The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[HalcyonDays]

Seeing as how a lot of the other Sleepy Hollow threads end up drifting into complaining about what's wrong with the show as it currently stands, I figure having a thread dedicated to discussing what possibly went wrong overall with the show might be "therapeutic" for us.

 

Please ensure opinions and discussions remain polite and respectful. Also be mindful of the inappropriate use of racist or sexist or otherwise demeaning language in this thread. This thread is for us to vent, complain and seek therapeutic consolation, but in a respectful and intelligent manner. Thank you.

[blixie]

It was hard to pick just one thing since I believe Jenny/Frank were sidelined to make room for CFD, but hypothetically speaking that didn't have to happen, CFD would be way less aggravating if I had Frank/Jenny (or even Frank/Jenny/Hawley that is the triangle that shoulda been) badassing around together to entertain me since Katrina is ruining the part of the show I signed up for: Ichabbie.

Edited December 3, 2014 by stacey
Inappropriate Nickname

[BestestAuntEver]

It was hard for me to pick as well. The first 4 are all issues in my mind. Those 4 things changed the dynamic of the show into something I never would have watched past the first episode. That's if I had tuned in at all.

[phoenics]

Katrina.

[HalcyonDays]

Katrina.

 

LOL! At least you are succinct!!

[phoenics]

LOL - I know it's much more than that, but for me you can tie about 80% of S2's issues and problems back to her... either in 1) giving her an expanded story (which sucks time from Jenny/Irving, 2) trying to make her equal in importance to Abbie, which is just wrong, 3) giving her more stakes with Henry (the foolish redemption storyline), 4) the "make her sexy" costume garbage (No, just no)... 5) turning the BAMF Headless Horseman into a simp ... 6) giving her idiotic and misogynistic story lines to expand the role which kills the show pace, as well as trying to copy Ichabbie moments (WTF?) ... 7) not killing her off in the first place and leaving the shady stuff unresolved, but continuing to try to convince the fans that she's both "good" and that Ichatrina is "epic love" ... 8) dumbing Crane down and making him an asshole so that she can have the foolish redemption storyline... and also 9) disrupting the chemistry between the two leads and the rest of the cast...

I know some could argue that the Henry stuff has to do with John Noble, but I honestly think the issue started BEFORE him - I think he was brought onboard as the Crane son in an attempt to expand the entire Crane Family - but the source of the desire to expand the family was for Katia Winter's benefit (Goffman) ... and the show's detriment.

I hate this show, lol. I really should just quit.

Edited November 24, 2014 by phoenics

[catrox14]

Katrina is the main issue because it is an impediment to the relationship between Ichabod and Abbie and I don't mean in a shippy way necessarily.  They have to shoehorn her in to make her relevant.  Now maybe they always intended her role to be as it is, but the mistake was in not making her more important last season so that the Ichabbie (in what ever way) did not gain as much traction.

 

What made last season work was Ichabbie, Irving, Andy, Jenny, Sheriff Corbin and Headless. There was a great humor to every batshit crazy mythology and Ichabod run in with the modern world that fucking WORKED because they recognized the absurdity and ran with it. 

 

Now they tried to make it SRS BZNESS with Crane Family Drama  and that is NOT the show I signed up for which is why I don't even watch it live now :(.

[shanndee]

I think you nailed it catrox14. 

 

The only other thing I could add is that S1 sold me a fun, cool, Apocalypse story. It also had moments that were incredibly creepy ( Moloch in the mirror in the jail and poor Andy running into that mirror and breaking his neck...creeped me out ). Also, Headless was an unstoppable killing machine. He was scary. He was also very cool. The first time we saw him wielding machine guns rocked! Now he's a boring love sick puppy dog only only suited to a soap opera. Lame.

 

And it can't be stressed enough that the chemistry between Abbie and Crane was off the charts. They were endearing, charming, and funny. They were also committed to stopping the Apocalypse. Now Crane's only concern is his wife and son...who is the freaking Horseman of War! Come on!

 

I also no longer watch the show live. If I don't hear about a shift back to all of these elements before season 3 airs I am out. :-(

Edited November 24, 2014 by shanndee

[DeLurker]

As someone so eloquently put it on an episode thread - Villain Decay.

And having their EPIC love story take precedence over an apocalypse story cause if the end of days is nigh, it really matters that the Cranes go out as a nuclear family.

[RiddleyWalker]

Oh man! 

 

Where to start? There's so much to say but I'll limit it (at this point ) to 3 points.

 

#1 This is MOST important to me and I suspect is important to other male viewers who don't tend to post on Twitter or fan forums like this. The lack of "EPICNESS" in the show diminishes it tremendously. Where is the plan- the strategy- the "high council" to discuss the impending apocalypse and how to prevent it? Where is the urgency, the recognition of the importance of this in the characters? This is the primary problem with the show and the problem that needs to be addressed first. Making the Terminator-like Headless Horseman "human" was a big, BIG mistake. Making the big bad of this season Henry, the Cranes' son was a big mistake as well. The terror is gone. If you wish to make this into "Dark Shadows", a gothic soap opera, or into Terry Pratchett's "Discworld", so be it. That wasn't what season 1 promised, but either could be done well and be enjoyable if that was acknowledged as the model or goal. I don't think, however, that either of these models would achieve the ratings the show aspires to and has achieved in the past.

 

#2 Lack of sensitivity and understanding of fans that are POC: One thing I've learned in my brief time interacting on forums like this, is that POC and especially WOC are deeply invested in this show and especially the character of Abbie. Having Abbie as a female lead on the series is a BIG DEAL. Don't be colorblind! This is important to the fans and secondarily to the show. It would be very easy to present a narrative that is compelling and engaging to a broad audience but at the same time avoid offending and even engaging the non-white audience. Be smart, writers and show-runners! These are your biggest fans but can bring you down if you disrespect them.. Honestly, If I was the show runner, I'd hire a POC liaison to review the scripts and show direction. It's that important and these are your biggest fans. Make them happy--not just for the sake of ratings, but because their POV has  value and worth.

 

#3  Katrina….There I said it! Yes, despite my hopes for her this year, her character has dragged down the show tremendously. I honestly think the show is working on separating her from Ichabod, but the process has been painful and boring. Please ! Kill her or make her evil QUICKLY! (And eliminate Ichabod's pining for her one way or another) The fans of Katrina are a definite minority so PLEASE make her an interesting evil character or a casualty of war.  I think she's very attractive, but I'd rather the show improve its epicness than keep her around. Anyone watching TV for attractive women would quickly grow tired of Katrina. Plus there's Abbie and Jenny so the loss Katrina would be minimal and replacing her with  a cute white chick (if you think it's necessary) with less screen time would be simple. For the record, I'm all in favor of attractive women on the show of whatever race--I just think Katrina has become a drag ...

 

I may have more to say later, but that's my current take...

Edited November 24, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[Indi]

1. Katrina and the fact that she's played by the worst actress they could find.

2. Henry and Abraham = villain decay (Thanks for that one, DeLurker).

3. The Crane Family Drama. I'm including the fact that Crane is a detestable piece of shit here.

4. The sidelining of Abbie, her family and Irving + general mishandling of black characters (and other POC) and their issues.

Edited December 3, 2014 by stacey
Inappropriate nickname

[Julia]

I'm not sure how we can tell how good an actress she is from this role. It would be one thing if this were The Blacklist, where they give the character every opportunity to shine and the actress stumbles through it like she'd just come from being shot up with novocain at the dentist. We keep being told Katrina is awesome, so we expect awesome from her, but the only thing she's allowed to do is heave her bosom, cinch her waist, and make bad decisions other people have to save her from. So, she's set up to fail, but she's set up to fail by the writing.

Which is a complete failure of imagination on the part of the writers, who (with their usual fine disdain for history and period) apparently have no idea who a woman of Katrina's day would have been. Jane Austen was writing gently born characters who were sensible and competent and had enough gumption to take care of themselves and sometimes everyone around them when Katrina's grandmother was growing up. There's plenty of surviving material about how awesome the women in Ichabod's circle were (Abigail Adams much?). Women followed the army as cooks and laundresses and nurses, women secretly served as soldiers, and in a country where most of the economy was agricultural, women ran the farms and raised the children and kept the wolf from the door (literally, sometimes) while their husbands were off fighting.  

 

Instead, the writers cribbed Katrina from a nineteenth century gothic novel, where the ladies were mostly there to be menaced and faint. And all the same, they give her veto power over the team, not because she's a powerful witch who knows the untold histories and maybe has secret knowledge of what's going to happen in the future and tries to influence the outcome by playing chess with the lives of the people around her, like she did to get Ichabod here to begin with. Nope. It's because she's the Yoko/Linda of the group, the girlfriend who's breaking up the band.

 

None of which is on the actress, who seems to have gotten her breakthrough role and walked into a wood chipper of shippers and people who don't like the way her character is written and people who are over whatever the hell is up with Ichabod, none of which she has any control over. 

 

I find the romance between Ichabod and Katrina painful, because one of the things which made this show awesome in the first season was Abbie confronting the privileged assumptions even an educated and well-meaning upper class man of his time would have (John Adams, say) and how he evolved in the face of all that new information. Katrina's a step back for him that way - he fell in love with her when she was pretending to be the little woman, and he's listening to her because she's on a pedestal, not because he thinks she's right. I don't like the way the original supporting characters have been sidelined, and as much as I like Sakina Jaffrey, once she threatened to fry Irving's brain as an interrogation tactic they're not going to be redeeming her with me. 

 

So there's a mountain of suck this season, but Katia Winter seems to be getting way more than her share of the anger over it, and I don't really understand. She looks good in a corset, she poses prettily in front of a wind machine, and she throws lacy lavender-scented monkey wrenches into the works at intervals to keep the plot they want to write going. Everything they've asked her to do, she's done well. I think maybe we should be focusing our ire on the people doing the asking.

[kimberella]

She's had more lines, scenes and character focus that John Cho ever did and yet he's not in danger of being confused with a bad actor. She's had plenty of opportunities to sell intimate scenes, desperation over her son and depth of character with Mary's possible murder. The lines were there, but actors need talent or at least screen presence to sell the role. A blank pretty face does not do. When characters like Caroline, Mary and even Yolanda stand out compared to this wet blanket, the writing cannot be totally to blame.

 

What went wrong with the show? Katrina of course, but that's only a symptom of a bigger problem: Goffman, although I'm also going to throw in Albert Kim. The writers have never been top-notch, but this season they have ranged from mediocre to appalling. I don't know if that's because of Goffman or because of changes in the writing staff. Whatever it is, the Cranes have always been the least interesting part about this show and it's upsetting to see them taking over the narrative.

 

The way they see diversity and how they use it has always been problematic, but never so glaring as the moment Goffman took over. I think I've made clear my views on the hypocrisy of TPTB and diversity on this show, so I'm not going to go on a tirade about it again, but it's obvious in the way the Cranes get special treatment and the addition of Hawley.

[phoenics]

Oh man! 

 

Where to start? There's so much to say but I'll limit it (at this point ) to 3 points.

 

#1 This is MOST important to me and I suspect is important to other male viewers who don't tend to post on Twitter or fan forums like this. The lack of "EPICNESS" in the show diminishes it tremendously. Where is the plan- the strategy- the "high council" to discuss the impending apocalypse and how to prevent it? Where is the urgency, the recognition of the importance of this in the characters? This is the primary problem with the show and the problem that needs to be addressed first. Making the Terminator-like Headless Horseman "human" was a big, BIG mistake. Making the big bad of this season Henry, the Cranes' son was a big mistake as well. The terror is gone. If you wish to make this into "Dark Shadows", a gothic soap opera, or into Terry Pratchett's "Discworld", so be it. That wasn't what season 1 promised, but either could be done well and be enjoyable if that was acknowledged as the model or goal. I don't think, however, that either of these models would achieve the ratings the show aspires to and has achieved in the past.

 

#2 Lack of sensitivity and understanding of fans that are POC: One thing I've learned in my brief time interacting on forums like this, is that POC and especially WOC are deeply invested in this show and especially the character of Abbie. Having Abbie as a female lead on the series is a BIG DEAL. Don't be colorblind! This is important to the fans and secondarily to the show. It would be very easy to present a narrative that is compelling and engaging to a broad audience but at the same time avoid offending and even engaging the non-white audience. Be smart, writers and show-runners! These are your biggest fans but can bring you down if you disrespect them.. Honestly, If I was the show runner, I'd hire a POC liaison to review the scripts and show direction. It's that important and these are your biggest fans. Make them happy--not just for the sake of ratings, but because their POV has  value and worth.

 

#3  Katrina….There I said it! Yes, despite my hopes for her this year, her character has dragged down the show tremendously. I honestly think the show is working on separating her from Ichabod, but the process has been painful and boring. Please ! Kill her or make her evil QUICKLY! (And eliminate Ichabod's pining for her one way or another) The fans of Katrina are a definite minority so PLEASE make her an interesting evil character or a casualty of war.  I think she's very attractive, but I'd rather the show improve its epicness than keep her around. Anyone watching TV for attractive women would quickly grow tired of Katrina. Plus there's Abbie and Jenny so the loss Katrina would be minimal and replacing her with  a cute white chick (if you think it's necessary) with less screen time would be simple. For the record, I'm all in favor of attractive women on the show of whatever race--I just think Katrina has become a drag ...

 

I may have more to say later, but that's my current take...

 

This entire post made my day.  Thank you.

So there's a mountain of suck this season, but Katia Winter seems to be getting way more than her share of the anger over it, and I don't really understand. She looks good in a corset, she poses prettily in front of a wind machine, and she throws lacy lavender-scented monkey wrenches into the works at intervals to keep the plot they want to write going. Everything they've asked her to do, she's done well. I think maybe we should be focusing our ire on the people doing the asking.

 

You can do that, if you like.  I'm not.  Katia Winter gets exactly the ire she deserves - after that petty, petulant and un-professional tweet she sent making jabs at Ichabbie fans.  Before that, I had no beef with her.  Now?  I cannot wait for them to kill her off.

[Julia]

I don't know how many of us would be able to be polite and professional in the face of some of the things that were directed at her personally in the first season because her character was in the way of a ship. I don't know that I would be. 

 

I think Ichabod and Abbie are infinitely more interesting myself, but as always, a very few unstable people carry things too far in social media and everyone on the internet with an opinion gets labeled with it. It's not fair, but JMO, it's a lot to ask of someone who's probably not too internet savvy to pick up on that when she's being swarmed.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Julia

[phoenics]

I don't know how many of us would be able to be polite and professional in the face of some of the things that were directed at her personally in the first season because her character was in the way of a ship. I don't know that I would be.

From what I saw - nothing was directed at her personally - it was directed at Katrina. Also, Nicole Beharie has faced an untold amount of racism from fans from nearly day one - yet she's never lashed out. Not ever.

Here's the thing - that tweet was her actively doing that - it wasn't the result of an errant statement made in the heat of the moment in an interview. It was a pre-meditated tweet. There is NO excuse for that - none.

Plus with all of the excellent analysis about Katrina and the problems and issues with the character not at all being about shipping - you reduce the criticism of her to... a ship.

Really?

 

I think Ichabod and Abbie are infinitely more interesting myself, but as always, a very few unstable people carry things too far in social media and everyone on the internet with an opinion gets labeled with it. It's not fair, but JMO, it's a lot to ask of someone who's probably not too internet savvy to pick up on that when she's being swarmed.

I think she's extremely internet savvy actually - she was being petty - she got called out for it and now she has to live with it.

She gets no sympathy from me.

Edited November 24, 2014 by phoenics

[HalcyonDays]

It's because she's the Yoko/Linda of the group, the girlfriend who's breaking up the band.

 

THIS made me laugh my ass off. And it's so TRUE!

 

Everyone here is making brilliant points, so I am not going to repeat them, but I will add a few more lesser ones to the mix. These are little things that bothered me, but do make a huge impact on the overall season.

 

The dumbing down of Ichabod Crane: Goddamit, how can such a smart man become so utterly idiotic? Really? Its an insult to the character, to the actor who has to spout the dialogue, and to the viewers who are supposed to think this is normal? And then on top of that, he acts like a jerk for no reason, whenever the wife's name is spoken or the wife is there. WTF? If I was living in the 18th century, I would have shot him for his impudence.

 

The lack of resolution on anything: Why can they NOT resolved anything at all. All of these little things that have been dragging on throughout the season, with no answers. The biggest of course is why Katrina so shady. But things like why didn't the medallion work for Abbie? HOW does Katrina know Ichabod's a Witness, i.e. who told her in advance? Why is her magic weak now? Before, it was a spell around the house via Henry, now it's the time in Purgatory. So which one is it?

Why was Abbie messed up in Purgatory, but not Katrina? Is Ichabod under a spell, for him to act so differently. Where did Jenny go, who did she meet on her travels. Why have we never seen the Hessians again. What, did the Mills sisters and Ichabod wipe them all out? Why was Abbie the chosen Mills Witness? Who else was supposed to be the Witness, since Ichabod wasn't supposed to be in the 21st century (or was he). Why did NOT ONE tell Ichabod he was a Witness, but all of the founding fathers knew? There are so many more questions, but these writers cannot hammer out the mythology of the show, so they drop a hint in the show, then drop it completely and there is no resolution.

 

At least the X-Files had their myth-arc, and while it changed or evolved, certain elements stayed the same and questions were answered. SH refuses to do that, instead wasting their time showcasing StruggleWitch and CFD? There could be such a good mysterious element underlining this show, but they choose to ignore it.

[Julia]

Plus with all of the excellent analysis about Katrina and the problems and issues with the character not at all being about shipping - you reduce the criticism of her to... a ship.

Really?

 

No, I don't. I haven't. I haven't in the post you're quoting, and I haven't in any earlier posts. 

 

What I am attributing to the small, noisy group of shippers who can't differentiate the show from the people in the show is the personal attacks on the actress in social media, which absolutely did take place. 

Edited November 24, 2014 by Julia

[catrox14]

Regarding Ichabod, I wonder if they are trying to reset by going back to the original tale of Sleepy Hollow with Ichabod being an asshole and not bright which is a terrible idea NOW after making him so charming and intelligent and sexy. And by elevating Katrina to be the sexy fought over damsel, which again is a terrible idea because they kept saying she was a powerful witch but never showed it.

[Norskgirl02]

There have been so many things that have gone wrong this season, it really was hard to pick just one. But, like someone else said, a lot of the problems can be traced back to Katrina and how she has been/is being written. I really don't know how the writers/producers can correct the problem now without digging themselves into a deeper hole.

[phoenics]

No, I don't. I haven't. I haven't in the post you're quoting, and I haven't in any earlier posts. 

 

What I am attributing to the small, noisy group of shippers who can't differentiate the show from the people in the show is the personal attacks on the actress in social media, which absolutely did take place.

Since I only joined fandom a short time ago, I cannot speak to that well - but let's say those were there. They were also there (in droves) for NB (fandom saved screenshots of it) - but she never lashed out.

That's being a professional and again - I still have NO sympathy for KW. None. She lashed out at all fans as though they are a monolith and for that, she got dragged. So did that foolish writer who retweeted that the #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter were haters and not real fans. And they both deserved it.

Let's just say we see Katia's actions differently and leave it at that.

Regarding Ichabod, I wonder if they are trying to reset by going back to the original tale of Sleepy Hollow with Ichabod being an asshole and not bright which is a terrible idea NOW after making him so charming and intelligent and sexy. And by elevating Katrina to be the sexy fought over damsel, which again is a terrible idea because they kept saying she was a powerful witch but never showed it.

*gasp* Oh noes.

That would literally make me cry. Especially since that has nothing to do with the Apocalypse - and where would Abbie fit into that at all?

*stay calm, phoenics* Don't panic!

[HalcyonDays]

Regarding Ichabod, I wonder if they are trying to reset by going back to the original tale of Sleepy Hollow with Ichabod being an asshole and not bright which is a terrible idea NOW after making him so charming and intelligent and sexy. And by elevating Katrina to be the sexy fought over damsel, which again is a terrible idea because they kept saying she was a powerful witch but never showed it.

 

Can you imagine? I've been saying character assassination for season 2 Ichabod all season, but if they do this, I will weep for what could have been! Of course, if the writers want to go there, then Katrina technically picks Brom and was never in love with Ichabod in the first place! Hmm..maybe this show can be salvaged after all - just have Katrina choose Abraham, go off into the night, and bring back "charming and intelligent and sexy" Crane.

 

*stay calm, phoenics* Don't panic!

 

It's okay, phoenics. That's what this thread is for - to provide an area to rant a little over what could have been...

[Moonsky]

You can do that, if you like.  I'm not.  Katia Winter gets exactly the ire she deserves - after that petty, petulant and un-professional tweet she sent making jabs at Ichabbie fans.  Before that, I had no beef with her.  Now?  I cannot wait for them to kill her off.

 

 

I read & watch interviews from this cast to get an idea of what to expect during the season & generally speaking I don’t think I’ve ever come across any actor/actress who on a consistent basis takes it to heart that a pairing they’re in isn’t being shipped as much as they assumed it would be like Katia Winter does. She’s been pretty open about not understanding why fans don’t see the chemistry between Ichabod/Katrina, not really getting why Katrina isn’t beloved, & not wanting Ichabod/Abbie to turn romantic despite its popularity, & even when she tries to pretend like those things don’t bother her, she fails because it really is that easy to detect.

 

I remember in the beginning of season one Katia use to compare Abbie/Ichabod to Mulder/Scully which many viewers/media do but she would do it in a way that made viewers who watched both shows clown her. They would say things like I guess Katia didn’t watch all seasons of the X-Files & see the movie because it was obvious from her interviews that she saw Ichabod/Abbie as strictly platonic with no undertones of any possible romance. I’ve only seen a few episodes of the X-Files but even I knew that some of what she was saying was kind of like wishful thinking.

 

I don’t know if anyone has explained by now how fandom works to Katia because despite what is happening on screen fans will ship whatever they want. I’ve seen characters on other television shows that have never even met before sometimes over many seasons still get shipped by viewers, so the fact that Ichabod/Katrina isn’t a big enough thing to Katia’s liking, that Katrina isn’t as beloved as she probably assumed her character would be, & Ichabod/Abbie is popular regardless if viewers ship it platonically and/or romantically probably shouldn’t be taken so personally by her because many actors in shows with cult followings go through being disliked & handle it better but oh well it is what it is.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Moonsky

[HalcyonDays]

I gave her a pass in season one, whenever she said things like "You will see why we are in love, blah blah..." only because it was only a few episodes in, and I figured we would get something. However, I was struck by Ichabbie in the pilot. Then I think Sin Eater happened, and I was like, "what chemistry?" There is nothing or at least very little. Very little if at all. And nothing that told me of an epic love.

 

Season 2 rolls around, and I know she repeated the same thing, but there is nothing at all that signals to me that it truly is. Especially when one simple look from Crane to Abbie is total eye-porn, but I keep hearing "just wait." Yeah...no. And I'm not being stubborn or closed minded either. I mean, when I watched the pilot, I wanted a good show - I couldn't help it if the final scene hooked me into Ichabbie. It just did.

 

I get that she wants the attention on her and is probably resentful, but the rest of the cast goes out of their way to embrace everyone. Hell, you see Mison do it all of the time - he wants attention on Beharie, not himself. It's unfortunately, to be honest. Even Beharie classily deflects.

 

Sometimes people just don't have that chemistry. I mean, there are real-life couples that have zero on screen. And I remember the Mulder and Scully thing and was also like - uh, you do know they ended up together and people wanted them together, right?

 

But the lack of chemistry is just one of many parts of what's wrong with CFD, Katrina, Henry and the whole second season.

[fantique]

Before I start my list. 

Julia, I agree with you on the lack of imagination from the writers and the fact that even with the best acting chops in the world, KW couldn't save the mess that is Katrina (see John Noble). However, I do think that she makes bad acting choices sometimes, especially in scenes with TM. I also really doubt she was given directions to breathy whisper lines (I liked it when in Purgatory, it gave a sense of foreboding and it highlighted the fact that she wasn't really "solid"). At first I thought, of course she's going to be breathing heavily with those god forsaken corsets on but in scenes when she's more physically active she's less "heave-y". I never had a problem with her costume or body language last season. I also have a problem connecting with her during scenes with Henry for example when one of her touchstones is about being a mother trying to keep her family whole and feeling guilty for leaving her son behind. That said, I don't think she's a truly bad actress, she acted the hell out of that "delivery" scene. I was in pain for her. It's just that she leaves no emotional impact. I tend to appreciate actors who have a deep conceptual understanding of their character, I feel she lacks that. Also she was on Dexter so this is not her first rodeo.

 

I also agree with RiddleyWalker (on everything but specifically this since I didn't think of it myself), as they became aware that representation of races in the show is important to a large of the viewers, they should've made sure to have someone who can be a consultant because I don't think that creatively they should have to worry about that. Someone who says "Um guys, there are some undertones here that can be offensive". I honestly didn't think it was a big deal that a big part of the cast wasn't white because to me that's normal. Regardless, it's something that's important on TV here right now and if it's in their plus column, they should keep it up.

 

On with my grievances:

This is sad because it feels like everything that could go wrong happened at the same time. Seriously.

What saddens me the most as well, is that the production value of the show is great, the acting is great, monster designs, everything that usually is an obstacle to bringing the writing to life is on point. The episodes were great by themselves but the character development and the overall forward motion has been missing.

 

• I have a problem with them having 2 great characters the audience loves in Jenny and Irving and not using them. Not because they are black, because they are interesting and we made a connection with them.

 

• The misuse of their villains. Redemption takes time and the problem is, as soon as we found out JENRY was evil, there was talk of getting him to be good. The redemption should have started in season 2b after seeds are carefully planted that maybe it's a frightened little boy holding on to the only father he knew. They should have shown fewer Cranes vs son interactions because less is more. Headless is a fool and they don't even play that angle in an interesting way. I wish to see more conflict with Henry and moloch. Now moloch is a child and has a "human" incarnation. I want all the monsters to stay monsters for heaven's sake, that's part of what makes them scary.

 

• The pacing and the plotting is so bad. It feels like the past 9 episodes were really worth 3/4 episodes in the first season. The breakneck pace of the first season was one of the things that made it such an exhilarating ride with some moments of rest. This season it's more slow development with a little bit of the speed we were used to. This exploratory pace could have worked in season one but we already know what team evil wants, who they are, etc. Having so many episodes where they keep failing to bring Moloch is boring. It all feels like wasted screentime.

 

• K&O are busy with the Scorpion/The mummy/next star trek, Iscove is nowhere to be seen and this whole thing was his idea. I want more of the original team back. Their vision just was more exciting to me. Len Wiseman is all about the creature design and the aesthetics of the show (which are superb) but we need people who are more savvy with the tv storytelling medium, he's mostly made movies.

 

• Abbie is a character that is generally popular and has such an interesting story from the get go and we are exploring too little of it. She is getting as much storyline as a secondary regular character would. I still think the back half will involve more of her backstory's than Crane's but I think they should have gone with the one episode each formula as opposed to half a season each (as I'm hoping they are doing) otherwise it does feel like she's not a co-lead. It would have been fine had the Cranes storyline been compelling but since it isn't, I'm like "Can we get to Abbie's bit now?" 

 

• War is here, the personal stakes should be centred around what one loses in a war, family, trust and allies,etc. The attempt to add romance, especially bad one, is not doing it for me. I defended the Cranes' relationship because I thought it would be more about them as a fighting pair, not a bajillion declarations a day of their (sucky) love while she is shown to be bad at the one thing she could be bringing to the team. You're telling me they have to fight off the apocalypse and then you want to add a love triangle?  No really show, ask me how little shit I give.

 

• I forgot, I have a huge problem with the fact that apparently now Sleepy Hollow has 25 fucking people living there. We see too little of the town being busy, every MotW brings it back to TW. It's annoying. This is one of the things I am so glad they dropped in Supernatural. The brothers get caught up in shit because they are hunters, not because there is writing on the wall that says they must be every supernatural chosen one in the freaking universe. This also brings it back to the lack of imagination. Why did Katrina have to be the one birthing moloch? Why couldn't they have found a girl who is a descendant of one of the members of her coven. While it was cool to meet Joe Corbin, did the Wendigo have to be him? Why couldn't have been someone who hangs out with him and they realise it was actually someone else all along. The Pied piper episode was the only one that was completely random and it made it cool to then see Henry use it for his nefarious plans. They have already established that there are supernatural entities that go evil and align themselves with moloch i.e: the sandman.

Edited November 24, 2014 by fantique

[DeLurker]

 

Julia, I agree with you on the lack of imagination from the writers and the fact that even with the best acting chops in the world, KW couldn't save the mess that is Katrina (see John Noble). However, I do think that she makes bad acting choices sometimes, especially in scenes with TM. I also really doubt she was given directions to breathy whisper lines

Thank you!  The bad writing and bad acting are not mutually exclusive.  I'd question the direction though too when it comes to KW.  No one else seems to suffer from the same clap trap she falls into almost every time she is on screen.  To me it plays out like Goffman's (or whoever) personal porn brought to life (which is apparently based on Sweet Polly Purebread being tied to railroad tracks).

 

I've got very little tolerance for their missteps in social media and in the press - they are on a show that hit it huge and everyone acknowledged that they loved the whole whacky idea (that sounded like it would be the worst show ever).  The press is not new; social media is no longer new and PR/marketing experts are readily available.  Manage it.  Orlando Jones and NB are handling things fine.

 

And sadly, they are turning this surprise hit show into the worst show - well, maybe not the "worst" but...I seriously watched the pilot because I was expecting some really good bad tv and they surprised the hell (hee!) out of me.  S2 I've watched expecting good tv and I'm getting mostly bad.  I feel like a parent with that underachieving kid that has so much potential but they aren't using it and now have fallen in with the wrong crowd.

[fantique]

... (which is apparently based on Sweet Polly Purebred being tied to railroad tracks).

 

...  I feel like a parent with that underachieving kid that has so much potential but they aren't using it and now have fallen in with the wrong crowd.

Oh my god, you're too funny. I laughed so hard when I saw this.

 

I love the parent with the underachieving kid analogy. That's exactly how I feel. I want to hire a tutor, go to counselling sessions to root out the problem and have a meeting with all their teachers.

Edited November 24, 2014 by fantique

[savinggrace]

I wish someone would send the writers a link to this thread. So much truth is being spoken.

 

One of my gripes that I hadn't seen mentioned is the seeming reluctance to go full on with a religious angle. I'm not even the most religious person but if they're going to bring up the Four Horseman and Revelation they need to acknowledge the whole Judgement Day/End of Times and Christianity in general.Why keep speaking of redemption for Henry but not of God or Jesus? The Bible is treated like some sort of  prop or dictionary for mystical objects (" Oh didn't Judas get 30 coins to betray Jesus? So yeah this evil coin must be one of those!"). It's just weird to me that they won't explore that angle. I think it would attract a ton of viewers.

 

I think it was a poor and completely unnecessary mistake to sidetrack Irving with the murder rap. He was perfect in his role as skeptical police chief-turned-believer. He could have given Abbie and Ichabod inside resources and there would not have been a need to send him on the Plotline that Yielded Less Screentime and split up the team. His burgeoning relationship with Jenny could have flourished.

 

I agree that the writers are tone-deaf with regard to the racial aspect. I love Hawley and think he would have been embraced more by core fans had his presence not coincided with an (unnecessary) reduction in screen time for Jenny and Irving and increase in Katrina/Henry. Incidentally the feedback from non-core fans (i.e. facebook commenters) on Hawley is overwhelmingly positive but still you cannot alienate the core base. They are the ones who help with the social media buzz.

Edited November 24, 2014 by savinggrace

[phoenics]

I agree that they've missed the religious boat - if for nothing more than we've seen massive contingency from Team Evil, but no one from Team Good. Where is the course correction from God for the Witnesses and specifically for Ichabod straying off course and putting folks in danger (letting them die) while he frets about Henry? We've seen demons - but what about some angels.

I do think they're using the Bible as a prop - but given how I know they won't respect the material fully I'm not sure I want them to use it as much more than that, lol. But if I was writing this, I would (but then again I respect it).

[savinggrace]

I agree that they've missed the religious boat - if for nothing more than we've seen massive contingency from Team Evil, but no one from Team Good. Where is the course correction from God for the Witnesses and specifically for Ichabod straying off course and putting folks in danger (letting them die) while he frets about Henry? We've seen demons - but what about some angels.

I do think they're using the Bible as a prop - but given how I know they won't respect the material fully I'm not sure I want them to use it as much more than that, lol. But if I was writing this, I would (but then again I respect it).

 

When Ichatrina keeps speaking of redemption for Henry my first thought is about who is awarding him that redemption. Ichatrina? What will Henry's redemption entail? Does he just say "Sorry Mom & Dad", receive forgiveness and all is well? Do all those innocent people he killed get brushed under the rug and the Cranes live together as a big happy family? I don't see how you can speak of redemption  for sins without mentioning God in some context. The writers seem to be going out of their way to make the Witness's Journey non-denominational. Will Henry be redeemed by Joel Osteen?

Edited November 24, 2014 by savinggrace

[phoenics]

When Ichatrina keeps speaking of redemption for Henry my first thought is about who is awarding him that redemption. Ichatrina? What will Henry's redemption entail? Does he just say "Sorry Mom & Dad", receive forgiveness and all is well? Do all those innocent people he killed get brushed under the rug and the Cranes live together as a big happy family? I don't see how you can speak of redemption  for sins without mentioning God in some context. The writers seem to be going out of their way to make the Witness's Journey non-denominational. Will Henry be redeemed by Joel Osteen?

LMBO! Yes - this bothered me too - especially since they're so intent on saving Henry, but Abraham be damned. And yes - because of their selective "redemption", it does seem to be playing God - but the show never mentions God - and never even any agents of God (angels, etc).

[HalcyonDays]

When Ichatrina keeps speaking of redemption for Henry my first thought is about who is awarding him that redemption. Ichatrina? What will Henry's redemption entail? Does he just say "Sorry Mom & Dad", receive forgiveness and all is well? Do all those innocent people he killed get brushed under the rug and the Cranes live together as a big happy family? I don't see how you can speak of redemption  for sins without mentioning God in some context. The writers seem to be going out of their way to make the Witness's Journey non-denominational. Will Henry be redeemed by Joel Osteen?

 

Exactly! I mean, the people in Purgatory are there (I assume) because they have commited serious sins and need to redeem themselves before they can cross to heaven or hell. Now I believe the show said that Moloch decides who crosses. But if Henry repents, is "god" going to just say, "Ah, well, those people you killed were collateral damage. Come on in!" Not gonna happen.

 

Again, the mythology needed to be pounded out and detailed, and they at least have time to do that for the second season, but it's very flaky and confusing. in fact, one of the writers is supposed to be the "continuity" person, but has failed spectacularly. That mythology is yet another thing that went wrong with Sleepy Hollow. Things change each week, or don't make sense, or contradict.

 

I had a theory in season 1 about shady!Katrina, that she was the daughter of Moloch (long lived, a witch, shady, allowed to wander in Purgatory without incident) and was hoping that would turn out to be the case. If that's the case, then she could in a way redeem Henry, but forcing/convincing Moloch to allow him to pass to the next plane.

[DeLurker]

 I love the parent with the underachieving kid analogy. That's exactly how I feel. I want to hire a tutor, go to counselling sessions to root out the problem and have a meeting with all their teachers.

Yes! Maybe we need to take our problem child to the doctor and get it on some medication?

And they have pretty much scampered away from religion which is an odd choice given the premise.

Katrina as Moloch's daughter? That is awesome!

[RiddleyWalker]

 

Again, the mythology needed to be pounded out and detailed, and they at least have time to do that for the second season, but it's very flaky and confusing. in fact, one of the writers is supposed to be the "continuity" person, but has failed spectacularly. That mythology is yet another thing that went wrong with Sleepy Hollow. Things change each week, or don't make sense, or contradict.

 

I totally agree! This is a MAJOR problem. The mythology is confused and at times contradictory. Whatever happened to the Hessians? What about the Masons and the "good" witch covens? And is there nothing helpful in Corbin's (and Jenny's) research? It's all so damn haphazard--like they're reinventing the mythology with every episode. We don't need to know everything right off the bat, but it should all tie together. 

 

Early on in a show it's all new to the characters (and us) but at this point in the show's run there should be a more detailed and coherent mythology so we can better understand the successes and set-backs of the characters.

[phoenics]

I agree about them reinventing the mythology every episode - it's because they focused so hard on the CFD. If they had continued on the path they were on with Abbie and the ties to Corbin's research and Washington's bible, it would make so much more sense.

Are the Hessians the dudes who are Henry's henchmen? That's what I assumed - maybe I was wrong.

[catrox14]

Seriously WTF is up with all FUN being sucked out in favor of CFD

.

/has a sad

[phoenics]

/has a sad with you... :(

I'm trying to remember the last time I really had fun with this show... I think it was the S2 premiere... but even those small moments with Katrina ruined it for me... though the shirtless Headless almost helped... but still...

[RiddleyWalker]

I agree about them reinventing the mythology every episode - it's because they focused so hard on the CFD. If they had continued on the path they were on with Abbie and the ties to Corbin's research and Washington's bible, it would make so much more sense.

Are the Hessians the dudes who are Henry's henchmen? That's what I assumed - maybe I was wrong.

Ah, Yes! I'd forgotten about them acting as his henchmen! My bad...

[phoenics]

Though - they've dropped that mythology too so it could be anyone - doesn't have to be Hessians...

[Morrigan2575]

I voted Henry/Katrina as the worse thing, although all of those reflect my issues but I think they all stem from focusing on Henry/Katrina Crane Family Drama which has forced everything and everyone else into the background.  

 

I don't ship Abbie/Ichabod in a romantic sense, I'm not opposed to it but I don't care if it ever happens.  However, I love their relationship and interaction and by forcing Katrina into the mix is disrupts the fun of the Icahabbie interactions.  Katrina and CFD has also turned Crane into a bad character/person (IMO).  I remember back on TWOP during the S1 finale there was a divide over Ichabod's actions, I personally viewed Ichabod redrawing the map as a betrayal, I don't care that he claimed he wasn't going to use it without permission, to me that was BS, if Henry hadn't given him the excuse he would badgered Abbie until she gave in or done it behind her back (IMO).  I think Katrina and CFD makes Ichabod into less of a hero and I don't like him anymore.

 

I think CFD/Katrina have also resulted in Jenny/Irving getting pushed aside, I know it's not a one for one, you can have all but I think what's happened is the EPs/Writers have been so focused on telling a particular story CFD that they don't have time or care to provide actual storylines for Jenny and Irving.  I also think CFD ties into Jenny going missing in particular because of Hawley.  Hawley was brought on as a love interest for Abbie..perhaps as a distraction/consolation prize for Ichabbie shippers so they could focus on Katrina/Ichabod OTP?  

 

Deliverance broke me and Heartless was my last live watching, I watched Mama almost a week late, after reading all the reviews (great episode).  I haven't watched Magnum Opus yet and based on the comments in the episode thread I don't think I will.  I'm fairly certain I won't be back after the winter break, I'll keep reading posts here but this show just isn't entertaining anymore.

[Neurochick]

Katrina and Henry happened.  

 

The end.

[BigEasygirl]

The show has totally lost its way and its heart. It is truly "Heartless." Nearly everything seems shallow and contrived, and I doubt Goffman and these writers have the talent or the vision to fix the show even if they were willing to admit to the problems. Goffman seems like an entitled diva, so unless he's fired, I'm not that hopeful the show will find its way again.

[Indi]

The show has totally lost its way and its heart. It is truly "Heartless." Nearly everything seems shallow and contrived, and I doubt Goffman and these writers have the talent or the vision to fix the show even if they were willing to admit to the problems. Goffman seems like an entitled diva, so unless he's fired, I'm not that hopeful the show will find its way again.

 

Lol, I've seen that description assigned to Ichy. It is true though and it explains so much!

[catrox14]

To me the show lost its sense of humor. We could have every bat crap cray cray thing mixed with some surprisingly effective pathos with Abbie, Ichabod, Irving, Jenny, Andy and Corbin. They knew exactly when to pull back the humor and when to run with it and most importantly they let the audience in on the joke and trusted we were smart enough to get it. I miss that show.

Now it's mirth less, and joyless. And even the go to Rants of Ichabod Crane feel inorganic now. The pacing of the episodes make no sense.

[DeLurker]

I did not even watch last night's show, but just reading the thread I am getting the sads.

[LydiaMoon1]

Season one promised to give me two witnesses and their mission to stop demons hellbent on triggering the Apocolypse.  Instead of fulfilling season one's promise, all season two has given me is this lame Harlequin romance.

Edited November 25, 2014 by LydiaMoon1

[Neurochick]

This is what I think is wrong with the show:

 

I'm not saying that the showrunners are a bunch of Klan carrying racists, but something is off about them.  From where I sit, they have this attitude that Katrina is the only woman on the show; that Abbie and Jenny aren't really attractive women; that Katrina is the one all the men want.  That attitude is not only racist, but untrue.  I was on Twitter last night and just about everybody on there can't stand Katrina or her bad wigs.  So what's the deal then?  I think the showrunners are scared shitless because they have two very attractive WOC and have no idea what to do with them, so they cast them aside, and as a result the show is suffering; and is beginning to suck.

[blixie]

 

I'm not saying that the showrunners are a bunch of Klan carrying racists, but something is off about them.

 

Eh, I think it's incredibly telling that Kevin Reilly rolled out The Mindy Project, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and Sleepy Hollow and said that diverse casting wasn't "colorblind" happenstance, but INTENTIONAL policy (he then of course got fired 6 months later). And then around mid season suddenly The Sleepy Hollow crew specifically was suddenly *denying* this as if it were a BAD thing, to be intentionally diverse about representation. So yeah I'd say there is something off about their understanding of racism and that colorblind bullshit is just another flavor of it that denies the real world lived experience of people of color (especially WoC), and the way they are largely not represented on television ever: as Heroic Leads, as Heroic Romantic Leads, as three dimensional rootable relateable characters. Stop running away from, indeed actively undermining the SINGLE best thing about your show: it's kick ass Black female hero, and your brilliant and wonderful lead actress Nikki Beharie.

[LydiaMoon1]

Agreed.  There's nothing unintentional about what's going on here.  Go ahead and tell the truth and shame the devil (if he's even decent enough to know shame).

[SimoneS]

Eh, I think it's incredibly telling that Kevin Reilly rolled out The Mindy Project, Brooklyn Nine-Nine, and Sleepy Hollow and said that diverse casting wasn't "colorblind" happenstance, but INTENTIONAL policy (he then of course got fired 6 months later).

 

Kevin Reilly got fired because he turned FOX entertainment into a money losing disaster zone. God forbid that I defend the horrific Murdochs, but if they had a huge problem with diversity, they would have cancelled low rated Mindy Project (and IMO embarrassingly bad) immediately after Reilly was fired. The problems with Sleepy Hollow's second season lie on the shoulders of the showrunner.

Edited November 26, 2014 by SimoneS