The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Mari]

6 minutes ago, Camera One said:

 

And cue A&E talking about how this year, everyone is exploring their other "half".  Though I'm not sure how they define "everyone".

"There's just so many people that it's like, it's sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina's story. That's just showbiz." —Edward Kitsis

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

"There's just so many people that it's like, it's sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina's story. That's just showbiz." —Edward Kitsis

Gee, I wonder how ensemble cast shows even succeed then. Maybe it takes good writing or something?

[Free]

On 11/16/2016 at 6:54 PM, Camera One said:

 

And cue A&E talking about how this year, everyone is exploring their other "half".  Though I'm not sure how they define "everyone".

In 'off screen' land, I guess.  That or they were doing it while they were standing around in the background doing nothing and we just didn't notice it.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Free

[KingOfHearts]

It's sad that the show isn't running on fumes because it has used up its potential, but because the writers have lost their creativity. There's still so much story to tell, but it's all taboo in the writer's room. We can't revisit possibilities opened up before because that wouldn't include a new, shiny toy. We can't explore Emma's relationship with her parents, Regina coming to terms with her victims, or the identity crises of the Storybrooke citizens. The characters aren't allowed to interact much with each other unless it's a designated pairing. (Emma can't talk to Belle, Charming can't go on a quest with Regina, Zelena can't have auntie time with Henry, etc.) It's not that there's nothing to mine, but the writers have skipped over so much that they have completely missed several seasons worth of material. All their hopping around has led to an empty void.

In S6, specifically, the writers had several plots to utilize that they just didn't. We had Hyde and the LoUS people, but then Aladdin/Jasmine replaced that for the most part in 6x05. Regina had Robin's death and her newfound relationship with her sister to contend with, but instead she had to get split. Emma had a whole season of grief to deal with and she just made the step to let Hook move in. But, instead of actually exploring what's going on in her psyche, we have a tacked on, external imminent death plot. The Rumpbelle baby drama is really the only thread that gracefully flowed from one season to the next.

Edited November 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I don't know if it's the Writers losing their creativity, or simply that the Writers find actual quality storytelling to be boring.  Regina returning the hearts to her former victims and repenting to the ordinary citizens; Snow getting to talk to/work with Emma and trying to make up for the years she lost as Emma's mother; Rumple coming to grips with no longer being the Dark One and no longer be able to do magic; Townspeople trying to figure out if they want to stay in Storybrooke or move back to the Enchanted Forest... the stories are there to be told, but the interesting routes are ignored every time in favor of pointless visions of death, convoluted plans of revenge, hunts for MacGuffins that end up being useless, and on-again-off-again relationships (for Rumbelle).  

I mean, Regina is supposedly their favorite character, yet was the point of Season 6 to explore Regina, or was it to write scenery chewing scenes for The Evil Queen?  Based on the character development so far (or lackthereof), it's solely for the latter.  Likewise, giving Emma dire visions of death or having Snowing in a special-twist sleeping curse does nothing to develop or further their characters.  It simply provides a bunch of hand-wringing while repeating the same tiresome "Together we stand, alone we fall, love and hope conquers all" lesson the characters have learned a hundred times before.

Edited November 22, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I mean, Regina is supposedly their favorite character, yet was the point of Season 6 to explore Regina, or was it to write scenery chewing scenes for The Evil Queen? 

It doesn't make much sense not to explore Regina's feelings here. We've seen every piece of her brain already in the past, but if this is the plot we're stuck with, it doesn't take a genius to decide that what she's going through is integral. The writers took out time to show us what little is going on in the Evil Queen's mind, but even in the Swan Queen bait scenes we haven't heard how everything is affecting Regina. To be honest, I thought it was nice to hear EQ in the spa voice her regret over how she raised Henry or her opinion of Zelena. While her viewpoint isn't super important, at least it was a character moment with revealing dialogue. I'd like to see more of that in other characters.

It seems like such a basic writing technique to have a character speak their thoughts. There are more creative ways to convey emotion, but we should at least get some productive dialogue at minimum.

Edited November 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Free]

18 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's sad that the show isn't running on fumes because it has used up its potential, but because the writers have lost their creativity. There's still so much story to tell, but it's all taboo in the writer's room. We can't revisit possibilities opened up before because that wouldn't include a new, shiny toy. We can't explore Emma's relationship with her parents, Regina coming to terms with her victims, or the identity crises of the Storybrooke citizens. The characters aren't allowed to interact much with each other unless it's a designated pairing. (Emma can't talk to Belle, Charming can't go on a quest with Regina, Zelena can't have auntie time with Henry, etc.) It's not that there's nothing to mine, but the writers have skipped over so much that they have completely missed several seasons worth of material. All their hopping around has led to an empty void.

In S6, specifically, the writers had several plots to utilize that they just didn't. We had Hyde and the LoUS people, but then Aladdin/Jasmine replaced that for the most part in 6x05. Regina had Robin's death and her newfound relationship with her sister to contend with, but instead she had to get split. Emma had a whole season of grief to deal with and she just made the step to let Hook move in. But, instead of actually exploring what's going on in her psyche, we have a tacked on, external imminent death plot. The Rumpbelle baby drama is really the only thread that gracefully flowed from one season to the next.

The premise itself should've had a lot of creativity and yet the writers don't use any of it, constantly rehashing subplots.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, Free said:

The premise itself should've had a lot of creativity and yet the writers don't use any of it, constantly rehashing subplots.

Thinking back on the various arc plots, I think a lot of their problem is that they've come to believe that more is better, and the result is that it's getting more and more shallow, when their better arcs have involved rather simple plots that they were forced to delve into.

Season one: the only real arc plot was the casting of the curse in the past and building to the breaking of the curse in the present. Every story was part of these plots. Even in the "one off" episodes, the flashback may have been about that character, but the main plot in the present was still the Regina vs. Snow or Emma clash. As a result, we learned a lot about the characters and how that conflict came from them and reflected them and how that conflict affected the big picture.

2A was mostly focused on getting Emma and Snow home, with subplots about Regina's attempt to reform and the Rumple and Belle relationship. But the plot was fairly focused, with the other two being more about character than about plot.

It got really scattered in 2B, with Cora's attempt to woo Regina and take over the town, Hook trying to get revenge on Rumple, Rumple finding his son and learning that he's Henry's father, Regina's scheme to kill everyone and escape with Henry, the dark heart, Greg and Tamara and the Home Office. There was some overlap, but most of these were drifting off on their own.

We're back to focus with 3A, where the whole story was the group vs. Pan in an attempt to save Henry. The flashbacks were a little random at times, but the present-day plot kept coming back to that conflict and exploring how it related to each of the characters.

3B was also fairly focused, with the entire arc being about trying to stop Zelena's time travel spell. It wasn't necessarily well executed, but there was a strong unifying thread.

4A was semi-focused, with the two arcs of Ingrid trying to put together her magical family and Rumple trying to get ultimate power, and those two overlapped. There was just a lot of stuff wrapped up in the Ingrid arc that gave the sense of lack of focus -- Ingrid herself, her background with Emma, the Frozen stuff, Emma's power. And then there was the side plot of Regina and Robin that set up the Author stuff.

4B was another unfocused mess, with the Author plot and the three Queens of Darkness, who were united under that theme but otherwise didn't really have anything to do with each other, and then there was the Rumple dark heart and the eggbaby. They sort of tried to pull it all together under the idea that all the villains wanted the author to rewrite their endings, but then that made the heroes trying to do the same thing for Regina look dumb.

5A had the makings of a strong central thread with the Dark One. It might even have worked by folding that into Camelot and Merlin, but the dots didn't connect all that well, and then we had the distraction of Merida.

5B was mostly focused on the Underworld, but then it splintered with the save Hook stuff, the helping people move on stuff, Regina's family drama, and the Hades plot, and none of them were developed at all.

6A so far has the Evil Queen/Regina split, Jekyll and Hyde, the Untold Stories, the Savior doom, Rumple and his unborn child, and the Aladdin/Jasmine stuff.

What they really need to do is take one plot and really develop it. Then they wouldn't burn through so many ideas.

[Camera One]

Quote

6A so far has the Evil Queen/Regina split, Jekyll and Hyde, the Untold Stories, the Savior doom, Rumple and his unborn child, and the Aladdin/Jasmine stuff.

I think this has been the most cluttered mishmash of random unrelated stuff since 2B.  The links between the various elements are tenuous at best, or just plain unconvincing.  The new head of ABC programming, or whatever her position is, clearly had a poor handle on A&E's capabilities and their ability to do a full-season arc.  Maybe asking them for actual plans might have been a good idea.  A "Save Agrabah" plot  in 6A would have been preferable even if everyone had come back with amnesia... again.  Or they go to Agrabrooke which landed somewhere close by, and awaken the people one by one.  

Edited November 23, 2016 by Camera One

[Free]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

Thinking back on the various arc plots, I think a lot of their problem is that they've come to believe that more is better, and the result is that it's getting more and more shallow, when their better arcs have involved rather simple plots that they were forced to delve into.

Season one: the only real arc plot was the casting of the curse in the past and building to the breaking of the curse in the present. Every story was part of these plots. Even in the "one off" episodes, the flashback may have been about that character, but the main plot in the present was still the Regina vs. Snow or Emma clash. As a result, we learned a lot about the characters and how that conflict came from them and reflected them and how that conflict affected the big picture.

2A was mostly focused on getting Emma and Snow home, with subplots about Regina's attempt to reform and the Rumple and Belle relationship. But the plot was fairly focused, with the other two being more about character than about plot.

It got really scattered in 2B, with Cora's attempt to woo Regina and take over the town, Hook trying to get revenge on Rumple, Rumple finding his son and learning that he's Henry's father, Regina's scheme to kill everyone and escape with Henry, the dark heart, Greg and Tamara and the Home Office. There was some overlap, but most of these were drifting off on their own.

We're back to focus with 3A, where the whole story was the group vs. Pan in an attempt to save Henry. The flashbacks were a little random at times, but the present-day plot kept coming back to that conflict and exploring how it related to each of the characters.

3B was also fairly focused, with the entire arc being about trying to stop Zelena's time travel spell. It wasn't necessarily well executed, but there was a strong unifying thread.

4A was semi-focused, with the two arcs of Ingrid trying to put together her magical family and Rumple trying to get ultimate power, and those two overlapped. There was just a lot of stuff wrapped up in the Ingrid arc that gave the sense of lack of focus -- Ingrid herself, her background with Emma, the Frozen stuff, Emma's power. And then there was the side plot of Regina and Robin that set up the Author stuff.

4B was another unfocused mess, with the Author plot and the three Queens of Darkness, who were united under that theme but otherwise didn't really have anything to do with each other, and then there was the Rumple dark heart and the eggbaby. They sort of tried to pull it all together under the idea that all the villains wanted the author to rewrite their endings, but then that made the heroes trying to do the same thing for Regina look dumb.

5A had the makings of a strong central thread with the Dark One. It might even have worked by folding that into Camelot and Merlin, but the dots didn't connect all that well, and then we had the distraction of Merida.

5B was mostly focused on the Underworld, but then it splintered with the save Hook stuff, the helping people move on stuff, Regina's family drama, and the Hades plot, and none of them were developed at all.

6A so far has the Evil Queen/Regina split, Jekyll and Hyde, the Untold Stories, the Savior doom, Rumple and his unborn child, and the Aladdin/Jasmine stuff.

What they really need to do is take one plot and really develop it. Then they wouldn't burn through so many ideas.

Oh definitely, the whole point of doing arcs was supposed to help with these problems but even then it still became a disjointed mess.

[Camera One]

By the time the first few episodes of the season aired, were they already filming the Episode 8 and 9?  I mean, even without ratings information, couldn't the Writers figure out that the plot was floundering?  If they had course-corrected and had The Evil Queen defeated and Emma "killed" by the winter break, at least there would be something new to look forward to the in spring.  But knowing them, they have already determined some dumb twist for The Evil Queen defeat and they were unwilling to let it go.

[Mathius]

I'm still laughing that A&E promised more "small-town stories" this season...which evidently, they just meant as stories taking place in a small town, because literally ONLY 6x03 (the one with Cinderella) had a feeling of mundane, small-town quality and stakes that weren't too over the top. Everything else has been urgency, misery, life-or-death, magic, dragons, submarines, and the EQ hamming it up...no different from past seasons.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Mathius

[Rumsy4]

Hey, now--Snow's been grading papers and Henry's had a date with Violet. That's small town stuff. What more do you want?? ;-) 

[KAOS Agent]

The writers said this season was supposed to be Emma in her bug helping people like in S1. That happened once. In episode three.

[Souris]

A&E were post-truth before post-truth was cool. The level of their misinformation and deception in interviews is mind-boggling.

[KingOfHearts]

2 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Hey, now--Snow's been grading papers and Henry's had a date with Violet. That's small town stuff. What more do you want?? ;-) 

42 minutes of sheriffing?!

Quote

The writers said this season was supposed to be Emma in her bug helping people like in S1. That happened once. In episode three.

Whenever A&E do those pre-season interviews, they tend to only talk about the first three or four episodes. After that, what they said means nothing. They always sound like they're talking about the entire arc.

Edited November 29, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Quote

The writers said this season was supposed to be Emma in her bug helping people like in S1. That happened once. In episode three.

They probably count Emma "helping" Aladdin as well since it did involve her yellow bug.

Don't forget their other teaser... Year of Snowing.  

Edited November 30, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

45 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Don't forget Year of Snowing.  

Now I get what they meant as the Year of Snowing. Alternative sleep cycles. 

[KingOfHearts]

23 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Now I get what they meant as the Year of Snowing. Alternative sleep cycles. 

It's six months of Snow and six months of Charming, apparently.

[Camera One]

I just figured it out... "This will be the year of Snowing "is referring to the OTHER definition of "snowing":

SNOWING (verb) - to mislead or charm (someone) with elaborate and insincere words.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Camera One

[Souris]

Jen says they regularly film 60 minutes for a 42-minute show. (Warning: Spoilers later in video.) That is insane!

Other shows don’t seem to have this issue, certainly not to this degree, so that is a huge problem with the show’s writing. They seem to mostly edit post-filming rather than in the writing stage, which frankly wastes a lot of time, money and actor/crew energy. I’m surprised ABC lets them get away with that. They’re basically cutting almost a third of what they film for every episode!

No wonder things often don’t make sense or feel like significant scenes were cut – it’s because they were.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Souris

[KingOfHearts]

We need a DVD that just includes the 18 minutes missing from every episode.

[Camera One]

Turn them into Youtube webisodes and profit from ads, and to keep fans connected during the mid-year break.

[tri4335]

3 hours ago, Souris said:

Jen says they regularly film 60 minutes for a 42-minute show. (Warning: Spoilers later in video.) That is insane!

Other shows don’t seem to have this issue, certainly not to this degree, so that is a huge problem with the show’s writing. They seem to mostly edit post-filming rather than in the writing stage, which frankly wastes a lot of time, money and actor/crew energy. I’m surprised ABC lets them get away with that. They’re basically cutting almost a third of what they film for every episode!

No wonder things often don’t make sense or feel like significant scenes were cut – it’s because they were.

And the problem is that we don't know if they consider what they cut canon or not!  I'm assuming that these scenes would inform the actors about their characters so it may have them add subtext here and there and then A & E decide to contradict those scenes later so everyone's confused.

[Souris]

12 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

And the problem is that we don't know if they consider what they cut canon or not!  I'm assuming that these scenes would inform the actors about their characters so it may have them add subtext here and there and then A & E decide to contradict those scenes later so everyone's confused.

They seem to consider some cut scenes canon, some not, which makes it even more confusing for everybody involved.

It's a truly terrible method of making a TV show.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Souris

[Rumsy4]

Almost every single script tease this season has had cut stuff in it. Adam can't even remember what they kept or cut, and he's always claimed he and Eddy make the final decisions on what scenes to keep. 

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

Almost every single script tease this season has had cut stuff in it. Adam can't even remember what they kept or cut, and he's always claimed he and Eddy make the final decisions on what scenes to keep. 

I'm very thankful they cut most of the "fairy language" line. It did not need to be canon that Belle learned ancient fairy language in diapers.

Quote

It's a truly terrible method of making a TV show.

In the cut scenes you'll find Regina feeling self-awareness, Captain Swan domestic life, Emma and her parents talking out their issues, and Henry being disciplined. 

Edited December 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

In the cut scenes you'll find ...  Emma and her parents talking out their issues

Unfortunately not.  These scenes are in The Land of Never-Told Stories.

[Rumsy4]

I'm glad they cut the "he still loves me" dreck Belle spouted to Emma in the last episode. But that line doesn't bode well for the future.

[Curio]

12 hours ago, Souris said:

Jen says they regularly film 60 minutes for a 42-minute show. (Warning: Spoilers later in video.) That is insane!

 

If we're being generous and say that they cut 10 minutes of film every episode, and there have been about 120 episodes so far...that's 1,200 minutes of film lying around on the ground, or about 28 episodes. That's incredible. We joke about the other show Once Upon a Time in Offscreenville we'd rather be watching, but it's not even a joke...there's literally an entire season of Offscreenville lying around in an editing room somewhere in real life.

Quote

Other shows don’t seem to have this issue, certainly not to this degree, so that is a huge problem with the show’s writing. They seem to mostly edit post-filming rather than in the writing stage, which frankly wastes a lot of time, money and actor/crew energy. I’m surprised ABC lets them get away with that. They’re basically cutting almost a third of what they film for every episode!

 

I'm surprised ABC has allowed them to do this method for this long. I can understand a show in it's first or second season still trying to find its footing and purposely shooting more film to play things safe, but by Season 6, OUAT should be a well-oiled machine by now. I mentioned a while back ago I attended a television festival where a panel of showrunners described how wasteful it is to write more than what's needed in an episode and how it's ultimately the showrunner's job to control the amount of film that's shot per week. I'll try and find the video and transcribe it because it's perfect for this discussion.

Quote

No wonder things often don’t make sense or feel like significant scenes were cut – it’s because they were.

There have been several times where the actors don't even remember what scenes make it to air and get confused at conventions. Colin described the beanstalk scene where Hook used his hook to save Emma when she slipped as if it aired, so even he didn't know that scene got cut. If OUAT was a fairly uneventful procedural show like CSI then I can understand cutting so many scenes, but this show has so many plots and twists that it's not sustainable and not logical to keep this method up. You'd think after a while A&E would realize that this is the reason why they have so many continuity issues, but they don't really seem to care all that much about changing their own canon, so I guess it doesn't bother them.

[AnotherCastle]

There was a con panel (Florida I think?) where EdR was asked if she watches her own stuff and her answer was that she is watching OUAT on TV because it was important to her to know what the audience actually sees because editing can change the episode so much from script/filming to what makes it on screen.

Edited December 3, 2016 by AnotherCastle

[KingOfHearts]

I can't imagine being an actor and having everything edited. It has to be totally different from when they acted. Post-production can change the entire context, feel and meaning of a scene. I wonder how many times their imaginations have been the total opposite of what the aired version conveyed. (Especially on a show where the writers fly by the seats of their pants.)

On a different topic, it's funny how it seems the writers intentionally avoid low hanging fruit just for the sake of keeping the audience on their toes. They're terrified of any logical predictability. (Though ironically, many things they do require little guesswork to foresee.)  For example, it would make perfect sense for Regina and Zelena to bond as sisters. But that doesn't create enough drama, so Regina needs to be unforgiving. I guess it's worth sacrificing logic and structure in order to keep the audience on their toes.

Edited December 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[kitticup]

A&E are like smart but lazy kids.  They've learned they can coast on doing what they want without developing any discipline.  What they don't realize it will catch up to you as everyone gets tired of their never changing ways and their potential goes away.

[KingOfHearts]

53 minutes ago, kitticup said:

A&E are like smart but lazy kids.  They've learned they can coast on doing what they want without developing any discipline.  What they don't realize it will catch up to you as everyone gets tired of their never changing ways and their potential goes away.

Even the most optimistic and fanatic of fans are now seeing the retreads some of us caught way back in S3...

[Curio]

I found the video I mentioned earlier. It's from a panel called "Breaking Story" where a group of television showrunners, EPs, and creators discussed the process of breaking a story in the writers' room and other interesting behind-the-scenes tidbits. I recommend giving the entire panel a watch if you're interested in the writers' room process, but it's also an hour long, so here's a shortened transcript of the relevant part:

Quote

Audience Question:
Is there a standard—or is it different from room to room—to write the exact amount of pages you need for a show, or to go over, or go over by a certain percentage? And is it difficult to then decide what you’ll use once you’ve shot it?

Hart Hanson:
I probably have worked on the most formulaic show out of everyone up here. If a script goes over…in Bones, you know that there is a number of scenes and a number of pages that are optimal, and if it diverges from that, there has to be a very good reason. But if a writer gives me a really long script, I give it back immediately. Don’t look at me to cut ten pages from this—you cut it.

Audience Question:
So you’re doing it before it even shoots?

Panelists:
Yes.

Scott Rosenbaum:
What happens is you have seven days, eight days, six days [to film an episode]…and sometimes you don’t know until like maybe the first or second episode, but you can understand very quickly and learn very quickly what the crew is capable of doing, and which is optimal, meaning…you try to push them. There’s an amount you have to get to make your story work—a certain amount of scenes—but what you don’t want to do is waste an entire day shooting. This is just me because I don’t like this stuff, like shooting an action sequence when I would much rather have a 5-page scene with just two actors talking and make it as riveting as any action sequence. But you need to make sure that that’s what matters, that’s the scene that’s going to matter. So, if you have too many other scenes, you’re taking away from the important scenes. You want to give the actors as many takes as they need to build and build and build, and if you have too many scenes and too many pages, you’re asking people to do their work with not enough time. And they’ll do it, but you then can’t be upset when the work comes back and it’s not quite as good as what you want. So you sort of figure it out eventually—48 pages, 50 pages—every show is very different. And again, a crew that’s been working a long time, once you hit Season 3 and 4, these crews are machines. And the actors at that point know their characters so well…they’re a family with the crew, they know the directors, they know the material so well, it’s much easier. But you definitely need to figure out what’s best for everybody early on.

Liz Tigelaar (who worked on OUAT for a little bit in Season 1):
You also don’t want to shoot stuff that’s not going to end up airing. That’s just wasteful. You’re trying to preserve all your resources and money. On Casual, I don’t think we’ve ever shot a scene that didn’t air—that didn’t make it in the cut. I think on Life Unexpected we shot one over two seasons. But it’s like, you just don’t want to waste your time doing that. And that’s your job as EPs, showrunners, creators—that’s the job, your responsibility—to know what’s appropriate and realistic for production. Otherwise, it’s just wasteful and costly.

 

 

It's interesting to hear what other showrunners have to say about this, and how it seems totally opposite to how A&E run things on OUAT. I think the very last part Liz said sums it up succinctly: ultimately, it's the showrunner's job to know what's appropriate and realistic for production. While it's obviously realistic for OUAT to shoot way more material than what's needed because they've been able to do it for six seasons now, is it appropriate? I don't think it is. It seems more wasteful than helpful at this point.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Curio

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

There’s an amount you have to get to make your story work—a certain amount of scenes—but what you don’t want to do is waste an entire day shooting. This is just me because I don’t like this stuff, like shooting an action sequence when I would much rather have a 5-page scene with just two actors talking and make it as riveting as any action sequence. But you need to make sure that that’s what matters, that’s the scene that’s going to matter. So, if you have too many other scenes, you’re taking away from the important scenes

I don't think A&E know what is important or not. Kitchen sink conversations aside, why do we absolutely need a flashback of Regina's funeral-themed birthday, but not backstory for Hades and Zeus? There's a difference between giving new information and giving useful information. Do we really need to know how Emma got her jacket? How does that warrant an entire episode's worth of flashbacks? We know now that Rumple's hatred of fairies started with maternal abandonment, but we could already connect the dots with how Blue helped Bae open the portal that would leave Rumple childless. (Plus, fairies are light magic and Rumple is dark. It's not rocket science to guess there would be a feud.) Let's cut Henry talking to his grandfather about coping with having his memories back, but let's spend an hour running around Dun'Broch with an unlikable heroine. I don't understand their logic. "That's just showbiz."

Edited December 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The network may not intervene at this late date with a show probably in its last couple of seasons, but the best thing for this series would have been to keep A&E on with some kind of "executive creative consultant" role and hire someone else to do the showrunning. They could let A&E have their "wouldn't it be cool if" ideas and be part of the brainstorming, then have someone else in charge of running the execution to make sure the plots flowed and were decently paced and the scripts were the right length. They do come up with some really great ideas, and some of their twists are even brilliant. They're just terrible at execution. They don't know how to pace a story, they're obsessed with surprise to the point that there's no setup at all, they don't know how to write character scenes that still advance the plot and so they avoid them, and they're so ADD as writers that they skim through everything and jump from idea to idea without really developing anything. And then there's that script length problem. Some writers on the staff are better than others (or their bosses) at executing individual stories, but it comes back to the showrunners when the plots are lurching all over the place. The network should have realized that a train wreck was in store back in 2B when the plot started splintering and the ratings tanked, and they should have brought in a new showrunner for season 3. Now it's probably too late because a new person would have too much baggage and damage to recover from. They've already skimmed past and tossed aside so much material, made up and broken so many magical rules, and the characters are all over the place.

[Curio]

30 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

The network should have realized that a train wreck was in store back in 2B when the plot started splintering and the ratings tanked, and they should have brought in a new showrunner for season 3. Now it's probably too late because a new person would have too much baggage and damage to recover from.

 

In a way, the Neverland arc might have saved A&E's jobs because if that arc tanked, I think ABC would have thought a lot harder about replacing them as showrunners. But since 3A was such an improvement and a revitalization for the series, it probably gave the ABC execs enough faith in A&E to right the ship and they just blamed Season 2 on the sophomore slump. 

[KingOfHearts]

Now that I think about it, some of the flashbacks are like those direct-to-DVD sequels to Disney movies. We didn't need to know what happened after Hunchback of Notre Dame, or see the lives of Lady and the Tramp's puppies. We didn't need the play-by-play of Tarzan's childhood or watch the three male soldiers from Mulan get hitched. What lacks purpose lacks quality. If your agenda is weak, then it deserves an equally weak story. 

Flashbacks on Once are used to:
* Mirror or contrast a point or moral lesson in the present in order to make it more obvious or provide something for a character to remember in order to change their mind.  (3x02, the lesson is "embrace who you are". 4x20, Regina's happiness is her choice, not an exclusive of having a boyfriend.)
* Provide necessary plot exposition. (3x19, we learn how the 2nd curse came about. 5x08, we see how Hook became a DO.)
* Fill in a one-off character story for a centric co-featuring a guest character. (1x14, we see Nova's story with Grumpy. In 6x06, we meet Captain Nemo.)
* Provide useless plot exposition. (3x18, we see the circumstances surrounding Zelena's birth in its entirety. In 5x12, it's revealed how Henry Sr. got trapped in the box.)

And that's about it.

Edited December 3, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

How common is it to drop the creators of a series, though?  "Once" is A&E"s baby... is it realistic to expect them to be replaced?  

I have doubts that think there's anything wrong with their work.  They keep doing what we consider to be "mistakes", which means they think Regina HAS been given a good redemption arc, that we ARE seeing more than enough of Emma/Snow, that Rumple IS still a complex grey character, etc.  

[Shanna Marie]

There have been a lot of cases of the creators moving on to create new shows while retaining that kind of creative consultant/executive producer type title and maybe contributing one episode a year. It's possible that networks have offered opportunities to create new shows as a way of getting problem showrunners out of the way. They could keep a potential new series in development hell while stringing along the creators for long enough to get someone else in and straighten things out on the original show that's a network's bread and butter. Firing the creator happens less often, but does happen. One of the infamous cases was Don Bellisario, who created NCIS and got fired and replaced, not even staying on in any capacity. He was getting scripts done really late and even rewriting as they were shooting, which meant the cast and crew were having to work crazy hours to stay on schedule. Mark Harmon used his clout to basically say "either he goes or I go," and the network figured that far more people were watching because of Mark Harmon than for whoever was running the show, so the creator got booted. Harmon has a producer credit on the show now, but I don't know if that's something he had then so that he had a little extra clout. I don't know that anyone on Once has that kind of clout or leverage. Robert Carlyle has some cred, but I don't think the show would sink entirely without him or his character. Ditto with Ginny Goodwin (I'm not sure we'd notice Snow's absence). It would probably have to come from above, like if they were getting a lot of focus group feedback that led them to believe that ratings would improve if the show got retooled, but I'm not sure they'd bother at this stage in the show's life cycle. I believe the NCIS thing happened in season 2-3. It's something that should have happened if not with the dive in season 2 then when the Frozen boost was lost, and then some, in season 4.

[Camera One]

Using KingofHeart's scheme from above for Season 6.

Mirror or contrast a point or moral lesson in the present in order to make it more obvious or provide something for a character to remember in order to change their mind.  

(somewhat 6x3 for Cinderella's character)

(somewhat 6x6 for Hook's character)

Provide necessary plot exposition.

None

Fill in a one-off character story for a centric co-featuring a guest character.

6x2 - "A Bitter Draught" - This was a so-called Snowing centric, but they didn't really have an emotional conflict, so it was more about featuring "The Count of Something Like Cristo" and The Evil Queen.

6x3 - "The Other Shoe" - While this episode DID affect Emma's mindset somewhat, the flashback itself was pretty much a one-off story.  For Cinderella, it did somewhat mirror/contrast what happened in past and present.

6x4 - "Strange Case" - Would this count as "necessary plot exposition"?  I don't think so, since this case seemed very different from the Regina/The Evil Queen one.

6x5 - "Street Rats" - 'Nuff said.  Tip: Don't google Street Rats because something else comes up.

6x6 - "Dark Waters" - I put it here for Nemo but I suppose the episode was somewhat to mirror past and present for Hook?  Not sure about that...

Provide useless plot exposition

6x7 - "Heartless" - While the scenes gave us some nice Snowing interaction, the whole Sapling of True Love was pointless. and the Writers failed to give Snowing anything deep or emotional to work with beyond resigning themselves to a horrible fate yet again.

6x9 - "Changeling" - Yet another Servant Belle flashback to fill in that time she did laundry and that time she polished the silverware.  Threw in a reveal about Rumple's mother, but I can't say this was actual "necessary" plot exposition.

Edited December 3, 2016 by Camera One

[Camera One]

I didn't realize each episode takes an entire month to write.

https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/802238592244469760

[Rumsy4]

Wow!! They have literally no excuse for the number of messups.

[Mari]

Also, a little frightening considering their continuity and logic issues.

[Free]

21 hours ago, Camera One said:

I didn't realize each episode takes an entire month to write.

https://twitter.com/AdamHorowitzLA/status/802238592244469760

It sure doesn't feel like it.

12 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Wow!! They have literally no excuse for the number of messups.

None at all.

[Camera One]

Quote

“Some of the fun of this first half of this season is we’ve really tried to do that season 1 vibe,” Kitsis says.

It's December, and 10 episodes later, and he STILL believes that?

Edited December 5, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

It's December, and 10 episodes later, and he STILL believes that?

Well, you see, tonight they copied the wedding scene from the Pilot. And earlier in the arc, we had a Cinderella episode. So, it's exactly like S1.

[Camera One]

Oh silly me.  You're right.  An anvil just dropped on my head and now I see.

[InsertWordHere]

Snow pulled the sword out of Charming's scabbard (boy that sounds a little dirty)! Emma blew out a blue star candle! It's totally just like Season One.