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SueB

Crowley: I Torture All My Friends

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The King of Hell deserves a thread. Especially with Mark Sheppard now a series regular.

Note: I've made a temporary subtitle. If the group wishes a new title, make suggestions and I'll ask a mod to change if we reach consensus.

So, did Dean going off the rails really surprise Crowley? I'm not so sure. I do believe his sentimental looking at his cowboy hat pic with Dean was real. Yes there were minions in the room, buthe had no need to show them that. So I'm calling that genuine FEELS from Crowley.

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Edited by SueB
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It  almost makes me feel sad for Crowley...almost...but then again he is the bad guy you love to hate and I still like him on the show.  But seeing Dean turn on him...well the boy never learns.  I wonder if he will call Dean "Squirrel" to his face if he gets his blade back...

 

Has Crowley ever had a winning plan??  Seems like they always blow up in his face.  Is that because he really doesn't get others since he only loves himself?

 

I like the title, it fits.

Edited by 7kstar

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Crowley always wins even when he loses. He leaves something behind that harms someone else. Sure deals go sideways but he always somehow gets something out of nothing. And to that point....

 

I'm done with Crowley.

 

I mentioned this in the "Black" thread a few minutes ago. Upon rewatch I really listened to the dialogue between Crowley and Dean at the bar.

 

He said " Everything I've done for you for the past 6 months...The Mark, The Blade...midwifing you back to life, offering you a seat by my side, has been a favor.... a gift, whether you see it or you don't".

 

Crowley wasn't taking advantage of Dean's predicament, he clearly had a plan. He didn't know if it would work but his intention was to turn Dean the entire time.

 

Fuck him. As much as I love Mark Sheppard, Crowley must be punished and I mean punished in the worst ways imaginable. A lopping off of his head works for me. Ugh.

Edited by catrox14

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Crowley always wins even when he loses.

 

He said " Everything I've done for you for the past 6 months...The Mark, The Blade...midwifing you back to life, offering you a seat by my side, has been a favor.... a gift, whether you see it or you don't".

 

Crowley wasn't taking advantage of Dean's predicament, he clearly had a plan. He didn't know if it would work but his intention was to turn Dean the entire time.

 

Fuck him. As much as I love Mark Sheppard, Crowley must be punished and I mean punished in the worst ways imaginable. A lopping off of his head works for me. Ugh.

Which is why you love to hate him and yes Crowley needs payback...turning him human, having Demon Dean do something to him...oh the possibilities are endless...can he be stuck with Metatron in a cell together with neither having a way to leave, they could talk themselves to boredom and I'm fine with only seeing a glimpse of it as it fades to black.

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Granted, I haven't seen the last episode, (travel for work, so not fun!) so I might already have been proven wrong but I think Crowley has always a plan B, and in this case, that's why he helped Castiel to help him to help Sam, so Dean, while not exactly a demon, might still need that bone (I can't call it a blade, it's a jaw with teeth on it for Chuck's sake!) in order to stay alive, which means that Crowley can dangle that thing in front of Dean as long as he likes and possibly use him for his original purpose anyway.

 

He's one of the smartest villains and Mark Sheppard makes him so compelling and charming that I sometimes forget how evil he really is and what he has done over the course of the show.

 

Absolutely, Crowley always has a plan or two, or three.

 

I love that: He wins even when he loses. It's very true.

Edited by supposebly
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The discussion in the spoiler thread about whether a ~$4M/season paycheck is likely to be tempting to already-rich actors got me thinking about Crowley's SL this season. I was thinking about how, if you're making that kind of money, needy "loved ones" are probably always coming out of the woodwork. Which is why I don't have trouble buying into the storyline of Rowena coming back now that she's in trouble and Crowley is a big shot. I actually kind of like the SL! Or the premise of it, anyway.

 

Tbh, I don't think it's strange that Crowley would care about his mother, seeing as he obviously cared about his son last season. I bought it when he showed he cared about Gavin even though he hadn't seen him for hundreds of years and had been a bad father to him anyway, so I bought it when he showed he cared about Rowena even though she'd been gone for centuries, too, and had been a bad mother before that. YMMV. And I actually think Crowley is playing things fairly well -- giving Rowena enough so that it's worth her while to stick around, but withholding enough so that the well doesn't go dry and he ends up totally SOL.

 

I also actually like that him finding her completely transparent isn't enough to protect him from her.*** I mean, just because you know your feelings are fucked up doesn't mean they cease to exist or can't be used to manipulate you. Dean Winchester of all people should actually be pretty sympathetic to that, imo. Tbh since they've introduced Rowena, Crowley's relationship with Dean makes *so much* more sense to me. (IMO and YMMV for everything that follows, of course!)

 

The buttons that Rowena keeps trying to press are either that she tries to make herself look like a damsel in distress so that Crowley can play her white knight, or she tries to act very parental and authoritative, so that Crowley can play her obedient son. If those are things that Crowley wishes he could be (which imo is apparently the case), then I can absolutely see how he has a romantic, weird view of Dean in particular, because "white knight" and "obedient son" are roles that Dean *excels* at playing.

 

Also, Rowena is this con artist who can't be trusted and is always running some game or looking out for herself in one way or another -- that's actually not too far off from Dean either, imo, since he lives a lie as a matter of course, to make a living and to do his work. And he's usually up for a good time and all that, like she is. They can both turn on the charm if they want. *Except* that, unlike Rowena, Dean actually is trustworthy when it comes to looking out for the people he loves (he's not just out for himself), and he's trustworthy when it comes to giving rather than taking from his family (and he cares about giving more than he takes from the world in general), and he's trustworthy when it comes to actually fulfilling his responsibilities once he takes them on. I mean, Dean runs games on other people, but he doesn't play people in his inner circle for his own benefit. Not that he never has gotten close to that line or arguably gone over it, obviously he and Sam have had their issues, like with the text "from" Amelia that came up in that LARPing episode, or with the Gadreel posession. But imo Dean would *never* knowingly sell out his family or use them for his own benefit, and he would never up and abandon them, either. He's a scammer, but he still manages to be a good person, too. I think that Dean actually shares all of Rowena's strengths, but unlike her, he's got integrity and he's capable of loyalty/love -- and imo that actually is a big deal to Crowley, and now that Rowena's been introduced, I feel like I understand why.

 

What's bringing the Rowena/Crowley storyline down for me is mostly that I wish someone would tell the actress playing Rowena to stop being so campy. I get why the actress would decide to give a campy, scenery-chewing performance given who the character is (a con artist witch from the 1700s, and Crowley's mom, too. Crowley himself is pretty campy) but it's not working imo. If they toned it down and played that SL straight, I actually think it would be pretty fun and interesting, but they're making it too silly and it's just like....this weird Children Show About Adult Issues thing right now. Like, their scenes are ridiculous and silly and OTT like a children's show, but that SL is not really about issues that a children's show would/should tackle. It's got the same kind of tone problem that Yellow Fever did, imo, but it's even less successful.

 

***Also, how would Crowley even know what a not-terrible relationship with *anybody* looks like? His relationship with demon!Dean might legit have been the nicest, most loving relationship he's ever had LOL. His relationship with Rowena now might be shocking him in how loving and honest it is, because his baseline for "this is what relationships look like" might just be that low. Who even knows.

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I mean, just because you know your feelings are fucked up doesn't mean they cease to exist or can't be used to manipulate you.

Truth.

 

And I love your theory about why Crowley loves Dean.

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The discussion in the spoiler thread about whether a ~$4M/season paycheck is likely to be tempting to already-rich actors got me thinking about Crowley's SL this season. I was thinking about how, if you're making that kind of money, needy "loved ones" are probably always coming out of the woodwork.

 

I believe that's what Jared and Jensen make a year...I think I read their salaries are around $180,000 per episode (before their agents, managers, publicists and such take their cut). Mark Sheppard is only a series regular, not the lead and doesn't do as many episodes per year, so I think he's probably not making that much.

 

It's funny you bring this up right now, I recently watched a documentary about character actors (Mark Sheppard's papa and a couple Supernatural alumns were in it) and they talk about guest actors only getting paid like $5,000 per episode. These were guys who are well known character actors in the industry too. Since Sheppard is a series regular, I'm sure he's making more than that per episode, but I also imagine it's a far cry from $4 million per year. I have no desire to research his actual salary though.

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I have watched this show since last year and I find Crowley as a very intriguing character, mainly because he reminds me of Spike from Buffy the Vampire Slayer. For those who have never seen the show Spike is a vampire who first started the show as buffy's arch nemesis and he eventually became an ally/sometimes lover. No I'm not trying to ship Crowley/dean but their canon bromance did start as two enemies working together to bring down an even bigger enemy: Lucifer.  It just occurred to me Spike and Buffy did ally briefly together to take down angelus in season 2. Anyway Spike and Crowley both have/had an obsession with the lead which led to a damaging relationship. Both had their behavior modified by outside forces: spike had an emotion chip implanted in his brain to prevent him from harming humans while Crowley of course was given human blood injections. Spike eventually went through trials to get his soul back in order to have buffy accept him and then later sacrificed himself.  Will Crowley do the same? Will he ask the Winchesters to finish the cure? I believe its a strong possibility. Even after the last episode I still believe he could go either way, unless he does something season 8 and earlier level of evil.  What do you guys think? Has anyone else noticed this parallel? Will it have any bearing on where Crowley's story ends?  Oh, I forgot to mention, both Crowley and spike had mommy issues.

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I get where you're coming from. I hadn't seen Crowley as 'good' as Spike because Spike was never about being in charge of anything and Crowley wants to maintain control of Hell. Then again,, if he doesn't, he's dead because you can't leave an ex King of Hell hanging around. Divides loyalties. But I do love the Crowley/Dean bromance that I still think is there. I'd pay serious cash to see Crowley's FLICKR album. And I do think Crowley wants that connection with Dean. I feel cheated because we don't know how Crowley eased him thru the demon transition.

As for Mommy issues, I keep thinking of Vamp!Mom trying to sleep with Spike. Sure she was awful to him but he could rationalize the demon effects. I think Rowena is far worse to Crowley. Still, it's a different phenomenon than Daddy issues. And it does drive both characters.

BTW, I'm pretty sure Ruth is younger than Mark but she does a good job of keeping that maternal POV while remaining a HORRIBLE mother.

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{snippets} It just occurred to me Spike and Buffy did ally briefly together to take down angelus in season 2. Anyway Spike and Crowley both have/had an obsession with the lead which led to a damaging relationship. Both had their behavior modified by outside forces: spike had an emotion chip implanted in his brain to prevent him from harming humans while Crowley of course was given human blood injections. Spike eventually went through trials to get his soul back in order to have buffy accept him and then later sacrificed himself.  Will Crowley do the same? Will he ask the Winchesters to finish the cure?

 

It's hard to say for me, because Spike had a motivation we haven't yet seen from Crowley. It may have been a twisted sort of love, but Spike was generally motivated by love. Even his temporary alliance with Buffy was only partially to take down Angelus or "save the world" (despite his little motivational speech)... it was mostly to get back Drusilla. That was his main concern and motivation, and once Drusilla dumped him anyway, he was lost and without a purpose to the point of being suicidal. Spike - as he admits - is love's bitch, and once in love, he will throw himself into that role. Once his love changed to Buffy, even when it was twisted, he would do almost anything for her. Their relationship was interesting that way. Back Buffy up to protect her sister even if the world burned? ... yup, Spike would do that, no problem, because she asked him to. (And Buffy knew this, and didn't shrink from using Spike as her sometimes less than moral weapon if the need arose.)

 

I can't see Crowley having that kind of loyalty. He may "like" someone, but his sense of self-preservation is a much bigger priority. And as SueB said above (and I quoted below), Crowley likes being in charge. Spike doesn't really care about that. Crowley also likes to "stack the deck" so to speak. He'd much rather make sure that he has a good chance of winning before he goes into something. To Spike, that's kind of boring. He gets a thrill out of taking a chance.

 

Two very different approaches as to how they live their "lives."

 

 

I get where you're coming from. I hadn't seen Crowley as 'good' as Spike because Spike was never about being in charge of anything and Crowley wants to maintain control of Hell.

 

Agreed. Spike was generally happier if he had someone to back, believe in, and more importantly: to focus on. In general, he got too distracted when scheming on his own. His own plans were usually smart, but he would "get bored" and end up rushing in too early without someone else to focus his energy on. This often lead to his plans not working in the execution. Crowley's not like that. He's good at waiting and focusing on details. He's also good at planning for himself and sticking to his plans - which generally work. When his plans don't work as intended, it's generally because he's been played. And that usually happens when he underestimates the potential underhandedness and/or intelligence of his "partners," and not because he wasn't being cautious and thorough.

 

So in my opinion, Crowley in general has a very different modus operandi from Spike.

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I can't contribute to the Spike comparison because I barely made it through Buffy once and he was mostly comic relief on Angel.

 

As to Crowley, I don't like how his mommy issues make him look so human. I don't care if he still harbors feelings of abandonment from hundreds of earth years and thousands of hell years ago. I could barely get on board with his son issues fanwanking that there was still some human blood addiction issues to be worked out. Barely.

 

At this point, I want him back to be an opportunistic and smartass hell spawn and king of hell who "is always the problem" (Copyright Meg) and not some overgrown boy who has boyfriend issues and mommy issues who apparently has forgotten who he has been in the last hundreds of years. At this point, putting him out of his misery will be a kindness and it won't feel very good.

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I can't contribute to the Spike comparison because I barely made it through Buffy once and he was mostly comic relief on Angel.

 

As to Crowley, I don't like how his mommy issues make him look so human. I don't care if he still harbors feelings of abandonment from hundreds of earth years and thousands of hell years ago. I could barely get on board with his son issues fanwanking that there was still some human blood addiction issues to be worked out. Barely.

 

At this point, I want him back to be an opportunistic and smartass hell spawn and king of hell who "is always the problem" (Copyright Meg) and not some overgrown boy who has boyfriend issues and mommy issues who apparently has forgotten who he has been in the last hundreds of years. At this point, putting him out of his misery will be a kindness and it won't feel very good.

Hee.  I must admire your post (even if I don't want the same).  It's a Meg-worthy sentiment (and I adore Meg, which means that's a compliment).  

 

I know adoring Meg, loving Crowley...there's something wrong here.  Oh yes, it's Supernatural where 'up is down and down is sideways' (Dean).

 

Crowley's Mommy issue is the same IMO as Dean's Daddy issue -- abandonment and lack of approval.  Of course Crowley's is actually much worse.  She LITERALLY tried to sell him and then I think she DID sell him to some child labor place so she could take off.  And she's done nothing but berate him (after the obvious manipulation was called out).  She's much worse than John.  And yet surprisingly, I think she actually has some feelings for him.  Those tears at the end of Execution Song were real IMO.  Now maybe it's disappointment that he can't help. Maybe it's the parental ego (where the child is a reflection of you).  IDK.  I just thought that her anger and tears were about the first genuine thing we've seen out of Rowena since she showed up.  I believe her end-game was to manipulate Crowley into doing as she wants (because his power really does outmatch hers).  

 

And I think Crowley knows all this.  I'm anxious to see the continued chess match between the two.  

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/begin rant

I just couldn't care less about Crowley and Rowena's issues. I don't care that Crowley had a bad childhood. I want Crowley back to being a snarky, formidable foe because I want that mother fucker to pay dearly and painfully for what he did to Dean. I love Mark Sheppard and love his work as Crowley but nope, I don't like this "being human" Crowley.

I hate that they gave Crowley any humanity again because what is the point? Are they trying to redeem Crowley and make him an anti-hero if he saves Deans life?

Do they want me to have "feelings" about him? Why? So I might feel sorry and see that somehow he's not that bad? That he was just misunderstood and was just sad and lonely and wanted companion to rule Hell with and have shenanigans so I'll just ignore or forget all the manipulations he implemented to turn Dean into a gods damned Demon? Even as I enjoyed demon! Dean because of Jensen's work, fuck Crowley sideways with a pine cone and no lube, for what he did. He needs to die a miserable and painful death. Oh and maybe take away his ability to speak like Cain did so all he can do is be forced to listen to Rowena remind him of his failures for all eternity.

Or was to make me think that if Dean fell for Crowley manipulations that Dean probably was never a good man to begin with? Or that he was/is no better than Crowley? That Deans life and efforts to save people and hunt things meant nothing because deep down Dean is just the same as Crowley because they issues with mommy and daddy? Well Fuck that. Nope.

/end rant

Edited by catrox14
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I think Dean affected Crowley.  So...Sam can't kill him, Cas can't kill him, and Crowley can't kill him.  Think of it as a testament of Dean's ability to affect others.....

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My issue with Crowley's smidgeon of humanity is, even when he was fully human, it doesn't seem like he had very much humanity. So, I just don't buy he's all torn up about his kid or his mommy or his just wanting to have a friend. What I do buy is that he's torn up he's not a full-on demon anymore. Which I think is the whole point of Rowena--I assume he's not going to ask anyone to cure him, but now will actively seek out his demonity to regain control of Hell and himself and hopefully become an even bigger foe. And all because Rowena told him what a disappointing twit he currently was.

 

So, it's not that I don't get what they're trying to do with Crowley right now, but I guess just I don't care for Crying-In-His-Beer Crowley. He's boring, IMO. Personally, I think Crowley's best when he knows he's the smartest person, but no one even notices he's in the room. So, here's hoping he gets back to running his own games behind everyone's back soon.

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I never thought Crowley made a good antagonist. He never made sense to me as a demon, he was never scary, imo, and I thought the stuff where he was in the car trunk, etc etc etc, was pathetic and boring. The whole idea of there being a "king of hell" at all irritates the shit out of me, but apparently, ~hierarchy~ within the supernatural world is the name of the game nowadays on this show. So anyway, since I have absolutely zero attachment to who Crowley has been for years, I really don't mind the change.

 

I prefer the issues with his mom or son to the weird "bromance" they were trying to cook up between him and Dean. It makes more sense to me that he'd care about his kid or his mom, even 300 years later, than that he'd care about Dean. I've tried to understand that SL/relationship to the best of my abilities but still doesn't make sense if Crowley is 100% demon. Just like virtually *no* storylines make sense if he's 100% demon, because demons are relentlessly terrible and Crowley is supposedly the *king* of them (so he could have just killed Dean and tortured his soul in Hell himself, if all he'd wanted was for him to become a demon, etc etc etc).

 

So anyway, fine, bring on the humanity if it means that he'll finally become somewhat more coherent as a character, and won't be so "over-powered" compared to the other characters that how he relates to them and how weak he is toward them doesn't make sense. I think that they're likely to cure him because it would be easier than killing him, not because he wants it. I think he would NOT want it at all, because humans are weak and powerless compared to demons (but then, that's also why they *should* cure him if they can't kill him imo).

 

It doesn't bother me at all that Crowley was an asshole when he was alive, but that he still had (has?) human feelings. He wasn't even that much of an asshole back then, far as I can tell, he just sold his soul for some dick and wasn't the best father. That doesn't even sound to me like he didn't have much humanity, it sounds to me like he was an inept loser who had no idea what he was doing when he was a human being. In hindsight, I guess that makes sense -- he really only came into his own once he was dead and in his afterlife, lol.

Edited by rue721

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I would love to see an episode focusing on his back story.  Are we even sure that was the deal for his soul?  I mean how much of what we know of Crowley is even the truth? Oh and from what I've seen in cons Mark Shepard is no help at all, the brat! :)

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I would love to see an episode focusing on his back story.  Are we even sure that was the deal for his soul?  I mean how much of what we know of Crowley is even the truth?

 

This is a good point. Maybe it's like Garak (Star Trek: DS9) says about the stories from his past...

 

Garak: It's all true, Doctor.

Bashir: Even the lies?

Garak: Especially the lies.

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Oh god, yes, Tippi. The master crossroads deal maker, the demon who navigated through the chaos of the apocalypse to become King of Hell, surely this guy has to setting Rowena up for something. If Crowley is playing straight with his "dearest Mumsie", then he's just hopeless. The king (of hell) is dead, long live the idiot with crippling mommy issues.

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I kinda like how casually he had his demons grab the leader of the 'Grand Coven' and the. Handed this centuries old witch to his mother for her amusement. Rowena needs to take note at his display of power with no f*cks to give.

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I don't know, as they talked about at length, the Grand Coven hasn't been that grand in a long while.

 

But yes, I hope, although I feel a bit delusional about this, Crowley might have something planned. I'm just not sure what and why.

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I am bumping up this topic for two reasons:

1."I can't see Crowley having that kind of loyalty. He may "like" someone, but his sense of self-preservation is a much bigger priority." I was scrolling through this discussion when this quote by awesome04000 caught my eye because it reminded me of one of my favorite crowley scenes in season 9.  Right before Crowley possessed sam in order to save him from Gadreel he told dean that if he saw Gadreel he would run and that he wasn't dying for them.  He could have ran.  He could have left sam and blinked right out of that warehouse.  The irons were off, who could have stopped him? Cas, maybe. But he didn't.   He made sure that Sam knew he wasn't responsible for Kevin's death even though it wasted time. Then when he was confronted by Gadreel he did not run even though for all he knew Gadreel would/could have mopped the floor with him. Was it out of loyalty to the winchesters? Was it because Gadreel called him a coward? Or was it because of his long con-even though the details of his trip in sam's head were never mentioned by Sam(that we know of) or by Crowley except the "I'm fine" remark?

2. One theory I have for season 11 was what if in addition to curing dean the spell also somehow inadvertently turned crowley human? The book of the damned susposedly cured any kind of damnation there was, so why not? Would you like this plot twist? What would that mean for him and his relationship with team free will? That is if he survives the first act of the next season.

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ITA about Crowley being more loyal than he's given credit for.

As for being human, he still has a demon with the eyes and powers and smoking in and out. But I do think he's tainted with humanity.

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I know he is a demon now but I think the following season could start with him being cured completely by Rowena.  Also that scene in Road Trip between him and sam doesn't get talked about enough and even after that scene in dark dynasty when he came 'back' I don't think he is full on evil again and I wont think so until kills innocent people like he did in season 8.  

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Sam has REALLY written him off, which is kinda surprising as he's usually the one to be more lenient.  But in addition to a ton of no-names he killed, he killed Sarah/Tommy/Jenny (the people Sam and Dean saved) and then he got Dean hooked on the Mark.  So... I can see where the complete certainty that "Crowley must die".  Then  again, maybe Meg subliminally planted that in his brain when she was visiting for a week.  And note, BTW, he actually TALKED to Meg and Meg made Sam KILL a hunter.  

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yeah sam has written him off but I also wonder how much of that isn't self hatred. Yeah, Crowley manipulated Dean into getting the Mark but what put Dean in that position in the first place?  They barely touched on it this season. 

Also, during that scene in Dark Dynasty  much of crowley's speech was past tense.  Did he really still enjoy it as he was saying it or was it a tough front? Like as if he was saying "fine, you want me to be the bad guy? fine, lets be bad!"

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I just think Crowley finally realized that being "good" hadn't gotten him anywhere...might as well be "bad".

 

Sam totally wants him dead for so many reasons, but I'd guess most of that was because Crowley held Dean's hand when he was a demon. I think it's a combination of self loathing, revenge and jealousy.

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Yeah but is he really "bad" now? and yeah I can see the self loathing and jealousy towards crowley. Look how Sam treated Benny and the vampire actually helped dean!

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Crowley's complicated. The speech Sam gave when he was trying to kill him? TOTALLY warranted.  And yet I still want him around.  First, he literally IS the Devil you know.  He's self-centered but he has a set of rules he lives by.  He's not foaming at the mouth murder-your-face-off crazy. I think the SPN universe NEEDS a Hell, and Crowley is the best option thus far for ruling it.  Better than Abaddon, Lucifer, YED, Lillith.  His big scheme for world domination (take over Purgatory), turned out poorly.  Right now, he seems to be content to get souls the old fashioned way.  Not great, BTW, he still tricks people into selling their soul, but he's not going for a massive soul grab anymore.  So... he's pretty much status quo/natural order-ish.  And he's stopped trying to kill the Winchesters because he's figured out it never works out in the SPN universe.  He's immortal, unless they become immortal, he can wait them out. 

 

But I also think he LIKES them.  Well, he's pissed at Moose right now, but I bet he doesn't actually begrudge him all that much.  Eggs, omelettes.  He knows he's pissed Sam off and he knows Sam blames him for what happened to Dean.  He probably feels Sam OWES him for Dean being relatively sane during the demon transition, for giving Cas angel grace, and for bringing the First Blade to help kill Cain.  OTOH, Crowley ALWAYS feels under-appreciated.  Mommy issues, don't cha' know.  But he likes Dean.  And although Dean lied to him, he also was a pretty good Dr Phil.  Dean generally lives by a code too.  He keeps his deals.  So... who knows what's in Crowley's head.  I just think it's complicated. 

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Yeah but is he really "bad" now? and yeah I can see the self loathing and jealousy towards crowley. Look how Sam treated Benny and the vampire actually helped dean!

Sam's reactions to Benny always felt out of character to me as it came from nowhere and not the way Sam normally reacted.  Now Crowley, I totally get why Sam wants him dead, he killed Sarah and he had promised he would keep her safe.

 

Crowley also stated when he turned Dean into the Demon that he was bored.  Bored of the same old stuff, and I think the only ones that give him a new way of seeing things is Dean and Sam.  But especially Dean.  I think at first he was more interested in Sam, but tired of him. 

 

Then when Dean presented the perfect opportunity, I think he really liked what he got.  It felt new and fun.  Plus he is smart and realizes that whoever tries to kill the Winchester's winds up dead.  Crowley loves living way more than dying.

 

Somehow I think Crowley will live through the Cass situation but how it will play out not sure yet.

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Yeah but is he really "bad" now?

 

I don't know. Crowley hasn't really seemed all that "bad" to me since S6. There was a bit towards the end of S8 where I was totally saying "no that's how the King of Hell should act." But since they tried to cure him, he hasn't had much of a bite. I doubt he's really all that bad right now, but I think he's given up the idea that he can be good.

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IMO, Crowley is neither good nor bad: he's amoral. He does whatever benefits Crowley. He is amused by and fond of (in a way) the Winchesters, and has a healthy dollop of respect for their abilities, but if something comes up that is to *his* advantage that would cross them, he'd do it in a blind second.

I also think the office of "King" is a helluva lot more boring than he thought it would be. Lots of administrivia and bureaucracy. Having Abbadon around to force him back into scheming and manipulating people and demons--he liked that. And he got a real kick out of corrupting Cas and trying to find Purgatory. He's a case of "be careful what you wish for, you might actually get it."

So. Him being amoral makes him a perfect colleague for The Darkness...

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I'm not saying that crowley didn't deserve at least an attempt on his life.  He has done more than Meg and I thought she should have been killed before season 8. I guess well have to see how he gets out of danger with Cass : whether or not he kills him or injure him. (he has to have an angel blade on him) Or if he some how manages to save cas and himself.  While I am thinking of what else I want to say here is a Crowley tribute video I found.

 

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I just think Crowley finally realized that being "good" hadn't gotten him anywhere...might as well be "bad".

 

Sam totally wants him dead for so many reasons, but I'd guess most of that was because Crowley held Dean's hand when he was a demon. I think it's a combination of self loathing, revenge and jealousy.

 

I think it goes back even farther than that. It is interesting, because for Sam, Crowley really is his exception... someone he isn't ever going to forgive. And I think it actually goes all the way back to the beginning. It's like Sam was intent on Crowley as his mortal enemy from the start. Even after Crowley gave them the Colt, the first thing Sam tried to do was kill him. It was like he took one look at Crowley and he just knew. And then when the Colt didn't work? Well, then Crowley was really on Sam's shit list. I don't think he believed that Crowley didn't know - or at least suspect - that the Colt wouldn't work. And I think that Sam puts much of Ellen and Jo's death on Crowley because of it. If I remember correctly, whenever they met after that in season 5, Sam almost immediately tried to kill him. (Like in "the Devil You Know").

 

Sam's reactions to Benny always felt out of character to me as it came from nowhere and not the way Sam normally reacted.  Now Crowley, I totally get why Sam wants him dead, he killed Sarah and he had promised he would keep her safe.

 

I completely agree on both counts. In Sam's mind, Crowley entirely hit below the belt in a really personal way when he killed Sarah. If there had been any wavering at all on Sam maybe forgiving or at least tolerating Crowley, Crowley killing Sarah threw that out the window. What happened with Dean when he was a demon then ran it over into cement with a steamroller.

 

I think at first he was more interested in Sam, but tired of him. 

 

I'm some ways I'm annoyed that Crowley's association with Sam was shifted over to Dean. Crowley was one of the few recurring characters in recent seasons that had been more associated with Sam whereas Dean had Castiel, Charlie, Frank, Benny, Bobby, and to an extent Kevin. For Sam there was Amelia, but that wasn't extactly a plus. Once Crowley was shifted over to being more associated with Dean, too, the only recurring character left more associated with Sam was Jodi Mills, and even with her last appearance that was downplayed. I missed the Sam / Crowley interaction, and wished we could've seen more of it than the Sam tries to kill Crowley and fails scene.

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I think that's a compliment, because everyone knows that Rocky (Squirrel) is the smart one of the duo... I also think Sam will likely get banished from Crowley's phone after the last thing Sam pulled when he called hm.

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I think that's a compliment, because everyone knows that Rocky (Squirrel) is the smart one of the duo... I also think Sam will likely get banished from Crowley's phone after the last thing Sam pulled when he called hm.

I don't know if he'll banish him from the phone (too useful), but I think that after Sam tried to kill him so coldly, Crowley may have FINALLY got the message "he's jut not into you."  I remember how much he was seeking Sam's approval in Blade Runners.  I thought it might be a ruse, but nope... Crowley really WAS (as far as I can tell) trying to get Sam to see him as valuable.  And then Sam lobbied for Dean to kill him.  So, that was the first "nope" for Crowley.  Even after that, he had fun tormenting Sam and taking away his brother.  But then Sam was all cold-blooded again what with the hex bag and all.  So...Crowley is going to be staying away from Sam or forcing Sam to ask him for help.  Something.  But he's not playing with Sam anymore ... he's no fun (in a Crowley POV). 

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I think it goes back even farther than that. It is interesting, because for Sam, Crowley really is his exception... someone he isn't ever going to forgive. And I think it actually goes all the way back to the beginning. It's like Sam was intent on Crowley as his mortal enemy from the start. Even after Crowley gave them the Colt, the first thing Sam tried to do was kill him. It was like he took one look at Crowley and he just knew. And then when the Colt didn't work? Well, then Crowley was really on Sam's shit list. I don't think he believed that Crowley didn't know - or at least suspect - that the Colt wouldn't work. And I think that Sam puts much of Ellen and Jo's death on Crowley because of it. If I remember correctly, whenever they met after that in season 5, Sam almost immediately tried to kill him. (Like in "the Devil You Know").

 

I always took that as more that Sam was never going to go in with a demon again after Ruby and not that it was Crowley personally. I'm thinking S6 was when the Crowley-as-a-personal-problem idea started to take hold, but he still seemed perfectly willing to work with him in S7. And, even though in S8 Crowley was killing people they saved, I kinda thought that Sam felt like they were somewhat even after he tried to cure him and then left him locked up in the dungeon for months. I seriously think Crowley became his personal mission this season after Dean started declining again. I kinda saw it as, if he couldn't help save Dean then he was going to take out the thing that made Dean this way. 

 

I still hold the opinion that Crowley chose Dean because it was a personal screw you to Sam. So, I'd say their association is pretty even.

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I still hold the opinion that Crowley chose Dean because it was a personal screw you to Sam. So, I'd say their association is pretty even.

Absolutely. He went after Dean because Sam rejected him IMO. 

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IA that Crowley went after Dean to mess with Sam.  I don't think he thought much of Dean until they started having fun together as Demon's.  Then it was like, I like having someone to go do things together because being alone all the time sucks.

 

He may have a weak spot for Dean now, but that may be over too since Dean gave the weapon back to Cas.  I don't doubt for a second that he will use Dean and Sam if it helps his cause but the only card left once he escapes Cas of course, is to torment the boys but leave them alive...because he likes living more than anything.

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He may have a weak spot for Dean now, but that may be over too since Dean gave the weapon back to Cas.  I don't doubt for a second that he will use Dean and Sam if it helps his cause but the only card left once he escapes Cas of course, is to torment the boys but leave them alive...because he likes living more than anything.

I think Dean providing the Mommy advice kinda means Dean's back to being his bestie (in his mind).  And honestly, Dean was honest about using him.  He TOLD him he lied.  He didn't have to.  This is sortof weirdly okay IMO with Crowley's moral code.  Such as it is.  

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Crowley's a survivor. He'd turn around and ally with God if it he had to. He'd ally with Malibu Barbie if push came to shove. The dangling Winchester on again/off again alliance is hands down one of the smartest things he's done. Use the Winchesters. Hide behind them. And if they go down in the final battle against whoever so much the better. Win/win for Crowley!

So assuming he survives Cas I see him teaming up with Moose and Squirrel (does this make Cas Dudley Do-right?) against Rowena and the Darkness.

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I agree, mertensia, and that is what I meant by my comment from way above that Crowley didn't have "that kind of loyalty."  The discussion was comparing and contrasting Crowley and Spike and their associations with the good guys. My point was that Spike entirely would throw himself on the grenade for whoever he was loyal to at the time - usually a strong woman - but Crowley... I think he's more of a survivor than that as you said. And because we haven't seen him have that kind of devotion to one person yet, and I don't know if he's capable of it.

 

If any demon was like Spike in my opinion - and I should have thought of this for the discussion above - that would've been Meg. Meg chooses a cause / individual to champion for - Azazel, Lucifer, Castiel - and she's all in. Also similar to Spike, she seems to do better if she has that cause to champion / fight for, but be rather adrift without such a cause. Crowley, on the other hand, is perfectly fine with making up his own causes and schemes, and in fact when he does, it often spells trouble for everyone in his way.

 

So I agree with you in that Crowley will team up with anyone if push came to shove - which explains his rather foolhardy alliance with Raphael, because ouch that was a baaaaad idea.

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