Tommen Baratheon: The King Who Couldn't

[Spartan Girl]

Since Tommen is now the king (and will hopefully be a bigger character in the next season), I thought I'd start a topic for him.

 

From what we've seen so far, he seems nice enough for a Lannister.  He definitely loves kittens, as evidence by the adorable Ser Pounce.

 

Do you think he really believes that Tyrion killed Joffrey?  The part of Tyrion's trial where he had to officially wash his hands of judging Tyrion was depressing when you remember how he close he and his sister were with their uncle.  Tyrion's sad little nod just killed me.

[Constantinople]

Sorry to quote myself, but Tommen is Damien from The Omen.

Tommen is just a a little too sweet, isn't he, hoping that Bran doesn't die from his fall, and saying he wouldn't like it if Robb were killed? Crying when his sister Myrcella is sent away to Dorne. Talk about gilding the lily.

Remember near the end of the Battle of Blackwater, when he's sitting with Cersei on the throne and she's about to kill him? That's almost a mirror of the ending scene in the Omen, and we all know how that turned out.

Isn't a little odd that two attempts were made at King Joffrey's life -- the riot and the wedding feast -- and Tommen was present at both of them? That the first action during the riot was to take Tommen to safety?

Ever notice how everything goes Tommen's way? Joffrey is the King of War, Starvation and the Execution of Ned Stark? And now Tommen is the King of Peace?

And we know Tommen had Tywin wrapped around Tommen's finger. Tywin's first action at the wedding feast was to shield Tommen. And how about that game Tommen played in the sept, letting himself be "tutored" by Tywin by first pretending to give the wrong answers. As if the Anti-Seven, or whatever the Anti-Christ is called in Westeros, wouldn't know the "correct" answer.

And now Tommen's king.

 

Who else but the Anti-Seven could insure that the innocent Tyrion was found guilty by the gods in the trial by combat between Prince Oberyn and the Mountain?

Still not convinced?

Here's the prophecy from the Omen:

When Walkers return to Westeros
And a red comet rips the sky
The Targaryen Empire rises,
Then you and I must die.
From the eternal sea he rises,
Creating armies on either shore,
Turning man against his brother
'Til man exists no more.

Edited November 26, 2014 by Constantinople

[Hecate7]

Sorry to quote myself, but Tommen is Damien from The Omen.

Tommen is just a a little too sweet, isn't he, hoping that Bran doesn't die from his fall, and saying he wouldn't like it if Robb were killed? Crying when his sister Myrcella is sent away to Dorne. Talk about gilding the lily.

Remember near the end of the Battle of Blackwater, when he's sitting with Cersei on the throne and she's about to kill him? That's almost a mirror of the ending scene in the Omen, and we all know how that turned out.

Isn't a little odd that two attempts were made at King Joffrey's life -- the riot and the wedding feast -- and Tommen was present at both of them? That the first action during the riot was to take Tommen to safety?

Ever notice how everything goes Tommen's way? Joffrey is the King of War, Starvation and the Execution of Ned Stark? And now Tommen is the King of Peace?

And we know Tommen had Tywin wrapped around Tommen's finger. Tywin's first action at the wedding feast was to shield Tommen. And how about that game Tommen played in the sept, letting himself be "tutored" by Tywin by first pretending to give the wrong answers. As if the Anti-Seven, or whatever the Anti-Christ is called in Westeros, wouldn't know the "correct" answer.

And now Tommen's king.

 

Who else but the Anti-Seven could insure that the innocent Tyrion was found guilty by the gods in the trial by combat between Prince Oberyn and the Mountain?

Still not convinced?

Here's the prophecy from the Omen:

When Walkers return to Westeros

And a red comet rips the sky

The Targaryen Empire rises,

Then you and I must die.

From the eternal sea he rises,

Creating armies on either shore,

Turning man against his brother

'Til man exists no more.

Interesting, but I'm not convinced at all.

 

This is less of an indictment of Tommen, than of his grandfather. The evidence suggests Tywin was hedging his bet.

[Kadlin Mormont]

Constantinople, I never thought of it that way.  

 

That sneaky bastard.  He's evil like Bert is evil.  

[Hecate7]

Tommen may think Tyrion is guilty, and moreover that the killing of Joffrey was long overdue. I think he might be tempted to issue a pardon, though, at some point.

[Lady S.]

Isn't a little odd that two attempts were made at King Joffrey's life -- the riot and the wedding feast -- and Tommen was present at both of them? That the first action during the riot was to take Tommen to safety?

 

That is very suspicious. How can anyone defend against such damning evidence?

[Constantinople]

That is very suspicious. How can anyone defend against such damning evidence?

 

No one can.

 

That's why I'm warning people in case -7 gets to me before Season 5 starts.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Constantinople

[Constantinople]

Tommen doesn't feel guilty about DeadJoff?

 

Tywin's conveniently dead and now Tommen is pressing Cersei to return to Casterly Rock?

 

Tommen is totally the anti-Seven.

[Hecate7]

Tommen doesn't feel guilty about DeadJoff?

 

Tywin's conveniently dead and now Tommen is pressing Cersei to return to Casterly Rock?

 

Tommen is totally the anti-Seven.

 

Is there a reason Tommen should feel guilty about Joffrey being dead? Or about marring Margaery? Joffrey offered to kill Ser Pounce and put him in Tommen's food. The only reason he didn't do it is that he died first. So his not being sad or guilty over Joff is perfectly normal.

[Maximum Taco]

Tommen doesn't feel guilty about DeadJoff?

 

Tywin's conveniently dead and now Tommen is pressing Cersei to return to Casterly Rock?

 

Tommen is totally the anti-Seven.

 

Would you feel guilty if you were wearing Joff's crown, sleeping in Joff's bed, and fucking Joff's wife?

 

All after Joff tormented you endlessly and threatened to kill your cat?

 

I don't know if I'd feel too guilty, it would feel a little bit like karma and a nice guy finally finishing first (although I bet Marg wishes she could've finished before Tommen, ba dum ching!)

Edited April 27, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Lady S.]

Not sure why people think Tommen was SORASed all the way to 16, if he was he's being written as a mentally slow 16, which only adds squick to his relations with Marg.

[Constantinople]

Joffrey offered to kill Ser Pounce and put him in Tommen's food.

 

 

All after Joff tormented you endlessly and threatened to kill your cat?

Says the Anti-Seven.

[CletusMusashi]

Where the hell is Ser Pounce?

I mean, surely the CGI budget can handle that?

[Spartan Girl]

Tommen's wedding night was both disturbing and sad. Disturbing because of the age difference and sad because he's so happy....and no idea what's in store for him.

[Dev F]

Not sure why people think Tommen was SORASed all the way to 16, if he was he's being written as a mentally slow 16, which only adds squick to his relations with Marg.

 

Yeah, I mentioned in the episode thread that I wondered the same thing. I know the actor is seventeen, but he can pass for much younger, and he certainly seems to be playing the character as if he's barely pubescent.

 

Some viewers seem to be basing their assessment on the idea that Tommen needed to reach a certain age before he could marry, but I don't recall the series ever establishing a specific lower limit for prospective grooms. Even the story point in the books that the bride must have flowered before she marries gets deemphasized in the show; Sansa has already been told that she won't marry Joffrey until the war is over, so her flowering is less about "Now I'll have to marry Joffrey right away" and more "Now the queen will expect me to bear her son's children when we do wed."

Edited April 27, 2015 by Dev F

[Hecate7]

Where the hell is Ser Pounce?

I mean, surely the CGI budget can handle that?

 

Whoever's in charge doesn't know much about cats. They were just overwhelmed by the demands of having a cat on the set and trying to get him to appear. Get a kitten--he'll do anything you like. Put a kitty treat in Tommen's hand under the quilt and the kitten will adorably nuzzle him. Wiggle a feather by the camera and you can get him to leap towards the camera. It's really not rocket science. It's as if someone's ailurophobic on the set or something.

[Lady S.]

Where the hell is Ser Pounce?

I mean, surely the CGI budget can handle that?

Cats are apparently not very cooperative actors.

Yeah, I mentioned in the episode thread that I wondered the same thing. I know the actor is seventeen, but he can pass for much younger, and he certainly seems to be playing the character as if he's barely pubescent.

 

Some viewers seem to be basing their assessment on the idea that Tommen needed to reach a certain age before he could marry, but I don't recall the series ever establishing a specific lower limit for prospective grooms. Even the story point in the books that the bride must have flowered before she marries gets deemphasized in the show; Sansa has already been told that she won't marry Joffrey until the war is over, so her flowering is less about "Now I'll have to marry Joffrey right away" and more "Now the queen will expect me to bear her son's children when we do wed."

Yeah, their first scene in 4.04 definitely played as a boy just entering puberty, not one who had been a teen for a while. I think people are assuming they can't legally show them in bed if the character is only 13, but even if that's true (is it?) I think they're getting around that by writing him as 13 without actually stating his age. Maybe I'm reaching too much for the timeline to make sense, but the actor does have a baby face and um, a scrawney torso, and when looking at that with the way he behaves, it's hard to imagine him as almost the same age Robb, Jon, & Theon were back in s1.

[CletusMusashi]

Last season, I read him as obviously prepubecent because of his reaction to to Margaery. I can believe in dragons. I can believe in worgs. I can believe in Faceless Men, White Walkers, or magical fire priestesses. But one thing I had serious problems with was the idea that a pubescent boy, right after having Natalie Dormer sneak into his bedroom and flirt with him, would just happily roll over and go to sleep afterwards. Biology doesn't work like that, folks. Had Tommen been anywhere close to thirteen last year, I guarantee that there is one thing he would have done before going to sleep.

[Maximum Taco]

Yeah, their first scene in 4.04 definitely played as a boy just entering puberty, not one who had been a teen for a while. I think people are assuming they can't legally show them in bed if the character is only 13, but even if that's true (is it?) I think they're getting around that by writing him as 13 without actually stating his age. Maybe I'm reaching too much for the timeline to make sense, but the actor does have a baby face and um, a scrawney torso, and when looking at that with the way he behaves, it's hard to imagine him as almost the same age Robb, Jon, & Theon were back in s1.

 

A lot of his behaviour (IMO) can just be written off as him being babied a lot more than Robb, Jon and Theon and probably Joff.

 

Remember that Tommen grew up pretty much without a father figure, (Robert was by all reports an absentee dad) and Cersei is very much a mother who would have trouble cutting the apron strings, especially with a boy like Tommen who was more submissive due to Joffrey's alpha male being a sadistic type of alpha.

 

This is contrary to Jon, Robb and Theon who had a father (or father figure for Theon) like Ned who insisted upon them attending executions and learning early on how to be big strong Northmen because "Winter is Coming"

 

 

Last season, I read him as obviously prepubecent because of his reaction to to Margaery. I can believe in dragons. I can believe in worgs. I can believe in Faceless Men, White Walkers, or magical fire priestesses. But one thing I had serious problems with was the idea that a pubescent boy, right after having Natalie Dormer sneak into his bedroom and flirt with him, would just happily roll over and go to sleep afterwards. Biology doesn't work like that, folks. Had Tommen been anywhere close to thirteen last year, I guarantee that there is one thing he would have done before going to sleep.

 

Yeah this is unexplainable. Based on his enthusiasm during the consummation scene, he should've been a lot more excited to have Margaery sneak into his room. Maybe not excited enough to make a move, but definitely excited enough to not be able to fall asleep.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Holmbo]

Couldn't a few months make a lot difference? I don't know much about male puberty.

[Pete Martell]

Last season, I read him as obviously prepubecent because of his reaction to to Margaery. I can believe in dragons. I can believe in worgs. I can believe in Faceless Men, White Walkers, or magical fire priestesses. But one thing I had serious problems with was the idea that a pubescent boy, right after having Natalie Dormer sneak into his bedroom and flirt with him, would just happily roll over and go to sleep afterwards. Biology doesn't work like that, folks. Had Tommen been anywhere close to thirteen last year, I guarantee that there is one thing he would have done before going to sleep.

 

Apparently the scene was supposed to be more overt and she asked them to tone it down.

 

http://www.digitalspy.com/tv/s151/game-of-thrones/news/a608306/game-of-thrones-natalie-dormer-on-awkward-margaery-tommen-scene.html

 

I wish they'd kept it that way. The scene in the new episode felt so crass to me.

[Dev F]

Yeah, their first scene in 4.04 definitely played as a boy just entering puberty, not one who had been a teen for a while. I think people are assuming they can't legally show them in bed if the character is only 13, but even if that's true (is it?) I think they're getting around that by writing him as 13 without actually stating his age.

 

There's certainly not a universal rule against it. I can think of several movies that depict sexual contact between adults and underage children, sometimes fairly graphically. It's possible that the UK has some weird law forbidding it in British productions, but I don't have any particular knowledge that that's the case.

 

A lot of his behaviour (IMO) can just be written off as him being babied a lot more than Robb, Jon and Theon and probably Joff.

 

Perhaps, but why does it need to be "written off"? Isn't a cleaner explanation if Tommen acts like he's barely pubscent because he is barely pubescent?

 

Like I said, I don't see any reason not to go with the obvious here, particularly since it absolves us of having to assume that Tommen has been magically aged up since season 2.

 

Couldn't a few months make a lot difference? I don't know much about male puberty.

 

It could. There is, shall we say, a first time for everything.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Dev F

[Featherhat]

To me it didn't seem any more crass than any other consensual sex on the show that were still a bit skeevy. But that is because I'm picturing Tommen in my head as no younger than 16, although it is possible he's supposed to be younger than that and the show will only hint at it. Maybe I knew some dorky, naïve 16 year olds, but he didn't strike me as *obviously* pre pubescent. He was enthusiastic and a little naive, she was manipulating him through pillow talk, almost the happiest relationship on the show right now. I'd rather watch that than more "Sansa is exploited by more men she's terrified of for heirs to Winterfell".

I'm not sure that that UK has a rule forbidding it, it's certainly had its fair share of adult/uderage sex" depicted on screen, although I'm sure there are strict rules about how its done. But the actor is 18 so they probably have more leeway on that. It's possible the actress was uncomfortable with it. Or they want to keep it vague so we *don't* get a big controversy about Margaery.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Featherhat

[Pete Martell]

To me it didn't seem any more crass than any other consensual sex on the show that were still a bit skeevy. But that is because I'm picturing Tommen in my head as no younger than 16, although it is possible he's supposed to be younger than that and the show will only hint at it. Maybe I knew some dorky, naïve 16 year olds, but he didn't strike me as *obviously* pre pubescent. He was enthusiastic and a little naive, she was manipulating him through pillow talk, almost the happiest relationship on the show right now. I'd rather watch that than more "Sansa is exploited by more men she's terrified of for heirs to Winterfell".

 

There were several reasons it felt crass to me - knowing Natalie Dormer was uncomfortable with it, knowing that Tommen was written so much as a child last season, and the scenes the next day where Margaery tee-heed with her handmaidens about how good he was, which felt like something out of a frathouse comedy. 

 

I felt like they chose to make sure Margaery was portrayed in the most base way possible throughout. Up to this point her manipulations had been presented with slightly more complexity.

 

There was this odd, leering tone that unsettled me, both in that scene, and in her scenes the next day.

[Shanna]

I think the only thing squicky to me is knowing the actress is 32. In show I think of her as 18-20 at most and I don't think that's creepy. They aged tommen up and her down. He was eager and a teenager, even if he's a young one at whatever age he is supposed to be on the show. No creepier to me than dany and drogo or any number of historical marriages.

Tommen seems to be old enough to me. He does have a baby face but that is normal for a teenage boy. Joffrey had a bit of a baby face to me too.

[Dev F]

Maybe I knew some dorky, naïve 16 year olds, but he didn't strike me as *obviously* pre pubescent.

 

But it's not just his behavior in the past couple seasons that leads me to that conclusion. It's also the fact that his own uncle (Renly) described him as an eight-year-old in season 1, and that he's clearly still a little boy at the end of season 2. And that his mother gave birth to another child between him and Joffrey.

 

I mean, it's certainly possible that the writers decided to retcon some or all of those details, but until they present some detail that is incompatible with the original conception of the character, I'm going to assume that the characterization is still supposed to be coherent and consistent.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Dev F

[SilverShadow]

IIRC it was Loras who said that, but still. So if we're generous and say Tommen was almost 9 at the start of season 1, by her wedding to Tyrion Sansa was still 14, unless she was lying. So, again, giving leeway and assuming she was almost 15, that puts near the end of season 3 at 2ish years. If we add another year for season 4 (though it was probably more like months) Tommen is 12.

 

If we want to ignore that, New Myrcella's actress was born in October 1999, and assuming they want something close to the character's age, she's 14ish, so I'd say at absolute max Tommen could be that age, if they decide Myrcella is 15.

[Hecate7]

I think the only thing squicky to me is knowing the actress is 32. In show I think of her as 18-20 at most and I don't think that's creepy. They aged tommen up and her down. He was eager and a teenager, even if he's a young one at whatever age he is supposed to be on the show. No creepier to me than dany and drogo or any number of historical marriages.

Tommen seems to be old enough to me. He does have a baby face but that is normal for a teenage boy. Joffrey had a bit of a baby face to me too.

 

 

Tommen is fine. I think people forget that the practice of "saving it for marriage" originally came out of the fact that people were married so young that it was fairly easy to do that. There didn't used to be a 10 or 20 year period between entering puberty and getting married, and so girls especially were generally virgins when they married. Nowadays nobody is expected to be a virgin, because the idea of a 30 year old virgin is as weird to us as the idea of a sexually active 14 year old. But neither one is inherently weird.

 

In modern times an age difference like that between Tommen and Margaery is frowned on because the older party is assumed to be controlling the younger party and depriving him/her of the chance to bond with his/her own generation and find a mate there. That's not an issue here. Tommen was always going to be married for state reasons, not personal ones. He got extremely lucky, with a young, beautiful, intelligent wife who will treat him well and make sure that he's having a good time when they're together. Margaery is probably bored out of her mind, but this king at least is much easier to manage than Joffrey.

[Dev F]

IIRC it was Loras who said that, but still.

 

That's right, it was. I was misremembering who said what in that scene.

 

So if we're generous and say Tommen was almost 9 at the start of season 1, by her wedding to Tyrion Sansa was still 14, unless she was lying. So, again, giving leeway and assuming she was almost 15, that puts near the end of season 3 at 2ish years. If we add another year for season 4 (though it was probably more like months) Tommen is 12.

 

Yep, I just found an interview where the actor who plays the role confirmed as much: "Tommen's so young, I try to do a higher-pitched voice. . . . It's kind of hard to get in the mind of a 12-year-old, because I can't even remember being 12. And Tommen is so young, he's like a baby."

 

(Though it's probably not healthy to think too much about the timeline of the series, because there are parts of it that definitely don't hold up under scrutiny. There are weird inconsistencies like Sansa saying she's still fourteen in season 3, even though Talisa says in the episode immediately previous that the War of the Five Kings has been going on for two years. And if you really try to track the passage of time from episode to episode you get in even more trouble, largely because the writers are constantly dating things too precisely and too close together, so that every major event happens a "fortnight" after the last major event. Not to mention that they have real problems with babies staying the same age for years on end.)

Edited April 29, 2015 by Dev F

[Lady S.]

 

Yep, I just found an interview where the actor who plays the role confirmed as much: "Tommen's so young, I try to do a higher-pitched voice. . . . It's kind of hard to get in the mind of a 12-year-old, because I can't even remember being 12. And Tommen is so young, he's like a baby."

A-Ha! Can we just take the actor's word for it now? If they were going full SORAS, why not do their best to make Tommen more grown up? It doesn't make sense to me to say he magically aged 5 years in one season offscreen, but that he must still be sheltered and naive because of his previously established parental relationships. If he acts as naively as s1 Sansa, it makes more sense to me assume he's the same age as s1 Sansa.

 

Anyway, I think the squicky part was not the sex, but Marg using it to manipulate him. They're not getting to know each other as man and wife when she's just agreeing to whatever he likes and giving no indication of what she's really like. It was one thing to watch her play Joff like a fiddle, a bit different with his little brother enjoying the throes of young love. If the consummation was just shown as Marg awkwardly doing her duty it wouldn't be that bad, but her using it as an opportunity to wrap her child groom around her finger and seize power from Cersei leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I'm sure she likes him okay but she's doesn't come off as really caring for his best interests any more than Cersei does. Both of them are using him to keep/gain power and the poor kid only thinks he's a man now when he's not at all. Here's another part from the interview Dev F. linked "He never really had contact with a woman before, not even just talking to one. And it would kill him if he thought she was insincere. He's really innocent to what's going on around him, which is rare in Game of Thrones. He's too young to know. He's easily manipulated." It would kill him to learn she was insincere? Something tells me Tommen is in for a rude awakening. (Not a spoiler, just a logical guess.) He might be old enough to have sex, but is he really equipped to handle a fully adult relationship? 

 

(Also I think it makes Marg look like she's been taking stupid pills if she thinks finally boning a husband makes her invulnerable and able to say whatever she wants to her insanely petty and vindictive mother-in-law. Poking the lioness is still pretty risky when Tommen has no real authority of his own yet.)

 

Also, I don't think the Renly/Loras bit has to mean anything, "Uncle" Renly had no real reason to correct his lover since Tommen being any older wouldn't really make a difference in their discussion of usurping the throne. I'm just going to assume tv Tommen is a couple years younger than Sansa and Myrcella is one year older than him and one younger than Sansa. I can buy the actor change as a perfectly normal growth spurt even, from what I remember of middle and high school, boys' growth spurts are very sudden and weird. Someone looking like a different person after around a year would not be uncommon. 

 

When they aged Dany up to 16 in S1, there's probably a reason they hired an actress in her 20s. That's more what tv 16 or true SORAS look like to me, not hiring a barely street-legal actor and not really changing the character's personality at all.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Lady S.

[Shanna]

The actors what 17? he doesn't really look twelve to me.

I don't think Margarey is being overly manipulative. Yes, a bit but tommen would be better off with Cersei at casterly rock IMO. And what she is saying is actually true. And she's married to the guy so she's going to do more than grin and bare it. This isn't a love match although it's a shame that Cersei babies him so much that he might not be able to see that. Certainly nothing Margarey has done so far is reasonably likely to hurt tommen.

The most interesting tommen thing was his brief comment about Joffrey. I really wish they were having him train in swordplay and showing more of his trying to grow into a man.

[Lady S.]

Does Marg want Tommen to be able to take a more active role as a ruler, though? Or would she be happy if her father was Hand, acting on her or Olenna's instructions? She's not treating him as an adult by pretending she likes Cersei and masking her true motives. She's not doing this because she cares about Cersei's competency as a ruler. Obviously Cersei is a terrible one and the mother-in-law from hell, but I don't get the idea that Tommen would really come into his own if Cersei left, he just doesn't want mummy on-hand to interrupt the sexytimes. Margy's the one encouraging him to think they're in love and she's not doing anything to develop a real political partnership. Other than maybe making sure leftovers actually get to the poor, I don't think Marg really cares what kind of king Tommen grows into, her main concern is just to be the queen. It just sticks out because Tywin made a token effort to be straight with Tommen and educate him about being a man and a king.

 

I agree about wishing to see him train in swordplay, having his new bro-in-law help teach him would also be a much better use of screentime for Loras.

 

I can buy the actor as 13 or 14, which was my guess for Tommen before seeing that interview. Or maybe it's just that male puberty and growth spurts really do confuse me. I think I remember some boys who didn't age much from 11 to 15 and others who could get into R-rated movies without being carded at the age of 13.

[Constantinople]

To those of you who claim Tommen can't be the Anti-Seven because he killed himself, I say, what more was there left for him to do?

And don't worry, he'll rise from the dead just as Martyn Lannister did.

This one's for you kid

Edited June 27, 2016 by Constantinople