to kill Dean now, even with the Mark gone and she literally CANNOT kill Sam because Dean will kill her if she does. Rowena is nothing if not self-centered and interested in her own continuing survival.  

Edited by catrox14
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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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