Indi December 24, 2014 Share December 24, 2014 Bones, Castle, Defiance (both Amanda and Stahma), Buffy... I don't watch Bones or Defiance, but aren't the leads in Bones together or something? I watched the first two seasons of Castle and Beckett had one love interest in S1 (an ex) and another one in S2 and as far as I know she's in a relationship with Castle now and probably had other love interests before him. I only watched one or two episodes of Buffy, but I remember she had a love interest in Angel. Did any of those shows have the producers and writers come out and say these characters wouldn't get love interests because strong womanhood! or lack of time!, while the other characters somehow found the time and the weakness for it? To me that's another Goffman bone, yes, I do have a plan for Abbie. Just trust me, keep watching and you'll see. Goffman having a plan for Abbie sounds terrifying. 3 Link to comment
fantique December 24, 2014 Share December 24, 2014 Indi, I guess those examples didn't have a complete lack of romance but technically Abbie has had 3 "romantic interests" and yes, they were shitty and led nowhere but they did happen. In Bones and castle, both the couples had explicitly expressed feelings by -I believe- the end of their fifth season and got together in the sixth, I'm not too sure I was binge watching so it all blurred together. In Fringe, it was clear that the make out guy wasn't really an option. I didn't remember the details but I wasn't focused on the romance angle so maybe it flew over my head in season two but it was clear that she had a real issue getting closer and it took all that time to take the leap and then she got separated from him. Really what I'm saying is that they don't want the witnesses together because that was not part of their immediate plans, not because Abbie is played by a black actress. I was trying to illustrate that saying Abbie is too busy for romance is not a romantic foil the Sleepy Hollow writers have invented, my point was that that's not a rarity at all and has been applied to white females as well as black ones. Also, while i understand concerns over the character's romantic prospects... Well, we're only a season and a half in and in "normal" season terms basically it's only been a season. Saying that she will NEVER have a romantic interest because it hasn't happened in the first 24 episodes of the series is jumping the gun IMO. The good thing here is while they didn't give her enough opportunities to fail as character since the first season, they also haven't demolished her characters and kept her mostly faithful. Her randomly going googly eyes over a guy or thinking about going on dates while on patrol/mission or whatever would seem to be OOC. I can only see her letting someone in who is already in this fight with them, maybe the new fallen angel guy, who knows. I'm just saying that I don't want the writers to think that all Abbie fans want is to see her have a completely shallow relationship as opposed to laying a great groundwork so that the romance feels good on emotional, dramatic and narrative levels. It shouldn't come out of left field, for example we still have no idea what it was supposed to be that Hawley found attractive about Abbie other than she's hot. It also would need the right chemistry, so I need to feel that I can trust them (ha!) to find Nicole a great partner with whom the interactions are natural. That's the reason why I'm not against Ichabbie since their chemistry is off the charts and they value each other (when Crane is not in a Katrina haze, although right now unless it's near season 3 ending with severe course correction I will cyber-punch the writers in the face if they even try to subtext romantic interest between them) but it would have to be done respectfully and no crappy retcon à la Vampire Diaries where suddenly they've both been in love with each other since their eyes met. That would be bullshit. That's why I'm kind of glad for the new character, I can skip the Cranes' delusional ramblings without skipping Abbie -I am sick of only seeing her have reaction shots to their bullshit- and hopefully they both gain perspective with Ichabod realising what Abbie needs in a teammate and Abbie realising that she should have punched Ichabod in the face for the Purgatory mess especially when followed by him doing things that went against their mission and the common interest of innocent lives. Link to comment
MissAlmond December 24, 2014 Share December 24, 2014 I don't know how to quote and I need to get going before the stores open for last minute Christmas shopping LOL. But Moonsky, you're correct about Kim and Metzner which is why I threw their names out there. I understand SH needing new writers, I wish I could produce them under my tree. But SH needs a replacement who could jump right in and the choices in that writer's room don't thrill me. Which is why I asked do we want Kim? Metzner? That's out of the frying pan into the fire. Or maybe in this case, out of the fire and back to the frying pan because I do think Goffman is the worst. Indi, I think Goffman's plan for Abbie is to trust him that he has a plan for Abbie. In future seasons of course. LOL. Fantique, I don't recall reading any Ichabbie fan asking for Abbie and Ichabod to stop the good fight and start declaring their love. Again, they've always said end game and when you have actors with off the charts chemistry, there really is no need to write anything different than what they're doing now. Or were doing during the golden days of Season 1. Those interactions could speak for themselves. Lorenz Hart wrote the scernio SH could use years ago. After reading Screenwriters for Dummines, perhaps the writers need to then listen to his lyrics for "I Could Write a Book". And just where are all these television shows where black females characters suddenly go all sappy over love? I'm talking about lead characters here. SH made news exactly because of the rarity of Abbie's character on TV, especially on a sci-fi show. As for racism, no, I don't think Mark Goffman is a card carrying racist. But people should really look up RIchard Donner's conversation on "Lethal Weapon". It took the great casting director Marion Dougherty to open his eyes about his own unconscous bias. They day Mark Goffman admits he's come to the same realization Donner did about himself, I'll trust him as showrunner. 1 Link to comment
MissAlmond December 24, 2014 Share December 24, 2014 Oh and one more thing. Moonsky I'm in 100% agreement about SH chances of a third season due to the overall picture at FOX. Even if SH tanks, a third season would give FOX time to develop a replacement show. I makes me wonder if they regret outright canceling Almost Human? Link to comment
fantique December 24, 2014 Share December 24, 2014 (edited) 1) Fantique, I don't recall reading any Ichabbie fan asking for Abbie and Ichabod to stop the good fight and start declaring their love. Again, they've always said end game and when you have actors with off the charts chemistry, there really is no need to write anything different than what they're doing now. Or were doing during the golden days of Season 1. 2) As for racism, no, I don't think Mark Goffman is a card carrying racist. But people should really look up RIchard Donner's conversation on "Lethal Weapon". It took the great casting director Marion Dougherty to open his eyes about his own unconscous bias. 1) I wasn't saying that that's what Ichabbie fans think, I was saying it's the opposite of what they want. They would find them hooking up right now complete bullshit as well. I was saying that with regards to Abbie not having had onscreen romance yet, it doesn't mean she will never have or they want to show her as a spinster. I also did say that I agree that the writers do not need to write into it because the chemistry does the job on its own and it makes them come across as assholes. 2) Listen, I talk all the time with the issues I have with racial profiling and the expectations/representations of races in the media. I have a gigantic problem with it -especially in the US- because there are civil rights in place, this is one of the few western countries that has such a huge percentage of its population being non-white and the public attitude has a sadly negative undercurrent sustaining buas but every time I talk about it, people bitch that I'm another European criticising the US... So I just let it go but I have a huge problem with the pervasive idea that personality types are race specifics or "black characters" being written which makes no sense to me because other than skin colour, what makes a black character different from a white/asian/etc. one in the same psycho-socioeconomic background? I just don't want to be offensive because I have such a completely different cultural perspective that it seems people get upset every time I talk about this topic. My point is that I don't think Goffman walks into a room and tries not sit close to the black people. I feel that the slighting of the black characters is incidental. He has a Katrina obsession and if Abbie was played by a white actress, her and Jenny, also a white actress, would have suffered the same amount of narrative stifling. They cast Orlando Jones before anyone so I don't think the rest of the casting has bearing on his fate but presumably, the same thing would have happened because they feel they need more story space. Do I see issues with the treatment of non-white characters? Yes*. Do I think it's a Goffman only problem? Of course not. That's what bothers me, It's like people are just making up this anti non-whites agenda with him working to destroy any positive representation of Abbie/Jenny/Irving/etc. or making sure they disappear slowly off the screen. Abbie's screen time has not significantly decreased, the failure here is due to incompetence from the writing team in accommodating new characters and their desperation to make the Cranes' storylines work. Our societies have a weird undercurrent of considering certain races in a condescending way and of course it makes its way in even if the person is not aware of it. That does not make it his fault that they exist. However, I do think that after those issues were raised with him, he should've been more aware of it now. The problem is if you (using general you here) go up to someone and publicly call them racist, how do you think they are going to react? Especially if they would never think they are? That's what I'm trying to point to here. I just find it more productive to explore his shortcomings as a head-writer than positing on his personal convictions based on actions that have been perpetuated by decades of leaders in the industry before him. It just means he's blind to the way things can appear to an audience that has a lot of baggage when it comes to those issues. That makes him an uneducated -on this issue- idiot but like I said, I wholeheartedly believe that's the case. That does not mean he's racist or hates black people. *To be fair, I see issues with every non-Katrina character in one way or another in terms of the writers' intentions for the development of said character. At least with Katrina they were trying but everyone else was pretty much changed to fit their plans for CFD which only has "good" implications for Katrina. Edited December 24, 2014 by fantique Link to comment
MissAlmond December 24, 2014 Share December 24, 2014 Again, I never said Mark Goffman was a racist. I do believe he has an unconscious bias that goes beyond simply being obsessed with the character of Katrina (OTOH, I think Raven Metzner simply has an obsession with Lynnie Greenwood/Jenny). However, since I'm sure the moderators are about to deliver an "off topic" warning, I will end with this. If a director such as Richard Donner can cry during an interview on how casting director Marion Dougherty opened his eyes, it won't hurt Mark Goffman to listen to what his viewers with different life experiences are trying to say to him. 3 Link to comment
HalcyonDays December 24, 2014 Author Share December 24, 2014 However, since I'm sure the moderators are about to deliver an "off topic" warning.... You got it. Let's get back to the topic at hand, which is What Went Wrong with the show, which let's face it, allows for lots of conversation. Also, we are going to end speculation that Goffman is racist - these are serious accusations that we cannot confirm. All we can discuss is how Abbie and others have been pushed aside or had their personality damaged this season or how a certain redhead has been monopolizing the show. Also, you guys have been pretty good about respecting each others opinions, so please continue to do so. There are some really good discussions in here, and most people here are of similar opinions, but ensure that if there are differing opinions, they are respected. Thank you. 1 Link to comment
MissAlmond December 24, 2014 Share December 24, 2014 Oh, Halcyon Days. If only you would trust us. We would have stayed on topic. One day. In the future. The far, far distant future. LOL. No problems with the warning; I knew it was coming. And I respect you all. That is, unless you're trolling this board, Mark Goffman. Then see my previous posts on how I feel about you. 4 Link to comment
savinggrace December 24, 2014 Share December 24, 2014 I won't broach the forbidden topic but do think a lot of the issues this season stem from a complete underestimation and disregard of the diversity of the show's audience. They thought, by default, the audience wanted to see one thing and were genuinely shocked when they found out, via social media, they were wrong. Season 2 may be unsalvageable. Season 3 will tell the story of whether they listened to the criticisms or arrogantly chose to disregard them. 2 Link to comment
jhlipton December 25, 2014 Share December 25, 2014 Did any of those shows have the producers and writers come out and say these characters wouldn't get love interests because strong womanhood! or lack of time!, while the other characters somehow found the time and the weakness for it? That was kind of my point -- all these "strong women" had time for relationships that didn't, in and of themselves, bog down the show. ("Anti-fans" of the various love-interests may disagree.) There was an essay linked on one of the threads on how a white female lead have a love interest is a well-worn path, but not so much for black females. I don't watch Scandal, but the on the one Shonda Rhimes show I do watch, one black woman (Michaela) has a fairly decent relationship and the other (Annalise) has two messed-up relationships. Outside of Shonda-Land, I don't know of any black female leads (or co-stars even) that have a romantic storyline. So giving Abbie a boyfriend could be done -- and it has been done on all the shows I've mentioned) -- they just don't want to.. As to the "racist": A person can do racist things without being what most people would think of as "racist". The small acts of racism (like changing "Black Lives Matter" to "All Lives Matter") are much harder to detect and correct than the overt ones. I makes me wonder if they regret outright canceling Almost Human? I know I do. It was just starting to come around. 3 Link to comment
DearEvette December 25, 2014 Share December 25, 2014 I won't broach the forbidden topic but do think a lot of the issues this season stem from a complete underestimation and disregard of the diversity of the show's audience. They thought, by default, the audience wanted to see one thing and were genuinely shocked when they found out, via social media, they were wrong. During SDCC this year, I would say about 50% of the people who got up to ask a question to the panel either praised them for their diversity of casting or asked a question that related to the diversity in the show. A fairly important academic study on the importance of diversity in media was also released and used Sleepy Hollow and its success s sort of a mascot for the study's conclusions. So if they did underestimate the importance of diversity then it needs to go under the heading of willful blindness along with their 'puzzled surprise' over people responding to the chemistry between Beharie and Mison and reading romantic subtext in it. Because I can't fathom any other reason why the reaction to the fans & critics to the sidelining of two popular POC characters would catch them so flat footed. 6 Link to comment
DeLurker December 27, 2014 Share December 27, 2014 Because I can't fathom any other reason why the reaction to the fans & critics to the sidelining of two popular POC characters would catch them so flat footed They initially said they cast color blind and given how well the cast worked together is Season 1, I had no reason to disbelieve this. I think the cast gelled exceptionally well from the start - much stronger than I can remember for most shows. Ignoring that the characters they sidelined in Season 2 were POC, the question in my mind is "Why would you sideline characters that worked and were well received and shift attention to a character who was not working or overuse of a character who was better in a lessor role?". It doesn't make sense in general. I keep reading articles that claim "sophmore slump", but that implies a slide not the cliff jump they've had. And despite a LOT of media, critical & fan feedback, they keep picking up speed on that descent. 4 Link to comment
savinggrace December 27, 2014 Share December 27, 2014 During SDCC this year, I would say about 50% of the people who got up to ask a question to the panel either praised them for their diversity of casting or asked a question that related to the diversity in the show. A fairly important academic study on the importance of diversity in media was also released and used Sleepy Hollow and its success s sort of a mascot for the study's conclusions. So if they did underestimate the importance of diversity then it needs to go under the heading of willful blindness along with their 'puzzled surprise' over people responding to the chemistry between Beharie and Mison and reading romantic subtext in it. Because I can't fathom any other reason why the reaction to the fans & critics to the sidelining of two popular POC characters would catch them so flat footed. In this case it seems like willful blindness is the winner. Perhaps they thought the peanut gallery couldn't be trusted with their assessments of the show and disregarded those opinions in favor of their own. After reading about how one writer wrote the Hawley kissing scene for Lyndie because he thought she looked hot at a meet-and-greet,it became clear there is no cohesive game plan for the plot of this show. The way the writer described it he was able to just pitch this scene and get it inserted into the story for really no other reason than "Lyndie gave me a boner." If that's how they're handling the plot-- writers tossing scenes in on a whim-- then I don't see how it's possible that they have a blueprint mapped out. They're just making shit up as they go and it shows. You can't do that with a sci-fi show and have it remain high quality. 7 Link to comment
shanndee December 27, 2014 Share December 27, 2014 Ugh. It just makes me so angry (and sad) to read all of this. A fun, creepy, entertaining, supernatural urban fantasy was willfully destroyed because TPTB didn't understand the concept of the show. They also thought that there was room in the time slot to introduce a soap opera...because that is the only thing that characters from a "period piece" time frame can possibly be used for. And we've all been missing soap operas so much. Rolls eyes. Don't even get me started on what they've done to the PoC in the cast. I loved this show so much in S1. I despise this wilful destruction of everything that was good about it. I am only going to watch the last 2 episodes of S2b. Then I am hoping that the showrunners and writers will be fired and replaced with people experienced in genre writing. These people would be smart enough to know that you don't sideline amazing chemistry between 2 likeable leads. Their chemistry alone would be enough to keep viewers coming back until they could get the writing back on track. I know this won't happen. So I'll enjoy my S1 discs and just pretend the show ended there. What a waste. 5 Link to comment
johntfs December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 Regarding the person of color thing, I have to wonder what the complaints here would be like if Katrina had been black and Abbie had been white. I suspect that there would be bitter rage against Abbie as a modern interloping hussy who was pushing between Ichabod and his one true person of color love, Katrina. Not everything in a show is black and white even when some of the characters are black and white. Link to comment
HalcyonDays December 29, 2014 Author Share December 29, 2014 Regarding the person of color thing, I have to wonder what the complaints here would be like if Katrina had been black and Abbie had been white. I suspect that there would be bitter rage against Abbie as a modern interloping hussy who was pushing between Ichabod and his one true person of color love, Katrina. Not everything in a show is black and white even when some of the characters are black and white. Hmm..possible, to be honest, and I totally get what you are saying, but I will disagree with you on this point for these two (of my) reasons: Reason #1: If CoC!Katrina (CoC = character of colour) was still as weepy, weak and utterly useless, who whenever she appeared on screen brought the show's pace and momentum to a screeching halt, and whenever she appeared managed to destroy the camraderie and bond between the leads, and spouted the most illogical argument of saving a murderous son, and acted completely selfish and self-serving, while acting completely shady, and having not a bit of empathy to others, I would feel the same way. Reason #2: Many people in this fandom tend to assume that those who support Abbie or like Abbie or want to see her more on screen are VoC (Viewers of Colour). There is also the notion that any viewer who likes Katrina, who does not see the injustice done to her character, who cannot see the chemistry between the leads is obviously a VoNC (Viewers of "non"- colour). This is furthest from the truth. I know many others, along with myself who are VoNC, who fell in love with the bond and connection between Abbie and Ichabod, love their individual characters, and understands the damage done to both Katrina, and to all of the characters as a whole this season. I've grown to dislike Katrina immensely because of her (in season 1) slamming the show's momentum to a halt, her shadiness, and being just overall annoying, to this season with the CFD and the mess of the writing. Also, I liked Abbie from the start, and admire her character, along with Jenny. It has nothing to do with skin colour (mine or the actor on screen), all to do with character herself. However, this is not a clear 50/50 split. I do believe there is a small subset of viewers who think like you posted. And I think some VoNC prefer Katrina because of skin colour. But by and large, that is not this fandom at all. Like you said, it's not black and white. It is about interesting lead characters who seem to work really well together and are supposed to be tasked with saving the world and are a delight to watch on screen. Unfortunately, the show has lost this message and their way. 7 Link to comment
TV Juriste December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 (edited) Regarding the person of color thing, I have to wonder what the complaints here would be like if Katrina had been black and Abbie had been white. I suspect that there would be bitter rage against Abbie as a modern interloping hussy who was pushing between Ichabod and his one true person of color love, Katrina. Not everything in a show is black and white even when some of the characters are black and white. I disagree. I think people are reacting to a few things #1 - the Katrina character is weak and boring. If a black actress played the character as currently written with similar mannerisms and vocal style, I don't think anyone would have a different reaction. She's just a really annoying character and the breathy thing is like nails on a chalkboard at this point. #2 - Katrina originally was a supporting character and the actress was not the lead. Part of the reaction to the current dynamic is that you have a supporting actress displacing the lead actress. Given the nature of Hollywood, I honestly cannot even imagine a situation where the lead female character, played by a white woman, has been given such a prominent role. That being said, I don't think FOC would expect, much less demand, a Black supporting actress to usurp the position of the White female lead. If you can think of an example of that dynamic occurring (Black supporting actress becoming more central to the storyline than the White female lead), please share. Sorry. Edited December 29, 2014 by TV Juriste 10 Link to comment
MissAlmond December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 I think the real anger comes from what a lot of viewers perceive as bait and switch. The show started one way only to become something else entirely. If with the very first episode roll, Katrina was listed first with Abbie second, viewers from the start would have understood who the lead actress was. If, when Goffman became showrunner, he had explicitly stated he was retooling the show and Katrina was now the lead, viewers could have made the choice if they wanted to continue watching his version of SH or not. Instead, Abbie is still listed as lead, Goffman talks Katrina storylines while at the same time the show teases Ichabbie moments. When viewers question things, Goffman uses his political skills and says they don’t know the whole story and need to trust him. Interviews with Behaire suddenly start popping up and the writers do last minute rewrites to mollify criticism. However, when things die down, it’s back to “Did I tell you the latest storyline about Katrina?” It’s Goffman’s constant spinning that’s making people angry. As I said, Goffman is not a stupid man. I’m sure he really knows what made the show tick, it’s just not his own vision. So either come straight out and state he was always about Katrina and that’s the direction the show will take forever more. Or shallow his pride, realize these characters have taken on a different life than Goffman envisioned and write what worked when the show first aired. But be honest with the viewers and let them make a real choice if this is a show they want to watch instead of playing games with this: “Katrina is Ichabod’s wife and you’re not true fans!” “Wait! Don’t go, here’s Abbie, just trust me!” nonsense. As someone noted, Goffman can’t have his cake and eat it to, although he’s trying his best to prove that old saying is wrong too. 6 Link to comment
MissAlmond December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 Oh, and SH was happy to sit back and take all the media accolades about Abbie being the lead and the diversity of the show. When Goffman took over, he should have straight up changed the credits and told critics “You do realize, to me, Katrina was always the lead, don’t you?” Instead, at the end of Season One, he took his “Thank you, thank you very much” Abbie as lead, diversity bows with pleasure. 2 Link to comment
DeLurker December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 Goffman uses his political skills and says they don’t know the whole story and need to trust him.Never trust a politician that says "trust me". 3 Link to comment
DearEvette December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 (edited) Regarding the person of color thing, I have to wonder what the complaints here would be like if Katrina had been black and Abbie had been white. I suspect that there would be bitter rage against Abbie as a modern interloping hussy who was pushing between Ichabod and his one true person of color love, Katrina. I don't think so. Genre fandom is rarely kind to WOC (especially black women) characters. A WOC character on a genre show has to meet certain standards to be really embraced. Off the top of my head I can only think of Zoe from Firefly who meets that criteria. - Tara on True Blood was roundly reviled as weak and useless. Her only crime? Being a great friend to Sookie, being a bit mouthy and being raped. She didn't start to get any support until she was turned into a vampire and became part of Eric's family. -Bonnie on Vampire Diaries was roundly reviled as weak and useless. Her only crime? Being a great friend to Elaina and disliking Damon. She didn't start to get any support until people turned on Elaina and finally recognized how badly Julie Plec has treated the character and a small but growing number of fans called them out on social media. - Martha Jones. Was roundly reviled as not being Rose. Her only crime? Not being Rose and being in love with the Dr. - Guinevere from Merlin was roundly reviled for being black. Her only crime? Being black and being woman. There were no black women in Medieval England! (there were). Guinevere being black was not canon (neither was Merlin being young and a servant). Her being black was not realistic! (and talking Dragons are?). And even worse than anything else, she interrupted the fantasy slash between Arthur and Merlin. If Abbie were portrayed by a white woman and had the same level of chemistry our Abbie has with Ichabod, whilst Katrina was played by a black woman and was the same wooden/whisper acting with a useless characterization...oh you best believe fandom would drag her ass! Of course, that is assuming Goffman would pull her front and center the way he is right now, which I don't believe would happen because most times WOC characters in genre are peripheral, underwritten and rarely given the opportunity to drive narrative the way Katrina has (see above list). I think it is due to the reactions to all those women above which is why Abbie is striking such a chord with the fandom. She is the rare black woman who has agency and is in the space traditionally saved for white women. Edited December 29, 2014 by DearEvette 9 Link to comment
fantique December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 (edited) Regarding the person of color thing, I have to wonder what the complaints here would be like if Katrina had been black and Abbie had been white. I suspect that there would be bitter rage against Abbie as a modern interloping hussy who was pushing between Ichabod and his one true person of color love, Katrina. Not everything in a show is black and white even when some of the characters are black and white. First of all, I have been pretty annoyingly vocal about the fact that I don't believe this is a case of racist agenda or intentional slighting of black charcaters/actors. From your previous posts that I read, I gather that you like Katrina. I understand that it must not be pleasant for everyone to be bashing her and wishing she dies and never appears on screen again. However that does not mean you can just ignore the concerns raised by other people and put words in their mouths. I find it offensive that you're saying people are wanting to see and/or ok with Abbie being a home-wrecker because she's black and the wife is white. Like someone has said, this isn't Scandal and we don't want adultery, thank god. The issues that people have raised are based on the fact that the plot that has been shown to be unsatisfactory. The original premise of the show was clearly heavily focused on Ichabod and Abbie as witnesses with occasional focus on the other main cast. It's absolutely reasonable for people to be confused when the focus of the story so heavily shifts to a secondary main character who on top of that is not as liked as the two central characters. The reason why people go to the race argument is because they don't see any dramatic or narrative argument that would show the advantage of the story having such a bigger Katrina focus. Add to that the fact that the other secondary characters that have virtually disappeared are Jenny and Irving while Henry and Hawley are more prominent, of course some people would feel nervous. Many don't feel that we have necessarily learnt much more about Ichabod or Katrina and feel that what we conceived for both characters last season seems to have been contradicted by what was shown this season and unfortunately it does not paint them in a positive light. Even Katrina has not been served better by this storyline other than we see more of her. I have a huge problem with what you posited because: 1- I have never ever seen even one Icahbbie shipper saying Ichabod should leave Katrina for Abbie. They are very clearly thinking long term, way after things would be over with the Cranes' marriage (because it is showing clear signs of strain that is based on two people just not being compatible). On top of that, I see a lot of people that don't want romantic Ichabbie *hand raise* who still think the Crane marriage is a train-wreck. Heck as soon as Caroline was on screen for more than a minute people were already thinking of shipping them before she died. That is a typically a big sign that viewers are looking for an alternative romantic pairing for a character when the one offered does not work for most people. Nobody is asking for him to cheat on his wife or anything like that. 2- Nothing Abbie is doing in the show is about getting between the Cranes as a couple. She doesn't seem to give two fucks about them being together or not as long as he keeps his eyes on the price... which is the fate of the whole fucking world. For Pete's sake, she pretty much acts as his freaking marriage counsellor. The show has not shown Abbie to have romantic feelings for him. He seems to be equated to Jenny level of importance in her mind. 3- If you're trying to say the issues presented have nothing to do with race then presenting an other potential situation where the races are switched as opposed to being the same negates said argument because in that case as well you are saying that race would matter, just to the detriment of another character. That makes the argument you are trying to make wholly invalid. PS: Also I am confused about what the show being black and white has to do with having black and white characters. Morality of the characters/fandom is not what's being discussed here. The race argument is not built around whoever Ichabod loves. In fact a lot of people who feel Abbie is slighted want to see her romantically involved with someone who is not Ichabod. Abbie fans want to see more inner life brought on screen for her when not on mission like we see what matters outside of the mission for...well everyone BUT her. PPS: I realised the tone may seem brusque and admonishing but my intention is just to apply logic to this argument here. I always try to see it from the other "side" of the argument because I don't want to dismiss others' opinions but there are too many logic hang ups and assumptions of other people's views for me to be able to see from your perspective. I just have to assume that you misinterpreted the complaints by those unsatisfied with the story development and if I have misinterpreted your argument, I am more than open to corrections. Edited December 29, 2014 by fantique 8 Link to comment
HalcyonDays December 29, 2014 Author Share December 29, 2014 Never trust a politician that says "trust me". Holy shit - this needs to be the mantra of most of the political masses (in the US)...and idiot showrunners... 1 Link to comment
CinnamonCW December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 Regarding the person of color thing, I have to wonder what the complaints here would be like if Katrina had been black and Abbie had been white. I suspect that there would be bitter rage against Abbie as a modern interloping hussy who was pushing between Ichabod and his one true person of color love, Katrina. Not everything in a show is black and white even when some of the characters are black and white. Assuming all else was the same except the character's colors? We wouldn't need to have this conversation. WoC-Katrina probably would have been killed off as planned. WoC-Katrina most likely wouldn't get away with being a poorly-handled character the way white Katrina does in the eyes of her loyal fans, and they certainly wouldn't be grumbling about how she's entitled to Leading Lady treatment because reasons. Most of all, Woc-Katrina definitely wouldn't be pushed to the forefront by the showrunner despite being a side-character fourth-billed in the credits. No, this doesn't mean Goffman card-carrying member of the KKK or is actively trying to be racist, but that's not the only way racism works. Just like a white writer may not actively hate white women but he still somehow never thinks to develope a white female character outside of her relationship to the male lead and always makes sure she looks unrealistically hot for any given situation. (With Abbie it's the intersecting of racism and sexism; I wasn't trying to imply WoC can't be written in a sexist way) In fact, people predicted this from the start because it's so common. Others have already given examples of how WoC are treated by genre fans, and I know comparisons to 'Twisted' have rightly been made throughout. As with others, I have no idea what you mean about trying to come between Ichabod and Katrina. That comment came out of nowhere. The bottom line, IMO, is that deep-seated racist beliefs/feelings are part of what is behind 'Sleepy Hollow' going sideways. I think the evidence speaks for itself. 7 Link to comment
johntfs December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 (edited) Have the showrunners changed between Season One and Season Two? If they have, there might be some validity to the "show sabotage" accusation. If not, racial fears on their part seem unlikely. These are the same people who hired Nicole Beharie and Orlando Jones to be in the main cast in the first place. They're also the same people who promoted Lyndie Greenwood into the main cast along with John Noble. As for Katia Winter, it's perfectly reasonable for her to take the tact that "Hi, I'm in the main cast of the show, I want to actually be on the show." The problem is that overall she hasn't been written or directed all that well. She's also been continually shunted away from the rest of the cast for most of her time on the show. For my part, I'm not all that fond of the character of Katrina as currently written and portrayed. However, I'm also aware that Katia Winter, as part of the original main cast, has signed the same 5-7 year contract as all the rest (including Orlando Jones) so I know that she's not going anywhere anytime soon. Because Katia Winter isn't going anywhere, criticisms along the lines of "She's awful! I hate her! Katrina must die, Die DIEEEEEEEEEEE!" are essentially useless. All those criticisms do is let the showrunners know that your ass is in the chair watching the show despite your dislike of the actress/character. The showrunners don't need your approval, just your attention. All the heated internet railing against Winter does is say "I'm still watching." That's why I tend to couch my criticisms in constructive tones rather than simply join the hue and cry to "burn the witch." Because I know that Katia Winter is staying, I try to suggest other things that can be done with her. Edited December 29, 2014 by johntfs Link to comment
catrox14 December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 (edited) Have the showrunners changed between Season One and Season Two? If they have, there might be some validity to the "show sabotage" accusation. The showrunners did change which is what the extensive discussion about Goffman and his fondness for Katrina and Katia Winter is all about. Edited December 29, 2014 by catrox14 5 Link to comment
savinggrace December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 (edited) Because Katia Winter isn't going anywhere, criticisms along the lines of "She's awful! I hate her! Katrina must die, Die DIEEEEEEEEEEE!" are essentially useless. All those criticisms do is let the showrunners know that your ass is in the chair watching the show despite your dislike of the actress/character. The showrunners don't need your approval, just your attention. All the heated internet railing against Winter does is say "I'm still watching." That's why I tend to couch my criticisms in constructive tones rather than simply join the hue and cry to "burn the witch." Because I know that Katia Winter is staying, I try to suggest other things that can be done with her. More than half the audience has vacated the show. To avoid cancellation I'd say they do need our approval and should listen very closely to the people who are still left and still care enough to weigh in on what's wrong. Constructive criticism hasn't made an iota of difference. Professional TV critics have trashed Katrina's character yet the showrunner continues to act oblivious and deflect the criticisms. It doesn't matter how many years is on an actor's contract. They can be killed off at any time. Edited December 29, 2014 by savinggrace 7 Link to comment
Carrie Ann December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 (edited) For my part, I'm not all that fond of the character of Katrina as currently written and portrayed. However, I'm also aware that Katia Winter, as part of the original main cast, has signed the same 5-7 year contract as all the rest (including Orlando Jones) so I know that she's not going anywhere anytime soon. Because Katia Winter isn't going anywhere, criticisms along the lines of "She's awful! I hate her! Katrina must die, Die DIEEEEEEEEEEE!" are essentially useless. All those criticisms do is let the showrunners know that your ass is in the chair watching the show despite your dislike of the actress/character. The showrunners don't need your approval, just your attention. All the heated internet railing against Winter does is say "I'm still watching." That's why I tend to couch my criticisms in constructive tones rather than simply join the hue and cry to "burn the witch." Because I know that Katia Winter is staying, I try to suggest other things that can be done with her. We don't know the details of KW's contract. Those details are guessed at, and assumed, but the general public does not know what they are. More importantly, Orlando Jones proves that TV contracts don't mean what you're claiming they do. Regular cast members are axed from TV shows all the time. Sometimes, the contracts themselves allow for outs like this, other times, the studio has to buy them out somehow. OJ has indicated that he doesn't believe he has a future on SH as a regular, so what you're implying here--that Irving isn't really dead, and that OJ will be back as a regular on the series soon enough--does not seem to be true. So the viewers here and elsewhere crying out to get rid of Katrina are doing so because it is well within Mark Goffman's purview to write her off the show. He just did it with another regular cast member, but he made a decision to kill off a popular character; to get rid of a popular actor. It's crazy-making. Edited December 29, 2014 by Carrie Ann 3 Link to comment
johntfs December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 Orlando Jones' situation doesn't prove anything. In this show of any show, dead does not necessarily mean gone. Meanwhile, Orlando Jones (and let's spell his name out so as not to refer to him by the same moniker as Mr. Simpson, unless Orlando Jones has also brutally murdered two people and gotten away with it) will indicate whatever the showrunners want him to indicate. In any case while their roles may shift, I don't believe that either Katia Winter or Orlando Jones will be leaving the show anytime soon. Link to comment
fantique December 29, 2014 Share December 29, 2014 (edited) 1)As for Katia Winter, it's perfectly reasonable for her to take the tact that "Hi, I'm in the main cast of the show, I want to actually be on the show." The problem is that overall she hasn't been written or directed all that well. She's also been continually shunted away from the rest of the cast for most of her time on the show. For my part, I'm not all that fond of the character of Katrina as currently written and portrayed. However, I'm also aware that Katia Winter, as part of the original main cast, has signed the same 5-7 year contract as all the rest (including Orlando Jones) so I know that she's not going anywhere anytime soon. 2)Because Katia Winter isn't going anywhere, criticisms along the lines of "She's awful! I hate her! Katrina must die, Die DIEEEEEEEEEEE!" are essentially useless. All those criticisms do is let the showrunners know that your ass is in the chair watching the show despite your dislike of the actress/character. The showrunners don't need your approval, just your attention. All the heated internet railing against Winter does is say "I'm still watching." Ok, starting off on a good note. -I agree with you that it's completely legitimate for KW to want to do more than a breathy exposition scene. The poor girl needed to do more than that. -I agree that the character has been written horrendously, and I think I speak for a lot of people on this forum when I say it's a genuine complaint and that's why the character has issues. We still don't really who she is, just what she does. Her characterisation is giving me whiplash. -I am 1000% with you on the fact that harassing the writers on Twitter or accusing them of discrimination is THE surest way for them to ignore the valid criticism that comes from fan feedback. Here come my BUTs (not personally attacking you just expanding on what I think you are pointing to): 1) While I think they needed to integrate Katrina in the plot, they failed. Also, giving her something to do VS having every plot point and big twist somehow linked back to her are two vey different things. The writers, who wanted to give her more opportunities to be active, decided to keep her holed up in that stupid house for forever. Most of the plot impetus in each episode did not really hinge on her presence there. They should have had her leave after 'The Kindred'. Everything that happened up until Deliverance did necessitate her in that house. All of Henry's plans did not need to have her present in the house. All it did was give us whiny Headless. As for KW, I don't have a huge problem with her but unfortunately, she did not make lemonade out of those lemons. She does not actively bug me but I wished she had sold those Jeremy moments more. I did not feel the mother-son "bond", I did not feel the desperation of a mother watching her child lost and self-destructive, but I have gone in lengths about this already. Those shortcomings are completely on the writers though, which is what everyone is complaining about so I don't really understand where you're going with this...? 2) Here are the arguments in my reasoning as to why there is a strong case for fan interventions in this show and why they should voice their complaints: Anyone who appreciates KW would want her to have opportunities to effectively tell the story of her character. Anyone who loves this show enough to feel the need to ask the writers to course-correct when they think they are not using the tools they have effectively would want the Katrina character to be used efficiently as well and hope that she can enrich the fabric of this story. When they have her character say things that amount to "We should deal with Henry like I say just 'cause..." or "All those things I did in the war mean nothing and are not about who I am", it effectively erases every info they give us about her because she is being telegraphed to the audience as being of value because she is those things. They need to be made aware of that. If I believed in the competence of the leadership in the writers' room, I would think that this is meant to be telling us as the viewers that her psyche is suffering from being in Purgatory and that her role as a wife and mother began to supersede that of an assert in the war because that's what she held on to for 200 years. It seemed though that they just wrote lines that fit in that moment and didn't really think about the repercussions of her denial. The fact that a team that supposedly wanted to give her an opportunity to shine took 13/14 episodes to think about exploring the trauma of being in limbo for 200 years shows how clueless the writing team is. They didn't realise that they were showing her to be weak and useless as a witch, therefore the viewers have to make assumptions in their heads as to why she seems to fail at the one thing that makes her "special". There is no canon to back it up, if a show-runner has to give us all that extraneous info for us to make sense of a character, they have failed in their writing. The purgatory excuse while valid is only mentioned in interviews not in script since the season 1 finale. More importantly instead of stating that she has been weakened by her captivity, they have in script endorsements of how "powerful" she is by other characters which is negated by the story they are showing. My point with all this is, those writers were not even aware that they were not writing the character judiciously, it had to be pointed out to them. The fact that both professional critics and fans were on the exact same wavelengths shows that it's glaringly obvious to everyone where their writing problems lie. So while I think fans should learn self-censorship because it never bears fruit to publicly accuse someone of bigotry, the criticism the fans were pointing to is too valid to be ignored. They should not have to pretend that the show is perfect just because someone has a contract. If anything, all that vehemence against the character should be an indicator to the writers that they did something not quite right. Example: apparently, without people dissatisfaction with the minimal amount of narrative focus on Abbie and her backstory, Goffman would have thought that only one episode in the whole season that addressed Abbie's intense and complex family history was enough. Later, and I am praying that this is an exaggeration, I even heard that 'Mama' was only planned after people from the network pointed out that there wasn't much backstory of Abbie's explored. Those are signs that the writers that don't know what's enjoyable in this show and the things that the viewers not only want to but need to see to add layers and depth to the characters, and I mean all of the characters. The thing that (I believe) irritates some viewers is that at least with Katrina they tried. It feels like the writers created every opportunity to make Katrina compelling, meanwhile with the other characters they just floundered and ignored the strong base that was established for their characterisation in season 1. Ichabod went from a man with strong principles who realised the shortcomings of colonisation to a dude just following his best friend and they payed too little attention to Abbie to ruin her but the mission oriented Abbie who finally accepted and realised her role as a Witness would have gone solo, if needed, to try and destroy Henry. Also while I completely abhor the idea of people attacking KW personally (they should just not follow her and pretend she doesn't exist if their dislike of the character is being transferred to her or if they find her acting to leave much to be desired IMO), I have not heard about anything involving her and the fans since her Twitter blunder where she said something that was perceived as baiting and used #Ichabbie to bring attentions to it which annoyed those fans. Everything on the internet I have read is about the character and the writing for her more than anything...At least on the websites of actual magazines and professional critics, it definitely is. ETA: Wrt contracts talk, Colin Donnell on Arrow got killed in the first season even though he was originally in a 3-year contract like all the other regulars... Nothing is set in stone. Things happen. Edited December 29, 2014 by fantique 6 Link to comment
ChelseaNH December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 The showrunners did change Did they? This article from November 2013 describes Goffman as a showrunner. Also this article from October 2013 lists him as one of the showrunners. It's not that Goffman is new to the scene; the major difference is that Orci, Wiseman and Kurtzmann have other projects. But as far as I can tell, that's always been the case. They come up with the concepts, but the long-term day-to-day work is handled by someone else. Link to comment
cynic December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 (edited) Goffman came on to Sleepy Hollow at some point after the pilot was already completed per his interview with SSinsider. I don't know when he became the showrunner, but I would wager that his influence vastly increased (either through promotion or through Orci, Wiseman, and Kurtzman become less involved) sometime around the reveal of Katrina's pregnancy. I might be off base about that, but that's when I, at least, noticed a distinct change in the show. Anyway, its completely apparent and also true that the people responsible for the awesomeness of the pilot have left the building. http://www.ssninsider.com/showrunner-spotlight-mark-goffman-sleepy-hollow/ Edited December 30, 2014 by cynic 4 Link to comment
DeLurker December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 Because Katia Winter isn't going anywhere, criticisms along the lines of "She's awful! I hate her! Katrina must die, Die DIEEEEEEEEEEE!" are essentially useless. As noted by fantique, the problem with Katrina stems from the writing and, on this forum, I think people have acknowledged that. Meryl Streep could not play Katrina as written and salvage the character. I think most of us are unfamiliar with KW's work outside of Sleepy Hollow and so have limited exposure on which to gauge what skills KW brings to the table. Truth be told, I was completely unfamiliar with Nicole Beharie and Tom Mison prior to this show. I've had some, albeit limited exposure to John Noble, and slightly more with Clancy Brown, Orlando Jones and John Cho (cause I've seen some of the silliness that is Harold and Kumar). And while criticism, however valid or invalid, may not alter the course of the show and therefore be "useless" in that regard, it is not useless to express an opinion or frustration in general. If I am not mistaken, that is the point of forums like Ptv. Being able to come to the boards and read a cross section of views is personally helpful to me. Others have often picked up on nuances that got buried in my own viewing, reading someone else's well articulated post that provides a different, yet equally valid, interpretation of a scene gives me a starting point for re-evaluating my initial position and sometimes, it is just darn good snark. 7 Link to comment
CinnamonCW December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 johntfs Have the showrunners changed between Season One and Season Two? If they have, there might be some validity to the "show sabotage" accusation. If not, racial fears on their part seem unlikely. These are the same people who hired Nicole Beharie and Orlando Jones to be in the main cast in the first place. They're also the same people who promoted Lyndie Greenwood into the main cast along with John Noble. Goffman was part of the team soon after the launch in Season One, but he wasn’t at the helm like he is now that Len Wiseman, Roberto Orci, and Kurtzman are focused on their other projects. The team of writers is different this season. As for Katia Winter, it's perfectly reasonable for her to take the tact that "Hi, I'm in the main cast of the show, I want to actually be on the show." The problem is that overall she hasn't been written or directed all that well. She's also been continually shunted away from the rest of the cast for most of her time on the show. For my part, I'm not all that fond of the character of Katrina as currently written and portrayed. Well she was on the show, just not a lead... We’re not privy to details but its IMO safe to assume she knew she'd signed on as fourth billed in the credits portraying a supporting character. Neil Jackson’s comments about her being “bored” or whatever suggests she might have complained to TPTB but we don't know for certain (though she obviously told someone). IMO some of her off-putting comments last Spring/Summer/Fall suggests she felt pretty damn comfortable though. If what we’re seeing is in any significant part due to Katia complaining to Goffman and co. about the role she signed on to take, well, no one said it meant the audience would be happy about it... However, I'm also aware that Katia Winter, as part of the original main cast, has signed the same 5-7 year contract as all the rest (including Orlando Jones) so I know that she's not going anywhere anytime soon. Signing a long term contract doesn’t mean she can’t be killed off or her role reduced. This happens all the time. Let’s not forget Katrina was originally supposed to die – twice. Also, look at Orlando: even if he remains on the show in some capacity, obviously signing a contract didn't mean he wasn't going anywhere. Because Katia Winter isn't going anywhere, criticisms along the lines of "She's awful! I hate her! Katrina must die, Die DIEEEEEEEEEEE!" are essentially useless. All those criticisms do is let the showrunners know that your ass is in the chair watching the show despite your dislike of the actress/character. The showrunners don't need your approval, just your attention. All the heated internet railing against Winter does is say "I'm still watching." Except the audience has been reduced by at least half. What began as grumblings but were ignored eventually boiled over around ‘Deliverance’ and prompted a hash-tag on Twitter (which according to sources is the only reason Abbie will have an arc at the end of the season, and it also prompted rewrites and reshoots).M. Raven Metzner responded by passive-aggressively retweeting a message calling us “haters” and also threw shade about “real fans.” (Don’t get me started on that one…) By this time fans and critics alike had put forth illustrated disser-fukcing-tations on the Katrina problem. Goffman’s public response as others noted was to deflect, throw bones, or double-down. Back to Katia, I haven’t seen her “attacked” on Twitter any more or less than Nicole Beharie has been. 5 Link to comment
DearEvette December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 By this time fans and critics alike had put forth illustrated disser-fukcing-tations on the Katrina problem. Goffman’s public response as others noted was to deflect, throw bones, or double-down. LOL So true. In fact, people had begun writing dissertations on the Katrina problem by the middle of last season. Her problematic position made itself apparent even before S1 ended. And even then, fans weren't calling for her to die, but what I saw by and large were suggestions about what could be done to make her more viable. In my mind Katrina is like a bad debt. In the past you've tried to work with the people to get it in good standing. You give them time to make good on their promise. You make payment plans, figuring a little here and a little there will make it all right. You reduce the interest rate. You make all sorts of concessions because you just want some pay off. But they keep reneging. They dodge your calls. They make excuses. They tell you the check is in the mail. But after months and months of nothing, you realize you can't rely on anything happening. They've lost all credit with you. You have become disgusted with the time and effort you've granted them. So out of frustration you just want to throw you hands up and write it off. 6 Link to comment
phoenics December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 Did they? This article from November 2013 describes Goffman as a showrunner. Also this article from October 2013 lists him as one of the showrunners. It's not that Goffman is new to the scene; the major difference is that Orci, Wiseman and Kurtzmann have other projects. But as far as I can tell, that's always been the case. They come up with the concepts, but the long-term day-to-day work is handled by someone else. You do realize that Sleepy Hollow had filmed a LOT of episodes before the pilot aired, right? Filming for the second half of S2 (that most of SH fandom decries as the bad turning point of the show - when the Katrina focus started up with the Abraham and Jeremy plots)? This is why Nicole Beharie was so stunned when she went to a comic event without TM and the fans were absolutely overjoyed to see her. Prior to the pilot actually airing (and by that point the show had been handed over to Goffman even though he was NOT the show runner in the first half of Season 1) the actors and writers had no clue how the show would be perceived. That also explains the panicked and knee jerk reaction to NOT killing off Katrina in the pilot as planned. Goffman changed that. 3 Link to comment
phoenics December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 Regarding the person of color thing, I have to wonder what the complaints here would be like if Katrina had been black and Abbie had been white. I suspect that there would be bitter rage against Abbie as a modern interloping hussy who was pushing between Ichabod and his one true person of color love, Katrina. Not everything in a show is black and white even when some of the characters are black and white. Hmmmm... to flip that question around, would you (and other Katrina fans) be pushing so hard for more Katrina exposure and screen time if Katrina was portrayed by a PoC? That is the same question you asked us - just flipped around, so I assume that's fair. For the record, I don't know any Ichabbie fans who want Ichabod to leave his wife. The ones that are left would rather she be killed off - like the pilot episode script originally had her. 4 Link to comment
kieyra December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 (edited) I didn't know Katrina was supposed to be killed off in the pilot, but that makes sense. I'm not sophisticated enough to intrinsically understand the racial/genre stuff (although I appreciate you guys explaining what's really going on with it), but my story-loving soul always knew Katrina didn't fit. This is such an odd situation. I've certainly been involved in other fandoms, particularly genre fandoms, where a male producer appeared to be shoving a poorly written female character down our throats (*coughLaurelLancecough*), but I don't think I've ever seen a show so spectacularly squander their potential and cast chemistry. Take what's working, kill it, double down on the thing everyone hates? So very odd. And I've always had a limited amount of John Noble I can take (sorry fans), but after seeing a few episodes he's done on the Good Wife, I can say SH isn't doing that guy any favors either. TGW knew precisely how to play him. Edited December 30, 2014 by kieyra 4 Link to comment
Pete Martell December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 (edited) Regarding the person of color thing, I have to wonder what the complaints here would be like if Katrina had been black and Abbie had been white. I suspect that there would be bitter rage against Abbie as a modern interloping hussy who was pushing between Ichabod and his one true person of color love, Katrina. Not everything in a show is black and white even when some of the characters are black and white. If the tables were turned, I can't imagine Katrina ever having her role expanded. I also can't see Abbie and Ichabod not being written as OTP with two white actors in the roles. I think there's often a different standard for black actresses who are added to shows, in terms of their role or place. For instance, Michonne is popular with TWD fans, but flirtation between Michonne and the show's most popular male character (Daryl Dixon) led to racist fan comments. Game of Thrones has a zillion, trillion characters, some of whom are completely pointless and have bizarre, invented storylines like how they please all the ladies in the brothel (offcamera) with their big penis, but when the show's one black female character has a little bit of storyline in a single episode (a burgeoning romance with a black male character), it's called filler, the worst story ever, etc. etc. I think the show's main problem is that they had a system set up on two levels - one level was the strong bond (friendship or more) between Ichabod and Abbie. The other level was a diverse canvas. Not diverse in a forced, Bochco-esque way where black characters have to repeatedly be defined by racism and "can't we all just get along," but diverse in an everyday, natural way. A spin on the same tales given to white faces over and over, now just naturally given to POC. The show broke up both levels of this system. As others have said, I think they assumed viewers loved wacky, sexy Ichabod who can have a haha with a stapler and doesn't know what Siri means, but can still save the day. I think they decided they could just do whatever they wanted with the rest of the show as long as Ichabod was front and center. They may have even thought if we got to know his wife, his son, his old frenemy, his third cousin twice removed, et al, with safe, familiar white faces (and having a new white male character like Hawley come in as a rival to Crane, even if he didn't have ties to Ichabod, was also in a comfort zone), we'd care even more, because he wasn't a fish out of water in a way that made a statement without ever making one. Instead, he's now in his comfort zone. It's Abbie, and many viewers, who are on the backfoot, and reminded of their place. As someone who doesn't see any particular appeal in Ichabod, or Tom Mison, this was an automatic fail for me. But the fact that many, many fans who loved the character are also alienated should alarm the show far more than it seemingly does. Edited December 30, 2014 by Pete Martell 7 Link to comment
CinnamonCW December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 You do realize that Sleepy Hollow had filmed a LOT of episodes before the pilot aired, right? Filming for the second half of S2 (that most of SH fandom decries as the bad turning point of the show - when the Katrina focus started up with the Abraham and Jeremy plots)? This is why Nicole Beharie was so stunned when she went to a comic event without TM and the fans were absolutely overjoyed to see her. Prior to the pilot actually airing (and by that point the show had been handed over to Goffman even though he was NOT the show runner in the first half of Season 1) the actors and writers had no clue how the show would be perceived. That also explains the panicked and knee jerk reaction to NOT killing off Katrina in the pilot as planned. Goffman changed that. Wow. That all makes a terible sense. People did notice the change midway Season One. The naive among us assumed they'd continue to build on the foundation already created, not drag the show down the bottomless pit of Crane Family Drama they introduced. 5 Link to comment
ChelseaNH December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 You do realize that Sleepy Hollow had filmed a LOT of episodes before the pilot aired, right? ... That also explains the panicked and knee jerk reaction to NOT killing off Katrina in the pilot as planned. Trying to figure out the timeline here. Everything good (first half of the season) was filmed before Goffman arrived to ruin things, but Goffman was the one who made them not kill off Katrina in the pilot as planned -- which was a decision made in the first half of the season before Goffman arrived to ruin things? Link to comment
Indi December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 So Katia Winter isn't going anywhere? Well, that's a shame, but that doesn't mean I'm going to stop wishing her gone, because the writing isn't the only or even the biggest problem with StruggleWitch. The character I know for sure isn't going away, unfortunately for me, is Ichy, but, unlike StruggleWitch, the acting isn't the problem here (for the most part). The actor doesn't need to go away, but the writers need to do so much better. His family drama isn't giving him any layers or depth. He's not "flawed", he's just lacking in personality and integrity. They need to step away from whom they think is their golden cow. He's not golden and what's coming out of him so far is stinking manure. But what about Abbie? I love her and, at this point, I'm just watching just for Nicole/Abbie, but unfortunately they are writing her out of character to prop up the Cranes. Her humanity, the core of her character disappears, whenever it comes to that stupid family. She should have called out her useless partner a long time ago, but she keeps praising, encouraging and propping him up. She lets him order her around, becomes Can'trina's bodyguard and occasional servant, while they keep demeaning her as a Witness and as a human (remember the voting scene). This tells me a lot about the Cranes and how repulsive they are, but it also tells me a lot about the writers and what they think it's Abbie's real place. 1 Link to comment
cynic December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 (edited) If the tables were turned, I can't imagine Katrina ever having her role expanded. I also can't see Abbie and Ichabod not being written as OTP with two white actors in the roles. ......Yeah, I think the whole "well, what if the roles were reversed" argument is problematic, because it ignores the fact that the scenario of a white lead actress being sidelined by a black love interest has literally never happened on American network television ever. However, black actresses (not necessarily leads, since that's an incredibly small subset and not necessarily lead love interests, because that's an even smaller subset) get sidelined all the time in favor of white actresses and white love stories that already are all over the airwaves. So, even if the situation was reversed, it wouldn't be the same. Context matters. Also, I agree with Pete Martell that if Abbie was played by a white actress, Ichabbie would be clearly written as OTP endgame like 90% of male/female two-hander shows (i.e. Bones, Castle, Moonlighting etc). On the other hand, if Katrina was black, she either would have died in the pilot or she would have quickly been revealed as evil and their marriage a sham, much like Karl Urban's POC wife on Almost Human. His character was married, but we wouldn't want anything to get in the way of his real OTP with white Minka Kelly now would we? (His black partner was literally sexless, since he was a robot. No ship for him!) Now, that the Flash has the first rootable OTP to feature a black actress (don't get me started on Scandal), it'll be interesting to watch how the fandom reacts to it as the relationship progresses. Iris' relationship with Barry is canon, but there was a lot of talk of shipping him with a white secondary character instead from day one. It seems like Iris has won quite a few people over now, but only time will tell. If she ends up somehow getting sidelined...ugh. Btw, I actually don't ship Ichabbie. I love their chemistry and was all set to ship them early in season one, but ehhh. I'm not sure what happened there. It's not that I'm against them ending up together Mulder/Scully style, but something is preventing me from full on shipping them. I only really realized it when I found myself rooting for Caroline when she churned butter for Crane. I also was kinda on board with Hawley getting with Abbie before the Jenny thing was revealed. Edited December 30, 2014 by cynic 6 Link to comment
johntfs December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 (edited) Hmmmm... to flip that question around, would you (and other Katrina fans) be pushing so hard for more Katrina exposure and screen time if Katrina was portrayed by a PoC? That is the same question you asked us - just flipped around, so I assume that's fair. For the record, I don't know any Ichabbie fans who want Ichabod to leave his wife. The ones that are left would rather she be killed off - like the pilot episode script originally had her. Hell yes. White people are boring as fuck. I know, because I am one. I'd love for Katrina to have been a freed or escaped slave who married and saved Ichabod through magic, preferably Vodoun. A black Katrina Crane calling down the loa and fucking Moloch's creatures up would have been a glorious thing to behold and now I'm kind of pissed that it didn't happen. If I had a time machine and rewrite authority, I'd put Lyndie Greenwood in as Katrina and Katia Winter as Abbie's crazy foster sister. Maybe bring in Tony Todd as Henry Parish instead of John Noble. Edited December 30, 2014 by johntfs 3 Link to comment
fantique December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 (edited) By this time fans and critics alike had put forth illustrated disser-fukcing-tations on the Katrina problem. I don't know why I love this so much but I shall forever endeavour to write disser-fukcing-tations in my academic career I'm not sophisticated enough to intrinsically understand the racial/genre stuff (although I appreciate you guys explaining what's really going on with it), but my story-loving soul always knew Katrina didn't fit. This is such an odd situation. I've certainly been involved in other fandoms, particularly genre fandoms, where a male producer appeared to be shoving a poorly written female character down our throats (*coughLaurelLancecough*), but I don't think I've ever seen a show so spectacularly squander their potential and cast chemistry. Take what's working, kill it, double down on the thing everyone hates? So very odd. Aww, my story loving soul is confused too!!!! It is just going against the grain here. Trying to figure out the timeline here. Hmmm... I don't know if that helps but that's how I have it mapped out in my head. I got it all from the wikipedia article about who wrote what episode etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sleepy_Hollow_episodes#Season_1:_2013.E2.80.9314 Goffman was added to the show after the pilot was in the can and picked up by the network. After he joined in episode 2, I got the sense he had the training wheels on because Kurtzman & Orci knew they wouldn't be as hands on after season 1. All his scripts were co-written in the first season and he sometimes did only the teleplay or the story. I think people link the more independence/influence he has to more Katrina heavy focus. To me, it made sense that the show was just shifting from Abbie's backstory to Ichabod's in order bring balance to the arc of season 1. My thinking is that Season 2 is Goffman's brain child, which is where my problems with the story began, and I keep seeing references to K&O being in not so great terms with FOX so I can only assume they have very little to do with the direction of the show as it stands. Basically season 1, they all made contributions with the executive power probably with K&O while now it's all Goffman. His vision is a problem because the main two are slighted since he has all the lynchpins of the big arc rooted in Katrina's actions. That's what some feel can be traced back all the way to the second half of season 1 where the Jenry storyline began to take root. Now, I see this all as speculation. I personally didn't find it a surprising narrative to follow and was expecting the reveal of a child at one point or another so I don't think that was the ground work for some Katrina takeover but I do think that was Goffman's launchpad to pin basically the whole arc on Katrina. I got confused because, other than a way to make Katrina's story and characterisation central to the A-plot, there is little rhyme or reason to the direction the arc for this season has gone in. My feelings on it are that he just really doesn't know how to write for a genre show. Even when trying to put Katrina at the forefront he makes her weak, weepy and untrustworthy. But at least if he was more interested in telling the witnesses' story and not just Katrina's, some narrative choices could have been avoided. I also don't think he knows how to write a proper teleplay, the pacing on all his episodes was horrendous and I kept getting taken out of the scenes. Very clunky. Intent is a powerful thing, both in writing and in creative endeavours. No matter how much he tries to dress it up, the viewers can feel what story he really wants to tell. It just seems strange to have most of the ramifications in this epic story based in the actions of the wife of one of the witnesses when the show is advertised as being about the 2 witnesses fighting the apocalypse, picking up members in their ragtag group along the way. The problem is that the whole Jenry story feels like it's more about Katrina and Henry than it is about Ichabod. It shouldn't but it does. If Sleepy Hollow had been about Katrina from the beginning, I wouldn't say Goffman ruined things. My problem is that he changed a show that brought so much joy and levity and fun and made it soap drama hour with the lamest "twists" ever while the person central to it all inspires very little pity and empathy. Edited December 30, 2014 by fantique 3 Link to comment
jhlipton December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 As noted by fantique, the problem with Katrina stems from the writing and, on this forum, I think people have acknowledged that. Meryl Streep could not play Katrina as written and salvage the character. I think most of us are unfamiliar with KW's work outside of Sleepy Hollow and so have limited exposure on which to gauge what skills KW brings to the table. Banshee Crossing, Ms Winter's previous major role, is available for streaming on Netflix. I skimmed it, to see what her range was, and I was not impressed. There are any number of actresses of her age and looks available, so I don't know how such a mediocre actress came to be cast. Link to comment
OakGoblinFly December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 (edited) Banshee Crossing, Ms Winter's previous major role, is available for streaming on Netflix. I skimmed it, to see what her range was, and I was not impressed. There are any number of actresses of her age and looks available, so I don't know how such a mediocre actress came to be cast. To be fair, I don't think that the majority of actors cast on this show (including Nichole Beharie whom I have seen in numerous films) have an incredible range - they are just very, very good at playing to a specific range/category. I've never been bothered by Katia Winter's acting - it's the inconsistent writing of the character that makes me dislike Katrina; I liked her when she was playing spy/secret witch - obviously keeping secrets from Ichabod - and wondering what her true motives were that made me actually enjoy Katrina the first season. Now she's a plot device who can use her powers only when it suits the writers or needs rescuing and that's a waste of potential. It's the inconsistent writing (poorly developed Katrina, jerky Ichabod, sidelined Frank) and dropped plot points (Where is the rest of Katrina's coven? What happened to the Kindred? What about those other spooky events Corbin was investigating?) and fly-by-the-seat of the pants mythology that really bothers me and has sapped the fun factor from the show. Edited December 30, 2014 by OakGoblinFly 1 Link to comment
kieyra December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 Hell yes. White people are boring as fuck. I know, because I am one. I'd love for Katrina to have been a freed or escaped slave who married and saved Ichabod through magic, preferably Vodoun. A black Katrina Crane calling down the loa and fucking Moloch's creatures up would have been a glorious thing to behold and now I'm kind of pissed that it didn't happen. If I had a time machine and rewrite authority, I'd put Lyndie Greenwood in as Katrina and Katia Winter as Abbie's crazy foster sister. Maybe bring in Tony Todd as Henry Parish instead of John Noble. I kind of hate you for making me want to write this fic. 3 Link to comment
CinnamonCW December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 ... Trying to figure out the timeline here. Everything good (first half of the season) was filmed before Goffman arrived to ruin things, but Goffman was the one who made them not kill off Katrina in the pilot as planned -- which was a decision made in the first half of the season before Goffman arrived to ruin things? Well apparently in the original script Katrina was dead. As in, we realize she's just a ghost. That's probably why they made a show about Ichabod discovering her grave and that she was burnt at the stake. I think the speculation is that once Goffman became involved it was retconned so that she wasn't technically dead but trapped in Purgatory. Link to comment
johntfs December 30, 2014 Share December 30, 2014 I kind of hate you for making me want to write this fic. I kind of hate myself for bringing it up. I'm seeing all kind of cool story space open up. The one writer is right: Lyndie Greenwood is hot. As Ichabod's Vodoun priestess wife she'd be center of the sun hot. Plus the relationship between Katrina and Abbie would have been amazing instead of this pseudo love triangle thing. Katia Winter as Abbie's Jane Austen meets Lara Croft foster sister would've been cool as hell too. 1 Link to comment
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