S06.E22: The Man Who Knew Too Much

[Guest]

The wall comes down in Sam’s head and all hell breaks loose. Dean and Bobby are, for once, at a total loss on how to help him and are forced to stand by and do nothing while Sam breaks. The battle for heaven comes to a head.

 

 

[DittyDotDot]

For Kripke's last hurrah, it's not a bad one, just maybe could've been better. Overall, I think this is a solid episode, but I feel like it should've been two separate episodes in the end. I have that problem with most of their season finales though, so that's nothing new. I do think it ends well to set up the next season, but it just doesn't have that season finale feel to it. I remember thinking there must be one more episode when I finished watching it the first time. Maybe my perception is somewhat warped though since I started binge-watching the show while S6 was airing and the last three episodes of the season are the first ones I watched in real time. I don't know.

 

I like the structure of the episode and I like the idea of the three Sams needing to put themselves back together. And, I love the way they pulled the inside-Sam's-head and outside-Sam's-head stories together: the music tie-in; the moment it becomes day because Dean's shining a light in Sam's unconscious eyes; and, Sam being able to smell whiskey the whole time were all strokes of genius. I also love Dean's reactions and sitting vigil over Sam, but when the time came he knows he's gotta leave Sam and deal with the more pressing worldly problem. And, I always enjoy Bobby and Dean working together, so their whole "squeaky knees" exchange was a nice touch. I just feel like Castiel's parts are a little cramped when sandwiched in between those other two stories. I think it all could've been served better if we skipped the horrible parts of the previous episode and spread some of this out a little more.

 

Okay, the good to end on: I love seeing Erica Cerra (the woman Sam finds in the bar) and Sam and Dean seem very Sam and Dean which is how I prefer them.

[Goldmoon]

I am in the process of a re-watch and haven't seen this one since it aired.  JP's acting does not impress me most of the time. However his broken bird Sammy with the bloody face and the full memories of hell just kills me.  I actually wanted more of him!  I thought this ep was very well done.  On to season seven!

[AwesomO4000]

I'm surprised that I hadn't commented on this one before... (I must have done it in the survivor thread.)

 

This is one of my favorite Sam episodes. I thought it was a fairly strong finale and it set up season 7 well I thought. All the characters had strong stories and important parts to play here. I liked the way the mystery played out, and I didn't mind Castiel's parts in there. And in addition to all the positive things that DittyDotDot mentioned above (especially the meshing of Sam's dreamworld to the real world), I loved that Sam made the choice to come back and help Dean even though the price was going to be high. and I loved that Dean did what he had to do, because the world was at stake, and even though he was still upset with Cas, he was still so upset when he thought he'd lost him.

 

Over all, I loved this one.

[Dobian]

This whole season felt very disjointed and cobbled together.  First it was about soulless Sam, then it was about Eve, then it was about Castiel's civil war with Raphael and his subsequent power trip.  I liked the Sam's head part of the final episode, it was well done.  Castiel becoming a god and acting all high and mighty, not so much.  I don't know how they redeem the character from this, he's basically turned into a lying, backstabbing murderer.  So long, Balthazar.  They always kill off the fun angels (like Gabriel).

[DittyDotDot]

So I finally got to the end of S6 on this rewatch. Something that I got to thinking about: they apparently needed the blood of a Purgatory native in order to open the door; how did Lovecraft have such a thing? Not really important, just thinking about stuff.

Anyhoo, I really like Castiel's story for this season--probably the only story arc I found well-executed in S6--just wish they'd given it more breathing room at the end. Still, interesting how Castiel managed to turn the tables on Crowley, while still paving his own way to Hell. 

[Hanahope]

Well, that was an interesting way to end the season, turn Castiel into a real asshole.

I have to agree, the season seemed a bit all over the place.  I really hated soul-less Sam, but I suppose something was necessary to get to the soul story.  I think it just went on a little too long.  And I think there should have been more, at least at the beginning, with Grampa Campbell.  It was just odd how badly he treated Dean, his grandson.  I suppose part of it may be because Gramps never really liked John Winchester and Dean is very much like him.  And maybe part of it was because he didn't like much of what he saw in Sam, and he didn't know who Sam was before, so he didn't know Sam lost his soul and wasn't acting normally.  So Gramps may have thought Dean would end up being like Sam, very ruthless, which Gramps probably put down as another con against John (thinking John brought them up like this).

And I sortof thought the timing of raising Sam/Gramps went a little fast.  Castiel was unwilling to disturb Dean in his new life, but it seemed that not enough time had past for Castiel to think Dean was 'content' in his new life, so soon after losing his brother, and living a life without all the adrenalin of being a hunter.

And there never was an explanation, that I recall, of whether Castiel knew Sam would be raised without his soul, or if that was actually Castiel's intention (I got the impression he didn't, but it was a bit unclear), in order to work with Crowley.   or was it Crowley that raised Sam?  I'm not sure it was clear who exactly did what.  And now that I think of it, did Sam actually know Gramps was working with Crowley?  if not, what did Sam know about why they were capturing alphas (and lesser monsters in order to find alphas).  And really, why did they need to raise Sam to do this anyway, wasn't Gramps and his crew good enough?  Yeah, I know, had to get Sam back into the story somehow.

And then the Eve story kindof came and went a bit too fast.  It seemed like that could have been expanded more.

And finally, I would have liked to learn more about the "monster" that HP Lovecraft raised, as that story sure flew by fast.

And why did Raphael keep changing bodies?

I did like the story of Sam putting himself back together.  He and Dean should talk and share stories of their time in hell, it might help.

Overall, I thought the story arc was good, but I think it could have been better expanded over another season (and obviously the next season is going to be either taking out/down Castiel/god or at least getting him to remember why he helped Sam & Dean in the first place).  It did seem like every episode had a piece of the overall story, so not much "fat" to trim if they wanted to otherwise expand the story into "filler" episodes.  Even the fun episodes had some necessary information.  Maybe they could have cut the soulless sam episodes down a bit (or provided more info in them).

[DittyDotDot]

42 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And I sortof thought the timing of raising Sam/Gramps went a little fast.  Castiel was unwilling to disturb Dean in his new life, but it seemed that not enough time had past for Castiel to think Dean was 'content' in his new life, so soon after losing his brother, and living a life without all the adrenalin of being a hunter.

Yeah, there was a lot of conveniently convenient plots going on. I think they overthought how to get the show going again and then under-thought the actual storylines. It was a bit of a mess at times.

42 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And there never was an explanation, that I recall, of whether Castiel knew Sam would be raised without his soul, or if that was actually Castiel's intention (I got the impression he didn't, but it was a bit unclear), in order to work with Crowley.   or was it Crowley that raised Sam?  I'm not sure it was clear who exactly did what.

It was Cass who pulled Sam out of the cage. He talks about it as part of his monologue to God in The Man Who Would Be King:

• "And so I knew what I had to do next. Once again, I went to Harrow Hell, to free Sam from Lucifer's cage. It was nearly impossible, but I was so full of confidence, of mission. I see now that was arrogance...Hubris...Because, of course, I hadn't truly raised Sam -- not all of him. Sometimes we're lucky enough to be given a warning. This should have been mine."

This was long before he made his deal with Crowley, so Sam was not part of working with Crowley.

42 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And now that I think of it, did Sam actually know Gramps was working with Crowley?  if not, what did Sam know about why they were capturing alphas (and lesser monsters in order to find alphas).  And really, why did they need to raise Sam to do this anyway, wasn't Gramps and his crew good enough?  Yeah, I know, had to get Sam back into the story somehow.

Sam didn't know Grampy was working with Crowley, he was just as surprised to learn that as Dean was. Soulless Sam said all he knew was Grampy was capturing monsters and taking them somewhere to interrogate them. He was soulless though, so he didn't care to ask any questions. But, they didn't raise Sam to find Purgatory, they raised Grampy for that purpose. Sam just fell in with the Campbells by accident, but wasn't an intricate part of the plan, as far as I know.

42 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And finally, I would have liked to learn more about the "monster" that HP Lovecraft raised, as that story sure flew by fast.

Totally. I would've preferred they focus that episode on the Lovecraft story only. This show has a real problem with pacing, starting with S6, IMO. They tend to twiddle their thumbs until the last three or four episodes and then cram everything in at the end. As a result, most of their main arcs end up being under serviced. While I didn't have a problem with Soulless Sam, I think they could've cut that short by half and started developing the Eve/Purgatory storyline a lot earlier and given the last couple episodes a lot more room to breathe. But, alas, it was not to be. Sigh. 

42 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And why did Raphael keep changing bodies?

Raphael's original vessel was destroyed by Balthazar with the pillar of salt gag at the beginning of the season. He had to go find a new one after that. Those were the only two bodies he had though. The woman at the end of the season is the same woman he was possessing at the end of The French Mistake.

Edited May 31, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Hanahope]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Raphael's original vessel was destroyed by Balthazar with the pillar of salt gag at the beginning of the season. He had to go find a new one after that. Those were the only two bodies he had though. The woman at the end of the season is the same woman he was possessing at the end of The French Mistake.

Oh yeah.  I got the time line messed up because I knew I'd seen both the man and woman before, then the man seemed to show up again, but that was Castiel's flashback, and then the woman again.

So if Castiel raised Sam, just because, why didn't he follow up with him and wonder why Sam hadn't told Dean he was alive for an entire year?  Was it because since Sam was 'soulless', Castiel couldn't hear/see where Sam was until Sam got Dean?

And seriously, we should have seen Sam meet up with Grampy Campbell and family and how all that went down.

[DittyDotDot]

36 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

So if Castiel raised Sam, just because, why didn't he follow up with him and wonder why Sam hadn't told Dean he was alive for an entire year?  Was it because since Sam was 'soulless', Castiel couldn't hear/see where Sam was until Sam got Dean?

I think we're supposed to believe that Castiel just didn't understand there was something off about Sam at first and then he got preoccupied with his war and his deal with Crowley that he just wasn't paying attention. Also, apparently Sam prayed to Cass hoping to find answers and Cass ignored those prayers. I think he was purposely avoiding Sam--and Dean--because he knew what he was doing with Crowley would not be something they'd approve of.

39 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

And seriously, we should have seen Sam meet up with Grampy Campbell and family and how all that went down.

I know, right? I mean, that was important business, if you ask me.

[Hanahope]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think we're supposed to believe that Castiel just didn't understand there was something off about Sam at first and then he got preoccupied with his war and his deal with Crowley that he just wasn't paying attention. Also, apparently Sam prayed to Cass hoping to find answers and Cass ignored those prayers. I think he was purposely avoiding Sam--and Dean--because he knew what he was doing with Crowley would not be something they'd approve of.

Hmm, that makes sense.  Its just that when Sam finally did contact Dean and Dean called for Cas, he came right away.  That's why I was thinking that because Sam had no soul, Cas couldn't hear him.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

17 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Its just that when Sam finally did contact Dean and Dean called for Cas, he came right away.  That's why I was thinking that because Sam had no soul, Cas couldn't hear him.  

That makes a lot of sense to me.  Never thought of it before!

[DittyDotDot]

51 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Hmm, that makes sense.  Its just that when Sam finally did contact Dean and Dean called for Cas, he came right away.

But, he came right away because of the staff of Moses, not because he heard Dean's prayers and not Sam's. He said he didn't answer Sam's prayers because he had nothing to offer--which was a lie--and then when Dean realized there really was something wrong with Sam, he prayed and Cass still didn't show. So I figure he was purposefully ignoring them both.

[Hanahope]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

But, he came right away because of the staff of Moses, not because he heard Dean's prayers and not Sam's. He said he didn't answer Sam's prayers because he had nothing to offer--which was a lie--and then when Dean realized there really was something wrong with Sam, he prayed and Cass still didn't show. So I figure he was purposefully ignoring them both

Speaking of which, and maybe I missed it (one of the downfalls of watching while on the bus/subway is that even with the volume turned up pretty high on my earplugs, I can still miss some exposition)  why did Balthazar take all the 'special weapons', since it seemed later on that Bal was working for Cas (the whole Titanic bit)?  

It could very well be that Cas did hear Sam, but was ignoring him because the call wasn't all that urgent/necessary, yet the Staff of Moses was.  And obviously we missed a whole lot in that year that Sam was hunting w/o Dean, but it does make one wonder how a whole year could pass without Sam, even soulless, wouldn't need some help from the friendly neighborhood angel.

I presume the whole bit with the passage of the year was supposed to make us understand how attached Dean got to Lisa and Ben, but since we didn't see it, they really could have said 4 months or 6 months or even 2 for that matter, and nobody would have questioned the connection.  Heck, Dean got sufficiently attached to Lisa in a couple of days that he had the whole idea of making them part of his deal to be Michael.  So all that "year passage" did was make us wonder wtf happened with Sam during that time and why an angel war would take so long.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Hanahope said:

Speaking of which, and maybe I missed it (one of the downfalls of watching while on the bus/subway is that even with the volume turned up pretty high on my earplugs, I can still miss some exposition)  why did Balthazar take all the 'special weapons', since it seemed later on that Bal was working for Cas (the whole Titanic bit)?

Man did I feel like this plot point could've been so amazing...anyhoo, apparently Balthazar took the weapons because he could and no other reason. Apparently Cass rebelling had inspired him to rebel too. ::shrugs::

3 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

It could very well be that Cas did hear Sam, but was ignoring him because the call wasn't all that urgent/necessary, yet the Staff of Moses was.  And obviously we missed a whole lot in that year that Sam was hunting w/o Dean, but it does make one wonder how a whole year could pass without Sam, even soulless, wouldn't need some help from the friendly neighborhood angel.

I actually think it would've been a fascinating direction if had turned out that Cass couldn't hear Sam's prayers because he had no soul. That actually would've made a lot of sense to me.

[Hanahope]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Man did I feel like this plot point could've been so amazing

Like a reverse Friday the 13th (the curio shop show) or heavenly Warehouse 13 (hey.....coincidence?).

[catrox14]

15 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

"And so I knew what I had to do next. Once again, I went to Harrow Hell, to free Sam from Lucifer's cage. It was nearly impossible, but I was so full of confidence, of mission. I see now that was arrogance...Hubris...Because, of course, I hadn't truly raised Sam -- not all of him. Sometimes we're lucky enough to be given a warning. This should have been mine."

Sigh...I miss THIS kind of writing. What a beautiful monologue

[bettername2come]

Love the opening. Hey Castle Storage. Like the Castle on a hill made of 42 dogs from beginning of season 5? Intentional or are they just recycling sets? Sam and that girl had good chemistry. Poor monster lady. Sleeping with Bobby Singer is just as dangerous as sleeping with Sam Winchester, isn't it? Ah, Castiel breaking Sam's wall is awful. I hate it. Amnesiac Sam calling Dean a "male model type" is beautiful. He doesn't know Dean, but he knows Baby? That seems backward. Nice transition to Sam and Dean in the panic room. I like that he's trying to protect the woman he's traveling with from Soulless Sam, especially once it's revealed he killed her while soulless. Interesting seeing Soulless Sam be a dick to Ensouled Sam. "I'm neither stupid nor wicked." Good line, gonna use it. Crap, Bloodied Hell Sam told Sam to find Jess. 12 years and I'm still not over those two. Bye, Balthazar. No one else could work a V-neck like you did. "Get in the car, get in the car." Car flips. Well, that plan failed. Nice Castiel impression, Crowley. Cas killing an archangel is pretty badass, psycho or not. "I have no family." Literally gets stabbed in the back by a Winchester. Nice job, show. Nice try, Sam. Cas just declaring himself God is creepy, but it still feels kind of out of character. 

[Katy M]

17 hours ago, bettername2come said:

"I'm neither stupid nor wicked." Good line, gonna use it.

It's a good line, though I'm not sure how accurate it was.  I think he was being both stupid and wicked.

 

17 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Love the opening.

I do, too. Especially because it's a few minutes in before you realize it's a dream and that amnesiac Sam isn't running around for real.  

 

17 hours ago, bettername2come said:

Like the Castle on a hill made of 42 dogs from beginning of season 5? Intentional or are they just recycling sets?

I think it's intentional. I also think it's intentional that the extra walking away from the room that Sam and the girl are going to looks kind of like Bobby.  I mean, he's in the corner room.  There was no reason for anyone to pass him in the hall.

 

17 hours ago, bettername2come said:

He doesn't know Dean, but he knows Baby?

He got a deja vu kind of thing when he saw it.  I'm sure the same would have occurred had Dean been standing there at any point.

[AwesomO4000]

On 7/24/2017 at 4:06 PM, Katy M said:

He got a deja vu kind of thing when he saw it.  I'm sure the same would have occurred had Dean been standing there at any point.

I actually got the impression that he just decided/knew that kind of car was his or connected to him for some reason, not that he actually recognized the car. hmm, I think I need a rewatch. I love this episode though, so not an imposition. ; )

[RulerofallIsurvey]

This is a terrific Sam episode.  The opening fooled me again.  I was just thinking about how much ground Sam can cover with those legs and then he ran into the bar.  Oh.  

I liked the bartender girl.  She was cute, smart, and funny.  "I'm dying to know how it all turns out."  Okay, that wasn't funny.  Oh, honey.  I wish you weren't dead.  Or a figment of Sam's imagination.  

I'm sad about Ellie.  I really wish we'd found out more about her.  Wonder what kind of monster she was.  

I don't think I noticed this the other times I've watched this episode.  When Cas says "when this is all over, I will save Sam" he adds, "But only if you stand down."  So - DAYUM.  He wasn't planning on saving Sam if Dean didn't stand down.  

I like the use of the Stones "Play with Fire".  First in the room with Bobby and Dean and then playing on the car radio with Sam and the bartender and back again.  I also liked the "do you smell whiskey?"  Watching SoullessSam confront Sam was one of the best parts.  I love that Sam pulled one over on his Soulless self.  But the Sam that remembered hell was pitiful.  "I know you.  You're not strong enough" - what a sad thing to think about yourself.  Well, Soulless called him gawky and a milksap.  I guess Sam doesn't have a very high opinion of himself.  

Cas was seriously full of himself this episode.  He's really gone off the rails.  And this was before he got the purgatory souls power up.  What the heck?  Smug Cas is not a good look.   Also, Dean - you lost Sam because of Cas.  Don't say, "don't make me lose you too."  

[Katy M]

32 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Also, Dean - you lost Sam because of Cas.  Don't say, "don't make me lose you too."  

You say what you need to to the crazy all-powerful person.

[auntvi]

On 5/31/2017 at 1:47 PM, DittyDotDot said:

I actually think it would've been a fascinating direction if had turned out that Cass couldn't hear Sam's prayers because he had no soul. That actually would've made a lot of sense to me.

That's kinda what happened - Cass was ignoring Sam's prayers because Cass knew he had left Sam's soul in the cage?

[DittyDotDot]

29 minutes ago, auntvi said:

That's kinda what happened - Cass was ignoring Sam's prayers because Cass knew he had left Sam's soul in the cage?

I don't think Cass willfully ignoring Sam's prayers is the same thing as Cass not being able to hear Sam's prayers due to his soullessness. Sam's prayers weren't the only ones Cass ignored. He ignored Dean plenty as well--who had a soul--and only showed up when it suited him. So I don't think it was just that Sam's prayers weren't getting through because he didn't have a soul to power them, but that Cass was willfully ignoring Sam's prayers.

My opinion has always been Cass didn't realize Sam's soul was left in the cage until after Dean called on Cass to figure out what was wrong with Sam--this was long after Sam had stopped praying to Cass for answers. I think Cass maybe suspected something wasn't right about Sam when Sam left Dean and ran off on his own, but got distracted with the Raphael showdown and then his deal with Crowley. At that point I think he was ignoring Sam's prayers because he thought Sam wouldn't approve of what he was doing with Crowley. I also think that's part of the reason Cass specifically told Crowley to leave Dean out of it--although, I'm sure some of that was just feeling like Dean had sacrificed enough--he didn't want Dean to know he'd made a deal with a devil. Ironically, if Cass had answered Sam's prayers and showed up when Sam was first resurrected, Soulless Sam probably wouldn't have given a shit that Cass was trying to find Purgatory and gotten on board with the plan, IMO.

Edited October 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[auntvi]

17 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

So I don't think it was just that Sam's prayers weren't getting through because he didn't have a soul to power them, but that Cass was willfully ignoring Sam's prayers.

Yes, I think that Cass was willfully ignoring them both because he was caught up in the civil war and later his conspiracy with Crowley. He may have only shown up because they had found a piece of Moses' staff.  When I watched it the last time, I just wondered if Cass suspected at that time that he had screwed up and left Sam's soul. But I'll accept that he didn't realize until later.

Never mind, I was thinking about an earlier s. 6 episode.............