Spoilers With Speculation

[Demented Daisy]

To me, that would be a cheat.  Nothing hinted that Death's information wasn't correct.  Especially because what he said would happen happened.

 

I suspect that, as usual with this group, they came up with an idea and ran with it before they even considered a way to get themselves out of it.  It's why Demon Dean only lasted 3 episodes (not that I complained) and why they can't write themselves out of a corner without cheating now.

 

As I've said more times than I care to count, prove me wrong, show.  Prove to me that you haven't retconned the S10 finale.  Prove to me you're better than this.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[SueB]

But it was a GOOD pun! It hit the mark. *I'll show myself out.*

In response to the topic, I wasn't think that the Mark was moved as in 'with intention'. I meant that when the Mark was removed and the lock opened, the Darkneas escaped. BUT, you can open a lock & key, without destroying the lock or key. So, if I imagine the Mark tumbling off into the distance, I'm suggesting at some point (after the Darkness was freed)!it came to rest on someone or something.

To further my point, it wasn't a seal. Like in Lucifer and the 666 seals (where breaking 66 was enough). When you break a seal, it's destroyed. That's how they are intended. But a lock and key can be reused (and apparently transferred and shared?)

This is still under speculation, but since the season finale made a point of Dean refusing to put that burden on someone else, I think it's at least a consideration.

Edited September 8, 2015 by SueB

[Demented Daisy]

To further my point, it wasn't a seal. Like in Lucifer and the 666 seals (where breaking 66 was enough). When you break a seal, it's destroyed. That's how they are intended. But a lock and key can be reused (and apparently transferred and shared?)

This is still under speculation, but since the season finale made a point of Dean refusing to put that burden on someone else, I think it's at least a consideration.

 

 

Death specifically said the lock would be broken if it was not transferred to someone else before he removed it from Dean.  

 

Cain said he could only transfer the Mark to someone worthy.  So now they're saying that the Mark can just float around until it finds someone worthy to attach to?  TPTB never hinted that such a thing was possible.

 

I guess I was right all along -- the Mark is a Horcrux.  Especially if it can just randomly attach to a person without intention.  

[DittyDotDot]

Perhaps it's now just an open lock and a key that no longer has any power. What I mean is, when the Mark was on Dean and/or Cain, it was locked and had power. The spell Rowena cast turned the key and opened the lock and took away it's power. So, maybe now, the Mark is just a open padlock (sigil) that's useless without the key (magic)?

 

Not saying I like the idea--I prefer the idea of cultists, myself--but it does make a certain amount of Supernatural-sense...I think...perhaps...maybe? Being as things that make sense on Supernatural are rather nonsensical?

[Wynterwolf]

I really like the cultist idea too.  But it's really wide open at this point, I think.  I was also wondering if it could be a sign of who had been taken over/infected (kind of like the mark of the wolf for a werewolf).  

[Omegamom]

I have a real WAG, based on things said by Dabb and on other pics, which show her swathed in a luxurious fur coat...but it is *so* wild ass that I'm not gonna spill.

That said: I really, REALLY want *her* to be the embodiment of The Darkness. I am so tired of the "looks like a seductress, therefore is evil" and "looks waif like, therefore is innocent" tropes. Just once, I'd like the villainess to look pure and dainty and like she couldn't hurt a fly. Then WHAMMO!!! She's doing evil horrible things, all the while looking totally appealing.

Sort of like Lilith, when she first appeared.

Hmmm.

Now I'm buying into that theory even more...

Just FYI, it's a theory someone came up with on Reddit, not my own. I thought it was out of left field, but now...hmm.

[Wynterwolf]

Just FYI, it's a theory someone came up with on Reddit, not my own. I thought it was out of left field, but now...hmm.

 

Ha!  Now you have to share, the wilder the better in my book!  It's still a long way to October... 

[Demented Daisy]

 

Jensen's been teasing "where did the Mark go?"  I thought he was just yanking our chain (still could be) BUT if EP6 is where the second shoe drops, then perhaps the Mark of Cain has been put on some innocent and it's not turning her into a murder-your-face-off person because she's not actually holding back the Darkness (it's roaming the countryside).

 

I could see finding out that the lock and key exists, but on an innocent, would provide a lovely conundrum for our heroes.  As if they COULD potentially put the darkness back but it would condemn this woman.  Which Dean explicitly said he would NEVER do. 

 

Okay, can you clarify this?  If she has the Mark but is not currently holding back the Darkness....  If Sam and Dean contemplate sacrificing her to lock up the Darkness again, when they wouldn't sacrifice themselves....  Maybe it's just me, but that sounds incredibly cowardly.

 

I'm hoping I misunderstood.  Because that opens up a whole load of questions that are repulsive, IMO.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Demented Daisy

[DittyDotDot]

I have a real WAG, based on things said by Dabb and on other pics, which show her swathed in a luxurious fur coat...but it is *so* wild ass that I'm not gonna spill.

[...]

Now I'm buying into that theory even more...

Just FYI, it's a theory someone came up with on Reddit, not my own. I thought it was out of left field, but now...hmm.

 

Pfft...you can't just leave us hanging like that, Omegamon. 

[Omegamom]

Winter wolf, I meant the Lilith theory. Turns out it was on tumblr, nor Reddit. There's also a theory that she's Lucifer's new vessel.

I do enjoy the wild speculating that's going around. Maybe that's why they've kept so quiet, so that fandom will go nutso coming up with guesses. Keeps the excitement up.

My WAG I think I'll keep to myself, cuz it's so close to something I wrote that it seems self-serving. ;-)

[SueB]

Okay, can you clarify this? If she has the Mark but is not currently holding back the Darkness.... If Sam and Dean contemplate sacrificing her to lock up the Darkness again, when they wouldn't sacrifice themselves.... Maybe it's just me, but that sounds incredibly cowardly.

I'm hoping I misunderstood. Because that opens up a whole load of questions that are repulsive, IMO.

It's a totally repulsive idea. I don't think the boys would do it. But other entities (remember Heaven, Hell, et al) are all against The Darkness so it's something Sam and Dean might have to prevent (sacrificing this girl).

But we haven't heard about ANOTHER non-Amara long term guest. Which make cultist or one-off more likely. She isn't a name actress I recognize either. So, that puts a damper on her being a special/unique/season long character.

Edited September 8, 2015 by SueB

[Aeryn13]

Oh gee, I didn`t think we would see the Mark again. And unless it was brought back as storyline potential for Dean, I didn`t WANT to see it back. I get that it is likely no longer special but these writers have a tendency to ruin things by retcon. Without clear plans and just throwing things at the wall, I`shudder to think at what random crap now gets added to the story. 

 

The very few mytharcs Dean has ever gotten in the show and the writers have done their damnedest to belittle them in the aftermath. Sam`s hell was so much worse, Adam was a totally fine vessel after all, Purgatory was a breeze in the park when Sam hop-skipped through it and now the Mark of Cain flew onto a random chick for probably lol-canon reasons.

 

I bet if some writers wanted to retroactively besmirch Charlie`s memory and have it turn out that she didn`t single-handedly win the war in Oz, Thompson would go to war over it. 

 

The only writer I would remotely trust right now is Berens and even he couldn`t do much if Carver or likely Singer came up with another cockamamie plot twist. If this episode only exists to tie up the "loose end" of the Mark, it wasn`t necessary IMO. I had no reason to believe the spell destroyed the Mark or send it to the ether or something. 

Edited September 8, 2015 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

It seems to me there is no way the Mark can just land willy nilly on any ole human.

IIRC, in First Born,

1 )The Mark bearer had to be worthy of the Mark meaning a killer, not a "good and innocent' human being 

2) the bearer had to give consent to take the Mark which Dean did.  

3) A human can't bear the power of the Mark unless they kill for it.

4) If they die with the Mark they are resurrected as a demon.

 

So to me if they could just put the Mark on any one without their consent it wouldn't matter who had it. If they could just attach it to anyone wouldn't Lucifer and Cain just done so to build an army of insane murderous immortal humans or make every soul into a demon by using the Mark?

 

And even if Dean was willing to accept the deal from Death the bearer would have to consent.  The only one who didn't consent was Lucifer because it was a curse from God. But if an angel is passing something to a human I would think the consent still matters. 

 

As a human this girl should not be strong enough to bear the Mark without being a murderer like Dean and dying and turning into a demon. So this girl with the Mark could be another of Lucifer's demons who was already set up to take the Mark.

 

But my worst nightmare thought I had is that this is Dean's half demon-half human spawn of him and Ann-Marie or some other liaison which is why she is has the Mark where she does as a birthmark kind of thing. It could make her partly able to handle the Mark and possibly why it COULD have found it's way to her because it was of Dean's lineage.

 

So if that's true, then Dean will be faced once more with killing his spawn. And it would explain Jensen's comment about Dean possibly having a connection to the Darkness.

 

I will be so mad if that's what it is.

 

But it also seems like it's the only thing I can think of that makes it work because otherwise it's a complete retcon of the MoC lore they set out with Dean for two fucking seasons.  But you know it's not like they haven't undermined his arcs before like with Adam and Purgatory and the too soon demise of Demon!Dean. 

[AwesomO4000]

It could also be potentially interesting and be tying up loose threads if maybe that was some relative or member of the Frankensteins? She maybe saw Dean kill her family and got the tattoo as a reminder of who she was looking for - not knowing that Dean no longer has the mark...

 

But seeing catrox14's speculation, a birthmark and "daughter of demon Dean" kind of makes sense. Not saying that I like it, but it does make sense. Not sure how she would get the soap opera "instant teen/early 20s" treatment, but...

[Aeryn13]

I don`t think they consider the lore of the Mark anymore. It was taken off Dean`s arm by a spell and no longer holds back the darkness. Therefore, any and all rules fly out the window.

 

Why would it make the wearer angry and homicidal anymore? My understanding was that that was because it held back the Darkness. Because somehow the Darkness whispered through the lock and wanted to be free. Or at least have some fun by proxy. It doesn`t  do that anymore. For all it matters, it can be a fancy tattoo now.

 

Maybe it could be magically reimbursed but at the moment, it`s dormant. I mean, it`s not as if the Darkness was sucked back in to its prison again so this chick wearing it does nothing atm.

 

I will be so mad if they undermine Dean yet again by having some random guest star handle the Mark as it was for him but totally fine. Hey, Lucifer went crazy, Cain went crazy, Dean could barely hold it together but random guest chick is so pure and Sue-tastic, she can take it? Fuck off, writers. 

[catrox14]

 

But seeing catrox14's speculation, a birthmark and "daughter of demon Dean" kind of makes sense. Not saying that I like it, but it does make sense. Not sure how she would get the soap opera "instant teen/early 20s" treatment, but...

 

Since it's part demon they could just do the Alternate Dimension thing or that a demon spawn ages faster or something. ..SPOILERS FOR THE ANGEL TV SHOW -

like they did with Connor being in Quartoth. 

Maybe when the Darkness set it in, it mucked with timelines...which could explain Jensen's comments about time in the show.

 

 

I like the idea that it's a Styne with tattoo to remind them of Dean. I'm hanging onto that one for dear life.  Of course, you know, now that Dean has no more power to fight a Styne like he did before...that'll just be great.

[Omegamom]

If God is still around, maybe he can change the MoC so it's no longer murderous...so all that's needed is to stuff The Darkness back into wherever it was being held. Another Cage?

I like the memory tattoo thing.

And my WAG is probably out, cuz what I thought was a luxurious fur coat is actually just a down coat that she was probably wearing to keep warm between shots. There I am, getting old and misremembering things. Sigh.

[DittyDotDot]

I thought it wasn't the MoC that was murderous, but the Darkness was corrupting it's bearer through the MoC. Like a prisoner whispering to it's guard from his cell. It's not the bars that are corrupting the guard, but the prisoner.

[catrox14]

The MoC was the conduit for the murderousness.  They were tied together... but the point is that for a human to have the Mark it turned them murderer. Nothing has said that wouldn't happen again if one had the Mark. But then if one has the Mark then the Darkness shouldn't even be out there as DD and others have noted. 

 

ugh.This whole thing is so stupid. I'm sorry. I am not trying to be negative, I swear. But when I think about it...it's doesn't make much sense.

[SueB]

Death specifically said the lock would be broken if it was not transferred to someone else before he removed it from Dean.  

 

Cain said he could only transfer the Mark to someone worthy.  So now they're saying that the Mark can just float around until it finds someone worthy to attach to?  TPTB never hinted that such a thing was possible.

 

I guess I was right all along -- the Mark is a Horcrux.  Especially if it can just randomly attach to a person without intention.  

You are correct.  I went back and rewatched.  He used the words "unbroken" (as in 'don't break it') for the lock and "destroyed" for the Mark.  So, both suggest that if these were destroyed/broken THEN the Darkness would come.  Since the Darkness arrived, it would suggest the Mark and Lock were in fact destroyed/broken.

 

Looking at the translation of Rowena's spell, it simply says to take the curse from the man (loosely). 

 

Yet we've got the waif with the Mark.  I would think The Darkness would HATE that Mark (being the barrier to it's freedom for...forever) so I struggle with it being a voluntary "pro-Darkness" cult sign. 

 

And the placement is over the heart, not the arm.  I also have to agree with Aeryn (hey, write the date and time down!) that once The Darkness escaped, we have a whole new set of rules it could be playing by.

 

IDK... I just suspect two things:

1) something Supernatural put it there

2) it's connected to what happened or what needs to happen

 

I know... I'm really stepping out on a limb here  (not).

[Demented Daisy]

http://tvline.com/gallery/fall-tv-2015-season-premiere-spoilers/#!41/fall-preview-supernatural/

 

The Winchesters will need all the help they can get battling The Darkness, which brings us to Season 11's theme: "You can't outrun your past." Dean and Sam "have to make some unexpected and unholy alliances involving folks from their past, which will have personal ramifications," exec producer Jeremy Carver reveals. Will any of said people be fan faves who died? "We're talking about a fight that is going to incorporate the likes of Heaven and Hell and those on Earth. So there's certainly opportunity to see folks that have departed," the EP replies. Perhaps one of them can provide some answers, because "there's a lot of mystery to not only what or who The Darkness is" – maybe it's a she? – "but what The Darkness wants," Carver says. And while Castiel will be working alongside the brothers, he first needs to "find a way out of this spell that Rowena has cast.

BONUS SPOILER!: Praise be! "We're going to see more of a vintage Crowley in terms of scheming, less caring about Dean and Sam," Carver shares.
 

[Wynterwolf]

I would think The Darkness would HATE that Mark (being the barrier to it's freedom for...forever) so I struggle with it being a voluntary "pro-Darkness" cult sign. 

 

I wonder though, if it could have been a 'pro-Darkness' symbol (like a name), something that could stand as a representation of The Darkness in symbol form, that was used to bind it.  So the symbol could be part of The Darkness' identity that was used to create the physical binding.  So rather than being something The Darkness would hate, it could be something it's now able to reclaim?  We need another clue!!  

Edited September 8, 2015 by Wynterwolf

[catrox14]

So from DD's post re TVLine article.

 

 

 

And while Castiel will be working alongside the brothers, he first needs to "find a way out of this spell that Rowena

has cast.

 

 

So Cas is separated from the Boys again until he fixes his problem which will probably last like 10 episodes other than phone calls.  Sigh.

[SueB]

So from DD's post re TVLine article.

 

 

 

 

So Cas is separated from the Boys again until he fixes his problem which will probably last like 10 episodes other than phone calls.  Sigh.

I'm like 99.99% positive that Cas is un-spelled in EP3.  He's then MIA for EP4 & 5 and back in EP6. 

1) Rowena is captured in EP3, Cas has the bloodied eyes in EP3, Cas has un-bloodied eyes in EP3

2) Cas in EP 6 has un-bloodied eyes

3) Misha was not in EP4 and indicated he wasn't in EP5 at MinnCon... and we have BTS for EP6

Edited September 9, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

Ah well he's unspelled but still not with the boys most likely. Sorry that doesn't really help me because I am sick of him being away from them especially Dean for no good reason.  No, not for Destiel but for their friendship.  It's annoying.

[SueB]

ITA.  I miss those two.  Frankly, I could watch all four of the leads sit around and drink beer and snark and talk in the bunker for days. (I know, Aeryn worst nightmare).  I just love the dynamics.  But I definitely miss Cas and Dean's relationship. 

[Aeryn13]

 

Frankly, I could watch all four of the leads sit around and drink beer and snark and talk in the bunker for days. (I know, Aeryn worst nightmare).

 

Heh. It`s actually not. I mean, I would find this incredibly boring but at least it wouldn`t be offensive. Because then noone would have an actual storyline. Not just Dean that is nearly always excluded and reduced to being bystander/chauffeur/nurse.

 

I do want big mytharc but if the character I care about doesn`t get one, it is much easier to stomach if no other does either. My nightmare is stuff like Suck Song, the second half of Season 8, the first half of Season 9 and so far every single spoiler for Season 11.

[Demented Daisy]

"Between darkness and deliverance​", huh?

 

I wonder who might render that deliverance....  I must admit, I'll be shocked if God doesn't show up this season.

[catrox14]

And here is the promo

 

http://www.eonline.com/news/694109/warning-supernatural-s-season-11-promo-is-here-and-it-s-super-bloody-and-has-an-epic-ghostbusters-reference

[rue721]

"This is my fault."

 

OH SAM. Stop it. This is why people think you're arrogant, dude. :P

[Aeryn13]

I don`t see a vid on the site, just an article? 

[catrox14]

 

"This is my fault."

 

OH SAM. Stop it. This is why people think you're arrogant, dude. :P

 

 

Honest to Gods.

 

So let's see, when everyone fucking told Sam to stop, he didn't. So he's learned his lesson and now he's seeking God it seems.

 

And could the imagery of the blood dripping down Sam's face be anymore like Jesus.  I mean if we didn't think there was already a long standing Jesus allegory to Sam as it is.

 

 

Cas is having his brain tortured. Either for information or because that's how he's going to be freed from Rowena's spell

 

Dean answering Ghostbusters could be a joke or if it's not a joke, then IMO we have an alternate universe/timeline thing going.

 

I don`t see a vid on the site, just an article? 

 

If you have any adblockers the vid won't show.  I soon as I see it on youtube I'll repost

Edited September 9, 2015 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

It`s okay, saw it over on spoilertv. 

 

Looks quite Sam-centric, then Cas, then Crowley. Dean is basically only there to run through a few shots and give the comic relief line at the end. Yup, totally in line with promo material so far. 

 

As for the Jesus-allegory for Sam? Yeah, barf. Because it`s crap like that that puts me off completely.  

 

In terms of it being his fault, well, he could have made a miniscule effort to call off the spell once Death spilled the beans. So this time, it`s fucking actually true. Dean`s fault lies in whatever fallout there is from no Death. Since it could be a potential storyline for him, I do expect it to be largely dropped.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Aeryn13

[Omegamom]

E! said it was pretty bloody, and, yup, it is.

To be fair, it *is* Sam's fault. Haven't we spent the last few months grumbling that he could have just MADE A PHONE CALL to stop the spell?!?

"Awful name, The Darkness..." Har! Does he talk about the band next? ;-)

[Demented Daisy]

Hmm.  Looks like Castiel is strangling Meg.  I'm sure it's not, but I'd love to see her again.  Cas is probably hallucinating or something.  Had a Hellraiser vibe to it, which I'm fairly meh about.  Saw a couple of flashes of Rowena, so that tells me she has very little to do with the story this year.  Shocker.

 

Not excited, not repulsed, so I guess I'll call that... a win?

 

Omegamom, as far as I'm concerned, it all of their faults, not just Sam.  

[catrox14]

E! said it was pretty bloody, and, yup, it is.

To be fair, it *is* Sam's fault. Haven't we spent the last few months grumbling that he could have just MADE A PHONE CALL to stop the spell?!?

"Awful name, The Darkness..." Har! Does he talk about the band next? ;-)

 

 

Yes it is Sam's fault, but what's bugging me is the "This is all my fault". I thought we were not going to be having that everyone feels guilty thing. Just that it would be..".well crap we fucked this up. Let's fix it." 

 

It's just like all the other times Sam has done exactly what everyone told him not to do and it goes into a redemption mode. But here the symbolism is a bit much with him in essentially in a Jesus like pose with blood dripping down his face.

[catrox14]

 

Omegamom, as far as I'm concerned, it all of their faults, not just Sam.

 

 

I have to say, I'm not seeing where Dean's at fault at here. He broke the First Seal in Hell when he finally gave into torture and tortured himself even though I don't blame him for finally breaking there as a direct affect on Lucifer being released. The First Seal had to go before the last seal was broken. 

 

But here I'm not seeing at all how this is Dean's fault in anyway. Nothing Dean did had anything to do with the Darkness being released, no matter how Carver wants to spin it. The Mark being removed was separate from Dean killing Death. Death wasn't even going to send Dean to oblivion unless he killed Sam first.  It seems to me that even if Dean had killed Sam, the spell would have found Dean no matter where he was and removed the Mark anyway. So Death sending Dean into outer space wouldn't have changed anything that I can see.

 

Sam does own this one, but I just don't want to see him wallowing again.

[Demented Daisy]

Dean's the one who took the Mark, ignoring Cain's warnings.  That makes him just as much at fault as anyone else in my book.

[Aeryn13]

For me, there are levels of responsibility here. 

 

What Dean did was reckless and it ultimately led to the spell but it was not clear cause and effect. Lots of steps needed to happen in between. Cas participated in the spell against his better judgment but at least he didn`t know about the Darkness. Which goes for Crowley too. Rowena performed the spell and I don`t know if she knew what would happen. If she did that gives her responsibility on the same level of Sam.

 

Now Sam was on the same level as Cas and Crowley before he knew the risks. It`s like someone told him in time that Lilith was the final seal and he went through with killing her anyway. Therefore, I rate his responsibility level higher. 

 

So apparently Sam gets infected with Darkness zombie-ism, if you go by the black veins. And I presume the torture takes place in his mind? I found the callback with the hooks to be too reminiscent of Dean on meathooks via ending Season 3. 

 

Cas may also be tortured in his mind. 

 

I guess the "We`ll see Crowley as we`ve never seen him before" didn`t refer to being Death but the priest outfit? Wow, what a hyperbolic tease.

 

Dean, well, there is really nothing you can say about him. He has little screentime in the trailer and nothing whatsoever is teased for him. It`s completely disheartening.

 

If at least they established that he doesn`t get infected because due to having held the Darkness inside via MOC previously, he is immune to that? Would have been a tiny cool thing for one episode. 

[catrox14]

This is the problem with the introduction of the Darkness out of their ass. There was no set up for it.

 

The Darkness wasn't even a thing when Dean took on the Mark. It was only about making him powerful enough to kill a Knight of Hell. Sam didn't know about the Darkness either.

 

My beef with Sam was that Dean was telling him, look I've got control over this, I'm learning to live with it. The Book of the Damned was making Dean feel squirrelly which was probably the Darkness trying to get to Dean. Dean warned Sam to burn the Book and Sam ignored that. That was the point at which Sam went too far. IMO whatever was going on with the Mark, Dean had more insight to how it was making him feel and Sam didn't believe it because he was afraid and thought he knew better and was worried about Dean. It's understandable but a problem

 

I can put that aside but when Sam learned what the Darkness was he was the ONLY person who could have stopped the spellworks by making a call to Cas, Crowley and Rowena and telling them to stop. Maybe Rowena wouldn't have but he needed to try.  So to me, yeah that's on Sam at that point.

 

found the callback with the hooks to be too reminiscent of Dean on meathooks via ending Season 3.

 

 

Oh man, that's very true. I didn't even think about that. Man, that really annoys me. Like Dean can't even get the meathooks to himself?  LOL .Sigh.

 

It looks like Dean is saving Cas which is nice! But here's something I'm trying to figure out.

 

Why is Dean hunting alone in that Ghostbusters bit. Where is Sam if the boys are back together? 

 

I can't explain it but I almost get a vibe that that at some point Dean and Sam don't know each other.

 

Simultaneously looking forward to and alternately terrified of the Baby episode with Dean in almost all of it and having a fight with two people in the backseat which I'm terrified that's the end of Baby :(.  

Edited September 9, 2015 by catrox14

[Omegamom]

Sam having the hooks would be a flashback to the Cage, I'm guessing. And the veiny stuff--he hallucinated that when he was detoxing from demon blood, so maybe that's a flashback, too. Maybe God is telling him to open the Cage...? Or maybe he *believes* they're visions coming from God, but it's all in his head cuz he's having a breakdown from the GUILTGUILTGUILT?

;-)

I think Baby's safe, catrox14. Dean has rebuilt her from the ground up before...

[AwesomO4000]

But here I'm not seeing at all how this is Dean's fault in anyway. Nothing Dean did had anything to do with the Darkness being released, no matter how Carver wants to spin it. The Mark being removed was separate from Dean killing Death. Death wasn't even going to send Dean to oblivion unless he killed Sam first.  It seems to me that even if Dean had killed Sam, the spell would have found Dean no matter where he was and removed the Mark anyway. So Death sending Dean into outer space wouldn't have changed anything that I can see.

 

Sam does own this one, but I just don't want to see him wallowing again.

 

Yeah, I doubt that anything will be spun to be on Dean. It generally isn't, and as you said, Dean's even less at fault here than he was with the apocalypse. Carver just couldn't let Sam learn his lesson from the first time and had to set it up so that everything would be his fault - again. Carver did the same thing to Castiel in season 8, so I guess it was just Sam's turn again. (Dean generally doesn't get a turn in the fault category. Even when there's the potential for Dean to mess up, everything turns out right in the end - Gadreel - or gets shifted over to someone else because of something they do - starting the apocalypse / raising Lucifer, raising the Darkness.)

 

Yes it is Sam's fault, but what's bugging me is the "This is all my fault". I thought we were not going to be having that everyone feels guilty thing. Just that it would be..".well crap we fucked this up. Let's fix it."

 

Yeah, I didn't believe that for a moment. I knew this was all set up to be Sam's fault - and that we'd never hear the end of it - from about 5-6 episodes left last season.

 

Sam having the hooks would be a flashback to the Cage, I'm guessing. And the veiny stuff--he hallucinated that when he was detoxing from demon blood, so maybe that's a flashback, too. Maybe God is telling him to open the Cage...? Or maybe he *believes* they're visions coming from God, but it's all in his head cuz he's having a breakdown from the GUILTGUILTGUILT?

 

Oh yeah, it's not God. It's something evil - maybe Lucifer. Sam is hardly ever right about these things. The sad thing is Sam learned that in season 7 when his head was telling him things that weren't there. In my opinion, it's ridiculous that Carver is having Sam be so damn naive as if 180+ years in the cage taught him nothing about not always believing without questioning, especially things in his head. If anyone knows that it's Sam, so what the hell? If anything, Sam should be ignoring anything he's seeing in his head and assume right off that it's not real.

 

I'm so annoyed.

[catrox14]

 

...? Or maybe he *believes* they're visions coming from God, but it's all in his head cuz he's having a breakdown from the GUILTGUILTGUILT

 

 

I can totally believe that. Of course that is the opposite of the "No Guilt" trip that Jensen spoke of but maybe he meant just Dean's perspective.

[catrox14]

 

Carver did the same thing to Castiel in season 8, so I guess it was just Sam's turn again. (Dean generally doesn't get a turn in the fault category. Even when there's the potential for Dean to mess up, everything turns out right in the end - Gadreel - or gets shifted over to someone else because of something they do - starting the apocalypse / raising Lucifer, raising the Darkness.

 

Dean is accepting the blame too here.  We saw that in the sneak peek. Dean saying "It's OUR fault, let's fix it'. IIRC some of the discussion from Carver and company is that Dean killing Death is tied to why the Darkness came back..which IMO is not the case  but whatever Carver.

 

My point was more that "Okay, Carver and company" you've got Jensen and Jared telling us there won't be any blaming and guilt wallowing but right out of the gate in the trailer you've got Sam with the "It's my fault" and praying for help etc.

[SueB]

Memo to me: Never attempt to go screen by screen.  I may throw up.  I'm not joking. Some things were just... no way is that PG-13.  I'm thinking that there is a time-limit on the imagery. Like it can be uber-gross if it's only up for a nanosecond.

 

Bloody Sam: I'm thinking it's a Hell flashback.  I can't even begin to describe the spurting blood and the clamps or something pulling his eyelids/eye skin off.  I may have nightmares.  But this is Sam relieving Hell, I'm pretty sure.  Remember Jared's tattoo is a flashback.  This makes sense to me.  I'm totally grossed out.

 

Black Veined Sam: He definitely gets the infection.  They show a woman's blood splattering on his mouth.  You know, what IS it about bodily fluids and monster-making.  Blood makes vamps, saliva makes werewolves, blood makes Croatoan and this DarkVein thing.  There's more but... bleech.  But I digress.  Anyway, he's talking and coherent and later that shit looks gone. So... something happens there.

 

Night of the Living Dead: DEFINITELY has the vibe

 

Hannah is Dead: The male-Hannah ...i.e. Mannah looks DEAD in one of the instances

 

Crowley in a priests outfit: I'm thinking he ought to be blasted by a bolt of lightening.  I can't wait for the snark.

 

Dean dreams: I think the sexy ladies are Dean objectifying women in his dreams again. They are all "Busty Asian Beauty" types. One alone and then three writhing on the bed together.  Very much like Song Remains the same.

 

Cas, Cas, Cas: if we never saw that Angel torture device it would be too soon.  But nope, we're going to torture our beloved Castiel. We definitely see snippets of non-bloody-eyed Cas.

 

Rowena: Looks not happy

 

I'm fairly certain we had clips from the first four episodes here.  EP 1 - zombie-ish-land, EP 2 - Crowley in priest garb I bet, EP 3 - I suspect Cas torture heavy and this is the only one for sure that I know Rowena is in, EP 4 - Dean getting grabbed from behind in Baby

 

My prep for these episodes based on this:

1) No eating 2 hrs prior

2) ALCOHOL

3) more ALCOHOL

 

 

ETA: I'm afraid to look on Tumblr

Edited September 9, 2015 by SueB

[catrox14]

My friend, who I just got hooked on the show and who just finished s5 over the weekend, (muahhahahahaha) was shocked at how much SPN gets away with on network TV.

 

Methinks Hannibal has set that bar a lot higher now hence the gross Sam eyeball thing. But of course Dean in the meathooks was awful. The Sam eyeball thing is very Clockwork Orange.  Maybe he's being forced to see the damage the boys caused.

[catrox14]

 

think the sexy ladies are Dean objectifying women in his dreams again. They are all "Busty Asian Beauty" types. One alone and then three writhing on the bed together.  Very much like Song Remains the same.

 

 

Since when is Dean  dreaming about and enjoying strippers and nude models in magazines who actually get paid to do those things is Dean objectifying women again? Sorry, but that rubs me the wrong way.  Seems more like Dean getting back enjoying sex again if even in his own dreams. 

[Omegamom]

Don't forget spleen juice spreads ghost fever. ;-)

SueB, how do you go through screen by screen?

And was that Cole in the door-opening scene?

[rue721]

To be fair, it *is* Sam's fault. Haven't we spent the last few months grumbling that he could have just MADE A PHONE CALL to stop the spell?!?

 

Eh, mistakes were made. But the reason I laughed/rolled my eyes at Sam's "IT'S ALL MY FAUUUUUUUULT!" is because it's like, way to make this primordial Darrrrrrknessss that has overtaken the earth all about you, dude. Get some perspective! :P

 

I can't explain it but I almost get a vibe that that at some point Dean and Sam don't know each other.

 

I kind of get what you mean. Dean's sardonic "ghostbusters!" was kind of old school to me somehow. It seemed like he was off hunting on his own and not stressing about Sam at all. Also, basically none of Dean and Sam's clips related to each other very much. It seemed like they had entirely different (and isolated) arcs going on.

 

I tend to think that the writhing women are some kind of trick or dream, because that's usually how this show has played those kinds of scenes in the past. It might be in Dean's perspective, but imo it's also possible that it could have something to do with Rowena or even Crowley (I say that because it could be related to some sort of spell). Or maybe....did anyone with sharper eyes than mine catch whether any of the women were Amara?

[AwesomO4000]

Dean is accepting the blame too here.  We saw that in the sneak peek. Dean saying "It's OUR fault, let's fix it'. IIRC some of the discussion from Carver and company is that Dean killing Death is tied to why the Darkness came back..which IMO is not the case  but whatever Carver.

 

But Dean accepts blame for almost everything, even stuff that's obviously not his fault. I don't consider him a very reliable narrator ; ) . As for Dean killing Death supposedly being a factor, as you said, that makes no sense, and I doubt we'll see anything about it in the show narrative, even if Carver is trying to say so. And if it is, it will likely be like Dean breaking the first seal - which wasn't even the real issue. It was Dean making the deal in the first place - mentioned once or twice for some angst and then not mentioned again.

 

I think the thing that bugs me most is the message this seems to be saying. Every time Sam or Castiel screws up, something huge and awful happens. If Dean screws up, nothing really happens, except maybe to himself, or what happens is greatly outweighed by good coming from it. I'm not saying I want Dean to have awful consequences here. I'm saying I want Sam and Castiel to have less consequences, too, or at least have a chance for something good to come out of it like Dean gets to have. Or at the very least for it not to mean an apocalypse is started. I mean, literally each time Cas or Sam has made a mistake now, the result has been an apocalypse or world-threatening catastrophe of some sort. How unlucky are those two?

 

My point was more that "Okay, Carver and company" you've got Jensen and Jared telling us there won't be any blaming and guilt wallowing but right out of the gate in the trailer you've got Sam with the "It's my fault" and praying for help etc.

 

I knew that was a ruse. The show hardly ever lets go of a chance to blame Sam for stuff. It's been a running joke / theme throughout the show since the beginning of season 5. I'm pretty sure this season is going to be similar to season 5 in that regard - except likely worse in that I expect Sam's being set up for yet more mistakes to come this season. Carver doesn't seem to be able to let Sam learn anything or keep any character growth. He has him make the same mistakes over and over again.

 

And now Sam's going to have untold numbers of deaths on his hands. Again. Some more.

 

I'm still annoyed.