Spoilers With Speculation

SueB · July 19, 2014

I'm terrified about the musical. I'm sure it could be wonderful. I'm just terrified for them. Joss Whedon was brilliant. You have to be brilliant to pull this off. I'm scared.

catrox14 · July 19, 2014

You're terrified about the musical and I'm terrified about demon! Dean LOL

PeteMartell · July 19, 2014

No and yes, because that's how the SPN writers roll ;) Seriously, I am so freaking sick of Dean's 'low self-esteem' issues becoming his primary and most defining characteristic and think the one good thing that could come out of a DemonDean storyline I'm otherwise not looking forward to would be if he finally realized he's worthy and the writers just MOVED ON already. One reason S1 and S2 were (and still are!) so enjoyable for me to watch is because while Dean had some vulnerabilities and insecurities beneath that bravado (who doesn't?!), he was also so much FUN---spirited and funny and snarky and brave and amusingly cocky and kind of edgy and someone with a surprisingly infectious enthusiasm for life, especially considering the crappy life he's had to lead. He had a funloving energy that so nicely countrebalanced the show's gloom and doom. And then several seasons ago he (and the show in general) became ALL. About. The. ANGST, and Dean became a sad, alcohol-soaked, joyless shell of his self, IMO. I'm so over it. I want the boys and their relationship more healthy and likable again, and I want the inevitable angst to stem from common enemies the brothers bond together to battle rather than from their own 'but I'm not woooorrrthy' issues already. Is that too much to ask?! Yes...yes, it is :)

Season 3, basically.

I thought Dean was his happiest in a long time for much of season 8 (although now I realize they were building him up to tear him down), but many fans kept saying Dean had become a "housewife," so I wonder if fan response will ever allow Dean or Sam to not just drown in angst.

I'm terrified about the musical. I'm sure it could be wonderful. I'm just terrified for them. Joss Whedon was brilliant. You have to be brilliant to pull this off. I'm scared.

Jensen and Misha can sing, and Mark can too, but it's going to be one of those moments that is going to be seen as shark-jumping, because it's so difficult to pull off. I didn't even like the Buffy one all that much.

It's funny, because I've heard fans saying for years that they want this, yet I have a feeling they're probably going to tear it apart.

The part that interests me most is about this person who is following Dean and Crowley. I wonder if it will be a hunter.

DittyDotDot · July 19, 2014

It's funny, because I've heard fans saying for years that they want this, yet I have a feeling they're probably going to tear it apart.

Well, I've been wanting a musical-ish episode, not necessarily a full on musical episode. Meaning, I've wanted them to do something involving a musical monster and has some great music in it, but characters just breaking out in song and dance is not something that I'm looking forward to. I imagine they will do the latter though since they seem to not understand the whole concept of less is more.

SueB · July 19, 2014

Fantastic JA TCA snippet from @danielletbd via @clarrissa373

- Dean and Crowley honeymoon short lived.

- it would appear we don't have a Dean/Cas moment in first 3 episodes (base on 3 being filmed,Jensen knows the 1&2 content) and his comment about not dealing with it yet

-Crowley needs help with Dean! My spec:he asks Moose.

Edited July 19, 2014 by SueB

Demented Daisy · July 19, 2014

Already spoiled for Fan Fiction -- although I didn't realize it would be the 200th episode. Everything makes a little more sense now.

Any scoop about Supernatural, please? –6Spike

Fresh from TCA, show boss Jeremy Carver tells us that Episode 5, the series’ 200th, will be titled “Fan Fiction,” a meta bit of fun written by Robbie Thompson.

Edited July 19, 2014 by Demented Daisy

DittyDotDot · July 19, 2014

Oh crap, I was afraid it was going to be written by Robbie Thompson...sigh.

7kstar · July 19, 2014

Oh crap, I was afraid it was going to be written by Robbie Thompson...sigh.

I don't know, some of his has been done pretty well, I liked First Born so I'll wait to see what they do. I think the thing I like about the actors is that they seem really excited about the season and their characters and that is a good sign. Although there are always parts I don't like there are parts I do.

If creating shows were so easy to do right, everyone would be doing it. It's easy to nitpick but I don't think Robbie is terrible writer for the show.

Season 3, basically.

I thought Dean was his happiest in a long time for much of season 8 (although now I realize they were building him up to tear him down), but many fans kept saying Dean had become a "housewife," so I wonder if fan response will ever allow Dean or Sam to not just drown in angst.

Jensen and Misha can sing, and Mark can too, but it's going to be one of those moments that is going to be seen as shark-jumping, because it's so difficult to pull off. I didn't even like the Buffy one all that much.

It's funny, because I've heard fans saying for years that they want this, yet I have a feeling they're probably going to tear it apart.

I like musicals but you have to accept that musicals are an art form and expressed through singing and movement. Now they could poke fun of it and create something funny. I have seen some that were good but those that hate musicals very seldom like musicals. If they used a curse or something that made the characters have to sing and dance it could be a hoot. Now what they will come up with I don't know.

But it could be funny if the cast was cursed to perform a Disney like musical and afterwards , after they were cured they could deny that they even did it. But then again I'm twisted that way. :) Not sure that anyone would like what I like, but did I stress I like Musicals to begin with?

DittyDotDot · July 19, 2014

I don't know, some of his has been done pretty well, I liked First Born so I'll wait to see what they do. I think the thing I like about the actors is that they seem really excited about the season and their characters and that is a good sign. Although there are always parts I don't like there are parts I do.

If creating shows were so easy to do right, everyone would be doing it. It's easy to nitpick but I don't think Robbie is terrible writer for the show.

I don't think Robbie is the worst writer on the show or anything, but he tends to try and be so very cute and meta instead of telling a tight story. I also think he spends far too much time cramming things he thinks the fans will love and/or cramming in the "feels" rather than those things happening naturally to the narrative. His episodes feel more like fan fiction to me--I'm not dogging fan fiction, it may not be my thing, but I also think there is probably a lot of it out there that's quite good--so, I would prefer him not to write the cute and meta episodes is all. I think he does okay with the non-silly episodes--First Born wasn't bad--but his off-beat episodes feel out of tone to me. That's why I'm a little cautious about him doing the musical one. I'm in no way against the whacky or the whimsical...I adored almost all of Edlund's episodes--but it needs to fit in with the tone of the show and I'm not sure that he's the best writer to pull it off. Of the current staff, I'd say Jeremy Carver would be better suited to the task, but I imagine he's a bit busy doing other stuff.

7kstar · July 19, 2014

I don't think Robbie is the worst writer on the show or anything, but he tends to try and be so very cute and meta instead of telling a tight story. I also think he spends far too much time cramming things he thinks the fans will love and/or cramming in the "feels" rather than those things happening naturally to the narrative. His episodes feel more like fan fiction to me--I'm not dogging fan fiction, it may not be my thing, but I also think there is probably a lot of it out there that's quite good--so, I would prefer him not to write the cute and meta episodes is all. I think he does okay with the non-silly episodes--First Born wasn't bad--but his off-beat episodes feel out of tone to me. That's why I'm a little cautious about him doing the musical one. I'm in no way against the whacky or the whimsical...I adored almost all of Edlund's episodes--but it needs to fit in with the tone of the show and I'm not sure that he's the best writer to pull it off. Of the current staff, I'd say Jeremy Carver would be better suited to the task, but I imagine he's a bit busy doing other stuff.

Edlund's a hit and miss for me. Some of his earlier ones I really liked, and I've liked Robbie's so nothing will make all the fans happy. I think it depends on how they do this, but then again I'm not a horror fan and what some say is bad writing isn't so much as they are unhappy with the story being told.

Yes there is bad fanfiction out there, but there is also some that is really interesting and some just write a form that their fans like.

I think the problem with the Meta, is they no longer try NOT to break the fourth wall. Sometimes it is too much inside jokes and they should pull back a bit. Writing the characters out of character isn't really the problem, it's not hitting the mark on why they are out of character. All of us do things that are a bit out of character at times, but the reason has to be strong enough for us to buy that. That sometimes is the weakness for me.

SueB · July 19, 2014

I imagine they'll be a lot of senior management attention on the 200th ep + it being a musical.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2x0QrAhP0cU

Give me my remote interview with Jensen. Only the tiniest spoiler about the state of Demon!Dean by ep 3 so I've posted here but it's 99.99% spoiler free.

Thoughts:

- He spent his birthday at his camera man's house? Supernatural Family Feels.

- His passion for directing is so evident. I hope he gets to do more. I'll be watching for that Crowley shot he mentions.

- Jared stopping by was also pretty adorable.

- He treats Demon!Dean like a new character. I would love to know how he and the creators went thru deciding 'who' Demon!Dean was; what's his motivation, how is he feeling, what does he understand?

7kstar · July 19, 2014

I imagine they'll be a lot of senior management attention on the 200th ep + it being a musical.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2x0QrAhP0cU

Give me my remote interview with Jensen. Only the tiniest spoiler about the state of Demon!Dean by ep 3 so I've posted here but it's 99.99% spoiler free.

Thoughts:

- He spent his birthday at his camera man's house? Supernatural Family Feels.

- His passion for directing is so evident. I hope he gets to do more. I'll be watching for that Crowley shot he mentions.

- Jared stopping by was also pretty adorable.

- He treats Demon!Dean like a new character. I would love to know how he and the creators went thru deciding 'who' Demon!Dean was; what's his motivation, how is he feeling, what does he understand?

One thing I admire about Jensen is his attention to details and the ability to listen to suggestions. He's open and understands the creative process whether he learned this at school or not.

I know I learned a lot about acting, directing differences between film and stage, but found that my students have taught me more as I tried to figure out the process that would work for them to improve their own performances and no one student is the same. I also allow my students to give me ideas and find that we create so much more. But then I have the benefit of more time for a production even though I'm fighting they don't know that much and are kids.

Both Jensen and a director he has stated he has admired both got their start in directing in a similar pathways. Robert Duncan McNeill and both have learned from listening. I think it's this ability to listen and feel that this is new and interesting direction that will provide some very interesting choices for Demon Dean.

Right now I'm looking forward to the season and I wonder what kind of trouble Dean has gotten himself into. I wish we had a bit more to go on, as it is hard to speculate with the variables being so open. This also makes me hopeful that some breath of fresh air will be thrown into the mix and the rinse and repeat will not be so strong this season.

catrox14 · July 20, 2014

I just LOVE that interview with Jensen. I think that guy is a genius. I really do. He learned his craft on the job. He never went to school for acting or film. Sure some of it was a natural talent for acting but everything else he seems to have learned of his own accord by studying on his own and learning from those people he admired and from sheer determination to be the best at his job, regardless of his education.

I'll just be over here in the corner, gross sobbing because that doesn't sound at all like anyone we know...

SueB · July 21, 2014

Jared Padalecki interview

http://www.tvfanatic.com/2014/07/supernatural-spoilers-jared-padelecki-talks-flashbacks-demon-dea/

So...I'm thinking they decided to not muzzle the boys after all.

Highlights for me:

- Season starts 2 months in

- I'm fairly sure it's implied Sam puts it all together by EP3 but not before then (or he has some but not all the pieces)

- There's a definite flashback to Sam during the missing two months

-Crowley is on his shit list

- It appears he asks Cas (and others) for help but the weakened Cas is not very helpful.

See, this is why I like spoilers. In truth, I wanted to see Dean wake up and react to being a demon. We may still get that but if we do, it'll be a flashback. What I'm glad about is hat now that I know there's a time jump, I won't have misaligned expectations. It really is a challenge I think. In order to get Sam and Dean back together within the first few episodes, they either shorten Dean's demon time or do a jump. I can live with the jump.

catrox14 · July 21, 2014

Boo, to the stupid time jump. I wanted to see Dean's reaction right away and not in flashback style. Boo!

These first 3 episodes better be pretty damn Dean centric, because other than Dean being born at all and then going to Hell, this is the single most important arc Dean has ever had. I mean gods it's HUGE. And it better be given the attention it deserves.

But based on the spoilers so far, I'm not thrilled. I can't wait to come back here and be as wrong as I could be but man, this is kind of pissing me off with flashbacks. It sounds way too much like Sam's Amelia life flashbacks and Demon!Dean deserves something better than that. Bleh :(

SueB · July 21, 2014

I'm completely confident we'll see lots of Demon!Dean in the first three episodes. Carver is not a dummy in my book. It's got buzz and he knows it. It's like having a shiny new toy. He'll play with it.

catrox14 · July 21, 2014

I'm completely confident we'll see lots of Demon!Dean in the first three episodes. Carver is not a dummy in my book. It's got buzz and he knows it. It's like having a shiny new toy. He'll play with it.

Oh i know he'll play with it. But the question is how much will he destroy it before fixing it

SueB · July 21, 2014

So... another interview. VIEWER WARNING LABEL FOR CATROX14: Put away all sharp objects before reading.

http://tvline.com/2014/07/21/supernatural-season-10-spoilers-demon-dean-dark-sam/

Oh boy. So DARK Demon!Dean. And Sammy is DARK too. So basically we appear to be getting Sam back into ruthless mode (I'm reminded of S3 Mystery Spot with a Souless Sam-ish lime twist). And Dean.... let's just say I'm scared.

What are Dean's bad qualities that he would let loose with in a DARK way:

- Torture

- Just deserts (when he let that guy suffer for a while after being shot before he touched him -- when he was wearing Death's ring)

- Petty (yes, Dean can carry a grudge and be mean spirited some times). I still love him. But...who should look out: how about Walt & Roy -- the two that shot Sam and Dean in S5? The Alpha Vamp (oh how I wish!... not likely), any number of witches that they didn't kill, ... Crowley obviously but that's complicated. Any demon who he runs across that he just doesn't like. Pedophiles and other baddies that he doesn't like as a group. Bullies. Yes.... Dean could dish out some payback to a few people in a DARK way.

- Meaningless sex seems probable. But it's never been a "bad" quality except for he HAS misrepresented who he is in the past when hooking up.

- Verbally ripping into Sam and Cas for past hurts --- I'd be surprised if he misses this opportunity.

The issue will be if he kills actual innocents. That doesn't seem like a Dean bad quality that he would let loose. To me, Dean can get nasty to those he feels earned it but never to those he classifies as "innocent." I'd be really surprised if that changed.

Yep... excited and a bit scared. Well done Carver, nice tease.

ETA: It's interesting how Carver is tying Sam and Dean into the world's mythology still. That it was Cain is clearly not just convenient. So what mythology is he going after? The Father of Murder. I can't believe there's a Murder-apocalypse out there so.... what's the other shoe. What is the payoff? NOT murdering Able (Sam)? Hmmmmmmmmm. Seems to 'personal' to be a world-class topic like Carver is implying.

Edited July 21, 2014 by SueB

catrox14 · July 21, 2014

I LOL'd at your trigger warning.

To be fair, both brothers have always misrepresented who they are with women...Sam fucked that doctor in her office when he was in his FBI clothing for Pete's sake. But Dean has always told a woman his real name AFAIK when it came time to being in a relationship.

I do kind of like the idea of Dean going after Walt and Roy because fuck those guys in their ears..

Torturer!Dean in Hell never became a demon and he already admitted he got relief by torturing souls. But if he's going after innocents? GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

The only part that is really upsetting me is that that it's taking Demon!Dean for poor Dean to be able to talk about all the shit that ever hurt him that Sam or Cas did (which I kind of thought he did say to Cas in 9.22) and he has said to Sam in bits and pieces. Now assuming they get him back to Regular!Dean then will all the stuff he tells Sam and Cas be dismissed because oh it was Demon!Dean and he doesn't mean it? Or that it will reflect poorly on Dean for being upset with Sam for Sam's season 4 shenanigans when he was hopped up on demon blood. That doesn't thrill me.

But I can tell you this: Dean Winchester is one of the most iconic and original characters and straight up heroes that has ever graced our screen, IMO. Carver better not destroy Dean's past unhealthy but not evil coping skills that consist of alcohol, casual sex and righteous anger with Sam and Cas by making it into something evil. That is my single greatest fear with Carver. Because whilst he has this shiny new toy, I think he's never actually liked Dean Winchester. I've got him on notice.

Uh.. Okay, I just read more about Carver's thoughts on Dean. And godsdammit, it is exactly what I feared. YOu were absolutely correct @SueB to issue that warning because fuck that interview. Is Carver really saying that Dean will never not be demony again???

.

It’s more just rooting him in something more final, something that will not necessarily totally go away even when/if he’s converted back from demonism.

From Carver:

then afterwards is when it will have the most effect on him because it was him. It was his actions that led him to becoming a demon. He pushed it with the Mark. He pushed Sammy away at the end of last season. He said, “I can do this by myself.” So there’s a certain consequence to all this that is almost more interesting to us than the actual demon part.

Rant warning. Feel free to ignore

What in the ever loving crap is Carver talking about here? Sam was rightfully upset with Dean for what he did re Gadreel. Sam separated himself from Dean and I understand why that happened. Sam further pushed Dean away in Sharp Teeth by more than insinuation "no brothers" and then his words at the end of the Purge which is why Dean started standing on his own away from the brother that had already put distance between them, and didn't actually look for him in s8 and didn't really ever apologize for that either. At the end of Captives, Dean turned to talk to Sam and Sam walked away. At that point, Dean IMO had no reason to think that Sam was in his corner at all (never mind the Mark's influence).

Sam didn't really pay that much attention until Blade Runners when he saw how dangerous Dean was under the influence of the Blade. And even after that he didn't really just get in Dean's face and say 'Dean, you're my brother. I'm still upset about the Gadreel thing but I see that something is really wrong here." It was played IMO far more with judgment than concern for Dean. Possibly fear of Dean? It was only when Dean wanted to take the Blade in 9.21 that Sam even really seemed upset. It was still pretty dispassionate side eye than full on "Holy shit Dean. This is really bad and we need to really research this. I'm really scared for you right now. And OH MY GOD!"

So then when Dean does, really the kind of healthy thing by distancing himself and fighting the fight on his own which really was true...that's why Dean is a fucking demon now? Someone help me get another read on this because I'm more than a little annoyed right now with this. It seems to me that Carver has actually killed off Dean Winchester as we have always known him and that he doesn't seem to be backing off that.

HALP ME.

Edited July 21, 2014 by catrox14

Demented Daisy · July 21, 2014

Dean is not possessed by anything. It’s his own soul that’s been twisted into a demon soul, so this demon is not anyone other than Dean.

Forgive me, I'm going to say something that I've never said before and hoped I never would.

Fuck you, Carver. And fuck this show. If Demon Dean is not like Soulless Sam, if everything he does is a choice made by Dean, then he has ruined, IMO, what was once a fun, quirky show, full of good guys who try to do the right thing. Yeah, they make mistakes -- they're human, after all -- but they have never intentionally been evil.

Until now, it appears. Carver's character assassination is complete. I'll watch, just to see how bad it gets, but if Carver is not very, very careful, he will have ruined the entire run of the show for me. I know myself -- when re-watching, I'll start to question every borderline decision Dean has made and I'll wonder if it's because some evil, some darkness, inside him compelled him.

So while he’s a demon, that causes some complication of thought in him in that, “This is really me doing it.” It also motivates a certain bravado. “Yeah, this is me doing and owning it!”

I feel sick and sad and angry.

It was his actions that led him to becoming a demon. He pushed it with the Mark. He pushed Sammy away at the end of last season. He said, “I can do this by myself.” So there’s a certain consequence to all this that is almost more interesting to us than the actual demon part.

Great. Just wonderful. [/sarcasm]

AwesomO4000 · July 21, 2014

Oh, crap... just what I suspected.

"Sam is so invested in finding his brother that it leads him to do some questionable things that will make him and, certainly, the audience wonder which one of these guys is the true monster."

So basically if Dean does something "evil," Sam will do something worse. And, after saving himself, if Dean finds out what Sam did, he'll be horrified and angry, because Sam would know Dean wouldn't want him to do things like that. I then suspect that when Sam finds out about Dean being a demon, Carver will have Sam try to hunt/kill Dean or something - even though Sam too did whatever awful things that Carver is implying - while having Sam say "but you're a demon!!" angst, angst, *self-righteousness cakes.* Dean will then save himself while Sam fails and goes dark for nothing, because Carver can't seem to allow Sam to do anything for Dean.

So, yeah, I'm expecting more throwing Sam under the bus... which I think I predicted previously when Dean became a demon.

I hope that Carver proves me wrong, but I'm not as hopeful as you @SueB.

Because whilst he has this shiny new toy, I think he's never actually liked Dean Winchester.

I'm not so sure about that @catrox14, but if he doesn't actually like Dean, I suspect he really dislikes Sam, so I'm expecting Sam's character to take the hits here, so Dean will look good in comparison... which seems to be pretty much what that quote from him above is implying.

I understand your concern @DementedDaisy, but I suspect it'll be more like what SueB is saying in terms of Demon Dean. As with season 4, and implied by the quote, I suspect they'll save the worst of what's being done for Sam to do... and he'll have no twisted demon soul as an excuse, or even this time, blood addiction or saving the world. Sam will already be going against what he said he'd do last season - refrain from going to the lengths Dean did to "save" Sam - and in addition, it will be making all his protestations in season 8 of not looking for Dean being supposedly the "right" thing to do even more crappy... So when Sam should have gone all "Mystery Spot" looking for Dean in season 8, he didn't, but now that Dean specifically wouldn't want it, Sam's going to do it and become the "true monster." And probably fail or screw something up somehow to boot. Thanks a lot, Carver.

I can't believe there's a Murder-apocalypse out there so.... what's the other shoe. What is the payoff?

My guess @SueB? "True monster" Sam sets off some stupid something while trying to find Dean/get Dean back, etc - a la raising Lucifer - and Dean has to kill him to stop it, so Cain and Abel is in effect, but it's to save the world! Dean will blame himself for whatever Sam did and be the martyr hero with the (demon) heart of gold and Sam will be the eternal he-tries-but-always-screws-up that Carver seems to like him to be. Bonus points if Dean has to remain a demon to do it even though he really wants to be cured, and is somehow able to reign his demon in even after Sam's death or - if it's the series finale - sacrifices himself along with Sam, because someone has to make the sacrifice and love screw up Sam.

catrox14 · July 21, 2014

I am so upset right now you guys. This sounds like utter character assassination of Dean and Sam to a degree. I have dreaded all along that Carver was going to play this stupid human vs monsters vs humans. If that's what he's suggesting fuck Carver.

Jensen and Jared deserve better than this shit.

I'll be back later to rant more. :(

Edited July 22, 2014 by catrox14

Demented Daisy · July 21, 2014

Well, @AwesomO4000, unless Sam goes around killing innocents to try to save Dean, I'm going to know who the monster is. And it's going to be Dean because, to quote Dogma, he's a fucking demon.

I forgave everything Sam did in season 6 because he was soulless. I even forgave him for killing the nurse (and I thought that pretty much all of season 4 was character assassination) because he genuinely believed he was saving the world. Sam was not evil, so I could keep on watching

Even if they turn Dean into Edward Cullen, especially if they turn Dean into Edward Cullen, I am going to hate every minute of this. I didn't want Dean to become a demon -- hell, I didn't even want him to go dark -- because I knew it wouldn't last and we'd have to deal with months of Dean ANGST.

This interview appears to be confirming my worst fears. Thanks a lot, show.

Aeryn13 · July 21, 2014

Would Dean Winchester please report to the character assassination desk? Repeat, Dean Winchester, please report to the character assassination desk immediately.

You know I don`t have a problem with dark arcs, depending on the show I have no trouble buying redemption for characters who have gone on killing sprees etc. But these writers? Will most certainly fuck it up.

Was it necessary to keep harping on how Demon!Dean is Dean and nothing but Dean? Which, no, he won`t be. He isn`t HUMAN-Dean, that`s the whole point. If nothing distinguishes him from human-Dean, then there will be no storyline. Something HAS to make him different as a demon therefore how he acts as a demon can never be completely synonymous with how he was a a human.

Also, they could throw out buckets of whitewash previously on other characters but now what, the story is all out when it`s Dean? There is a shortcut to make me utterly hate characters and unevenly applied whitewash is it.

Also, this ridiculous assumption that it is really also his fault. At the very least, did Crowley not play a very important final part? Them not acknowledging Sam`s douchery playing any part in the dissolution of the relationship is expected. And I can only shake my head at "he pushed away Sammy". Carver really does seem to see the character as the bouncy bouncy baby of the scenario. Little Sammy. Who is too small to be besmirched with responsibility. .

AwesomO4000 · July 21, 2014

unless Sam goes around killing innocents to try to save Dean, I'm going to know who the monster is.

As much as I loved "Mystery Spot" - and I really do love that episode - the implication was there that Sam was headed in that direction to save Dean, and that was a Carver episode. Back then, I would've forgiven Sam that, because there was guilt since Dean made the deal to save him, Sam thought Dean's soul was in hell, and The Trickster/Gabriel had driven Sam half-crazy. And we saw that progression of Sam going downhill throughout the episode. But the implication was there that Sam would in fact kill an innocent to get Dean back and out of hell.

Now Carver has the chance to actually go there - and I suspect he may take it, therefor explaining us, the viewers, wondering which of the brothers is the "true monster". I can't see Sam doing much of anything else to make us wonder that - well maybe sacrificing a dog could be involved, but that would likely be in addition to, I suspect. But the reasons/justifications will not be as clear cut as in "Mystery Spot" or even when he killed the nurse - Sam thought he was potentially saving the world there - which is why I think it will be much more damaging if Carver does go there now without having some really good backstory and justifications; which, in my opinion, he showed with season 8 he doesn't really care much about that when it comes to Sam.

(and I thought that pretty much all of season 4 was character assassination)

I pretty much agree - it's why I have the unpopular opinion that season 4 is fairly far down on my list of favorite seasons. Generally below season 5 and even the usually much less liked season 7. If the quality episode-wise in the first half of season 6 was better, I'd like season 6 better also. The season 4 highs were really high - like "The Monster At the End of this Book" and "It's A Terrible Life" - but the lows were so low - Like "Sex and Violence" - and don't get me started on my season 4 thoughts...

SueB · July 21, 2014

I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that Carver dislikes EITHER Sam or Dean. He's been associated with Supernatural since S3. If he really disliked one of the characters, why be the show runner? Sure, theoretically, he could have taken the job just for the money or because he has an axe to grind. But I feel like that's a low percentage bet.

More likely he may or may not have the same perspective on the character as I do. But just because his perspective says character X would do Y and I think they wouldn't, doesn't mean he dislikes the character.

Personally I feel BOTH Kripke and Carver see a darker side to Sam and Dean that they like to explore. For example, Kripke had Dean be a pretty big asshole from time to time. Did I like it? Nope. But I could see it. And Sam? Sam can be intellectually arrogant from time to time. Is that inconsistent with Sam having some serious insecurity issues? Not in my book -- damn, I even RESEMBLE THAT REMARK myself. So... if I can be that way, Sam can.

So what does Carver "see" that is dark and why is he going to stick our noses in it??? I'll answer the second part first -- he's going to drag the characters thru darkness because it's INTERESTING. He, even more than Kripke, kinda strikes me as a bit artsy-fartsy. He wants to plumb the depth of these character's psyche and the likable parts are just not as juicy. To some extent the "likeable parts" were what we got a lot of the first half of S9. Sam and Dean on the road, in a hotel, working a case (see Dawg Dean Afternoon). They banter back and forth and it's fun. But there's more angsty juice in their flaws and these extreme conditions (Dean being a Demon) are just perfect for exploiting those flaws.

IMO Carver has set up each of the two characters over S8 & S9 to go dark in the first half of S10.

Sam - NEEDS REDEMPTION. No one bought the S8 not looking for Dean thing. I certainly see it as Sam 101 compartmentalization and the way he deals with his trauma. But the show didn't explore that. They left that a festering wound that Dean picked at all S8. And so Sam felt he failed Dean (well... ugly truth is he did). In the psyche of Sam is it reasonable that he would wig out and lose himself in a non-hunter life? Yes, I think it is. But in S9 we saw Sam is so over that. He stuck with hunting after finding out about Gadreel and he stuck with Dean even though he was pretty hurt/traumatized by the Angel possession. But he never SAVED DEAN. I think everyone sees he needs to do this. But unlike Mystery Spot where he just hunted the Trickster and went Robo-Hunter -- this Sam has been around the block 6 more times. Last year in the second episode he thought Dean slit Crowley's throat because that's what HE'D do. Sam really really hates that demon. But when he made that throat slitting motion, he was pretty matter of fact about it. So I see Sam employing all his formidable talents into finding Dean and Crowley and I fully expect any demon he runs into is going to be mince-meat. In unpretty ways. I don't expect Sam to start hurting innocent civilians. So.... Dark Sam is (I believe) going to get his torture on looking for info. Because SAVING DEAN is job one.

Dark Demon!Dean OTOH, is what I said above. In S8 he built up a great deal of RESENTMENT, and he was still PTSD. In S9 he acted on instinct that he felt was right but everything turned to shit (Kevin died, Sam rejected him, he went out of his mind a bit with murderlust). What Dean needs to to LIKE HIMSELF. Carver has no problem showing Dean to be an asshole. And he also loves showing Dean emotionally ripped up. This is the dude who wrote both "A Very Supernatural Christmas" and "Point of No Return". I expect a very bitter Dean getting some payback as a Demon. Still driven by his own hurt. I worry he'll hurt those who have his same weaknesses --- that he'll do them a favor by ripping their hearts out before they turn into a weeping mess. Yeah, I could see Carver going there. I don't know what it profits a Demon!Dean to hurt an innocent. That would be my biggest worry. But ultimately, he's gotta go thru some crap to see he's an okay guy. So maybe he develops empathy for those like him and that helps. IDK. But they'll be a point to his victims I think.

Finally, this is BUZZ season. I find Carver overplays his hand sometimes. So while it could be HORRIFIC, it could also be far less horrible than I imagine. I'm content that it's progressing along.

My biggest irritation - Cas's story seems a little stagnant.

Note: I have no problem with Carver saying Dean made a choice to not get the warning label before taking on the Mark (he was desperate but he still was pretty foolish there) and he made a choice to leave Sam behind (he was on a suicide mission after all). So maybe Carver's issue with Dean's choices are that they are shitty to DEAN. Dean throws his life away as worthless. He's going to pay for treating himself with so little respect. Who said thinking that you are a monster/poison is a virtue?

Edited July 21, 2014 by SueB

Demented Daisy · July 21, 2014

he's going to drag the characters thru darkness because it's INTERESTING.

It's interesting for him, and probably for Jensen as well. For the audience? Perhaps not so much.

For me, what's INTERESTING is having one character, surrounded by the supernatural, remaining human. It's what made Dean relatable to the audience in a way that Castiel and, to a lesser extent, Sam will never be. Dean fought his way through demons and monsters and angels and sometimes his own brother without the help of his own powers. He had nothing more than "a GED and a give-'em-hell attitude". But we can't say that now.

Oh, sure, he'll be human again. But he will be changed. He will regret a good portion, if not all, of what he did as a demon.

What's wrong with wanting to keep one character uncorrupted? He has been a jerk, an ass, whatever, but even that was part of what made him human.

Now they're going to take his human qualities and twist them until Dean isn't Dean. Or maybe he's not the character I thought he was. (See? It's already started for me.)

ETA Oh, well. What's done is done. No use complaining about it now. Nothing's going to change, so I'll stop wasting my time.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Demented Daisy

AwesomO4000 · July 22, 2014

I'm going to have to disagree with the notion that Carver dislikes EITHER Sam or Dean.

I think you make a strong argument here, @SueB. I was mostly speaking in the theoretical that if the past two seasons have been Carver disliking Dean, then he must really dislike Sam, since Carver took great pains to show Dean's dark arc and make sure the audience was able to sympathize with how it happened. As you mention below, he didn't really take great pains to do that for Sam. The reason I didn't buy Sam not looking for Dean the way it was presented was because it wasn't portrayed as Sam compartmentalizing his pain and loss. It was presented as... well I'm not sure what that was, but it wasn't presented as pain and loss. More like "well people die anyway, so I'm gonna have a normal life." And throwing abandoning Kevin in there with Sam not showing major regret for that was just plain piling on in my opinion. I'm not sure why a writer would do that to a character they like and then not address it properly later.

Sam - NEEDS REDEMPTION. No one bought the S8 not looking for Dean thing. I certainly see it as Sam 101 compartmentalization and the way he deals with his trauma. But the show didn't explore that. They left that a festering wound that Dean picked at all S8. And so Sam felt he failed Dean (well... ugly truth is he did). In the psyche of Sam is it reasonable that he would wig out and lose himself in a non-hunter life? Yes, I think it is. But in S9 we saw Sam is so over that. He stuck with hunting after finding out about Gadreel and he stuck with Dean even though he was pretty hurt/traumatized by the Angel possession. But he never SAVED DEAN. I think everyone sees he needs to do this. But unlike Mystery Spot where he just hunted the Trickster and went Robo-Hunter -- this Sam has been around the block 6 more times. Last year in the second episode he thought Dean slit Crowley's throat because that's what HE'D do. Sam really really hates that demon. But when he made that throat slitting motion, he was pretty matter of fact about it. So I see Sam employing all his formidable talents into finding Dean and Crowley and I fully expect any demon he runs into is going to be mince-meat. In unpretty ways. I don't expect Sam to start hurting innocent civilians. So.... Dark Sam is (I believe) going to get his torture on looking for info. Because SAVING DEAN is job one.

And I could get behind this too, but in order for this to happen, Sam has to actually get to have redemption. He has to be able to save - or at least help save - Dean. Unfortunately that almost never happens. Looking at the major times that Dean has needed saving through the history of this show... Sam almost always fails., and usually spectacularly. There was "Faith" and "Nightmare," but since that time, it's been mostly failure. The season 1 finale, Sam failed to use his powers to save Dean from YED (John saved Dean), he failed to find a way to get Dean out of his deal, he failed to save Dean from Lilith, he couldn't save Dean from hell, he couldn't help Dean with his post-hell trauma (he was actually portrayed as making it worse). Finally in season 6.5 through 7 things were better I thought, but then came season 8 and 9 where Sam failed to save Dean from Purgatory (or even try) and failed to save Dean from becoming a demon. As a bonus he also failed to save Kevin twice - first from Crowley and then from Gadreel. I have this horrible feeling that this season is being set up for more of the same, because when it comes down to it, Dean will likely need redemption as well and saving himself is one of the ways he could do that.

I would also be surprised if the "true monster" thing would be referring only to torturing demons. We've already seen Sam and Dean do some major demon torturing in already ugly ways - that flashback episode in season 7, "Repo Man," showed that it got pretty nasty while trying to save Dean from his deal. I would more think that this would be par for the course.

Edited July 22, 2014 by AwesomO4000

Pete Martell · July 22, 2014

Fuck you, Carver. And fuck this show. If Demon Dean is not like Soulless Sam, if everything he does is a choice made by Dean, then he has ruined, IMO, what was once a fun, quirky show, full of good guys who try to do the right thing. Yeah, they make mistakes -- they're human, after all -- but they have never intentionally been evil.

To me that show wasn't left to ruin. Kripke ruined it when he had Sam murder a nurse and then textually treated it as no big deal.

The show has had it both ways for years - allowed Sam and Dean and those around them to cause huge, ugly chaos on everyone, without having it seriously addressed.

If this is finally addressed in a way that moves beyond beautiful closeups of teary Sam and Dean saying, "I'm poison/I'm a monster," then I think it's a long time coming.

From reading the interview it sounds to me like they aren't going to have Dean go too far, although far enough to have more guilt marathons.

I just hope he isn't going to become human again only to be focused on saving Sam, and his problems are once again swept under the rug. That wouldn't do either character any favors.

7kstar · July 22, 2014

WOW! Just reading some of the comments.

First off J Carver doesn't hate the characters or the show. If he destroys this show, he hurts his career and anyone who wants to do this as a profession knows that. All I've read has me going wait and see not freak out. Everyone has admitted that Season 7 was NOT a good Season and @AwesomO4000 I'm talking about the big bad more than anything else. I respect how much you liked the season.

Jensen is very protective of Dean and I do believe if he had a major problem with the storyline, he would be calling and asking for a meeting. Neither actor is signed on after this year, so they have to like the direction. Plus in one of the interviews, Jensen said to set up for his directing ep, he went back and watched all the high points of the seasons to prepare him for this event.

Now Carver did write Sam as very dark in Season 3 and it struck me when I was watching Mystery Spot with this season 9 in mind. Bobby had a major concern at where Sam's mind was at. He didn't hesitate to kill and was very driven and wiping out monsters left and right. This could be something that Carver will expand.

Although he did GOOF with Sam in season 8 to not look for Dean, I think this was deliberate to show a difference for this season.

Carver keeps more secrets than some of the other show runners and I think deliberately stirs up the pot. Jared and Jensen have both stated in order to really see who Cas and Crowley are you have to see them not together with the Winchesters.

I also take some of what Carver is saying about Dean as something very simple. We all have a dark and light side or good and evil. Dean normally keeps his evil under control but now it is as if his good his missing. It reminds me of an Old Star Trek when Kirk is split in two and one being all good and the other being all bad and the good Kirk discovered he couldn't survive without the bad side. When he was changed back into his normal self, he had to deal with the emotions that he had locked down. He also had to respect the bad side as something good and not hate himself for it.

So what if Carver is really exploring Dean's dark side. The real dark side that took pleasure in torture and killing. What if it opens up new things for both Sam and Dean. Carver has united Dean and Sam twice. The ending in season 8, Shows how much Dean loves Sam and Sam lets Dean know how much he loves his brother.

Dean's never really been the brother in danger and Sam ignored the signs. Dean owns his choices too. He took the mark knowing it had a burden, a cost but he didn't care.

Too me it's almost as if Carver is going back to the end of Season 3 and yet Sam isn't as innocent as he was then.

Even though EVERY ShowRunner had done things I don't like, Carver did give us Benny and some moments that were really well done. Do I expect there will be some angst, YES. When has there not been. Did I like how dark they made John over the years, NO!

I also know that the most boring scene in the world is people being totally happy. Now can they use a nice blend, sure. But I do respect the creative process and Carver did do one thing I never thought he could. He made me re-interested in the show. A show I really thought I was ready to give up. So I will remain hopeful that Sam gets a redeeming arch and that Dean learns to respect himself a bit more. I still remain hopeful that somehow the boys will unite and move the conflict to fighting the good fight together. That could never happen as long as Sam longed for a normal life. I think this is what Carver was after in season 8, to make it clear to Sam that normal apple pie life just isn't in the cards for him. And he is the one that is always hopeful that something good can come from all the bad stuff.

When Dean only saw being a grunt and dying, Sam saw a light and something more. It's time both brothers see that for themselves. How that will look I don't know.

Also I'm NOT bashing what any of you are feeling, I'm just saying wait a bit before you think it is all going down the drain. Some of your worst fears might happen, but some may not. That has been this series since day one. This show will never please all the fans, but if it can do a good enough job that I enjoy the ride then I'll continue. I think Carver is trying to set up a LOT of HYPE, so that the fans are buzzing and that will make people tune in. That's his Job, because if the fans don't watch, all of them, the crew, the actors and the writers are out of JOBS and in this business that isn't a good thing.

I know a set of writers that created a strong show still haven't gotten back in production since their show went off the air. Some fans were happy but many weren't. This is a business and it must produce enough income to keep going. Carver is going to do his best to keep it going.

Edited July 22, 2014 by 7kstar

Demented Daisy · July 22, 2014

If I read something I don't like, I'm going to voice my displeasure. If I see something I love, I'm going to gush.

If I'm wrong about the way the show is heading, then I will be more than happy to say I was wrong. I have frequently implored the show to prove me wrong. But until the season starts, I'm going to talk about the spoilers that come in and how I feel about them.

Isn't that what Carver wants? For us to talk about the show? I would expect a good show runner would want to know what the audience enjoys and what they don't. Isn't that why they're doing this rehash of the season 8 opening? To make up for a story line that the audience hated?

The only way to improve is to hear the good and the bad.

7kstar · July 22, 2014

If I read something I don't like, I'm going to voice my displeasure. If I see something I love, I'm going to gush.

If I'm wrong about the way the show is heading, then I will be more than happy to say I was wrong. I have frequently implored the show to prove me wrong. But until the season starts, I'm going to talk about the spoilers that come in and how I feel about them.

Isn't that what Carver wants? For us to talk about the show? I would expect a good show runner would want to know what the audience enjoys and what they don't. Isn't that why they're doing this rehash of the season 8 opening? To make up for a story line that the audience hated?

The only way to improve is to hear the good and the bad.

Nothing wrong about voicing your opinion and in fact I think this is exactly what Carver is trying to do. If everyone is talking about it with great passion it is a win win for him and I think he is really trying to create that passion. I also think he has acknowledged that fans hated Sam not looking for Dean but his reasons will most likely show up this season.

I also agree that the creative process shouldn't cave to the fans or it becomes a tug of war and creates a show that the actors and writers no longer love which totally shows up on camera. So I'm glad they are excited and hope that this time Sam does get a good storyline. Watching Season 3 makes me wonder how much of this is really coming from watching the earlier eps and asking the question What if?

It is so vastly interesting how different our views are and yet where we find middle ground. But I believe 100% that Carver is just as passionate about this show as Kripke was about some of his ideas that not all the fans loved.

Season 5 gets such mixed reviews with half saying the greatest season ever and the other half saying totally worse ending. Certainly I support you in voicing your views because how else can I see more or learn more without seeing what others see?

And to be honest I have too much real life drama going on, to get worked up over Supernatural right now. For me it works sooooo much better when I don't have any expectations and just watch. The more I really want something the more I get really really disappointed. So I'm in the middle. I expect half I'll like and half I won't. And I like both Dean and Sam. I even like Cass and Crowley. I just happen to lean as a Dean girl more than Sam but then again I relate to the burden Dean had growing up. I wasn't the baby in the family and I did help raised my little brother and sister. But I also went against my parents wishes so I can relate to Sam on that extent.

I think that is why Supernatural has one of the highest numbers of fanfiction out there, so many fans have so much passion that they turn to writing to fix the errors of TPTB ways.

Not trying to start a fight or to put down anyone's views, really. :) I just won't panic over the wording especially when I believe there is so much interpretation to the spoilers. I do look forward to comic con because it always leaks out some really interesting tidbits.

Edited July 22, 2014 by 7kstar

DittyDotDot · July 22, 2014

It's interesting for him, and probably for Jensen as well. For the audience? Perhaps not so much.

For me, what's INTERESTING is having one character, surrounded by the supernatural, remaining human. It's what made Dean relatable to the audience in a way that Castiel and, to a lesser extent, Sam will never be. Dean fought his way through demons and monsters and angels and sometimes his own brother without the help of his own powers. He had nothing more than "a GED and a give-'em-hell attitude". But we can't say that now.

Oh, sure, he'll be human again. But he will be changed. He will regret a good portion, if not all, of what he did as a demon.

What's wrong with wanting to keep one character uncorrupted? He has been a jerk, an ass, whatever, but even that was part of what made him human.

Now they're going to take his human qualities and twist them until Dean isn't Dean. Or maybe he's not the character I thought he was. (See? It's already started for me.)

ETA Oh, well. What's done is done. No use complaining about it now. Nothing's going to change, so I'll stop wasting my time.

This. That's what made Dean interesting to me from day one. Once they introduced that Sammy had visions, I was immediately less interested in him. I always think it's a sign of weak and lazy writing to give your protagonist and hero a special power as a means of exploring their darkness. We all have darkness inside of us and we all have to struggle with it. I find it far more interesting and far more dark to watch someone really deal with his darkness rather than have a special power that makes him dark. but once it's gone they aren't dark anymore. It's a lazy writing trap that they got Dean stuck in right now, I just hope they can get him out of it.

I just can't put my trust in Carver anymore. I trusted him in S8 and was disappointed and was far more disappointed in what he gave us in S9. I'm not talking about Sam not looking for Dean, I'm talking about the overall quality of the show since he took over. I just feel like the show has moved from being a somewhat cleaver little nuanced and unique show to being like almost every other show out there. So, I'm sorry I just can't put my trust in him or the show anymore. That's not to say that I'm freaking out either. I had already concluded that they were going to do this with Dean and already made my peace with it. So no freaking out here, just disappointed, is all.

ETA: Flashbacks and time jumps are just a sign to me that the quality issues that have been dragging the show down for me will be continuing for another season. These are the things that make me pessimistic for now. It's not like they used these poor storytelling devices to their benefit in the past, not sure they can use them any better now.

Edited July 22, 2014 by DittyDotDot

SueB · July 22, 2014

It reminds me of an Old Star Trek when Kirk is split in two and one being all good and the other being all bad and the good Kirk discovered he couldn't survive without the bad side. When he was changed back into his normal self, he had to deal with the emotions that he had locked down. He also had to respect the bad side as something good and not hate himself for it.

I LOVED that episode. I'd be fine if Dean got a version of this. Although without the William.Shatner. School. Of. Acting. (I do love Kirk, BTW, cheese and all... I could wax poetic about him for hours).

these poor storytelling devices

Jared seems to like flashbacks as a story-telling device. I don't think you can say flashbacks are by default poor story-telling. It's a mechanism. Sometimes it works well, sometimes not so much. I'm thinking "I see dead people" (Haley Joe....what the hell was that movie called???) Anyway, if memory serves, that used flashbacks for the big reveal at the end and it was most excellent IMO.

So MMV on flashbacks. I know in S8 I wanted MORE Purgatory flashbacks. And I had no problem with them teasing out Dean's story that way. Sam's story, OTOH, didn't go over as well for me (the super-saturated 'fantasy' technique combined with unlikeable to me romantic interest hurt the story).

And if Carver doesn't let Sam be the driving force for at least getting to Dean to try and rescue him (Dean may or may not take more agency in the actual "save"), I'll print out this post and eat it on youtube for you all to see. :)

DittyDotDot · July 22, 2014

I'm not sure that Jared liking them is really the best argument to sway me to thinking they work well...he also liked the whole Gadreel storyline, whereas for me...not so much--I'm funny that way about things and probably why I never jumped off a bridge because my friends told me I should.

Yes, flashbacks can be used and used well--in the case of The Sixth Sense (that's the name of that movie), they weren't being shown as flashbacks though--the only reason the payoff works in the end is because they didn't overly telegraph them as flashbacks to begin with--and even though I figured out the guy was dead in the first 10 minutes of the movie, it didn't diminish the payoff for me at the end. Another good use of flashbacks for me was on Lost, since they were supposed to be in a purgatory-like place and reflecting on their lives, plus they actually told us important information about the characters so we could understand them. Those are anomalies for me though. Supernatural tends to use them in the most basic and simplistic way to ignore the story at hand because they don't know how to get themselves out of a corner they wrote themselves into--adding on time jumps just makes it worse, IMO, especially since they never like to stay consistent with those time jumps later. It's not that I wanted to see more of Purgatory in S8, I wanted to see how the characters got to the point they did, in-fact I didn't really care for the Purgatory flashbacks nor did they tell me much of anything I didn't already know--I could have lived without all the flashbacks in S8 and followed the story just fine, if not better and probably would have liked the end story better.

This is where the quality thing I was referring to earlier comes into play, it's not so much that they continue to use flashbacks and time jumps, but they don't have a track record for using them well in the past, so I don't have faith that they will in the future either. I could be wrong here and I will be overjoyed to be so, but at this juncture, that's how it makes me feel.

7kstar · July 22, 2014

I LOVED that episode. I'd be fine if Dean got a version of this. Although without the William.Shatner. School. Of. Acting. (I do love Kirk, BTW, cheese and all... I could wax poetic about him for hours).

Jared seems to like flashbacks as a story-telling device. I don't think you can say flashbacks are by default poor story-telling. It's a mechanism. Sometimes it works well, sometimes not so much. I'm thinking "I see dead people" (Haley Joe....what the hell was that movie called???) Anyway, if memory serves, that used flashbacks for the big reveal at the end and it was most excellent IMO.

So MMV on flashbacks. I know in S8 I wanted MORE Purgatory flashbacks. And I had no problem with them teasing out Dean's story that way. Sam's story, OTOH, didn't go over as well for me (the super-saturated 'fantasy' technique combined with unlikeable to me romantic interest hurt the story).

Jensen is NOT a William Shatner but that is because he is more of a stage actor than a film actor. Jensen understand the difference. I do love Kirk and well to be honest the acting styles have changed a lot since the 60's. I doubt many of the hits in the past would be loved today. Of course they only had a cardboard set...but yes I remember the hit of that ep even today and I hope they do something like that with Dean and maybe even Sam.

And if Carver doesn't let Sam be the driving force for at least getting to Dean to try and rescue him (Dean may or may not take more agency in the actual "save"), I'll print out this post and eat it on youtube for you all to see. :)

This. That's what made Dean interesting to me from day one. Once they introduced that Sammy had visions, I was immediately less interested in him. I always think it's a sign of weak and lazy writing to give your protagonist and hero a special power as a means of exploring their darkness. We all have darkness inside of us and we all have to struggle with it. I find it far more interesting and far more dark to watch someone really deal with his darkness rather than have a special power that makes him dark. but once it's gone they aren't dark anymore. It's a lazy writing trap that they got Dean stuck in right now, I just hope they can get him out of it.

I just can't put my trust in Carver anymore. I trusted him in S8 and was disappointed and was far more disappointed in what he gave us in S9. I'm not talking about Sam not looking for Dean, I'm talking about the overall quality of the show since he took over. I just feel like the show has moved from being a somewhat cleaver little nuanced and unique show to being like almost every other show out there. So, I'm sorry I just can't put my trust in him or the show anymore. That's not to say that I'm freaking out either. I had already concluded that they were going to do this with Dean and already made my peace with it. So no freaking out here, just disappointed, is all.

ETA: Flashbacks and time jumps are just a sign to me that the quality issues that have been dragging the show down for me will be continuing for another season. These are the things that make me pessimistic for now. It's not like they used these poor storytelling devices to their benefit in the past, not sure they can use them any better now.

Nothing wrong with being disappointed and wanting something stronger. I really think you have hit the nail on the head, the flashbacks for the love story just doesn't work well. Now the flashbacks for Dean and Benny's story did.

Everything I've read is that Sam will be actively looking and what I wonder if we won't see the things he is willing to do for family. Dean tells Sam in Season 1, the things I'm willing to do for you or Dad scares me. The Sam we saw in Mystery Spot was dark and scarey. Carver wrote that story and I think he's had an end in mind all along. It doesn't feel so much like oops that didn't work, get rid of the storyline. In fact I think they planned to take Dean darker when Jensen asked for some time off because it was being too much. The did rewrite on story and it didn't have the impact that the rumors had for Dean.

Sometimes I wonder how much us watching this live is the problem when I watched to catch up, I just didn't feel some of the stuff that some fans were complaining about. Carver does seem to stay his course regardless of fan complaints, so that tells me he has a something in mind that he thinks will fix this issue. I do wish they hadn't done flashbacks for this season because I think the impact might be more interesting if they didn't use it and now it's becoming old. During it for three seasons in a row is a drag, so I can share your complaint on that issue.

catrox14 · July 22, 2014

Until now, it appears. Carver's character assassination is complete. I'll watch, just to see how bad it gets, but if Carver is not very, very careful, he will have ruined the entire run of the show for me. I know myself -- when re-watching, I'll start to question every borderline decision Dean has made and I'll wonder if it's because some evil, some darkness, inside him compelled him

Demented Daisy. I could not agree with you more. This was precisely why I was so devastated with demon!Dean at all. I thought back when Carver was introducing Garth as a sympathetic monster and even Dean befriending Benny that Carver was trying to set up the entire "Monsters inside Sam and Dean" bullshit. Carver had a show already that examined that. \

Dean Winchester was the epitome of an imperfect human being trying to save humanity. That is all Dean ever cared about. Saving people, Hunting things, Family business. Remember that show, Carver? I assumed that was still the same show.

I do not care about the humanity of fucking Crowley. Destroying Dean to make me see that will not work. I hate Crowley because Crowley is a piece of trash and Crowley is the sole reason for Dean being a demon. So, no, Carver et al, I have no interest in examining Crowley's humanity because fuck that guy.

Blaming the victim, Carver? Really? Dean didn't read warning label because he was grieving and felt guilty about Sam and Kevin. If Carver is trying to say that Dean has always been evil then I call fucking shenanigans and it's the biggest most idiotic retcon in the history of this show.

I cannot wait for Comic Con goers to grill Carver about Demon Dean.

@SueB. Dean may have been an asshole at times but he never had a spot in his heart and soul that was evil or really wanted to do evil to anything other than monsters.

Dean tells Sam in Season 1, the things I'm willing to do for you or Dad scares me.

But that was always about Dean doing anything to save Sam or John not do demony things to innocents for EVIL. And we saw the price Dean paid for that willingness when he went to Hell to save a life. Demon!Dean 10 years later? Sorry but I can't buy that Carver had this end game all along.

Edited July 22, 2014 by catrox14

DittyDotDot · July 22, 2014

I really think you have hit the nail on the head, the flashbacks for the love story just doesn't work well. Now the flashbacks for Dean and Benny's story did.

I'm not sure I'm using words well today...I didn't care for any of the flashbacks in S8. Yeah, Purgatory had some action to it and Jensen was remarkable, but from a storytelling perspective they were a complete waste, IMO. Add on top the goofy treatments given to each one as a way to tell us dumb viewers they were flashbacks, well, lets just say I was underwhelmed with it ALL. I didn't have a problem with Sam not looking for Dean--I understood it and it actually made a certain amount of sense to me--but I did have a problem watching poorly executed flashbacks that did little-to-nothing to tell me something I didn't already know--same goes for Purgatory. If you omit ALL the flashbacks from the beginning of S8, the story stays exactly the same--Dean was killing in Purgatory while Sam was hiding from his grief. That's why I think of flashbacks on this show are very poor storytelling devices--I didn't mean to imply that as a rule of thumb for every show or story. And I didn't mean to imply that miles didn't vary either.

I really am sorry I can't get on the Trust-Carver-And-Company-Bandwagon, I really am.

catrox14 · July 22, 2014

I didn't like the flashbacks to tell Dean's Purgatory arc, I would have preferred a full episode. But I loved how they filmed it. I loved the desaturated way it was handled and I thought it worked for that other universe. But I am with you @DittyDotDot about not trusting Carver at all, but mine are for character reasons.

n fact I think they planned to take Dean darker when Jensen asked for some time off because it was being too much. The did rewrite on story and it didn't have the impact that the rumors had for Dean.

To what season are you referring here, @7kstar?

DittyDotDot · July 22, 2014

I think she was referring to S9--here I go talking out of turn again--Mother's Little Helper (I think that's the title of it) was an attempt to give Jensen some requested time off. I remember reading that the writer was complaining on twitter about having to rework the episode so Dean was light in it. I'm not sure they planned it to be darker necessarily. I think that they think Dean being a demon is probably as dark as it gets--I tend to disagree since it's not really Dean, but whatever.

ETA: @catrox14, I too have character reasons not to trust Carver, just that I chose to speak about the quality and follow through issues today. ;)

Edited July 22, 2014 by DittyDotDot

catrox14 · July 22, 2014

ut he never SAVED DEAN. I think everyone sees he needs to do this.

I feel like Carver is talking out of both sides of his ass. He's supposedly not in favor of the codependent brothers which is largely what many believe Sam was trying to do when he distanced himself from Dean in the Purge, stop the codependency. I want Sam to actually look for Dean and exhaust efforts to prove that yes he loves his brother, but to my mind, if Carver is really trying to give Dean some healthy separation from Sam and he puts him through this fucking demon shit only to have Sam save him, doesn't that undermine that no more codependent brothers thing? I want Dean to save himself.

ETA: Thanks @DittyDotDot. For a Dean lite episode that had quite a bit of Dean/Crowley. I bet that writer won't be complaining about having to rewrite again....

I wonder when Jensen learned Dean would be killed and turned into a demon? Could it have been as early as Mother's Little Helper?

Edited July 22, 2014 by catrox14

DittyDotDot · July 22, 2014

Those are questions I am always most interested in. I highly doubt he knew before he got the script for the finale...just a guess on my part, but it seems to me that they don't seem to get told much ahead of time. I remember once Jensen saying that when Kripke was running the show they would talk about the overall direction for the season at the beginning of the season, but never any specifics were handed out. I know that he didn't know about Dean going to Hell until he got the script for that. He spoke one time about how he kept getting scripts wondering if this would be the one that gets him out of it and as the season wore on he was getting a bit more worried for Dean because they hadn't found a way to save him (again not direct quotes and it's been a while so, just how I remember it.) Also, Jensen jokingly said at a con, maybe during S8, that they don't tell them anything because they would probably turn around and tell us. It was a cute moment.

That's a good question though, @catrox14, someone going to Comic Con or the Vancouver con should ask it.

Edited July 22, 2014 by DittyDotDot

7kstar · July 22, 2014

To what season are you referring here, 7kstar?

@catrox14 - I'm referring to season 9. The rumor which DIDN'T happen was that Dean would be much darker and he would deal with an addiction which involved Demons. I don't know whether giving the rumor will add more to the fire or not. They may make it part of this season but the ep had a very different description and suddenly it changed. What aired wasn't the description of what was suppose to air. I don't remember the name... but it was season 9. I can tell it but don't throw things at me if you hate it even more. It could be an idea that was never valid and has since been tossed down the drain.

Jensen always acts like he finds out just a bit before we do, but I'm not sure how much of that is really true. He requested time off when he read a script I believe. he had some days off as he was being drained by the negative emotions which I can totally relate. I've played some dark characters and it does drain your energy so I greatly respect his boundaries and that he set them.

Season 8 isn't my favorite but this show has always had many missed opportunities and I can't say that one showrunner is the worst of them all.

I will say it is making the last few days interesting to read different points of views. It's certainly more fun to have something to read and react to but MY expectations are low so I can't be that disappointed. But I can support the excitement they have in creating this season. I don't always agree with Jared's point of view as I don't think he did as great of a job as he likes to think he did, but he really has improved over the years too.

Edited July 22, 2014 by 7kstar

catrox14 · July 22, 2014

Oh I meant I wonder when he got the script for the finale. Do they get the scripts 2 or 3 episodes ahead of what they are currently filming or do they get it like the week before they film the most current episode? Since Jensen is directing the 3rd episode this season before the first two are filmed, I would think he would have seen the scripts for the first two episodes to help him with the directing of the 3rd episode to keep continuity and what not. But I really don't know. Just things I wonder about.

he rumor which DIDN'T happen was that Dean would be much darker and he would deal with an addiction which involved Demons.

Did it involve Dean drinking demon blood or gaining demon qualities by screwing a demon? That's about the only thing that I would be like WTF? Do tell...

So back to s10 spoilers. I just remembered something. I was thinking bout King of the Damned and Sam's line about "The lore says if you change even one thing it can change EVERYTHING". I have foolishly decided that in order for me to not quit the show, pending Demon!Dean's ultimate resolution and our!Dean's fate, I will hang my hat on our!Dean coming back via a time reset. I know, I know, I said I didn't want that but now I do. Because honest to Gods, as much as I love this show, I really am not sure I'll be able to handle a Dean that has lost his humanity completely and forever and that is seemingly being retcon'd back to being evil from the get go.

Edited July 22, 2014 by catrox14

DittyDotDot · July 22, 2014

Oh I meant I wonder when he got the script for the finale. Do they get the scripts 2 or 3 episodes ahead of what they are currently filming or do they get it like the week before they film the most current episode? Since Jensen is directing the 3rd episode this season before the first two are filmed, I would think he would have seen the scripts for the first two episodes to help him with the directing of the 3rd episode to keep continuity and what not. But I really don't know. Just things I wonder about.

The writer's return back to work usually in late may or early June, so they have a month or so before the production team comes back to work. As the season wears on I think they get closer and closer together on their scheduling. So, it sounds to me like early in the season they get scripts earlier, but as the season wears on I think it gets later and later. I'm thinking that the actors are probably only getting scripts maybe an episode before production...again, just a guess on my part.

But seriously, these would be really good questions to ask at a con...anyone planning on attending one soon?

oliverwendell · July 22, 2014

I came back from vacation to oodles of new posts in the Spoiler section! Imagine my delight!!

I'm actually rather intrigued by the hints Carver dropped in his TVLine interview about Dean retaining some self-awareness during his demon turn. To me it has the potential to make the storyline far more interesting than its most obvious parallel, the Soulless Sam storyline. With Soulless Sam, I thought the writers missed a golden opportunity to examine the Sam character from the inside out. Instead of looking at Sam's id and his superego and how they fit together to make a complex (but overall good) person, they wrote Soulless Sam as a different character entirely, thereby letting Sam off the hook for everything Soulless Sam did just as completely as if Sam were possessed. Heck, Sam didn't even remember anything Soulless Sam had done! So even though Sam blamed himself for everything Soulless Sam did, this never went anywhere as the audience was told through Dean and Bobby and even Cas that Sam was just indulging in Patented Winchester Self-flagellating Angst and that really, none of it was his fault.

By contrast, what I'm gathering from Carver is that Dean's soul has been twisted into a demon soul just as if he'd been tortured in Hell for however many millenia it would have taken to do that but that unlike the more traditional demon-making route the way the Mark of Cain demonizes its bearer leaves a little bit of the soul intact. Just enough to make him feel conflicted about what he's doing and maybe, just maybe, exercise enough free will to control himself. Which fits with the original Cain character, who alone among all demons was able to "retire" from behaving like a demon. I think this opens up some neat storytelling opportunities for Dean. First, it creates the possibility that Dean could use that modicum of free will to save himself or at least willingly cooperate in whatever spell or ritual Sam does to save him. Second, it presents the character with the opportunity for regret and self-examination when it's all over, because he'll quite correctly wonder whether he could have controlled himself or saved himself sooner than he did. I know this could turn into yet more Patented Winchester Self-flagellating Angst if not handled well, but I'm hoping Carver will actually subvert the trope and have Dean forgive himself for once, thereby having a major character breakthrough.

Wait. Did I just write "major character breakthrough" in a Supernatural post? Clearly, I'm still in my Vacation Happy Place. Give me a day or two and I'll be a raging cynic once again.

Edited July 22, 2014 by fourteenwords

Demented Daisy · July 22, 2014

Put me in the "not liking flashbacks" camp. Mainly because they impede the narrative flow, IMO. The episode is telling the story, then someone gets all pensive and brooding and -- BAM! -- flashback. The audience is taken out of the current story, thrown into another, then back to the first. All too often, I felt that the flashback didn't impact the current story and, as a result, was unnecessary.

The other side of that coin was Dean's Hell flashes. Those were effective to me because they were closer to PTSD flashbacks. And weren't truly flashbacks. Anyway....

Re: the codependency. In my perfect world, instead of becoming a demon, Dean's darkness would have been explored through his massive PTSD. Sam would have convinced Dean that he was endangering those around him and he would be a better help to everyone if he stayed in the bunker, doing research or whatever. Dean would have been vehemently against the idea, but after a particularly reckless hunt, he could have finally agreed to stay at the LoL. Then he could have dealt with his demons on his own (so to speak) thus saving himself.

Sam and Dean would have gotten time apart, Jared and Jensen could have gotten some time off over several episodes, and the show could have even brought in other hunters to help Sam. (I feel that they need to reestablish their hunters network.)

But this is not my perfect world. I agree with @DittyDotDot that making Dean a demon was the easy way out.

Aeryn13 · July 22, 2014

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoz5UthLPAE&feature=youtu.be

An interview with Jensen on the matter of Demon!Dean. I don`t know this kinda makes it sound like demon Dean won`t exactly be hunting and skinning puppies and adorable toddlers. Maybe he`ll still "hunt", just other demons/monsters etc.

The most I can gather from it is that he will be seriously mean and an "asshole". And very devil-may-care. But it doesn`t sound like much of an angst-fest will follow even. Jensen said that demon Dean won`t do stuff that make him feel like all good things have been erased. I take that to mean no serious moral lines will be crossed. We`ll see.

On the matter of flashbacks, I tend to love them if done well. Highlander fan here though they made narrative sense there. But telling the stories in flashbacks in Season 8 was just a lame cop-out because they were too chicken-shit to separate the brothers back then.

Here, I don`t know. Time jumps can be iffy but if they are done, then I assume that everything that was "jumped" wasn`t important enough to linger there so don`t bother me with freaking flashbacks. Do a montage or non-linear storytellng or whatnot but "oh, wait, you might have wanted to see this scene, too, huh?" is silly IMO.

I`m just interested in how Dean`s story and character will be handled. As a demon and afterwards. I want growth and if demonhood helps him finally overcome his baggage, then fine.

oliverwendell · July 22, 2014

Another Carver interview, this one with Zap2It: http://www.spoilertv.com/2014/07/supernatural-season-10-jeremy-carver.html

The most interesting tidbit here is about the other person hunting Dean: it's a guy named Cole, and he's someone from Dean's past who's hunting him for reasons completely unrelated to the Mark of Cain stuff. He has "strong hunter-like skills" but is not a hunter and has no idea about the existence of monsters. He will be stunned to find that the person he's been hunting is not human. Apparently the role has already been cast, but they're not announcing the name of the actor.

Hmm....bounty hunter? Police officer/FBI agent? Private investigator?

Demented Daisy · July 22, 2014

Please do not tell me that Dean got a woman pregnant once-upon-a-time and her brother has been searching for Dean all this time.

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