TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[Padma]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 7:09 PM, voiceover said:

Any reax to Michael Feinstein as guest host?  

I know he & Robert are friends.  So I feel like I should like him better than I do.  And I thought one of you guys could talk me into it! 

I was a little worried that Feinstein would be a disappointment when I finally saw him. Of course I appreciate all he's done  musically, and esp. his humble devotion to Oscar Hammerstein for so many years. But I wasn't sure how he'd be as a host as I could imagine he might overdo the earnestness, smile too much and kind of "force the charm".

So I was very pleased to see him introduce The Dark Corner just now on On Demand (how does Clifton Webb manage to improve every movie he's in?) and feel he did a very good job with it. In fact, I think he's just become my favorite of the Robert stand-ins. You could see he'd worked on speaking less emphatically, less emotionally, smiling less, and figuring out how to make the teleprompter seem invisible, as if he was just talking to us (even trying momentarily to "remember" something.) I don't know how many of these intros he's done, but it was a good script (his, not the movie's) and I'd be glad to see him host another one.

I like the bus series idea, although I haven't seen all of the ones mentioned. "If It's Tuesday, This Must Be Belgium" would be my addition for a little light tour bus fun, plus lots of familiar faces for those of us who remember 80s television stars.

Edited August 8, 2016 by Padma

[bmoore4026]

19 hours ago, voiceover said:

So I dragged myself to Wednesday's big screen, after-workday showing of GWTW, and I was as glad as I knew I would be for forcing it on myself.  I'd actually seen it in a theater in the mid-80s, during the "classic cinema movie theater" phase that swept the country (pre-TCM) (and how I'd love to see it come back!!  I'd support both!).  It was the first of countless times since, and though I enjoyed it, I didn't love it as I do know, nor did I have the appreciation for classic cinema that the years and Robert O have given me.

One of the first visuals that struck me as a blow to the solar plexus was -- believe it or not -- Thomas Mitchell (or Thomas Mitchell's stunt double) on his stallion, galloping across the fields of Tara.  DAMN.  Just...stunning.  Clark Gable is even more gorgeous when he's three stories high, and Vivien Leigh is perfection.  Even while playing one of the most unlikeable lead characters in film history.

Now, I love Hattie in this film, and I have no argument about that Oscar, but I must disagree with your characterization of Melanie's character, and De Havilland's performance.  As Olivia plays her, Melanie is the kindest, gentlest, most loving & forgiving character in the movie, but she's no simpering drip.  Rhett's got her measure: that she's so honorable and fine that she can simply not conceive of a lack of honor in the ones she loves.  And while he accuses Scarlett of being contemptuous of Mellie for that reason (he may as well have broken the 4th wall & said it to many moviegoers), I believe Scarlett when she insists that she does "love [her], really!"  Because the movie, IMO, is built on the bones of the friendship between those two women.  Because the movie ends when Melanie dies.  This is a theory I floated back in the TWoP days of this thread (though I never claimed to have been the author of that thought).

One of my favorite moments in the movie happens right after Scarlett shoots the Yankee deserter.  She looks up, and there's Melanie, armed with Charles's sword, ready to back up her best friend.  Then she's quick enough to run to the window right after and dissemble to the worried family, forcing an admiring Scarlett to admit, "What a cool liar you are, Mellie!"  She also suggests that they look through the dead man's pockets & knapsack for money (Scarlett: "..just ashamed I didn't think of that myself!").  Are these the actions of a shallow simp?

And I love her "Buck up!" speech to Rhett, as he weeps with guilt over a dangerously ill Scarlett.  She quietly assures him that Scarlett DOES love him ("...much more than she knows!") -- and because Melanie says it, we believe it, too. 

IMO, it's Hattie's dead-on, devastating delivery of -- what is otherwise exposition -- after Bonnie's accident that tips the Oscar scales finally and firmly in her favor.  But without the mirror of a loving and loyal Melanie, via De Havilland, Scarlett's (and Leigh's) brilliance wouldn't shine as bright.

True.  Never considered any of that.

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, Padma said:

I was a little worried that Feinstein would be a disappointment when I finally saw him. Of course I appreciate all he's done  musically, and esp. his humble devotion to Oscar Hammerstein for so many years.

Unless there was a Hammerstein period that I haven't heard of (could be), wasn't that Ira Gershwin, whose personal (and familial) archivist he was for several years?

[Charlie Baker]

I watched Red Dust for the first time in a long time, and it is thoroughly enjoyable.  The performances of and chemistry among Gable, Harlow, and Astor feel timeless.

[Milburn Stone]

11 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Unless there was a Hammerstein period that I haven't heard of (could be), wasn't that Ira Gershwin, whose personal (and familial) archivist he was for several years?

You're correct. No Hammerstein period.

Sometime soon after the end of the Ira years (it was 1986, as I recall) I had the good fortune to be staying at the Mondrian hotel in West Hollywood for about six weeks on a commercial shoot. Feinstein was the anonymous pianist in the bar. Every evening I and my compadres would meet down there to "process" the day and plan for the next one. But I'd get there about an hour before the rest of them, because the pianist (whoever he was) was extraordinary and I knew it. Eventually he said his name and I made note of it. He and I would play "stump the band" because I was probably the only person ever in there who could identify his repertoire from the first notes of the obscure introductory verses, or give him a challenge, which he always met. (And when you're the only guy in the bar, there's no great inhibition against talking to the piano player.) His playing and singing brought the repertoire to life. One early evening Liza Minnelli was there, sitting on the piano bench singing with him, with me and the bartender as the audience.

[Rinaldo]

He and Liza do the Band Wagon DVD commentary together.

I've spoken to him a couple of times -- after special Gershwin concerts at the Library of Congress, produced by a friend so I had "access" to the reception afterward. He was very pleasant, though I'm always too shy at such things to start a real conversation (which I now realize he might have enjoyed; in comparison to inanities the wealthy donor-guests had to offer, I at least knew my obscure Gershwin).

[Padma]

20 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Unless there was a Hammerstein period that I haven't heard of (could be), wasn't that Ira Gershwin, whose personal (and familial) archivist he was for several years?

Yikes! Of course I meant Ira Gershwin! Thanks for the kindly worded correction!

If I ever meet Michael Feinstein, I really want to suggest that he add Noel Coward to his composer-songbook CDs (and, hopefully, his performance repertoire).  It doesn't need to all be American, and in addition to keeping attention on "older composers", he'd have that range he seems to enjoy (in performance), too, --romance, wistful sadness and humor.

[HelenBaby]

12 hours ago, Charlie Baker said:

I watched Red Dust for the first time in a long time, and it is thoroughly enjoyable.  The performances of and chemistry among Gable, Harlow, and Astor feel timeless.

It is a good film. What I never really realized until last night is that Harlow was 21 when she made that movie. I was still such a little girl at 21 and she was so mature.

[bmoore4026]

It's Tim Holt day today!  Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wiendish Fitch]

10 hours ago, HelenBaby said:

It is a good film. What I never really realized until last night is that Harlow was 21 when she made that movie. I was still such a little girl at 21 and she was so mature.

It was a different time, people became proper adults much sooner; hell, I'm 34, and I'll never be a fraction of the woman Harlow was (or at least presented to the world) in her short life. Honestly, most of the under-30 starlets of today seem like such children compared to the actresses from the 1920s-1930s. One poster I liked at TWoP speculated (and I'm inclined to agree) was that it was in the 1950s when a combination of Marilyn Monroe's popularity, the "back to the kitchen, ladies!" mentality, and "youth fever" kind of demolished that sophistication for a generation or two. I think the more worldly, womanly image made a comeback in the 1970s and 1980s (with actresses like Jane Fonda, Sally Field, Meryl Streep, and Vanessa Redgrave), so it's just proof how these trends ebb and flow. 

[Rinaldo]

When college wasn't universal, people had to get out in the world and think of themselves as adults in their teens. It's a sobering exercise to compute the ages of the great film ladies of the 1930s and onward (Davis, Stanwyck, Bacall, Harlow, Lombard, etc.) when they made their film debuts. They were grown-up women from the start, yet so many of them were around 20.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Rinaldo

[Padma]

Also, perhaps "womanly" (i.e. sexy maturity even at a young age) was more in vogue in the time of those stars. I know there was, then as now, ageism that affected leading women in their careers, but it seems at least imo, that many "big stars" had public images based on a worldly sophistication and sexiness then vs. now when many women in the current generation of "big stars" seem more girlish and less ...sultry...than so many names of the past. It seems like that image of "being a woman" v. a girl was more acceptable and kind of ages the stars when we look at their films now.

How much of the Hayward, Gardner, Bacall, Harlow image was real and how much was studio created because it was what the public wanted?  I remember Bacall's autobiog where she watched herself in To Have & Have Not looking so worldly-wise and provocative and felt it was all acting, very aware she still saw herself as relatively innocent 19 year old who had come to CA with her mother and was living with her.  (Okay, yes, she and Bogart began an affair during that film, but that might even be easier to have happen when you're young and a little naïve).  My point is that while it's amazing to see Harlow at 20 or Bacall at 19 in those films, I'm not sure we can tell how mature they really were privately, since the studios still had such tight control over their image off screen as well as on.    

[Wiendish Fitch]

3 hours ago, Padma said:

Also, perhaps "womanly" (i.e. sexy maturity even at a young age) was more in vogue in the time of those stars. I know there was, then as now, ageism that affected leading women in their careers, but it seems at least imo, that many "big stars" had public images based on a worldly sophistication and sexiness then vs. now when many women in the current generation of "big stars" seem more girlish and less ...sultry...than so many names of the past. It seems like that image of "being a woman" v. a girl was more acceptable and kind of ages the stars when we look at their films now.

How much of the Hayward, Gardner, Bacall, Harlow image was real and how much was studio created because it was what the public wanted?  I remember Bacall's autobiog where she watched herself in To Have & Have Not looking so worldly-wise and provocative and felt it was all acting, very aware she still saw herself as relatively innocent 19 year old who had come to CA with her mother and was living with her.  (Okay, yes, she and Bogart began an affair during that film, but that might even be easier to have happen when you're young and a little naïve).  My point is that while it's amazing to see Harlow at 20 or Bacall at 19 in those films, I'm not sure we can tell how mature they really were privately, since the studios still had such tight control over their image off screen as well as on.    

True. Heck, Jean Harlow's nickname was "Baby", and she was said to be little or nothing like her public image. Still, though, the fact that she effortlessly projected such a mature sensuality at such a young age is pretty remarkable. Bacall said she was a "totally inexperienced" and a virgin when she filmed To Have and Have Not.

 

When you read biographies of classic film actresses, it's actually a little funny, that the more innocent actresses who were said to be total sweethearts were molded into dark, sexy roles (Harlow, Rita Hayworth), whereas more rebellious party girls seemed to find themselves in "girl next door" parts (Judy Garland comes to mind). I know this wasn't deliberate, it's just that when the studio heads saw you as a type, that's pretty much where you stayed, regardless of your talent, your true personality or whatever. 

Back to Harlow, more than person who worked with her has said it was a shame she never made a Technicolor film, because she apparently had absolutely gorgeous, flawless "peaches and cream" skin. 

Edited August 9, 2016 by Wiendish Fitch

[bluepiano]

It's really impossible to compare the stars of today with those of the '30s, '40s, or even '50s. The world, and people's life experiences, were so completely different.

I'll try to keep this brief, because it's one of my pet topics, but the male stars of today, even the ones who get the macho parts, seem like children when you compare them to Gable, Tracy, Bogart, Burt Lancaster, Robert Mitchum, Kirk Douglas etc. etc. Am I really supposed to believe that pretty boys like Matt Damon or Tom Cruise are tough guys? It's like watching little boys playing dress-up. The macho stars of earlier eras didn't just seem tougher, many of them actually did come from rough and tumble backgrounds that shaped their character. Lee Marvin killed people in hand-to-hand combat while still a teenager during World War II, and the experience reportedly scarred him for life, leading to his heavy drinking. (Today we'd say he had PTSD).

So when I see Lee Marvin being a tough guy in Point Blank I believe it. If they made a remake with Matt Damon or Matthew McConaughey it would seem like a joke.

Edited August 10, 2016 by bluepiano

[Rinaldo]

I just started watching my recorded copy of The Magnificent Ambersons, one of the Great Titles I had never seen before. Somehow I had foolishly gotten the idea that it was a kind of dutiful slog -- silly me. It surpasses its immediate predecessor from Orson Welles, Citizen Kane, in the sheer fun it has with the movie medium (which is saying something). The opening sequence, mixing narration, breaking the fourth wall, time jumps, tableaux, everything it can think of to set the scene and leap the decades before the story starts properly -- what a delight. I know that I'll get to the point where it was taken away from Welles, huge amounts removed, and the ending reshot. But for now, I'm having the time of my life.

[HelenBaby]

12 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I just started watching my recorded copy of The Magnificent Ambersons, one of the Great Titles I had never seen before. Somehow I had foolishly gotten the idea that it was a kind of dutiful slog -- silly me. It surpasses its immediate predecessor from Orson Welles, Citizen Kane, in the sheer fun it has with the movie medium (which is saying something). The opening sequence, mixing narration, breaking the fourth wall, time jumps, tableaux, everything it can think of to set the scene and leap the decades before the story starts properly -- what a delight. I know that I'll get to the point where it was taken away from Welles, huge amounts removed, and the ending reshot. But for now, I'm having the time of my life.

I'm a much bigger fan of The Magnificent Ambersons than I am of Citizen Kane. To me it's a much more compelling story.

Edited August 11, 2016 by HelenBaby

[bluepiano]

Just watched Tortilla Flats. Funny to think that now there's a huge flap every time an actor plays a part outside of their own ethnic group or nationality. Made in 1942, based on Steinbeck's stories about a Mexican community in the Salinas Valley (California), there isn't anything close to an actual Mexican or Latino actor in a cast that includes Spencer Tracy, John Garfield, Hedy Lamar, Frank Morgan, Sheldon Leonard (!), Akim Tamiroff, and Allen Jenkins. All playing Mexicans. The variety of fake accents is distracting, and sometimes laughable, but Tracy is fun to watch in a comic role, Lamar looks impossibly beautiful, and it's an entertaining movie if you can look past the stereotyped characterizations.

That was actually shown on a Hedy Lamar today. Today it's Spencer Tracy, and just watching Boom Town, which features Hedy Lamar. So turnaround is fair play. Boom Town is Golden Age MGM star power at its finest, but watching it this time, I'm noticing that it's a transitional role for Claudette Colbert from her 1930s screwball comedy persona to being the "Great Lady" that she would soon become for most of her career. Through most of the movie they dress her like a school marm, in dresses buttoned up to her neck. I guess that's to show her "virtue" compared to the other women, but it still seems strange. She was only 37 at the time.

I was not a big fan of later Colbert, though I enjoyed her in her pre-code days, where she could be quite sexy and playful. Probably the last gasp of that persona was in 1942 in The Palm Beach Story, which may be attributable to the genius of Preston Sturges. A couple of years later she would be playing Jennifer Jones' mother in Since You Went Away, though she only 16 years older.  

Edited August 11, 2016 by bluepiano

[Rinaldo]

21 hours ago, HelenBaby said:

I'm a much bigger fan of The Magnificent Ambersons than I am of Citizen Kane. To me it's a much more compelling story.

I've reached the end, and it is a compelling story. Also an educational one for me, who had always ignorantly imagined Booth Tarkington, just on the basis of his creation of children's books (the Penrod series was hugely popular at one time) and sweet coming-of-age young-love stories, as a trafficker in froufrou nostalgia about a lost American past. But (taking the word of commentators that the movie is faithful, except in the reshot conclusion) he's much tougher than that. This is a real tale of the transition of the "gentleman classes" in medium-sized cities (Indianapolis in this case) to the daily working grind, with the arrival of industrialization, mechanization, and all the surrounding changes in the early twentieth century. Compelling stuff indeed. And Agnes Moorehead is as remarkable as everyone has always said.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Rinaldo

[Crisopera]

Tim Holt had an odd career, didn't he?  Son of a biggish star, Jack Holt (now so forgotten that he's not even a "Hey-it's-that-guy"), he started out as a boyish male ingénue in mostly uninteresting movies (although he did show up in Stagecoach and Stella Dallas, and the awful 5th Avenue Girl - I mention that one because I'd like to pay tribute to the magnificent bitchface of Verree Teasdale, player of unpleasant society matrons).  He had a parallel career in B westerns at RKO during the same time he did The Magnificent Ambersons, went to fight in WWII (and had a distinguished war), then came back, was in 2 of the best movies of the forties (My Darling Clementine and The Treasure of the Sierra Madre), then went back to the B- and increasingly C-westerns at RKO and retired in 1952, came back to make two Z-level flicks in 1963 and 1971, and died at 54.  Interestingly, his father had a somewhat parallel career, although he never made any great classics (except possibly Cat People), and also bookended his career in B-westerns - his career was also much lengthier (1914-1951).

[Rinaldo]

One of the highlights of Janet Gaynor Day for me is the chance to finally see Delicious. I've seen excerpts at musicology conferences, and read a lot about it (I wrote my dissertation on Gershwin songs, including the ones from this), but this was my first intact viewing. Like many early-talkie musicals, it's kind of a mess technically and stylistically (and awfully dark -- one wonders if it always was or if this is a product of time and deterioration), and the songs honestly aren't out of Gershwin's top drawer. But still, how marvelous to see it all at last. As the Maltin capsule online says, the outstanding sequences are her dream of being welcomed in America, presented as an operetta-style finaletto, and her climactic wander through the streets of New York, edited to Gershwin's brand-new "Rhapsody in Rivets," which became his concert piece Second Rhapsody.

I've also recorded her State Fair (the first of the 3 film versions), for the sake of seeing a bit of Will Rogers, but also because of a weird family connection. They did shoot some sequences at the Iowa State Fair, and the prize hog Blue Boy, who is important to the plot, belonged to my great-uncle! Well, that's family legend anyway.

[3pwood]

25 minutes ago, Rinaldo said:

... I've also recorded her State Fair (the first of the 3 film versions), for the sake of seeing a bit of Will Rogers, but also because of a weird family connection. They did shoot some sequences at the Iowa State Fair, and the prize hog Blue Boy, who is important to the plot, belonged to my great-uncle! Well, that's family legend anyway.

Wow!  In my (admittedly weird animal-loving) circle, you could dine out on that story forever!  I suppose you never got to meet Blue Boy? I hope he had a long happy retirement on a sunny farm upstate (& please don't tell me if he didn't).

[ratgirlagogo]

3 hours ago, Crisopera said:

Tim Holt had an odd career, didn't he? 

Yes, I think so too.  Hope somebody pitches an idea for a biography to Bear Manor Media.

And here is a nice article about his work in B-Westerns:

http://offscreen.com/view/tim-holt-and-the-b-western

and it turns out there is at least one full-length fannish book about him, listed in the bibliography at the end of the article.  I'm curious about his life  also.

[bluepiano]

5 hours ago, Crisopera said:

Tim Holt had an odd career, didn't he? 

I've always thought he was wonderful in Sierra Madre, my all-time favorite movie. I've seen it God knows how many times, and I've never detected the slightest false note in his performance, which more than holds its own with the more celebrated performances by Bogart and Walter Huston. He was handsome and masculine but never lapsed into the standard tough guy mannerisms used in that era. In the scene where he remembers the fruit picking experience of his youth, and at other moments, he shows a very appealing tender side. It's actually a very "modern" performance, relaxed and natural, and less theatrical than what you often see in movies of that period.

I've always wondered why that performance didn't catapult him into starring roles in major movies. I guess that in 1948 the studio system was still fairly rigid and once you got typed as a B movie western actor it was hard to escape. But I would've thought that at least John Huston would've used him again.

Edited August 13, 2016 by bluepiano

[Rinaldo]

An alert for tomorrow: It's Ralph Richardson Day, and whatever you choose you'll see a remarkable performance, but IMO the one not to be missed is The Fallen Idol (10:15 p.m. ET). Beautifully directed (as always) by Carol Reed, with an unusual premise and atmosphere, both characterful and suspenseful, and not a false note.

[Crisopera]

Oh, The Fallen Idol!  One of the most genuinely suspenseful movies ever made.  Pretty close to perfect.

[Padma]

6 hours ago, Crisopera said:

Tim Holt had an odd career, didn't he?  Son of a biggish star, Jack Holt (now so forgotten that he's not even a "Hey-it's-that-guy"), he started out as a boyish male ingénue in mostly uninteresting movies (although he did show up in Stagecoach and Stella Dallas, and the awful 5th Avenue Girl - I mention that one because I'd like to pay tribute to the magnificent bitchface of Verree Teasdale, player of unpleasant society matrons).  He had a parallel career in B westerns at RKO during the same time he did The Magnificent Ambersons, went to fight in WWII (and had a distinguished war), then came back, was in 2 of the best movies of the forties (My Darling Clementine and The Treasure of the Sierra Madre), then went back to the B- and increasingly C-westerns at RKO and retired in 1952, came back to make two Z-level flicks in 1963 and 1971, and died at 54.  Interestingly, his father had a somewhat parallel career, although he never made any great classics (except possibly Cat People), and also bookended his career in B-westerns - his career was also much lengthier (1914-1951).

You got me interested in looking up Tim Holt on Wikipedia where they quote liberally from an author (Tom Stempel) who sounds like quite a fan (his dimples etc.) He quoted Welles who said Holt was, "one of the most interesting actors that's ever been in American movies". Some int facts of his life were becoming a B-29 bombardier in the Pacific, wounded over Tokyo the last day of the war.

They quoted a couple of biographers:

Quote

David Rothel, "No more was he the callow, youthful cowboy with big, silly grin on his face. Now he exuded a steady, serious no-nonsense type of mature cowboy who was less impulsive, more contemporary, and somewhat ‘world weary." Tom Stempel argues that "While Holt had lost his baby fat during the war, he still had a wonderful grin and cute dimples. He used the mixture of charm and seriousness very well."  (One Washington Post writer, however, called him "bland".)

He spent the last years of his life (died of bone cancer) "as a builder, produced rodeos, staged and performed Western music jamborees, and worked as an advertising manager for a radio station in Oklahoma." Still not a star, but he didn't sound unhappy, saying, "Do you realize that this is the first time in my life that I can make my own decisions and do what I want to do? .... This is the first time I have not been under somebody’s thumb in my life." I liked his screen presence.  At least he had a couple of great films--unlike some other talents we talk about here who stagnated for no really good reason.

Very excited about "The Fallen Idol" tomorrow--thanks, rinaldo, for the heads up! I couldn't get to it when it was briefly out in the theater here, have never seen it (did see him live with J. Gielgud in "No Man's Land" long ago). Ralph Richardson day could be amazing--I'll have to see what else they have up.  

[Rinaldo]

One title on today's docket that isn't shown often, that I've always enjoyed is The Wrong Box, from 1966. It's a "ripping yarn" based on a R.L. Stevenson book (co-written with his stepson), adapted by Larry Gilbert & Burt Shevelove (who gave us A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum) and directed by Bryan Forbes. In addition to Richardson, the cast includes John Mills, Michael Caine, Nanette Newman (...of course), Peter Sellers, AND Peter Cook & Dudley Moore. Unfortunately it kind of fizzes out in the last seconds, but till then it's an engaging Victorian romp, based on a tontine (points for instantly knowing what that means).

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

...the cast includes John Mills, Michael Caine, Nanette Newman (...of course)...

Rinaldo, I know you too well to doubt there's an excellent reason for the "of course," but I'm missing it. Enquiring minds want to know.

[Crisopera]

The not terrifically gifted Nanette Newman was married to the director of The Wrong Box, the not terrifically gifted Bryan Forbes, and he cast her all the time. (Although I do enjoy The Wrong Box anyway - stuffed with an array of great British actors.) 

[Rinaldo]

I wouldn't put it as harshly as that, and I quite like Forbes as a director (especially The Slipper and the Rose, in which he refrained from casting the missus). For that matter, I have no problem with Ms. Newman as an actress really; there's nothing wrong with her embodiment of the blushing ingenue in The Wrong Box (it doesn't ask for much).

But later on, Forbes did on occasion seem to have a more, um, generous view of her versatility than we who must watch. Most notoriously, as recorded by William Goldman, in the first Stepford Wives movie, where her casting as one of the central Wives pretty much doomed it (in Goldman's eyes and mine). But as he said, how can you tell your director his wife isn't sexy enough to play a sex android?

[bluepiano]

I've never quite gotten the huge appeal (in her time) of Janet Gaynor. She's a little too pixie-cute for my taste. Just watched Sunnyside Up, from 1929. Janet is such a perpetually upbeat ray of sunshine that she literally keeps everyone in her entire New York City slum neighborhood smiling and singing.  They're a much happier lot than those miserable rich snobs out in Southampton. (A popular trope in early Hollywood movies. Only materially poor people really know how to enjoy life).

It looked like in this movie they were trying to turn Janet into a musical comedy star. It was the early days of sound, and so I guess they were testing the musical skills of all the former silent stars. But she has a squeaky and to my ears not that pleasant a voice, and the best thing you can say about her dancing is that she's enthusiastic.

Edited August 13, 2016 by bluepiano

[Rinaldo]

In Delicious, Gaynor had only one Gershwin song to deliver: just sitting quietly addressing the camera in closeup. Under those circumstances she was fine. It does seem as if they were trying out all their formerly silent people. Interestingly, some of those who did have experience in musicals ended up going in other directions in their movie career (whether by their own choice or the studios'). Joan Crawford, who showed her her enthusiastic (to use your word) Charleston in Hollywood Revue, didn't really pursue that genre. And Irene Dunne got to make Show Boat and 3 or 4 others, but mostly made her mark in non-singing comedy and drama.

[ratgirlagogo]

4 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Most notoriously, as recorded by William Goldman, in the first Stepford Wives movie, where her casting as one of the central Wives pretty much doomed it (in Goldman's eyes and mine). But as he said, how can you tell your director his wife isn't sexy enough to play a sex android?

Well, I strongly disagree.  This isn't a story about husbands in Beverly Hills, this is a story about husbands in Connecticut in the height of the Mad Men era - men who believed with all their hearts that there were the women you fucked and then there were the women you married.  The fuckable ones were all in New York City (where the husband worked) and you certainly didn't want THAT kind of girl anywhere near your home and your kids and your country club.   You wanted a wife who lived for cooking and cleaning, got all her clothes from Talbot's and read women's magazines (but not Cosmo!) - she was there to take care of the household, entertain neighbors and  work contacts  and not ask any questions about how often her husband had to work late or go out of town on business.   Goldman's idea that this kind of guy wanted a Playboy Playmate android for a wife  was a fatal misunderstanding of the book, IMO - of course he wanted a wife android. Given that,  I thought Mrs. Forbes was perfectly solid in the role (those creepy glitches are one of  the things I  still remember being the most scary -  "I'll just die if I don't get that recipe " over and over).    Although I thought then as I think now that Paula Prentiss stole the show, as she did in most things she was in.   Every time I see her I am stunned all over again that she didn't become a huge, huge star.

Edited August 13, 2016 by ratgirlagogo

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, ratgirlagogo said:

Although I thought then as I think now that Paula Prentiss stole the show, as she did in most things she was in.   Every time I see her I am stunned all over again that she didn't become a huge, huge star.

I loved her too, in everything I ever saw her in. (Including He & She.) Wikipedia perhaps provides a clue to the non-stellarness of her career, saying that she had a nervous breakdown in 1965 that kept her out of films for 5 years. Just speculating, but maybe anxiety issues were recurring?

Crisopera and Rinaldo, thanks for the lowdown on Nanette Newman.

[Wiendish Fitch]

Quote

 

This isn't a story about husbands in Beverly Hills, this is a story about husbands in Connecticut in the height of the Mad Men era - men who believed with all their hearts that there were the women you fucked and then there were the women you married.  The fuckable ones were all in New York City (where the husband worked) and you certainly didn't want THAT kind of girl anywhere near your home and your kids and your country club.   You wanted a wife who lived for cooking and cleaning, got all her clothes from Talbot's and read women's magazines (but not Cosmo!) - she was there to take care of the household, entertain neighbors and  work contacts  and not ask any questions about how often her husband had to work late or go out of town on business.   Goldman's idea that this kind of guy wanted a Playboy Playmate android for a wife  was a fatal misunderstanding of the book, IMO - of course he wanted a wife android. Given that,  I thought Mrs. Forbes was perfectly solid in the role (those creepy glitches are one of  the things I  still remember being the most scary -  "I'll just die if I don't get that recipe " over and over).

 

You've reminded me of this great Dennis Miller quote:

I know the myth is that men want Traci Lords in the bedroom, Julia Child in the kitchen, Hazel around the house, Leslie Visser during a game, Mary Poppins to the children, Cha Cha Muldowney in traffic, Dr. Quinn Medicine chick when I'm sick, Mary Richards at work, Mother Theresa when I come home with leprosy, Gertrude Stein in conversation, the body of Sophia Loren in Boy on a Dolphin combined with the voice of Sade and to top it all off with the I.Q. of Anna Nicole Smith because, of course, we don't want to feel threatened. 

[Rinaldo]

ratgirlagogo and I already established that we disagree on this point last time it came up here, so I'm happy to shake hands and move on. (Just to clarify, reading Goldman on the subject came decades later -- I thought from my first viewing of the movie, "What in the world is Nanette Newman doing in this story?")

I'm even more happy to agree about Paula Prentiss. (When will we get He & She on home video?) What I've discovered about her in my past year of scouring TCM is that she was a lot more visible onscreen in the 1960s than I'd realized, with a lot of both starring and sidekick roles. (And five pairings with Jim Hutton, for heaven's sake.) She had that essential quality to be memorable: she was unlike anyone else, with a spark and tempo all her own.

[Padma]

Did anyone see "Oscar Wilde" after the (not unexpectedly) excellent "The Fallen Idol"?  The film (1960) was much better than I expected, brining out Wilde's brilliance, kindness, and making him sympathetic before going through his suit against the Marquis of Queensbury for slander--a courtroom trial which eventually led to Wilde being accused of homosexual conduct and sentenced to prison for two years of hard labor.  (Ralph Richardson was the prosecutor.)

I liked the script, especially for 1960 and felt there was a lot to like about the film. Only two things were problems for me and I wish they'd made different choices:  Robert Morley as a physically unattractive Wilde (though he spoke slowly enough to appreciate the many bon mots, at least) and the final scene, which was ridiculous. Other than that, I thought it had a lot of merit.

[Rinaldo]

Darn, I missed that -- partly because I feel I can record only so much in a day (I have to watch it all eventually), partly because I figured at that date they couldn't do justice to Wilde. That may have been my own arrogant assumption. I see TCM has put it On Demand, so I may still check into it. Thanks for the alert.

Any thoughts on The Fallen Idol?

[bluepiano]

On ‎8‎/‎13‎/‎2016 at 2:39 PM, Milburn Stone said:

I loved her too, in everything I ever saw her in. (Including He & She.)

Thanks for the mention of He and She. I didn't think anyone remembered that show. My uncle was one of the producers. I was only a little kid when it was on, so I probably didn't get much of its sophisticated humor. Apparently not many Americans did, because it had a short run, despite excellent reviews.

I agree with you about Paula Prentiss. Her supporting roles in those silly comedies she was in during the early '60s were usually the best thing in the movie. She was the female lead opposite Rock Hudson in Man's Favorite Sport, one of Howard Hawks' last and certainly least movies. It was a critical and commercial failure. Reportedly he wanted her for the lead because she had a deep voice, like his much earlier "discovery" Lauren Bacall.

In his next movie, Red Line 700, he cast a Vogue model with no acting experience named Gail Hire, who years later married a good friend of mine. She also had a deep voice, and she told me that Hawks had her stand alone on a sound stage and scream at the top of her lungs, so that she would get hoarse and her voice would sound even deeper. Apparently for Hawks, a deep, throaty voice was the essence of sex appeal. Or else he never got over Lauren Bacall.

Edited August 14, 2016 by bluepiano

[Bastet]

Quote

Thanks for the mention of He and She. I didn't think anyone remembered that show. My uncle was one of the producers. I was only a little kid when it was on, so I probably didn't get much of its sophisticated humor. Apparently not many Americans did, because it had a short run, despite excellent reviews.

I liked that show.  It was before my time, but I met someone in the early '90s who had an impressive VHS collection of films and TV shows not readily available.  He was forever loaning me things he thought I'd enjoy, including He & She.

Prentiss and Benjamin (married in real life, of course) played husband and wife again in a spectacularly silly '80s horror spoof, Saturday the 14th.  I have it memorized, as does a friend of mine, and we pull it out a couple of times a year as part of our movie nights.

Both actors are on my "Actors I Like in Pretty Much Everything" list.

[Rinaldo]

3 hours ago, bluepiano said:

[Paula Prentiss] was the female lead opposite Rock Hudson in Man's Favorite Sport, one of Howard Hawks' last and certainly least movies. 

In fact, one reads that Hawks considered Man's Favorite Sport? a loose remake of Bringing Up Baby. (I have trouble seeing it myself.)

15 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I liked [He & She].  It was before my time, but I met someone in the early '90s who had an impressive VHS collection of films and TV shows not readily available. 

Both actors are on my "Actors I Like in Pretty Much Everything" list.

I see that a number of He & She episodes are viewable on YouTube. I've seen only a couple myself, as its one season was my senior year in college. When I came home for Thanksgiving, my parents acquainted me with it, saying "We like this one." It was the sort of breezy contemporary sitcom that found a bigger audience a couple of years later with The Mary Tyler Moore Show. (Co-created by He & She's story editor Allan Burns. And Ted Baxter was very much a Jack Cassidy sort of role -- he was their first choice for it.)

I can't quite say I like Benjamin and Prentiss in everything -- they were both such specific types that they could be miscast -- but in congenial roles (which most often they were) they were both wonderfully enjoyable.

[Milburn Stone]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

I see that a number of He & She episodes are viewable on YouTube. I've seen only a couple myself, as its one season was my senior year in college. When I came home for Thanksgiving, my parents acquainted me with it, saying "We like this one."

Kind of the same for me, only I saw more than one or two episodes, so maybe they had summer re-runs?

In that benighted television era, I remember thinking, "Oh look, TV for intelligent people."

[Padma]

11 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Darn, I missed that -- partly because I feel I can record only so much in a day (I have to watch it all eventually), partly because I figured at that date they couldn't do justice to Wilde. That may have been my own arrogant assumption. I see TCM has put it On Demand, so I may still check into it. Thanks for the alert.

Any thoughts on The Fallen Idol?

If you happen to see it, low expectations are key. I did not, for a second, think Robert Morley was showing me the "real" Oscar Wilde, or anything remotely like him. And yet, I understand some of those choices and think they were positive overall (except for Wilde being so homely.  Lord Alfred Douglas had some resemblance to the actor, but maybe TPTB worried that if both men were good looking we might actually -feel- some sexual chemistry between them. However, there was a scene with Wilde's wife and Douglas that I thought was pretty commendable--anyway, as I say, other than Morley and the ending, I thought it was a worthwhile and sympathetic effort.

And thanks for the  heads up for "The Fallen Idol", I was so glad to see it--great film--directing, story, acting. Bobby Henrey, the little boy, was amazing--very natural. His childish cluelessness about the "adult world things" that, of course, the audience would understand but he really didn't was fascinating. What great, subtle writing. And  I really like Richardson's very restrained performance--again, subtle. Also impressive was how Greene et al built the suspense and showed Phillipe trying so desperately to help (by lying) and failing so badly--and everyone's reactions, simultaneously letting the audience see a child's point of view and what was really going on with the adults. Really unique film, beautifully done.

[Rinaldo]

7 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Kind of the same for me, only I saw more than one or two episodes, so maybe they had summer re-runs?

I think so, and I also think that despite the single season, it was in the summer-rerurn mix for a few years afterward. I didn't own a TV during those years, but even in the early 70s, I would sometimes turn on a TV in a motel or wherever, and find that He & She was showing (and usually about to end in 5 minutes...). I see that AV Club did a nice column appreciating it, so that may make a nice summing-up to round off our lengthy sidebar in this TCM forum. 

[bluepiano]

Anyone remember Ann Prentiss, Paula's younger sister, who looked and sounded quite a bit like her. Her acting career was mostly confined to TV guest spots but she had a few small movie roles.

I tried to upload a jpeg of a cheesy Coppertone ad that Paula Prentiss did as a tie-in to the movie The Horizontal Lieutenant co-starring Jim Hutton (he seemed to be in virtually every '60s movie she was in) but it exceeds the maximum allowable file size. You can easily find it on Google or Bing images.

Edited August 15, 2016 by bluepiano

[Rinaldo]

I do remember Ann Prentiss, but damned if I can remember why. I'll have to look it up. Hm, lots of TV guest shots that I never saw, a flop series (Captain Nice) that ditto... must have been the movie California Split, which I definitely saw (I was seeing everything Altman made in the 70s).

A day or two back, I mentioned that Paula Prentiss and Jim Hutton were a popular film pairing in that decade -- 5 times (and trailers for the movies would point out that they were together again). I first encountered them in The Honeymoon Machine, in which they played "second couple" to Steve McQueen and Brigid Bazlen.

[mariah23]

I just looked up Ann Prentiss and she went to prison for terrorizing her family and trying to find someone to kill her brother-in-law!!!

[bluepiano]

Now that you mention that about Ann Prentiss, I do sort of remember reading about it at the time. Guess that didn't help her career.

3 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I do remember Ann Prentiss, but damned if I can remember why. I'll have to look it up. Hm, lots of TV guest shots that I never saw, a flop series (Captain Nice) that ditto... must have been the movie California Split, which I definitely saw (I was seeing everything Altman made in the 70s).

A day or two back, I mentioned that Paula Prentiss and Jim Hutton were a popular film pairing in that decade -- 5 times (and trailers for the movies would point out that they were together again).

Captain Nice was probably an even more forgotten series than He and She. Because my head is full of worthless information, I remember that around the same time there was another superhero spoof series called Mr. Terrific. (I guess it was in the wake of the popularity of the Adam West Batman show).

Captain Nice starred William Daniels, who was one of my favorite unknown character actors (great in The President's Analyst and A Thousand Clowns) until years later when he got more well known from his role on St. Elsewhere.

Jim Hutton and Paula Prentiss never quite became the Tracy and Hepburn of the '60s, but I always thought that Hutton was a good comic actor with a likable on-screen personality. Sadly he died at only 45. Many people now probably only know him as the father of Timothy.

Edited August 15, 2016 by bluepiano

[Jordan Baker]

19 hours ago, bluepiano said:

Anyone remember Ann Prentiss, Paula's younger sister, who looked and sounded quite a bit like her. Her acting career was mostly confined to TV guest spots but she had a few small movie roles.

I tried to upload a jpeg of a cheesy Coppertone ad that Paula Prentiss did as a tie-in to the movie The Horizontal Lieutenant co-starring Jim Hutton (he seemed to be in virtually every '60s movie she was in) but it exceeds the maximum allowable file size. You can easily find it on Google or Bing images.

Oh, my. I remember The Horizontal Lieutenant, but mostly because I remember the theme song. If you've heard it once, it sticks in your head forever.

I also remember seeing Man's Favorite Sport in the theater when I was young. I really liked Paula Prentiss because she was different from most of the actresses of the time.

I also loved Richard Benjamin. Goodbye, Columbus was such a memorable film for an impressionable teen. Every father's daughter is a virgin.

I saw RB and PP in an play at the Beacon Theater in NYC in 1998. They took over from Alan Arkin and Elaine May. Power Plays. It wasn't great, but it was cool to see them.

I am new to TCM. We moved in the last year, and this is the first time I've been with a cable company that carried TCM. It's great because of all the wonderful films it provides, but it's really bad for those of us who are insomniacs. I watched an entire film a few weeks ago that I'd never heard of (even though it's right up my alley) called Girlfriends. It's set in NYC (always a plus for me) in 1978. How did I miss it?

'course, it started at 2:00 a.m. and I watched the whole thing.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Jordan Baker

[voiceover]

9 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

 Paula Prentiss and Jim Hutton were a popular film pairing in that decade -- 5 times 

Love the TCM short where she (if memory serves) talks about the fact that they became an onscreen couple because they were height-entical (yukyukyuk)...the two tallest contract players on the lot; it was meant to be.

I crushed on Jim when I was a kid during his Ellery Queen/Mystery Movie days.  Um: yum.