John Winchester: Daddy Dearest

[mertensia]

The beer wreath was one John stole.

I think heavy drinking is heavily entrenched in the Hunting World. There are a few exceptions (Garth, for example) but they tend towards drinking from what we have seen.

I think John tried hard but I also think it was sporadic. He was lost part of the time- to PTSD, to mourning Mary, to vengeance. Even if Mary's death had been 100% natural and this was a plain old drama he'd have been that way, I think.

[SueB]

 

Also I wonder if he feels as if anyone that helps him, he is poison and the only real solution is to be alone.

Sounds like Dean's way of thinking in S9.

 

 

DEAN: What are you talking about? We had Thanksgiving every year.

SAM: We had a bucket of extra-crispy and Dad passed out on the couch.

From Dark Side of the Moon.  It could have been just tired but I always thought drunken stupor.  And I thought the Pilot established "drinking problem".  I guess I believe John was a functioning alcoholic just like Dean.***

 

I don't think the flakiness was the alcoholism, I think it was his sense of priorities (YED or bust).  And he didn't offer any excuses as to why he didn't show up.

 

Really, it all comes down to -- damn, that story about him 'being-there' when it mattered just doesn't fit.  Someone needs to ask that at a convention.

 

**Dean's liver:

- brand new in S4

- possibly fixed by Cas in S5 at the end when he fixed his face

- de-pickled in Purgatory

- MoC likely altered his physiology when he died...maybe it rebooted the liver too

Edited January 10, 2015 by SueB

[DittyDotDot]

Really, it all comes down to -- damn, that story about him 'being-there' when it mattered just doesn't fit.  Someone needs to ask that at a convention.

 

I think it fits if you remember it's from Dean's perspective. As I've said many times before, I think Dean just chooses to remember the few times John actually did come through for them over the multitude of times he failed them. I have other issues with the story, but that probably doesn't fit in this thread.

[rue721]

What I'm curious about is how Sam would react if John were to come back, especially if he came back to hunt (demon!)Dean!

[catrox14]

oh damn you rue721, I soooo want that now... so  very much

[rue721]

On 6/14/2016 at 8:55 AM, SueB said:

Through S11 spoilers:

  Hide contents

Jensen recently said he'd like a scene with John to address all of Dean's unresolved issues.  This is new, IMO, for Jensen to state this.  He used to be the staunchest John supporter on the cast IMO.  And now, I think his perspective may have changed.  Maybe it's Dean confronting Chuck. Maybe it's because Jensen is now a father. I just know that this is relatively new shift from "he did the best he could" to "I'd like to play that scene".  

In case the "hide spoilers" thing is annoying, here's the actual quote (I just wanted to use the quote function so I could give Sue B attribution):

Jensen recently said he'd like a scene with John to address all of Dean's unresolved issues.  This is new, IMO, for Jensen to state this.  He used to be the staunchest John supporter on the cast IMO.  And now, I think his perspective may have changed.  Maybe it's Dean confronting Chuck. Maybe it's because Jensen is now a father. I just know that this is relatively new shift from "he did the best he could" to "I'd like to play that scene".  

I think this is fascinating. I'm so curious what Jensen is envisioning for a confrontation scene like that. He knows Dean as a character better than anybody, so I would trust his vision. I have no idea what it is, though.

How would John react?! What would Dean want to call him out on, specifically? What would the consequences of a confrontation be? How would Sam fit into this?

Within the show, it seems like Dean has become more and more disillusioned with John since his death, whereas Sam has sanctified him somewhat. So I wonder what perspective Sam would have on a fight between Dean and John?

Honestly, I would think that Dean would just want to see John again and get to experience being around his "normal" self for a while. Wouldn't he rather get another chance to see his father as he remembers him than for John to suddenly be different, even if different = better?

[SueB]

59 minutes ago, rue721 said:

In case the "hide spoilers" thing is annoying, here's the actual quote (I just wanted to use the quote function so I could give Sue B attribution):

Jensen recently said he'd like a scene with John to address all of Dean's unresolved issues.  This is new, IMO, for Jensen to state this.  He used to be the staunchest John supporter on the cast IMO.  And now, I think his perspective may have changed.  Maybe it's Dean confronting Chuck. Maybe it's because Jensen is now a father. I just know that this is relatively new shift from "he did the best he could" to "I'd like to play that scene".  

I think this is fascinating. I'm so curious what Jensen is envisioning for a confrontation scene like that. He knows Dean as a character better than anybody, so I would trust his vision. I have no idea what it is, though.

How would John react?! What would Dean want to call him out on, specifically? What would the consequences of a confrontation be? How would Sam fit into this?

Within the show, it seems like Dean has become more and more disillusioned with John since his death, whereas Sam has sanctified him somewhat. So I wonder what perspective Sam would have on a fight between Dean and John?

Honestly, I would think that Dean would just want to see John again and get to experience being around his "normal" self for a while. Wouldn't he rather get another chance to see his father as he remembers him than for John to suddenly be different, even if different = better?

Well, my comment was (I think) before the season finale.  Now with Mary in the picture, I wonder how his POV on John will change.  I could see Dean being the John defender (like BIG TIME).  I think part of Jensen's desire to have a John conversation tied back to Chuck's "I know you had a complicated upbringing but don't confuse me for your father." Implying that Dean still has Daddy issues that he needs to address. 

Sue speculation based on Dean over the last few years: I think Dean might take him to task a bit for the perfectionism and the lack of positive feedback.  I think Dean accepts John wasn't a perfect man but even though he says he 'did the best he could', I suspect Dean may now think John was a little selfish. At this point, Dean has been hunting longer than John ever did.  He understands the need to take a few breaks and pace yourself.  I'm not sure John ever did.  And with kids, that should have been a priority.    

[catrox14]

Why would Dean defend John now just because Mary is back? I'm not seeing that correlation, unless Dean is pissed bout Mary making a deal but Dean already knew about it and seemed to make peace with it.

[bethy]

I could see how Dean might act protective of John if Mary started being critical of him. Just on a "You weren't there, you don't know, by the way, you're not all that better" kind of basis.

[SueB]

1 hour ago, bethy said:

I could see how Dean might act protective of John if Mary started being critical of him. Just on a "You weren't there, you don't know, by the way, you're not all that better" kind of basis.

Precisely.  It's not that he would immediately start singing John's praises, but if Mary started to get critical, I think Dean's natural instinct would be to defend.  I think Dean has always felt protective of John.  

And Mary COULD get critical, even if she seems hypocritical.  It's one thing to be in a defensive crouch. It's another thing to drag the kids around the country in search of revenge.  Now Dean won't phrase it that way but Cas might blurt something or it might just come out eventually.  

[Myrelle]

The secrets and lies started with her, and as such, she'd have little room to criticize; but I'd guess that it would more likely be Sam who would point that out as he is usually the writers' mouthpiece.

[rue721]

50 minutes ago, SueB said:

Well, my comment was (I think) before the season finale.  Now with Mary in the picture, I wonder how his POV on John will change.

That comment was from June 14th (although it's in the 1.18 Something Wicked thread), so it's from after the S11 finale. But I don't know when Jensen spoke about wanting Dean to have a confrontation with John -- maybe his comment is from before the finale?

7 minutes ago, SueB said:

Precisely.  It's not that he would immediately start singing John's praises, but if Mary started to get critical, I think Dean's natural instinct would be to defend.  I think Dean has always felt protective of John. 

Do you think that he would defend John against Mary though? Granted, we haven't had a chance to see John and Mary in conflict a whole lot, but whenever we have, Dean has taken Mary's side.

Also, Dean has always been VERY protective of Mary's memory and seems to have been utterly devastated by her death. And then there's the issue that Dean himself has had a lot more doubts and criticisms of John in recent years. I think that if/when Mary says anything critical, he's liable to give it a fair amount of credence, and to at least really consider whether what she's saying is true.

I do think that Sam is likely to leap to John's defense, though. His perspective on his dad has really softened since John's death. I think he dealt with his doubts and criticisms of John when John was alive, and now he's basically done with that. And more importantly, Mary is just an abstract figure to him, not really a lost loved one. He doesn't remember having a mother and he doesn't remember losing his. His family is John and Dean. I don't think he's going to actually view Mary as an interloper or anything that extreme, but I think that it's a very different prospect for Sam to accept her [back] into the family than it is for Dean.

Dean has a strong connection with Mary, but Sam doesn't really.

I have this feeling that, if anything, with Mary in the picture, Dean is likely to become more angry and critical toward John. Not sure why that's my instinct, but it is?

[catrox14]

I tend to agree with you, @rue721 .  I think at most  Dean might say something like John did the best he could in a non-argumentative way and that will be it.  I can't see him getting on a high horse about John at this point of the game.  He's been through too much.  I think Dean is going to be more worried about Mary being back from the dead and trying to process that bit of fuckery.  And Dean has a great deal of empathy, contrary to some conventional wisdom.  I think he would be more inclined to empathize with Mary's annoyance or anger towards John rather than defend it given that she's just trying to figure out WTF is happening.  Mary may not even judge the situation. She very well might just accept it quietly and be guilt ridden.

Besides we've already had Dean defend John to Henry in s8.  I'd be surprised if they repeat that beat when they have another way to go. 

[SueB]

15 minutes ago, rue721 said:

That comment was from June 14th (although it's in the 1.18 Something Wicked thread), so it's from after the S11 finale. But I don't know when Jensen spoke about wanting Dean to have a confrontation with John -- maybe his comment is from before the finale?

Do you think that he would defend John against Mary though? Granted, we haven't had a chance to see John and Mary in conflict a whole lot, but whenever we have, Dean has taken Mary's side.

Also, Dean has always been VERY protective of Mary's memory and seems to have been utterly devastated by her death. And then there's the issue that Dean himself has had a lot more doubts and criticisms of John in recent years. I think that if/when Mary says anything critical, he's liable to give it a fair amount of credence, and to at least really consider whether what she's saying is true.

I do think that Sam is likely to leap to John's defense, though. His perspective on his dad has really softened since John's death. I think he dealt with his doubts and criticisms of John when John was alive, and now he's basically done with that. And more importantly, Mary is just an abstract figure to him, not really a lost loved one. He doesn't remember having a mother and he doesn't remember losing his. His family is John and Dean. I don't think he's going to actually view Mary as an interloper or anything that extreme, but I think that it's a very different prospect for Sam to accept her [back] into the family than it is for Dean.

Dean has a strong connection with Mary, but Sam doesn't really.

I have this feeling that, if anything, with Mary in the picture, Dean is likely to become more angry and critical toward John. Not sure why that's my instinct, but it is?

It could go either way.  

If Sam and Mary gang up on John, I think Dean will defend John.  If Mary is down on herself, I think Dean might point out John's culpability.  

Dean wants a happy family that stays together. When Dean started refereeing between the two, they did a good job of making seem like this was his role.  To play the peacemaker and keep everyone happy. (See him physically separating Sam and John in Dead Man's Blood). 

 

So, I don't think Dean would initiate any conflict but if there IS conflict, I can see him attempting to dispel it.  "Everybody leaves you Dean" -- faux Mary ala Zachariah.  He's still not over that shit.  

[MysteryGuest]

I can't see Mary criticizing John, but I guess it all depends on the new writers.  I think she'll feel tremendous guilt for the fact that her sons ended up living exactly the life she didn't want for them.  But both Sam and Dean can fill her in on the fate aspects of being a Campbell/Winchester.  None of them had much of a say in how their lives played out.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't think Dean will defend or damn either parent. I think he and Sam have both come to terms with their daddy issues years ago and both seem to have the stance that John did the best he could. I definitely don't think Dean is bitter at John anymore, like he was back in S4 and S5 and I believe Sam came to terms with John long ago, as well.

I think if Mary goes on a tare about how John raised them in the life she never wanted for them--which I hope she doesn't, no one is innocent in theis mess, IMO--I think Dean will probably take a gentle hand and try to soothe her fears rather than make them worse. Like shrugging it all off more by telling her it may not have been ideal, but it wasn't all bad. And, I think Sam will follow suit on that. 

IMO, Dean's basic stance on John is: he's dead and there's nothing to be gained by wasting his time being angry at John, at this point. He wasn't perfect, but he wasn't all bad either. What happened happened, they can't change that, best to move forward rather than dwell on the past. 

Edited September 27, 2016 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

I think Dean still has issues with John, but I don't think that he'll hash them out with Mary. At least not at first and maybe never, but definitely not at first. I don't think he's ever truly hashed them out with anyone. He's addressed them within himself, now and again. We know this from episodes such as Dream a Little Dream, but DemonDean(when he was being cured), showed us that those issues are still there and still unresolved, IMO.

[Partly]

I've liked that the boys views of John have evolved over time, with both of them viewing him in less black and white terms, but for any true resolution John would have to be present.  It will be interesting to get Mary's view of John, however, I'm pretty sure trash-talking John would be a very poor character trait, especially since she had kept so many secrets from him, secrets that really, seriously affected him after her death. 

And it would really be a terrible thing to do to Dean and Sam.

[rue721]

22 minutes ago, Partly said:

It will be interesting to get Mary's view of John, however, I'm pretty sure trash-talking John would be a very poor character trait, especially since she had kept so many secrets from him, secrets that really, seriously affected him after her death.

Now I'm imagining Mary trash-talking John, Muhammad Ali-style, and it's cracking me up.

[MysteryGuest]

I honestly can't imagine her being anything but broken-hearted over the way things turned out for her family.  I can't imagine a scenario where she would blame John, really.  

[rue721]

On 9/26/2016 at 9:37 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I think he and Sam have both come to terms with their daddy issues years ago and both seem to have the stance that John did the best he could. I definitely don't think Dean is bitter at John anymore, like he was back in S4 and S5 and I believe Sam came to terms with John long ago, as well.

That's why it's so interesting imo that, apparently, Jensen is now talking about wanting Dean to have a chance to hash things out with John face-to-face. He must understand the character better than anyone. So why would he want a confrontation between Dean and John now, and what would he expect to come of it? It's not like that's something he's pressed for in the past. At least not as far as I know. Of course, I don't have a source for what exactly he said or when, I'm just going off what @SueB happened to mention in another thread, so maybe there's some context that's missing.

That said, while of course both Sam and Dean have continued on with their lives, etc, and weren't encased in amber in S2, I do think that:

1. Dean in particular does say and do things relatively often that make him seem...not totally at peace with John (basically, same as @Myrelle); and,

2. Mary coming back from the grave has got to stir up a lot of old grief. There's a lot of stuff that I would expect the guys to have come to terms with a long time ago -- but that is now totally upended. Especially for Sam. I mean, he must have come to terms with not having a mother, and yet now (as a 33 y/o?!) he's suddenly got one? Weird.

9 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

I honestly can't imagine her being anything but broken-hearted over the way things turned out for her family.  I can't imagine a scenario where she would blame John, really.  

Yeah, I agree, I don't expect Mary to actively trash John, not only because that would be rude and hurtful to her sons, but also because all signs point to her truly loving the man. (Btw, does she even know that he's dead?!).

And yeah, I do think that Mary is likely to be heartbroken over what her husband and sons have gone through. Nobody wants to be lamented over like that, though. Regardless that it would probably be coming from a good place (from love, etc). I mean, I'm sorry but I know that I wouldn't want my mother crying over how terrible and pathetic my life has been without her. LOL. How depressing. So I can see how that could make a person feel defensive.

Do I think that Dean in particular would feel defensive? No. Dean's been so protective of Mary's memory, and has clearly spent so much time thinking about how things would have been different if she hadn't died, that tbh anything that she brings up about their past/family is probably something he's already thought about at length before. If anything, I actually think it would maybe be freeing for him to have someone expressing stuff that's historically been pretty taboo for them.

Do I think Sam will feel defensive? Maybe, maybe not. I do think he's liable to be distant and have a little trouble connecting with her. Sam doesn't know this woman at all and knows he's a stranger to her, too. I think having her there might be awkward and uncomfortable for him, and maybe even make him miss John somewhat. I mean, it's weird to have this stranger/parent show up, right? Wouldn't that make you miss your actual parent? But who knows. I mean, Sam sometimes is Mr. Sensitivity, so maybe he'll connect with her great!

Anyway, don't even ask me how having Mary there might effect Dean and Sam's relationship, because my only child self has no clue.

[DittyDotDot]

4 hours ago, rue721 said:

That's why it's so interesting imo that, apparently, Jensen is now talking about wanting Dean to have a chance to hash things out with John face-to-face. He must understand the character better than anyone. So why would he want a confrontation between Dean and John now, and what would he expect to come of it? It's not like that's something he's pressed for in the past. At least not as far as I know. Of course, I don't have a source for what exactly he said or when, I'm just going off what @SueB happened to mention in another thread, so maybe there's some context that's missing.

I remember Jensen saying he would love to see John back and it might be nice for Dean to get a chance to address some of his issues with John, but I don't entirely remember the context of the comment. I'm pretty sure it was at a con back in March or April, though, which is when they would've been filming the final episodes. I remember thinking it was interesting because there had been some rumors of Samantha Smith being on set, which probably meant they were bringing Mary back in some form. At the time, I didn't consider it would be permanent, but that she was probably an echo of Mary; either a ghost or a memory to throw at Dean before he made his big sacrifice. Looking back, it's even more interesting, considering he probably knew they were bringing back Mary instead of John and considering they brought Chuck back who was always analogous to John in Kripke's story.

Anyway, for some reason, I was thinking the question was who they would like for the show to bring back. Which they get asked quite a bit, so I could be confusing questions and answers here. Jensen very frequently answers that he'd love for John to come back. So, I'm not sure Jensen is necessarily wanting a confrontation between Dean and John--or that this idea is new to him--but I assumed he was giving an compelling reason why they could bring John back.

I've always taken Jensen's comments to be more about Jensen wanting to work with Jeffery Dean Morgan again than it being about the character of John and Dean, though. So, I don't think that just any John will do for Jensen, I think it needs to be Jeffery Dean Morgan's John.  And, for this scenario to work, it really can't be Matt Cohen's John because that's not the John Dean would have issues with. Even though I think Matt Cohen could now reasonably play an older John now.

I don't mean to say Dean doesn't still have some daddy issues, but I think, short of John showing up so Dean can address them, Dean's at a place of peace with John right now. I think it would be weird for Dean to address his daddy issues with Mary, though. I'm betting he has enough mommy issues to fill the melodrama quota here. But, who knows with this show? They do love to mine all the melodrama they can.

[Partly]

5 hours ago, rue721 said:

Sam doesn't know this woman at all and knows he's a stranger to her

They are all strangers.  

Knowing your mother at 4-years-old is not knowing her at all.  Hell, knowing your mother at 14 isn't knowing her at all.  You can't really understand your parents until you adult for a while, until you walk in there shoes and deal with them as adults -- and they deal with you as an adult.. Knowing your child at 4-years-old isn't knowing them either.  The "he was such a good baby" or "OMG she was a terror when she was three" doesn't translate into adulthood -- and we should be thankful for that because we were all jerks at some point growing up.  If we're lucky, we get the chance to leave that behind and be judged based on who we are right now.

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't mean to say Dean doesn't still have some daddy issues, but I think, short of John showing up so Dean can address them, Dean's at a place of peace with John right now

I agree with this.  I also think Jensen's statement about wanting Dean to be able to address some issues with John may have a great deal to do with his own growing family -- having kids greatly influences your relationships with your own parents.  It makes you see things differently and understand their circumstances. Jensen may just be expressing a desire to show that type of change in Dean.  Now Dean doesn't have kids, but all the hell that he's been through, all the different choices he's made, all the crap he's contributed too and all the crap he's helped stop gives him a different perspective and I'm sure that there are a lot of things that he would be able to talk to John about.

More interesting, at least to me, would be what John would think about all of this.  Everything that's happened to his boys, the choices they've made, the men they've become.  Mary is, basically, a blank slate but John had a history, a personality and a hell of a lot of baggage.  In many ways, the boys never had an adult-to-adult relationship with John and I think that could be part of what Jensen would like to explore with his remark.

[SueB]

Quote

Anyway, don't even ask me how having Mary there might effect Dean and Sam's relationship, because my only child self has no clue.

I imagine they'll be a moment when it's just the two of them, like when God was in the shower, where they just are like "WHAT THE HELL!?" and talking about her.  Sam and Dean are each other's touchstone.  They'll need to talk to each other to process her arrival.

Regarding Dean, the thing that sticks in my head are there four specific comments made in the in the last 5 years:

Dean to Ghost Jo in 7.04 Defending Your Life:

Quote

Dean: He was right you know. That dick judge. About me. 

Jo: No, he wasn't.
Dean: You were a kid.
Jo: Not true.

Dean: You and Sam. No, I just, you know... Hunters are never kids. I never was. I didn't even stop to think about it.

Dean to Henry in 8.12 As Time Goes By:

Quote

Henry: John was a legacy. I was supposed to teach him the ways of the Letters.

Dean: Well, he learned things a little differently.
Henry: How?

Dean: The hard way. Surviving a lonely childhood, a stinking war... only to get married and have his wife taken by a demon... and later killed by one himself. That man got a bum rap around every turn. But you know what? He kept going. And in the end, he did a hell of a lot more good than he did bad.

Demon!Dean to Sam in 11.03 Soul Survivor:

Quote

SAM: No. No, you don’t. You don’t get to quit. We don’t get to quit in this family! This family is all we have ever had!
DEAN: Well, then, we got nothin’.

SAM: Would you say that to Dad?
DEAN: Dad? Oh, there’s a prize. There’s a man who brainwashed us into wasting our lives fighting his losing battle!

Dean to God in 11.21:

Quote

Dean: Well from where I sit, it feels like you left us and you're trying to to justify.

Chuck: I know you had a complicated upbringing, Dean. But don't confuse me with your dad.

Even if he can be a dick, God IS omnipotent -- so he knows IMO that Dean has unresolved issues.  

But honestly, Dean loves his Dad so much, I think there would be an overwhelming sense of love that outweighs most things.  It's only if he had a chance to really sit and talk that somethings would come up IMO.  

[catrox14]

Jensen was asked about who he would like to see back. He said John as he has many times before. He has  said that Dean (not Jensen) is starting to realize that John took away Deans childhood and how could he do that. It's a realization that demon! Dean spoke of so there is probably some measure of truth in how Dean feels about his childhood and John. . Maybe being a demon  gave Dean permission to acknowledge how own anger towards John. IMO, he would not put  Johns' failures on Mary. I'll actually be really pissed if theydo that. Dean may not have liked the deal that Mary made but he understood it on some level given he made a deal for Sam, so he accepted it and from all that I know he more or less forgave her.

[Myrelle]

Quote

Jensen was asked about who he would like to see back. He said John as he has many times before. He has  said that Dean (not Jensen) is starting to realize that John took away Deans childhood and how could he do that. It's a realization that demon! Dean spoke of so there is probably some measure of truth in how Dean feels about his childhood and John.

I remember Jensen saying this precise thing, too. I'm hopeful that Mary will show some measure of sympathy for Dean's childhood plight. That's what I'd like to see more than anything else. I'd like her to be tender and understanding with Dean over being parentified as a child as this IMO has so often been glossed over as no big deal within show in the past. I don't really want Mary to feel guilty, as I'm sure Dean wouldn't want either, but she likely will. And he will likely wind up comforting her, of course.

Geez, I got a lump in my throat just typing that. I really don't want to see conflict within the family over Mary's return, but I just read a recent interview with Dabb where he said there would be conflict, but they're all still family, so... just hoping that they won't ruin the core of the Dean/Mary relationship that we've seen in the past. They will of course have things that will have to learn about each other-all of them-but hopefully, the great love that Dean has always felt for his mother will not be shaken.

[rue721]

3 hours ago, Partly said:

They are all strangers.  

Knowing your mother at 4-years-old is not knowing her at all.  Hell, knowing your mother at 14 isn't knowing her at all.  You can't really understand your parents until you adult for a while, until you walk in there shoes and deal with them as adults -- and they deal with you as an adult.. Knowing your child at 4-years-old isn't knowing them either.  The "he was such a good baby" or "OMG she was a terror when she was three" doesn't translate into adulthood -- and we should be thankful for that because we were all jerks at some point growing up.  If we're lucky, we get the chance to leave that behind and be judged based on who we are right now.

I agree with you in a sense. It's not like anyone can just pick up right where he left off at 4 y/o, when he's 37! And the fact that Sam and Dean will have to create adult relationships with Mary is a big reason why I think this is a really cool storyline! I'm super excited for it :D.

But where I disagree...or maybe disagree is too strong, but where I quibble ;)...is that I also think it's important that Dean and Mary actually did get a chance to establish some sort of relationship as mother and son. Even if Dean has only very hazy memories of his mother, he does remember losing her and the difference between having her and not. And I think that's had an enormous effect on him. He had a dead mother, rather than no mother. Whereas Sam and Mary didn't get that chance to bond, and Sam has no real conception of having a mother, what their lives could have been like, etc etc etc. Sam and Mary have no relationship to build on at all.

Sam's only point of reference for mother/son relationships is actually coming from Dean, which is bizarre and sad for all kinds of reasons. I mean, it's not like a little boy can fill his mother's shoes in really any sense. Although god help him, Dean did try.

I know that people bring up that Dean is Sam's "real father," etc. I disagree. I think that John is Sam's "real father." I do think that Dean is essentially Sam's mother, though. The closest he has to one, anyway. Maybe that's also liable to lead to complications between them and between Sam and Mary now that Mary is back in the picture? Not even conflicts necessarily, but complications.

Also, Dean seems to have had an extraordinarily difficult time dealing with his mother's death. And I think the damage done is meant to be obvious within the show, because it was apparently obvious to Amara, given that she decided that what Dean -- a grown adult who has been through Hell ffs -- wants most is his mother back. And it's a credit to the show that I actually do find that plausible. That in itself will have to be difficult for Mary to see.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Jensen was asked about who he would like to see back. He said John as he has many times before. He has  said that Dean (not Jensen) is starting to realize that John took away Deans childhood and how could he do that. It's a realization that demon! Dean spoke of so there is probably some measure of truth in how Dean feels about his childhood and John. . Maybe being a demon  gave Dean permission to acknowledge how own anger towards John. IMO, he would not put  Johns' failures on Mary. I'll actually be really pissed if theydo that. Dean may not have liked the deal that Mary made but he understood it on some level given he made a deal for Sam, so he accepted it and from all that I know he more or less forgave her.

It wouldn't surprise me if Jensen's perception of John (and of Dean's backstory) has changed now that he has children. It's kind of fun and cool to imagine protecting your family from monsters with a sawed off shotgun at age 9, but when you imagine yourself putting your own kid in that position at age 9?! Hell no.

Also, times have changed. Jensen is a father NOW, so he's seeing parenting and family life through the lens of what's normal and loving to do now. Whereas before, he was probably seeing parenting and family life through the lens of what was normal and loving to do when he was growing up.

I mean, if this show were remade today, with main characters born in 1989 and 1993 instead of ten years earlier, would John's characterization (and the boys' backstory) have been significantly different? What about if the main characters were meant to be born in 1999 and 2003?!

Anyway what I actually meant to say before that long digression is that I don't think that Dean himself would ever blame Mary for his issues with John! But I get the feeling that a lot of Dean's issues with John actually did stem from him needing help dealing with Mary's death that John just wasn't equipped to give him. Can't explain exactly, but something about Dean's...I dunno, attentiveness (?) toward John unnerves me.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

It wouldn't surprise me if Jensen's perception of John (and of Dean's backstory) has changed now that he has children. It's kind of fun and cool to imagine protecting your family from monsters with a sawed off shotgun at age 9, but when you imagine yourself putting your own kid in that position at age 9?! Hell no.

Jensen doesn't talk about Dean's characterization often enough for my tastes at cons and that is largely because he's rarely asked about it. It's mostly silly questions. He's often said how it's not how HE/Jensen would react or think or behave but it is how Dean would behave in his understanding of Dean.  It struck me as purposeful not just Jensen musing like he does about wanting Benny back. 

IMO what Jensen said is supported by Dean's character arc since s1. Dean may very well NOT have been able to acknowledge it to himself because of feeling too guilty or that if he does he's being disloyal to John or John's memory and loyalty is pretty high if not THING 1 on Dean's list of important things. 

Dean didn't support John's vengeance by the end of s1, not if it meant tearing the family apart.  John never called him back when he needed him the most.  Dean was tasked with the worst job ever when John sold his soul for Dean, with Save Sam or kill Sam requirement.  He said pretty specifically that Dean was as starting to realize it.  His dream in s3 showed that at least his subconscious was angry with John for the burdens John placed on him 

Quote

DEAN: (screaming angrily)
My father was an obsessed bastard!

DREAM DEAN tries to get up and DEAN kicks him down on the desk again. DEAN holds the weapon as a bat and hits DREAM DEAN once and then pins him to the wall with it.

DEAN: All that crap he dumped on me, about protecting Sam! That was his crap. He's the one who couldn't protect his family. He-

DEAN steps back and swings the weapon again, hitting DREAM DEAN twice.

DEAN : He's the one who let Mom die.

DEAN pins DREAM DEAN again.

DEAN: – who wasn't there for Sam. I always was! He wasn't fair! I didn't deserve what he put on me.

He backs away from DREAM DEAN.

DEAN: And I don't deserve to go to Hell!

And as I mentioned before demon!Dean himself talked about being brainwashed.

I think Dean understands intellectually that John did the best he could, but still feels deep inside it was fucked up.  I think Jensen was speaking to all of that history for Dean.  Maybe that comment rose out of some discussions Jensen had with TPTB.

[Partly]

41 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Dean understands intellectually that John did the best he could, but still feels deep inside it was fucked up

Absolutely.  You just have to look at that dialogue to see that: On an emotional level (at this point) Dean blames John for Mary's death - "He's the one who let Mom die".  It's a very natural extension of his 4-year-old-self's belief that his Dad can do anything.  I love that Dean well-and-truly believed his dad to be a superhero who could do anything and that belief fed that hidden and ignored hatred that the "superhero" couldn't save the person most important to them all. 

Then you add to it the fact that, when he goes back in time, Dean sees first hand that it was his dad had no chance at of saving Mary and, in fact, Mary had a hand in her own demise.  He suddenly has this knowledge that his dad wasn't even close to the hunter that Dean grew up with.  Trying to reconcile the knowledge that John-in-the-past was just as much a victim as Dean and Sam just adds to the conflicting emotions that he has regarding his dad.

[bethy]

I've always felt this statement from John to Dean from In My Time of Dying - "You shouldn't have had to say that to me, I should have been saying that to you. You know, I put, I put too much on your shoulders, I made you grow up too fast. You took care of Sammy, you took care of me. You did that, and you didn't complain, not once. I just want you to know that I am so proud of you" essentially freed Dean up to consciously acknowledge that his father wasn't perfect and that Dean himself had been wronged in how John had treated him growing up. I think it also accounts for some of Dean's reaction after John's death. In a sense he lost the image of his dad as well as the man himself. 

I would love to see a scene between Dean and John. I think it could bring Dean a more lasting sense of peace about his relationship with his dad. I think he's made his peace to the extent possible without being able to talk to the person you've needed to forgive and accept, but I think getting to talk it out with John would help him put it completely to rest. 

[rue721]

I think that Dean's issue with John on behalf of Mary is essentially that John made a lot of decisions in her name that she wouldn't actually have wanted. Like John dedicating his life to (ostensibly) avenging her. Like training her kids to be hunters. Like using her death as the family's personal "Remember the Alamo!" rallying cry.

Thinking about it now, I bet Mary won't be happy to hear about any of that now. She might be seriously pissed off at John after all!

So anyway, I think Dean has a problem with how John essentially used Mary/her death to manipulate his kids. Maybe it was purposeful and maybe not. But either way, it's a fucked up thing to do tbh. And John also used Sam to manipulate Dean imo.

I don't think that Dean really realized any of that had been happening until he was well into adulthood, though. The change in Dean's perspective seemed to happen during the course of the show. Maybe it took John's death to give Dean enough distance from his father to actually see how he was being jerked around?

I think Sam saw it a bit earlier, though. At least in terms of how he himself (and threats to his safety) were used to control his brother. At the latest, he realized that in the S1 episode Something Wicked imo.

Anyway, I think some of Dean's bitterness toward John in more recent years (ie, since John's death) is him feeling manipulated and maybe even used, which he only really grokked to in hindsight. And honestly I think he has a right to feel pretty bitter about that issue in particular. It's disturbing.

Wow, and now I'm thinking that Mary would be be pretty disturbed by it, too!

[Partly]

5 hours ago, rue721 said:

Thinking about it now, I bet Mary won't be happy to hear about any of that now. She might be seriously pissed off at John after all!

Maybe. 

However, John did all of it because he saw his wife die horrifically, pinned to the ceiling and bleeding on their baby's crib, right before busting into flames and starting a fire that almost killed his entire family. 

Now when Mary saw John die, killed by her demon-possessed father, she made a deal with that same demon that actually led up to the events that John witnessed and marked Sam with demon blood. 

Not really sure she has the right to cast stones at John. 

In all honesty, my view of John is less harsh than yours appears to be. To quote one of my favorite lines "Life is a terrible thing to happen to someone".  And John'a qualifies as terrible.

I see him as lost to this war-footing he suddenly found himself on, having to protect his children from forces he doesn't understand and that most people don't believe in. 

I'm not sure there was any good way for him to deal with everything, just bad choices with unpredictable consequences. I think that's something Mary should understand.  

[DittyDotDot]

6 hours ago, rue721 said:

I think that Dean's issue with John on behalf of Mary is essentially that John made a lot of decisions in her name that she wouldn't actually have wanted. Like John dedicating his life to (ostensibly) avenging her. Like training her kids to be hunters. Like using her death as the family's personal "Remember the Alamo!" rallying cry.

How would John even know Mary did or didn't want her kids raised as hunters since she kept him in the dark about it all? In his own fucked up way, John was trying to protect their kids and is that really something John would've thought Mary would've been opposed to? I'm just not sure Mary has any right to be pointing fingers at John.

[bearcatfan]

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

How would John even know Mary did or didn't want her kids raised as hunters since she kept him in the dark about it all? In his own fucked up way, John was trying to protect their kids and is that really something John would've thought Mary would've been opposed to? I'm just not sure Mary has any right to be pointing fingers at John.

I agree. It's not as if John and Mary discussed the matter. In order for John to knowingly go against Mary's wishes, he would need to know those wishes. She never told him.

Edited September 29, 2016 by bearcatfan

[rue721]

Well sure, I think John did his best. It's not like he didn't love his kids (or his wife). But he did take a pretty extreme view. It's not like there weren't other choices, and he wasn't a dumbass, he knew that.

Big example:  he could have prioritized his family over vengeance. Really, he could have just prioritized it more often in general. He didn't need to have ZERO normalcy ALL the time in order to CONSTANTLY save other people. Like, he didn't actually HAVE to miss Xmas or whatever, he could have taken a day or two off. He also could have reined back some of the self-destructiveness in general. He didn't actually have to live in a war zone 24-7. I think he was coming mostly from a good place with his workaholism, not wanting other people to go through what he went through yadda yadda yadda, and who knows, maybe he's supposed to have prioritized his kids and even himself more than I'm thinking anyway -- but he really seemed to put his family on the backburner in some ways and that sucks.

Small example:  if Bobby could have a house and do essentially the same job as John, how come John couldn't handle having a home base like that, too? Ellen even ran a business in a stable location ffs. For the sake of the show, obviously it's good he didn't have a home base. But really, who isolates their kids like that. And speaking of isolating, it's also not that great that he's running around scamming all the time instead of working even some sort of semi-straight job, either. (And unnecessary, because he actually had portable skills). Not so much because scamming a credit card company or whatever is really THAT big of a deal deal, but that's so isolating, too. Just zero connection to the straight world.

Although the show has maybe been trying to actively combat any "John was obsessive" and "John was pretty absent as a father" sentiments, what with having Sam and Dean literally say things like "he was always there." So who knows.

And it's also possible I'm being too harsh! I go back and forth on John.

[rue721]

Oh and

10 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

How would John even know Mary did or didn't want her kids raised as hunters since she kept him in the dark about it all? In his own fucked up way, John was trying to protect their kids and is that really something John would've thought Mary would've been opposed to? I'm just not sure Mary has any right to be pointing fingers at John.

Fair enough

[SueB]

IMO John lost perspective and balance. He wasn't just protecting his boys, he was training soldiers to help him.  And by the time he found out about Adam, he had enough time to go to baseball games once a year for their birthday.  John forgot Christmas for Sam and Dean or it wasn't a priority.  I get his trauma turning the boys into hunters to protect them. It's not the way many would go, but I can see someone rationalizing that.  But, as John himself said, he stopped being their father and turned into their Drill Sargent.  That's where he failed the boys.  That and driving both boy's self-esteem into the dirt, especially Dean. Dean, it seems, got the worst of it and tried to provide SOME balance for Sam when John didn't. No one did that for Dean.

So, Mary may not get all of that.  I think knowing he raised them as hunters, I agree she doesn't have a lot of room to criticize because she ultimately left her family vulnerable.  BUT, John's failures as a father went beyond just going into the hunting life. He really WAS obsessed.  Sam and Dean had to pull him back -- he was prepared to die to kill the YED and he still blamed Sammy for not shooting him. That's whack.  But I don't know if Mary is going to get the full picture.  

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Well sure, I think John did his best. It's not like he didn't love his kids (or his wife). But he did take a pretty extreme view. It's not like there weren't other choices, and he wasn't a dumbass, he knew that.

Big example:  he could have prioritized his family over vengeance. Really, he could have just prioritized it more often in general. He didn't need to have ZERO normalcy ALL the time in order to CONSTANTLY save other people. Like, he didn't actually HAVE to miss Xmas or whatever, he could have taken a day or two off. He also could have reined back some of the self-destructiveness in general. He didn't actually have to live in a war zone 24-7. I think he was coming mostly from a good place with his workaholism, not wanting other people to go through what he went through yadda yadda yadda, and who knows, maybe he's supposed to have prioritized his kids and even himself more than I'm thinking anyway -- but he really seemed to put his family on the backburner in some ways and that sucks.

Small example:  if Bobby could have a house and do essentially the same job as John, how come John couldn't handle having a home base like that, too? Ellen even ran a business in a stable location ffs. For the sake of the show, obviously it's good he didn't have a home base. But really, who isolates their kids like that. And speaking of isolating, it's also not that great that he's running around scamming all the time instead of working even some sort of semi-straight job, either. (And unnecessary, because he actually had portable skills). Not so much because scamming a credit card company or whatever is really THAT big of a deal deal, but that's so isolating, too. Just zero connection to the straight world.

Although the show has maybe been trying to actively combat any "John was obsessive" and "John was pretty absent as a father" sentiments, what with having Sam and Dean literally say things like "he was always there." So who knows.

And it's also possible I'm being too harsh! I go back and forth on John.

Like I always say, John Winchester is a contradictory fuck. 

I sympathized with John in s1 early. I thought this poor man lost his wife to some terrifying thing in a terrifying way and now has to raise two young boys.  He was distraught and broken I'm sure. I think he did do the best he could at that time.  But when he abandoned Dean in Dean's most desperate moments in Home and Faith without as much a morse code or smoke signal to let Dean know he couldn't come, my sympathy went out the window. They almost got it back in 2.1 when he acknowledged he shouldn't have saddled Dean with the kinds of responsibility as a little boy  that he did. But then nope it was gone again when in that same breath John re-upped Dean into that role (which yes by this time Dean was ingrained into doing) but he still essentially negated his entire apology. In a way, it's almost really as much manipulation of Dean in that moment as it was an apology. I've wondered if John's words were to meant to give Dean a pep talk abut what a good boy he was with "You never once complained"  before dropping the bomb about Save Sam or Kill Sam when he knew he was going to sell his soul to Azazel. Truly, as much as I love JDM, I only want John (JDM John that is) back so Dean can talk to him about what he feels about things for Dean's sake. 

Speaking of in 2.1, if John was able to sell his soul for Dean's life, that implies that Dean really did die at some point right? I mean a crossroads demon can't make a deal for an undead soul, can they?

[Myrelle]

I think John's greatest failing as a parent was that he put his obsession with finding and killing what took his wife before his sons/children. I hope that after all is said and done, Mary will eventually come to understand this, and not feel too much guilt about anything. She also was just trying to do the best that she could, right up until the YED took her life, by hoping to keep her sons/children out of the kind of life that she was raised in, and mainly because of how messed up it is for anyone to have to live that life. She will have so much to catch up with. I wonder if the brothers will tell her that the angels manipulated both hers and John's feelings about each other in order for the brothers to be born so that they could have their Apocalypse. I wonder how she will feel about angels then.

I'm always of two minds when I see the sentiment expressed that John did the best that he could especially where it pertains to Dean. I can't fathom how he could say that or even think it, himself-and we saw in IMTOD through that speech at Dean's bedside that he knew that he'd made grave mistakes with Dean even while he laid yet another heavy responsibility on Dean's shoulders at the very same time; and the heaviest one ever, truth be told, precisely because of all the others that Dean had had to carry from childhood-parental ones that John apparently didn't find as satisfying or engaging as hunting or obsessing over Mary's killer-until he heard of Adam, apparently.

But still he felt that he'd done the best that he could. Those were his last words to Sam. Maybe he felt that he did the best that he could for Sam. IDK. but those words have never sat well with me coming from John-not where it concerned Dean, anyway. I can absolutely understand in the immediate aftermath how hard it would have been; but after years, one would hope that he would have realized what he'd done to Dean. He must have realized it most definitely when he learned of Adam, and the steps he took concerning Adam is even direct evidence of that. But still he wasn't brave enough to tell them of Adam at all. Again, IDK. Maybe the apology in IMTOD was the best he could come up with for Dean, but it's always fallen short for me, as I've never been able to work up too much sympathy for the character after Something Wicked.

And Dean saying that John was always there for them is sadder than sad to me because we know that's not true. We've seen it with our own eyes over the course of the series that John often was not there for them, and he was especially not always there for his eldest. It's just another lie that Dean has likely told himself over the course of the years and from childhood on to make the family dynamic appear better to himself. Not being a psychiatrist or psychologist, I can still surmise/guess through simple logic that this is probably a pretty common symptom of the parentified child.

With the return of Mary, THIS is what I'm really hoping that they will address and explore in a more in-depth manner as part of her storyline. It happens in real life, too, and I think that they have written to it and JA has acted the hell out of it for many seasons, so I'd really like to see it addressed better than it's been in the past. It so overdue, IMO, that sometimes I've even wondered if they, the writers themselves, have even realized how much and how often it's been made apparent on this show.

ETA: Ha! Jinx, Catrox! ;-)

Edited September 29, 2016 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

50 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

ETA: Ha! Jinx, Catrox! ;-)

Great minds and all that!

[Myrelle]

Oh, I mean to add that I think that the best thing that John ever did for his children was to teach them to hunt and what to be on the look out for concerning the supernatural world. That, more than anything else, has helped to keep them alive and so, in that, he was right. And I'd bet the ranch that one of the brothers will point that out to her. I doubt that they will open the can of worms that Adam would represent, but he(ironically, along with John, in some ways) IS the poster child for the reason that this kind of knowledge should have been shared. Maybe that thought(again, sans the Adam info) is what will give Mary the impetus to take up the hunt again. Or...maybe someone will spill the beans to her about Adam, too.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Myrelle

[Partly]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Like I always say, John Winchester is a contradictory fuck. 

Which is, IMO, why he is such a great character.  It would have been easy to write him as a complete SOB, not caring about his kids or even being outright abusive.  However, they made him complicated, as is the boys relationships with him.  Far more interesting.  Far more real.

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I doubt that they will open the can of worms that Adam would represent, but he(ironically, along with John, in some ways) IS the poster child for the reason that this kind of knowledge should have been shared.

Wasn't part of the reason that John kept moving around, kept training Sam and Dean? Because John knew (or at least suspected) that something was still after Sam?  It could just be headcannon as I wrote a fic that included that though but I seem to recall that John was afraid that the "thing they were chasing" was still after Sam.  If John know Sam and Dean were in danger and kept them moving and training them to keep them safe (even though it didn't keep the demons away from Sam), he wouldn't have felt the same need to do that with Adam who had not supernatural baddies after him.

Not excuses or apologies, just reasons for his actions.

[Myrelle]

I'm not exactly sure what John knew concerning Sam before he(John) made the deal with the YED. That whole conversation was very ambiguous likely because the writers themselves didn't even know where they were going with the storyline at that point. I'm not even sure what we are supposed to assume that John knew or if he knew anything at all and he was just bluffing with the YED.

As for Adam, I remember Dean assuming in Jump the Shark that John wanted to keep Adam completely ignorant of the hunting life.

I don't remember ever hearing specifically what John had learned of the demon and it's plans for Sam, or even when he'd learned anything. Maybe I'm forgetting something, though?...

[bearcatfan]

While I understand not telling Mary about Adam immediately, Adam was not the result of John cheating, so, after some time has passed and Mary has come to terms with the fact that John is dead and lived for over 20 years without her, Adam shouldn't be something to necessarily hide. Of course, they never speak of Adam anyway so chances are she won't find out about him.

While JDM is currently on The Walking Dead, it's shooting schedule is usually May - November. If JDM wanted to do a few episodes, he could. They would just have to be in the latter half of the season.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Partly said:

Which is, IMO, why he is such a great character.  It would have been easy to write him as a complete SOB, not caring about his kids or even being outright abusive.  However, they made him complicated, as is the boys relationships with him.  Far more interesting.  Far more real

Oh I don't think anyone here disputes  that John is an interesting character.  It's more that our debates/discussions arise out of the love/hate or outright love or outright hate of the character or trying to understand him.  

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm not exactly sure what John knew concerning Sam before he(John) made the deal with the YED. That whole conversation was very ambiguous likely because the writers themselves didn't even know where they were going with the storyline at that point. I'm not even sure what we are supposed to assume that John knew or if he knew anything at all and he was just bluffing with the YED.

As for Adam, I remember Dean assuming in Jump the Shark that John wanted to keep Adam completely ignorant of the hunting life.

I don't remember ever hearing specifically what John had learned of the demon and it's plans for Sam, or even when he'd learned anything. Maybe I'm forgetting something, though?...

I don't know that it was all bluffing with Yellow Eyes, before John summoned Yellow Eyes, Sam asks John if he knew what Yellow Eyes's plan was for Sam. Johns says he doesn't, but ghost Dean quickly states he knows something. Plus, John did tell Dean to kill Sam if he couldn't save him, so I think John knew quite a bit.

But, I do think kept them moving because was paranoid something was after his family. He may not have known exactly what it wanted or what it was, but I think John when into survival/crisis mode after he went to see Missouri and stayed there for the next 23 years. He just couldn't think long-term, but was all about surviving til the next day. I just think he was so narrow focused on protecting them, he couldn't see anything else.

That's not to say he was right, but I do understand how he could get to that point.

[FlickChick]

Oh I think John knew a great deal about what was after them. We learned that he was seeking the Colt so that he could kill the YED long before the incident with Elkins. He also long suspected that the demon was after Sam, but he wanted "to know the truth" before he got together with Sam and Dean in "Home". And the thing that sort of proves John's danger to the YED, is that when John was making the deal for Dean, the YED said that John needed to give him "something else; something I want maybe more than the Colt", and of course, that was John's death right away along with his soul, so he couldn't keep protecting his sons.

I always felt sorry for Dean because of all the weight John put on his shoulders concerning Sam, but I do believe that John had very valid reasons. I also suspect that John knew that had he let Dean die, that with Dean's death, he would lose all connection to Sam and not be able to protect him from the YED's plans. Of course, I also believe that he loved Dean enough to want to take his place. 

[ahrtee]

25 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Oh I think John knew a great deal about what was after them. We learned that he was seeking the Colt so that he could kill the YED long before the incident with Elkins. He also long suspected that the demon was after Sam, but he wanted "to know the truth" before he got together with Sam and Dean in "Home". And the thing that sort of proves John's danger to the YED, is that when John was making the deal for Dean, the YED said that John needed to give him "something else; something I want maybe more than the Colt", and of course, that was John's death right away along with his soul, so he couldn't keep protecting his sons.

I always felt sorry for Dean because of all the weight John put on his shoulders concerning Sam, but I do believe that John had very valid reasons. I also suspect that John knew that had he let Dean die, that with Dean's death, he would lose all connection to Sam and not be able to protect him from the YED's plans. Of course, I also believe that he loved Dean enough to want to take his place. 

The other line from IMTOD was:

YED: You know the truth, right? About Sammy? And the other children?
JOHN:  Yeah. I've known for a while. 
DEMON: But Sam doesn't, does he? You've been playing dumb. 

So, yeah, John knew that something was after Sam for a long time.  In rewatching Dead Man's Blood today, you could (theoretically, in hindsight) see when John *wanted* to tell Sam something (when Sam asked why John got so mad when Sam wanted to go to college, and John said, "all I could think about was that you'd be alone. Vulnerable." ) 

[Partly]

48 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

So, yeah, John knew that something was after Sam for a long time.  In rewatching Dead Man's Blood today, you could (theoretically, in hindsight) see when John *wanted* to tell Sam something (when Sam asked why John got so mad when Sam wanted to go to college, and John said, "all I could think about was that you'd be alone. Vulnerable." ) 

Thanks!  I didn't think I imagined that! I just haven't watched the first season for quite a while  I sense rewatch in my future.

 

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Speaking of in 2.1, if John was able to sell his soul for Dean's life, that implies that Dean really did die at some point right? I mean a crossroads demon can't make a deal for an undead soul, can they?

He was making a deal for John's soul who wasn't dead. Dean wasn't dead because he hadn't been reaped yet. As Dean demonstrated when Death made him a reaper and Dean refused to reap the girl and as it was shown when the reapers were missing, you have to be reaped to die. YED kept the reaper from doing her job. 

Edited September 29, 2016 by Partly

[Myrelle]

So...he likely found something out between Home and IMTOD-because I never got the feeling that he actually knew anything in Home other than he had suspicions that the YED had designs on his entire family-not necessarily just and only Sam.

And we're supposed to assume that he found out that it  was more about Sam by the time IMTOD rolled around which would make this even more necessary:

Quote

 John knew that had he let Dean die, that with Dean's death, he would lose all connection to Sam and not be able to protect him from the YED's plans.

Because he'd never really cultivated a decent relationship with Sam, after having chosen, through the years, to instead give that task over to ChildDean to handle. So Dean should have died in IMTOD and John messed with the natural order because he'd made mistakes as a parent-and worse, he was still Dean's role model at that time, so in Dean's mind, John being willing to die in Dean's stead, set a certain precedence for Dean-that being that in order for him to give his all where it concerned the family, he should be willing to die in Sam's stead-and Dean's deal to "save" Sam would make even more sense(to Dean) with John's example only being an add-on reason to the ones that he'd specifically named to Bobby in the junkyard scene. It makes one wonder if Dean ever in his life felt as if John ever saw him as anything more than just a shield for Sam-maybe that's where the blunt little instrument, good little soldier feelings that he's always carried, originated came from. And it couldn't have helped that he knew that Sam, too, also saw him as someone who couldn't/didn't think for himself-even when he very clearly could do that and in fact had with Cassie.

Man, no wonder Dean was voted the television character most in need of therapy in that poll some years ago...

Edited September 29, 2016 by Myrelle