The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[YaddaYadda]

13 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Author plot is worse than Greg/Tamara. There, I said it.

They had the good sense of dropping Greg/Tamara, or maybe it's dropping that story that made it that bad. But the Dragon lives! Or maybe he's dead now. I'm beyond caring at this point.

I think the UW was pretty terrible. Maybe it's because it's still fresh in my mind, but I thought the whole thing with Hades was just really bad. Nothing with him made much sense at all. 

[KingOfHearts]

To elaborate, Greg/Tamara wasn't riddled with a million plot holes. Yes it was goofy and convoluted, but at the end of the day, it was strung together better than the Author plot. It didn't take over an entire season with its stupidity, either. As YaddaYadda said, the writers logically dropped it. They didn't wave it in our faces as a philosophy or explanation for huge chunks of the show's mythology. What's unfortunate is that Greg and Tamara never got to function as independent characters. Greg was wrapped up in the Woegina fest, and Tamara was just a plot device for all the OMG moments with August and Neal. I'm not saying I would have wanted to see more of them (they're annoying), but their initial concept had potential.

The Author plot was just offensively asinine on so many levels. It took any development Regina, Snow, and Charming had in S3 and just ripped it to shreds. 

[Camera One]

The anti-magic group concept was barely elaborated upon, beyond the name "Home Office" and so-called intrigue like Greg skulking around in the background taking video.  I don't consider it much of an arc at all, and felt like a tacked-on undeveloped idea.  Much of it was for the "surprise" twists that Greg was sleeping with Tamara, Tamara was a secret operative, and Greg had a life-long vendetta against Regina.  

Linking them with Peter Pan resulted in convolution which was never explained, including that dumb Rambaldi-style (see "Alias") prophesy about Henry, to Wendy's brothers' mission to help Peter Pan find that wretched child.

With The Author, there were so many more elements which resulted in so many more plot holes.  As others mentioned, it felt like they were making it up as they went along, adding elements and details meant as teasers but ultimately making no sense.  The Author concept ultimately was more damaging, resulting in ret-cons and contradictory world-building and morality.

I would say both were equally poorly written, in different ways.

[Souris]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

The Author plot is worse than Greg/Tamara. There, I said it.

Yes. Very much so. I'm a little torn on whether the Author plot is worse than Zelena-is-Marian-and-gets-pregnant-by-Robin or not. It's close.

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Souris said:

Yes. Very much so. I'm a little torn on whether the Author plot is worse than Zelena-is-Marian-and-gets-pregnant-by-Robin or not. It's close.

This is just my opinion, but at least that gave us Zelena back. The Author plot gave us nothing but an underdeveloped AU.

Edited July 19, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Souris]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

This is just my opinion, but at least that gave us Zelena back. The Author plot gave us nothing but an underdeveloped AU.

Getting Zelena back is not a plus in my book!

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Souris said:

I'm a little torn on whether the Author plot is worse than Zelena-is-Marian-and-gets-pregnant-by-Robin or not. It's close.

I consider that part of the Author plot, since Marian being back is what made Regina decide she couldn't get a happy ending without Author intervention and then started the whole thing, and then it turning out to have been Zelena all along ended up negating the premise of the entire storyline. That bit was what made the plot even more ridiculous than it already was. The premise of the plot was that Marian's return meant Regina couldn't get a happy ending, and it turned out that Marian really hadn't returned. It wasn't some mystical Author messing with Regina's life. It was Zelena, and it had nothing to do with Regina's villain status.

The Greg/Tamara plot really only required one character to be an idiot -- Neal, and that was totally in character for him. Emma figured it out quite early, only Neal blocked her from following up on her suspicions and evidence, and then Hook took a look at what they were doing and bailed on them and clued in everyone else. The Author plot required every character to behave like a total idiot -- Regina for coming up with the idea in the first place and then everyone else for thinking it was a good idea and supporting it. Then after the resolution, no one seems to have questioned what they'd been doing. There was no "oops, what were we thinking" when it all went horribly wrong after Regina decided she didn't need it, after all.

[KAOS Agent]

It's not about the characters acting like idiots. It's that the writers completely missed the idea that they had Regina and the Queens of Darkness on the exact same mission, but somehow it wasn't okay for one group to do the same thing that another group wanted to do. If changing the book is a bad thing, then it's bad for everyone, not just certain people that others determine aren't okay to write a new story.

[TheGreenKnight]

I enjoyed the Zelena-is-Marian plot. Of the other two, it's hard to say. I like both concepts, but they both failed spectacularly in the execution. I'd say Greg/Tamara was worse because it involved Neal being a jerk to Emma about Tamara when I already didn't like him. And love triangles... I was okay with the Author plot until we actually met the Author himself, and then it was a freefall into the trash heap on top of undermining the Queens entirely. I mean, what was their purpose when the storyline ended up more about the Author and Zelena anyway?

[Writing Wrongs]

I don't know if anyone here is watching Dead of Summer, but it is really bad. We should be thankful Once is as good as it is.

[Curio]

7 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

I don't know if anyone here is watching Dead of Summer, but it is really bad. We should be thankful Once is as good as it is.

I'm still trudging through it, unfortunately, but only because I find it funny spotting all of A&E's writing tropes from OUAT making their way over to that show.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Curio

[Writing Wrongs]

The "box" thing reminds me of August's mysterious box. Ends up being nothing.

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, Writing Wrongs said:

The "box" thing reminds me of August's mysterious box. Ends up being nothing.

So I guess someone will run away because someone else knows who they are or what they did, and someone else will take the fall for their crimes?

Edited July 20, 2016 by YaddaYadda

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

It's not about the characters acting like idiots. It's that the writers completely missed the idea that they had Regina and the Queens of Darkness on the exact same mission, but somehow it wasn't okay for one group to do the same thing that another group wanted to do.

Well, that, too. But the reason the characters acting like idiots is a problem to me is that it's a sign of a bad plot. If it would entirely ruin your story line if the characters didn't act like idiots in a way that was out of character, your plot isn't viable. So, with the Home Office stuff, Neal was the only one being really dumb, and it was sadly consistent with his character to totally disregard Emma while justifying himself. With the Author plot, I can believe Regina coming up with that dumb of a theory. Henry's character is all over the place and has certainly done some dumb stuff aside from that, but the Henry at that time seems more likely to have given Regina a "but you aren't a villain" pep talk than to have believed that the book was keeping her from getting a happy ending. By the time Emma gets roped in, it completely loses credibility because there is no way the character of Emma as she was established would for a moment buy the idea of tracking down the Author to change Regina's fate. She might have humored Regina out of some misplaced sense of guilt, but she wouldn't have been all-in and called it the best idea ever. Snow might have given some speech about having hope because it's not an ending, so she doesn't know whether or not she's got a happy ending. Just about everything that happened in 4B was based on the characters being pod people so that they didn't react to events the way they really should have. If the characters were being at all in character, then either Henry shuts it down as soon as Regina mentions it or Emma laughs at it at the end of 4A, and then things go off in an entirely different direction.

But it's also really bad plotting that the heroes are trying to do exactly the same thing the villains are trying to do, for the same reasons, and it's good for the heroes to do it but bad for the villains to do it.

Worst of all, and the biggest character assassination, is that even though the outcome of the story was that Regina realized she was wrong and that the villains did what Regina had been trying to do and it was a terrible thing, no one else ever acknowledged that maybe Operation Mongoose had been a really bad idea. There was never a "Doh! What were we thinking?" headslap moment, no "we never should have done that." Even Henry, who infamously said he never should have brought Emma to town to break the curse (because, yeah, that's what caused all the trouble) never said anything about how they shouldn't have done Operation Mongoose, not even while he was in danger in the AU or when he saw Hook die.

[Camera One]

The other problem was they never truly defined what The Author could or could not do.  Would he be able to write a "happy ending" going forward, or go back and change circumstances so that the person got a happy ending?  It was already ridiculous when Rumple bought onto the idea in the 4B premiere.  And even then, it wasn't defined.  So if Maleficent got her happy ending, would Aurora and Philip die in the past, or would Maleficent tell The Author to kill them?  And then in the end, The Author wrote a happy ending for Rumple, BUT it was all inside of some looping Book, so was that actually reality?  Up until that 4B finale, The Author would just write something and it would happen for real.  IF Regina had asked The Author to give her a happy ending, what would he have done?  Would she end up in a looping book where she would be married to Robin Hood?  It STILL doesn't make any sense.    

[Curio]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

The other problem was they never truly defined what The Author could or could not do.

Not only that, but they didn't even define what Regina's happy ending would be. How can you string along an audience for an entire season promising to deliver Regina's happy ending when she and the audience don't even know what that is? Talk about your lack of anticipation.

[YaddaYadda]

5 minutes ago, Curio said:

Not only that, but they didn't even define what Regina's happy ending would be. How can you string along an audience for an entire season promising to deliver Regina's happy ending when she and the audience don't even know what that is? Talk about your lack of anticipation.

Didn't they say that it's her finding her place in the world or something like that? I know, it's very vague.

[Curio]

5 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Didn't they say that it's her finding her place in the world or something like that? I know, it's very vague.

They did say that vague phrase, but they waited until like episode 20 to announce it. They dropped the seeds of Regina rewriting her happy ending in episode 1 or 2.

[Camera One]

Their cryptic writing style makes it difficult to tell if the Writers actually know the answer to the questions, or if they're stalling and delaying the decision for later.

For example, it was in the 4B premiere that they actually had someone (in this case, Blue) reveal that The Author and The Sorcerer were two different people.  Yet she didn't even know that The Sorcerer = Merlin?  I cry foul on that.  And if she wasn't sharing, why?  And why not consult her in the 4B finale/5A premiere? Clearly, A&E didn't work any of that out until the end of Season 4 when they had to plan for Season 5.  

And then they had Blue say no one had seen The Author for a long time, but Isaac was walking around the Enchanted Forest.  Surely her fairy network would have seen that.  Blue also said the book had a lot of power, when it's the freak'in Pen who can die like a person apparently.  They also had Blue say that Regina's idea of asking The Author for a happy ending "was not crazy at all".  Huh?  And then Blue's suggestion that they might figure out where The Author was because he left behind "clues in his work".  LOL!  This is how you get fanwanks that Blue was just trolling everyone.  Henry's writing and illustrations look exactly the same as Isaac's!  

Edited July 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Mitch]

The Author plot was hamstrung by the screwed up timeline. When these idiots decisions to make everything that happened in the EF...happen in our timeframe...i.e. 30 years ago our time was 30 years ago their time. The whole concept was screwed from the start...(why did we have these stories for hundreds of years??? Why did Gold tell Regina in S1 that the curse took them all through time and space..) I know they were stuck with that concept with S2's idea to send Snow and Emma to the EF after the curse broke, but that could easily be explained as...all the magical realms were frozen in time during the Curse..so from the point the Curse was cast to Emma breaking it caused everyone (all realms and SB) to freeze..in their case, it was hundreds of years, in SB's case it was 28 years from "landing" in our world.  The Author should have existed outside of time...and he would have the ability to visit each time frame and watch.

I liked the concept as the book needed explaining, and I even can get not just Regina but all of them questioning..."Who wrote it, why does this world have our stories...do we have free will, was our past dictated and is our future?" But of course, its all "They are going to write me a happy ending," and Regina and the rest were all given stupid pills and childish motivations.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Curio said:

Not only that, but they didn't even define what Regina's happy ending would be. How can you string along an audience for an entire season promising to deliver Regina's happy ending when she and the audience don't even know what that is?

One of the best pieces of writing advice I've heard is that the protagonist's goal must be so concrete and specific that you can picture the scene in which she achieves it -- you know exactly what would happen and what it would look like -- even if you're not planning to let her achieve the goal or are planning to give it to her in a different way. Plus, the audience should be able to imagine what it would look like if she achieved the goal. They may not be right, but that's how you can surprise the audience if you give it in a different way that still works. So, what would Regina's "Happy Ending" goal scene have been? Kissing Robin over Marian's dead body? Marian getting cured and coming back to town with Robin and Roland but giving up Robin so he could be with his true love, Regina? How did Regina want it to play out? What would she have had the Author write if she hadn't changed her mind? What ended up happening, that Marian had actually been dead all along, was probably pretty close to what Regina might have wanted, even if she might not have asked for it, which was why her epiphany didn't work so well. She gave up her goal after getting what she wanted. The problem was that I don't think Regina had a vision for what the happy ending she was going to ask for would have looked like. The writers didn't seem to have bothered figuring it out since they probably were aiming at the "you write your own happy endings" bit (and they seem to have thought that would be a big surprise). The audience could only imagine the kind of stuff I just listed, along with a big "I write my own happy ending" realization (though I imagined her doing that before she got what she wanted so she could then be rewarded, not the other way around). And the other characters didn't seem to have any idea what they were helping Regina get. I think the Charmings and Emma just thought the Author would write something verifying that Regina was now a hero so she'd no longer be operating under villain rules and would therefore have the same chance at a happy ending as they had, but that was never specified, and it didn't sound like that's what Regina wanted.

[Rumsy4]

The writers left Regina's Happy Ending undefined becasue any overt goal of breaking up Marian and Robin, or killing Marian to free Robin would make Regina and Team "Hero" look bad. So instead, they made them all look like thoughtless craven idiots. The writers didn't specify whether Isaac was supposed to be changing the past to make Regina go for Robin at the Tavern. If so, then--no Henry. How was anyone okay with that? If Isaac was to write a HE for Regina in the present, was Regina secretly thinking of asking Isaac to write out Marian like she later asked him to writer out Zelena? How does one retroactively write a person out of existence? And what about all the repercussions that would have on other events? Regina gave Emma hell for bringing Marian back from the past. But it's okay if she gets some shady Author to change the past instead? I have to agree that the Author plot has been the worst arc in the Show. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Camera One]

Quote

I think the Charmings and Emma just thought the Author would write something verifying that Regina was now a hero so she'd no longer be operating under villain rules and would therefore have the same chance at a happy ending as they had

I think this is the closest to what the Writers intended, at least from the way Regina and villains kept lamenting they couldn't get happy endings.  I don't believe Regina meant for Robin to be her happy ending.  She was resigned to the fact that Robin would be with Marian by that point. 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

22 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

How does one retroactively write a person out of existence?

I never realized the irony that Regina hoping to eliminate Zelena from existence in Season 4 eventually lead to Zelena's boyfriend attempting to wipe Regina from existence as payback in Season 5. Damn it Robin, why did you have to go and be heroic...

[Camera One]

So was Hades still planning to enact his big plan to alter the past?  It seems like he (aka the Writers) kinda forgot about it and decided he just wanted to take over that vast kingdom of Storybrooke instead.  Remember when that was Arthur's plan for 5 seconds in 5A?  And now Hyde has it.  These villains have small goals.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

19 minutes ago, Camera One said:

It seems like he (aka the Writers) kinda forgot about it and decided he just wanted to take over that vast kingdom of Storybrooke instead.  Remember when that was Arthur's plan for 5 seconds in 5A?  And now Hyde has it.  These villains have small goals.

Not to mention Pan turning Storybrooke into the new Neverland. And Cora trying to make herself into the Dark One so she could rule Storybrooke. And Ingrid trying to kill everyone in Storybrooke so she could have it all to herself with Elsa and Emma. Is it the villains with small goals or the writers with small imaginations?

[Mari]

20 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

 Is it the villains with small goals or the writers with small imaginations?

I'm going with C: BOTH.  Both is the proper answer.  (Especially with Hades.  Yikes.)

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 (Especially with Hades.  Yikes.)

Immortal god, ruler of an entire realm, gatekeeper of death... is a sick puppy in love with Zelena. Boring and unimaginative. 

Quote

Not to mention Pan turning Storybrooke into the new Neverland. And Cora trying to make herself into the Dark One so she could rule Storybrooke. And Ingrid trying to kill everyone in Storybrooke so she could have it all to herself with Elsa and Emma. Is it the villains with small goals or the writers with small imaginations?

Villains act like Storybrooke is some strategic point in a war. I'm pretty sure they're just desperate to have magic and modern day amenities without anyone bothering them.

Edited July 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

I'm pretty sure they're just desperate to have magic and modern day amenities without anyone bothering them.

Just bring the modern day amenities back to the Enchanted Forest! Introduce electricity! It's not that hard.

[Camera One]

The Writers have never explained why they don't just bring everyone over to the Enchanted Forest and implement modern conveniences.  Why do they need to stay in our world?  To take their annual trip to NYC so they don't waste Neal's apartment?   Aurora and Philip renovated an entire freak'in castle, and they don't feel like enjoying their newly chosen tapestries?  No one ever asks A&E this, but it's something that really needs to be explained now that there are a billion and one portals.

[Curio]

2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

No one ever asks A&E this, but it's something that really needs to be explained now that there are a billion and one portals.

Seriously. If they want to live with modern amenities, freaking move to NYC or literally any other city. The only people who benefit from the magic+modern combo of Storybrooke are the very few magical people in Storybrooke. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure 95% of the population in Storybrooke doesn't have magic and wouldn't miss it much if they moved to Boston or Chicago or wherever. Why choose to live in Storybrooke when you can't cross the town line and there's constantly villains trying to take it over? Everyone can live the same lives they already have in Storybrooke, but with more freedoms and safety, if they move back to the Enchanted Forest. If Regina can poof a magical monkey toy out of thin air, surely she can poof up some electrical wires.

[Camera One]

Maybe living in Storybrooke resulted in everyone getting free food and accommodations?  But if that were the case, I'm not sure why anyone works in Storybrooke.  Like why would Bo Beep be working as a butcher.  Forget the next arc, the Writers need to sit down and figure out the ground rules for this universe.  I would rather see Emma and Snow washing dishes for an hour chatting about their experiences in Season 5 than Guest Star #5000 and whatever dumb twist they have in store.

[Curio]

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Forget the next arc, the Writers need to sit down and figure out the ground rules for this universe.

"Hey guys, we've been at this show for half a decade now. Maybe now's a good time to establish some ground rules about our universe..."

[Camera One]

I suspect they won't come to that realization, even after the show is over.

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Maybe living in Storybrooke resulted in everyone getting free food and accommodations?  But if that were the case, I'm not sure why anyone works in Storybrooke.  Like why would Bo Beep be working as a butcher.  Forget the next arc, the Writers need to sit down and figure out the ground rules for this universe.  I would rather see Emma and Snow washing dishes for an hour chatting about their experiences in Season 5 than Guest Star #5000 and whatever dumb twist they have in store.

If the show actually committed to the "We Are Both" concept, it would make more sense that some citizens just want to stick with their normal jobs. But Bo Peep in Storybrooke is written the same as Bo Peep from EF, so her "real world" personality is made moot.

Edited July 21, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Mitch]

Well Bo Beep gets to chop things up...(she seemed a tad bit..touchy) and I have a feeling she is using the place as a front for a gambling den or something shady..I loved Bo Beep and wish she would return and give Regina and Zelena some lip.

[Camera One]

Joke of the day, y'all.

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA
@FordMiss @lily65675 it would be awful and damaging to change plans because of a "leak." Stories should be organic.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

 Stories should be organic.

A&E's stories may as will be filled with GMO's. There's nothing "organic" about them.

Edited July 22, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Because I think the characters here are usually more inconsistent than complex, but I'm personally most likely to accept a complex relationship from these two characters particularly. 

This show tends to appear "complex" when in reality it's just inconsistent or just distracting with all the moving parts that don't actually move anywhere. Take Regina, for example. She seems like a deep, complex character because she has gotten so much screen time, major dilemmas, and backstory. She gets the most drama to work with, as well as actions to take. And while I believe she is one of the more fleshed out and thought-provoking characters of the show, she is shallow in many aspects. Her double-mindedness between good and evil is not due to gray character writing, but inconsistency mandated by the plot. So while there appears to be two sides to the coin, she is one or the other depending on whatever A&E need her to be at any given moment.

Many viewers say the show is difficult to follow because of its complexity, but if you analyze it long enough, it's not that rich. All the flashing lights and constant focus shifting make it look like a lot is going on. In reality, the formula is just being repeated albeit with different settings and names. At the end of every arc is what appears to be a new development, however it is usually just a reset to fool the audience into thinking the show is dynamic. When casual watchers get confused by the show's mechanics, it's not because it's a science to be studied. It's because it don't make sense any way you shape it. There's contrivances out of nowhere that no one can predict or understand. How can anyone take that seriously?

I do think some areas of the show are complex. Most of the characters, including Regina, are intriguing and detailed. The problems really start at S4 when A&E begin retreading every single arc and implementing the most ridiculous retcons and contrivances. It goes from elaborately design to throwing random crap at the screen and seeing what sticks.

[Souris]

The show's narrative is the writing equivalent of when figure skaters try to make it look like they're doing a lot by flailing their arms, distracting you from their simple footwork.

[Camera One]

Quote

So while there appears to be two sides to the coin, she is one or the other depending on whatever A&E need her to be at any given moment.

Yes, and I think this is the case with quite a few of the characters.  Sad-face Rumple vs. the Muhahaha one.  The Belle who loves Rumple vs. the Belle who is critical of his morality.  The Snow who's full of Hope! and the Snow who's depressed and needs a pick-me-up.  

They also equate complexity with writing the character in flashback as being the polar opposite.  The Evil Queen is flamboyantly evil while Young Regina is just as sweet and open as you'd expect Snow to be.  Rumple is ultra powerful but Previous Rumple was a complete coward.  Zelena is the Wicked Witch but before, she was just abused and so caring about her father.  Hook is bad-ass pirate but for a time, he was the perfect sailor boy.  Emma is all WALLS! but just watch Younger Emma be so trusting and naive, even after prison and giving birth!    Charming is such a master swordsman, but he was a weak shepherd boy who needed Anna to teach him some moves.  Liam seemed so upstanding but he had a shipload of skeletons in his closet.  Eva seemed like the perfect mother, but she tripped poor people as a teenager.  

Look at 5B... We need to find Hook, who's in danger and being beaten up!  Operation Firebird first!  Numero uno, defeat the single three-headed dog that guards the entrance!  Success, but let's use a completely different entrance... ok, good, found Hook so now Hades doesn't care about him anymore!  Time to play, Gain a Soul, Lose a Soul with Hades for a few episodes.  How much of what happened was pointless... Snow going home early, for example.  How did that help the story?  Hades blackmailing Rumple?  A completely moot point, PLUS Hades doesn't even hold a grudge against him!   Secret pages about Zelena?  Don't worry, Zelena will just tell Regina all when she arrives.  They pretty much just ditched Operation Firebird when they had to escape.  It is all very, very busy... 

Edited July 23, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

On 7/20/2016 at 4:34 PM, Camera One said:

Quote

I think the Charmings and Emma just thought the Author would write something verifying that Regina was now a hero so she'd no longer be operating under villain rules and would therefore have the same chance at a happy ending as they had

I think this is the closest to what the Writers intended, at least from the way Regina and villains kept lamenting they couldn't get happy endings.

That would have been a really interesting concept to explore, if there really was some kind of force that would keep even the former villains from achieving even their good goals unless the book got updated to make them into heroes. Of course, the problem there is that Regina hasn't actually been given a "villain" outcome. Her evil scheme succeeded. Yeah, the curse was eventually broken, but she did cast it without being stopped and she got to spend 28 years watching her enemies suffer. She's faced no consequences since then. She hasn't lost anything other than total control over the town, and then later Robin, but that's still a better outcome than the heroes have faced. To really use the "villains don't get happy endings" concept, they'd have had to show a distinct difference in outcomes between heroes and villains. It would have even been kind of amusing if it really were the case that their universe doesn't allow villains to be successful -- no matter how brilliant and well thought-out their plan was, it was doomed to failure.

On 7/23/2016 at 0:38 AM, Camera One said:

They also equate complexity with writing the character in flashback as being the polar opposite.

The issue there is that they need to do a better job of connecting the dots -- showing those polar opposite traits in the present, expressed in a different way, or showing more of the transition between past and present, or showing the seeds of the present personality buried in the past. I think they were reasonably successful with Hook because one thing about his character is that he's all-in. He was 100 percent gung-ho as a pirate, and now he's 100 percent, die to save the world, as a hero, so naturally when he was in the navy, he'd have been the perfect naval officer (we didn't yet know about the hero thing at the time we got that flashback, but it fits into what we know of him now). I think there was a kind of romantic idealism about him even as a pirate, which reflects his gung-ho sense of wonder in the navy. We also saw that even at his most upright, he had that hair-trigger temper and tendency toward rash overreaction, and that sense of outrage at injustice that leads him down the path to revenge. So while there was the initial shock at seeing him in a uniform and scolding people about rum, when you look below the surface, you find basically the same person, just expressing his core traits in a different way. I guess you could say the "Brothers Jones" flashback showed that the goody-goody officer was just a blip in his life and that he's always struggled with his temper, but it still works. I just wish we could see more of his slide from the one-ship war against the king's betrayal to the pirate who first met Milah.

I think the drastic difference between young Regina and the Evil Queen is a little less successful because we see very little of that young Regina even in supposedly reformed Regina. Yeah, she'll get a little kid out of danger, which is consistent, but otherwise she might as well have been a totally different character. Maybe what we need is a few more flashbacks of the days when she was with Daniel -- was the narcissism always there? How much of that was really love and how much was latching onto affection and seeing him as her escape from a life she hated? She couldn't have been that good a person if she jumped so quickly from loving young Snow to fantasizing about strangling her, even though she knew Cora was the one who killed Daniel. Maybe we need her equivalent of the "Brothers Jones" flashback to show some hints that she had some personality issues that were brought out by what she went through.

[Mathius]

That's why I actually like Killian's portrayal in "The Brothers Jones" flashback too.  To have him as just always a pure straight-laced lieutenant who then makes a complete 180 into a temperamental, alcoholic pirate over Liam's death isn't any better than sweet, pure Regina suddenly becoming narcissistic and murderously evil over Daniel's death (well, really over his failed resurrection).  Showing that he had these kinds of issues before and that it was Liam who curbed them and made him aspire to be that straight-laced lieutenant makes his progression make more sense in retrospect. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by Mathius

[Faemonic]

12 hours ago, Mathius said:

 Showing that he had these kinds of issues before and that it was Liam who curbed them and made him aspire to be that straight-laced lieutenant makes his progression make more sense in retrospect. 

Aw! I haven't watched that episode, but that's been my headcanon since/despite Good Form! Barrie's Captain Hook was described as 1) always wondering if he'd good form today, like his conscience nags him, because he has one, but and this be a big but I cannot lie: 2) his eyes glow red with delight when he kills somebody.

 

So I liked to think that Liam would have picked up on mischievous or outright sadistic behavior from baby Killian, and used his big bro powers to go, "What the devil is wrong with you? Be good!" And it works, because Killian actually does have a conscience and forms sincere empathic attachments. He just has...other...tendencies as well.

 

To bring it back to the writers...does this mean that whoever usually writes Hook actually did as much research on the source material as Colin? (Because Colin did research, he quoted a speech that Barrie gave...and when I tried to search online for the full text of that specific speech back then, I only found information on how difficult the full text of that speech is to find. I don't expect writers—or actors—to go as far as corporate espionage, but...it would be nice to think these writers cared?)

[Shanna Marie]

1 minute ago, Faemonic said:

I don't expect writers—or actors—to go as far as corporate espionage, but...it would be nice to think these writers cared?)

What we see in that flashback doesn't seem to reflect book Hook or Barrie's thoughts. It's more about young Killian being a drunk screwup, not getting into stuff like enjoying killing. I don't really get the feeling that Hook ever enjoyed killing. It's more that he has a really hot temper and very poor impulse control, so he does rash stuff that he later regrets, and that can include killing. He doesn't seem to have developed the interest in Good Form until he got into the navy and decided to take advantage of the opportunity to turn over a new leaf and no longer be the drunken screwup he used to be, trying to live up to his brother's example.

I suspect the writers' research consisted of remembering having seen the Disney cartoon and maybe the Dustin Hoffman Hook once when they were kids. Colin's the one who read the book and dug into everything Barrie wrote or said about the character (though it sounded like he'd read the book long before he was cast in the role).

[Camera One]

Did the Disney cartoon use the term "Good Form" in regards to Hook?

Edited July 26, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

9 hours ago, Camera One said:

Did the Disney cartoon use the term "Good Form" in regards to Hook?

I don't remember. I tried to watch it when it was on the Disney Channel not too terribly long ago, but after we were shown Tinkerbell and the mermaids and Tiger Lily all going into bitchy mean girl mode because they were all keen on Peter and therefore hated Wendy, whose only job was to keep house and play mother, I hit the "I just can't with this" point and turned it off, and I think that was before Hook even really showed up. I hadn't realized just how offensive that movie was on so many levels.

[Faemonic]

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

What we see in that flashback doesn't seem to reflect book Hook or Barrie's thoughts. It's more about young Killian being a drunk

Oops. Ehh, guess that also works, "character before mythology" as A&E said.

I suspect the writers' research consisted of remembering having seen the Disney cartoon and maybe the Dustin Hoffman Hook once when they were kids.

10 hours ago, Camera One said:

Did the Disney cartoon use the term "Good Form" in regards to Hook?

As I recall...yes in the cartoon movie? Hoffman's Hook definitely did.

[Mathius]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't remember. I tried to watch it when it was on the Disney Channel not too terribly long ago, but after we were shown Tinkerbell and the mermaids and Tiger Lily all going into bitchy mean girl mode because they were all keen on Peter and therefore hated Wendy, whose only job was to keep house and play mother, I hit the "I just can't with this" point and turned it off, and I think that was before Hook even really showed up. I hadn't realized just how offensive that movie was on so many levels.

Tiger Lily actually wasn't ever in bitchy mean girl mode, she never interacts with Wendy.  And the mermaids turned up after Hook first showed up.

As for "good form", Disney's Hook says it in a very OOC to Barrie's Hook moment.  When Smee lectures him that shooting a man in the middle of a song isn't good form, Hook replies "Good form, Mr. Smee?  BLAST GOOD FORM!"  Yeeeeeeeeah, not the kind of mindset the original Hook had.

Edited July 26, 2016 by Mathius

[Camera One]

I suppose A&E if they didn't read Barrie's Hook could have gone, Captain Hook's all "Blast Good Form!" so pre-Hook Killian should be ALL about Good Form!