Robert Goren: Batshit Crazy Or Merely Eccentric Badass?

[WendyCR72]

It was a little odd that he never had a romantic encounter, interest or even entertained the thought of a relationship.

 

I get where you're coming from, but I'm not sure I completely agree. At least Early Bobby (say...until S4 or so) talked about his ex Lois, who was into cats and mentioned a few other such drops about a "girlfriend". Bobby was strange but fairly normal early on. He DID LOVE his job, but he seemed together.

 

Then came Warren Leight and Bobby's issues were out the yin yang, and yeah, he was alone. But he did seem to have a flirtation with Leslie LeZard (what a name) before the truth was out. And while Alex was widowed, she didn't have a relationship, either, minus batshit cray-cray Kevin Mulrooney. No wonder she stayed single. CI didn't really focus on that aspect, and it was fine.

 

But after Bobby's spiral, it was interesting to note that Bobby's trust issues and lack of a lasting relationship made its way to therapy with Paula Gyson and, how I interpreted it, he wanted it, hence asking Dr. Gyson if it was too late for him. (Then there was the whole controversial line of questioning about Alex.)

 

But I'll concede that Bobby got a rush from the job, the hunt of the perps, and going in for the kill. At least, again, early on. After S6, he seemed to lose the fire (and regained some humor/joy/fondness for the job again in S10, IMO).

Edited June 29, 2014 by WendyR72

[cooksdelight]

There was one brief moment that Eames almost made a connection with a guy. The time when they had a police officer who was also a deaf interpreter. They were having coffee, then along comes Ross and the guy gets up and leaves.

[WendyCR72]

I thought about Peter the Interpreter after my post. He seemed to be Eames' LeZard, so to speak. A hint of a flirtation that ultimately went nowhere.

 

As I said, CI seemed to not go heavily into romance or even really bring up the notion until CI's last season, which is how it should be. IMO, anyway!

[BigDfromLA]

I never saw the episode with Lesile LeZard. What season/episode number was that? I would be interested in seeing that.

[WendyCR72]

Season 7, Episode 3, "Smile".

[cooksdelight]

What about the woman who was obsessed with her ex and then Bobby, the episode where Fisher Stevens killed himself on the ferry boat? That woman was creepy as hell. And I think she started to get to Bobby just a tad.

[WendyCR72]

Yes, I forgot her! And yeah, that was treading towards...some sort of flirtation. A sick and twisted one, to be sure, but yeah. And I forget what S4 episode it was (Ion ran many), but Bobby had another line about a former girlfriend in one of those, too.

 

Clearly those in charge early on had no issues with Bobby being able to attract women, even if he didn't keep them!

 

And as for the woman in the Fisher Stevens episode, I'm glad Bobby seemed to snap out of it by the end.

[GHScorpiosRule]

Season 7, Episode 3, "Smile".

 

Oh GAG. Not that HACK Amy HAcker!

 

I think Bobby was sort of kind of interested even though he didn't want to be in Susan, the killer in "Semi-Detached", played by Francie Swift.

 

This is the one with Fisher Stevens.

Edited July 1, 2014 by GHScorpiosRule

[WendyCR72]

Thus proving that as great a cop as Bobby was, he DID have issues and therapy wasn't uncalled for. Hee. (Even if the scenes themselves seemed...underwhelming...at times. Half the stuff they discussed, we already knew!)

[cooksdelight]

I kept waiting for Julia Ormond to break into the French accent she used in Mad Men and tell Bobby she wanted to fuck his brains out. 

 

OK, I'm shallow.....

[WendyCR72]

Never saw Julia Ormond on Mad Men, but I do recall she was the lead in the 1995 remake of Sabrina, which originally, of course, starred Audrey Hepburn.

[cooksdelight]

She was in season 5 of MM, and the scene that is still seared in my brain is her giving Roger a blowjob when Don's daughter opens the door and see them. Then Julia comes back to the table at the ball they are attending like nothing happened.

[WendyCR72]

She was in season 5 of MM, and the scene that is still seared in my brain is her giving Roger a blowjob when Don's daughter opens the door and see them. Then Julia comes back to the table at the ball they are attending like nothing happened.

 

Well, okay then! (I've never watched Mad Men, but based on recaps of it or whatever, it sounds...sadly typical.)

 

As I said before, I never minded Paula Gyson, per se, and I do think Goren benefited from therapy. But I still say Olivet or Skoda (past therapists in the franchise) could have worked just as well. No slight to Carolyn McCormick, since Olivet was great, but I think I would have loved to see J.K. Simmons' Skoda interact with Goren.

 

And this will sound strange, but I'm sort of glad the show ended where it did with Bobby's therapy. Becoming more even-keeled in real life is terrific, but I wouldn't have wanted Bobby to lose his...I don't know how to put it...offbeat view of things, I guess...completely. It made him, him.

[turbogirlnyc]

Goren is/was Criminal Intent, in my humble opinion.

[WendyCR72]

Welcome, @turbogirlnyc !  :-)  We have people here who have liked or loved most of the CI cast, so I can't and won't speak for them. But...I do agree with you.  :-)  But I'd add Eames, too. She was yin to Goren's yang!

[rujasu]

I always preferred Logan, but in terms of who "is" CI, it's hard to say anyone other than Goren.  Outside of the forgettable Season 9, it was always "The Goren Show" (as Deakins would say) unlike the more ensemble nature of the other L&O shows.

[WendyCR72]

I always preferred Logan, but in terms of who "is" CI, it's hard to say anyone other than Goren.  Outside of the forgettable Season 9, it was always "The Goren Show" (as Deakins would say) unlike the more ensemble nature of the other L&O shows.

 

The thing is, I don't think it was just CI of the L&O franchise who had a linchpin member. Early on in their runs, perhaps the other L&O shows were an ensemble - and the Mothership maybe still was, before and after, but I bet when people think of said Mothership, Lennie Briscoe immediately comes to mind, even with other talented cast members. He did seem to become its "face".

 

And then there's SVU. Ensemble early on? Certainly. But I doubt anyone could deny the show could now be classified as the Torture Olivia Benson Hour. So she is now the "face" of SVU, too!

[rujasu]

It's not just a matter of "most regognizable person on the show."  Goren WAS the show.  I like Eames and all, but she was clearly second fiddle to Goren.  Was there ever once a case where Eames had a significant role in solving the case?  I can't think of one.  She was the Watson to Goren's Holmes.

 

Mothership was always an ensemble show, even during the Briscoe years.  Yes, he was the most recognizable character, but his partner wasn't just tagging along for the ride.  You didn't see Briscoe solving the whole case while his junior partner stood around waiting for someone to put a pair of handcuffs on.  And of course, 30 minutes into the show he disappeared to make way for Jack McCoy.  As beloved as Briscoe was, over the course of the show, McCoy got more screen time, and I would argue more spotlight as the second half of the show tended to revolve around the EADA whereas the detective work was more of an even partnership.  But either way, you had each team getting 30 minutes, so you didn't have a single character who was in nearly every scene.

 

SVU was generally centered around Benson and Stabler up until Chris Meloni left the show recently, but you still had a second team of detectives who would get a few scenes to themselves, plus an ADA who would actually appear in court from time to time.  And Benson/Stabler was a very equal partnership all along, with Stabler being arguably the "star" during most of that period.

 

Again, I like Eames.  Erbe does a fine job portraying her and the character is simple but effective.  Courtney B. Vance is a fantastic actor and the character of Carver is an interesting one, but we can probably count on one hand the number of times he does something other than ask Goren for more evidence.  Goren is the undisputed main character in the episodes where he appears (which is of course the vast majority of the show's episodes).  That's not a bad thing necessarily, but it's quite different from other L&O shows.

[WendyCR72]

I understand, @rujasu . By design, though, I guess it was unavoidable since the Goren character did have a military/profiling background (which he used a lot) and the show was about getting into the heads of the perps, so I think just by concept, that CI, unlike the other two L&O shows, was always more about the characters than the cases. And I think it was about Goren, most of all, because of maybe who was cast. I think the show was always meant as a VDO vehicle. Outside things altered that later on, but I think that was always the intent (pardon the pun there!). A modern Sherlock Holmes with his Watson in the capable Alex Eames.

 

But that's just my take!

[FormerMod-a1]

So, I've been having fun (re)finding some of my favorite pics of this man.

 

 

 

[WendyCR72]

I knew I liked you, @aquarian1 . This is Christmas in July!  :-)))  Thanks for these!

 

ETA: Pic #3 for THE WIN! (But they are all great!)

[BizBuzz]

O

M

G

 

I am so happy this is the last thread I am looking at tonight, sweet dreams for me!!!

[FormerMod-a1]

OK, a few more...

 

 

 

[WendyCR72]

Ooh, more! VDO AND a puppy? Awww. And the rest are awesome. The third one here is pretty damned great, too!

[GHScorpiosRule]

Looktt Bobby, giving the 'lean' to that adorable puppy! Wonder what he or she did?

[GHScorpiosRule]

So that you're not accused of favoritism, @aquarian1 , I 'spect some for me to swoon over. Not of Bobby, but Mike, over in the mothership thread. Otherwise, I'm going to think you're biased. That's allowed when you're wearing your poster hat...buuuuut, as a moderator, well...you know...

[FormerMod-a1]

I was thinking the same thing, GH.  Just been busy with my day job a bit.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I was thinking the same thing, GH.  Just been busy with my day job a bit.

 

I hear ya! @WendyCR72 can tell you how I was slammed all of May, June and most of July! No hurry.

[BizBuzz]

So that you're not accused of favoritism, @aquarian1 , I 'spect some for me to swoon over. Not of Bobby, but Mike, over in the mothership thread. Otherwise, I'm going to think you're biased. That's allowed when you're wearing your poster hat...buuuuut, as a moderator, well...you know...

 

@aquarian1 is going to be hard pressed to find something that can top bobby and a puppy ... so bobby wins.

[GHScorpiosRule]

@aquarian1 is going to be hard pressed to find something that can top bobby and a puppy ... so bobby wins.

 

Oh, I don't know....

[BizBuzz]

I guess the proof will be in the pudding ...

[FormerMod-a1]

I think I'll be hard pressed to find a picture of either of them in a vat of pudding.  They keep those kinds of pics private, usually.

[WendyCR72]

I think I'll be hard pressed to find a picture of either of them in a vat of pudding.  They keep those kinds of pics private, usually.

 

If anyone can find those, however, I bet it would be you, @aquarian1 .  :-)

[turbogirlnyc]

I understand, @rujasu . By design, though, I guess it was unavoidable since the Goren character did have a military/profiling background (which he used a lot) and the show was about getting into the heads of the perps, so I think just by concept, that CI, unlike the other two L&O shows, was always more about the characters than the cases. And I think it was about Goren, most of all, because of maybe who was cast. I think the show was always meant as a VDO vehicle. Outside things altered that later on, but I think that was always the intent (pardon the pun there!). A modern Sherlock Holmes with his Watson in the capable Alex Eames.

 

But that's just my take!

Absolutely love the first pic. Classic Goren shifting his head from one side of Huntington to another during interrogation. Good times

 

So, I've been having fun (re)finding some of my favorite pics of this man.

 

 

 

Absolutely love that first picture! Goren shifting his head to the right and left of Mr. Harrington during questioning... Classic. I first saw Vincent D'Onofrio in a film called Feeling Minnesota with Cameron Diaz and Keanu Reeves. I've been a huge fan ever since.

I'm so sorry about my response showing up in the previous post. Obviously, I need to read up on responding with quotes on this website.

Edited August 4, 2014 by turbogirlnyc

[WendyCR72]

Welcome, @turbogirlnyc! :-)  Needless to say, you have great taste! Enjoy it here!

[turbogirlnyc]

Thanks Wendy!

Edited August 4, 2014 by turbogirlnyc

[WendyCR72]

You're doing fine with things, @turbogirlnyc . It'll get easier as time goes on. But if you have questions, that's what I'm here for!

[WendyCR72]

Not Bobby, but it is VDO related, so...

 

I saw his Homicide: Life On The Street appearance from 1998 or so where his character, John Lange, is pushed into the oncoming subway and he is pinned between the railing or whatever. And he will die once he is removed because of the mechanism of his injuries. Never knew this episode (aptly titled "The Subway", S6E7) won a Peabody Award (saw this info in the episode description), but Andre Braugher and VDO were great with the give and take. It was one heck of an episode.

 

It has commentary, but I didn't watch the episode with it, but maybe I will do that soon.

 

So if you can ever see it, I recommend the episode.

 

(With the Robin Williams tragedy, I tracked down his HLOTS episode, too, with a young Jake Gyllenhall as his son; I have yet to watch this one, though.)

[WendyCR72]

Hmm. Maybe, @Chattygal! But Bobby always loved his puzzles, so outside of Eames, perhaps he'd be too wrapped up in solving those puzzles to notice any incompetence.  :-)

[WendyCR72]

Maybe he could solve the puzzle of how they earned detective badges to begin with :)

 

Hee. Touché!

[candall]

Goren is/was Criminal Intent, in my humble opinion.

I'm with you on this.

 

I remember reading, at the time, that the alternating Logan episodes were introduced because VDO was exhausted from Goren being so central to the dialogue-heavy show.  They needed to lighten his load and paring down the character's screentime wasn't a viable option.  I was bummed about my Goren fix turning intermittent, ha, but it was a good solution.  I'm so glad they didn't dilute the whole thing with big chunks of Special Forces Units positioning themselves or other time fillers.

 

(Sidenote:  love the VDO/puppy shot!  The puppy even has a corresponding Goren head slant thing going on.  Tooooo cute!)

Edited August 30, 2014 by candall

[aradia22]

I used to love Criminal Intent but somehow I never got around to the therapy episodes. Note to self, I may have to do a Law and Order rewatch project. It was so strange to watch 2-3 of those episodes with Julia Ormond. First of all, it's a fairly quiet performance, which suits the part, but so much better than she is in Witches of East End. Anyway, it doesn't feel totally genuine to me. It's like they're taking a page from Monk or something and the therapy (and the flashbacks) aren't well integrated into the show. I got the impression he was supposed to be eccentric but kind of had it all together. And then at some point they sent him over the deep end and whoosh there was a deluge of backstory. I think other shows manage it a little better because they have more levity but CI is more about quips and banter than real humor. I don't hate it but I also don't feel like this was all planned from the beginning.

[WendyCR72]

And then at some point they sent him over the deep end and whoosh there was a deluge of backstory. I think other shows manage it a little better because they have more levity but CI is more about quips and banter than real humor. I don't hate it but I also don't feel like this was all planned from the beginning.

 

I think that simply came down to the exit of Rene Balcer and Warren Leight moving up to EP. Leight likes the melodrama and agony. If you need more proof, check out Olivia Benson's constant torture on SVU currently. Leight is the show runner there now.

[aradia22]

 

I think that simply came down to the exit of Rene Balcer and Warren Leight moving up to EP. Leight likes the melodrama and agony. If you need more proof, check out Olivia Benson's constant torture on SVU currently. Leight is the show runner there now.

Note to self: Never watch a show where Warren Leight is EP.

[turbogirlnyc]

I used to love Criminal Intent but somehow I never got around to the therapy episodes. Note to self, I may have to do a Law and Order rewatch project. It was so strange to watch 2-3 of those episodes with Julia Ormond. First of all, it's a fairly quiet performance, which suits the part, but so much better than she is in Witches of East End. Anyway, it doesn't feel totally genuine to me. It's like they're taking a page from Monk or something and the therapy (and the flashbacks) aren't well integrated into the show. I got the impression he was supposed to be eccentric but kind of had it all together. And then at some point they sent him over the deep end and whoosh there was a deluge of backstory. I think other shows manage it a little better because they have more levity but CI is more about quips and banter than real humor. I don't hate it but I also don't feel like this was all planned from the beginning.

 

I understand completely. I wish they'd never delved deeper into the personal lives of the detectives. I didn't mind Robert's brother and mother but when they started to go deeper, it just made a mess. When the show began I thought it worked so well because it didn't go beyond the characters doing their job. I'm putting it lightly when I say I'm no fan of SVU and that's one of the main reasons.

[GHScorpiosRule]

I used to love Criminal Intent but somehow I never got around to the therapy episodes. Note to self, I may have to do a Law and Order rewatch project. It was so strange to watch 2-3 of those episodes with Julia Ormond. First of all, it's a fairly quiet performance, which suits the part, but so much better than she is in Witches of East End. Anyway, it doesn't feel totally genuine to me. It's like they're taking a page from Monk or something and the therapy (and the flashbacks) aren't well integrated into the show. I got the impression he was supposed to be eccentric but kind of had it all together. And then at some point they sent him over the deep end and whoosh there was a deluge of backstory. I think other shows manage it a little better because they have more levity but CI is more about quips and banter than real humor. I don't hate it but I also don't feel like this was all planned from the beginning.

 

 

 

I understand completely. I wish they'd never delved deeper into the personal lives of the detectives. I didn't mind Robert's brother and mother but when they started to go deeper, it just made a mess. When the show began I thought it worked so well because it didn't go beyond the characters doing their job. I'm putting it lightly when I say I'm no fan of SVU and that's one of the main reasons.

 

And this is why the mothership remains my favorite of all the franchises. Whatever insights we got into the personal lives of the DAs, ADAs, cops, didn't take over the show.

[WendyCR72]

And this is why the mothership remains my favorite of all the franchises. Whatever insights we got into the personal lives of the DAs, ADAs, cops, didn't take over the show.

 

I love the Mothership, but I'm NOT opposed to personal mixed with professional PROVIDED the latter doesn't suck the air out. And I'll say, the background Bobby was given was a bit unusual, so I wasn't opposed to a glimpse of his life with his family. But it just seemed like Leight didn't know when to say when. (And I know it has been said VDO was on board, and he may have been. But solely judging his tired appearance later, I don't even think he expected this to go as low as it did. In the end, anyway, the buck stops at the suits.)

 

I was glad that Waylon Green pulled back from all of this once S8 rolled around. And while I do think the therapy in S10 was rather surface, at times redundant (as some of what was discussed, we already knew!), and strangely placed, I do think it was necessary after S6 and S7. The show DID go there, so cleanup seemed fitting. And I liked that Chris Brancato (S10 EP) seemed to go back to earlier days, as I have said, between Bobby consulting friends again (Patti Smith's professor character in "Icarus", the mention of Lewis in therapy), Bobby smiled and laughed a bit again, and seemed engaged again during the denouements, and even character callbacks, with the aforementioned Lewis and the computer tech guy in "To The Boy in the Blue Knit Cap". I'm not 100% positive, but I think that guy MAY HAVE been the very same tech back in S1 in "The Third Horseman"! If so, kind of a cool touch.

 

And while I NEVER will defend Leight, I think CI was always meant to be different from the Mothership and SVU, as the focus was on Goren (and lesser, Eames) rather than the cases. The whole premise was how the cops look into the heads of those they investigate. And with a sort of unique character like Goren, perhaps seeing what made HIM tick was inevitable.

 

I think the personal problems on SVU, however, were OTT. That show was meant to highlight sexual cases and wasn't originally based on any one cop. It certainly became like that, but that wasn't the premise at the start.

 

But it's just my take alone.  :-)

[GHScorpiosRule]

I don't think we'll agree on the whatsitz...whositz with respect to the character of the destruction of Bobby Goren...who was smart, quirky, passionate...even though we sort of knew about his mother and brother.

 

Like a certain Guzasshole and the current douchecanoeratbastardfuckwit, Leight absolutely decimated the Bobby Goren I'd come to know and love.  Even though Green and Branco tried to bring him back, and yes, even though D'Onofrio liked the path that that hack took him down, Bobby was just never the same. He no longer could get into the head of witnesses or perps without stuttering...pausing, speaking hesitantly...could not look them straight in the face, or play them. And that...was and continues to be so sad.

 

On a cheerier note, Wendykins, here's Your Vincent doing the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge with his son! (I've got to believe he looks the way he does for an upcoming movie...I thought I'd read he'd be playing King Pin or something...)

 

[WendyCR72]

Yep, he's the Kingpin for some role. Still...all that said, it's really cool he did the challenge.  :-)

[GHScorpiosRule]

Yep, he's the Kingpin for some role. Still...all that said, it's really cool he did the challenge.  :-)

 

Yeah, I can't recall if it's for the next Spiderman movie or that horrid Fantastic Four one.