Romance In HTGAWM: Law & Ardor

[Milaxx]

I'm not sure it's even 10+ weeks. AK's house burned on the anniversary of the bonfire.  How long has Laurel been in the hospital? 10+ days may be closer to the truth.

[Tiger]

2 minutes ago, Milaxx said:

I'm not sure it's even 10+ weeks. AK's house burned on the anniversary of the bonfire.  How long has Laurel been in the hospital? 10+ days may be closer to the truth.

The first season started at the beginning of their 1L fall semester, and this season started at the beginning of their 2L fall semester.  Then I beleive the flashforwards during this past fall season established 9 weeks afted passed since the fall semester started

[Milaxx]

You're right,  I was counting wrong. 

[Nanrad]

On 2/3/2017 at 5:22 AM, doram said:

Well it isn't really, you know. They do state that the feelings were always there. And their connection is something that has been pointed out by outsiders from the start. 

 

Her hand was forced? How?  She knew that Frank was lying about the pregnancy, so he was definitively lying about the murder. How does Laurel even know for sure that Annalise is innocent? Because it really does seem that her only certainty is the confidence that Annalise would never hurt Wes, not anything as concrete as certainty of Frank's perjury. In this case, she's choosing Annalise over Frank. 

Personally, I believe that someone can have feelings for another person and protect them without their motivation being due to said romantic feelings. I don't believe that ever action taken when someone has feelings for another person has to because of those feelings. People are far more complicated than that and, sometimes, people take actions that are separated from how they feel. Because, IMO, it seems as if every interaction Wes and Laurel ever had is now being colored by romantic undertones that I honestly don't believe were there to begin with. I have also continuously stated and will continue to that, if the undertones have been there throughout the series, it was poorly executed. 

The series didn't start executing it correctly until 2B (which even when they did start actively selling it, the pairing perplexed me). I can buy that far better than it being there since the beginning. Even when arguing that Laurel has loved Wes longer, it's done some to diminish her other relationship in the series and I don't understand what for. Laurel and Frank were complicated, but I just not buying that she wasn't really that into him yet loved him. Other than Bonnie, everyone else never questioned the authenticity of her feelings. Hell, even Wes believed there was something still there. They call each other out on their bullshit all of the time, but Laurel wasn't really feeling Frank yet no one said nothing, yet were super observant about her and Wes (which could easily be that society tends to think men and women who are friends are really sleeping with each other--the reason that hasn't happened with Michaela and Connor is because Connor is gay).

Sure, this is one place, but even checking the history of this board, there is hardly any reference to Wes and Laurel undertones being spotted, and then in the pairing poll, more people said they had a sibling type relationship even after they slept together. 

Maybe forced was strong, but Bonnie clearly had to convince Laurel to frame Frank that much is true. Even then, I doubt she helped frame Frank with the idea that he'd spend the rest of his life in prison. Even if Laurel doubts Annalise was completely innocent when it came to Wes' death, it wasn't enough to even sell her out to the cops. Laurel doesn't jump at the opportunity to sell Frank out, but she does frame him with a long term goal in mind, especially because Annalise is a glue of sorts that holds everything together when it comes to murder cover ups 1 and 2. Furthermore, I don't even like the idea of Laurel framing Frank being tied into her feelings for him because that decision seemed to be based on something completely separate from her former romantic entanglement and contrary to her initial conversation with Nate.

[Nanrad]

When did they state this?

There are plenty of series that state a lot to stuff after the fact when there is either no clear evidence or it was poorly executed. 

Society likes to lump interracial relationships as non romantic when it comes to WOC being paired with anyone, especially non black men. There is very little criticism about BM/WW pairings or even framed as non romantic. 

--

See, I don't think she's "coolly" letting him take the heat, but rather, she has to sell it for reasons we'll later find out. What good would it do for her to agree to frame Frank and not sell it to the cops? I don't even get her 'cool' reaction to doing this because we have no idea what her reaction was during the conversation with Bonnie or her reaction after her discussion with the cops?  All we see if the moment where she does her best to convince the cops that Frank did it.

---

As mentioned in the other thread, this tends to happen overwhelmingly with BW/Non black men. BM/Non black women tend to counter this reaction at a far lower rate--almost non existent. 

[secnarf]

54 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Society likes to lump interracial relationships as non romantic when it comes to WOC being paired with anyone, especially non black men. There is very little criticism about BM/WW pairings or even framed as non romantic. 

...

As mentioned in the other thread, this tends to happen overwhelmingly with BW/Non black men. BM/Non black women tend to counter this reaction at a far lower rate--almost non existent. 

There are definitely people on the Supergirl forum who would disagree with you, and I'm sure on others as well. In the Supergirl forum, if I criticize an interracial pairing then I am accused of racism, but if I criticize other pairings between two white characters - for exactly the same reasons - that's no problem.

I disagree that Waurel criticism has anything to do with race, for the most part. Interracial couples in general have to deal with a lot of "oh I didn't realize you two were together" "oh I didn't know that was your kid" etc etc. The assumption is skewed towards couples of the same race. That doesn't mean that any/all criticism of interracial couples is rooted in racism.

From the very first scene with Eve, I knew that she was Annalise's ex. Eve is white, and for all we knew at the time, Annalise is straight (since that is very often the 'default' assumption in society until we are shown otherwise). But those factors didn't stop the chemistry between them from coming through. That little smirk of Eve's gave everything away. There are some people who disagree, but that's not necessarily a race or a sexuality issue. It might be, for some people, but I have no way of knowing if that is truly the case.

Coliver has gotten a ton of criticism, especially lately, and nobody is claiming that that is because they are an interracial couple. I would hope not, since there are plenty of other reasons to criticize their relationship!

54 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Society likes to lump interracial relationships as non romantic when it comes to WOC being paired with anyone, especially non black men. There is very little criticism about BM/WW pairings or even framed as non romantic. 

...

As mentioned in the other thread, this tends to happen overwhelmingly with BW/Non black men. BM/Non black women tend to counter this reaction at a far lower rate--almost non existent. 

There are definitely people on the Supergirl forum who would disagree with you, and I'm sure on others as well. In the Supergirl forum, if I criticize an interracial pairing then I am accused of racism, but if I criticize other pairings between two white characters - for exactly the same reasons - that's no problem.

I disagree that Waurel criticism has anything to do with race, for the most part. Interracial couples in general have to deal with a lot of "oh I didn't realize you two were together" "oh I didn't know that was your kid" etc etc. The assumption is skewed towards couples of the same race. That doesn't mean that any/all criticism of interracial couples is rooted in racism.

From the very first scene with Eve, I knew that she was Annalise's ex. Eve is white, and for all we knew at the time, Annalise is straight (since that is very often the 'default' assumption in society until we are shown otherwise). But those factors didn't stop the chemistry between them from coming through. That little smirk of Eve's gave everything away. There are some people who disagree, but that's not necessarily a race or a sexuality issue. It might be, for some people, but I have no way of knowing if that is truly the case.

Coliver has gotten a ton of criticism, especially lately, and nobody is claiming that that is because they are an interracial couple. I would hope not, since there are plenty of other reasons to criticize their relationship!

[Nanrad]

Well, that's why I said very little criticism. That doesn't mean BM/WW aren't criticized at all, but in comparison to BW/WW, relatively speaking, it's very minor. I was already thinking about the Supergirl one and I don't even watch that show, but compare it to Sleepy Hollow, The Walking Dead, the Vampire Dairies, and so forth, yeah...it happens, but it's not as common with the vice versa. With HTGAWM, it would be really weird and a change of pace for people to get upset about a BM/WW interracial relationship, which is ONE of the THREE couplings. Considering how these fictional pairings are often reflective of real life feelings, I highly doubt that only the BM/WW pairing would get criticized all while ignoring a BW/WW, which is why I don't think the criticism of Waurel as well as the dislike of Wes has anything to do with race.

Nate may not be a main character, but he is a prominent secondary character and many like him. Admittedly, he isn't in an interracial relationship, but I doubt he'd get shit if he were. People's feelings about Wes are separate from their feelings about Waurel. Many disliked Wes even before Waurel because canon and it had everything to do with the stupid shit he did while alive. I get annoyed at Connor for similar reasons, but he just cries non stop and has no accountability. 

And to be clear, my opinion on this matter is solely about fictional pairings not real pairings. Ironically, as a black woman--even as a teen, I've had many people assume that I was dating my white male friends or 'ship' me with them for various reasons. I think interracial couples deal with the kid part more than the actual coupling part unless the person is hellbent on being ignorant; many can admit two people are together, but downplay the seriousness of said relationship. It also largely depends on the location as well: north, midwest, south, west, east as to how they perceive the relationship. There was this one white male friend of mine who many assumed we were dating--no hand holding, hugging, kissing--just smiles and laughs. They were legit shocked when I told them a year later that me and that guy never dated. 

When it comes to Eve and Annalise, I think it was more a of a gender issue than race. Immediately, I also picked up their was a romantic history between them so I was surprised that many hadn't figured that out during their initial interactions. It had all of the same romantic cues as heterosexual pairings. I think if it had even been a male, people would've picked up on that.

[secnarf]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

What interracial pairing in Supergirl? I quit that show because it was so offensive but I'm quite sure that there was only Kara x Olsen from season 1.

That is the one I was referring to, but there is also Alex/Maggie.

[secnarf]

9 minutes ago, doram said:

The actress that plays Maggie is White. 

The character is Latina.

[Nanrad]

I'm not arguing that BM/WW are welcomed with open arms, I'm contended that they don't receive the type of backlash that's is being argued and said as to why people don't like Waurel. IMHO, more times than not, the validity of the relationship isn't questioned and is accepted for what it is. I'm not trying to make this a competition, but I rarely, if ever, have ever heard that type of criticism directed at BM/WW pairing and have seen it exclusively directed at BW/non black men--even the hint of a BW being a love interest gets this type of response. 

Hell, did Wes even get this type of criticism when he dated Rebecca if this is the case? People hated Rebecca because she was intolerable and they hated her influence of him. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing how Waurel is being criticized because they were an interracial relationship when this show has had so many interracial relationships that haven't been criticized--even problematic ones, such as Sam and Annalise. The criticism of them is about the fact that he used to be her therapist. 

Here are the interracial relationships that we've seen, which I can recall:

• Sam/Annalise 
• Annalise/Eve
• Wes/Rebecca
• Michaela/Asher
• Conner/Oliver
• Wes/Laurel

And of all of these interracial pairings, some of which happened longer than Waurel, there hasn't been any implication of these other relationships being criticized because they're interracial. Minus Sam, because he was super fucked up, most of Annalise's partners were said to be better off without her because 1. she set Nate up for murder and constantly used him 2. Didn't seem to want to be in an actual relationship with Eve other than making herself feel good and wanted. And, honestly, can we say that those critiques aren't valid? Rebecca was totally intolerable and Wes constantly compromised their plans and case for Rebecca. Connor and Oliver have become toxic to each other. Michaela and Asher are working their kinks out.

Why is it, of all these relationships, Waurel is the special ship that is discriminated against because it's interracial??? 

That does not compute for me. There is literally no trend of fans in this fandom being extra critical about interracial relationships besides claims that recently popped up after Wes died and this, again, is ONLY for Waurel. The more I think of reasons why this doesn't seem to be the case, the less I understand the accusation.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Nanrad

[dirtypop90]

^ Yea I don't get it either. Waurel had a bro/sis vibe to me from the very beginning and there is zero romantic chemistry between them, so I cant buy them. I blame Alfie, whom I love, because the only women he has had chemistry with on this show are viola and that 5 sec scene with aja. And yea they happen to be black but :shrugs: that's how I see it.  It's funny the fact that Waurel is an interracial couple is being blamed for their lack of believability because shonda is literally the queen of interracial couplings. all of her shows have them. hell she seems to prefer them...Nobody who has an issue with interracial pairings tunes into a Shonda show. IMO I was literally just joking to a friend that part of the reason wes and michaela only had one meaningful scene (after Wes died at that) was because this is a shonda show and they are both young and black so no dice. 

[Milaxx]

I think timing is the key. In retrospect I do see the slow build of Waurel. It felt natural last season when they went to NYC together last season and ended up kissing, I even buy them trying to deny the attraction, and Wes trying to move on by ignoring Laurel over the summer and dating Meggy. What muck's things up for me is Laurel obsessively trying locate Frank, leaving messages daily and the like. I could buy her trying to locate him for AK, but the calls her father mentioned made it feel like she was trying to contact Frank for her own need, which why? I could even see her pretending to not have feeling for Wes until after she found out he broke up with Meggy.  So for me I would have less issue if Laurel wasn't made to appear to be pining after Frank for the the first 4/5 episodes of of the first half and then tried to jam in Waurel for the last 3.  As for the paternity. I find the show has a habit of telling us the truth then showing scenes that plant seeds of doubt and I think it's intentional. Remember we were literally told that Sam killed Lila ("I bet the boyfriend did it" - AK), and that the Hapstal's ("You know they did it, it?" - Oliver) killed their parents.  

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

So for me I would have less issue if Laurel wasn't made to appear to be pining after Frank for the the first 4/5 episodes of of the first half and then tried to jam in Waurel for the last 3.

This was the problem right here and that Alfie just doesn't have that chemistry, he didn't have it with Rebecca and I didn't really see it with Laurel, especially not after that all that chemistry she had with Frank.  I died laughing when she turned around in her apt. and saw Frank and I think he looked and said, "seriously?" to her, died laughing. I should have been scared for Laurel, but the minute he looked at her with that you have got to be kidding me, you went from me to him look, I busted out laughing.

She literally looked jealous of Bonnie when she opened her damn mouth to tell Anna that Bonnie was somewhere with Frank, she couldn't take it.  No way in hell do I believe her when she tells Frank she loved Wes more than him, no way. What I believe is that she wishes that statement were true, she wishes that was how she felt because Wes was more decent of a person in her opinion than Frank and he gave her the attention and thought in a relationship that Frank couldn't/didn't give.

Edited February 5, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Nanrad]

@doram In my experience, there doesn't have to be an active WW/WM coupling to rival an interracial ship just for people to hate on it. There could be that one white person who appeared on the screen for .05 seconds that a person could write a dissertation about why this random white person is preferable over the minority. An active one may make things worse, but if someone is against interracial ships, they will find any reason and literally pair them with anyone white person. If they had a problem with it in the first place, they would've shat on Wes and Rebecca as well as the other ships, especially Michaela and Asher (because people used to be very critical of her personality back then). 

[wanderingstar]

The one thing I'll say about relationships on this show is that I mostly buy them even though they have all been rushed. The reason I buy the relationships is because this is a group of people who have been through some intense shit with each other. As a result, they really can only be themselves with each other. So it makes sense that people who may not have otherwise gotten together (e.g., Michaela and Asher) would bond over all the craziness in their lives.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Nobody who has an issue with interracial pairings tunes into a Shonda show.

Yep. I remember the early seasons of Scandal. Over on TWOP (which then continued over here) you couldn't say much of anything negative about Olitz or anything remotely positive about Mellie lest you get attacked and accused unfounded things. However, a lot of people just happened to see the Olivia and Fitz relationship as irredeemably toxic and not worth being rooted for despite the interracial aspect. I think Shonda had to do a lot of damage to Olivia and Fitz before the shippers either gave up or stopped pushing it so much in the threads. And now she's got Fitz dating another Black woman (though I suspect it's a prelude to Olivia deciding she wants him back).

With HTGAWM I don't see Shonda putting a foreseeable long-term investment in any romantic couplings except maybe Connor and Oliver. For example, Nate and Annalise eventually fell apart while and Michaela and Connor went from loathing each other to a surprising hookup to a real relationship. She has to keep surprising us and I doubt the fans who've been watching all this time expect anything less.

[Milaxx]

22 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Michaela and Connor went from loathing each other to a surprising hookup to a real relationship. She has to keep surprising us and I doubt the fans who've been watching all this time expect anything less.

Do you mean Asher?

[Keepitmoving]

Quote

With HTGAWM I don't see Shonda putting a foreseeable long-term investment in any romantic couplings except maybe Connor and Oliver.

And Connor hooked up with Oliver to get evidence at first, it wasn't some healthy love connection to start,just like all the rest of these pairings.  As in, I wonder if Oliver would still want to be with Connor, if he didn't come with the rush of "getting away with murder."  Because he clearly didn't want to hightail it to Stanford with him for a much simpler existence.
 

Quote

Nate and Annalise eventually fell apart while and Michaela and Connor went from loathing each other to a surprising hookup to a real relationship. She has to keep surprising us and I doubt the fans who've been watching all this time expect anything less.

You mean Michaela and Asher and IMO they never loathed one another. As a matter a fact, Michaela as critical as she was on his douche bag behavior she was the only one on the record to say any words of empathy for him a couple a times, especially when his father was being investigated.  And Asher never loathed Michaela at all, she seemed like the girl he could never get if he tried and now he's got her. He didn't know what do with himself when she showed up at his apt. on the night of Sam's murder. And for this show, it's who Peter Norwalk is invested in, not Shonda. Nate and Annalise do not compare with Michaela and Asher IMO, because Anna is too fucked up to be with anyone. She doesn't want to be with anyone, and hasn't since her baby boy was murdered. She doesn't think she deserves to be loved, that's not Michaela and Asher at all. Michaela has been screwed over for the first two seasons of this show in the love department, but she kept trying, enter simpleton Asher who seems to love to be claimed by a woman and...

But Anna, she told Eve to go and wished her well, but what I most remember is her telling Eve to "let herself be loved" something that Anna hasn't been able to do.  Until she is ready to allow herself to be loved and is less self-destructive, there won't be investment in her and Nate, nor her with anyone else. I suspect they'll try and tackle getting her to that kind of growth eventually, as soon as they figure out that her being that fucked up and self-destructive isn't all that entertaining for viewers any longer.  Not to mention she's the lead so...

Edited February 13, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Milaxx]

Most definitely. As much as AK may indeed love Eve and vice versa, AK is too damaged to fully commit to Eve the way she deserves to. I give AK credit for being able to admit that and let Eve go.

As for Connor & Oliver,  It's kind of a cart before the horse situation at this point. Despite all the crazy they do love each other. However since we have a least another year coming, I'd like to see a true breakup with both of them dating others. It seems like Connor has finally taken Oli off that idealized pedestal. So lets see if he likes him as part of the K5.  Sure I think Pete's endgame is Coliver, but it doesn't mean  I wouldn't mind a few twists and turns.

[Dee]

I don't know if Connor and Oliver necessarily love each other; though like you, I do believe Pete intends for Coliver to be endgame.

But as a couple they're extremely codependent, and neither of them has remotely begun to deal with the other beyond getting their immediate needs met imo.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Dee

[Coxfires]

5 hours ago, Dee said:

I don't know if Connor and Oliver necessarily love each other, though like you, I do believe Pete intends for Coliver to be endgame.

But as a couple they're extremely codependent, and neither of them has remotely begun to deal with the other beyond getting their immediate needs met imo.

I agree, and that is something a bit disappointing this season. even if Oliver breaking up came abruptly, I hoped it'd help exploring both characters individually, but it lead instead to a bit of a mess, especially regarding Connor. The character has been stuck in this state of constant self-loathing with no proaction nor character development and it is getting tideous. I'd be all for a clear breakup and seeing Michaela and Connor get more character study like Laurel had in the past season.

[DearEvette]

Honestly, I think Connor loves Oliver but in an idealized sense.  Which is interesting since Connor seduced him with ulterior motives.  Haven't re-watched all of Season 1 so I can't recall where the switch occurred --  where Connor developed real feelings for Oliver. But it felt quick and not really grounded so I am not surprised they fell apart so quickly.

I am not quite so convinced about Oliver's feelings.  It could be my bias because I am not an Oliver fan, but he seemed soooo eager to get an in with Annalise and the K5 that my spidey senses tingle.  Also, i know the deleting of the Stanford letter could be read as "Oh I am so in love with him i don't want him to go."  But it could also be read as "I haven't gotten into the real inner circle yet, and my ticket to get there can't move 3,000 miles away and I lose my chance."  It alos doesn't help that the minute he got the in, he broke up with Connor.

At this point, Oliver is a bit of a wild card.  He can go either way depending on what the show has planned for him.  He and Connor can be endgame if it turns out he is just what he appears on surface or he's outta there if he has been playing some long con on them to get close to Annalise.

Right now I can't root for anything Connor/Oliver because 1) I don't like Oliver and 2) Connor is being such a petulant asshole.

Regards Asher & Michaela, to me they are a surprise break out couple and I think their relationship could go the distance because unlike Connor/Oliver it feels like their relationship is more grounded.  I also think a lot of people have slept on the character development of Asher.  But he has shown a lot of growth in the seasons.  He was arrogant and a little dim in his rich,white privilege guy role.  He was causally racist in a "I don't have a problem with those people" way and casually homophobic in a "but I am ok with that lifestyle" way.  But I think that is a thing of the past.  I feel like he is stupid in love with Michaela and he's a huge shipper of Oliver and Connor.  The Asher of today is really different than the Asher of two seasons ago.  Sure he is still a dork, but it is a dorkiness that you smile at rather than deride.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Oops, yes, Michaela and Asher.

Quote

it's who Peter Norwalk is invested in, not Shonda. Nate and Annalise do not compare with Michaela and Asher IMO, because Anna is too fucked up to be with anyone.

Shonda is still the producer and I think some of her influence can be seen even if she perhaps isn't as directly involved as the showrunner. For example,  I'd imagine she's behind a lot of the choices made for how Annalise and Michaela are presented.

I agree that Nate and Annalise don't/didn't compare to Asher and Michaela, largely because I think Anna has mostly been using Nate. For sex (and that amazing body), for his access inside the police department, for a patsy to pin a false murder rap on, for whatever. But I think they were portrayed as a sort of a romantic couple for a while. They lived together and he even met her family. I used them as an example on that basis. Michaela and Asher seem to me to be more of classic yet unexpected pairing.

[Tiger]

11 hours ago, Dee said:

I don't know if Connor and Oliver necessarily love each other; though like you, I do believe Pete intends for Coliver to be endgame.

But as a couple they're extremely codependent, and neither of them has remotely begun to deal with the other beyond getting their immediate needs met imo.

As a Connor fan I really hope 'Coliver' is not endgame because I can't stand Oliver and think Connor deserves better.  

I also think Michaela deserves better than Asher.  I dont think he's a racist or anything else, but he is a dumbass who has yet to show any remorse for mowing down Sinclair.  

[Milaxx]

On 2/13/2017 at 2:48 AM, Dee said:

I don't know if Connor and Oliver necessarily love each other; though like you, I do believe Pete intends for Coliver to be endgame.

But as a couple they're extremely codependent, and neither of them has remotely begun to deal with the other beyond getting their immediate needs met imo.

 

On 2/13/2017 at 8:26 AM, Coxfires said:

I agree, and that is something a bit disappointing this season. even if Oliver breaking up came abruptly, I hoped it'd help exploring both characters individually, but it lead instead to a bit of a mess, especially regarding Connor. The character has been stuck in this state of constant self-loathing with no proaction nor character development and it is getting tideous. I'd be all for a clear breakup and seeing Michaela and Connor get more character study like Laurel had in the past season.

I think they do love each other but the entire romance was built on a house of cards and as mentioned what they have now is a codependant, dsyfunctional relationship. I guess the more appropriate question might be, "Is love enough?".  (It wasn't for Eve/Annalise) I too had hoped like @Coxfires said that the breakup would lead to some self exploration and growth. Unless Connor really is in therapy as depicted in the Bright!Wes flashback. that hasn't happened. I did like Connor realizing how easily Oliver lies. I'm not sure where they are going with that, but I'll take that over long suffering in silence Connor.

On 2/13/2017 at 9:09 AM, DearEvette said:

...... It alos doesn't help that the minute he got the in, he broke up with C

He didn't break up with Connor because he got the job with AK. He broke up with him because when Connor's reaction to finding out that he had lied to him was to forgive him. Oliver knew that wasn't a healthy or natural reaction. 

I hope going forward we see get more of Connor really looking at Oliver and questioning , "Is this person the one for me or is this my security blanket?" That's a new thing for this relationship. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Milaxx

[Milaxx]

10 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Shonda is still the producer and I think some of her influence can be seen even if she perhaps isn't as directly involved as the showrunner. For example,  I'd imagine she's behind a lot of the choices made for how Annalise and Michaela are presented.

Shonda is one of the executive producers. HTGAWM is under the Shondaland production company. Since Pete Nowalk is one of her mentees it's understandable that the shows would have similar traits. However, Pete is the showrunner. It's his decision as to the scripts and such.  Shonda has said as much in print.  Shonda had a hand in casting. I assume because she carries more clout than Pete, but Shonda has a several shows and projects going on. Day to day is on Pete. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Milaxx

[Joimiaroxeu]

Quote

Pete Nowalk is one of her mentors

Mentor or mentee? Per IMDb and his Wiki He didn't even get involved with Gray's Anatomy until several seasons in and it appears to be his first TV credit. Not that it matters though, I got it. Shonda's not taking the blame for whatever happens on HTGAWM. ?

[Milaxx]

Mentee. No Shonda's not taking credit for someone else's work.

[DearEvette]

14 hours ago, Milaxx said:

He didn't break u with Connor because he got the job with AK. He broke up with him because when Connor's reaction to finding out that he had lied to him was to forgive him. Oliver knew that wasn't a healthy or natural reaction.

Yeah that is the reason he gave -- which, imo, was sketchy and weak sauce. But the timing is what I am pointing out. I didn't say he broke up because of the job, but after he got it.  Which is true.  He broke up with Connor the same day.

I don't think Connor's forgiveness was an unnatural reaction.  Yeah he should have been mad about what Oliver did, but that doesn't mean that forgiving him is somehow a wrong reaction.  If anything it underlines how much more into Oliver Connor was than vice versa. The conversation would have had a much different meaning if Oliver said something like "I am sorry for what I did I just couldn't face you going so far away ..." but he didn't he turned it around and made is like Connor was the bad guy.  So yeah, Oliver's reasoning was infuriating and puzzling and the timing is suspect.

[Milaxx]

5 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I don't think Connor's forgiveness was an unnatural reaction.  Yeah he should have been mad about what Oliver did, but that doesn't mean that forgiving him is somehow a wrong reaction. 

I'm never said it was a wrong reaction, but as you yourself pointed out it most people would have been mad. 

[Milaxx]

I'm guessing we're in for another breakup between these two. Connor didn't look that thrilled at the proposal. Now that Oliver knows everything he may feel closer to Connor, but Connor is no longer viewing Oliver as this perfect saintly refuge. He's seeing him just as capable of lying as the rest of the K4. Should make for an interesting dynamic come season 4.

[helenamonster]

I really hope they don't rush into a wedding with these two. They have a TON of issues that need to be worked through and I think they might find that it's not the perfect fit they once thought it might be.

On the other hand, I would like to see what sort of high-stakes drama this show could pull off at a wedding. But the only characters I'd like to see get married at this point are Michaela and Asher, and they're not there either.

[Syler123]

Annalise is a damn good lawyer and does a pretty good job keeping her idiots out of jail, besides herself. I will say though, a lot of what happened WAS her fault. And the whole thing with Frank, that just proved that Annalise isn't a good person. She'll put anyone on the back burner to save her ass except when it came to Wes. She should have told Wes everything from the beginning. In shows they always keep secrets trying to "protect" someone when the real protection comes from the truth.

Bonnie is all messed up from her father. The way she did Asher was uncalled for. Like, get over yourself he didn't rape anyone/ and if you want to go ahead and not be with him, don't get mad when someone else does. And on top of that, wasn't she having an affair with Sam? Haha hoe. 

Frank is amazing. He's a boss and he's loyal. I loved his character. I thought he probably was on of my favorites because he was so consistent. 

Wes was Wes. I liked him in the beginning and then I started realizing a lot of all the BS that took place was because of him and Annalise covering FOR him. It was a shock for him to die, but I really wasn't sad because he almost turned his entire team into the Feds. Not cool. You deserved to die at that point. And you shot your own "step mom".

Laurel is plain stupid. Stupid little rich girl who whines about how much attention daddy didn't give her. Shut up. My father doesn't pay attention to me either but at least yours is rich. Telling Annalise about how she knew what she ordered Frank to do is what made me actually dislike her fully. 

Asher. I don't care what anyone says, I love Asher. It takes a while but in the end it's all love. He's hot, he's a freak, and he cares. I thought it was great when beat Connor's face in. The way Bonnie did him was dirty but then he found another lover that looks cute by his side but she is a c*nt. And that brings me to my next actor.

Michaela. Michaela is one of the worst characters. This wannabe bougie brat who came from nothing. She is always negative no matter what. She always acted like Asher was the "racist" one when it was really her. She always had something to say relating how rich or how white he was. He treats her like a queen and she's still a snobby b*tch. Girls like her give girls like me a very bad name. And she's beyond selfish. 

Connor is a slut and no he is not cute he has no lips. Just because you're gay and you're a male doesn't give you the right to be a ho. Even on TV. He was always so quick to blame the same lady (Annalise) who covered his a** many, many times. Which is why I am glad Asher beat his face in.

lastly, Oliver. Oh Oliver. The biggest p*ssy of them all. My second least favorite. He just toyed with Connor the entire time as if he could get better. He acted like a whiny little girl the entire time and did not belong in the crew or on the show. Your relationship shop with Connor wasn't even that serious but it was like he was so bored with his life that he just tried to create problems for no reason. Never saw what Connor or anyone saw in him. But hey, maybe he just wanted to fit in. 

[Milaxx]

We do have some info about #Coliver in season 4. Pete Nowalk talked about them in a The Hollywood Reporter interview recently:

Spoiler

"The proposal is on the table, and we'll see them talk about it in a way that I find is kind of fun and unexpected in our premiere, and will come to a mutual decision about what to do," Nowalk says. "I will say their relationship is just getting deeper, and what's really fun is for them to each be finding out things they didn't know about each other, as well as the audience is finding that out. For example, we're gonna meet one of Connor's parents, and Oliver will meet one of those parents."

Edited September 26, 2017 by Milaxx