The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Mari]

I never said they do it well. But they've hacked their way through other stories.  If OUaT needs major changes to be the story they want, why haven't they ham-fisted their way to what they do want to tell??

[YaddaYadda]

17 minutes ago, Mari said:

I never said they do it well. But they've hacked their way through other stories.  If OUaT needs major changes to be the story they want, why haven't they ham-fisted their way to what they do want to tell??

I don't think they know what they wanna tell or they know how to, unless they're not interested in doing it. They likely go to other realms because it's oh so cool, but leverage nothing out of those places. Season 5 has been a really good example of that, and so I really question how good the idea of half seasons was in the end. I'm not saying spend a whole season in Neverland, Camelot, or the Underworld, but this season, they basically doubled down because they didn't go realm hopping since 3A.

What angers me the most is how they've already woven in these characters like Merlin (who was killed off after only 6 episodes). Maleficent who has been part of the show since season 1 was retconned into something that became just a sad as hell thing, the Dark One mythology which we barely got anything on, and managed to turn all of that into nothing. It takes a special talent to do that.

They don't even leverage their own stories, or connect the dots between their episodes.

[Curio]

I don't think they ever imagined being on the air this long, so we're stuck in the "tread water until we know it's the final season" stage. They know exactly how they want the show to end and the middle is suffering because of it.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Curio

[RadioGirl27]

1 hour ago, Curio said:

I don't think they ever imagined being on the air this long, so we're stuck in the "tread water until we know it's the final season" stage. They know exactly how they want the show to end and the middle is suffering because of it.

Yeah, this. I think they have a clear idea of the ending (well, more likely just the last shot of the series) and they are just waiting to get there.

[Camera One]

I don't think they see what they're writing as treading water.  They are like a cat with a shiny toy, and they did want they wanted to do with Camelot, the Underworld, Merlin, Hades, Maleficent, etc., and they were ready to move on to the next toy.

I'm not sure we can pin much hope on everything suddenly crystalizing and revved in the final season either, since we can already guess how they want the show to end.  Regina happy and everyone enjoying her lasagna.  

2 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

It takes a special talent to do that.  

Well put.  Very special indeed.

[Selina K]

4 hours ago, Camera One said:

... we can already guess how they want the show to end.  Regina happy and everyone enjoying her lasagna.  

I sort of want to cry now.  I have never thought of this either because I am an idiot or I willfully suppressed it, but how is this not 100% going to happen.  I guess I've always held on to the TWoP version Cindy laid out of the show being Emma's fairytale story.  But you're right, this is totally what will happen.  

I will be over in the corner, whimpering.

[KingOfHearts]

The characters lack interesting long-term objectives. Obviously all of them share the same goal of living comfortably and not dying. But let's look at what else they have:
* Emma: Marry Hook.
* Hook: Marry Emma.
* Regina: Obtain ultimate, everlasting happiness that never wavers.
* Henry: Marry Violet. 
* Snow: None
* Charming: None
* Rumple: Obtain more power. Raise his child and be loved by Belle.
* Belle: Make Rumple a hero, raise her child.
* Zelena: Raise her child.
 

Those goals just aren't very exciting. They either have to do with Regina, weddings, or child-rearing. This is supposed to be a big fantasy show and all the characters are really driven by is settling down and surviving. The writers only take advantage of the setting when it comes to Rumple, who acts as the textbook example of a villain. I guess if this show cared about the everyday life, it wouldn't be so bad that the people of Storybrooke just want peaceful lives. That's not a bad incentive at all, but there's no way to get to that point. The characters aren't actively working toward preventing threats. They just react to whatever comes their way.

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I will be over in the corner, whimpering.

Regina got her revenge. Instead of herself sobbing in the corner, we will be.

Edited June 4, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Those goals just aren't very exciting.

LOL, especially Snow and Charmings'.

That's a symptom of the Writers not writing real people.  After Season 1, many of the characters ceased being three-dimensional human beings with true goals and motivations.  We don't even know what they do for fun or even for work when there isn't a megavillain around trying to kill them all.  

Even Rumple's motivation is nebulous.  Remember when The Snow Queen inferred Storybrooke was too small and he wanted to rule the world?  What does he want even more power for?  He can already do practically anything.  It's never clear.  

Edited June 4, 2016 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

It's pretty common for the heroes' goals to be "simpler" things like love, family, happiness, or peace. Maybe adventure, but they usually learn that love is more important. They only get other, more specific, goals when the villains show up with goals like power, wealth, or world domination. Then the heroes' goal is basically to set things right -- save the victims, stop the villains. In the Disney movies that have their "I want" songs at the beginning, Snow White and Aurora wanted love, Cinderella wanted happiness, Belle wanted adventure and someone who could understand her, Ariel wanted to visit the human world, Rapunzel, Anna, and Jasmine wanted wider horizons.

The challenge with this show is that it's a series that doesn't end with the happy ending. The series mostly takes place after the closing credits of the movies, so the good guys have mostly achieved their personal goals. Snow, Cinderella, Ariel, Anna, and Aurora have found their princes. Belle is the one left sort of hanging because her Beast insists on remaining a Beast. Regina has found some degree of contentment. She's the sort to never be entirely happy, but it's hard to imagine what she could add to her life other than another boyfriend. Emma's goal was to find out who she was, and she has that. Now all that's left is for them to react to the villains' goals, which sometimes leads to temporary personal goals (like saving Hook). In reacting to the villains' goals, they're essentially having the goal of getting back the life they'd found. This is where it would help if we ever got to see that life that's being threatened by the villains and our heroes got to talk about getting back that life as part of their motivation for stopping the villain. The writers keep talking like they think that stuff is boring, but it would really help their storytelling if they showed what was at stake for their heroes, who've all found happiness and don't want to lose it. I think that would add some depth to the "we must stop the villain of the arc" writing.

[Camera One]

I'm looking back at EW's interview with A&E from March.  I was wondering if we viewers could now have answered "Yes", "No", "Can't say" or something else.

Quote

Does Emma still have the darkness if the dagger still calls to her?

KITSIS: We all have darkness within us.

Translation: We forgot about 5A, so no, but let me just say something completely generic.

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Will conflict arise between Milah (Rachel Shelley) and Emma over Hook?

KITSIS: Can’t say.

Because what conflict can you have in 2 minutes?

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Will Once Upon a Time have a version of Queen Persephone?

HOROWITZ: Can’t say.

Translation: What are you talking about?

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Does the well in the Underworld work the same way as it does in Storybrooke?

KITSIS: We don’t even see it.

Translation: Memory lapse.

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Will James try to come between Snow (Ginnifer Goodwin) and Charming (Josh Dallas)?

KITSIS: He will try to get between Charming and his life, yeah.

Being literal with this one, I see.

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Is Regina the savior of the Underworld?

KITSIS: I think everyone is trying to be. It’s a place where heroes have a chance to be heroic. It’s a place where sometimes our pasts come back to haunt us, and you have a chance to find closure. Everyone has an opportunity to be a Savior at some point in their own history.

I think a follow-up question is how do you define "Savior" because his answer seems to be everyone is the Savior?

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Is Hook a particularly important soul to Hades?

KITSIS: Can’t say.

Still can't answer this one after the entire arc, actually.

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Will we see Glinda (Sunny Mabrey) and/or the other Witches of Oz again?

KITSIS: No, but we will be in Oz. You will see munchkins.

Will there be shrimp at the buffet? No, but there will be cutlery.  Thanks.

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Is Dopey (Jeffrey Kaiser) still a tree?

KITSIS: He is right now.

So he is still a tree as of the end of 5B too?  Clearly a priority...

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Did Merlin (Elliot Knight) create the author quill/ink/book?

KITSIS: Can’t say.

Translation: Haven't thought about this at all.  Maybe saving this for Season 11 if we're desperate.

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Will there be death in this arc?

KITSIS: Yes.
HOROWITZ: Probably.
KITSIS: There will be.

I guess they didn't talk to decide answers beforehand.

Edited June 5, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

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It's pretty common for the heroes' goals to be "simpler" things like love, family, happiness, or peace. Maybe adventure, but they usually learn that love is more important.

That is true, but how they plan on getting those things is not interesting. There isn't a long-term obstacle standing in their way. They can just stay in their town, keeping the love fires kindling, and deal with each threat as it comes. It's gotten to the point where they really don't fear death, with the exception of Emma. (That monster-bash game plan scene in 4x12 is quite telling.)

Going back to Lost, most of the Survivors wanted peace and families. They weren't interested in the Island's secrets or all the shenanigans. Jack, most notably, just wanted to get everyone to safety. But doing that was difficult. "Getting off the Island" is much more thrilling than just having a baby in a clean hospital or getting married to the person you've been dating for months. As Shanna Marie has discussed before, there are active and reactive goals. As it stands, the citizens of Storybrooke are largely passive. To see them succeed is to watch them loop back whatever state they were in before things went haywire.

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Still can't answer this one after the entire arc, actually.

Well if they said no, the torture porn would have just been rendered pointless quicker.

Edited June 5, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Characters having internal struggles allow simple goals like finding love or peace to work.  For example, Emma, Hook and Regina are actually given internal struggles, so achieving those goals remain interesting and complex.  Whereas the characters that A&E don't really care about (Snow, Charming, Robin Hood, Belle, Henry) have no consistent internal struggle or they're all over the place, so they are aimless and seem to be used as props for plot, exposition or other characters.

[Shanna Marie]

18 hours ago, Camera One said:

For example, Emma, Hook and Regina are actually given internal struggles, so achieving those goals remain interesting and complex.  Whereas the characters that A&E don't really care about (Snow, Charming, Robin Hood, Belle, Henry) have no consistent internal struggle or they're all over the place, so they are aimless and seem to be used as props for plot, exposition or other characters.

This is where the Regina insta-redemption hurts the writing. Being stuck in the same small town with the person who spent the last few decades making your life miserable should be a huge source of internal conflict and something to work past in order to achieve a happy, normal life that you don't have to worry about having ripped away from you. After all she's been through, having a peaceful life with her husband and kids should be something Snow is willing to fight for, and could she really feel secure with Regina in town and with Regina never having said anything about having been wrong or that she's not going to do anything else to her? Or there could have been some ongoing conflict and struggle between Snow and David, since she sees Regina as a stepmother she feels she wronged, while to David, Regina is just a threat to their happiness. I don't even feel like they're showing Regina with any kind of internal struggles unless they make the plot all about that. She goes along seeming to be perfectly okay, with no guilt or regrets, no sense of needing to make amends or set right the things she ruined, until suddenly some aspect of her life isn't perfect and she has a meltdown. I never get the sense of her trying to build a happy life and working for it.

Since they've made Henry the Author, he should really have more going on. He should be trying to figure out what his role is. At the very least, he should be, you know, writing. Even without the magic quill (and how did he get it from the Underworld, since it was the Underworld dead version he had there -- did Zeus grant it another life? Did it earn magic quill ambrosia?), shouldn't he have been recording events while they were in Camelot or struggling against the Dark One(s)? Maybe playing reporter and interviewing people about what happened?

I guess Belle has the ongoing struggle of making her marriage to a villain work and trying to reform Rumple. She probably has more standing in the way of her happiness than anyone else. The problem is that it's repetitive. She never seems to learn.

[Souris]

On 5/28/2016 at 8:13 AM, Serena said:

When was the "absolutely" interview? That could give us an hint about when they decided to kill him off. It wasn't in the original plan for S5, I guess.

I'm pretty certain the decision was made in the winter hiatus. The week the writers went back to work in January, Bridget posted some cryptic tweets about tough days and later quite a few tweets about rewrites and late nights/weekends at work. It was probably upsetting for them to kill Robin and have to redo whatever they'd mapped out. Whatever the reason for killing Robin -- whether it was a budget thing, a story thing or something else -- I think it played perfectly with all the SQ/anti-CS fans spamming Adam with hiatus tweets about wanting the focus on family (Swan-Mills family only for them) and less on romance (stop focusing on CS). 

[AnotherCastle]

From EdR's NJ Meet&Greet:

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She told Kitzowitz early in her pregnancy and let them decide if they were writing it in.  A few days later she got a call and an excited decision that they would and she expected it to show up in the next script (since she still didn’t look pregnant).  Six scripts went by and she called them again because she was very visibly showing at that point.  “They’re men.”

Robbie Kay:

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Question for Robbie:  Was it hard to take yourself seriously playing Robert Carlyle’s dad?  “Yeah it was a constant struggle to try to take that seriously.  They didn’t actually tell me I was 250 years old in the show and Rumplestiltskin’s father until about three episodes in.  About three episodes into filming they were like ‘oh by the way this is happening now and you are part of the ever growing family tree….’ and I was like thanks for telling me now.  But yeah it was kind of weird to wrap my head around.  We got used to it.  But Robert Carlyle is good to be around and he is a professional while we’re working so that made it very easy.”

Rebecca Mader:

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What was it like when you found out you were going to have Regina’s boyfriend’s baby? “Ohhhh awkward… that was a fun day at the office.  I was in my car and I was in Beverly Hills and Adam and Eddy called me and asked ‘Do you want to be undeaded?’ ‘I would love to be undeaded.’  ‘We’d love to have you back on the show, guess what you’ve been Maid Marion all along.’ ‘Oh my god.’ ‘And you killed her.’ ‘Oh my god!’ ‘And you’re pregnant with Robin’s baby.’ ‘OH MY GOD!!’  The fans are going to kill me!  But I didn’t write it.  It was really intense.  But really fun to play.”

[Camera One]

Thanks for the quotes, which all had the same theme.  The actors often have no idea what the heck they're playing, since the Writers don't even tell them.

[YaddaYadda]

Always flying by the seam of their pants. That's why a lot of stuff makes zero sense.

See: Find Nimue because she's the only one who can help.

[Shanna Marie]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

The actors often have no idea what the heck they're playing, since the Writers don't even tell them.

The one I really feel bad for is Christie Laing, who was playing the heck out of Marian with no clue that she was really Zelena, and they've since shown that Zelena isn't capable of staying in character long enough to fool Belle into thinking she was Blue. Not to mention, it's impossible to imagine that Zelena would have gone that long while trying to ruin Regina's life without shouting to the mountaintops and especially to Robin what a horrible monster Regina was to her while she was pretending to be Marian and could be a martyr about it.

Back to the idea of the character goals, when I'm presented with a writing challenge my brain insists on solving it, and I've decided that while you can start a story with the heroes just wanting to have happy lives, you can't do that in the middle once they know there's a threat, so even if the heroes just want happiness and love, they need to be more proactive about protecting what they have. Emma comes out looking better here because she did move heaven and earth to save Hook, but they all look kind of foolish for not taking any precautions around the town. Now that they know that Storybrooke is a magnet for magical villains, maybe they should do something about that, like set up perimeter guards or have some kind of spell on the town that will set off an alarm when there's magical activity. Unfortunately, they rely too heavily on Idiot Plotting -- where the characters have to be idiots for the plot to work. For instance, when Regina let the Queens of Darkness in town because she believed their claims of wanting to redeem themselves. Why did no one stand there at the town line and take the scroll back from them right away so it couldn't be handed to Rumple? They could have had the same outcome with less idiocy if Rumple had been in the trunk of Cruella's car (as so many of us expected) without the idiocy of trusting these villains with the scroll instead of demanding it back the moment they crossed the line. And then imagine the humor of Cruella getting to force Rumple into the trunk. Cruella and Ursula being free to just toss the scroll back to Rumple so he could walk in not only required the good guys to be stupid, it ended up being less entertaining. He could still have done the cane toss after he got out of the trunk.

[KingOfHearts]

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The one I really feel bad for is Christie Laing, who was playing the heck out of Marian with no clue that she was really Zelena, and they've since shown that Zelena isn't capable of staying in character long enough to fool Belle into thinking she was Blue. Not to mention, it's impossible to imagine that Zelena would have gone that long while trying to ruin Regina's life without shouting to the mountaintops and especially to Robin what a horrible monster Regina was to her while she was pretending to be Marian and could be a martyr about it.

Wouldn't Zelena go around haunting Regina when no one was looking? Wouldn't she be formulating some sort of back-up plan in case she got caught?

Quote

Back to the idea of the character goals, when I'm presented with a writing challenge my brain insists on solving it, and I've decided that while you can start a story with the heroes just wanting to have happy lives, you can't do that in the middle once they know there's a threat, so even if the heroes just want happiness and love, they need to be more proactive about protecting what they have. 

That's one of the major problems with 5B. The characters repeatedly endangered their loved ones knowingly. They took risks that could have harmed others. Snow, Charming and Robin all left their children as potential orphans. Henry had no business tagging along. Regina was an idiot for giving Pistachio to Zades. Belle took on a sleeping curse, unsure of whether or not it would affect her baby.  The only people who seemed concerned about safety for their loved ones were Emma, Rumple and Zelena. 

Edited June 9, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

They weren't even concerned for their own safety.  Walking all carefree around The Underworld?  :When Hades could appear at any moment?

[Shanna Marie]

9 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Wouldn't Zelena go around haunting Regina when no one was looking? Wouldn't she be formulating some sort of back-up plan in case she got caught?

Basically, Zelena would have done the exact opposite of what we saw "Marian" doing. She'd have been playing the martyred hero, waging a one-woman campaign of righteous indignation against her tormentor, trying to turn everyone in town, especially Robin, against Regina. When alone with Regina, she could have let her bitch flag fly. I can't imagine that she would have said anything like "You're not a monster" with a straight face. But then there's the basic problem that this doesn't seem like the kind of revenge scheme Zelena was likely to come up with in the first place. She was jealous of Regina's lush life, not her boyfriend, so posing as Regina's boyfriend's wife never made any sense, and why would she want to live in poverty in a strange world with a man she didn't love who she knew really wanted to be with Regina? Her issue was that she didn't like being in second place, so why would her idea of revenge be putting herself in a situation where she knew she wasn't really the first choice and had to live with that awareness? Some revenge, when the man she's with is writing love letters to the person she's trying to hurt. That whole thing is one of their worst writing fails because it's painfully obvious that they were just trying to find a way to bring back a character and actress they liked while also absolving their favorite from blame when the cryptsex adultery turned out to be very unpopular with viewers.

17 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

The characters repeatedly endangered their loved ones knowingly.

You can go even further back to 4B, with Robin risking the security of what he thought was his family to steal the potion to keep Rumple from dying of the consequences of his own evil. What would have become of Marian and Roland if Robin had been arrested for breaking and entering? And why would he take that risk for someone who'd done so much harm and who got into that situation by his own actions. I know the real reason was that they weren't going to let Rumple die, but why did they have to contrive to keep him alive in such a way that it made Robin look like he didn't care about his family or about any of the other potential victims. It would have been just as easy for Zelena to have had the potion all along, thus setting up the situation we got, with her revealing herself as Zelena when she withheld it at first. Or, since the potion meant nothing to the long-term plot, why bother at all? It was a plot element that went nowhere and only serves to make Robin at least partially responsible for the deaths of the Apprentice, Hook, and himself.

[TheGreenKnight]

18 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

The one I really feel bad for is Christie Laing, who was playing the heck out of Marian with no clue that she was really Zelena, and they've since shown that Zelena isn't capable of staying in character long enough to fool Belle into thinking she was Blue.

They've also shown Zelena pretend to be Ariel and completely fool Hook, so it's not that unbelievable (on top of fooling Glinda and Dorothy in the past, and then posing as a midwife). I don't find anything that "Marian" does out-of-character with what Zelena would do, and her plot with Robin also made sense to me since it pretty much wrecked Regina for a whole arc, even made her go steps backwards in regards to being a "good guy" which Zelena found laughable. I guess I'm not in the camp that believes the Zelena reveal was a last-second decision. It always felt like it was going to happen, what with the smoke at the end of 3B that looked almost sentient, how Ingrid specifically chose to use Marian as part of her plot (killing two birds with one stone by making everyone suspicious of Elsa and keeping Zelena from possibly causing problems), and Robin couldn't give her TLK. I mean, how else would they have gotten Regina and Robin back together if Zelena wasn't the plan? Have Rumpel kill Marian in NY or something else completely random?

[KAOS Agent]

If the Zelena = Marian was always planned, then they damn well needed to have Bex Mader on board from the end of S3. As that was not the case, I have a hard time believing it was their plan at the time. According to the actress herself, she didn't get a call about possibly coming back until they were well into filming S4. They could easily have Zelena come back using the green smoke excuse (and that was probably the thought at the time), but the Zelena kills Marian and takes over her body wasn't conceived until much later in the plans for 4B. It would have been fairly easy to write out Marian by having her get settled into NYC and telling Robin he should go back to his soul mate - just as she did in the 4A finale. It's very clear based on interviews with the writers that they don't have firm long term plans and are easily turned from their plots with shiny new toys.

[Shanna Marie]

Whether or not they planned for Marian to have been Zelena all along, it's bad writing because it doesn't track. Zelena's issue is that she's always second-best to Regina (or feels that way). She got dumped on the side of the road by Cora while Cora kept Regina, who got to grow up as a princess. Rumple chose Regina to cast the curse, even though Zelena was more powerful and better at magic. Even though Zelena was getting to live in Rumple's castle and get personal training from him, she couldn't cope with not being the chosen one, and that set off her whole revenge scheme to erase Regina from existence so she'd get everything Regina got. Is this a person who would get her revenge on her sister by deliberately putting herself in second place? I might have believed her coming back as Marian and using the Marian identity to turn everyone against Regina and get Robin to choose "Marian" over Zelena. I don't believe her being all "I can see that you love each other and I won't hold you back," then creating a situation where he's stuck with her even though she knows he actually chose Regina. What Zelena wanted was the life Regina had, not a boyfriend. Regina still had everything Zelena wanted while Zelena was stuck with nothing she wanted and a man she knew wanted Regina more than he wanted the woman she was pretending to be.

Then there's all the Idiot Plotting involved with Zelena. Her initial scheme was foiled by her own boasting. If she'd kept her mouth shut and not been mwa-ha-haing all over the place and then creeping on Snow's baby bump, then they wouldn't have known she was up to anything until she swooped in to take the baby and cast her spell. Ditto once she was in Storybrooke. Maybe if she hadn't been sending flying monkeys all over the place, they wouldn't have realized there was a threat. The plot only works if she's an idiot (and then it only takes them as long as it did for them to figure out the threat because they were being idiots). Then there was Robin in New York stealing the potion to save Rumple, which may be the dumbest thing anyone on this show has ever done.

[Rumsy4]

The writers may have had the idea of Zelena!Marian at the back of their minds, but they certainly did not writer for it. Maybe in case things didn't work out, or if they changed their mind. Zelena would have capitalized on the fact that Regina would have executed her if not for Emma saving her life. And she most definitely would not have turned around in one episode to the idea that Regina had changed or whatever. 

[TheGreenKnight]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

 Is this a person who would get her revenge on her sister by deliberately putting herself in second place?

Did she though? Robin pretty much dumped Regina for her and it would've stayed that way if not for the reveal. Zelena wouldn't care if he really loves her since she wasn't in it for the love anyway, just that Regina didn't have him. It was about twisting the knife, and by giving Robin the opportunity to choose Regina while knowing he was too honorable to really do that, it just made the separation more painful (and enjoyable from her point of view). She even got to give birth to Robin's child, something Regina would never be able to do.

As for the other posts, I had read that quote from Mader before I posted. It comes across to me more that they assumed Mader would be available if they wanted to pursue the idea. Many actors are left hanging until they might be wanted again, like Sidney. And, usually, they do return unless they've gone on to bigger and better things. And I do think everything was setup for the storyline to go that way ideally. Marian being Zelena or dying is the only way they would've solved that plot without creating huge issues with the audience. Either Robin leaves his wife or Regina kills his wife to get him back--both options would've ruined the relationship to most of the audience.

[Camera One]

The problem with Robin Hood choosing to leave Marian is he would also have to leave Roland.  So that would have damaged his character, even if Marian decided she wanted to stay in NYC and encouraged him to pursue his soulmate Regina.  The fact that A&E love Zelena and love writing for her (giving her the only true character arc in 5B) does make me wonder if they intended to give her a permanent role eventually, and when they made that decision.

[Shanna Marie]

I figure Marian would have died tragically, one way or another, so Regina and Robin could be together (and then they'd promptly kill him off anyway). The question was only when she would die -- was she herself all along and then died in New York, or was she killed during the time travel and Marian was actually Zelena all the time. By making her Zelena all the time, they killed two birds with one stone, getting Marian out of the way and bringing Zelena back. I have a really hard time imagining they planned what they did, for reasons I've outlined. I particularly can't see Zelena managing to keep a straight face while giving Regina and Robin the "I can tell you love each other and I'm not going to force you to be with me" speech. He didn't choose "Marian." He was going to be with Regina until the frozen heart kicked in, and even then, Regina had to be the one to tell him he had to go with Marian and Roland, which meant Zelena-as-Marian wasn't his choice. The character of Zelena, as established, wasn't the type to be able to play the longsuffering, sacrificial martyr. Look at how she managed to express herself even while made mute in Camelot. She'd have been making faces at Regina behind Robin's back and making sure he know how much Regina had made Marian suffer so that he would have rejected Regina for her. As it was, she was living with a man who was writing love letters to her sister and gazing at her picture on his phone.

It doesn't come across like there was ever any plan. It was a cascade of "wouldn't it be cool" ideas crammed into the situation that was already established. I don't think they counted on how unpopular the adultery thing turned out to be. They were counting on Regina and Robin as star-crossed lovers with that awful Marian in the way, and that's not the way audiences saw it. After the response to the crypt sex, the only way out was to wave their hands and say it was Zelena all along. At that point, just killing Marian tragically would have only added insult to injury. They had to find a way to make it not be adultery to begin with (even though it was if that's what they thought was happening).

[Faemonic]

You know what I think it would be cool if? The complicated mixed family situation that Regina was oh so concerned about Roland suffering to grow up with, as she told Robin on the park bench while Marian not yet retconned to Zarian fed ducks with her tiny child. The slice-of-life terse amiability or subtle melancholy. Couldn't we have that for at least an arc?

[Shanna Marie]

14 minutes ago, Faemonic said:

The slice-of-life terse amiability or subtle melancholy. Couldn't we have that for at least an arc?

Frankly, I was shipping Marian with Little John, with the idea that she deserved better than Robin. But I think this is where they have a bad habit of choosing the least complex -- and least interesting -- option. They wanted to make a victim out of Regina and do Operation Mongoose, so instead of the more complex and subtle plot of Marian being in town and them all working out that complicated arrangement, they stirred up big drama to send Marian away temporarily. And then it all came to nothing because Operation Mongoose was wiped out in an easy epiphany and then totally forgotten, and they killed off Robin anyway. The entire main plot of 4B ended up being totally negated. That was probably the worst arc while it was happening, and everything that's happened since has retroactively made it even worse because it was so pointless.

[Faemonic]

21 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think this is where they have a bad habit of choosing the least complex -- and least interesting -- option.

I agree but, strangely, can't articulate exactly what the failing is beyond a case by case by case and trend basis. It's like defining a Mary Sue, which in my opinion devolved into a laundry list of traits that could apply to any main character; there remain characters I scream at for being Mary Sues, but the fact is I only know it when I see it.

 

There's a trope called Cerberus Syndrome that I might personally be prone to, but hell if I know what violence and despair someone else will consider gratuitous (that I felt was both necessary to the story and adequately resolved.) If there's an audience willing to support ever-external, shallow conflicts that are resolved ex machina and invite or even require so much projection, that's technically okay/worthwhile/good storytelling? It's just not going to be my cuppa tea.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Faemonic said:

I agree but, strangely, can't articulate exactly what the failing is beyond a case by case by case and trend basis. It's like defining a Mary Sue, which in my opinion devolved into a laundry list of traits that could apply to any main character; there remain characters I scream at for being Mary Sues, but the fact is I only know it when I see it.

This is the strangest thing about the show.  Usually, I'm prone to theorizing at length about what has gone wrong and what can be done to fix it.  With this show, I've got nothing.  Its like they strung together so many poor decisions that its just not the show it had he potential to be in season 1 and there is just no coming back.  It is what it is.

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, Faemonic said:

It's like defining a Mary Sue, which in my opinion devolved into a laundry list of traits that could apply to any main character; there remain characters I scream at for being Mary Sues, but the fact is I only know it when I see it.

My definition of a canon Mary Sue is a character about whom the writers can't seem to be objective. The writers act like helicopter parents to the character. The results are similar to what you see with an actual Mary Sue in fan fiction:

• the character is unreasonably universally loved (may be awful and treat people terribly, but is still adored)
• anyone who doesn't love the character is jealous or evil
• the character doesn't face consequences or sometimes even criticism for any bad actions or failures
• the character gets what she wants very easily, without struggle
• the character manages to instantly be the best at something, even better than people who've worked hard at that skill, for no good reason
• the character's sufferings are magnified by the story, even if they're not as bad as what other characters suffer
• the character gets credit for things she didn't do, or gets more credit than others who may even have contributed more

Sound familiar? Regina doesn't fit all of these necessarily, but she's violet eyes and a beautiful singing voice away from being your typical fanfic Mary Sue. Oddly, on paper, Emma should be a Mary Sue, given that she's born to be the Savior, is a princess, is the Destined, Chosen One with Magical Specialness, and even gets the hot guy, but she isn't really written that way. She gets criticized, she had to work to earn some people's love, she gets consequences for just about everything she does (even the good things), and she struggled to learn to use her magic.

9 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

Usually, I'm prone to theorizing at length about what has gone wrong and what can be done to fix it.  With this show, I've got nothing.  Its like they strung together so many poor decisions that its just not the show it had he potential to be in season 1 and there is just no coming back. 

I would say that the above Mary Sue stuff is the core of the problems with the show. It was trying to avoid consequences for Regina and make her suddenly into a hero that everyone rallies around that damaged whatever worldbuilding they might have done in the aftermath of the curse, and that then altered the other characters and the plots. Make the response to Regina after the curse be even moderately realistic and make Regina work for redemption, and you have a very different show. I'm not sure how they can fix it at this point, unless maybe seeing the Evil Queen from the outside makes her suddenly repentant, but even that doesn't fix the problems of the other characters, who've been damaged beyond repair, thanks to Operation Mongoose.

[Faemonic]

10 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Oddly, on paper, Emma should be a Mary Sue, given that she's born to be the Savior, is a princess, is the Destined, Chosen One with Magical Specialness, and even gets the hot guy, but she isn't really written that way.

 

• She gets criticized
• she had to work to earn some people's love
• she gets consequences for just about everything she does (even the good things), and
• she struggled to learn to use her magic.

This is true. This is so much truth that I only posted to quote this. Emma should be a Mary Sue but isn't. That's laudably skillful writing. Why isn't it contagious.

[Shanna Marie]

12 hours ago, Faemonic said:

Emma should be a Mary Sue but isn't. That's laudably skillful writing.

I'm not quite sure I'm ready to give them credit for deftly avoiding making the Destined Chosen One with Magical Specialness not be a Mary Sue because I suspect they didn't do it on purpose. It's just that in order to coddle Regina, someone had to be brought down a peg, and since they seem to be trying to parallel Regina with Emma, Emma suffered (and gained) for it. Consequences and blame have to fall somewhere, so they tend to fall on Emma. However, the results do provide a valid writing lesson -- be sure to give your magically special chosen one princess a number of hard knocks and undeserved difficulties that most of the other characters hardly acknowledge, and you get a much better character.

[maryle]

After A. E.spoke about  the upcoming season  be a 22 season arc. 

I should be happy because obviously the 2 arc format was not working anymore but everything is meh for me, at this point.

I have to remember myself that Hydes and the  untold story can bring something new and creative. But, I was so sure that Hades was too rich to miss. They will find a look and compelling story about the Olympus and the other Gods.  At the end we had his love story with Zelena has the main focus. 

I am not exciting maybe sdcc will bring a little bit!

[KingOfHearts]

I seem to recall the writers of Lost saying S6 was meant to emulate S1 with its feel, survival, and walking through the jungle. A&E are saying Once's S6 will be returning to the show's roots. And, knowing how it turned out for Lost, the similarity isn't very comforting.  

Edited June 13, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Among Adam's comments today...

Quote

Adam Horowitz   ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

@gozdeuca I love Graham. he is part of the foundation of the entire show

Quote

Adam Horowitz   ‏@AdamHorowitzLA

@SomewhereApart I meant, we don't write "ships" -- but we love that fans see them and watch for them!

Quote

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  

@SomewhereApart how? I've repeatedly said that I LOVE that people "ship" characters on the show. I love, love, LOVE that it happens!

Quote

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  

@RegalCountess we don't really talk about "ships" in the writers room. We talk about individual characters

 

 

Sorry, quotes are really messing up.

Who is he trying to kid?  They allot episodes to particular "ships".

Edited June 15, 2016 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

Adam thinks he can wiggle out with a technicality by saying they don't use the terms Captain Swan or Snowing in the writing room. He is fooling no one. The writers can't resist giving even 13-yr old Henry a romantic relationship with someone (which incidentally is the only relationship he has with someone of his own age).

[KingOfHearts]

On 6/14/2016 at 9:19 PM, Rumsy4 said:

Adam thinks he can wiggle out with a technicality by saying they don't use the terms Captain Swan or Snowing in the writing room. He is fooling no one. The writers can't resist giving even 13-yr old Henry a romantic relationship with someone (which incidentally is the only relationship he has with someone of his own age).

You can only be happy if you're in a romantic relationship. #WhatILearnedFromOnce

[YaddaYadda]

On 6/14/2016 at 10:19 PM, Rumsy4 said:

Adam thinks he can wiggle out with a technicality by saying they don't use the terms Captain Swan or Snowing in the writing room. He is fooling no one. The writers can't resist giving even 13-yr old Henry a romantic relationship with someone (which incidentally is the only relationship he has with someone of his own age).

They're the ones who named Ruby/Dorothy in the episode title. Probably because they wanted to come up with a ship name.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

You can only be happy if you're in a romantic relationship. #WhatILearnedFromOnce

That's been what's was so weird about both Operation Mongoose and the idea that Robin's death ruined Regina's life to the point she needed to split out the Evil Queen part of her that's apparently responsible for her unhappiness. The only thing wrong with Regina's life in both instances was the fact that she didn't have a boyfriend. She's mayor of the town (when she wants to be). She lives in a mansion. She has a group of friends that would do anything for her even when she's nasty to them, and they consider her family. She has an adopted son who loves her in spite of the fact that she emotionally abused him. But when her boyfriend went back to his wife, her life was ruined and she was so unhappy that she needed to take supernatural steps to get herself a happy ending. Now she's also had afterlife reconciliations with both parents and has a sister in her life, but without a boyfriend, her life may as well be over.

I really don't think they're doing this on purpose. It's just that their Regina blinders seem to make them afraid to make her really and truly unhappy. All they can do is take away her boyfriend, but she acts like that's the end of the world. They'd have had a stronger story if Zelena as Marian had set out to turn the town against her, and she had lost more than Robin -- she lost her job, then maybe that led to her losing the mansion, and Emma had turned against her after seeing her in the past, and once she was out of power, the other people in town turned against her. Then maybe she could claim that her life was ruined. Or in the current situation, if Robin's death had been linked directly to the Percival situation, then she could have blamed the Evil Queen side of her for her current unhappiness.

[tri4335]

Quote

I just saw a really interesting post from someone that was in the Meet & Greet with Colin this weekend. He spoke about the elevator scene in 5x20 where he and Emma say goodbye. I loved hearing about his thought process and how they made the scene come to life. It sounds like he was left to decide how to approach the character in terms of staying strong/stoic and shedding tears. It shows that the writers/directors trust the actors to understand their characters and make these types of decisions. I thought he played this perfectly and the fact that its the only time we've seen Hook cry really added to the emotional intensity.

The above is from the Killian Thread and it got me thinking (go to that thread to see KKTJones original post and link from Monday at 4:24 pm). 

So they allowed CO to decide how to play the scene but I wonder do they take his performance as "cannon" or will they contradict it some time in the future?  Also, how much direction do they give the actors and how much can the performer improvise? For example, when Rumple dies and Belle falls to the ground, none of the characters react to her turmoil. Was that the choice of the writers or did each individual actor decide to not respond to Belle's collapse or did ER decide to improvise the collapse and thus no one moved because they were unclear where the scene was going to go?  Snow reacted to Regina but that was obviously scripted but here we have Belle sobbing on the ground and everyone else is like ho hum maybe Granny's is having the meatball special today.

In season 1 when Regina crushes Graham's heart, LP plays that as evil and she takes pleasure in it.  2-3 seasons later, we learn in an interview that she was remorseful and so very very sad that she was driven to those lengths.  So is that a recon or did A & E truly have it in their head right from the start that she would be remorseful...did they not give her direction and LP chose to act it that way?

Another example is the hug between Hook and David, after reading CO's response, I feel this was totally improvised by JD because HE felt his character would respond in this manner. However, now I won't be surprised if in S6 E2, David is dragging Hook over the coals yelling that the "pirate" won't get near his daughter. 

Many times I'm confused by A & E's responses in interviews and the fact that they don't line up on what is actually shown on my television screen. I think they have these "cannon" views of their characters but miss the fact that the writing or where they allow their actors to improvise directly contradict their views.  So is that they are bad writers or more the directing/show running that makes them fail?  Is that they are so invested in the "twist" that they leave everyone in the dark to preserve that twist?

Edited June 22, 2016 by tri4335
adding Poster's name and time of post

[RadioGirl27]

19 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

Another example is the hug between Hook and David, after reading CO's response, I feel this was totally improvised by JD because HE felt his character would respond in this manner. However, now I won't be surprised if in S6 E2, David is dragging Hook over the coals yelling that the "pirate" won't get near his daughter. 

I don't know about the rest, but Adam said on Twitter that the hug was scripted.

[Rumsy4]

36 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

Many times I'm confused by A & E's responses in interviews and the fact that they don't line up on what is actually shown on my television screen. I think they have these "cannon" views of their characters but miss the fact that the writing or where they allow their actors to improvise directly contradict their views.  So is that they are bad writers or more the directing/show running that makes them fail?  Is that they are so invested in the "twist" that they leave everyone in the dark to preserve that twist?

The writers write for episodes. That's the main reason why, IMO, there are so many retcons and inconsistencies in storytelling and motives across the board. Take the example of the finale. It didn't seem like Regina hated doing the right thing in 5B. And yet, we're supposed to believe that becasue it fits the Jekyll/Hyde story the writers are pushing for S6.

I do think at least some of the mistakes (like the Emilie de Ravin thing) may be the fault of the directors. Or rather, I don't think ONCE has a dedicated set of directors that "know" the story. Plus there's a million things to fit into a scene sometimes. Unless everyone brings their A-game and their imagination, things can get lost by the wayside. Someone should have comforted Belle in that scene in Going Home. Maybe if de Ravin was in more scenes with the other cast, one of the actors may have improvised something. As it is, I don't think it was in the script, and neither the directors nor the actors thought of adding that touch of comfort. 

Edited June 22, 2016 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

41 minutes ago, tri4335 said:

In season 1 when Regina crushes Graham's heart, LP plays that as evil and she takes pleasure in it.  2-3 seasons later, we learn in an interview that she was remorseful and so very very sad that she was driven to those lengths.  So is that a recon or did A & E truly have it in their head right from the start that she would be remorseful...did they not give her direction and LP chose to act it that way?

I'm guessing that was damage control after the fact. By the time of the interview, they wanted Regina to be seen as the woobie victim, so they tried to reset the scene to change the way it was perceived, which only works when the scene isn't fresh in your head. Then again, Lana plays a lot of scenes that should probably be more neutral with the crazy eyes that make her look evil, so it's hard to tell. Maybe she was going for a mix of sad and angry and it came out as evil. Then again, it's hard to imagine that action as being something to be sad about. If it makes you sad to kill someone, don't kill them.

8 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Unless everyone brings their A-game and their imagination, things can get lost by the wayside. Someone should have comforted Belle in that scene in Going Home. Maybe if de Ravin was in more scenes with the other cast, one of the actors may have improvised something. As it is, I don't think it was in the script, and neither the directors nor the actors thought of adding that touch of comfort. 

That scene wasn't really set up for improvisation. The actors have marks they have to hit and stay on for stuff like camera angles, lighting, and all that, so while they might improvise smaller actions (like the elevator hand kiss) or the way they do scripted things (Hook tying the bandage with his teeth), moving out of place and going somewhere else in the scene wouldn't happen on the fly. The best they could have done was bring it up to the director and maybe work out some changes or a different way to stage the scene, and then whether or not they could do it would depend on how much time they had because moving a person to a different location or having two (or more) extra people in the close-in shot on Belle would have required adjusting the lighting and camera settings. That's something that needed to have been scripted, and that's the usual case of the writers forgetting to think like human beings and consider what people would do in a particular situation. Someone in the group would probably have gone to Belle, and it needed to have been written that way so the director could have planned it.

[AnotherCastle]

Re: The Belle moment in Going Home:

There is a fan on tumblr who does collect scripts and sometimes shares scans of scenes (same person who put the full Skin Deep script online, so I'm pretty sure it's legit). She has deleted her original posts but the pics are still online on tumblr. Looks like in the script David was suppose to reach out to Belle but it changed during filming for whatever reason, maybe because looking at the script they wanted the focus to be on Regina rather than Rumple's loved ones:

More of the scene:

Edited June 22, 2016 by AnotherCastle

[Curio]

Sometimes, the scripts read so differently than what ends up on screen.

"Gold, her mentor and friend." So when did the writers decide to totally ditch that friendship?

[YaddaYadda]

But why is the focus on Regina's pain instead of Belle's pain or even Neal's pain? I know that Regina and Rumple have known each other for a really long ass time, but still. There's a whole paragraph describing how Regina feels, because David's comforting hand, and Emma's condolences should be enough while we're focused on Regina's loss.

[tri4335]

3 minutes ago, Curio said:

Sometimes, the scripts read so differently than what ends up on screen.

"Gold, her mentor and friend." So when did the writers decide to totally ditch that friendship?

Exactly!  So what do A & E think their audience knows from that scene?  What I saw from that scene is no one, including Neal, cares about Belle. I remember discussions from many of us wondering why the scene was framed as a big "blow" to Regina and seeing that script they want us to believe that they were mentor/friend. I've always seen them as more user/used of frenimies than "friends".