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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
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Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I don't think it was winter when Bob first appeared, I think it was supposed to be May on the show, but they wrapped filming in April and they filmed the last couple episodes out of order...everything just hadn't greened up in Canada yet. The premiere was filmed in late-July when the flowers would've been at their peak. I think that's just coincidence, myself.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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catrox14

catrox14

I don't think it was winter when Bob first appeared, I think it was supposed to be May on the show, but they wrapped filming in April and they filmed the last couple episodes out of order...everything just hadn't greened up in Canada yet. The premiere was filmed in late-July when the flowers would've been at their peak. I think that's just coincidence, myself.

 

I'm probably nitpicking but I think hhe heavy focus on the flowers before we get to Dean's face is important. Then in Brother's Keeper when Sam shows up at the restaurant, the trees in the background don't have many leaves on them like late winter to early spring.

 

And yes I'm harping on this but upon rewatch I'm ever more bugged about Dean and Sam here. It's almost like when they were Leviathan!Chesters.  Something is just off

 

So here's some more of my wildass spec,

 

What if Michael and Lucifer somehow are switched with Dean and Sam? What if Dean and Sam are in the Cage and that's who is freaking out? That it's really Michael and Lucifer posing as Sam and Dean?  That might explain some of the squirelly performance things. 

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

Oh man catrox, I'm sick and tired if telling you how original I think you are! Even Mick, (who is about as jaded as you can get about the writing of this show) finds this brilliant! How I wish this was true. It would keep us watching for another ten years!

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Oh man catrox, I'm sick and tired if telling you how original I think you are! Even Mick, (who is about as jaded as you can get about the writing of this show) finds this brilliant! How I wish this was true. It would keep us watching for another ten years!

 

LOL original/crazy....tomato/tomahto.

 

But I was thinking more like maybe the Darkness being unleashed changes timelines in some way. (I may or may not watch Doctor Who) Maybe this is all wibbley wobbley timey wimey....stuff. One thing changes like the Darkness being unleashed has the butterfly effect of changing other things. I mean it seems like it should beyond just black veiny zombie like humans.

 

Oh Hell, my nutty specs don't end there.

 

I've even wondered if , since someone here mentioned Amara is the Greek form of Mary, that maybe is Amara is Mary and that maybe that is the bond. That somehow wherever Mary is because we don't know, she is trying to reach out to Dean through the Darkness, which could explain the 'being bound", thing.

 

Of course if the Darkness is the Big Bad, soooo...I dunno....

 

Amara did kind of give me "Mary" vibes before that last scene where they are kind of seeming to have some UST.  But that might not even be UST. 

 

I dunno I'm just wondering about an Amara/Mary connection with Dean.  Like could Dean be trying to save his own mother's life? Maybe that's the connection to Dean is all the way back to Mary.

Edited by catrox14
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I'm probably nitpicking but I think hhe heavy focus on the flowers before we get to Dean's face is important. Then in Brother's Keeper when Sam shows up at the restaurant, the trees in the background don't have many leaves on them like late winter to early spring.

 

My Brother's Keeper was shot in April--late winter/early spring. Out of the Darkness was shot in July--summer. I'm just saying, I think it's a continuity error due to the limitations of their shooting schedule and I think the flowers just made for a pretty shot and not a red herring.  But, I'm weird that way.

 

I think they were only out for a few hours and then it was probably another couple of hours before Sam found Dean. But that's probably just me. 

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SueB

SueB

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I agree that time seems weird. The flashbacks seemed weird too. And why would TPTB say wait to see the 2nd episode to make up your mind about the first episode? Something is rotten in Denmark! :-)

I really wish they had gone ahead and put "To Be Continued...." on the premier.  

 

I don't know what to make of the flowers.  I keep hearing "flowery flowers" in my head when I see them.  I think the piny/red/rose ones are some sort of statice (http://www.fiftyflowers.com/product/Statice-Filler-Flower-Tinted-Red_71.htm) but they aren't naturally that color. So... damned if I know.  Could be Singer just dicking with us.  

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

My Brother's Keeper was shot in April--late winter/early spring. Out of the Darkness was shot in July--summer. I'm just saying, I think it's a continuity error due to the limitations of their shooting schedule and I think the flowers just made for a pretty shot and not a red herring.  But, I'm weird that way.

 

I think they were only out for a few hours and then it was probably another couple of hours before Sam found Dean. But that's probably just me. 

 

 

I understood that is what you meant before. 

 

I'm saying that I'm not convinced the flowers are there because of a continuity error based on filming schedules.

 

Jerry Wanek et al seem to be fairly meticulous about set design and IMO most things are not by accident in that regard.  Rarely are there mistakes in that type of continuity meaning we don't typically have disappearing and reappearing beer bottles, things like that. And they often do things purposefully with set design, like in Lazarus Rising with framing the window Dean is putting salt in with "wings" and the  "postively no smoking" sign as a hint that angels were on their way(which I totally did not get until later).

 

They kept the same wardrobe and the car was still stuck in the same plothole that apparently also has Sam's s10 hair (that is my nitpick. It's driving me crazy!)

 

About the trees and flowers

 

I noticed that during the walk and talk scene with Dean and Sam going back to the car after Sam finds Dean amongst the flowers the trees off in the distance on the horizon are leafless as they were in Brother's Keeper.  Did they film that walk and talk in April? Or in July?   Are those just dead trees that are leafless in Spring and mid summer in that same location?  If not, I would think they would be leafed out in July. I'm thinking someone made sure to match that scene continuity to reflect the same time of year as Brother's Keeper. I would think they would have edited out the flowers or not have focused on them so much if it were a continuity error.

 

Just my thinky thoughts

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

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They kept the same wardrobe and the car was still stuck in the same plothole that apparently also has Sam's s10 hair (that is my nitpick. It's driving me crazy!)

emphasis added

 

Freudian slip?

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

emphasis added

 

Freudian slip?

LOL nope. Intentional pun/snark

Sure. The only time in the history of the show that Dean can't get Baby out of pothole? Naw, son. That's a plothole.

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

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Well played.

 

You know, reading the description for tonight's episode.  I wonder if there's a moment where Dean races back to save the baby - even though Sam is infected.  That would be so un-Dean-like as to make it clear, Amara's not playing around here.  She's got Dean's number. 

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

I wonder if there's a moment where Dean races back to save the baby - even though Sam is infected.

 

I doubt Dean will ever know that Sam has been infected. He will probably come in at the tail end of the episode when Sam suddenly found a cure. Likely through the help of his new vision guide, be it God or an archangel. But I`m calling it right now: Sam will not tell Dean. Not even after the fact. 

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SueB

SueB

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Wow... I feel prescient.  I swear I hadn't seen the video.  OTOH, I think I'm wrong about choosing between Sam and baby.  Dean answering "Ghostbusters" is not a Dean who thinks Sam is dying.  So... still no clue I guess.  

 

I do think Sam will eventually tell Dean.  And I hope he finds a cure for him AND the town.  Sam needs a win.  

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

 

Wow... I feel prescient.  I swear I hadn't seen the video.  OTOH, I think I'm wrong about choosing between Sam and baby.  Dean answering "Ghostbusters" is not a Dean who thinks Sam is dying.  So... still no clue I guess.

 

I think it's Jenna calling him to come back and he's being clever (or being clever in whatever 'stereotype!s1!Dean would answer) because it's not Sam's number calling him. I still hate that "Ghostbusters" line. It might be a bigger pet peeve of mine than Sam's hair status right now. 

 

If Sam doesn't tell him about being infected then I will finally call Sam a true hypocrite after just lecturing Dean about doing things differently.

Edited by catrox14
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

He will obviously be cured himself and I do think he will also cure the people. I`m not looking forward to Dean then probably having to tell him how wonderful and right he was to make that speech about saving people. And if it had been left to callous, just-a-killer-Dean, they would all be dead but since enlighted, moral hero Sam made the call, he saved them all. Yada yada. Urgh. Hated the speech in the Premiere, saw the set-up a mile away.

 

I think Jared let it slip in a previous M&G at a convention that Sam does not tell, not before and not after. 

 

From the way Dabb described that episode at Comic Con, it`s only a question for me on how bad it will be. At best the scenes with Dean and Crowley and the baby-soon-to-be-Darkness will be good. Anything else,sounds like everything I abhor. Cubed.  

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SueB

SueB

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He will obviously be cured himself and I do think he will also cure the people. I`m not looking forward to Dean then probably having to tell him how wonderful and right he was to make that speech about saving people. And if it had been left to callous, just-a-killer-Dean, they would all be dead but since enlighted, moral hero Sam made the call, he saved them all. Yada yada. Urgh. Hated the speech in the Premiere, saw the set-up a mile away.

 

I think Jared let it slip in a previous M&G at a convention that Sam does not tell, not before and not after. 

 

 

Aren't those two statements in opposition? If he doesn't tell Dean, Dean can't praise him.  Not crabbing... just confused.

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

Aren't those two statements in opposition? If he doesn't tell Dean, Dean can't praise him.

 

Not telling Dean about his own infection doesn`t mean Dean can`t be made to praise Sam him for curing the entire townsfolk. Dean knows those people were infected. If they are suddenly not and Sam is all "woohoo, found a cure", Dean can start his grovelling. 

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SueB

SueB

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(edited)

Not telling Dean about his own infection doesn`t mean Dean can`t be made to praise Sam him for curing the entire townsfolk. Dean knows those people were infected. If they are suddenly not and Sam is all "woohoo, found a cure", Dean can start his grovelling. 

Ah, I see. Well.... it'll make me happy (because I don't see it as grovelling).  *Hi! I'm SueB, and I'm bi-bro.*

Edited by SueB
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

The entire speech scene already played out like "listen to Sam, he is SOOOO much better than Dean". That sucks enough as a fucking meta statement. Don`t need Dean verbalizing it as well "oh yes, I`m just a piece of dirt compared to you, Sam. Good for you to tell me how saving people works. I`m so uncaring and unheroic, I would have never figured it out on my own." Yuck.. 

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

I don't know what it is, but things just never land for me with Sam's "speechifying". 

 

Like I know I'm supposed to think Sam is recalcitrant and begging Dean to see that they BOTH have made mistakes yet I end up coming away with it seeming like Sam is lecturing Dean more than anything. Maybe it's just in the performance. I can't figure it out.

 

Maybe that's because the speeches always seem to come before Dean is going to make a big move to go after a baddie or save ONE life or after Dean has already made that choice. So it seems more like criticizing Dean rather than Sam's saying "Hey man, we are both total idiots here like right out of the gate".

 

  Like if Sam had said first to Dean - "We both have let other people die because we chose each other. And I don't think we should do that anymore. I think we've lost our way."  Versus, "When did we forget how to do this" which is only said AFTER they are arguing about what to do.

 

Even aside from how I felt about that scene played dramatically, I didn't understand why Sam was making this distinction here that saving people HAS to mean saving ALL the people. Is not saving the baby part of ALL the people?

 

Dean carried the guilt of thinking he had to save all 6 billion humans back in Sam Interrupted and that was considered an insane idea. So to a degree, Sam thinking they are some how bad guys for not trying to SAVE ALL PEOPLE...is odd. To me.


ETA : I think Misha's bit is related to a thing Random Acts is doing today where they are giving away a t-shirt or something to someone who posts something about being on a pony or a horse or something like that.

 

GISHdrone was tweeting about the contest yesterday.

Edited by catrox14
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Even aside from how I felt about that scene played dramatically, I didn't understand why Sam was making this distinction here that saving people HAS to mean saving ALL the people. Is not saving the baby part of ALL the people?

 

Yes, which is why I think Sam wanted Dean to go ahead with the baby-saving while he stayed behind... in other words, Sam wasn't saying "no" to saving the baby, just to only saving the baby by him also going with Dean, or at least that's what my interpretation was from seeing it the one time.

 

Dean carried the guilt of thinking he had to save all 6 billion humans back in Sam Interrupted and that was considered an insane idea. So to a degree, Sam thinking they are some how bad guys for not trying to SAVE ALL PEOPLE...is odd. To me.

 

I never got the feeling from "Sam, Interrupted" that Dean's "save everybody" was considered insane. Idealistic: maybe. Noble: definitely. Also part of Dean's self-esteem stuff and thinking everything is his fault/responsibility. In my opinion, it wasn't set up in the episode as Dean being insane to think that way. The weird thing in the season premier episode here is that Sam's conviction came on the heels of that bizarre Sam hiding behind the desk scenario. I'm still not sure what Carver is saying about Sam's character, and so far I haven't liked much of what he has had to say about him. Sam's "and I'd do it again" seems to be trying to undermine the likeability Sam was gaining from me in season 10. Sam is the one who is sounding insane here - or maybe desperate is a better word. He so wants to fix things, have a mark-free Dean and fix the mess that that caused, that he seems to be grasping at straws while being half freaked out and entirely desperate for it all just to work out. I'm worried that he's being set up for yet another fall of some kind, and I'm just so tired of it.

 

As for the idea of "saving everybody," the show plays with this idea often, sometimes flip-flopping on which view is "better." I'm not even sure that Sam's "side" of this here is even going to turn out to be the right one... usually he's "wrong" no matter which side of the argument he's on. Examples: "Croatoan" - Sam hesitates, not wanting to kill the kid, while Dean wants to kill him. The kid gets away, probably infecting others. Dean also wants to kill the guy they have tied up in the hospital while Sam isn't sure and wants to wait. Sure it turns out he's not infected, but he is a demon... so ultimately, in show, Sam is wrong again. They should've "shot first, asked questions later" in both cases rather than try to save everybody. Then we have "Jus In Bello" - Sam wants to potentially sacrifice the one to save the many. Dean says nope, they are going to save everybody. And Dean is correct - save everybody was the right choice for the moment, because his plan works and everyone is saved. They do end up getting killed later, though, so I'm not clear on what the long-term message was supposed to be, but from the tone up until then, Dean's "save everybody" message was the right one.

 

The whole thing/tone is so weird for me. And the reason that I am leaning on the side of Sam potentially being wrong here again (which bugs, but I'm used to it) is because of how Sam was shown up to that point. Am I supposed to agree with the guy who hid behind a desk rather than help the baby? I'm not getting that vibe - I'm thinking Sam is being set up again somehow. Maybe they both are being set up to be wrong, and there is no answer. As I said, this show has never been clear on the "save everybody" message in my opinion.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

I don't get it. Please explain to the slow kid in the class? What does spit have to do with anything?

 

Misha tried to spit in his little vine thing and it was messy. GISHdrone made a dirty joke about it. Spitting vs swallowing

Edited by catrox14
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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

Doh. Okay. *slinks away to the slow table*

 

Aww.. don't Sue! The fact you didn't get it right away fits my image of you perfectly! And I mean that in the BEST possible way! You're my go-to person when I'm feeling down on this show!

 

Speaking of which, get over to the episode thread. I'm the only one so far who liked this episode.

 

Awesom0400 did crack  an awesome (sorry!) joke though.....

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

(edited)

After watching the promo for next week, I have to ask:

 

Is Amara just all the Horsemen rolled up in one?  Soul Eater (Famine), Disease Bringer (Pestilence), Killer (Death), and....  Well, I'm still working on War, but it's early.  I wouldn't be surprised if she turns people/angels/demons/whatever against each other.

 

Or, you know, Dean against everyone.  

 

Edited to fix word that made no sense.

Edited by Demented Daisy
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Wynterwolf

Wynterwolf

(edited)

Or, you know, Dean against everyone.  

 

Yep, I think this is essentially a fight for Dean.  Sort of the MoC scenario on steroids.  Also, paralleling Sam and Lucifer.  

Edited by Wynterwolf
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

So based on @smree's noting that Dean was acting like the French Mistake Dean and that it took him/her out of the episode

 

...and given everything that has seemed way off to me about Sam and Dean throughout these first two episodes I'm putting it out there that this is the French Mistake's Jared and Jensen swapped out for the real Sam and Dean or synced into a combined Jared/Sam and Jensen/Dean.

 

My SWAG (SCIENTIFIC WILD ASS GUESS)today is that Jared and Jensen were filming an episode about this zompire plague thing. Then when Sam unleashed the Darkness and Dean killed Death it messed with both universes.  Maybe it didn't exchange them one for one but maybe synced them together in some way. 

 

Maybe Dean is looking at himself as Amara that's why she says she's bound to him and that she will always help him. Because it's Jensen trying to help Dean in some way. Like maybe in the FM universe, Dean has the Mark on his chest like Amara does.

 

Although why he isn't presenting himself as himself I can't explain. Nor does that account for the UST moment some think happened at the end of that scene.

 

Or maybe Amara is Jensen's wife from the French Mistake universe trying to save him which might explain the UST moment that some have seen. (I'm not fond of this myself)

 

Maybe there is no Death in the French Mistake universe as there was no magic or angels or demons. So Amara saying "I don't know this Death and he doesn't know me could be true.

 

Maybe Sam and Dean realize this is what happened and they have to find their way back their universe to when before they unleashed the Darkness and get a do over.

 

 Ah, this is so my new head!canon.  PLEASE let this be true.  

 

My brain hurts.

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

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I've let go of any AU theories personally.  The main driver for me was how to keep up the zombie apocalypse.  It was either an AU/dream/other or a localized phenomenon.  Since they went localized phenomenon, I'm thinking this is IT.  This really happened and the 2000 dead bodies (current-ish population of Superior NE) are explained away but a freak twister that had toxic chemicals from 'moonlight reflected off Venus' or some other government horseshit that explains the apparent plague.  

 

Hey, it's Big Farming out there ... you would not BELIEVE the chemicals that are involved.  

 

Plus it's not like the survivors are going to say they were saved by this freakishly tall dude who cleansed them in a ring of Holy Oil fire.  Padded-cell avoidance and all.  Much better to stick with the "localized twister, toxic chemical, they were inside and hid" answer.  

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catrox14

catrox14

 

I've let go of any AU theories personally.  The main driver for me was how to keep up the zombie apocalypse.  It was either an AU/dream/other or a localized phenomenon.  Since they went localized phenomenon, I'm thinking this is IT.  This really happened and the 2000 dead bodies (current-ish population of Superior NE) are explained away but a freak twister that had toxic chemicals from 'moonlight reflected off Venus' or some other government horseshit that explains the apparent plague.

 

I'm sticking with it being altered states of some kind. Not an actual AU here.

 

I think the zombie thing happened in Sam and Dean's reality. It will get played as being a localized event in a small town. I'm just becoming increasingly convinced this not our 100% regular-ish Sam and Dean. If it is OUR regular-ish Sam and Dean they are not the same. Something changed them. Maybe just the Darkness being released could have altered this stuff.

 

Because if this supposed to be our 'regular Sam and Dean' then Jared and Jensen have lost the thread of how to play these guys and I find that really hard to believe is the case after 10 seasons.  Nor do I get the sense that they have decided to just phone it in here either. They've never done that and I don't think they would now. 

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catrox14

catrox14

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with their performances.  I'm saying that there is something peculiar in their performances of Sam and Dean that they are pinging off to me.  I'm attributing it to purposeful choices that I think will be explained eventually.

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Omegamom

Omegamom

So it wasn't just me. A few people on tumblr thought that some of the voices talking to Sam when he's about to try burning the Bobveins with holy oil sounded like Pellegrino. The others sounded like his own voice. To me, at least.

So how would an actor with just a few lines of voice work be credited in an episode?

There's also a hint o' Pellegrino in the leaked pic of what we think might be the cage; one of the guys to the left of the pic, back to camera, looks kinda like him.

Of course, there's a lot of people who would love to see him (Lucifer in his Nick suit) back, so it could just be confirmation bias.

Morrigan2575--Misha tweeted a link to a short promo for SPN, dressed as a Western outlaw. GISHDrone responded with a joke about not taking him for a guy who swallowed. The joke has to do with spit vs. swallow; SueB didn't get it, thus the "slow table".

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catrox14

catrox14

 

So it wasn't just me. A few people on tumblr thought that some of the voices talking to Sam when he's about to try burning the Bobveins with holy oil sounded like Pellegrino. The others sounded like his own voice. To me, at least.

 

I only picked up on this upon rewatch. I thought I heard Sam's voice for sure. I'll have to watch again to see if I hear Pellegrino

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